Thinking Sideways: Jack the Ripper

that's because we're doing it now. Yeah, and what we're gonna look into is something that a lot and I mean a lot of people have requested that we cover it. Jack the Ripper, I gotta tell you too. There was a lot of personal sacrifice for me because in researching this, I was constantly having to change my underwear because it's scary. It's a scary story. It is. Yeah, although luckily I'm not a prostitute, so it seems like you're kind of like if you're not a prostitute, you're not probably get

also like not in like London. Also it's been like more than a years. Yeah, probably dead, might or might not be dead. You never know. But it seemed seemed like an appropriate story to to do for Halloween. I imagine that most everybody is probably familiar with the story of Jack the Ripper, but for those who don't know it as well as others, were going to go ahead, We're going to start at the beginning, and then we're gonna go ahead and walk our way through the case.

And there's some things that I wasn't aware of until I've done the research, and so I think there's a lot of colonels of really interesting things that we're going to bring up. You know, I gotta be honest, I haven't been super familiar with the Jack the Ripper story. I mean, you know, I kind of knew it existed, but like I, despite maybe some indications, don't necessarily love like horror movies or stuff like that. So I've never liked seen any of the movies that we may reference.

I didn't really ever investigate the whole Jack the Ripper thing. So this has been like a really really interesting thing to be researching because I literally had like no frame of reference for this. So I would fall into the category of people who benefit greatly from a whole lot of explanation. Well, and the nice thing is we we realized early on that this was such a big story that we probably couldn't and shouldn't tackle it on our own.

So what we did is we got a little help and we reached out and we were lucky enough to spend some time talking with a gentleman by the name of Richard Jones, and we we should probab Just let's here, let's have Richard introduced himself. Yeah, I'm Richard Jones from the Jacketer patern in London, which is rippert dot com. I'm a jacket guide and I've also written two books on Jack the Ripper and made three documentaries on Jack the Ripper. All right, well let's start with London itself.

The time frame we're working in is literally just that year pretty much pretty much just pretty short time span of like, for example, the Acts of New Orleans that was over eighteen months. Yeah, this is a very very compressed time frame. And to talk about I know, this is one of the things that you you were going to take on, Joe, was to kind of tell us a little bit about London at the time. Yeah, exactly. And of course, you know, you can get a lot of you can get a lot of background an atmosphere,

you know, Sherlott Colins. The series started I think the year before The Ripper started, and you can get a lot of the atmosphere of London from eating those those books and those stories and which were which are great, by the way, I love those things when I was a kid. Um. But and let me tell you about the specific neighborhood. These were called the White Chapel murders.

And actually the White Chapel murders were eleven murders, of which only about five are actually directly attributed to the Ripper.

So the neighborhood of White Chapel, let me talk about it a little bit, was a neighborhood in the London in London's East End, and the East End by the late sixteenth early seventeenth century had attracted a lot of industrial development, a lot of stuff that was kind of smell a like foundries, slaughter houses, tanneries, breweries, and lots of people were there because back in those days, of course, we didn't have cars and freeways in suburbs, so you

had to live near where you worked, so there were lots of people there. And England at this time, beginning about the seventeenth century started a period of urbanization where people were leaving the countryside and walking to the cities. And you see similar phenomenon today if you go to places like South Paulo, Brazil, same thing, people who have just flocked to the city and they're living in hideous slums. So that same thing happened back in England at that time.

This and this lasted until the mid nineteenth century. Uh. And since things like foundries, breweries and tanneries and slaughter houses tend to smell really bad, that kept rents down. So if you're poor and from refreshing and from the countryside, you're gonna gravitate towards the east end. And of course that increased the poverty and over crowding that already existed there even more. Uh in the Victorian Area era from about eighteen forty onwards. It was made even worse by immigration,

mostly from Ireland and Eastern Europe. And so these slums are getting extremely crowded. Impact And by the way, I read a book about conditions in Britain at this time. It's called Capitalism in the Story is by Friedrich Hayak. Very good book and part of the reason for that is that the Napoleonic Wars and stuff. There have been massive shortages of building materials and stuff like that because of the war, and so substandard housing was kind of

the norm, and window was crowded. Brewing him were very much the norm. Anyway. Prostitution was endemic in this area. In Metropolitan Police estimated that there were sixty two brothels and roughly twelve hundred prostitutes in White Chapel alone, which is a very small area. Yeah, it's not that big of a neighborhood. Yeah, and that's only part of the East End. Also, Jack London, you guys have heard of Jack London, called the Wild and all that stuff. Yeah,

he decided to go undercover in nineteen o two. And of course this is fourteen years after the murders, but still I don't think things have changed probably all that much in that time. So he went undercover in the East End and put out old, ragged clothes and lived among the poor for three or four months apparently, And he actually slept in the streets and stuff like that.

I mean, he had he had an out. I mean he had money, so he could actually leave and go get a nice hotel room and take a shower or something like that. But yeah, but he's spent time in there and he and he and he took up and talked to a lot with a lot of people. And I've been reading his book about it. He wrote a book about it called The People of the Abyss, which I am not actually through with yet. Unfortunate. I think it's interesting Joe did all his research by reading books. Yea, yeah, yeah,

The People of the Abyss. But anyway, I recommend it, Like I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it's it's it's good reading so far. But here's how he describes his first foray in there. It's and it's funny. We read the book. He got to London and he's in the better part of London. He's saying, Oh, I want to go to the East End. Everybody says, like,

why the hell would you want to go there? He really seriously, he gets so he gets this cabby, this guy with a handsome, you know, horse drawn cab or thing, and he says, I want to go to the East End and this guy saying, where do you want to go there? And I just want to go there, says why, and finally talks this guy says, basically, I want to go. I want to go to the East End, and I want to go find a second hand store where I can buy some radial clothes. And so they travel along

until they find one of those. And here's this description of his first foray into the East End. Nowhere in the streets of London may want to escape the site of abject poverty. While five minutes walked from almost any point will bring one to a slum. But the region my handsome was now penetrating was one unending slum. The streets were filled with a new and different race of people, short of stature, and a wretched or beer sodden appearance.

Here and there larch a drunken man or woman in the air was obscene with sounds of jangling and squabbling. At a market tottery, old men and women were searching in the garbage thrown in the mud for rotten potatoes, beans and vegetables. Well. Little children clustered like flies around a festering mass of fruit, thrusting their arms to the shoulders into the liquid corruption and drawing forth morsels but

partially decayed, which they devoured on the spot. I know, I know, that's life according to Jack London in the East End. So in other words, Whitechapel was an armpit and I looked at it just today. I went out on Google street View and I cruised around. You ever cruise around the streets. I've actually been there, and it's it's not it's not as bad as it's not a bad place. It's very busy and it's very tight quarters compared to what we're used to here in the States. Yeah,

but it's not. It's not a slummy joint, but it buildings. But no, it's not Hell on Earth by any means. It's like it's come up a lot in the world since then. And Richard has some really good points about the area at the time as well, And since he actually lives in a lot and he probably has a lot more knowledge of it than you. Yeah, so let's let's go ahead and have here his description White Chapel.

White Chapel got a bad rap at the time. I mean, there were parts of White Chapel that were horrible slums, but there were parts of White Chapel that were as good as any other parts of London. And that London had worst slums than Whitechapel, but it was White Chapel largely because of the Ripper murders. White Chapel got the press coverage, and so today when we tend to think of slum in London, we tend to focus on that area.

But there were parts of Merrily Bone, parts of notting Hill, even parts of the City of London not too long before the Ripper murder which were just as bad and in some cases even worse. But as I say, because of the press coverage, the history's focus tends to be now on Whitechapel and the East end of London as a whole got the You've got the agricultural revolution and throw people off the lands, I mean this this standard, but then you've got unemployment in it in the farmlands

of Essex and everywhere. You'd had the Irish potato famine, so you've got the people coming over the potato famine. Then it'll say programs, the Jewish eystated, and really the the whole I mean London was well, it was the wealthiest capital city in the world, as the biggest port in the world as well, so it was a massive place. But right on the doorstep of the City of London

the wealthiest square mile on Earth. You had these people living in abject poverty conditions crammed into common lodging houses and it didn't go unnoticed by a lot of people. Well, so you probably want to talk about the murders. Huh, Well, yeah, I wish probably get into the murder problems. No, I feel like the murders aren't even like the bulk of this story right now. I think we need to talk

about the victims. They're definitely important. And when you read about this story, you're gonna hear about the canonical five and those are the five main victims, and Joe kind of touched on that a little bit in the beginning. There are there's talk that there were other victims that could have been ripper victims that aren't directly attributed to him, and we're actually going to start out with one of

those victims first. Yeah, that's the thing about it. It's it's really hard to say because it's like, you know, you're living in a slum and people tend to stab each other death and the slums a lot, so yeah, yeah, they do. So the first person that we're gonna talk about, her name is Martha tabram I. Believe it's how you pronounced her last name, Taban. She was thirty nine years old, and like a lot of the women that we're going

to talk about, she'd fallen on hard times. Uh. In eighteen seventy five, her husband leaves her for her quote unquote love of the drink. For thirteen years, she's with another man. Uh he evidently used to sell trinkets, and then eventually he uh he leaves her, and she doesn't know what to do, so she kind of turns to

prostitution is a way to get by. And I guess I'll just mention, you know, it's gonna start to sound a little repetitive when do we start talking about the history of these The story pretty much goes for all of these women, they had a husband who left them or died. They were with a man for a little while, that person left them, they had to turn to prostitution. But also they were drunks, but they had to turn to prostitution, and because of that things maybe went a

little downhill. These are all these are all I think, really sad stories, you know, I mean, in their searching. A couple of these victims, it's like their lives really could have turned out a lot better. Unfortunately, alcohol was not. I'm not crustating against alcohology, you know, I love me my beer, but but yeah, and it didn't serve them well.

I think another point to make is, I can't remember the exact phrase that was used, but not all of them were what you would say called a full time prostitute. They would turn to it in times of desperation. It wasn't as if they were out working the streets all the time. A lot of them did other little things to try to make money. But when money was short and you needed a couple extra shilling, there was there was an answer. Um. And Martha here was kind of

that way. She was at a full time prostitute. But on the sixth of August she was seen out and about with another prostitute whose nickname was Pearley Paul. They all had, They all had great nicknames. They really did. Uh And these ladies evidently they were partying with a couple of soldiers or maybe they were sailors, It's unclear. And around midnight they parted ways, and Peary went with one man one way, and Martha went with the other

in the other direction. Martha took the gentleman that she was with, if she was with a gentleman, because again we're not positive, into an alley of a location known as George Yard. And I think that this is probably a good place to stop real fast and explain if anybody who hasn't been to London. It's not a grid,

it's not square blocks. It is full of tiny little alleyways and they cut in between and they twist and they turned, so there's lots of dead ends and dark places for business to happen, if you know what I mean by wink wink business. So that's what she was doing. She was going into one of these dark alleys. I was gonna say, by the way, and I've never driven in London. I've always been on foot there and had been there that much. But it's like I would hate

to drive in that town. Holy crap. Oh, it's it's insane, absolutely insane. But back then, Martha's body was officially found at four five on the seventh of August, five in the morning, at the entry of one of the buildings in George Yard. Evidently there was several buildings. Sounds like it was kind of a courtyard. But I'm not positive. Several people in the night had come home and gone through the entry and upstairs and that had come back down.

