Thinking Sideways: Joseph Newton Chandler III

been practicing for weeks. That's goods. Actually, yeah, probably actually, Today we're going to talk about a mystery that was suggested in um May of last year by Katrina or Katerina I'm not sure how I think it's Katrina to via email, so thanks. We've had a couple other suggestions of this since then, but that was the big one. It was the first one, big one, first one. Whatever. Anyways, today we're going to talk about Joseph Newton Chandler the

Third ready that real name. Sorry, let's do the overview first on about July two, maybe July not quite true, which Joseph Newton Chandler the Third shot himself in the head with a thirty eight caliber Charter Arms handgun. It's like a little revolver. This then five shooter. Yeah. About a week later police arrived to investigate the death because the other tenants in the apartment complex that it smelled, and the landlord's just called the cops. It was the

hottest days of the year that year. One of those jobs you just don't want. Yeah, pretty much. I knew somebody here had had a daughter who was obnoxious and anti social. She got a job doing with one of those cleanup crews you know. Paid. Well, yeah, I'm sure it does. Requires a strong stomach, that's really all it requires. Yeah, I didn't require a huge skill set, but they paid you a lot. Yeah. So the police arrive and it's

they deem it to be a totally normal suicide. They ran his dental records to confirm that it was in fact Joseph Newton Chandler. The third donal records matched. This was in Cleveland, Ohio. Pretty much done. Yeah, well okay, so maybe not. They did cremate the body. Shortly after that. They did an autopsy and then cremated the body, which is which is well, it's normal, normal procedure and this yeah, there was there was nothing initially to indicate anything others.

So the person who was named as his will executor hired a probate lawyer and they start to go through Chandler's estate and and find out that actually this is the second time that Joseph Chandler the Third had died. The first was in a car accident in when he was eight years old. Yeah, so the mystery is who was Joseph Newton Chandler the third, Mark two Mark the more recent one? Yeah, so time for theories, right, was not doing anything with that name? So what the hell? Yeah,

why not pick it? May as well just use it, just kidding, not theories yet, the probate lawyers are trying to place this two dollar legacy, which isn't nothing. I did the conversion even I mean, you know it was only fifteen is years ago, but it did the conversion. It's more than a hundred thousand dollars in today's money,

and that's not nothing. When they started calling Chandlers, that all of the Chandlers that they could find in the East kind of where Chandler's mom was from, they quickly found out that Joey, the original Joseph Noon Chandler the Third had died in a car accident on December twenty one with his parents in Texas on Highway US Highway eighty two. That's a terrible Christmas. Yeah. They were on their way to spend Christmas with the extended family, with

his father's extended family. UM, and they there's no details really about I've read the news articles from the local papers at the time, and there's not really any It doesn't say what happened. Though it was a tragedy, it wasn't extensively covered. So all three of them died and they were all buried in Texas. That would I mean, that would make Joey's identity We're gonna call original Joey,

the original Joseph nowon Chandler. Yeah, we're gonna call him Joey because that's a lot of people referred him as that. UM and then Joseph noon Chandler the third will probably call Chandler. I might accidentally call him joe every once in a while, because you know, there's no I'm not dead. Yeah, I'm not quite dead, not quite yet. Yeah. Anyway, it would make Joey a pretty good target for identity theft. You know, his parents are dead, he doesn't seem to

have any close family relatives anything like that. So if somebody were suddenly to start being this person who knows, there's no parents to look up or anything like, oh yeah, no, there's there's nobody to catch it easily. So at this point in the case are our new case, not our old case, our two thousand two case. The U S. Marshals take over, as they do for a lot of

cases like this. So let's go back a little bit to talk about Joey's life and then talk about how Joseph Chandler, the third Chandler became b Yeah Chandler Bank, how Chandler became Joey basically does that work? That works? Okay? Joey was born on March eleven, nineteen seven, two parents Ellen Chandler and Joseph Newton Chandler Jr. In the In the United States of America's Social Security numbers assigned you

at birth. We know this, but it occurs to me that people who don't live here might not know that. But this didn't really start in earnest until nineteen thirty six was when I think the first Social Security number was assigned, and then the cards weren't issued until you were an adult and not continued until the seventies or something like that. So Joey would have never had a Social Security card, and it's likely that his birth certificate was somewhere at his parents house and just kind of

got tossed. Yeah, I mean, his parents belonging. He's probably would have been somebody would have taken that. And then of course it just moves, and I mean it may it may have just been burned or I mean, you know, it could have just been gotten rid of because he died. You know, he is a certificate of birth so wide, you know, you shouldn't need that birth certificate anymore, and

there's nobody interest to keep it these days. Obviously, you need your Social Security number to prove the your citizen, and you need your car. A lot of employers will require that you bring your actual cards what we can see it. Um. But again in those days, that was not the case. And you can get a replacement Social Security card, and you can get a replacement birth certificate these days, but you have to go through a lot of stuff to get it these days. Process. No, it's not.

Several decades ago, it was actually pretty easy. Yeah, it turns out have we ever talked about. Joe might remember this. Back in the day when you used to be able to eat, buy a wallet and it would have a fake Social Security card in it. Does this bring a bell to you at all? So it was it was a thing to just be like and you could put

your social Security card in here, no big deal. And it was obviously not a real social Security card, but it had a social Security number on it, and it what it was is it was the secretary at the office of the company that manufactured the wallets. So security numbers weren't that important of a thing, so they used her social security numbering who would actually be dumb enough to try to use this thing? And for decades people were using that as their actually security number, if I

remember right. She had to eventually get a new one because it was just so out of control. That's insane, that's that's thing to do. It's just one of those weird things nobody really cares about. These are not important and then just backfired. Yeah, well, it's relatively easy to get a new Social Security card, not a number, but a card these days. I know because I looked into it because I thought I lost mine. Turns out my

parents had it. Don't worry. But really you can as long as you're not getting I think it was you can get ten a year or something like that, some absurd number a year. I don't know. Maybe I mean this. I'm just doing this from memory. But as a US citizen who has a passport, all I would have to do is take my passport and they would say, oh, yeah,

that's you. Yeah, great, no problem that. Obviously it's not the case then, so are to become someone else, you have to have their Social Security card and their birth certificate pretty much, and Chandler had both of these things. Now, we talked about this a lot, so I'm just gonna go ahead and like bite the bullet and talk a little bit about who can get vital records is what they call it. It's a birth certificates, original or certified

copies of birth certificates or death certificates. And and you're going to reference organs specifically in this varies from it says, I can't imagine it varies. I really can't imagine it varies that much. Actually, probably varies from state to state. I just I can't. I mean, this seems totally logical to me, and I don't know why anybody would do it any other way, but he and I'm sure that in another state because I've seen things like this, like, oh,

it's going to be that. I don't know, it's the same, Okay, Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. Yeah. So within the first hundred years following the date of birth, those records are totally restricted, which makes sense, right, yeah, because probably somebody isn't going to live past a undred although these days. Yeah, So if you are the person named on the record and your fifteen years are older, you can order a certified

copy of a vital record and explain vital record. Again, it's a birth certificate or a death certificate, and I think there's I think there's like two other ones. But it has to do with your your status as a existing being. No, it's not like marriage certificates are a different thing. Your husband or wife or domestic partner who is registered by the state can order a vital record on you. A child, a parent, a step parent can

order something on you. Uh well, steparent until you're eighteen can order a vild vital record, and your brother or sister, grandparents, grandchild, legal guardian, legal representative, authorized representative or government agency conducting official duties that get one. I know it's surprisingly a lot, there's a lot, but it's also it's a good list,

