Thinking Sideways: Hinterkaifeck Murders

the bonus on Thursday. As you all know, we're doing Thinking Sideways most wanted the episodes you all have been asking us about for years now, this is one of them we've been too lazy to do. Basically, Yeah, yeah, this is the this is like shocking. I'm actually I was surprised that this wasn't the number one number one. It is the tie for the first runner up. Yeah it is, you means second place. Yeah, but yeah, definitely. We've gotten a lot of emails about this one for

the past couple of years and even just this week. Yeah, any of them. Yeah, I admit it's kind of a cool little mystery. But well let's let's just talk about it, Okay, you ready? Oh, By the way, I totally forgot to introduce myself and my lovely co hosts. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve And Okay, you met us earlier this week. Yeah, you know, he wouldn't know us now. I probably don't need to really be saying that, but yeah, you know us by now. But let's let's go on

with our mystery. Yeah. This, uh, this took place almost a hundred years ago on a farm in Bavaria, which is located near the village of wongan In in Bavaria. Of course, it was part of the farmstead called Kaik and I'm not sure exactly how that got that name, and then the farm was called hinter Kaifek for some reason. That means ter me behind, so we're behind the town they were behind the Kaek. I don't know. Well, German is a language that co cantonates, so that was a

big words. You know what co canton is, right, How do you know a word? I don't know. Co canton It is a something you use in Excel. It's the name of a formula. Yeah, but co cantonate. It's also it's something to do with languages where you literally merged the two words to shove twenty words together to make the town name that is so long it doesn't fit on one road side. Like these things happen, that's how it got the name. Yeah, there's long words in German.

Have no doubt about that. Anyway, back to our story. Uh, this farm was inhabited by the Grewber family, which was fairly well known in the area. I'll give you their names. Andreas Grewer sixty three. His wife Cazelia was seventy two. Their daughter, Victoria Gabrielle, was thirty five. She had two kids, Gazelia seven and Joseph, who was two, and he also

had a maid, Maria Baumgartner forty four. Victoria was a widow her husband, Carl, Carl Gabrielle was killed in nineteen fourteen and World War One, although there's been a little contention about that. Carl. Carl's family, by the way, was from the area. He was from a neighboring farms. That's how you met people back then. It really is. Yeah, crazy, Yeah, you know, the Internet wasn't a thing. Yeah, there was no okay keeping Yeah, he just had to make do

with a very tiny pool village. Yeah. Uh so Andre's gruber was ahead of the family, of course, and he was actually not that well liked. Yeah, he was an unfriendly, loner kind of guy. Not He beat his wife on a regular basis, also abused his children. Uh. And he was all very highly suspected of committing incest with his daughter Victoria. Also cool, Yeah, I know, a great guy. Uh. And in fact the nine both Andreas and Victoria were tried and convicted for incests and they both went off

to the pokey for a while. She got a really short sentence, she only got a month and he got a year. And I don't think they were allowed to share the same cell. I'm I'm just distressed that she was also convicted for that. Like she was like, oh yeah, dad looked like I don't know that. Well, she was an adult though she would have been like her. But his wife was nine years older than him and was still getting beat up by him. I mean, was his wife Causilia? Was she right? Was that his first wife

or his second wife? Because I swore I read somewhere it was his second wife, But I could be making that up, you know, I don't know, that's a good question. I hadn't know that but I don't, but he probably you know, quite often in those days, you know, you have a wife, she died in childbirth, and then you get another wife. You know, it happened along the story how it happens. I know where Devon's coming from with the why is Victoria in trouble for this? Because typically

this is a kind of behavior that starts very early on. Yeah, it's early behavior, and it's not necessarily voluntary behavior. Correct. Yeah, at least in the beginning and later on you don't know any better, and it may be a case of she didn't know any better. Yeah, that's could have been going on. Let's get away from this subject. Yeah, yeah, back to I don't really like talking about incest anyway. That we'll talk about it a little bit more anyway.