None of them saw her body. It wasn't until a man by the name of John Reeves was leaving in the morning and he came down the stairs and he realized that there was a body laying in the entry and it was in a puddle of blood. And uh, this was four forty five in the morning. There were reports of people coming in at two o'clock in the morning. Somebody left I think like to thirty or three. They didn't see her. So the window for where how she could have when she could have got there is pretty narrow.

But again, this is accounts that are over a hundred and thirty years old. Yeah, from people who were likely drunk at the time, right, and who are used to the first thing in the morning, you're not really paying attention it it's dark. You gotta remember, there's no lighting. Yeah, and you're also used to people like maybe being passed out in your stup or whatever that you know, you

would probably say, I mean, I didn't see it. I didn't recognize it as a corpse, but yeah, there was like a body I had to step over versus like, no, there was nothing there. It's probably worth remembering too that this is London eight and they didn't have street lights like we have today. It was freaking dark out, very dark, very dark. I mean I was there at night and even with modern lighting you could do one of those

alleys and it's freaking dark. The medical examiner showed up at five thirty in the morning and had placed the time of death at somewhere between two thirty to two forty five in the morning. Now this isn't modern forensics. It wasn't as if they were, you know, using a thermometer to check the body temperature or doing it had an accurate judge of lividity things like that. You know, this is kind of guesswork. Yeah, it was. It was c s I. London was kind of crude at that time.

It was very crude. Well, the way she was killed was extremely savage. She was stabbed thirty nine times. Let's see, there was five wounds in her left long, two in her right, one wound in her heart, five wounds in her liver, two in her spleen, and six in her stomach. They weren't able to identify which was like the first. No, they couldn't tell which was first. But the weird thing is that all of these wounds appeared to have come from a pen knife except for one, and that was

the one that pierced her stern um. And they said it was probably a bayonet or a large dagger. And the bayonet made him think that it played into Remember we said that she was supposedly with some soldiers. Soldier would have a bayonnet. I believe that this one was I think attributed to gang violence. Correct. They think it might have been, but it's it just was I never

got a clear read. It sounds like, I mean, you know, it sounds like to me, somebody stabbed her a bunch of times and she didn't go quite go down because she was stabbed with a little bitty knife. And then finally somebody else steps in and says, okay, could they go our time and hit you with the big bayonet. So that's interesting because then I felt it would have gone the other way that like some soldiers were drunk

accidentally like stand from the band for whatever reason. And then was like, oh crap, uh, this seems like something that could happen in the the you know, in white chapels, Like, here's a pen knife, I'll just STAB's not going to cover it up, you know sort of That's where my mind goes with, that's interesting that we're opposite. So yeah, I know, I'm thinking that I'm thinking to set somebody decided that this is not working out, let's go for the big downs here. But how old was she? She

was thirty ninety nine stabs. No, that is not necessarily Insignificand well, no, that's true, But they also don't This is one of the reasons that she's considered an outlier and they don't think that she was one of the ripper victims. Is the m O is not the same evolved. One of the things that happened in every ripper killing was the throat was cut and hers was not, and they and they stabbed her, didn't They didn't rip her open the way corre she was just stabbed to do.

She wasn't open. But we're going to get into that. I get one just like it was one final Like I'm right that like it wasn't an abandoned area. There are a bunch of people sleeping around. If you were going to like stab a lady thirty nine times whatever with a pen knife, she's going to scream and make noise. Versus if you're going to run her through the bandet and she dies and then try and cover it up,

that's going to be pretty like quiet compared pertly. I'm not gonna I want to say, though, that I swear somewhere in the reading I heard someone reported they thought they heard a scream. There's so many of that though, Like, like I witness statements are really bad, especially when it's two in the morning. Well it's not only two in the morning, but it's in like a really horrible neighborhood. Like there's drunks and like a bunch of crazy people

wandering around all the time. You think you kind of tune it out. I mean, you know, one of the victims that I'm going to talk about in a little bit here, people were like, well, I don't know, like I heard some screams in the distance kind of but like that's pretty normal. I didn't think anything of it. I think that's just kind of speaks of the time. Well, let's let's move on to the first of the canonical five, okay, and that would be Mary Ann Nichols. The first of

the canonical five. Yeah, Mary and Nichols a k A. Polly Nichols was killed five days past her forty three birthday, and that was August thirty one, I believe, eighty eight. Married. A little bit of background here, had been married, she'd had five children, but unfortunately fallen under the influence of demon rum and uh because of her alcoholism. Although their other there there's conflicting accounts as to why the marriage

broke up. There's always extenuating circumstances, the drink and yeah, yeah, yeah, so, and there were all kinds of different theories. But anyway, but it broke up about eighteen eighty one something like that, probably because of our alcoholism. But again this is in dispute. So she spent most of her remaining years between then in eighteen eighty eight when she died in workhouses and boarding houses and workhouses you probably want to know what

those are? Just gonna yeah that workhouses and yeah, exactly what boarding houses. Obviously there are places just go rent a room or rent a bed for the night or by the week or whatever. And then workhouses are places where if you're if you're poor and sort of derelict, then you're sort of grabbed and stuffed into the workhouse and kind of forced to work, but at the same time you have a place to live. It's kind of like a poor farm here in boarding. Yeah, you like

work for board you know. And and one of the things that's really crazy is gosh, in the boarding houses, I can't remember what they call it, but it wasn't always rooms that people would rent. I mean, this is just a bed. Well, they actually had what equated to rows of coffins that you would lay in and that was your itty bitty place to sleep. And then if you didn't have enough money for that for I don't remember what it was. A couple of pennies is the

phrase I'm going to use. But whatever the currency was at the time, the smallest amount it was a couple They had poe in these places, and they would tie a rope two ropes, wanted about shoulder level and one about butt height, and for a couple of pennies you could lean against that with a buch of other people and sleep on your feet. That this is how crazy the boarding houses were. Just to get a place so that you were out of the weather rough times. Um,

I'm really glad I'm not living there right now. Uh so, she uh She scratched a living mostly from just handouts, charity, prostitution, and she was of course an alcoholic and the money she made she mostly spent on alcohol. At the time of her desk, she was living at a boarding house in Spittlefields, which is a neighborhood just north of Whitechapel So onto the murder at one thirty am on August thirty one, she was booted out of her boarding house because she didn't have money to pay for her bed.

So apparently this was a pay as you go kind of basis here, you know that one Yeah, yeah, uh so, she laughed, saying she was going to earn some money on the streets to be back. The last sighting of her was at two thirty am at the corner of Osborne Street in Whitechapel Road. And I'm sure you're all familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Actually, there's a lot of maps out there that really show this quite well, so people can definitely look that up. Yeah, it's good

to help follow along, it is. It's great, you know, using Google Maps, I was able to look at that and able to chart out her course, So she was at one White Chapel Road. White Chapel Road, of course, was a fairly busy thoroughfare and actually not not as slummy as the rest of White Chapel. Apparently at that time it was reasonably good, reasonably good repair. As soon as he got off of it, things sort of went downhill,

but it was okay. Uh. So she probably was plying her trade on White Chapel Road and between where she was last seen and where she probably encountered the ripper, I'm instivating fifty ft. It's the distancing she covered between and the time she was murdered. We'll find out, we'll find later was about three am or a little bit after.

So's covering sevent d fifty feet in half an Hour's not unreasonable, now, yeah, yeah, So she was moving northeast on the on the street apparently, and I'm believing she met the ripper someplace further away, well, you know, quite a bit further away from Osborne Road. Anyway, at three forty am her body was found. There's a short little side street north of White Chapel Road called bucks Row. Now it's called Derwood Street. So if you're going to do a Google on that it's Derwoard, not bucks Row.

But she was found in a short little side street was only which is only a couple of blocks long, called bucks Row by a cart driver and he's she was laying on her back and her skirt had been raised over her head. Her throat had been cut twice from left to right. Was to me implies a right handed ripper. Do you think that makes sense? Yeah, and her act of it had been violently slashed. There was one massive jagged gash, other smaller gashes I know. Yeah.

They called a surgeon who examined the body, and he arrived at four am and 'st a minute. She'd been dead for about half an hour. His name was Dr Hanley Llewellen. He later suspected the wounds indicated a left handed ripper. And I don't know why he suspected that, because for me, I mean, when I'm looking at somebody who strode to slash from left to right, I'm thinking right hand, Hello, left to right, right to left right. Sorry, we're just standing in here. I'm just slashing at their Yeah,

he would. When you slash somebody, you're probably most likely going to do it from behind. You're gonna grab him. You're gonna pull their chin up, and you're gonna like draw the blade across the throat from behind right, probably but also maybe not. Yeah, I mean if you we'll see, if you're standing in front, then it would be the reverse because you're I would imagine that you wouldn't overhanded from right to left, you'd pull from left. You'd want to. But Joe, why do you have a knife. Oh my god,

that's how I die. So you're you're you're gonna show us. All right, So let's say let's say I'm in the ripper. Okay, first of all, if I if I, if I'm gonna slip your through from behind, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it like this. You're going to pull from your left to your right to be the victims left to right across the right. Let's say. But let's say I do it from the front. Now, the best way to do it from the front is to do it like this is to the It like runs down your the side

of your arm. Yeah, exactly, I'm not. I'm not. Essentially I'm pointing the If I'm holding my fist out in front of me, the blade is pointing downward, and then I just walk up to her and I go, why am I like this again? A left to right from her point of view? Wound? Um, If I do it, that's that's that is the best way to do. I guess the next way to do it is to grab

her hair and do this. Although I could do this, which is going from either directionard, but I mean anyway that you know, I don't want to believe with the port two point too much. I think that to me, the left to right wound indicates a right handed ripper. Dr. Llewellen, who examined that who was on the cuts, said that he's he believed that the wounds indicated that he was a left handed person. I guess it would just matter

like how deep each part. I mean, you know, right cut usually gets deeper in the way that it goes as it travels, so he would know kind of but also maybe not. Yeah, but anyway, it was a sharp it was a sharp knive. She probably died pretty quickly. Mercifully that, the rumor that the ripper was left handed persisted for pretty much forever, even though llewell And himself

expressed doubts about his own theory. Later on. The inquest into the death went on for more than three weeks after the murder because they were still bringing into evidence, they were still interviewing people from around the neighborhood and things like that. At the end, the major finding was that Marianne Nichols was murdered at just after three UM, so that would put her death about half an hour

after she was last seen. And then the next the only major thing after that, and this has nothing to do with anything, but I'll bring it up. Bring it up anyway, somebody started to rumor that somebody's name, quote leather Apron quote unquote was the killer. We're gonna talk about leather Apron more. I know, leather Apron. Yeah. Yeah.

