Thinking Sideways: Holes!

kind of an okay way, wouldn't you say? Yeah, that was a no? But the truth, yeah we can. But anyway, we were doing something a little different tonight. We're always try to mix things up, do things a little differently, see how they work. And one of the things that we've been talking about is the fact that we're getting a lot of suggestions, which is fantastic, and we're finding a lot of stories, but unfortunately those stories are kind

of small. They wouldn't be enough to fill an entire show on their own, and we have definitely gotten a lot of feedback that people like longer shows than shorter shows, So we didn't really want to do just like, you know, a couple of fifteen minutes twenty minutes shows, because that just kind of felt like, that's so fun. But so what we decided to do is go ahead and combine a couple of stories and run through several in one episode.

So tonight, ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about holes. Holes in the ground, holes in the ground, in the ground. Yeah. I know, it's it sounds really interesting, but it actually kind of is. It totally is. We've we found some pretty interesting stories, some good holes. Yeah. So we've got we've got three different stories that we're gonna run through tonight,

and Joe, you're you're gonna start us out. I'm gonna start out before I start with my main story, which is Mills Hole, which some of you may have heard about. In my meanderings around the innerwebs. Investigating Mills Hole, I stumbled across another really cool hole called the Wealth the Well to Hell, and oh yeah I've seen, yes, yes, the Well to Hell. I haven't told me about it. Yeah.

So the Russian scientists, yeah, scientists, And I'm then placed in Siberia, drilled a hole that want nine miles down and then at nine miles down it hit a cavity, and so they were intrigued at what they what they what they had come across, And so they lowered some temperature sensing gear and and a microphone into the hole. So nine miles oh I actually and and and they recorded,

they recorded the screams of the damned. So, in other words, they had found Hell and their their their temperature is showing equipment apparently put the temperature in there about two thousand degrees anyway, So the well to Hell, Yeah, yeah, that's heard on the internet and ran like wildfire and then thankfully died off, except for the one link that you managed to find on it. Yeah, yeah, and the and the actual the actual recording apparently was taken from

some other recording wrote some movie soundtrack. Yeah, it is fairly terrifying that recording if it's like late at night and you're just totally in that mindset where you're buying into everything, and you listen to it and you're like, oh no, it's the worst thing ever. But obviously obviously re let's let's let's talk about the real holes, or at least what we believe. Let's talk about, Yeah, the real hole, the real the real deal Mells Hole. This

was a suggestion from one of our listeners, Jennifer. Thanks Jennifer, appreciate the suggestion. Uh so, Mells Hole is Uh. The story begins in the late nineties when a guy in and Mel Waters called into the Art Bell Show. And Art Bell used to it was a San Francisco based broadcaster, kind of like Clyde Lewis, kind of one of those guys that specializes show bigot UFOs all that stuff. He

would talk about this stuff. So Mel Waters calls in and he says, he says that he had he owned a piece of property in the middle of Washington, near a town called Ellensburg, and he said that there was a hole of his property that was about not nine ft wide or something like that, surrounded by a concrete block wall like like a well would be. And but the whole, according to Mel was bottomless. And he said he'd dropped stuff in there and you never hear it

hit bottom. And he said that people around the area had been throwing their trash in there for years and years never filled it up. Yeah, I know, And then, uh, what else did you say? It has some certain magical properties. Animals for example, would not go anywhere near it, even

birds it. It wouldn't end. He said that somebody had a dog and his dog died, and so he threw the dog down the well, which really I know, and what a sound that was, Like, don't bury the dog in the yard, now, you can just go throw him in with all the other garden. So but anyway, so this guy threw his dog into into mills hole, and then some time after that he saw the dog again or something alive. There's two different versions of it. One is that he saw it out in the woods by itself,

running along like it was chasing something. And another version that he saw the dog and he was walking with some other person and when he called to the dog, the dog wouldn't come to him. Oh. I actually heard an even different version of that story that he threw it down and like he was sure it was dead. He threw the dog down the well, but like as the dog was falling down, he could hear it like barking, like it had like come back alive and was just falling.

It must have just been in a coma dog coma well. I bet he was feeling kind of regretful at that point. Yeah, I hope. So yeah, yeah, please, yeah, somebody actually they were Mel apparently, uh he went in discussion with with with our bell was talking about various ways to figure out how deep this hole is. He's and somebody actually wanted to of somebody called into the show and suggested

throwing a cat down there and here and so. Yeah, you can hear the cat screaming and owling the whole way down until it stopped, and that's when you know it hit bottom. But yeah, this is a sensitive bunch. Yeah, yeah, seriously, I don't I don't think he ever did this. Gentlemen, we do not Please, don't any of that at all, no, please, Yeah.

Mel took a path like a roll of lifesavers and tied a time to a fishing line, and he reportedly lowered the lowered the lifesavers down about fifteen hundred feet and then brought him back up and they were intact. They weren't wet, so it hadn't obviously hit the water table or anything like that. There's not full of water. Um and then claims that he U you have a no, I just feel like that's wrong. But okay, I also like I'm kind of like I'm trying to conceptualize feet,

like like how like how high do airplanes fly? Usually? Right? Like so it's like I don't know, like like a like a big football football field is a hundred yards the playing surface, not the end zones. There's a hundred yards, and there's how many feet in a yard? Three? So that would be three hundred feet. Yeah, okay, so we're talking according to this, then that is five football fields. See that. I'm sorry, I don't know if this is because I'm a lady or what, but that does not

help me at all. Can you get like buildings though, like can you reference like a what a building in this area is similar? Okay, so for a reference, the Empire State building is one tall, so it's a little but deeper than the Empire's date building and has not

didn't hit the water water didn't hit bottom. Uh well I also okay, I guess the other thing is that, like I don't know that life, like a role of Lifesavers, is necessarily heavy enough for me to like once it's down far enough me, you know, I don't know that I would notice if I was hit nothing but sugar, so they would start to dissolve in the water. Sure. But but I guess my thing is that, like if it hit bottom, I don't know that I would necessarily

be like, oh yeah, still it's yeah like that. Yeah. And the thing about it is is I I had no idea what kind of line he was using. Butt in line. It's going to love. It's going to weigh more than the Lifesavers themselves, So he could actually, you know, he could actually have hit bottom and still have tension on the line from all that weight. Right, That's exactly kind of what I'm saying, is that it just seems like it would be hard to tell, all right, So