I think. I mean, you know, there's definitely most eventualities. Yeah, it does open some stuff up, but you know, hey, when ordering a birth birth certificate, obviously you have to say what your relationship is. You have to be able to prove that it's you. But these are all things that you have to do now. Back then, I think it was as easy as writing a letter. If you had someone's Social Security number, for instance, you just write a letter and say this is my also Security number,

this is me. I need a certified copy of my thing. And it was taking it face ut taken face yeah exactly. And then I know that that was true in the seventies and this is now becoming relevant. We're off our little side path, here we go. Chandler requested Joey's birth certificate in nine as well as a Social Security card. It would be the first social Security card that Joseph Newton Chandler. The third was issued, since he died when

he eight, he didn't have one yet anyway. He wrote from Rapid City, South Dakota, which is where the both documents were mailed to. Kind of a shock behind a house, But it seems most likely to everybody who's investigated the case that he didn't actually ever live there, that he just checked the mailbox frequently, that it was kind of you know, nobody was really in there. Yeah, yeah, really smart. He moved to least East Lake, Ohio right after that.

And a website that doesn't exist anymore outside of the way Back Machine, so you can see it on the way Back Machine. Hopefully we'll post a link to it, because that's pretty good website. It's called crime shadows dot com. They reported that they did a check on when Chandler ordered the documents, and they said that it had happened that actually the Social Security card had been issued in nineteen seventy three. I think you can probably chalk it

up to you like crappy handwriting or smudge typewriter. I mean, three and eight are really close. If you yeah, if you look at I mean we do this all the time. We look at old photocopied typewritten documents that have been photocopied a half dozen times. They degrade in a three starts to look like an eight eight starts to look exactly. So I don't know, but I don't. I mean, it would be great to know for sure, But barring going to see those documents in person, the original documents, I

don't think we all know. So I'm happy to stick with seventy eight? Are you guys happy to stick with? So we'll say that Chandler became Joey in nine. And I'm just now realizing how much like a friend's episode this sounds like I was not making reference for no reasons. Sorry, guys, Sorry,

So where's Monica? She's coming? Don't okay? Investigators found that Chandler had probably lived in California for a time, maybe working with the U. S. Navy, and then he moved to Cleveland in nineteen seventy nine, and then he moved into his last apartment in nineteen eighties six in East Lake, Ohio. I've never seen this clarified. How do they determine where he lived? Like, I've never seen it specified. I can

tell you actually the answer to that question. They it's on his job applications and his rental applications, so it's just supplied from him. Not necessarily true. We don't know that there's any truth to it based on a man who was living under assumed identity for twenty seven years. Okay, that makes me feel much better because I wondered if it was something like that, but I never caught it.

I think that his Cleveland in seventy nine is documented because they think that's where he was working his first job as an electrical engineer, and then his moved to when he moved to East Lake, that was also documented, But his time in California is not document meanted. In fact, the company that he listed working for that was Contractors for the U. S. Navy, had no record of him ever working there. But again, he could have been working under a different name. It's possible. I don't really know.

It could be a completely false lead. Also, frankly, I'm surprised that he got a job with putting a job that he like, you know, the job previous to his, and they didn't even bother calling them. But okay, it's seventies, but it's an electrical engineer. You would kind of want to know that that person knows what they're doing, wouldn't you. But it's the seventies and it's an era where again,

you take things that people say it face now. And if a guy says I know how to do this, and you ask him some questions and he competently answers them, you believe him. Yeah. And also, they don't necessarily call all your references. They might call one or two. Maybe you would think they would call your most recent Yeah. Probably, But you know you can't overlook just laziness. That's the true,

That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah, whoever it was doing, I I didn't find anything fishy because I didn't find anything because I didn't look for it exactly. Yeah. Chandler was an electrical engineering designer. As we've been kind of talking about. He did not have friends. I know that that's the thing that people say, I don't really have friends. No,

he did not have friends. In fact, the guy who was the executor of his will was a co worker at his first job when he had two jobs that are documented that he actually worked in, and this first one was with ed Co Company ed Co Co and he worked with this guy Mark, I think it was Mark. It was Mark, and then he stated strongly that they were not friends. He actually, uh, when you know, Joseph Chandler asked him to be the executive as a state, he agreed to it, thinking oh, he's never gonna he's

not gonna die. Well, he he really regrets that now, he absolutely regrets it. And in fact, the only reason that he became the executor um on the wheel is

because he was on the lease. He was a co signer on the lease of chan Lar's most recent apartment, and that was because he went and was helping Chandler with some documents and found out that it was actually the landlord was going to be the co signer because he really didn't have anyone and Mark felt bad and said, okay, I'll be a co signer with you on your lease.

You're probably a trustworthy guy. And then since he was the only name that they could definitively connect to him, they said, all right, it's your job to execute the will. He was never actually named as the executor of the will by Chandel like Chandler never asked him to be the executor. I would never do that co sign for a co worker that I felt bad for. I mean again, things are much different now, but in terms of what happens when you're a co signer and somebody filters out,

but no way. Yeah, probably not. Yeah, so, I mean he did. He really genuinely didn't have friends. Mark the executor was the closest thing to a friend. And I know that you will find his last name out there, but in more recent interviews with him, he has asked that his last name be left off of it. So

we're going to continue to just honor that. Even though it's really easy to go find out what his last name is, we're not going to be just spreading it around the Chandler was just kind of mean from all the coworker accounts. He was kind of an on ball. Yeah,

he was really weird. He uh. There's one incident that the co workers always recount, and this is genuinely the only antecdote that exists about Chandler, right, and it is that he drove to l l being in Maine, which is like a twelve hour drive from the Ohio location. Um East Lake closer. I don't know. I think there is, but I don't know. In the seventies, what you know, I don't know why, Oh yeah, in the eighties or maybe the nineties, but I mean even then, like I

don't know really where things were. But he drove twelve hours to l being and he did one circle around the parking lot and there were no spots, so he just turned around and went drove home. And he was quoted as saying, if they don't have a parking spot for me, they don't have my business. That's fair, is it seems a little psycho really? But yeah, I mean that was a little crazy. So he drove for twenty

four hours for not Yeah, yeah, that's not normal. He reportedly created a static noise machine or a white noise machine that he had with him at all times, and he listened to it in his headphones pretty much all the time. I think he, you know, even when he was out on jobs and things like that, which I I recognize as a crazy thing. But also, if you don't really like people or you don't want to interact with people, that's a really good way to tune people out.