There was a Jewish bookmaker or a Jewish bootmaker in the neighborhood named John Piser who has apparently had the nickname leather Apron, and so he was arrested of course because hey, he's Jewish, he's got a leather Apron. Although I gotta say, I do to say his nicknames, go, leather Apron is pretty damn creepy. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, that's that's like you know, the locals, it's wearing your

your work clothes. Constantly think if your garbage man, If you graberge man wears his coveralls and then just goes home, he is wearing him, goes to the grocery store, he's just wearing him, goes to the bar, he's just wearing him. It would be a little weird. So I can see how you would be like, hey, garbage man, what's up? You know? That be how that nickname starts. But it's the weird leather apron. It's just there's just something kind of there's sort of serial killerish about it, you know.

I I understand why that would arouse suspicions. Anyway, this guy was arrested and of course interrogator probably beating who the hell knows, But he later was released and actually received some settlements from a few papers that have published libelous information about him. Well, let's let's move on to our next victim, who is Annie Chapman. Annie was some kind sometimes called dark Annie. She had a full dark head of hair, and that's how she got her nickname.

But she was forty seven years old at the time of her death, and same story. She'd moved to White Chapel after her marriage had fallen apart. She had issues with drink. Uh. She was all actually getting what would equate to alimony from her ex husband, which was a amount of ten shillings a week, and also had a boyfriend.

She was living with a man. Well, when her ex found out that she was living with another man, he cut her alimony to two shillings a week, and suddenly her boyfriend evaporates because there's suddenly not this easy flow of money, because you know, ten shillings totally enough to live on. At the time, it actually wasn't it was it was okay money. I mean it didn't it didn't

get you everywhere, but at least it was something. Well, at that point she didn't have a consistent income, and as we said, she she took up casual prostitution along when doing some other words. It's just such a great term, casual prostitution. Yeah, yeah, there were so many prostitutes. How did they find their customers? I mean, I mean, if you were a john, it must have been like just I mean incredibly juicy times. I imagine that they were.

You know, there's all kinds of men in the area coming off of ships and coming in to do words. I imagine that it wasn't hard. Probably also worked pretty hard hawking their wares. Probably and I probably should have mentioned this in my description in the neighborhood too, is that it was not far north of the Thames River,

not far not far away from the docks. Yeah, well, at some point anyway, this is going to be on September eighth of uh Annie was not allowed to stay at the lodging house that she'd been at because, as we just talked about with several she didn't have the money so that she couldn't stay, so she left to go make the money. That is a that's another common theme in these these guys. Are they all go back

to there? That guys, these women all go back they get booted at because they don't have the cash, and ye next thing you know, they're dead. Not all of them.

But at some point between after five fifteen to five thirty in the morning, there's a carpenter who lived at number twenty seven Hanbury Street, and he went into the backyard of his premises and as he goes towards the door, he said he heard a woman say no. And he wasn't sure where it comes from, but he thought it was on the other side of the fence of the yard.

Then he went back in. He came out a couple of minutes later, he heard something hit the fence that divided number twenty seven, where he lived and number twenty nine, which is the next house over. What was his name, It was Albert Koch. I hope I'm pronouncing it right. Sorry Albert if I'm not, But yeah, he said, it seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly. He didn't. He didn't, however, go look and see what it was. Instead, he went back into the house and he left for work.

And that's how he said he knew what time he heard all of this because as he walked out, he looked up at the big clock tower and see what time it was. He said it was five thirty two

when he left. About six o'clock that morning. Another gentleman by the name of John Davis, who lived in twenty nine Hanbury Street, came downstairs, and when he walked out into the narrow passage, which is essentially an alleyway, he saw what ends up being any Antie Chapman and a couple of workmen come around right at that time, and he says, man come here. He is evidently what the story goes, and they found the mutilated body of Annie Chapman. Her dress was pulled up around her knees, which we

heard in the last murder. This is starting to become a bit of an m o um. A deep cut had been slashed across her throat, her intestines had been tugged out and laid across her shoulder, which is disturbing, and her uterus and her bladder had been removed, and the unse was taken with like that was our found, right, that is correct? I do not I do not remember. She was the one where I think it was the first kind of hey, maybe this person has some kind

of medical training, wasn't she? No, that's actually that comes in later on. But these organs were removed and uh, you know, as with the others, it's it is extremely grizzly. I don't know where which direction they thought her throat was cut from. I didn't catch that detail, though, I'm sure it's out there. I just didn't catch it. But that's how she was killed, which is not a nice way to die, I don't think. But at least he uh slit first before we started tearing their bodies up

a mercy. We've we've got to believe that, because otherwise you would think that the screams of agony would have been so loud people would have been caught on the first time, first try, of course. So the next victim Caniconical Canada. Canaical victim is Elizabeth Stride, and she uh is a little different than the rest of the victims. Her story. She was forty four years old and she

was from Sweden. She was killed on September eighth. She was originally married to a ship's carpenter um after a life of prostitution, so unlike many of the victims who turned to prostitution, she was pretty much prostitute the whole time. She was described by her boyfriend kind of at the time. I guess he was kind of her boyfriend at the time as having a calm demeanor except for when she started drinking. Oh yeah, I do remember that about her. She she's a little fiery when she got Yeah. Yeah.

So her husband died of TV and they had no children. Her husband, the ship's carpenter I think it would yeah, toberculosis. Sorry, And I think it was um like ten years before she came to White Chapel, however, a little like snippet

of the kind of person she was. She told, like everyone in White Chapel, that her husband Um and two of their nine children had died, died in the thinking of the Queen Anne, and that she lost all of the teeth on her left side and developed the stutter because somebody had kicked her in the faith as they

swam to safety. Yes. Uh So, after her husband died, she moved to White Chapel and turned to hooking again and had kind of an on again offgin relationship with the Jewish man Um, during which times she learned Yiddish. And this may come into play later, it will come into play. Uh And in fact, Elizabeth Stride was seen just twenty minutes prior to her discovery, the discovery of her body. Um, she'd been seen many times throughout the night, and almost all of her night was like very well

accounted for. You know, she was selling her weares, she was with different gentleman, she was drinking, she was brawling, she was drinking some more. Yeah, she was seen with three different gentlemen, and everybody kind of just assumes that she was. They were clients of hers. She was last seen rejecting the advances of a man just outside of a Jewish social club, and there was a concert that was happening in the club, but nobody said they heard

anything happen. There were a lot of people around when she died, but nobody heard anything, maybe because there was a concert hap probably, but also maybe not, It's hard to tell. One witness named Israel Shorts reported seeing Stride being attacked and thrown to the ground outside of Duke Field's Yard dut Fields Yard dut Field Yard um at about am and apparently the according to Israel Schwartz, the attacker called out Lipsky to a second man who was

standing nearby. But it was possible that there was some kind of uh anti Semitic taunt happening there because apparently there was a prisoner that was really famous at the time who was an anti Semitic who was named Israel Lipsky the corner at the time. Blackwell thought that Stride might have been pulled backwards onto the ground by her neckerchief before her throat was cut. When they found her,

her neckerchief was cut in half along with her throat. Um. Another corner later concurred that Stride was likely to have been on the ground when she was killed by a swift slash from left to right across her neck, and then there was bruising on her chest that suggested that she was pinned to the ground during her attack. So that I don't want to go I mean, you know, I feel like we don't have to go into a

lot of the grizzly details. A lot of these you can kind of assume from where the trajectory has been going, that's where we're headed. Yeah. The one thing about the Ripper is that his attacks grew more horrific as time went by. Yeah, there and every one of them that they got more savage. And we're going to talk about just a minute, pretty bad already. And this and Elizabeth Stride is one of the two of the double night Right, and she she only had her throat cut. She wasn't

fully butchered as the others were. What's led some people to suggest that perhaps because it was so busy around it, that he was interrupted in mid course. Correct, And that's what leads us to victim number four four, which would be Katherine Kate Adams. Again, a little background on Kate She's forty six years old and same story Fallen on

hard times, has issues with drinking. On Saturday, the twenty three of September, she was picked up at eight thirty at night by the local police constable because she was passed out in the road. They hauled her in. They say she's sobered up enough that they let her go around one o'clock in the morning. If I remember the story, they knew she had sobered up because they knew her. And she was sitting in her cell kind of singing, and everybody could hear and Okay, well, I guess Kate,

you're okay, let's get you out of here. The weird thing is that she didn't head in the direction of her lodging house. She kind of went in the opposite direction. There was police constable walking his route, which took him through an area known as Miter Square, and he found the body of Kate at one in the morning. His route took him through Miters Square fifteen minutes earlier, though, so one thirty came through and there was nothing there. He came through and he finds the body. That suggest

that perhaps the murder between his powers of deduction. Uh, well, here's here's what they find. And and this is this is pretty grizzly. But Um, her neck had been slit, Her thighs were naked because of course her her dress had been pulled up. Um, her abdomen was exposed. Her intestines had been pulled out and placed over the right shoulder. Um,

there was matter smeared on her cheek. A piece of her intestines, evidently about two ft long piece had been cut free and was laying next to her left worm, almost as if it had been laid there by design. Her right ear had been caught. There's a bunch of clotted blood on her. I mean, basically, she has been butchered.