But uh see, Andreas, besides being abusive, was also a control freak and he and this might have been because he of sexual jealousy of a Victoria, but maybe because he was a control freak or a combination there. But he told Victoria that she was forbidden to marry again, and he kept her a short leash, and in general of the family was kind of sullen, reclusive and just not that well liked. Victoria's reputation was a little better

because she's saying in the church choir. She had a good voice apparently, although how you know, she was also kind of promiscuous and back in those days, you know you think that. Well, case in Point Rach in nineteen twenty two, she had a two year old despite the fact that her husband died in nineteen fourteen. So let's

just point that mouth out. Yeah, you know, that seems important. Yeah, and there was there was some question about who the father of the kid was, if it was her her dad Andreas, or if it was a neighbor or several other men from around the town who claimed to have had relations with her. Yeah. Well, anyway, back to our little mystery here at the farm, things started getting kind of strange. In ninety one there made suddenly quit her job and left. Uh and not Maria, her name was

not Maria. Yeah, and asked why she suddenly decided to leave so leave, the maid said that she'd been hearing strange voices and noises in and around the house and sounds of footsteps from the attic. She was convinced that the house was haunted, and so she quit and yeah, the group was tracted up to mental illness, but the source of all this was the groupers themselves, so it may be that they were asking about it, they made

this up. And maybe the real reason she left was because Gruber was Andreas Gruber was abusive towards her or or coming onto her. Or perhaps she got wind of the incests and that kind of turned her off and she decided to leave. It's hard to say if that's that. Stuff about the maid think in the place was yeah, But it also seems like that's a weird thing to

say about why she left. Like, if you get to make up whatever story you want, why wouldn't you just say like she wanted to go to a warm and climate because wait, wait, no, I need to say this, but I'm gonna I'm gonna put us into the mindset of a very controlling man. In the nineteen twenties, women

are hysterical. It's a common thing to call it for to say that woman is hysterical, meaning she's mentally unstable, and everybody's like, oh, yeah, no, you're right, that women are Yeah, then you just say, I don't know she was crazy, I don't know why she left. You don't say, like, but I don't know our house is haunted. Yeah. People also always volunteered too much, especially when they're lying. As it turns off. And then degree Wers actually could have

been telling the truth. Maybe she really maybe she really was just mentally ill. And then I really thought the house was haunted, or maybe the house really was haunted. I don't know, probably not. It's about six months later things kind of got stranger. This is after the maid left. Yeah, the six months after she left. This is in March.

Andreas was outside after a snowstorm and he found some footprints in the snow that originated in the forest and came across their property and right up to the house. And he searched all around. He circled the house and the barn and everything, and could not find tracks going back to the woods. Yeah. I heard in one account. I heard that the footprints originated at the forest, not coming from the forest, just appeared as though they'd been dropped the forest. I thought that was a fun little

addition to the story. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, some of this stuff apparently, uh he did, he did talk about some of his neighbors about some of this stuff. At first, I was like a little bit skeptical of some of some of this, but I think that apparently a lot of this did happen, because there's been a lot of a lot of absurd stuff also inserted into the story as usual, and that's yeah, Yeah, I'm really desperately trying not to be the wet blanket on this one today.

I've actually been kind of a wet blanket on the entire most wanted Yeah, well we all have there's a reason we haven't done them yet. Well, so at this point, he did the next obvious thing, which is he searched the house, and he also searched the barn in the tool shed, and it didn't find any signs of an intruder. And also no more footprints. No more footprints. Yeah, and uh, a night, I don't know if it was that night

or something. Sometimes shortly thereafter, he woke up to strange noises coming from the attic, and he grabs the lantern and heads up there and searches the attic found found nobody hiding there and nothing going on, and so it seemed like there was a trespasser. He advantaged what the noises from the attic were probably squirrels. You know, I don't know creat it could have been. It could have

been creators, rats, squirrels, whatever. And then a few mornings after that, Andrea sound a newspaper from Munich on his porch. Nobody in the family had bought this newspaper or read this newspaper. Yeah, and stomachcounts. He found the newspaper at the edge of the forest again to also but yeah, apparently the newspaper again was something I took with a

grain of salt, but apparently it was actually true. He asked the local post man if anybody in the village had ever received this newspaper, and the postman said no, I did not recognize it. Interesting. Yeah, another creepy thing. Victoria noticed a strange man standing at the edge of the forest watching the farm. Later, Andreas also noticed a man in the woods watching the farm. Yeah, kind of creepy.