It's canceling, that's what I mean. That's a that's a great way to if you cannot think while other people are just nattering along next to you, you got to block him out, or if you can't stand other people. I mean, it's it's even as simple as just being annoyed by people or some sounds can really bug you too. I know that there's certain sounds that really irritate the hell to me, you know, So maybe there was a

lot of those sounds going on his office. Yeah, there's. Yeah, there's definitely a couple of things that are more recently diagnosed disorders that are recognized as actual mental disorders that will make people like legitimately angry. That are noises that are totally normal noises. But oh, I know, you know, like I've had coworkers and people eat the yogurt out of the little plastic thing and you get to the bottom and it's always scritch, scrich. You know. That's that's

definitely that noise dressed me crazy. Yeah. Chandler told his co workers that he had been married twice, once to a Cuban woman who did not speak English. He spoke of a sister Mary. I don't think so. I've never seen anything that indicated that he did. I don't, so don't ask me how they communicated. It would be an interesting they were married. You don't communicate when you're married.

I've I've heard that. Yes, he said that he had a sister, Mary R. Wilson, who lived in Columbus, Ohio, and he listed her on some of his forms, but the address was vacant, and Mary Wilson was probably totally made up. There's really really good chance yea too, didn't he? He sometimes said he had a brother. His stories about himself were not usually the same. Although although the the sister that he used, the address was the same for

all the applications. And I think even he referenced her when he uh when he wrote for the cards or something. There was something earlier that he referenced her in as well, But you know, again, who knows. The investigators on this case have some kind of descriptive things to say about Chandler as well. They say that he lived a hermit's life.

His apartment was sparse but had a few books, and the official profile is that he suffered obsessive compulsive disorder, and he didn't drink or smoke, and was anti social and seldom appeared to be at ease in public. So total interviewer, introvert, yeah A. One of the one of the other interesting traits is he was an engineer, of course, and so engineers have a certain kind of personality kind of thing. He never wrote in cursive script. He i

was wrote in block block letters, all all caps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, from what everybody can tell, he was really really intelligent and they think they knew that he knew what he was doing, that he was really living the perfect life to keep off the radar. I mean, he wasn't what he was doing to with his false identity and yeah, exactly. Yeah, he didn't spend a lot of money, He didn't buy anything that would raise red flags.

He didn't partake in any kind of habitual behavior where he didn't smoke it and drink and go out, so you know, he did he led a quiet life. He had they call it a modest bank account, which is probably true. And he really didn't move around a lot, you know, he was he was he was really good

at attracting attention, not attracting attention. Yeah, sorry, yeah, well yeah, I could see why you wouldn't move that off And if you've got to get somebody to co sign the lease every time you do it, yeah, I would imagine, though I don't think that's right because after your first apartment that you've been in for five years and they called the landlord and he says, always paid on time, No big deal, then you don't need a co signer.

It's when you're when you're fresh, Yeah, you got no history, right, or when you're moving around a lot. And I believe

he had a credit history, did he? Yeah? Yeah. In fact, he was so good at this whole living off the radar thing that investigators initially thought maybe he was in the long term witness protection program of some kind, but that was ruled out quickly by the U. S. Marshals who were investigating the case because the same program mostly they would know Mark the not front co worker, the co worker, the only co worker, said that he had actually invited Chandler to come to a Halloween party, totally

expecting him to not show up. And this was just kind of after the whole well, it was like three or four years after he had signed the lease with Chandler and Chandler got his apartment in six Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. I don't know why I had eighty nine in my head somehow. Yeah, so, I mean, you know, it was a while later, but he definitely says that he tried to at least speak with Chandler once a year. Um, you know, he really felt for

the guy. I think, Um, but it turns Chandler showed up to the party. Um, they dispect him to that at all. They were sure that he was not going to show up, and he did. He showed up and he was dressed in a full like full out gangster you know. He had the pinstripe sue and the wide lapel and the cigar and the hat, and um, that's a little lot. I mean, I've seen reported that he only had like one change of clothes and his entire house. So that's I mean, that's a pretty big length to

go to for a Halloween party. But they go and he looks pretty sharp in that suit, he does, And that's actually those are the pictures that you'll see a lot on the internet. Those those two pictures of him looking slightly nefarious, you're the only candid photos of him. They are, and he does. It's definitely worth looking at those because he does look pretty different than he does

in the one picture, the I D picture. He's dental record is on file, as mentioned, but as also mentioned, it was made during the twenty three or so years that he was Chandler obviously like an eight year old. Joey's dental records probably wouldn't be super helpful in a case like this, but the dental records are attributed to him, so so they checked those before they burned the body. They checked those to identify him, to make sure he

was the guy who was on the lease. Right, they found the dentist who the local dentist who had worked on his tooth. Sound correct. I presume that's how they didn't. I woul that on file. I hope that his boy, they're gonna be disappointed in mighty Yeah, me too. I'm kind of curious about the dentist. His dnist noticed nothing unusual that is dental work, but I guess I haven't seen any reports, and I think they would have mentioned it. They also have DNA on file from some old medical visits.

I guess he he had advanced colon cancer and he had gone through some treatment, but he insisted on paying for everything in cash, which again, you know, sounds like something this guy would do, and so he just couldn't afford it. Apparently, his first round of treatments cost him eighty thou dollars and he paid in cash, and then they wanted him to do chemo. But so that's where they had the DNA samples from you know, all the testing and stuff like that, so they do have DNA

samples of Chandler. They don't have fingerprints though, because again they cremated the body, so nobody really examined his fingers. But also they they thought, well, surely he hadn't you know he had They had an entire apartment full of stuff.

Surely there's at least one good print, but no all smudges, all smudges, And we'll talk about that in a little bit, but I will just mention that he was an electrical engineer, so you know, burning your fingertips with Yeah, it's easy to do, super easy, So it wouldn't really surprise me a whole lot. But again, we can talk about some other reasons that that might be. We can also standing We'll talk about some other reasons of why that might

be in a minute. And then his autopsy revealed, on top of the terminal colon cancer, that he also had male pattern baldness, which leads most people to believe that he's wearing a hairpiece in his I D picture, which I'm willing to believe. You know, there are so few pictures of him and the two candid ones. He's wearing a hat, so you can't tell what's under there, So I don't know what he looked like in life, you know. I don't know if or even if he wore a

hair piece. I don't know about any of that. So one final note before we move on to our next little thing that we need to talk about, is that Chandler would sometimes apparently just go dark, like just disappear for a couple of days, sometimes a month at a time, but mostly just a couple of days. And Mark said that when he asked him about it, Chandler would just say, uh, they were close, they're getting close, And that was the only description he would give him. They were getting close. Ye,

that's weird. It's super weird, right, Aliens, Aliens, I'm telling you. So here's the next thing we need to talk about, and that is that someone familiar to many of you takes a big interest in this case, or at least did a year ago. I don't know if he's moved on or not, because he tends to do that, but

that person is James Renner. And I'll be totally upfront and transparent in saying that I did not reach out to him for this story because of the weird, non responsive stuff that we received when we were researching the mar Murray case. Uh, and I didn't really want to go through that again, so we did not talk to