there's there's an issue right there. No, it gets better. So after after his unsuccessful experiment with the Lifesavers, he got himself a whole bunch more line and he lowered He put a supposedly a one pound weight on the end of this line, started lowering it down. I just feel like he needs to be using more weight. I

would have come up with a better solution. My solution would have been to U turn a radio on, set it to transmit like a walkie talkie, and just drop it and time and when it when it stops transmitting, you know, you hit the bottom. But don't they hit a range, Like there's a range that like I remember at the kid right walkie talking. I think Joe is talking about better walkie talking and what we had as a kid quit when I was halfway across the yard. Alright,

that's fair. They were black and had a little orange tip on the end of the radio. Yeah. By the time I was a kid, we had like colors and like they were good and anyway, Joe so so he started lowering this thing down. When he run out of line, he would he would tie on a new spool of line and keep lowering. So he lowered that thing down. He claims eighty thousand feet what okay? Wait, wait, how far away is the moon from us? Like? How many

feet is the moon away from us? Okay, so the moon is two hundred forty thousand miles for away from us? And miles I don't have a calculator. I mean, I'm too lazy, It's okay, never mind about the distance to the moon. No, no, but eighty thousand feet that's miles. I mean that's okay. So I guess, Like another question is, like how thick do we calculate the Earth's trust to be it's not that thick, right, not on couple, but only I mean like eight eight eight thousand feet. Yet

you're getting there. Yeah, you're getting there, you know. And I'm not even sure again what the strength of the line he was using was. But at the end of that, you would think that the way to the line itself would be so much that it would break the line. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so anyway, but it gets better though.

Apparently after he after he publicized the existence of this mysterious hole, by the way, there's other stuff going on to like like, for example, some people claimed to have seen a column of black light coming out of it and going up into the sky. Black light as in the black lights from the sixties. Uh no, just that what they call. I guess he called it anti light,

like a shadow, but like a column shadow. Yeah, like like like an anti flashlight shining out of the hole and up into the up to the up in the sky. So there are people that have actually been dedicating themselves to going out and looking for this thing. All right, But before I talk to that, like, I guess I should tell a little bit more a male's story. Apparently, um, after he brought this to light, the government showed up men in black. Yeah it was men in black, wasn't it.

Here come the men in black? Yeah, yeah, And so they show up one they show up one day and they say, um, and they say, basically, you can't come out of your property. There's been a play and crash and we're working. And he said, there's there's no evidence of a plane crash, but these guys wouldn't let him

on his property. And eventually he said that they the government leased the property from him for two dollars a month and this allowed him to Yeah, the nice tidy little sum of money and so and gentlemen, you can't see the raised eyebrow that I have right now. Yeah. So, uh, they least at least the land from him for this princely sum. Well, wasn't there like a big caveat that one with it? Though? What didn't they say, Okay, we're gonna lease this land from you for this amount of money,

but you cannot be on American soil. I've heard that. The other one is that he just wanted to move to Australia and they've they've sort of facilitated his move, but not that they've left the country Australia for a couple of years where he engaged in want that research,

he says. So the impetus for me asking that is because, as I'm sure you're about to talk about, as soon as l comes back from Australia, you know, the minute that that story goes, at least the minute he set foot on American soil, his money was all taken away from him. All of it was taken away from him, and he hadn't said nothing, and he was just trying, you know, he had to like get a money order from his nephew to like make it back to his property.

So there's there's like a little more in depth men in blackage happening, that weird stuff. So I don't know, you know, to conflicting stories about that, obviously, Yeah, he hasn't, so I don't know exactly. He claims that the government served him with papers and basically sees his property, and anybody know if he'd been finding his taxes, I have no idea. That's usually a good reason for the government to seize your property. I know you have something worth value.

Nobody nobody actually knows if mel even exists. Apparently, people who checked the check the role like the of the voter rolls and just the telephone directories and everything else for Ellensburg and surrounding area. And they found a record of anybody named mel Waters living there at all. Although looks be fair. If you're going to call a conspiracy show with something like this, maybe you'll want to give

him a fake name. Yeah. So after he returned, they seized his land and then Bell got in a bus in Tacoma, Washington, head for Olympia UM. There was an altercation on the bus when and the police showed up. They asked Mell to give a statement. Uh. Mell wanted to have no, wanted to just leave, and the police said that they would give him a ride in their van. Their van, Yeah, in the in the police vane. So he didn't need to get on the bus so you

could stick around and give a statement. So anyway, he gets in the van and that's the last thing he remembers. He wakes up twelve days later in an alley in San Francisco. He had been beaten. His his molars were missing. They pulled his molders. Uh, and there would have woken somebody on Yeah, and there was Abdace said he had been hooked up to an ivy and he had a homemade he was one of his hobbies is making bell buckles,

and his belt buckle had been stolen. Yeah. And and by the way, when he checked his act account for all that money the government had big giving him, it was all gone. It had vanished. Yeah, A Mel's story gets, uh, gets even more strange. And I'm not going to get into everything. Because he had Mel had further adventures down in Nevada where he found a second hole that had similar problems. But here's the let me ask you this. Yeah,

do we know where Mel's hole is? No, there's only and this is this is the thing that's kind of mysterious. It's like, according to Mel Waters, everybody in the area knew of it because they were throwing all their crap down it and so but strangely enough, nobody knows where it is. There's one guy that lives in the area. His name is his name is Red Elk and he's claims to be an Indian shaman. I can't he's got a white guy named too, but I can't remember what

it is on the top of my head. But so he claims that his father first took him there in nine and he's been back there many times. But he's also he's also led numerous expeditions to try to find the hole, with no success. I was reading a news account one of the local papers about a bunch of people that went out on a hunt for the whole and red Elk took the lead, but they didn't find any holes didn't Was it red Elk that did the Coast to Coast interview or Coast Coast a m interview?

Or was it Mel that did that interview? That was Mel mill Waters or at least ostensibly, Yeah, melt Waters did that. Red Olk actually does exist, because I saw I saw a news report on a Washington station about Mel's hole. He gave a he gave a little bit of an interview. Interesting and yeah it was funny too.