And then March thirtie, a set of keys to the house disappeared, and they had two sets of keys apparently. And then and he keep again repeated this to one of his neighbors. I can't remember which one. This is all discovered later by the police when they interviewed everybody in the area, uh, when he was searching or the farm for the keys, because obviously they could have been dropped to anywhere in the barnyard or the barn or wherever.

And so he found that the lock to the tool shed was all scratched up, as if somebody had tried to jimmy it or pick it. Yeah. I've been told that Andreas told most of the stuff to his neighbor, Lawrence Schlittenbauer, although I'm not sure if that was true. It appeared to me that he and Schlittenbauer were not actually on great terms. But you don't have to necessary only be on great terms with somebody to talk to him. Yeah, yeah, sure,

especially when weird hanky stuff is happening. Yeah yeah, especially maybe if he Maybe it's that Andreas was suspicious of his neighbor. You know, every once in a while, if you're suspicious of somebody, you'll do that like, hey, you know, by the way, some strange stuff, some weird stuff going on, It wouldn't happen to see the set of keys. Suspicious people do sometimes when they say like hey, this it's it's the weirdest thing. This thing happened. It's the equivalent of,

you know, like texting your boyfriend. I just think it's funny that, right. You don't Okay, you don't text your boyfriend that thing? Nope, never have cool I mean either. That's why you're married. Now sorry Gay Back to their story here. Yeah, that's so the neighbor Schlittenbauer just as a side here. One of the reasons things weren't all that great is that Schlittenbauer had been courting Andreas's daughter, Victoria,

and I don't know how far that went. Victoria actually said that Schlittenbauer was the father of their two year old Joseph. Yeah, although everybody in town believe that Joseph was actually fathered by Andreas. But yeah, and uh, and then there's Schlittenbauer actually denied it. He accepted the first and denied it U and and so and of course when he offered to marry her, Andreast forbide the whole thing and very emphatically. And so that's why things weren't

so hot between them. But again, I don't know exactly how how deep the hostility was. Okay, so that was March thirties when the keys were lost on March thirty one, a new maid, Maria Baumgartner, arrived to replace the one that had left six months earlier. That house must have been filthy. Yeah, yeah, so anyway, I talked about bad timing. Yeah, seriously, she arrived just a few hours early before the unpleasantness began. Yeah.

The next day was a Saturday, and Gazalia, the seven year old girl, Victoria's daughter, didn't show up for school, so apparently they had six days of school back in those days. And on Sunday the family didn't show up for church. Then on Monday, April three, Gazilia again didn't show up for school. And also the postman noticed that

nobody was collecting the mail, so, huh what happened? So Schlittenbauer, Lawrence Schlittenbauer, the neighbor, Uh, he got windows some of this stuff because it's a small town that people are all talking. And so he said his two sons by the farm to check on the family. Uh. That was on Tuesday, April fourth that they came back and said they had walked around the farm and hadn't seen the had seen the family and hadn't seen anything and really

out of place. Um. And then later on Schlittenbauer rounded up a few more people and went over to check the place out himself, and they did a more thorough search. And when it said opened the door or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe his sons didn't feel like it was really proper for them to open the you know, go into the barn or into the house. Here's the problem that I have with the sons went over and then later on a whole troop of people from the village. You go over,

and then eventually the police are going to come. You've got a gadget people marching around this place in the snow. Oh yeah, yeah, there's there's no way. Yeah, what's happening. Yeah, it's like that's one of the things that makes it unsolved. That definitely the whole thing, doesn't it. Uh Yeah. Anyway, So in the barn they found four bodies. It was Andreas and his wife Bazilia, daughter Victoria, granddaughter Casilia had all been bludging to death, bludging and chop attacked to

death with a pick axe. Although the murder weapon wasn't there. All they all they knew it was that there were these four bloody, battered bodies, some more bloody than others. Holes in their heads. Yeah, yeah, and uh, and then their faces in some cases their jaws broken and faces torn, all torn up and stuff. And they had all been covered with hay stacked stacked on top of each other.