Mr Renner about this case. But we did look at a lot of research through his blogs that he's written, some Reddit posts, and also um an article that he said doesn't exist on the internet more anymore, but we found on the way back machine. So we've read. I feel we've done our due diligence on this one. Renner claims that Chandler was a sexual deviant, and I don't really know why. I think it's a bit sensationalist that

he claims this, but will run through this anyway. He posted a threat on Reddit a year ago that made this claim, and again he doesn't really there's nothing that he really says to back it up. His strongest bit of evidence is that on February four nine, a guy calling himself Joseph Newton Chandler. I think there was a third, but that could be admitted from the story I don't know shows up at a local hospital. Is that in air quotes the local hospital bits. I don't know if

it's air quotes. It's kind of like local hospital with lacerations on his penis. Uh. He said that he heard himself trying to masturbate with a vacuum cleaner, which I feel like, isn't that weird of a thing. And he was just, I mean, okay, yes, it's not uh like normal, It's not the most normal thing. But if you're a lonely guy, like, yeah, what the heck? And I I mean, Joe know something. Yeah, there's there's stores things I did vague to confirm this. I take to Pete Elliott's from

the U. S. Marshall Service. He was investigating this, and he said that the er story actually is true. Then yeah, well and I'm not okay, And so I'm not saying that that story didn't happen. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that lonely older guy showing up now saying I hurt myself. You know, masturbating with a vacuum

is not weird. And the other thing that I want to say about this is that the doctor didn't note that he thought that Chandler was probably older than he reported being, but he didn't say anything about not believing his story. About the vacuum. I think the implication that Renters trying to make is that this guy was like cutting himself or like doing some kind of like huge self harm. But I really think that the guy just got his penis stuck in a vacuum. Any young man

listening right now, don't try that. Don't try it. Please, don't try it. Don't don't don't do it. Well, I'll let me give you another piece of advice, and that is, when you go to the e R with something embarrassing like this, don't give him your real name and pay in cash. Yeah, I used to. I I had a girlfriend years ago. Yeah, she worked at the She worked at the billing of the billing records office. So this woman shows up with let's just say, a very embarrassing

sexually related injury at the er she's got. She gives him her name and medical insurance and everything. And in this office that my girlfriend worked at the time, there were more than a hundred people there, and of course every person in that office saw a copy of that EER reports and also a claim went out to an insurance company, and I'm sure hundreds of people at that insurance company saw that claim. And so like I said, fake name pain Cash. Yeah, yeah, totally so. I just

I don't think that the doctors didn't. I think they believed him. I think that was totally normal. I think it's totally sensationalist of Runner to say that this makes this guy sexual deviant. But okay, you know, accidents happened. Really Yeah no, I mean again, it happened, and I don't think anybody is saying it didn't happen. I just anyway.

Renner goes on to say that police found quote weird gadgets he created for purposes unknown, and a strange child peanut sticker from nineteen sixty five, and a hobby tool nobody has yet identified. I'm laughing because the hobby tool was show obvious. Literally within like thirty seconds, somebody identified it. It's a label maker. It's a label It's a raised

label maker from the seven. It's got the black or colored tape that you punch and the letters stand out why against it And a lot of electrical engineers use it to label gear or parts or whatever's got pistol handle on it. Yeah, and then the round thing on the top and the back of the still label strip and you stick it on and it's got your name on it everything. Yes, yeah, and you know again it's like,

oh weird. He has a sticker from nineteen five, like people have people and stuff, and even if it wasn't stuff, it's you know, it's like a good job sticker. Maybe he got it as an award, maybe he found it on the street and thought it was cute. It's not that weird. And yes, as far as I know, those black boxes have yet to be identified. Well, one of them does make the white noise well, I don't know about they're too big. I thought that's what Pete Elliott. Oh, he said one of the ones that one of the

white noise generator. Maybe it was like you know, portable white noise generator and housewhite noise generator. They look they look like the first gen of like shapeshifter tech from fringe to It's totally I mean, I looked at these things and YouTube Bill this. I work with a bunch of engineers, and it looks like the early prototype versions that the guys that I work with would make where they drill a couple of air holes in it so we can breathe and radiate heat and YadA, YadA, YadA,

and he scribbled on the back of it commands. But it looks like I swear I saw this similard. Maybe think that it's a power inverter. That was my thought too, that's where you saw it. It's my script maybe, Yeah, that it looked like an early version of that, and it's a thing that the patent wasn't filed for until so, I mean, it could have been tinkering, but it does. It looks like that that black pack that comes on your laptop, what you're talking about, Yeah, yeah, that's what

I thought too. Well. Know, what I was talking about is like a converter, because there's a power inverter and power converter from DC to a C right. And one of the things is that I was looking it up as the inverters are used for motors because you can you can adjust the voltage on him. And you know, the first thing that made me think of was you ever played with an old model train set, like really old control boxes that have the dial And it totally

made me think of some homemade version of one of those. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's on the bottom it says on on two sides or no two runner in pencil, and you know, people have said, well, why didn't he use the label maker, and it was like, well, maybe he was out of tape, or maybe he didn't want it to be permanent, maybe he wasn't ready for it to be permanent. But yeah, I mean, there there are a lot of things they

could be. And uh, you know, it sounds like Pete Nose or Mr Elliott sorry, Mr Elliott knows, Marshall Elliott knows. You know that at least one of them is the white noisemaker, so that's identified. And you know, I just think they're not really that nefarious. No, they're weird, but they're wed. You say, if he sat at home and he just worked on stuff all the time, why not Yeah let me try this. Maybe I can you know,

make the better mouse trap. Yeah exactly, Yeah, that's what he might just might have just actually gotten a lot of joy out of just soldering stuff, you know, Yeah, he could have. The other thing that Runner says is that the gun was purchased. The gun that Chandler used to kill himself was purchased in Ohio a few months

prior to his suicide. But that's not true. About half of the other investigation that I've seen says that it was purchased in Texas between nineteen sixty six and nineteen seventy six from a gun store that doesn't exist anymore, and their records were destroyed Lle Texas. Yeah, but well the records couldn't have been destroyed though, because when when you have a federal firearms licensed. Well, I thought there was.