The he was there on this road out in the woods, and and then the news lady that is doing the report, he's like, he's like standing there next to the camera and she's heading up the road supposedly towards where the hole might be, and he's going, you shouldn't go up there. It's all, you know, It's all you know. Maybe that's why they never found the hole. Is you know red Elk is afraid to find the hole. Yeah, I don't know so anyway, so we did. Nobody's ever found this thing.

For all we know it's hyper bowl. Yeah, nobody's found the whole. It could be that the government, when they had control of it, maybe they filled it in. No, you covered it. You could just cover it, right, I mean like write like a trap, those like traps in the middle of the woods where you just like cover it like a net and then like put leaves over and put a rug over. They put leaves on it. Nobody,

nobody will ever find it. What I think they probably did is they put a holographic projector inside the hole, and it projects what appears to be three dimensional ground, so it looks Yeah, you could be standing right next to the whole and it just looks like another pen. But they also put a weird electrical fence around it, so if you like went that way, you would get like an uncomfortable electric shocks, and when you would be like, oh, they'd not go that way because something's weird there to

keep people from walking into the hole. Actually it might be too. They've got like sort of like an electric like an electric eye, trip wire and speakers and when you trip that, the speakers go off and they sound the brown note, you know, and so you know what the brown note is, right? And I feel like to can Sam, I'm surrounded by fruit loops, right. I like

the idea of the brown note. The brown note. But that was on an episode of hard hitting documentary episode called a South Park And this one note makes people poop their pants. And so you're out there and all of a sudden, you you poop your pants, and what are you gonna do? You're gonna run back to your car and you know, I mean, you're not gonna hang out. You're not gonna hang out keep trooping around. You might depends on the kind of person you are. So I

mean that is that it for Mel's hold? Is there? Like any people? I know people have been looking for it for years, and I believe that who was it that suggested this? Jennifer, Yeah, Jennifer, I know she said that she went to college in that area and that was one of those things, kind of like a snipe hunt. They would just go out in the woods looking for Mel's hole. Yeah. I mean, if if you believe what what Mel Waters said, it's somewhere about nine ten miles

east or excuse me, west of Ellensburg. So it's not a huge area. You could actually you could actually comb that pretty well and probably find something. He was telling the truth about the direction, or he was good a direction. He might be like me who doesn't know north from up. Ye. See that's my problem. But the problem here I don't understand. Alright.

So uh so those of you who still think the whole might exist and still want to go out and look for it, I've got one piece of advice that will really help you there your search down a long ways, which is the whole has got to be next to a road. The reason for this is mill Waters. If you're gonna believe what he says, says everybody was throwing their junk in there. So you're not gonna strap your old dead refrigerator to your back and you know, hoof at like half a mile of the woods to throw

it in the hole. And so it's got to be right next to a road that it doesn't not a two lane highway, even not even a little gravel road could be just a little mud act. But there has to be vehicular access to the whole taking take that and uh, you know you don't even need to get out of your car to go look promose hole. All right. So there is a local geologist whose name is Jack Powell.

He was cited in a newspaper article, a very recent one, is saying he thinks that there he's there is an abandoned gold mine in the area and it's not bottomless, but it's you know, about three ft deep perhaps, And he says that perhaps that's what somebody saw that and that's what they think the whole is. But he said that he knows of no other holes around. And he said also being a geologist, geologist would be the kind of person you want to talk to about stuff like this, presumably.

He said that the problem with the bottomless bottomless well is that the deeper down you'd get, the greater the pressure of the surrounding, and so it would collapse. Oh, the force of the earth, the weight of the Earth would would force it to close on itself in the bottom. Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, he says, it's oddly the scientist is making sense. Yes, he's as it's geologically impossible. The other thing is that it's at at some point it's going to go below the water table and not Yeah,

that's kind of impermeable. Yeah. I remember going to a latitube and by Mount Saint Helens. It's called a little red river. Yeah, and it's close to the public. But you know, I have my friends and I have a special sneaky way and and anyway. So but that one goes out, it goes down for a long way. It's continually, it goes continually downward until you get to this point where water starts coming in through cracks in the walls

because it's below the water table. And then you go on a little bit further and you get to the spot where there's a sort of an underground lake down there because the entire thing is filled up with water. And you know, so that's not that far down really, Yeah, and you don't have to get I mean, you don't have to get that far down like in eighte Caves

for instance. That doesn't necessarily go coast right. No, that's actually it's actually Helen I'm thinking of I think, see okay to yeah, yeah, it's actually it's actually just a few miles from this other one that I'm talking about. Little Yeah, so it's just I mean, the thing of it is is that you know, in the Pacific Northwest we get a lot of rain. Are ground is fairly saturated with water, and the caves is not below the water table as far as I know. But the water

it's always wet down there. It's always wet down there because you know, the water seeps through just just because it rains or whatever. There's always there's always water down there. And you know, even when you're crawling into like the very deepest bottom ones, you know, it's always wet down there. And you know, if if it's just a pit, the water is going to collect it. Just water goes places and stuff like that will fill. Yeah. So I mean, you know, even if it's not, if it's somehow not

at the water table. Yeah, I just the water that whole you hit the water table. It's just part of being on Earth. Yeah. Yeah. You think it would have been found by with things like what's that website? Google Earth? Yeah, yeah, I think we would have found it by now. Yeah. No, I actually got on Google Earth and I looked, and I looked and looked and looked, and I didn't see a hole. Shocking because it projects black light in the

camera focus might have blinded the satellite. Yeah. So, actually, you know what I think it is is I think it's a hole for the lizard people to use. You dude, it's the lizard people. I want to talk about the lizard pop They're going to steal our water from there. The water table has been like decimated. They're my whole is obviously proof of this, ready for this. Yeah, so the whole bit I want to talk about is Devil Kettle Hole or Devil Cattle Falls. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's in It's in Minnesota, Okay, the northern Minnesota, like pretty close to the border. Yeah, where the mosquitoes are. It's that's really specific joke. So it's in Judge C. R. Magni State Park, which is this huge state park pretty much like on the border of Canada and Minnesota. By it's really close to Lake Superior, and um, the falls are about a mile and a half from Lake Superior itself. I think I think they're like the lowest falls, but I don't know that for sure. The brew Ley are