I'm not sure why. They then went into the farmhouse and found young Joseph two years old, dead in his his cot in his mother's bedroom, and the maid, the new made Maria, was also found dead in her bed. Uh. And they had been covered also, the maid with a bed sheet and Joseph with one of his mother's skirts.

So they kind so whoever did cover the body bodies um And appears that granddaughter Kazilia didn't immediately die from her bludgeonings, and the autopsy reveal that she probably had lived two to four hours after getting her head injuries because she pulled wads of hair out of her head, because she was probably laying there probably you know, who knows, I mean, maybe she was paralyzed, partially paralyzed from you know, getting blows to the head and you're sitting there and

you know, and you know, you're sort of laying there helpless next to the dead bodies of your grandparents and your mother. You know that'd be a stressful situation. Well, I was just thinking she might have I mean, I'm not even thinking that she maybe did it on purpose. But you're trying to move, if you're in a kind of a semi paralytic state like that, you're trying to move and you're grasping, and you're like, oh, I feel something.

I can tell I've got a hold of something hard holding on and then it gives way and then you're there was something there. Let me go back for it not being able to see what you're grabbing in. In a lot of the accounts that I read, there was some suspicion that she was not the last to have been hit, that she didn't die, but that she perhaps witnessed the murders of Yeah, they thought she was dead

and she wasn't, and so she witnessed it all. And that's it's a fairly typical traumatic response, is the like ye hair and yeah, they don't know actually what order they were the four of the one were killed, and so it could have been maybe Cazilia went out there first, or maybe Victoria and Casilia went out there first, and then well they do they do suspect right, it was one at a time, though, don't think. Well, yeah, but

there's no way to really know that. You know, it could have been it could have been a couple first. I think the only way to know that is the lack of a sign of struggle. Yeah, it didn't appear that anybody fought back, so you would assume that it was one at a time. Yeah. Probably, they couldn't tell. But somebody goes out to the barn and then they don't come back, and then somebody else, somebody else goes

out to check out them, they don't come back. You think after the third or fourth time, people would sort of like, you know, smarten up and take a gun with them when they go out there. Well they stopped going after the fourth one. Yeah, many of them. Yeah, yeah, so that's pretty brutal. Yeah. Yeah, it was a very vicious killing. So Schlittenbauer sent his sons to go get the police. I don't know how far they had to go to find a police. I don't know if they had to go down to the village or to one

of the larger villages nearby or what. But they had on their way. They though they everybody they ran into, they told them what had happened. Over a hinter k and so it's this is a weird comparison, but you know that I'm seen in love actually actually yeah, the one right where he finally goes to propose to the girl and he is not at the house and they all walk through the village and every single by the end of it, it's just like thousands of people standing there.

I'm trying to lighten this situation here, you guys, come on. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of people granting, a lot of people. Yeah, lots of people. Was Hugh Grant, wasn't it. Oh? Yeah, So anyway, work work gets all around all over the village. So everybody from the village, like you said, you know, comes up to the farm and tramples everything inside. Eventually the police arrived and they started doing the usual thing,

taking pictures and you know, and did they actually take pictures. Yeah, they took pictures, but they didn't draw a layout of the barnery or yeah. That wasn't the most Yeah, yeah, they didn't really draw the lay out. It wasn't the best investigation, I don't think in terms of gathering fingerprints. They did a real bang up job either. They did search it pretty thoroughly. They even use canine units. Uh.

And they didn't find the murder weapon. Yeah. And then eventually, at one point the Munich police were brought in because obviously they were they were the big players and as as far as I know, this might even still still be an open case. But they question yeah, that's the question. A lot of suspects and the most recent one was in six so they're still on the case, though obviously not pursuing it quite as hard. There was a police

force class, yeah that looked into it. They've done. Yeah, it's one of those those cases they use every now and again. Yeah, there was one that was not so long ago the way they like two seven. Yeah, and they finally said, no, it's it's unsolvable. Yeah. Oh yeah, stop trying to solve it is unsolvable. Yeah. But the report's interesting. Of course I don't read Germans, so i'd use Google Translate, and it was lots of muffins involved. Yeah, it came out a little garbling. Yeah. I read that