And this one is so interesting, interesting because well, I mean I think that actually, Um, Richard talked a little bit about this too, in terms of that, you know, we just said there was like fifteen minutes this happened, like truly, this all of everything that Steve just said happened in fifteen minutes. Yeah, and she was still warm, the body was still war which tells you it was minutes ago. Yeah. But when you think about it, it wouldn't take that much time. I mean, you split her,

throw up, throw on the ground. You know, basically stabber, ripper, open reaching, rip out, some oregans, lay him on the ground. It wouldn't take any time at all, really, well theoretically, I mean, it could have been quick and clean. It could have been quick and messy, could have been any of that. It's hard to say. I think there's some some details that aren't nearly as gory that are probably pertinent that we can share. And Richard helped kind of

walk us through that. And and let's let's hear what he said about that. Yeah, what happened was Elizabeth Stride's body was found at one o'clock in the morning, and she was found in Duckfield Yards off Burning Street. She was found by a man named Louis Deemschutz, who had come back to the yard from he'd been hawking cheap jewelry. But he was the steward of a work on the Polish and Jewish working Men's Club Socialist Club that was

in Duckfield Yard. And as he came into the yard, his pony shied and pulled aside, and he looked into the dark and he saw something lying on the ground. So his first thought was it it was just something lying there, so he reached over to lift it with his horse with his whip, and he couldn't, so he jumped down and struck a match and it was a woman. Now his next action is that no one's really ever explained it. He presumed it was his wife and she

was drunk. To investigate, to check on his wife, and he found his wife in the kitchen, and that's when he went to the other members and he said it there was a woman downstairs, and she's drunk or she's dead, I'm not certain which. So they went down and that they found that her throat had been cut, and it was in fact a murder victim, but the rest of her body hadn't been mutilated, which was the murder's opera

endi of the Ripper killings. So this led the police to surmise that the ripper had been interrupted, that when he come into the yard, he'd actually interrupted the ripper, and the ripper had jumped back, and it was that sudden movement that startled the pony, which caused it to shy. And then whilst amshus in the yard, and fact, it dawned on him later that day that the ripper was probably hiding alongside him in the dark yard. So had he acted differently at that point, the chances are would

have been taken. But he presumed it was his wife and went into the club, which gave the ripper those for minutes or even seconds to get out of the yard, and he headed for the city of London, which is where he met Catherine Etto's now her body was found forty five minutes later in Miter Square, which is no great distance away from Berna Street. You could even walk it in in less than ten minutes, so her body

was found there. It was just as I say, two murders, and that became known as the Night of the Double Murder. But there is a belief or a theory that Elizabeth Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because she was actually seen being attacked by a man called Israel Schwartz fifteen minutes before her body was discovered, So some people think that

she was actually a coincidence, not a victim. And bizarrely, some some historians even referred to her as Lucky list Stride because she only had a throat cut, the rest of the body wasn't mutilated. That I say, what's lucky about that? Exactly like guys, lucky he didn't get this is it? And I said, that's the night. Probably he came closest to being caught, but say that, don't damn should didn't didn't say he left the scene and that gave the rip of the time he needed. Next up

is the last of the canal five. We'll just cut that. So Mary Kelly, she was found well murdered uh November nine eight and she uh was like only twenty five years old, which is, um, if you've been following along, quite young for this kind of spate of murders. And there's no really good information about her life prior to eighteen eight seven. Uh. Mostly it's just like conjecture or like what she told people. Um. She was probably married at sixteen to a coal miner who died like three

or four years later in a mine explosion. She was probably from Ireland, but beyond that the facts are pretty few and far between. After her husband's death, she took to prostitution. Apparently she was really really attractive, but it's a little bit of a mystery as to like what she actually looked like. Um. She had a couple of different nicknames. One was Dark Mary, but they think that probably that had to do more with um, the type of personality she was when she was drunk, then with

her appearance. She probably had blonde or red light red hair. Um, she was fair. They called her fair every once in a while. She had a lot of nicknames. I don't even want to go there. She was described as um very quiet, a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy when drunk or when in drink excuse me, by the man that she was living with at the time of her death. But also I'll note that's why I believe that she's Irish, because I am Irish too. I am I well to be fair, I'm noisy all the time.

I'm not it once sober. We're gonna dive into this and this one, as Joe was mentioning, they just keep getting worse and worse. This one's rough. Um. By most accounts, after a long night of multiple sightings with multiple men, Mary was probably seen with a man whose description uh is inadmissible to me because it was clearly false, but fine entering her room in a boarding house. I say it was false because it was a man by the name of George Hutchinson, who we're going to talk about

in a little bit who was friends with Mary. Um he met her at two am. She said, Hey, I'm broke,

Can you give me some money? And he said no, I'm broke too, and then they like parted ways, but he creepy watched her leave and uh met with somebody who George said it was a man, another man, and she said he said that she seemed to know him, but the man was dressed really well for the area, so he, being a good samaritan m George followed her and this man back to Mary's house uh and watched the house for like an hour and provide the police

with an i possibly detailed description, including like eyelash color which he could totally see of this. Yeah, from like twenty yards away. Absolutely, so there's been a whole lot of kind of stuff there. But the story is probably at least partially true because another woman who lived in the boarding house said that she saw when she came home at like two thirty am, there was a man standing across the street watching the house. So that's yeah,

that was Hutchinson. That's creepy either way, it doesn't really matter. There are a few reports of Mary being around at like eight am or ten am the next morning, but pretty much those are false. The corner said that her her time of death was between two and eight am, which is a wide range, but the mutilation that she sustained after death was definitely a couple hours worth of work. I don't want to go into too much detail about this.

We've been doing lots of Grewsome stories this whole time, and we've already talked about some grewsome stuff this but like this takes the cake. I mean, no one in the house heard any commotion to signify when she might have been killed. But she was killed with a slash to her throat. Probably it was quick and quiet. The rest is really awful. Her clothes were neatly folded on a chair next to her bed, which means that maybe it was a john that she brought home. She was

likely um asleep. They think she was asleep when her throat was cut, um, signifying that the person was in there with her. However, um her room in the boarding house didn't. She lost the key, so she broke a window and just like would read gin and unlock it, so it could have been somebody who gained access later. Her mutilation is horrifying. Body parts removed, all kinds of cuts, gouges, runs the gamut. You really want to know about that,

there will be Yeah, just google her. There are pictures to Another nice little tidbit fact is that there was apparently like a really large fire in her You know, they've had stoves in their rooms and there had been some clothing burned to provide light. Foresaid mutilation. So that's,

you know, my might might think. My take on that is that the the murder probably had his clothing soaked with blood, did a quick change of clothes, and then just through the clothes in, which is even more disturbing because that means he brought a change of clothes in

banding to get that wild. Yeah, but she was she was living on and off with a man, So there it's possible that there were other most or as as I think somebody has mentioned, there's also the theory that perhaps Jack ripperd dressed as a woman when coming and going from these things too. That was Yeah, that was Jack London or who was it knows Arthur Conan Doyle had come up with that. Yeah, and I believe that

maybe he just borrowed some of Mary's clothes. I mean it would explain why, like nobody saw anything unusual leaving the women's boarding house that she lived in. But yeah, not a nasty little murder. And then we we've got one more outlier that we're just going to cover up. Briefly, this is related sort of maybe I don't really know. This is Francis coles um ak a Francis Coleman. Francis Hawkins also noticed charity. Now, uh yeah, I don't know where that came from. But she she was someone like

Marianne Nichols and all the others. Her life was unapproved by alcohol. She was a prostitute in the Whitechappell area for reportedly about eight years preceding her death. And on the day preceding her death, she had been bar hopping with the emergencyman named James Sadler who was arrested and and they they actually tried to uh send her prison for her murder, but it didn't work out that way

because he had a pretty good alibi. Looking into that a little bit, this is real quick, because I don't think this is even related to the ripper she liked many of the others. Went went back to her lodging house where she had been staying. She was booted out because she didn't have cash to pay for her bed for that night, and so she wound up back on the streets looking to earn a little money so she could sleep for the night, and she bumped into a

fellow prostitute named Ellen Klena or Colina Colinna. I don't know how her neighbor was pronounced, we'll say Klena. Anyway, A man approached them. He propositioned Klena and uh, he apparently made her spider sense tank and she said he wouldn't have sex with her, and so he punched her in the face. Why didn't I know? What a great guy? And then propositioned Frances Coles, and Coles left with him. Well,

well that's not good judgment, do you think I mean? Well, at two fifteen a a m Her body was discovered by a constable named Ernest Thompson. There was a railway art and she her body was in there, and she was still alive. Her body had been her throat had been slit from ear to ear. She was bleeding profusely, but he noticed that her one eye opened and closed, so she was still alive. At that time. He blew his whistle for more help and all that stuff, and

they won't got a doctor. But of course she died because she bled out yeah yeah, but uh, it doesn't look like she was really she's part of the White Chappel murders, but the murder was not really the same. Yeah, you know, it's just it's just that one piece was left.

She wasn't mutilated, although then again it's possible because the constable reported that when he was approaching the crime, seeing you're retreating footsteps that sounds like a man's footsteps running away, and so it's possible that interrupted again he interrupted the interrupted the crime, and that maybe it was a ripper. But here's why I don't think it was. Okay, Uh yeah, James Sadler was released because witnesses that seeing him and

he was a merchant seaman. He was seen between two and three am, and it was too drunk to commit the murder because he had been bar hopping with her the night before. Uh, the reason I don't think so it is no mutilation, although again there's extenuating certain necessary. Also, she was killed with a blunt knife and the Medical Examber reported that the ripper used a sharp knife. This was a blunt knife. So okay, there you go. Well that that is seven victims total that we've taught about.

And I think, you know, things that I hadn't thought about was the lives of these women at the time, the things they go through. And I know it's sad, it's very sad, and and they're they're kind of in this story, as Richard said, he said, they're they're kind of the forgotten piece of the story of who they were, and he brings up some really good points, and so I want to share that with everybody. I think the the other important thing is that I mean, I think

the victims. I think the victims often become from one of a better way of putting the forgotten victims in the case, because we just got the names of these women. But what they virtually all of them full of a

similar pattern. And it was a really tragic pattern in that I wouldn't say they came from wealthy families, but they certainly came from you know, they weren't policy stricken women, but they all become alcoholics, and it was a sort of a downward spiral that they then their marriages have broke down, they've been sometimes ostracized from their families, and then they ended up in the East End of London, living transient existence in the common lodging houses. So they

weren't prostitutes by choice, they were prostitutes by necessity. And I think that's the thing. That we've got tragic victims who often get overlooked, and I think that's the case. And also the fact that he was the world's first real media murderer. I mean, it's often said he's the world's first serial killer, which is not true, but he's certainly the first one where the press start to realize this, this is capturing people's imaginations, and so the press start

going to town on it. And what's interesting is that over that ten week or so period, when when the murders are really grabbing the attention and terrifying people and shocking people, the newspapers are coming out several times a day reporting on what's going on, the latest finds, and they're bringing all this salacious detail to their readers, and suddenly you've got they must go over the top. And when Mary Kelly gets murdered, it seems she's the last victim.

It seems that the press realized they've gone too far, and it's almost as there were lights which has been switched off and it stops it that the salacious detail eases off and then interest is lost. But for that ten or so a week period, we've got this opportunity.

I can't think of any other period in history where you can look at a specific part of a major city in anywhere really, but in a major city in England in this case, you can look at a tiny part of that area and because of the newspaper reportage, get an insight if you like, it's a window into the past, and just look at the daily lives of the people living through the horror of the jack that of the murders. We've we've covered the victims. Now something else that we need to talk about is the actual

activity to the police. Yeah, they wus right exactly now, they did just go for douch instant. By the way, in the nineteenth century, I don't think they I don't think the donut existed. I think it might have accidentally been made. But I believe that is a dunkin Donuts creation. Okay, I know it's not a dunkin Donuts creation. Please nobody said a scathing emails I was making that up. It's a joke. But let's let's talk about the police and something that people need to understand about the time in

the area. There was not one police force. There was actually two police forces in operation that we're trying to catch Jack the ripper. There is the Metropolitan Police and then there's the City of London Police. The murders of Mary Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Mary Kelly all took place in White Chapel and Spittle Fields, which was not really actually in London city limits, correct, that was

outside of it. So that was the jurisdiction of the Metro Police of Metropolitan Police, and they were investigating those four murders. Katherine Attos, however, when she was killed in Miter Square, that's inside of the City of London, so her her death came under the City of London Police.