we gonna say it's the Brule River. Essentially, what happens is this river through a lot of series of falls drops like feet from where it starts to Lake superior Um. This particular fall is like a fifty ft drop. One half of it makes this drop, at least one half. So you know, at the top of falls, how often there will be like a rock in the middle and they split off into two different Is this the rock

in the Loony to cartoons? You remember back trying to paddle away from and then that's what he'll be stuck in the middle of the falls. It's literally the Loony rock. Okay, okay, So it divides the brewlet or whatever, how are you say it river. I'm just going to not say the name of the river anyway. This river into two and it's pretty much solid two halves. One half makes the fifty ft drop and continues on to the mile and

a half to Lake superior. The other half drops into what's called a kettle or like a pothole kind of thing. It's like just a hole, probably a hole in the rock. Drops into the hole in the rock and goes who knows, mysterious. So we've just got one giant I mean, I'm assuming waters pouring, yeah, but that's you know, like it's a lot of noise and activity, but the water level never rises. It just drops ten feet and then goes somewhere weird.

So as far as it's called devil Kettle fall, because as far as we know, the water goes just straight to Hell. I mean really truly, that's like literally, as far as we know, it could go straight into Hell. It could go into this place that apparently the nazis recorded into, like the hole into Hell. Because here's the deal.

It's apparently an immense amount of water. And I looked everywhere and I could not find good statistics on how much water like per hour or per year flows down this river, how much flow to this kettle, anything like that. But everyone I've ever read has said referred to it as an immense amount of water, and it just disappears. Uh. The standing theory is that it runs underground for a while and eventually in peas into the lake or back into the river stream, yeah, further downstream or just like

straight into the lake. But efforts to prove this have been like really unsuccessful. Um scientists, and I'm like using air quotes here because some people who study this, our scientists, some are just drunk hikers. Have dropped you know, things varying from vibrant diyes to ping pot like massive amounts of ping pong balls, to rubber ducks. Not rubber ducks, but logs. And there's a claim that a car has been dropped into this thing. How how do you get

a car into that thing? Well, it's not even like how do you get it into that thing? But like it's you have to hike to it. I mean it's just like a foot trail. So I don't know how much I believe the car situation, but time it might be they might have like I mean, there might be a road that crosses somewhere upstream and they could have like you know, tied locks to the car and driving it into the river and just floating down stream. That seems like an immense amount of effort just to get

rid of a car. Yeah, so I don't know about the car, but definitely logs. And then you know, just like natural stuff that goes down the river, twigs, raberry rocks, that's a great place to get rid of a body.

Joe again, like the dumping of bodies, you really wear the kid news that this is really far away, so like you would have to actively go Yeah, Okay, I'll have to get rid of my body somewhere closer, because getting a body into a suitcase and onto the airplane to fly to Minnesota is like, you know, it's difficulty. So no, no worries. I'm not actually going to do it. So they okay, so they dumped all this stuff down this kettle, right, and literally none of it has resurfaced

ever ever, so they can't. They don't see if I'm coming out somewhere in the lake. No ping pong balls aren't mysteriously appearing in Lake Superior. And I can imagine logs. Nobody could tell, right, I mean, and that's fair. But you know, I guess the other thing that people bring up in this situation, right, is that it hasn't backed up.

There's not like a natural dam that's happened. So it doesn't seem to be like filtering things, right, It's not just like going underwater into just natural water table or anything like that. You would think it eventually they crap down there that it was clogged the thing. Yeah, and it's you know, this has been around for thousands of thousands of years, have been around for a long time. Yeah, so's it would have naturally backed up if it were

filtering this stuff out. Okay, I guess they're they're problems with the underground river theory. First, Um, the rock that comprises this riverbed is like really really hard, and so the underground river theory. Just to make sure I understand how this is working. You're saying that it's going down

and it's hitting basically the water tables. So will know there are a couple of theories, and we're going to kind of Okay, I just want to understand the und People pretty much don't think that it hits the water table because it would have backed up in this end of dams, so like we would see more water, it would have been slower, or like we would see it falling into a lake or something like that, or overflowing

out of the hole. Yeah. So people are pretty much not saying that it just hits the water table and is in any way. They're saying that it's like a river and ostensibly in like all lava tube in the place now and the place where this happens where the double kettle is, how high above the elevation of Lake Superior, is that I think it's only Yeah, well, no, I think it's more than it's it's not. I mean, it's a mile and a half away. I think this is

the last fall much it's Yeah, I know. I know some people that actually explored an underground river in Guatemala, as you know, and it's like it took him. It was a huge expedition. Yeah. So underground rivers are I think, honestly the most solid theory, right, so I kind of want to talk about that, okay, Okay, I was just trying to understand how that works, right, so that it would be through Mostly Mainly, the most viable theory I've heard is that it hits it's like a lava tube.

It's a hole in the ground. Somehow they're flowing down. Okay, I can run with that. I'm sorry. Didn't mean that there's a river itself, like it continues on as there a point in the river where suddenly there's a whole bunch of more water in it. Nope, not, as far as anyone can tell, there any mysterious rivers that just pop out of the ground anywhere nearby. No, Okay, I'm going to solve this mystery. Yeah. Um, it's in the

in the in the middle of Oregon. Central Oregon. There's a river called the Metolius River, which, in cosmological terms, it's just right next door to double scale Falls. So the Metolius is really a pretty unique river in the sense that most rivers start off that's just little trickles, you know, like a larger body, little trickles that turned into little streams that turned into creeks and they all joined together, and so basically, you know, a bunch of

little streams come together and form a river. The Metolius is unique in that it just pops up out of the ground. Sound. It's not composed of a lot of little tributaries. There's two big springs and all this water just comes pouring out of these springs and heads on downstream. So Joe's theory is that somehow this water makes it several thousands through a few ranges of mountains, negating all laws of physics that we know. Well, have you not

heard of interdimensional travel? Okay, so let's just go ahead and like work, Yeah, let's go Okay. It's interesting though, the Metolius is actually kind of the inverse of this river. Yeah, it really is the first thing that I want to bring up with the like underground river theory is that the rock that comprises this riverbed is really really hard, like rylite and basalt. I think that's how you pronounced that, right, right, Like, yeah, no, I know the salt is super hard. I'm familiar with that.