one too. It's difficult. Yeah. Uh So back to the to the police at the time, they finally concluded that some person or persons had lured them out one by one into the barn. Or again, maybe they just waited out there for people to show up. It's it's a

it's a farm. People are gonna go out to the barn. Yeah, and so, yeah, they were at the lure, or they just waited until they showed up and then murdered them with the pick axe, after at which case of murderer or murderers went to the farmhouse to finish off the

baby in the maid. This it was believed that Victoria and Gazilia had been the first to arrive, most likely um, because they had not been dressed for bed when they went up to investigate, and apparently the grandparents were uh, so you know, most likely they were just you know, and then the grandparents went out later on to check

on one thing that was going on back Yeah. Uh. Date of death was determined to be Friday, March thirty one, but when police questioned the neighbors the neighbors, some of the neighbors said that they had seen smoke coming out of the chimney of the house over the entire weekend, which was suggest as somebody had been home and somebody was home with six dead bodies. But yeah, when they looked at the house, there was evidence that somebody had

recently eaten meals. One of the beds appeared to have been slept in, but I'm not sure, maybe maybe not. In the smoke house they found a ham that had been freshly cut. In addition, all the cattle and livestock had been fed and were in good condition. The cows had been milked, and in fact, none of the animals on the farm had been harmed in any way, not even the dog. The dog was tied up in the barn and barking, and it was abelously not in the best of spirits, but was otherwise in good shape. So

the guy wasn't an animal killer anyway. We kind of

hand them that other creepy evidence. So this is really creepy that they found evidence that somebody had been staying in the hay loft in the barn, because they found it was at least a day or two, probably before the murders, because they found too deep depressions in the hay where it appeared that something that two people have been sleeping, and a roof tile and the roof of the barn had been moved aside so that they could peer out, apparently, and and surveil the farmhouse and the

barn yard, so it's real creepy. There might have been somebody's stay in the halof for two or three, who knows how long before the murders, watching those people. And another curious side, I don't I don't know if this was related at all to it. Victoria had emptied her bank account a few weeks previously, and when he was searching the house, the police had a large amount of cash.

And what's interesting is that the murderer had was, you know, in the house for days, and if he was there to rob them, then he would have been searching the house and he would have found that cash. The cash was still there, so obviously the murder, the motive for the murder was not robbery. This is when the police started to suspect that the murders were had been a crime of passion, considering the violence of the whole thing, considering they were able to rule out robbery. Uh suspicion

fell of course on the neighbor, Lawrence Schlittenburger. He's Lawrence Schlittenbauer. I keep on to say Schlittenberger, Schlittenbauer, because as I said before, he had been a suitor of Victoria's and then and Andreas had forbidden the marriage, and the cour Laurent had heard all the rumors that Andrea's was really the father of two year old Joseph, and that probably if he was, if he had serious feelings for Victoria, obviously, that would have probably kind of graded on him a

little bit. Well, I don't know that he probably had serious feelings for her, but regardless, I think it probably would have been a weird thing, real weird you know, at Christmas time, you know, here's dad and he's sorry. Yeah yeah, so uh, as I said, Victoria claimed that Joseph was Schlittenbauer's son, but but it's not really a given.

So the motive might have been jealousy. It could also been to escape child support payments, because apparently Victoria had been on the verge of suing Schlittenbauer for child support right before the murders. So you know, that could have been a trigger for the murder. I mean, having to support a kid that's not even yours or your that you don't believe he's yours. Yeah, yeah, that would be kind of calling. Yeah. Um. Some of the other evidence of his involvement was he was one of the members

of the original search party. It was reported when he was in the barn, the dog, which was also tied up in the barn, barked and snarled at him the whole time he was there. So that's interesting. Yeah, but there's some people the dogs just don't like, especially if your owner didn't like you when he was alive. That's true,

that's true. Also. I also, actually, I really think that Schlittenbauer didn't think it too very carefully if you left the dog alive, because obviously you come back, the dog's going to have that reaction to you if you if you killed everybody right in front of the dog, right, Yeah, so it was it was not smart to leave the dog alive. But then anyway, it's not just positive one way or the other. But another one of the guys who was there with the search party said that he