And here's here's how the how this works is when London was first created, and we're going back to Roman times because London was a Roman outpost and at that time they call it the Golden Mile because Rome had built this and London was a one basically a one mile square and they had built walls around it, and the Thames ran through the middle and these walls. I've seen remnants of these walls, and we're not just talking about a brick wall. We're talking about six to eight

feet thick and upwards of funny feet high. All commerce happened inside of the wall, so that's why they called it the Golden Mile, and everything else everybody lived in. All the work happened outside of that area. So if you ever happen to get a chance to go there and see these walls, they're fantastic. The pieces that are still there are amazing history because there are thousands of years old in the middle of a freaking giant city. And I thought I didn't see those in London, but

I saw it when I was in Chester, England. There's that was also another Roman walled city, and there's remnants of the wall is still there and it's it's it really is incredible to think that this is like back to the times before Christ. It's amazing. Yeah, well, these you know, these these policemen, they are doing a lot of work. You got police constables that Bobby's basically that are on their route and they walk their route to keep an eye out. Jack the Ripper murders hit, they

are suddenly inundated with work. And this is back in the day again, like we said, no cars. Everybody's on foot or maybe not a horse, and you gotta track everything down. So it is tons and tons of work, and there's a little evidently there was a little bit of bad blood between the two police forces. It wasn't

like they really worked together. And there's a lot of things where guys, you know, as I know one of us had said at some point or maybe it comes up later, they named their suspects, but they're all naming different suspects, so people weren't really working together. So though I know they were trying to do good, it wasn't the most organized search and investigation that I've seen. That is,

and that is like really typical. I mean, they've heard many stories and things like serial killer investigations here in America where the local police department gets really really territorial with the FEDS, like the FBI comes in and stuff like that. There's a lot of bad blood. It's so it's it's part of the course. Well do you know who else was trying to do good? The White Chapel vigilance committee. Oh yeah, that's right. Those guys, do you

talk about them? Yeah? Yeah. They were trying real hard to do good. They were comprised of like fourteen area businessmen, tradesmen, one actor, and they were formed out of quote a concern not for the women who were being killed and mutilated, but the impact the killings were having on the commerce in the areas. On September tenth eight, which may have been a bit late. Uh, they elected their chairman, who was local businessman George Lusk, who becomes fairly important in

a minute. I'll talk about this in just like a second. Here. They were interviewed by lots of local papers. Uh. They encouraged the police to issue a reward for information, and when the police were like nah, they were like, all right, we'll do it. So they he put a bunch of posters up trying to inform people, saying, you know, any information that leads to the arrest of this person, we will give you a regard. Yes, it was not a

whole lot. And actually after the death of Elizabeth Stride, the committee decided that they were unhappy with the level of protection that the police were offering, so they created their own citizen patrol Force and employed to private detectives. But George Lusk in October of was the recipient of one of the famous Ripper letters. In fact, it gets a little worse than that. It was a nice little bit. It's a nice little bit of of ripper lore. It's

the from Hell letter. Yeah, this is very popular. Yeah, so uh. He returned home to find a small package in the mail. Upon opening it, he found half of a human kidney and a note that read from Hell, Mr Lusk, s O R. I send you half the kidney I took from one woman per praised it for you. The other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice. I may send you the bloody knife that took out took it out if only you wait a while longer, signed catch me when you can miss your lux Lusk.

You should, if you want, you should go out and read it. It's there's so many misspellings in here. I can't even it's awesome. Well I've seen a copy of the original two and it's it's almost illegible to Yeah, Mr Lusk, he was pretty sure it was a hoax actually, and so he was like, yeah, just throw it away.

But he told a couple of his fellow committee members, and they said, well, actually, maybe we should take that to the police, and he said, all right, fine, So they took it the police and it kind of just fades into lore from that point. There's a lot about the letters, and I don't think that we're actually going to talk too much about the letters. Um, I think that our interview with Richard shed some really good light

on the letters. Yeah, the letters, I think typically in situations like this, usually all kinds of cranks write letters, and so it's really hard were you know, journalists or whatever. But this one particularly sticks out because it did have that half a human kidney, which follows quickly after another letter, you know, and I don't I didn't take notes on this. I just kind of vaguely read about it. So I'm

doing this from memory at this point. But there was another letter that wasn't released that was right before Lusk got it. Uh, this package with a letter that said that they were the ripper or whoever sent the letter claimed they were going to send half a kidney to somebody, and then a couple of days later, half a kidney

showed up. So there's some there's a little bit of evidence to suggest that perhaps there was some of them were legitimate, but there were, you know, as Richard talked about, and actually we should probably just let him talk about it. There's there's so many letters that it's hard to kind

of suss out what's real and what's not. Yeah, and plus but you know, also if you're planning us a crank letter with half a kidney in it to some person, then it's not that hard to like plan at all and send out a letter saying you're going to send Hafrican is somebody's several days prior to that. I mean it really, you know, that still doesn't prove anything to me. Now that the letters, well, first of all, I mean one of the things we have to differentiate between is

the White chapp Or murderer and Jack the Ripper. I often said Jack the Ripper was the man who never existed because he didn't. He was the creation of a letter writer. And that was the famous dear Boss Lenser. I keep on hearing the police have court me, but they won't fix me just yet. And it goes on to gloat over the murders, and then it signed Jack the Ripper. Now the letter arrived where it entered the investigation when the police were getting a lot of press criticism.

So the police made the letter public in the hope that it would give them a breakthrough, and very soon they realized they've made a massive mistake because once the letter went public, it gave the murderer a name, that name Jack the Ripper, and so the media throughout the world latched onto that name and it almost turned it into a sort of a pantomime on the streets of

the East End of London. And the other effect was that when that letter went public and it was signed Jack the Ripper, hoaxes throughout the land began reaching for their pens and the police become became swamped with this a tidal wave of Ripper correspondence. So there were lots,

and we're not just talking one letter. We're talking lots of letters that were coming in because every one of them had to be investigated and assessed and if ever positive, if it was possible, to followed up, and it brought the police investigation almost to a standstill. It had the opposite effect that what the police had wanted, It gave

them more more false information they needed. But the letter itself, the police at the time and a lot of experts today are convinced it was the work of the journalist who actually did it, probably just to keep paper papers selling, but it certainly did turn five sword least then murders into an international phenomenon and gave birth the legend of

Jack the Ripper. So another kind of issue that uh, we wanted to bring up is kind of it has the potential to be an inflammatory issue, and that's fine, is that there was a lot of anti Semitism happening in London at this time. There's I mean, you know, and Richard talks about this little bit and we'll we'll

let him talk about it in a minute. But you know, after the double event on thet um police of course, just like you, just were scouring the area for clues and at about three am a constable found a bit of bloody cloth like a shawl the apron. It was a piece of the apron excuse me that was apparently later to be confirmed as part of Katherine at ows ETOs apron excuse me, And above it written in chalk was either the Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing, or the Jews are not the

men to be blamed for nothing. Um Jews is spelled j u w e s. There are are a couple different police officers who responded to this. They all wrote down different things that this said. And I guess here is where we need to back up a little bit to the Mary Ann Nicholas murder. Nichols murder and the rumors about her killer being Um, the Jewish man named uh leather Apron. This was not a particularly good time

for Jews in London, no matter what. There were a lot of them, A lot of them were in this kind of White Chapel slum area, and as Richard kind of talked about, their influx kind of coincided with these murders. And I think that everybody could pretty much agree that like this is totally circumstantial. It doesn't actually say anything

about Jewish people on the whole. But of course, if there's a new group of people in an area and then things that people have never seen before start happening, they're going to blame the new people for the new thing.

And there were a lot of Jews from Eastern Europe who who would come into the area absolutely and a ton of Irish that had also recently come into the area too, sure, but I think you know, one of the things that's really handy about the like Eastern European Jews that come into the country is that they all speak Yiddish or their native language, not English, so it's very it's so it's kind of the human nature of it to just say like, well, those people are different. Well,

it alienates them from you and you from them. So well, there's also the blood libel thing too, you know, the I mean, there were there are lots of really really nasty stereotypes about Jews and it's circulated in Eastern Europe for years, the blood libel being you know what that is that the Jews had would would kidnap and exanguinate Christian children and use their blood to make mots of

like matza cakes. So yeah, yeah, well there's but there's the other aspect of this as well, where we kind of get into the the potential of police may have apprehended the ripper and there was one credible witness, but they were both Jewish, and it is part of Jewish law that you can't testify against each other. So there's there's that aspect of it as well. There is that actually part of Jewish law. Yeah, yeah, it's in the Bible.

There's also some kind of weird things with the translation of this statement because there's a double negative and there's a huge misspelling. So there are some people that think that with the double negative, the phrase means was was meant to mean that the Jews would not take responsibility for anything. There are also people who suggest that Jews spelled that way is actually like a slang word for two, which I don't know what that would make that whole

thing mean. There's also some kind of like massionic Freemason interpretation there no matter what, and you know all that Richard kind of tell us because he tells it better. It was destroyed before there could be a good record. You know, photographs existed at the time, but there's no

photographs of this graffiti. And you know, Richard says, why So when that message was found, Sir Charles Warren, who was the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, he was horrified because at six o'clock that morning, you were going to have the Petticoat Lane Market around that doorway, and it was going to bring hundreds of gentile buyers or even thousands into an area and to a market that was staffed largely by Jewish storeholders, and how the building where he was

found that was Jewish flats as well. So what he thought was, if that's on the wall in the morning, we're going to have riots that were innocent Jews will be will be attacked by the mob. So he destroyed the message, he had it raised before anybody could see it the next morning, and that's fed into the conspiracy that Sir Charles Warren, being the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, that he's done it to cover the fact that the Jewey's might have been reference to a Masonic ritual. But it

probably was. I mean, the different officers who saw it's some said it looked faded as they've been there for some time. My personal belief is it was coincidence. It was already in the doorway. Ripple just happened to drop the apron in that doorway. What's not often pointed out is that there was lots of racist graffiti against the Jews going up in the streets at the time because they were scapegoats. So it's probably just a piece of

that graffiti. But it feeds nice the way the fact the misspelling the ju W e s it's that misspelling that's seen it turn up as part of the Masonic ritual and stuff like that, So you don't he probably don't think the Reppert was Jewish, then, right, I I think he might well have been. I certainly because Metzki was certainly po po polished jew so him and his

family had come over. And I think, actually it says one thing we don't know about the police from quite early on, when when they realized that if they kept pushing that that this this theory they were looking for sort of a Jewish immigrant, this could lead to anti Jewish rioting and programs, and innocent people would be killed.