Hilight is actually harder than so you can say, but Devin, you're you're saying, I mean, maybe there's a fault line that crushed the rock into more permeable pebbles, and that was fine, and that's totally a thing, right, right, but not in Minnesota, not northern Minnesota. The problem is is that there's no evidence to suggest a fault line other than the fact that ever disappears. It's not just like going into super permeable pebbles or anything like that. Does

that make sense? So the next theory would be that there's a lava tube, which do form in basalt. Lava tubes form in basalt, But are there any volcanoes anywhere nearby? No?

So that's the thing, right, is that basalt forms lava tubes by flowing down like the slope of a volcano, essentially, right, So the shell cools faster than the inside and forms a like a more solid Yeah, yeah, what happens is is, yeah, they formed, they go down the hills essentially and and and that's literally a river of lava like a stream. And then as they go along the outside. Cool. What happens is eventually they form a crust over the top that cools, and that cools faster than the center of

it in the center. The center continues to flow on out. And so yeah, that's how they're formed. But in this particular case, if there's been has there're been any volcanic catholics, Well, so the basalt that formed in this area is it's I don't remember what it's called. I gotta be honest with you, but it's formed by lava oozing out of like a fissure and just like it uses out and show yeah I did that. I did that. So that basalt is like super hard, just sheets. It doesn't have

any kind of tube system. There's no evidence for any kind of tube system. And I think the because I read that and I was reading how that kind of lava works, and it took me a bit and I was like, well, the lava's lava. But yeah, the way I would describe it is like, so a fisher is just like basically just like a big old cut in the earth. Right, So it's a cut that like opened up and the blood is like or the lava is oozing out, as opposed to like a puncture wound, which

would form. Would that would you say? That's fairly fairly accurately to describe it in like a kind of gross term if there's volcanic activity nearby, right, but we don't want it. It was like, you know, millions of years ago, it was just like a fissure. There wasn't any volcanic activity. It was just that like you know, the earth split open at one point and it flowed out into this

big sheeta basically. Yeah, So I guess even if we ignore the science of this, right, you know, the problem still persists that scientists can't figure out where this water is just dumping out, right, you know, they need to just dump some massive quantities of oil down and then

just and I just see where they were all. Well, but I mean that's the problem, right, is that they've done that with other things that are less harmful, right, dies that are you know, I guess ostensibly don't harm or ping pong balls, you know, things that particularly if you were out in the middle of Lake Superior and you're like, Wow, there's a ping pong ball, or like there's a couple ping pong balls. You'd probably mention it to somebody and you'd be like, yeah, they did that.

Study cool, it's dumping out into Lake Superior, you know. So that's kind of my other problem with this is that even if it were by some you know, like miracle uh underground lava tube that went underground and it didn't even dump out on the shores, right, it dumped out like in the middle of Lake Superior. If you dump a bunch of die or ping pong balls or anything like that and there's flowing down this river and it just pops out in the middle of Lake Superior,

people are going to report things like that. And the weird thing is why hasn't this thing plugged up? Right? That's down I think could be plugged up. You think that would would plug it up event You know what I don't understand what they're why they're not doing is you know, you could divert that water and let that thing up the out and then just head on down there with the rope and see what's going on. I mean,

that's kind of my thing right now. Right there's a YouTube video that we should link to of somebody who went like part of the way down into this kettle and kind of videotaped what's going on, and you can see the river hits and it hits on the rock and then it flows down. It just kind of looks like one of those things where I know it's crazy dangerous empirically in my head that it would be a dumb idea for anybody to just like walk down that thing. But I just want to jump down that thing and

ride it out like a stupid log ride. You're like splash mountain and just see what is going on on that you know. It's it's just so surprising with like all of the technology that we have with like shockproof cameras and things like that, that we haven't just like boxed a camera up. We can. We can you know, send cameras into the middle of hurricanes, so we know we have the technology. We haven't just like throwing a camera down there and seeing like what's going on. I have.

I have two things about this, and what I what I found really fascinating was when I was reading about how they think the kettle itself formed, and I don't know if either of you came across this is basically, when water is pouring into a depression, it kind of makes a vortex, which essentially makes a water drill, and so the water is just drilling that hole out deeper

and deeper, which is how we got this hole. That was and that was kind of the theory that people were talking about, is that like it had drilled out the really hard ryle rhyle light rhylight into a like a slightly less hard basalt lava tube, and that that was where everything was going. But I just don't and then you know, there's no scientific evidence that. And limestone is the rock that's notorious for being easily eroded by water,

But I don't like the limestones. Limestones. There's not if I remember reading correctly, there's not a lot of limestone out there, well, not in this area where like a couple of thousand miles away from the thing that I think about that I wonder about is this thing's been there for eons. And one of the things that happened in that area a long long time ago was there was glaciers scraping along, which is part of how we have the lakes, the Great Lakes that part of what

form them. So I almost wonder, and this is totally going on a lamb, but a glacier comes through and it scrapes a giant trough out, and then there's some kind of volcanic activity that blows across the top and fills it up, and so you've got a big void the bottom. I mean, I'm totally spitball in here, but I'm just using two natural things to explain another natural thing. Yeah,

I'm probably out in left field. Well, you know my big problems with that, right, are that geologists have put a lot of thought into this thing, and I assume that one of them would have thought of that if it was a viable Oh no, no, not right. I think that I might be the first one to come up, and I all thought thinks that, like if right, So if you I guess it's like frosting a cake to me, Right, Okay, so you've got this crack in your cake and you take your frosting and what does it do? Does it

just gloss right over it? Or does it fill in that crack and gloss over it? Doesn't fill the entire crack. It feels fills the top. I would say, well, I think a lot. Let's okay, I'll let's make a cake and confirm this. Yeah, I mean, you know, that would just be my And you know, frosting is definitely more rigid than like, so if you're going to do like a glaze, it definitely fills that, which would be more

and more accurate comparison. I got it. So I guess that's I could see it being just going into a cave and coming out somewhere else, because, like I said, I knew people who are cavers who explored one of these things in Guatemala. But uh, if it's not that much of a drop to the lake though, so I don't know. Yeah, it's just hard, it's rough. I mean this, yeah, this particular cave that they want to because the river actual went into the side of the mountain, it just

disappeared and it came out the other side. So they went down in wet suits and with with just tons of rope and gears and stuff and throw petons into the side of the case because they were vertical drops and horizontal and then you have to go vertical drops again. Well, and that's what I just want people to do here, right, Yeah, no, I mean I really, I really think you could solve the mystery by um diverting the diverting the water and just sending some people down on ropes with wet suits

and stuff and just go down to ways. I mean, obviously you know you can't go down too far and certainly you know eighty thou feet maybe alright, alright, but shall we? Shall we move on? Or did you have any more on this? That's all I have. No, I don't know. It's just it's a mystery. People are stealing on our water again, man people. Oh and before I forget um, this was a listener's suggestion to Tom, right,