I thought the whole thing was there was like a fire at the I mean, I don't know, okay, because otherwise, but when you when you close your business down, you give up your federal firearms license, you got to send all your books to the B A T. F. Right, which would make sense. But was that the same process at that time. Let's say that this this, this place disappeared in the late seventies, would that would that process

have been in place? The process? The process was in place after the nineteen six Gun Control Act, So yeah, I would have probably been then. Okay, Well but maybe not if he bought it in sixty six, it could have been before they were really keeping records. Yeah, I thought he bought it more recently. Well, yeah, I don't really know. Again, I'm fifty fifty on this because half the reporting I see says a couple of months before, and the other half says, I don't know, there's a

big window there. I have a question, and I think I know what the answer is going to be. Okay, where did Renner get the information that it was purchased within months prior to the suicide? Is that not provided? You know? One of the reasons that I have a bit of a problem with James Runner is that he doesn't He's not great at saying exactly where he got the information from. He's really good at saying and I found out that this thing, And you're like, okay, but

where did you find that out? And you know in the I'm sure in his books he's much better. But like, I don't okay, I'm not made of money. I can't buy everything. I presumed that that was going to be that's the situation because we've encountered this before, but I just wanted to double check. Yeah, okay, So are you guys ready to talk about theories? Yeah? I actually like how you've labeled the theory section who could it be? Now? The minute work? Who could it be? Now? It's we're

going to just do enough betical order. The theories are right? Who Who's Chandler. So the first one is Colin Hay, the lead singer for Minute Work. Uh no, not alphabetically now, Oh, I was really hoping that's why you titled the section that No, damn sorry actually has nothing to do with Men Work. I just had that song stuck in my head. I'm sorry. It is actually a famous singer on the

suspect list, there is, It's true. Yeah, just wait, okay, okay, So the first we have pictures in our script, so sorry all over you'll, Yeah, but I just thought it'd be nice while we're sitting here talking for us to happen. So the first one is Stephen Craig Campbell. And I'm just gonna go ahead and preface this whole thing by saying that literally almost every single one of these could be an episode in and of themselves, individuals on each

individual suspect. So we're just going to try and really keep it short. But I can't make any promises because they're all really really fascinating. Yeah. Campbell is on America's most wanted list for crimes he committed in three, specifically for attempted first degree murder and and making a bomb. He has a few known aliases. One is Fred Campbell and the other Stephen Murphy. Yep, we got a Jonah Steve. I don't know, I could be Fred. I guess Okay, anyway,

what's up next? Fred? Well, So, Campbell decided that he did not like his ex wife's new boyfriend Nobody. He was jealous, so he decided to make a bomb and put it in a toolbox his toolbox, uh, and put it on the porch, thinking that you know, the husband would be like, oh tools, and you know open it would is attracted to a box of craftsmen. Well, listen, I don't think that Campbell's like the most sound thinker anyway.

Long story short, his wife, his ex wife, finds it instead, but she's suspicious of it and pokes it with a broom and it explodes. It takes off the entire back end of the house and her hand, but she lives, so it almost ended up killing her instead. Campbell was arrested and admitted to the whole thing and posted bail and promptly skipped it and has never been seen again, except for maybe once he might have been arrested under one of his other identities and posted bail and skipped again.

Or escaped or something. He was a pretty strong suspect as the UNI bomber as well for a while. So here's here's some interesting things about Campbell. He was an electrical and chemical engineer. He was born in California, where Chandler spent quote unquote spend some time, supposedly spend some time.

Campbell fled from Cheyenne, Wyoming, which is only three hundred and eight miles from Rapid City, South Dakota, where the social Security card and birth certificate request were made for Joey Listen reported sightings of Campbell happened in the Virgin Islands, and you know, Chandler might have had Cuban wife, and the Virgin Islands in the in Cuba are like kind of close, right, Yeah, I'll go to Virgin Islands. I'll

check out. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And some people say that Campbell was kind of just a crazy person anyway, and had multiple Social Security numbers and birth certificates of other people for years prior to get that's a great idea, but he that he had started doing that even before obviously, you know, in the seventies and the early seventies, so that he has a pretty solid that's a pretty solid suspect. The reason in the suspect is because he wears glasses.

It kind of looks like it kind of looks like a young version of Chandler. I mean, he does. You have to admit the mug shot on the I D picture look vaguely similar. And I know a lot of that is because of the glasses, but they do look vaguely similar to But let's just talk about let's just talk about the problems. Right. Campbell was six ft or maybe even six too, and Chandler was five seven, maybe five eight on a good day. You know, people say, well he shrunk, He shrunk because he was getting older.

Campbell had curly hair. Chandler did not, although again we don't really know that for sure because they're comment, sorry, I had long hair once. Yeah, well, I mean, but it was backwards. The thing is that like, Campbell had curly hair and Chandler had straight hair quote unquote. But it's just counting the fact that he was probably wearing away but you don't, we don't know it was probably. But also, you know, perm's worth thing, so he Campbell

could have had a perm. The timeline, the timeline doesn't really match very well. Campbell didn't really become a fugitive until like ten years after Chandler's surfaced. Their eye colors not the same, and Campbell was born in forty eight, which means that he would be ten years younger than Joey would And if anything, people thought that Chandler was older than he then he said he was not younger.

So it would be very impressive if you happened to be ten years younger than you were claiming, and people kept thinking, oh, no, that's too young for you. Living hard, yeah, really hard. I mean, I like the theory because they again, I think they look kind of similar. And to address the draw line issue, apparently Campbell had a rich uncle that might have paid for some minor plastic surgery quote

unquote that wouldn't be minor surgery. Though, I'm gonna I'm gonna point this out right now, and I'm gonna say this, I'm just gonna apply this to every candidate that we have. Is that if you look at Chandler's nose and you look at the nostrils, He's kind of got an upturned nose because you you see his nostrils when he's looking straight ahead and nobody else does that. So it's almost kind of the the pixie knows because he's looking straight ahead,

but his his his schnas is pointing up. Nobody else seems to have that nose. Stop showing me your nostrils, Stefen. Well, I mean, can you see them when you like, when you hold your head. But but he's he's looking he's looking relative totally straight ahead. He doesn't look like he's tipped back. So that's why I have a problem with it. Yah, yeah, that's true. But yeah, I would say that he is not a good suspect. Okay, oh yeah, the age thing is right well, and the hyper eye color, yeah, alright,

who else could it be? Well, it could be uh D B. Cooper like Dan Cooper. There's not no resemblance. And again, the only thing we have to compare to is a composite sketch of Dan Cooper. Right, we don't have any actual photos of Dan Cooper. Cooper hijacked a plane in nineteen seventy one. Yeah you know that, right, Okay that you just you just gave me a fright that I you're right, yeah, I mean, Chandler was probably on the lamb from something. But I think I don't

think he was Cooper. Do you think I do? Well, it would have been the wrong age. Of course, Again, people said he looked older, but Cooper was supposedly white in his mid forties people guests. Yeah, I know, I loved I looked at a lot of that stuff and I kept trying to find what people how old people thought Cooper was, and that was it was almost impossible. Yeah, people are just saying there, yeah, yeah, but he would have been too old. Yeah, but yeah, I think that

Cooper had a different personality. He was He was chatty and friendly with it with the stewardesses. And also he drank and smoked. Of course, if it was Cooper, maybe he go up one on the wagon eventually at some point. It's kind of hard for me to picture dB Cooper just like being a hermit though, yeah, yeah, and and you know, an electrical or electrical engineer and just not Yeah, I don't think Yeah, I don't think that either. And in the late seventies, you know, there's no reason for