So I think if the police did catch him and he was Jewish and they couldn't try him so you had to go to an asylum, I think the police probably would have covered it up because they would have had full scale rioting in the East End and innocent people would have died. So I think from that point of view, the police show themselves to be quite enlightened. So I think there's a good possibility that he was as I say, And if it was Aaron kause Minsky, which of all the suspects, I mean he's up there.

Because the two highest ranking officers seemed to believe, definitely believed he was the killer, then I think we have to believe it, but say it's interesting and had they revealed it and then said, well, we're not going to prosecute because he's going to an asylnum and we haven't got the evidence that we need that they would have had rioting, and I think that's what the police were

terrified of. Now we get to the part of the story where we look at the suspects of who could have done this, some of the some of the and there's there there's a huge smattering of potential and I emphasize the word potential suspect. I want to like suffice to say that there is an entire Wikipedia article dedicated only to the suspects in this case, and it is huge.

It includes George Clooney, by the way. Well, here's the thing is that we we brought up a couple of questions to Richard that he had some really good input on. And the things that that we wanted to kind of find out was one, why did the ripper do it? You know, what was his motivation? Um? And then the next was of course, why are there so many suspects? And like I said, he had some really good things to say. To be honest, I don't think there was a motive. I think it was just purely for the

pleasure of the kills. There's all sorts of theories, the theories that he he had been he had caught a disease off a prostitute, and he was his revenge. There's a theory that he wanted to rid the East End of prostitution. There's a wonderful theory that George Bernard Shaw first put forward that he was a social reformer and he did the murders to expose the horrible conditions in the area. So, which is an intriguing one progressive this

is it. He was just saying, you know, and no one's listening, so that I'll do something that will make people sit up and take notice. And they certainly did sit up and take notice. But really I just think he was just probably some nobody living in the area. He had he had voices in his head and every sort, and those voices got too much and he went out

and murder. And for the rest of the time he was probably somebody who people living next door people who saw him thought, you know, he's eccentric, but he's harmless, and and that was it. And that's often what these serialal has turned out to be. It's often when when they brought to justice, or if they're brought to justice, it's often the last person you've ever expected it to be. So you were saying, you kind of think the voices in his head. That kind of leads me to think

maybe something like schizophrenia. Yes, as I say, it could go in any form of illness, schizophrenis seems highly likely. The interesting about kause Minski is that we from what we know of him when he is in the asylum, he's not in the In fact, he's put down as non violent, so he just doesn't seem the sort of the sild who would did. However, after stress that the kause Mensky we know is the Kazminski from eight one onwards.

We don't know what he was like in eight Uh, you know, he could have his condition could have deteriorated by eighteen ninety one a great deal. But the only violence he's ever put it was shown to have done, is to throw a chair at an attendant the asylum. So he doesn't seem home assylum, and there's other suspects who most certainly were homicidal. So it's it's interesting. We'll say it's just one of those things that we'll just never know. I'm just curious why why has the list

of potential suspects grown so exponentially. The main the main reason is because he wasn't caught, So anybody can come up with a person. I mean, what what a lot of writers do is they get their suspect and then they make the facts that their suspect. There's very few writers actually do it the other way around, which is what should be done. Get the facts and then sorry, get the facts and then look at who the facts

lead to. The point is if you go to a publisher and so I want to write a book on Jack the Ripper, They're only really consider you if if you've got a suspect, and the more dramatic the suspect is, then the more chance you've got that book being published and you know, and then the book becoming a best seller. So, like I said, that's that's that's a lot of good information. And I really like the points that that Richards brought up. Now we're gonna look at a couple of the suspects,

again are too many to really go into. We're gonna go into a couple of them, and we're not going to talk about the royal family or anything like that. Well maybe I actually I I'm gonna go into that one a little bit because I find that one fun. It is fun. It's a fun lark and the things that that that get brought up are pretty humorous. But let's let's not go there yet. So let's start off with the first one that we've got on our list,

which Montague John Drew. Yeah. Uh, Montague, who, by the way, I don't believe was the killer, but let me but he's still believed by some people to be the killer. Uh. He was from an upper class background. He studied at Oxford worked as an assistant schoolmaster, and while he was doing that, he studied law and he became a barrister in eighteen eighty five U and for reasons unknown and November eighteen eighty eight he lost his job at the

school where he was a school of monster for reasons unknown. Again, as I said in on December thirty one, eight eight, his body was found in the Tamas River. Unfortunately, he had stones in his pockets, which apparently it kept his body submerged for about a month. So he apparently went into the river early in December, and he was thirty one at the time of his death. And that wasn't just just as another bit of history, that was not uncommon at that time for people to go into the

Thames and not be found for a while. And the Thames is a very nice, relatively clean river today, was not at the time. Again, as Joe talked about tanneries, breweries, all these things, all of their in open sewers, all dumping into the Thames. So it's a nasty river. So nobody wants to go looking for someone they think might have gone into the river because you don't know it, you'll come back out. Yeah, and I'm sure it reeks. People probably didn't even want to get close to the

river back not safe drinking water. Yeah. Yeah. The contents of his pockets, he had a train ticket data December one. He had sixteen pounds that's that's British pounds, not sixty pounds of gold, but he had sixteen He had gold worth sixteen pounds British or sterling. I guess would be a bit way to put it. And he also had a check for fifty pounds. Uh. And by the way, this was a lot of money in those days. Yeah, And so he was carrying a lot of cash that

was that was still in his pockets. Yeah, in the pockets. Yeah. So he was a robbery and murder was obviously not amotive here. Um. He his state was valued at about a quarter of a million dollars pounds in today's numbers. So uh, financial privation was probably not a motive for the suicide. If he wasn't indeed a suicide. It was ruled suicide after the inquest. Apparently his family had depressed

a mental issues. His grandmother committed suicide, his attempted suicide, his sister later long after his death, killed herself, and also there was a note that he left which read quote, since Friday, I felt that I was going to be like mother and the best thing for me to do

was die. So I'm thinking that perhaps he actually did commit suicide, but his death coincided with the end of the Ripper murders, which is why sometime after the fact that it didn't have it right away, but eventually years later people started putting two and two together and saying, hey, golly, he killed himself right at the same time the murders ended. I don't believe that there's no cred I just don't believe there's any credible evidence that he was actually the Ripper.

What do you guys think, any any opinions there? The timing is the convenience. But yeah, and if we're going by like people who died around the same time exactly, there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people I know exactly. And so I think it's a kind of a slander on this guy's memory that he's been suggested as possibly being the Ripper, because there's absolutely no evidence for it. But and yet still he is considered

to be a prime candidate as the Ripper, unbelievably. So the next candidate that we've got is a gentleman by the name of Michael ostrog And he wasn't a suspect again, kind of like Montague, he wasn't a suspect that came out right away. Instead, he came up several years later from a letter that was written that's been referred to or or called now the MacNaughton memoranda. The memoranda says Michael ostrog a mad Russian doctor and a convict, and

unquestionably a homicidal maniac. This man was said to have habitually been cruel to women and and for a long time was known to have carried about with him surgical knives and other instruments. His antecedents were the very worst, and his whereabouts at the time of the White Chapel murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for what he might have been unstable, but nobody could ever pin the name on him. And again, as it was, he came up

later on. But he was a petty criminal. So this is my again, this is my issue with him being called the suspect. He was a petty criminal. He was never known to be a violent criminal. He was in and out of jail for petty theft, but never murder.

And he was arrested for theft in July of eighteen eighty seven and sentenced to six months of hard labor, So that's from September eight eight seven forward, released on March tenth of eighteen eighty eight, So this is before the murders happened, and he was quote unquote cured of his petty theft habit. Well, the problem is is that he not too long after that, was arrested and sentenced to two years in prison for theft in Paris on the eighteenth of November, which is before the killing stop.

So that's why I have a problem with with Ostrog being keyed in as one of the major suspects. Yeah, that would make sense. Okay, so much for your week, candidate. Let me give you another week candidate here. George Chapman. George Chapman was also known as the Burrow poisoner. He was He was a Polish London with an unpronuncible name. His his last name was I'm not going to pronounce his entire full name, but the surname was Klausowski or Klosowski.

I think, yeah, there's lots of kind Klosowski. I think that there's the best way to pronounce it. But he was arrested supposedly, and I've got conflicting information about this, and he was supposed he was arrested in question regarding the Ripper murders. He had training and surgery and warsaw and worked there as a doctor's assistant until about December eighteen eighty six and to the best of our knowledge, he arrived in London in eighty eight. He married while

he was in London. Apparently liked to play the field. He had several mistresses, three of whom he murdered by poison later on. This is well after the whole track the Ripper thing was done. The murders took place in nineteen o one and nineteen o two. An investigation into the last murder Fount revealed that the death was due

to poison. So the bodies of the previous mistresses were exhumed and tested, and well, it turns off he poised in them too, and so he was tried for the murder of the last one, whose name was Maud Marsh and I was convicted and was hanged in April nineteen o three. So why is he suspected to be the Ripper? Well,

here are the reasons. A Scotland or detective name Frederick Aberleine said that he was his chief suspect, and the reasons were that he had questioned his wife and the wife told police that he would often go out for night or at night for hours on end. Another reason is that he arrived in Whitechapel at about the same time the murders began and left to go to America about the same time that the murders ended. His description matched out of the mass and the man last seen

with Mary Keller Kelly, which we've talked about. Yeah, the description is uh, you know, to my mind, kind of bogus. Yeah. Uh, he was violent and this is kind of documented. He was misogynistic. Okay, So again, Frederick Aberlein, the Scotland er detective, said that for those reasons, he believed that he was the best ripper suspect. But I think it's pretty thin. I mean, as far as him going out at night for hours on end, well, the guy was a philanderer,

of course. Of course he left to go out for a night, you know, and and have sex with his mistresses. Of course he did so. And that doesn't really mean anything to me as far as the other stuff goes. I mean, it's just none of it really is much in the way of Evans. Well, sorry, he's a weak candidate. Are you guys ready for a strong candidate? Yeah, he's already Yeah, are ready? Aaron Kosminsky, I've heard of this guy. Yeah,

you may recognize him. He's the one who like a couple of months ago, DNA evidence quote proved was the ripper. He was a Russian Polish barber. He emigrated to England in the eighteen eighties, and he did indeed live in White Chapel in eighty eight and he was Jewish. I'm gonna go ahead and like give it up front, modern detectives,

this is my like big problem with him. Modern detectives aren't sure that this is like that Cosminsky is the Cosminski that police suspected back in the eighteen late eighteen nineties. But I'll talk about that in a little minute. Kase Minsky was in and out of a sane asylums and

institutions most of his life. One could assume that, like in this day and age currently and you know, the teens, if somebody was in and out of mental institutions, they wouldn't then be allowed to like be barbers moments like around people's next But these were different days, um, and you know, his insanity took the form of auditory hallucinations, paranoid fear of being fed by other people that actually was so bad that it drove him to pick up and eat food that people dropped as litter and he

refused to wash uh, and the cause of his insanity was cited as um self abe. Yeah, that which we now know, let's be honest, is not like so much cause of insanity as like sanity. Yeah exactly. But yeah, the that was that was I mean, when I was a kid, I mean, self abuse was supposedly got to create issues for you. Yeah. So in February of eight year, nineteen nineteen, self abuse, masturbation. Yeah, okay, I'm just making

sure I understood. Not that I'm trying to make dis gratuitous, but I just wanted to make I understood your story looks on your face like self abuse wink. Okay, in a story where we've talked about a man cutting uteruses out of women, masturbation, that's a bridge too far. That's a bridge too I can see it. Though. It's kind of like it's kind of like the gateway drug to like mass murder and stuff like that. So I guess.