I think it's been a while anyway, Thanks Tom. Thanks Tom. Okay, well now we've got we've got mine, which I cheated. I didn't. I didn't pick one hole. I have sixty nine hundred of them. I'm sorry, we're only going to talk about three holes. Hello. Yeah, well you added that other goofy one in the beginning. I stuck to my gun. Well yeah, well I cheated. We have to talk about it.

What I found is the band of holes in Peru. Okay, all right, I'll give you a path on this one because it is just basically one giant string of holes. What we've got here is it's like I said, the band of holes is sixty nine hundred uniform holes in the ground there in the Pisco Valley, which is on the Nasca Plateau, which is in Peru. Uh and the

Nasca Plateau people have probably heard about it. That's where the Nasca Lines are, those giant lines that are carved on the top of a plateau that when you see the satellite you see they're like birds and weird stuff. That is it the Aztecs that people think about. Those The Aztecs were in Mexico. So the Inca Inca, thank you. That's that's who it is. So this is in an area that's known for doing huge scale things. Yeah, huge scale, strange things. Yeah, the Incas did a lot of interesting stuff.

They did. They did a lot of interesting pointless stuff. Well, the this plateau is about to give you kind of a reference. If you look on a map and Peru, you'll find the town of Piececo. It's about fifteen miles giver take east of Piececo. Is where it's at. Is that where a Piececo sour originated I don't know. Probably, Okay, let's just say yes, alright, alright, somebody out there do

a google on that. We're too lazy. So the band of holes extends for about a mile or so, and it's it runs north south and it runs over uneven mountain surface. Is it approximately north south or is it actually north south? It's approximates, it's not. It's not an actual straight line, and they're not a perfectly straight line, unlike all the other stuff that's on the top steel. The grouping of holes because they're they're drilled into the ground.

To use the word drilled into the ground inappropriately incorrectly, is it's a series of holes. So they can be six to ten in a row next to each other. It varies between how many across. Yes, yes, absolutely, and that can that band of holes can be anywhere from twenty to thirty ft across, because the holes themselves are typically about six or seven feet across, and anywhere from six or se having feet deep to just a few inches deep. Here's the weird thing about a few inches deep.

I was trying to find how people determine that they were a few inches deep, and I couldn't find any solid science on it, but they look like they're crumbling and they're falling apart, and they're kind of collapsing. So I think that when people say there are a few inches deep, they mean these holes have kind of filled in, So all this left is a couple inch depression in the ground. In some places, the holes, like I said, they're about anywhere between six to ten holes across, and

they're in a perfectly rigid line. So a set of holes directly after to set of holes. Sometimes they start to break apart and they widen a little bit. Remember I said it went from twenty to thirty feet across, So they get a little bit irregular, and they're placing and there they start kind of going straight up the hill and then they bend and we're talking up the upper mountains, so they're kind of going over ridges and

back and forth. If you were looking out on the map, think of it left or right east to west essentially, So they and they twist and they turn. So it's really weird that it's just this whole series of lines that just go up and eventually they come to a saddle is the term that I would use in the mountain. It's where two ridges are two sections come together and form that that V and they stop. That's the end

of them. Maybe their tools broke. I gotta say and courage all of our listeners to go out and look at the aerial satellite photos of this, because it's fascinating, it really and it's like it looks like a wide road from the From the almost it kind of does, except that when you get into the when you start looking at the satellite imagery and you start looking at roads, they're very different because it's this is a series of pock marks, is a phrase that I would use in

the landscape of the mountain, and then a road would be nice and smooth. It's kind of it's not really obviously, it's not a road. They've been there so long that the indigenous people have no idea where they came from. The people who live in the region, they just, oh, yeah,

they've always been there. They've just always That's always one of the really interesting things to me, because I feel like Indigenous people are really good at coming like they have lower surrounding things like that, right, and that like this is such a massive undertaking that had their people, their ancestors created it, had there been any kind of ownership of it in their history at all, they would

have heard about it. And so it's so interesting because I mean, you know, that means that like the people who created this are just like they're gone, they're gone, long gone. But they don't even have descendants, right that know of it anymore. Yeah, And that's that's exactly. They've been there for so long that nobody knows. It's just been there there. So it was is it possible this is this was a quarrying operation. Maybe they were just cutting out rock to using projects. Well, I don't know

that they would be. I mean, think about it's a six or seven foot across hole. So if you're cutting a pillar out at places this is at essentially a forty five degree angle. Is the mountain face. It seems like a bad place to be digging columns of rock out, and it seems like you could quarry it somewhere that's

a little more accessible. Yeah, And also obviously you want to quarry is close to wherever you're building your thing exactly, and so there's no ruins around there right well, And and that's something that we're going to get into that is part of one of the theories that I couldn't substantiate. But let's just we'll just take the theories from the top. Sure, there's a couple, uh some better than others. The first one is that people have hypothesized that these were storage

containers for grain. Just makes exactly zero sense. That you're exactly right. No capstones have ever been found. Because if you're gonna make a hole in the ground to store grain, you want to protect it. You got to remember the altitude that we're at, it's pretty dry, and therefore things last longer when they're buried in the ground, so you'd have a better record of them. No record of grain

has ever been found in these holes. People have dug around and tried to figure it out, and there's you know, whatever the local grain is. I'm not it's not wheat. But let's just say if they were using wheat, you would think you would find wheat seed. Yeah, but like and just why why why would you build a building? Yeah, or like make it wider? Why it's like very small, very long? Well, you would think, you mean, because grain

is being grown all over the place. If this was a typical way of storing it, then you would find this whole scattered all hither and yon, it wouldn't be in one place in a mile long wye. And at the base of this mountain. It is amazing to look at the satellite imagery because it is this baron rock face and then suddenly lush greenery at the base where it opens up. There's just no good reason. There's no

good reason. And you want to store your stuff in like similar climates, you know, like up a mountain, in the bottom of the mount Yeah. Yeah, So then people say, well, maybe they're individual graves to put people to put to bury people in the same thing with the grain. Not a single human remain has been found in any of the holes. And these are they dug in? What's the soil like there? Is it dirt or is it solid?