Cooper to go on the lamb. I mean, the police were not hot on his trail. Yeah that was when, so you know, only seventies. Keeper was not hiding under your identity. He was. He was actually hiding money on the banks of the Columbia River that got burned a little bit we found in the eighties. Yeah, so yeah, I mean, so he had no reason to assume the false identities. I would agree with thats were nowhere near closing in on him. Yeah, I would agree with that totally. Yeah,

let's move on to the next one. Okay, our next guy is John Dial, John Victor Dial. Excuse me. I mostly included this one for fun and because you'll see at places. But um, we're going to debunk it pretty quick here. John Victor Dial went a wall from his station at Howard Air Force Base in Panama in June of nineteen sixty six, or actually he left service. I don't know if he was honorably discharged, dishonorably discharged, or

he went a wall. He married at twenty three years old a Panamanian woman named Elsa, and they probably had at least one child, maybe two. People say, oh, yeah, you know, Chandler said that he had a Cuban wife, and uh, maybe actually she was Panamanian and maybe yeah he was on a stake, and yeah, maybe he was wrong. I mean, actually, you know, Cuba and Cuba and Phantom are kind of similarly shaped. They're long and skinny, they are vaguely similarly shaped. Yet it would be pretty that'd

be an easy mistake to make. Yeah. Well, the spoilers are that, you know, John Dial has since resurfaced and he's safe and everything's fine, and he's not Chandler because he contacted his sister after he wasn't dead, he wasn't dead. Who else could it be? Well, it could be Jim Morrison. I checked. I checked the end of that, and the end of that. Does seem to believe that Jim Morrison faked his own death? Yeah, they do, although I don't think Jim Morrison could ever live like that. Though I

don't think so. Well, I want of the thing too, you know. I looked up a picture of Jim Morrison. Jim Morrison had long hair. This guy has short hair. Yeah. There's no way, Yeah, I know, yeah, there's no way. Yeah yeah. Uh. Next next theory is um a Soviet spy. Yeah, I got this one from that. I don't know if

you saw this. I did. I did, and I was kind of thinking, well, do I want to leave it in do I not want to leave it in And then when we talked about talking to Marshall elliott I just thought, okay, well yeah we should and he he didn't say that this wasn't necessarily a strong contender. He said, he just says, some people believe that maybe it was

a Soviet spy, and maybe there's something to this. Actually, as it turns out, you know, one of the big problems with Handler is figuring out how he found Joey in the first place. Right, it's a fairly obscure that, you know, the family, it wasn't a huge car accident. There was just a little tiny blurb. It would have been some big news in their hometown. It wasn't even

I looked. I looked at the news reports and it was you know, in the town that they were from, there was literally in the obituary section there was a little like three sentenced thing on their death, and then in the town they crashed, there was just a little, tiny like two paragraph thing. It was huge news. Um,

it wouldn't have made a splash. It wouldn't be one of those things that people would think, oh, yeah, you know, so finding his identity is one of the huge Yeah, so you have to have a big spive you're actually doing it for you, or you knew the family. Well, that's what I was thinking when I talked to Marshall Elliot and I was, you know, I was like, I was thinking that maybe would have been like a school

a classmate of Joey's or somebody who knew him. Yeah, that's a that's a theory, or potentially a not so close relative. And I was asking about that. Actually it's like and and I just I just thought it would make that suggestion to him, but he was actually way

ahead of me on that checked out. I've checked all that and they've they've got some d n A. And I asked him, based on the idea that it was possibly somebody who was like a cousin or a second cousin or something like that, who would have known about this. And so I asked him, are they going to exume or have the exhumed the bodies of the family of the Chandler family, And he said, they're not at that stage yet. You said it might still happen, but that's

kind of parents. Yeah, yeah, and resuming the parents and just to see if it was maybe if there were any close market. I would I would question how much usable DNA there would be at that point. Well, there is that, you know, I don't know, but he's he said that it's it's a possibility that might happen eventually, but it's kind of a last ditch sort of thing because obviously digging up bodies it's not not the first

go to things. No, no, no, it's really frowned upon. So, I mean that could happen in this case, actually could get solved. Yeah, well it turns out it was a relative. So but we're talking actually about Soviet spies right now, not family members. Yeah, that's okay. So, I mean, you know, the fingerprints are a pretty big indicator that this could be a thing if we think, okay, maybe he didn't

burn his fingertips off on accident all the time. This is a thing that Soviet spies and people who were fleeing, well, people who were Nazis that we're trying to avoid persecution did, is they mutilated their own fingerprints with you know, acid or seeing them down or whatever so that they would never leave usable prints, which it kind of seems like Chandler did. Because it's incredible that he had an entire house and not a single usable print from the lot

of it. Yeah. I mean that's I don't think it was a Nazi because assuming he was born in nine seven is somewhere close to around there, he would have been the youngest Nazi ever. Yeah, yeah, exact, Yeah, Yeah, I know I would agree may Hitler. Yeah. But one of the things that apparently I was just gonna say, one of the things that apparently also backs this up is that there was a very old, outdated computer found

in Chandler's house. Uh, and apparently it got damaged in the move to the evidence locker, so they just threw it out, which is so convenient. But UM investigator Lewis was the first investigator, and he said that he had a guy look at the comp year before it had been moved, and that there had been some recent web searches that included UM like Nazism and plastic explosives. So um, somehow I guess that helps. I don't really know. I think before you like head overseas on your Soviet sleeper

raging assignment, they teach you how to make plastics. I think that's true, And I also don't think you have to search Nazism. You probably kind of know what it's about, right, Yeah, it's I would easily just kind of justify that as he probably watched something on biography or something about the war and decided to I want to see if there's some other information on this one topic. And you know, I mean people do people do that all the time. Yeah, actually,

it is. It's it's actually I think more people should do a little research on the Nazis because people actually a lot of people have the wrong idea about the Nazis. A lot of people don't totally understand what the Nazis were about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there were there were sex, don't get me wrong, But people don't really understand their

ideology as well as they think they do. Yeah. So yeah, I mean the only problem is is, you know, there's a problem I think Joe has with it mostly, which is that you know, this isn't it's not a secret. Using the identity of a dead child is like, that's not that's yeah, I mean it's been around. The first place I ever heard about this was they have the