seemed kind of cold blooded about the whole thing. I mean, they're looking at these these these horribly horribly murdered bodies, bloody bodies, and he just unstacked the body and didn't show any sign of revulsion or disgust or anything like that. You just calmly unstacked him, and somebody said, why are you moving to corpses before the police even are here, And he said he needed to find his boy. So apparently he thought his son Joseph was somewhere in that

stack of bodies. Do we know if he served from World War One? Schlitton Barer. Yeah, it seems like he would have would have been the right age. It would have been the right age, would have been the right age. I was just thinking, okay, well it could be that. Yeah, he was pretty pretty near. I mean, un plus, anybody that's worked on a farm for any extended amount of time, which this guy has, you're used to dealing with death, dead animal, roll it over, cut it up to do whatever.

That's that's why his reaction doesn't strike mus a the serving in the war and be dealing with dead things. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, he didn't give a crap for the old man on the farm anyway. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. People also said he seemed to be really familiar with the farm and he lived near it. Yeah, but they yeah, they said he just like navigated around like, you know, so super easy. But I don't I don't know that

really means much of anything. He did get Schlittenbauer did get questioned by the police, but in the end they just didn't have any evidence to really like for the crime. M In fact, nobody has been arrested for the crime until to this day a year later. Actually, the Gabriel is that was Carl Gabriel, Victoria's husband. Their family lived nearby. Of course, they wound up buying at the inter Kaifak

farm for the really lilttle market price. Who wants to it. Yeah, yeah, So in n they bought it, and they decided to demolish the whole thing. And when they when they demolished the barn, that's when they found the pick axe. It was actually hidden under a false bottom in a hayrack, So they had a hidden they had a secret compartment in the barn that Schlittenbauer I don't think should have been should have known about well no, I mean, nobody

should have no right. I mean that unless well, family members, you know, family members would have been the only yeah, anybody who lived there. Yeah yeah, yeah, So that's that's another market in Schlittenbauer's favor. I think. Oh, they also found a penknife in that same compartment. Yeah yeah, oh yeah, one final grizzly note before we head onto our list of suspects. Yeah yeah, yeah. They decided to cut the heads off the bodies and sent the heads to Munich

for further analysis. I think also for commeding with a psychic or something like that. And uh, the headless bodies were buried in a buried in the grave and Vidholfen, which is I think somewhere to the west of the farm and like southwest I think. H the heads, of course have gone missing. So there's another unsolved mystery. Yeah, that whole World War two things. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Munich was at the receiving end of a lot of bombing and stuff in World War Two, so I guess

that's not too surprising. Now let's move on to our list of suspects. You guys have any favorites. I have some favorites speak as I find him hilarious. Yeah, man, favorites. Yeah, I don't hear. They're really Schlittenbauer, of course is everybody's favorite and motivesword jealousy. It's just hard to get out of pink show support. Um. But what I don't get about that is that again he wouldn't have known about that secret compartment in the barn. I don't think anyway. Well,

I was about to say he might have. He could. I guess he could, especially if he was populating with Victoria. I just say, if he was canoodling, you know, that would explain why there's depressions in the hayloft and why that one tile is easy to move. Is she might you know, have a you know, tell a guy, hey, come over and go in the hayloft and there's just one tile that you can look and watch for me to come out. But if you see my father coming, hide under the hay kind of thing. Yeah, so yeah,

I could have. Yeah that there could be a non sinister explanation for the thing in the hayloft, definitely. But the thing I got to get about Schlittenbauer had been the killer and he stayed in the house for days. Wouldn't he have been knows not in his own house? But I think so, I think so. And And also why would he want to stay there? There's that's a bunch of corpses around, Yeah, although they'd been covered up,

they had been covered up. Yeah, but that but that it's you're you're right in the middle of a very incriminating scene, you know, and it happens to come by, Yeah, exactly. And you've got a perfectly good home just right down the road to go to go to. So that's another reason I don't think it was Schlittenbauer. Yeah, but the rest of our suspects are kind of a thin list. We've got Carl Gabriel, Victoria's staying her husband. Yeah, yeah,

this is a big one. Of course, he was dead there in World War One, but there are claims that