They're carving him in a rock face. So yeah, I guess that The only thing I would say is like ashes that could have been blown away, But it just seems like a lot. But if I'm if I'm putting the ashes of my ancestors and the bodies of my ancestors into a hole, wouldn't I want to cover them? Well? Maybe not. I mean, you know, different cultures have different There's the sky burials with stuff like old that we literally have no idea where it came from. Who knows

what those people believed. That's very true, but it's still a little weird. Yeah, very Now the next one is he next theory even weirder. Uh, And I gotta laugh at the internet right now. So one person made mention in their article about how it looked like coreing holes or pilot holes that will be done for mining to see what's in the rock and in the soil. Somebody said, and I quote to this Texas Boy, it looks like

what a drilling rig would do. I do laugh at the Internet because that really made it hard for me to find new information because every site I started doing a find on for the words Texas Boy, because there was a lot of prodigious copying and pasting on the internet.

But it but people are saying, well, you know, maybe it's an alien civilization that came to this planet at one time and they were doing samples up the mountain to see if there was anything in the rock that they wanted to use, and they found nothing and they left either that they finally found something useful and then they minded out and carefully covered it back up, I got. Yeah. My problem with that is that like they would have done that other places too. They were done all over

the place and not just in that one spot. And that's the huge samples I like. Okay, to be fair, I don't know how giant these alien rigs were, right, but like that's a huge sample site just be going up and like it's not like the dirt is going to change in like the four ft in between. Yeah, that's so. Yeah. Those those first three theories, yeah, they're pretty well kicked off. Okay, Okay. The next one says that it was created by an ancient civilization. Okay, yes,

but for what we don't know, huh. And here is why everyone loves to point out when they are looking at it, that we've got the Nasca Peninsula and we've got Machu Picchu, which is relatively close to this area. I don't know exactly, but I'm just saying in the region there like the hugest of the area's let's just I don't know how many miles, but let's not worry about that. But there was a lot of really intricate building going on at that time. And one of the

things that people point out is you remember that. And I know I showed you two is and everybody who looks at the satellite images that saddle where the whole the band of holes suddenly ends to me in the imagery, I couldn't tell if it was just rock outcroppings or it almost looked like there was some spots of sections of holes. But this outcropping, the saddle almost looks like a slow up of the mountain came down. And right, Yeah, there are images out there where people will say, look

at this piece of rock. It looks black in this section of rock, which is hundreds of feet across, and they're saying it looks blackened, as if there was an explosion or maybe maybe alien landing site and they just burned it with their rockets. Right. Uh, so I showed you two. There's no blackening. I'm using air quotes. You're blackening of the soil. I'm afraid. I think that's actually

a little bit of photoshopping. I think maybe somebody did some contrast adjustments and just made it look what they wanted to look like. But they're also in those same articles, there's another image they show of these blocky, ruinous structures. It looks like blocky, ruinous structures and kind of ravines or carve outs in the mountain. I couldn't find that. I looked around, I looked all in that area. I spent probably an hour combing across the map. I couldn't

find it. But people say, well, based on the blackening and this ruined city that we find, we think that it's similar. It's the same culture that that built Machu Picchu and the Nasca lines. But I can't finding that. I don't even know if that's in the same area or how zoomed in somebody was. It really raises a lot of red flags for me. Have you done did you do any looking for archaeological sites in Peru see if the any of the because I mean obviously these

things that there were ruins, they would be there would be. Yeah, And and that was exactly I couldn't. I couldn't find it. I couldn't find it as I looked around. I again, I'm afraid that I think that because here's what would happen is people would show that image of this supposed ruined site and then Machu Peachu, and they would show how the structures, the squares, the buildings and the stones were kind of similar, but I could never find him. I mean, I don't know if it's not invention finding

what you want to find. Yeah, I'm not going to point a finger and say somebody's outright lying, but I couldn't find it to back it up. So I I worry about that that this whole it's it was a city by an alien civilization that then was bombed at an ancient civilization, which I read a really interesting article recently, which I will definitely be talking about with you guys at least, and hopefully we'll be able to formulate a show out of it about this whole ancient civilization, ancient

anything aliens kind of. But it was very, very interesting. But I mean, you know, we've talked about this before, and I'm sure we will continue to talk about the fact that there's strong proof of highly intelligent ancient cultures. Even in North America. There's the Clovis culture, There's like, you know, cultures that we are we hardly have any

record of it all. Yeah. Absolutely, they're just getting civilization going back a long long time and they're just so old though we don't have But I think that this sort of thing really degrades that argument, you know, it just it's looking for some stuff that doesn't exist, and it just it always makes me really sad when people trying to make these claims, because it's like you're really just like weakening the argument because you're just looking for whatever.

And of course, like a satellite image, you zoom in enough, it's gonna get picks. Late enough, you're gonna be like, oh, look, totally rock outcropping like square buildings. No, it's pixels. Calm down. But also it could not be. But there is one I don't know that I would say theory, but a fable that supposedly explains the band holes. And I can't find anywhere that says that this fable is in X record or Y record. I can't. I can't lock it

into where it came from. But there is a fable that people say explains why the holes are there, and maybe it is from the indigenous people. But Devin, if you don't mind, could you read the paple for us, since it's a quick one. It's yeah, I can, I can read it. Okay, everybody ready for storytime? Story Time thousands of years ago in a valley, in a place that we now called Peru, there lived a large community

of nymphs. For a long time, they lived happily among the trees and rivers, until one year there was a drought. The revers started to dry up and the trees began to die. The nymphs knew that they had to make an offering to the rain god, and they knew what he loved the most was the music. What they couldn't figure out was how to get the music on the earth to reach the guy's above where the rain guy lived. They tried singing, but their voices were not loud enough,

and neither were their musical instruments. They tried making bigger and louder instruments, but nothing worked. Finally, one young nymp had an idea. She began digging a big hole in the ground, and once she was finished, she stretched several long reads tightly over the surface. When she plucked the reads, the sound produced was louder and more magical than any

of the other musical instruments in the world. All the other nymphs followed her lead, and within a few hours the whole valley was covered in large hole holes reads stretched over their surfaces. The nymphs began to play their new instruments together, and for hours and hours they produced one beautiful melody after another, till the music reached all the way up into the skies. At last, the rains came and they lived once again in peace. To this day.

