Thinking Sideways: Harold Wilson Resignation Conspiracy

Hi Joe, Hi, audience, Hey, we love you. Okay, let's it going wild? Uh So this week, according to the emails, yeah, we don't get any email. Somebody sayd us an email. Yeah, yeah, just kidding. But uh uh so this week we are going to be talking about another baffling mystery. Sorry to say this one doesn't involve any bloodshed, immulated bodies, or beheadings or anything, so sorry about that. Although I get I do get emails. I got an email a while back from some guys saying we were just focusing too

much on bloody stuff. I agree, we always do. Yeah, we kind of do a lot. So so yeah, no, not really, we did theok, we did that little useless head that somebody stuck in the that the tomb, Yeah there was that one was shut up. I'm sorry that was part of the key chain, I think. Uh where Okay? Back to our story. Uh. It begins in nineteen seventy six. On March sixteenth of that year, Prime Minister Harold Wilson of the United Kingdom suddenly announced that he was resigning

his job, just like that. He hadn't even been in it for two years. He also didn't give a reason why, he just said he was quitting. And people have been wondering about it ever since. And so people are saying why did he resign? And this has been going up for thirty plus years and as recently it's just this past August, the Daily Mail in the UK published you had another article about it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I quote them a little later on, but I'm not totally placing

total credence under theory. But just goes to show you in the UK at least this story is actually still talked about. Can we be honest in the UK? If it's been in the Daily Mail more than twice, It's been in the Daily Mail about thirty seven times. Because they love to trot things out on yeah, and I swear they've got like a rollo decks of old stories. Let's kind of like bat Boy. Yeah. I like that boy too. That boy appears in twelve Monkeys, by the way. Yeah, okay, First,

just a quick little background. Harold Wilson entered the British Parliament in as a Labor MP. Uh. He was actually it was kind of a Minister of Parliament. Yeah yeah, Member of parliament yeah, not military police. Uh. And it was kind of a fluke in a sense because he was actually in academia and some Labor Party types decided they wanted to put him up to run in this one district. They didn't think he was gonna win. They just wanted a candidate to run, and well, it turns

out he won. So he was a part of parliament and he was in parliament for like, you know, thirty years after um and he quickly rose through the ranks in the Labor Party that I didn't mention his Labor and by nineteen sixty three he was shadow Foreign Secretary. You know. So when you're when you're in the opposition, you're out of power of the party, you still have a full minority. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, still you still have a full cabinet, so he's like the minority foreign secretary. Yeah.

So essentially okay, so you're when you I prefer the way that they do that parliamentary thing like yeah, shadow member. Yeah, you got these guys secretary. Yeah. It's almost like Harry Potter was written in the UK or something almost. Yeah, so you get to wear a cape and everything. It's got a little mask. But uh yeah, okay, opportunity came knocking. Hugh gate Skill, the head of the party that's the Labor Party, was suddenly stricken with a rare disease called

systemic lupus uh arithmatosis. I'm sure miss pounced, yeah, but we'll it was. We'll call it lupas. Uh. He just was stricken and suddenly died. Bamn like that. It was at the age of fifty six. It's kind of a shocker for everybody. But of course they had to elect a new leader. There was a there was an election within the party. Harold Wilson was elected as gate Skills successor, and then in the following year in Ateen sixty four, Labor one of the the majority of seats in parliament and

Harold Wilson became prime minister just like that? Is that? Is that how it works? Yeah, it's just like it's like the House majority leader is prime minister kind of like that. After the head of the party, then you become prime minister. Interesting And what's what it took me a while to really wrap my head around is that in this country our elections are very regimented. There every four every two two years for certain seats, or every

four years for other seats, or six years for the Senate. Right, but if for Parliament it's no, it's it's you can't go more than five years without an election. So at two years you could say, I'm going to prove that we're still strong and having elections, or you could wait till four years or wait till the fifth. It's it's really kind of willing. Nearly a little bit is strength. Like the national elections are like that. Yes, literally, somebody is just like, you know what, let's have an election