In February of nineteen nineteen, kause Minsky, he was institutionalized at this point, had been for a number of years. His illness had driven him down to a startling ninety six pounds, and he died in March of that year in in a mental institution. Right, So, the Cosminsky connection to the Ripper murders wasn't really established until a couple of years later when people were going through old records.

Um A constable apparently in nineteen eighteen ninety four wrote a lotter to his daughter saying that Cosminski had been a suspect that no first name had been given. The letter stated that Cosminski was a suspect because he had quote a great hatred of women with strong homicidal tendencies. And I'll be honest, nothing in any records of of Aaron Cosminski, the man that we're talking about right now, suggests that he was violent in any way. The only little spate of violence he had was he threw a

chair at a nurse once. And he was in and out of institutions a lot. Most records say that he was kind of um, yeah, he was like he was actually scared of people a little bit. He didn't he was actually scared, you know, as I said, he was scared of like people, He didn't want to be fed, like, he was scared of interacting on like an emotional level with other human beings. He didn't ever attack anybody. He would just kind of like would sit in his cell

and be quiet a lot. A few years later, Commissioner wrote a book in which he said that the ripper was a low class Polish Jew. And um, before we even get into the DNA evidence part, uh doctor's notes. As I said, I'll describe Kasminski as harmless. Also, he spoke mostly Ish when he was locked up, which indicates that his English was likely not very good. Um, which means that it would have probably been pretty hard for him to lure women into alleys, to be a john

of any kind. But you the other the other big thing for me is that Aaron Cosminski wasn't put away until eight um, and the murder stopped in That's kind of key, yeah, he the murders should have gone on for longer. Yeah. And then we come to the DNA evidence part of this, and I guess we'll let Richard explain a little bit about what the DNA evidence is about, and then I'll I'll talk about it a little bit after. You know, he kind of describes how the evidence quote

evidence came about to begin with. He can do it way better than I can, you know. And for the DNA evidence. I loved when we when we asked Richard that question, his initial response was my favorite party. I was hoping you wouldn't ask that one. We have to

the DNA. It's the evidence is interesting. Basically, it's a shoal that purports to be the show that Katherine knows was wearing, and it was reportedly found next to her body, picked up my police officer and taken home, and it's passed down through generations of the family and finally it was auctioned in I believe it was two thousand and seven when it was bought by Russell Edwards, who's the man behind the new book on it, and he then had it subjected to DNA testing and he then matched

the DNA to a descendant of Katherine Eddo's. It was a descendant of Aaron Kazminski. The only problem is he hasn't told us. He's refusing to say who the descendant of Aaron Kasmnski is, so historically we can't really check

the veracity of that. It purports that on the shore they found our Aaron cos or they found the DNA evidence to suggest that Aaron Kasminski had been near the shore but even if his DNA is on the shore, that it doesn't prove that he murdered Katherinettos, just that he was somewhere, you know, that he met Katherinettos and what since what what are occupation asked that he that he'd been with Katharinetto's So, in my opinion, the shold

the shore doesn't actually prove anything, but it's it's interesting. I mean, it keeps the case going, it keeps the interest in the case, and it adds an experiment to it. So let's just say it's interesting that it say that the two mating officers do seem to have thought that Kasminski and so I would say, yeah, it's it's interesting, but it's not conclusive, and it's it's far from conclusive.

And I think we'll never know for sure because so much of the evidence has gone you know, I'm with him, you know, I'll say upfront, I don't buy this whole DNA evidence thing. Um, there are a lot of problems with it. You know, they got the DNA off the shawl that supposedly maybe belonged to one of the victims. We've kind of discussed this. Not only is that week, but there's like no chain of evidence for the shaw

the study or the evidence hasn't been pure reviewed. Also, as a fun fact, the news broke in, uh the Daily Mail, which you may or may not recognize as a British tabloid. That's like where the results were first published. That's a little sketchy and world. Well actually, you know, in fact, one of our own Oregonian reporters, Susannah Bowdman, puts it, the Daily Mails reporting on science and scientific

evidence is let's say, not known to be robust. Is like yes, actually, and the thing to remember too is that you know, nobody knows who this shawl or whatever it was belonged to, if it was We're Killers, or if it was the victims, if it was the victims,

and if it had some quote unquote DNA evidence. Uh, well she was prostitutes, so it could have had d evidence from all kinds of guys on Yeah, and I guess so as a final nail, mcoffin Richard brings this point up, and we don't even know, in all honesty, we don't even know that was her short. It's it's it's one of those interesting things, and it's it's passed through a lot of different people. I mean a lot

of people have had it. I suspect, although I can't you know, well, I don't know for certain, but it's been it's been handled. And there's also rumors that her sentence handled to the conference. Whether whether that's true or not, that's in dispute. But certainly the photographs of Russell holding the shawl up, it's not banked, it's not you know, it's just there. There's no cross contaminations. Also a possibility

to look at as well. And it here's my one last final huge problem with Aaron Cosminski is Aaron David Cohen. You guys, did did he come up in your research at all? No, that name doesn't. So it turns out Aaron Cohen is a name that asylums used when names like for example, Kosminsky would have been too hard to pronounce, or like the person admitting that person to an asylum was lazy. It was like it was like a John Doe. Okay, they were like, that name is too hard to spell.

We're just gonna say you're Cohen from now on. So Aaron David Cohen a k A. Nathan Kozminski was a bootmaker in Whitechapel in the area until on the twelfth of December. He was institutionalized because syphilis. He was crazy, it turns out, and kind of the killing time. Kind Uh. It's hard to tell because you know, records are sketchy, but I recommend a Google on this guy. He was violent. He was violent against women, he was violent against nurses.

He went kind of crazy. He was institutionalized just right after the like conical murders. I can say that word tonight ended. His last name was Kiminski instead of Kosminski. He was a polished Jew who was a bootmaker who wore a leather apron at the time. I think that, you know, if we're talking about like strong Kosminsky, I I suggest David in the name Minsky has been spelled many ways, and there's been a lot of conjecture over which Kosminski was. So I think that David Cohen is

a huge problem for the Kosminsky situation. Yeah, no, it's all confused. I mean, what's his name, Like the same thing with Klosowski was a k. George Chapman. I mean, I mean, yeah, they've all got these kind of like similar sounding names and it's just a big jumble. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, So anyway, I think I think we'd agree that the ripper was probably not just kidding. No. I mean I have I have an outlier that I'd like to bring up that we've talked about a little bit.

And you know, he's not accepted as a serious. Yeah, let's have it because I've got some not so serious Yeah, And we talked about him a little bit. George Hutchinson, the dude who like stood outside of Mary Kelly. Yeah, and then like and then was like, yeah, no, his eyelashes were black. I think, you know, as previously stated, on November twelve, George went to the London Police to make a statement about the November nine killing Mary Jane Kelly.

He gave a super detailed description which we just talked about and nobody really believes this description. And in fact, one of the inspectors said that, uh, maybe maybe George was trying to cover his tracks, or maybe maybe George was you know actually a lot of it's not uncommon

for sir killers to insert themselves into the investigation. Yeah, that was I mean, that's kind of the conjecture here, is that like he was like, oh, yeah, you know, he got a great look at him and this is exactly what he looked like, and but he wanted to be a part of it. The other thing is that he was he was pretty broke and at the time he would have made a whole lot of money selling his story to the newspaper. But he is brought up as like a vague kind of there's not a whole

lot of information on him, but it could. I mean, it's it's possible, possible, not plausible possible. The next outlier that we've got is what's often referred to as the Royal conspiracy and the Freemason connection. And I could walk through that, but we we talked with Richard about this, and I really like the way he puts it. We're actually gonna have Richard explained the Royal conspiracy and then

how that ties in with the Freemasons. The classic one here has causes the Royal conspiracy and the fact it might have been a member of the royal family, which is one of my favorites. This is it. It's been

around since the fifties, the Royal family theory. The member of the royal family in question was Prince Albert, ed with Victor, who was Queen Victoria's grandson and would have been King of England except he died in eight But we know his whereabouts on the knights of most of the murders, and he I mean the knights of the double murder. He wasn't even in London, so we know where he was. He was, so that he probably wasn't.

And then that comes into the Royal conspiracy theory that Prince Albert Edward Victor had had a child by his mistress Annie Elizabeth Crook. The Freemasons had broken the family up because the chart that it's all to do with her being a Catholic and everything. The Masons had broken the family up. The child was smuggled to safety by their servant, girl Mary Kelly, who brought it to the East end of London, and then she told the felling with a gaggle of drunken prostitutes, told them what she knew,

and they started black men in the royal family. So the Mason set out to silence all the prostitutes, and they did it with the royal physician, Sir William Gold, who went around in a carriage and depending on what film version that tempts them to the carriage by showing them bunches of grapes and then they get murdered and Mary Kelly is the last victim. So with that, the murders coming to an end because there's no longer the

threat of the royal family or society being blackmailed. Wonderful theory, but it's probably just a spiracy theory. That's a fun theory, but theory it doesn't. Yeah, but it doesn't bring it in account. Why than the mutilations took place? Now, I mean, as I said, I would love to believe it was a deranged ancestor of Prince Charles, but no, you know, you bring up another good point there, which is the Mason's and I've I've heard them refer seen them referred

to in a lot of this. And is that just based mostly from this, this royal theory or it mostly comes out of that. The whole thing came in well, first of all came up with it was Jack the Ripe of the Final Solution and it was a book by Stephen Knight, and Stephen Knight was based on a chatterman called Joseph Sicker to what the claim was that the Joseph sick had claimed that he was he was related in some way to it, and so he went

and so he gave the theory to Stephen Knight. Stephen Knight and then developed the theory both on both of them and are dead. But it's it's it. I mean, it's wonderful to think that it's it's a government conspiracy, that the Mason's got involved, and that everyone did it. And of course people like people didn't like that type

of conspiracy theory. But it's it's highly unlikely. But as I say, but the Masons being such a shadowy organization, you know that everyone's got this, They've got this mystique about them and all the rituals they perform and everything. So it's it's I mean, this is the whole process of murder. But I decree the Christopher Plumber film also the Front Health film as well. But let's say it's it's it's good entertainment, but as historical fact, it leaves

a lot to be desired. But it is cool though, And if you could find a tire to like, say the Knights Templar and the Holy Grail, that would be even more awesome. How it's fantastic. I mean, it's all you need is that, you know, maybe have Princess Diana involved in it as well. Yeah, I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna come and get Rolls Well involved, you know, get a few alien abductions and maybe having escaping on the Titanic, and you've done it so well. So anyway,