Jackal by Frederick FORSTT. You know, and then well this guy gets it, and I guess this is how the Internet believes that this guy went out to a graveyard and just walked around until you found a dead family. The law enforcement does not believe that. That's why they believe that there was some sort of connection, not necessarily family or close friends, but there. But because walking around a graveyard, it's like, you know, that'd be a long,

tedious process. Yeah, and that's that's that's banking on the fact that they're all going to be buried together in a single plot. Well, it's banking on that. It's also banking on the fact that you know that John Smith isn't a black guy. There's all kinds of factors there, and so it's a lot easier to just you know, go through newspaper articles rather than walk around walk around cemetery. Absolutely,

that's true. Yeah, and I guess you know, apparently Chandler did once tell Mike uh that he had something he wanted to tell Mark. I'm sorry that he had something he wanted to tell him someday, but I don't know what it was. That he was a Zodiac killer, could have been sleeper age, yeah, or maybe he wanted to tell him about the vacuum cleaner into Yeah, maybe it's possible. Uh,

next time, I don't want to say about this. The web search is though, is that if he was a perv, then why didn't he have like stuff like kinky vacuum tricks and stuff like that. Isn't he was using the incognito? I don't know. Maybe yeah. Next up is Gene Isaac Ste's professor Gina isaac sts professor. Stees was incarcerated at a state prison in Columbus, Ohio because he was a gem. He was convicted of beating his estranged wife and unborn child to death. He admitted it and was sentenced in

nineteen sixty three, and he wasn't a model inmate. He eventually became a clerk there even and one of the added benefits of him being a clerk there is that instead of wearing the you know, old striped pajamas, he got to wear khakis and look like a normal human being. And also the clerk's office was like literally right next to the door out that wasn't apparently left very locked all the time. Attended at least yeah, attended at least so seven years and four days after his initial incarceration

on February eighteen, seventy. Steve's just walked out that door. I recently read in a book about the Accatraz prison break back in the sixties. It was not nearly as easy for those kids. It was not well. I mean, people say he's one of those guys too. Yeah, there are people who have a sideline this theory. But that's one of the things that also gets brought up. Yeah, I have a suspicion those guys all drowned. Yeah, I

would guess that as well. This was pretty well planned, I think, because He's wasn't reported missing to the least for like three days after because of protocol. That's what they say, Well, do you have an inside man? I know they're the prison did a head count every day, but they didn't do a head count until the evening, and Steve's walked away in the morning, and so he

wasn't counted missing until that night. And then for whatever reason, the police or the prison guards just decided that the police probably didn't need to know about that for a couple of days. I don't know, maybe they thought they had just misplaced him or something. I'm not really sure. Anyway, obviously, by the time the police found out the trail was totally cold and they had nothing to go on, so

he's actually never been found. Steeves, and I guess I can see some similarities a little bit, not really really slight, but it's really slight between him and everybody else it is. I mean, you know, Steve, Steve's is a slightly bigger guy like he's you know, he's got a little chub on him. So I don't I guess I don't really know what he would look like if he lost a bunch of weight and was about the same weight as

Chandler was. Um, but I still don't think they really looked that much alike, that they like anything alike realistically. You know, Uh, Steeves was born in nineteen thirty two, so he would have actually been a couple of years older than Joey, which would have corresponded well with you know, the fact that the thought that he was older he did have male pattern baldness. But again, you know, I can't find any information about stees other than what I've

just told you, so I don't know. I mean, you know, it's a it's an interesting theory, but it's definitely not air tight. Yeah, I think that I think the Chandler has got a like a longer face, longer nose. I think that too, but I it's hard to tell. It's their faces have totally different shapes. They have their eyebrowsers shaped differently. Their noses are mean, you did either of you guys look at that. That was the one thing that really I really found enjoyable with crime Shadows dot com,

the one that's in the way back machine. Whoever ran that took the time to make gifts of superimposing photos on top of each other just with Campbell? Was it just with Campbell? I thought there was more than one, But it was really kind of funny because the way that it was done was just kind of hacked together. It's not great, that's true, and it's it was. It was just so funny that that was their tool to make him prove that he's this person. OK, yeah, no,

I agree with you. Uh. Next, Chandler could be the Zodiac Killer DA killer. This is not an episode on the Zodiac Killer. This is not an episode on the Zodiac Killer. Let's talk about the Zodiac Killer. Zodiac and Chandler were in California. If if Chandler was indeed in California around the same time the Zodiac Killer just loves Jack the Ripper And you know, Joseph Chandler was the

name of the head inspector in the Ripper case. From to eight lovers in Ohio were killed in a similar fashion to the Zodiac which is you know, like just when we can really confirm that Chandler was in Ohio and then he gave it up for twenty years and killed himself. I yeah, right, I mean, that's that's that's my biggest thing, is um they One of the things about the Zodiac Killer is that he definitely had much

more control over his compulsion than many serial killers. But when we get down to it, he was a serial killer, and I don't think that he would have been able to not kill anybody for god, how many years is that? It's like twenty years almost exactly. You know, if I was going to be a serial killer, you know what I would do. I would just change my m OH all the time. Well that's what Zodiac did. But that's what the Zodiac did. That's why he was never really caught.

He changed his m O. And you know, I guess it's possible that there was the rand Um murder here there, and he just got really good at covering it up and all of that stuff. But again, I just don't think. I don't think this is it. But I did read one Internet comment which I just loved, and it was that this person said that she saw the Zodiac Killer when she was six um and that when she saw the mug shot of Chandler, or not the mug shot, the I D picture of Chandler, she immediately knew it

was the same man. I saw a picture of Santa Claus once and I knew it was Santa Claus. I did too, And I mean, you know the other thing is right, like, you can't this isn't today. You know, in eight you can't just do a Google search for you know, deceased Joseph Chandler and come up with a name and then go and get the records. So how would how would one if we're going to run down the rabbit hole of the Zodiac loved Jackie Repperon wanted to have his next alias B Joseph Joseph Chandler. How

did he find this? Absolutely that would be look if for a needle in a haystack? Would and why that particular name you know, out of all the names and Jack the Ripper, you know, Yeah, why that guy, Yeah exactly. I don't know. So I don't think that's a good theory. Zodiac and everybody likes to tie everything, everything to the zodiac. It is the go to you know. The interesting thing about the Zodiac killers, he really uh, he really didn't kill that many people, you know, and and I just

got everybody's attention. Yeah, he's just the big one out there. There's people out there killed ten times as many people. And yeah, people don't even know their names, but they didn't taunt the letters. So we're still trying to break the code. Yeah they are. Yeah, I guess there's one last theory, and that's just some random person avoiding I don't know, child support, you know, bills or literally insert

anything here. Well there's that guy that just recently there's that article the found him in Europe I think it was, and he'd been missing for six years from the States. Six tears. Yeah, it doesn't matter. There was a typo in the original headline and it said he was missing for six tears. I didn't see that one. But he was gone for six years. His family didn't know where he was, and then they find him and he's like, oh, yeah, no, I'm fine. No, I don't I don't want to talk

to you people. No, no, and he just like he won't have any contact with his family. I mean, that's what John John Dial was doing. I mean, he just didn't want to have contact with their family. And then one day, you know, finally, I think it got to the point where he said, oh my god, you guys, I'm not okay, fine, I'm alive. Yes, I'm alive. People people have fallings out with family all the time and say,

you know what, you're a bunch of jerks. I'm never talking to you again, and move and never talk to him again. Although you don't necessarily need to steal someone's identity to do that, especially in the seventies. No, I'm not going to disagree with that at all, but it's people do weird stuff to really really take it as far as they could. And and he was he was an hardball, so he may have said, you know, his he seemed to have a very methodical side to him, so he may have said, to do this, I have

to do this, and I have to do that. And so he went ahead and he did all those things, even though he probably could have just moved to another the state and never given them his phone number. Yeah, it would have been really easy for him. Yeah. Um, I I told the you guys, though, I went ahead and checked the FBI FBI vault for this name. The Joseph was his middle name again Newton, Thank you, Joseph Newton Chandler. Nothing comes up on Joseph Newton Chandler the third.