he didn't actually die in the war. And there was actually a witness who said that he had seen Carl in a train in nineteen eight and Carl said that he had just been home and had seen Victoria apparently didn't talk to everybody's apparently saw her from a distance, saw that she was pregnant, and I decided, well, I think I'm going to just leave town and go take on a new identity, because obviously you see your wife and you've been you've been gone for like four plus years,

and well, yeah, it's not something most of us really want to deal with. Math doesn't that kind of does it? Could? It could work, I mean Joseph was born July ninth, nineteen nineteen, and so yeah, and so so I could have and also you could have been mistaken about the time. Maybe he saw him in early nineteen nineteen on a train and not nineteen eighteen, but with him. Yeah. The problem with it being Carl, though, is that the guys in his unit him saw him step on the land

I think it was a land vine. I have heard various things about that. Yeah, but I think it was understanding and they like he was face up and his body was destroyed, but his face was pretty much intact. His skull was cracked, see his brain, but it was definitely him. Yeah, but you know, Carl did have a decent motive. If Carl had somehow survived, I don't not a bad motive, yeah, yeah, yeah, a pretty good motive. I mean, yeah, but why come back all those years

after you've already figured out that your wife was fooling around? Yeah, exactly. So I don't know why. Maybe he just dwelled on it for a long time and finally just sort of went around the bend. Uh. So, Carl, we got to kick that with a grain of salt. Also, next suspect was Andrea s. Gruber's brother or excuse me, brothers. He had two brothers, and apparently his sister confessed on her deathbed that her brothers had done it. Why she was a little hazy on that she was on her deathbed

and all. Yeah, not a lot of time we give details. Yeah, So I mean, you know, maybe I don't again, are gonna be that this is gonna be one hell of a family feud. Yeah, I know, I mean talk about the McCoy's in the fields, Yeah, the McCoys in the hat fields kind of situation. Yeah, I don't. Again, it's it's the evidence is so skimpy that I really can't say. I bet, I really did. I really do have doubts about Schlittenbauer though, that some random random vis Yeah, a

random nuts job. And it would have to be a nut job because obviously he wasn't motivated by money. I mean, he was perfectly happy to hang around and eat their food for a while, you know, and sleeping a soft bed, but you know, take their money. But it could have been some sort of serial killer type. It's not like they haven't been out there for a long time. Not a new thing. Yeah. So yeah, although you still think if he was an itinerant serial killer that he would

have taken the money. Yeah, I would Yeah, why not? Yeah, but you're creepy. Yeah, so maybe a serial killer. I don't know anyway, that's about you guys have any more theories. I don't. Yeah, no, I really don't either. Yeah, this thing is probably one of the biggest murder mysteries in German history, if not the biggest. I mean it's it's a it's a serious thing. There was literally nothing there is the actual evidence, and everything is totally mismanaged and

badly investigated by the initial Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're constables, are they? Yeah? I don't I don't even know if they're the village the local village even had a constable. I mean, I don't know if they had to go to some one of the larger towns nearby to find a cop. I'm not sure at that day and age. I mean, as soon as you get the entire town trooping through, people are rubber neckers, you're gonna show up to look, you're the scene is as we saw last

week with the solder kids. Yes, yeah, yeah, So it's obviously never going to get solved. I mean and you know this is a tough case if Team Sideways can't solve it. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, I guess we did overlook one suspect. Yeah, who's that chop chop? Oh? That's right, good point. How you missed that super cobra? Does you know these snowy situations? Yeah? Okay, I'll buy that old it alright? Cool. Hey, I'm gonna give you a little a little information here, so don't shut us

off quite yet. This is very very important information. First of all, our website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can download episodes, you can look at links that we will be posting out there talking about the whole hinter kaifect thing, and of course you can leave comments. Um. Also, we're on iTunes so you can download our episodes. They're also please subscribe and leave a review, preferably a really

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you can pledge a certain amount per episode. Of course, totally optional, but if you feel like doing that then hey, patreons where to do it? Yeah? Yeah, anything else next week? Yea, yeah, the biggest one. Yeah. If you win, then I don't get to hear the episode. Yeah, exactly for free until next week. Guys. Yeah, what's actually guys? Bye bye