I'm not convinced. Well, I I also have I have one other outlier that I liked that I wanted to bring up because there's actually some credence to it. You got to talk about the aliens, No, I'm not. We're gonna talk about a guy by the name of Carl fine Bomb. Okay, Carl fine Bomb. I'm not sure how to pronounces yeah, fining bomb. Okay. Well, anyway, Carl was executed in the electric chair on the twenty seventh of April eighteen nineties six for the brutal murder of a

woman by the name of Julianna Hoffman. Carl murderer by slitting her throat. He was not able to do anything else because her son interrupted the murder and he jumped out a window onto the roof, and then Carl took off and they caught him. But here's the thing that's not his real name. We don't know. We don't know exactly what his name is. His name could be it was Anton or maybe Carl with a C or a k zon or zom or stro bomb like a stro bond,

I don't know. He evidently changed his name at some point, but we don't know why. And evidently he did this on a regular basis. Where where did Well, this murder happened in the United States, so it wasn't in England. But he was a sailor and in the eighteen eighties he was you know, he had a merchant lifestyle, a marine her lifestyle, and his whereabouts aren't exactly clear. But what we know is that he supposedly could have been and would have been in the area in England at

the time, in London. Uh. And then the other thing, and this is the what drew me to it. Okay, well, I said it had a lot of credence. It's actually pretty weak, but I like it anyway, is Uh. What we know is that after he was executed, as soon as his declaration of death was put out, his attorney, William Sanford Lawton, stated, I believe that Carl Feinnenbaum who you have just seen put to death in the electric chair, can easily be connected with the Jack the Ripper murders

in Whitechapel. I will stake my professional reputation on that. If the police will trace this man's movements carefully for the last few years, there investigations will lead them to London and to White Chapel. But did he provide any evidence or of course not, of course not seeking attorney. Yeah, I actually I think that this guy was looking to cause a little media splash. But it is interesting that, you know it was. It wasn't just a quick slash.

He really cut this lady's throat in a vicious manner while she was in bed, and we don't know where he was, and we don't know what he could have been doing that whole time. So he's just this ephemeral, mysterious person. Yeah, it could have been, But I mean, what the circumstances of this particular murder though, which it was The woman he murdered. Was she a prostitute? No? No, what how this whole thing went down? Is she was? I think it was New York Is where this took place.

She needed some money, so she decided to rent out a room in her house and he was her first lodger, first and last. Yeah, it sounds like it without saying yeah, and within a day or three I if I remember the details correctly, then he committed the murder. He killed her, so he if it didn't take long. But it's just weird. I was thinking about but maybe not thinking that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I'm thinking probably that it's possible, but no reason to really believe. So so yeah, no, no, I I

completely agree with you on there. Uh. And you know, there's the issue of and one of the things that was brought up was that it potentially if this guy wasn't it, it's but possible that the ripper was a sailor, would explain why he was out of town for weeks on end and the murders didn't happened. But my issue with that is why don't we hear about these kind of grizzly murders in other ports of call, even places

that aren't super super populated. You would think that there would be record of a prostitute or a woman with her throat slit and her organs pulled out. There'd be some. It was definitely like a widely publicized thing too. I mean, you know, it wasn't just like, oh you only know about this in White Chaplain in London. No, the whole world was looking for this guy. They were all fascinated

by him, and he was a new sensation worldwide. So you know, if one woman showed up with something like that in any other port of call, it would have set off alarm bells. I mean, it just would have. Um, it's absolutely true, although you know it might be it might be also the fact that he was a sailor, but perhaps he was also like a racist, like say, he was a German who hated the Brits, so he did a special isles to their bodies. But when he was like often you know, other other ports, he didn't

he stabbed people to death, but didn't didn't sad. Yeah, it's possible something like that too. Yeah, No, that's that's possible. And and the big mystery about this, this whole Jack the Ripper story, is that we have this time frame where the canonical five are murdered, very short time frame, and then it stops. Yeah, and it's a little weird as to why it possibly could have stopped. And there's theories about, well, he was caught and he was committed

or he committed suicide or anything like that. And and we we did put that question to Richard because we wanted to know, because he's done so much research on it, why he thought they just stopped. So suddenly the can have been there's there's a handful of reasons for the murders, because someone like this doesn't get fed up and think, while I enjoyed that, but I think I'm going to collect stamps. Now, something stopped him killing that either he

got caught, he might have died. So he could have died if if I say, if he had been given a disease, he could have he could have died of that disease. He could have committed suicide. He could have been with his family who realized what had happened, and so they put him into a private assignment. That's a possibility. Now the possibilities he went somewhere else, he moved and

continued killing, and they didn't make the connecting. You know, they didn't make the connection between the two, which is highly unlikely because they were looking for him all over the world. I mean, there's everyone the world over knew about these killings. So if he had gone somewhere else,

the connection would have been made. The other possibilities the police did catch their man, whether they knew it was the ripper, It's possible he was arrested for another crime, went into it, went into a prison and they didn't

realize who they got. Yeah, I mean, there's there's all sorts of there's all sorts of suspects who came into the area left because the other thing about the area was because it was close to the docks, so you did have a lot of each of ships shipping coming into the port of London very close to the doctor. He had foreign sailors coming in left, right and center, and you had say one of the reasons for the gaps.

All the theory is that the reason for the gaps is because it could have been someone on a ship who was out of London for a period of time and then came back again and commenced murdering. The other interesting one is that the famous the Dr Tumblety, the American who's h who was arrested for acts of gross indecency and seems to have been a quite a favor favored suspect and he skipped bail when he was released

from police custody. He they said, you're not going to run off are He said, no, no, no, and then he skipped bail and went to America where he was. Now the interesting about tumble Tears that Dr tumblet everybody

knew where he was. The reporters were staking at his house in New York, and Inspector burn at NYPD actually had him on the valence and the reporters in America were going to him and saying, you know, in America they seem to have known that he was suspected for the Whitechapel murders, and they said, you know, is he

going to go back? And he said, now, he said, what tumbled he is wanted for is not extracitable, So he couldn't have been extraunited for what he had done, which seems to have been he actually got caught up that there was this act of gross and decency with several men and that that's what he'd done, and that could he couldn't have been expracited for that. But he obviously if he had been a murder, he would have been extradited. So obviously NYPD and the London police didn't

seem to think he was the Ripper. A lot of people think that he went to America and then disappeared, which is just not true. So this is awful what Jackie Ripper, just like, in general, Jackie Ripper is pretty awful. Are you gonna say he's misunderstood? No, I mean it's like an awful story. And I guess it like rounds out our October and I'm kind of honestly happy that we're time with October. Now we can go do like really interesting stuff, not creepy grizzly yeah, not weird creepy

grizzly stuff. But I think, you know, we don't. I don't think we need to talk about theories. I think that's out there well, and we've talked about obviously the stuff that we kind of like, and we obviously curated this episode all so I don't think we need to. I mean, I think we're pretty good. Would you guys think we're good? Yeah, I think we're there. We kid, I can't blame this one on that, So I guess you know, there will be probably a lot of links on our web, which is um of course, as always

thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And by the way, of course, you know as you said, all the links are gonna be on there. We will have the link to Richard's website to company on there. And if you are if you're gonna be in in London, if you are in London and you are the tour, I've been on ripper tours and they're awesome. Yeah, those tours are fantastic and you really get to see the neighborhood and you really get to see it from the street and it really

is awesome. And by the way, that doesn't doesn't rich or have a book coming out? I believe, Well, Richard has written two books, and I didn't know that he had a third. Okay, well, okay, probably on his website. Sorry, we were way off traffic. The other place you could be listening to us as iTunes, you probably are. If you are, feel free to leave us a comment in

a rating. As always, we love that you know, we drop our shows every Thursday, so if it's Thursday and you realize you haven't downloaded it, you can stream a straight from Stitcher. It's always a good thing. We've also added a couple of others we have, Yeah, we've We've added tune in dot com. So we're on there. Now, I know that we are in a couple of the apps that are really popular, that the podcast apps for the iOS and the Android we've gotten on their list

Fangled apps. Yeah things, We're in a bunch of places. Now. Check the website. It lists everywhere that we're available for downloads and streaming. Yeah. And you know the other place you can find us as Facebook. Um, there's a group and page. You can like us and join the group. Some good conversations happening there. Um. We also, as of this week, are on Twitter. Find us, find us, and follow us, and we'll figure out how to use this Twitter. Yeah. I'm the youngest one in this room, and I'm like,

don't know totally how to use it. So we're going to figure it out with text messaging services yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And other than that, I don't know, but yeah. And then you can always send us an email that email addresses. Again, as always Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. We have a couple of emails that we should be reading, but this show is like two and a half hours long, so we're gonna go ahead and postpone those for just

a couple of weeks. I'm sorry about that whoever, you know, we replied to you, I promise we'll read you soon. It's two and a half hours is too long. So with that, I say good night by everybody to Lou George Clinty. No, I think I think we've thinking that. I think we've solved the mystery. I think we have now. Actually I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you who my suspect is. Have you noticed he made a Ripper movie number one,

and you know he doesn't seem to age. Yeah, I think I think, Yeah, I think John Johnny Depp is a I mean I was used to say I think it was Queen Victoria because in Colombo, well and that was getting involved. Yeah, well, you knowiced that in Pirates of the Caribbean and all the sequels, he seems to be very proficient with the play and he was addicting. His addicted to absent wasn't as well, Yeah, exactly was. It was board Hales and his brain and made him

go insane. And yeah, so there you go, it's Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp done it. In fact, he certainly murdered Abiline's reputation in the film, because Abiline was nothing like Johnny Depp. Yeah, probably it's Abiline is the character who Johnny Depp played in the film. But it's it's very very very very very very very very very very very very loosely based on a BLINEAOK, a little artistic license with that one, but then again, it's a great film. It's it's you know,

it's it's really atmospheric. And what they were setting out to do, they weren't setting out to make a documentary. They were setting out to make, you know, a good horror film. And I think they stated there they did a pretty good job indeed, And how can you not make a great horror film when you've got the actual Jack the Rippers starring in it.