But I found some interesting results for Joseph Newton Chandler, some of which makes sense, some of which I make absolutely no sense. Um, like the Black Panthers. Um. But there was the Dillinger gang from the thirties, which the time frame doesn't work on that. Uh. There was the Bremer kidnapping, which was a gang gangster kidnapping, which was in the late thirties, I believe. Um. But that's that kind of brought the FEDS down on him and they took the entire gang out. Um. There's another guy by

the name of Ralph Row. He comes up in it, but again he's another gangster from the thirties who's killed. But the one that actually was really interesting to me is that the name came up in documents about Jonestown. Jonestown, the drinking the flavor Aid happened in late seventy eight, so it's possible that he was an early UM defector, or he survived the whole thing and just went I never want to be found by these people again. I'm changing who I am. Understandable now, It's true his name

came up in the files about Jonestown. Was he actually a memori? Actually the problem is is that I didn't think to check the vault until today, and it was in one of those PDFs that's a hundred and some odd pages long, and it's all photocopied. I'm not easily readable, right, So I looked at him, and so I just started skimming through the results, but I couldn't find exactly where it was. But I just said, I was like, well, you know, that's actually it's one of those big things

that people may never want to be associated with. They just up and leave because of it. Yeah, except for that's just the same name. Yeah, that's the problem with it. Yeah, that's the problem. I guess. The other thing that would be interesting is if he was connected to you know, the Dillinger or like any of the mob you know stuff. The fact that he went dressed the one time he ever went to address that party, he went dressed as

a gangster is kind of interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean I don't think the time frame really necessarily lines up. But no, and I looked up a you know, unless he was like a kid. Maybe he was like a ten year old kid who saw something and uh it was witness protection and it just was so long standing that, you know, the Marshalls didn't even have any I don't think so. I mean, I'm just speculating. I looked stuff about because there's there's speculation on the internet that he

was a gangster who was on the run. Not necessarily a witness protection which on the run, but it is it's just so impossible to find who disappeared, because guys in the mob disappeared all the time. Yeah, I don't think I put it in the same the same stand as I do with the zodiac. It's an easy go to, Yeah, easy whoa, Well, he was hiding, it was hiding. Well, he must have been of the mob. That's the easy answer.

Is it's really easy. Who knows he had a secret, He wanted to get away from somebody, hiding the long and yeah, I mean, you know, Marshall Elliott has quoted on the internet is saying that he's very certain that that Chandler was a violent fugitive m but you know, everybody who ever encountered him in his life said they didn't have the sense that he was violent at all. Although maybe that's why, you know, he's got the headphones

on all the time. He's a recluse because he just if he knows, he knows if he interacts with people too much, he might become violent. I don't know. Yeah, what people know it was to get older too. I mean, who knows, maybe as violent crimes or crime days were behind, or maybe they were you know, alcohol, Yeah it could be. You know, maybe he had a problem with alcohol, that's why he didn't drink. Yeah, it could have been. Do you guys have anything else you want to talk about

with this, because there's a bajillion could have gone. I'm sorry, this is an unsatisfying one where I just don't have a good answer. We'll stay tuned though, you never know. Yeah, I could probably dig up a few bodies, maybe they'll solve it. When I talk to Pete Elliott today, he said, he said, you know, police, send any any information you turn up, police, send it my way. He's still actively

pursuing the case. Yeah, he is, And so listeners out there, anybody has any evidence, so you know, shoot it our way. We'll forward it onto the marshal world. Yeah, don't send it in yourself. We'll do it for you. We'll take the credit. Well yeah, we'll totally give you credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do want some credit, then fine, fine, fine, we'll find a way to get you hooked up with the Marshals or send you a T shirt or something, you know, whatever gives you a free podcast or something

like that. That we can probably do that. Yeah. Well, um, if you want to see any of the links, I think probably will post at least one of the links that is connected through the way back machine. Um, and then a couple other things. So if you want to find those links without having to find them yourselves, which is kind of pain, I can tell you that'll be on our website that's thinking sideways podcast dot com. You are probably listening to us on iTunes or streaming us,

or listening to us on Google Play. If you're doing any of those and for some reason you have not subscribed yet, why don't you do that? And then you can also give us a comment or a review and a rating. UM on iTunes, I think on some of the streaming ones you can too. If you can just do it, it helps people find us. UM. Obviously we hope you'll leave a good one, but if you don't, well, and we're getting thanks to Google Play, we're getting a

whole bunch of new listeners. So welcome to everybody that in the last month or so since Google Play really released all the Google Music released, all the podcast stuff, tons of people. Yeah, we're on Facebook. We've got a group and a page if you want. This is just a quick word of advice. If you want to have discussion, do it in the group. If you post on our Facebook page like a question for our audience, nobody will.

We will respond to you, but nobody. But the way we will respond to you is to say, hey, you should probably post this in the group. Um. We've got a Twitter it's Thinking Sideways. We've got a subreddit which is just our thinking sideways. You can email us if you have comments about this, feving information, if you have story suggestions, if you're an expert. Also if you have any constructive criticism that you'd like to get out there, that's a pretty good forum. If you want to do

it in a public forum, do it. Please do it on like Facebook or somewhere where we can respond to you. You can talk about that somewhere. That's a hundred character limit hopefully, yeah. Um, so you can email us. That email address is Thinking Slave podcast at gmail dot com. And then, last but not least, if you would like to support the show in any way. We do have the merch links on the website. You can get a

shirt or a sticker or whatever. But if you'd like to donate, just like money, you can do a one time donation via PayPal and that links on the website, or you can become a sustaining member and donate per episode on Patreon, which is patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways and everybody remember Patreon is an ongoing thing, so it's it's per episode. So if you say you want to give a buck, that's a buck per episode, which we love. Thank you so much, absolutely, it is. It

is amazing. We wholly appreciate it. Um. I know that it seems that there's a little bit of confused and sometimes in the way Patreon works with the amount you're pledging versus the limit that you said, because you can limit it, you can say I can't. You know, you say you want to spend ten bucks a month, it'll stop you at the ten bucks. But that seems to have caused some confusions, so be aware that that's how that works. It'll never just keep rolling on you yea.

So all of that having been said, I think we're just going to go ahead and get on out of here. I think so it's time we solved this one. This is the last. All right, bye everybody, Bye, guys,