The large holes can be seen in the Pisco Valley in Peru. Wow. And evidently the moral of that story is creativity can help you through a tough challenge. I guess so. So has anybody ever tried to replicate that by stretching large reads over the holes and seeing I think could play music just like jumping on in the holes over and and if they could do it, nothing I know of. So, but basically, in the I mean, that's that's as far as it goes. We don't know.

I mean, they're they're a mile or a couple of miles long, this band of holes. It meanders up the mountain until it disappears, and we have no idea why

they're there. You know, it seems like the people in that area seemed to like to create stuff that would be visible to from the eye of God, like the NASCAR lines, you know, all those all those things that they did, right, the men and mysterious creatures, you know, I mean they created those because they wanted to, you know, create this piece of art that God could see up in heaven. And so this might be kind of in line with the same sort of things that they wanted

to create something that would be visible from heaven. And maybe this was their first attempt at it, and they realized that the series of holes, it's like stipling in art. You know, you do a series of dots and they do another series of dots, and it kind of looks like that. But maybe they figured out that that is way too much effort rather than just digging a shallow trend.

It was something I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah, this one's the head scratcher, that kind of And you know, you guys know me well enough to know that I always have like a theory that I really like. But yeah, one of the other interesting things about it is when you look at those things to the satellite photographs, is that they go along in this in this perfect in these perfect rows, and then they'll stop and there'll be a break. Uh, not not too huge of a break,

but it's very visible. They say, A one line of holes. Yeah, yeah, a couple of lines of holes are missing, and then they start up again, and they keep going and nets again. That's kind of a mysterious thing. Yeah, it's it's obviously weird, but it's it's a weird. But that, ladies and gentlemen, is the whole story. I've been hanging onto that all week. Yeah. So, but they have have they dug down any deeper to see if there's anything underneath these things, not that I'm

aware of. I don't think that they've actually dug down deeper than the holes. I imagine that they're kind of never protected site and they just don't let, you know, regular old Yahoo's hop in there with a shovel and start digging. I mean, okay, regular old Yahoo's, but like we're regular old Yahoo's. Yeah, but like, yeah, archaeologists must be fascinated by this, right, I would think so, Yeah,

I think so. I don't know, it's just yeah, archaeologist, I want to go down there and do some digging, or at least you go down there with metal detector there, some ground penetrating radar stuff like that and see what you can figure out. Yeah, that'd be a good idea. Yeah, yeah, well that that Ladies and Gentlemen. Is the end of this particular series for the show. I hope you like three in a row. Let us know what your thoughts are. Yeah, if you like them? Uh, now all the information about

these stories and be on the website. That website, as always, is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can listen to the show there, or you can go ahead and leave a comment if you want to talk to us about stuff. You can always find our shows on Stitcher, so if you didn't get a chance to download it, you can just stream it right off of any mobile device. We're also on Facebook, so we've got our Facebook page so

you can find us and like us. We've also got the group, which still didn't have a lot of activity, but it's there. Folks want to chat, and of course, if you want to go ahead and send us an email, please by all means do email address is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Obviously, to tonight's stories came out of listener suggestions, which is fantastic. And uh, is there anything else that I've been missing? I feel like we have some listener mail. Uh, well, I haven't seen

any emails that have backed up. Oh well, okay, I'm sorry. We have our like an iTunes review that I really liked that I wanted to read. Oh I haven't been on I've looked at iTunes in a while. Oh well I'll read it. That's fine, fine, fine, fine, okay. So, as you know, being an iTunes review, it's like pretty anonymous, right,

but it's titled Overheard Conversations at mcmanimums. That says, if you've ever finished off a ruby in the setting Portland's Sun, you may have heard the perky, educated female, the excitable hipster, and the more laid back older gentleman conversing intelligently on numerous subjects while having a good time. This podcast hits

it all. I've been a long time Mysterious Universe listener and thinking sidewits hits those subjects while feeling like you just walked in on your old friends talking enjoyable, friendly and a wide range of topics, which I just I love this. I think, like, not only this person is like from our area, right, he's calling me perky and educated, which I long is this a guy or a girl? I don't know. I can't tell it just I don't know. I just assume he on the internet. Exactly assume she

but I guess. Okay, anyway, so yeah, this person is educated, so and you know I just what um okay, so you're the educated young lady Perkey and cadd and Joe is what the older laid back, laid back older gentlemen. So that leaves me the decitable hipster. Well okay, alright, so I admit that I'm excitable, and you know I I wear cool hats when you're what I've been doing. I've been doing that since before it was cool. But crap, and you drink. Maybe are your graphic designer. You don't

wear skinny pants? So no, I don't wear Okay, no, I I do that. That is a great review and I really enjoy that. Yeah, that's for anybody who's knows Portlands or mcmanimons. That is a spot on description of what I guess this show is the person who wrote that, thank you very much. I guess that's fantastic. That's right. You were saying at the top of the show that like people were asking for a description of what we are. Boom.

I don't know that I'm going to go around saying I'm an excitable hitster and I'm not older, and I'm not really a gentleman, all right, I guess the description applies to me and me only. Alright, perky educated young lady. There we go, all right, ladies and gentlemen. Well, that is the end of what we've got do. Let us know, though, if you like the Today's Show, if you like having a number of smaller stories packed into one episode, we we'd like to try these things out, so let us

know what you think. That having been said, we're going to call it a night, So thanks a lot. We'll touch you next week. It's the lizard people, I'm telling you, stealing our water. Stupid lizard people.