this year. Yeah. Or sometimes what happens is say if if neither no party wins a majority, I saw the majority in the form of coalition, and sometimes the coalitions, well they start quarreling and they break up and bam and then and I know the Queen comes in at some point in this entire process, but I don't remember where that. Yeah, she comes down and just you know, spank him or something them. So Wilson just ends up

random movie prime minister. Yeah, so Harold, Yeah, it becomes prime minister and back to Hugh Gatescale for a second. His death, as I said, was very, very shocking to everybody, and of course it spawned a few conspiracy theories, which gives us a nice little mystery within a mystery, which was he murdered, Yeah, and by whom. It is the one theory that's out there, as the Soviets murdered him because they wanted him out of the way so that their buddy Wilson would be in line for the prime

minister slot. But anyway, we'll talk about that later, but it's still a popular theory. It's out there. Harold Wilson served as Prime Minister until nineteen seventy when Labor got turned out, So that's six years six years roughly, and then uh in nineteen seventy four Labor came back in, so he became prime Minister again, and then less than two years later in March sixteen, nineteen seventy six, he announced that he was resigning, and to this day we

still don't actually know why. And I'm trying to remember who was it that was prime minister in between, because it was one guy in a four yr span. Believe it was Edward Heath, Yes it was and he So this is where that whole like, we're going to have an election. He decided to do this, you know, to have an election to prove that what he was doing was right and was turned out maybe not, And it turned out he totally got it handed to him. And that's how how Harold ended up back in the back

in office. And I don't think Harold actually came in with a resounding majority. I think he had three seats extra. That was about it. So it wasn't huge, but it wasn't not to make him prime minister. All right, let's go straight into theories. I mean, that's a short story, don't you think. Yeah, I mean I guess in my mind the answer is pretty short, right, is like being

prime minister probably kind of sucks. And he did it for like six years and then he was like, oh crap, this again, and then he did it for a couple of years and he was like, no, no no, no, I really do hate this. By there you go, that's my theory. Episode over. Great, that's a plausible theory. Yeah, that is a plausible theory. But there's many others. Some of them are juicier than that. Yeah, I mean that's a good

practical theory. I do have to admit. Yeah. Well, first theory, and this is only a partial theory, was that his wife just wanted out. Because his wife, Mary was uh, he's a very private person and she didn't want to be a politician's wife. No, not really, she was like a professor's wife. Yeah. She really preferred the academic life and what that's then, that's what Harold was originally was an academic and she kind of preferred that, and she didn't like the publicity and all that she did. She

didn't like the nastiness of all the politics. And you know, in all the years since she left and then the years since he died, she's pretty much stayed out of the public life and she's not talked to anybody. She's given like one interview in that entire time. I think, Yeah, she's a very private person. Yeah, she went to like the big events and she would be by his side

and go to the dinners and whatnot. There's actually I was looking at through the records and there's a picture of Wilson and his wife and the other prime minister, Harold and his wife Harold hold at at an event. So it was like, wait, wait, which one are we talking about here? I love it? Uh yeah, don't don't lose that picture. By the way, thankfully it was on the international again. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

But but you know what the problem with the series is, it's a little late to make a career change because your wife wants you to, because he had that thirty some years prior to have come to that decision. Well, but there's also the point of like he was prime

minister for six years, right and then they lost. That would have been a really great time if his wife had been like not into the whole politician thing, that she could have said, Okay, great, you've done it right, you've kind of seen this thing through, you've led your party for six years. You did a really good job.

It's time to just take a step back. And then that's when, like for me, that's when I would have done it right, And that's when I think the logical time for something like that is not two years after you've become prime minister again in my mind, so I agree, I don't think this theory is good. Yeah, it's if this could have been a factor. I don't think it's see the all encompassing theory, right, you know what I'm saying. It might have been a factor in his thinking. Maybe. Yeah.

I think a lot of the stuff that is our theories, not all of them, and a lot of them could very easily have been simply contributing factors. Yeah, I think, Well, and he wasn't. He was in office for how long to seventies six? Break? Well, he was thirty one years. That's a long time to do something that your wife hates and to finally give in Exactly my point. Yeah, I don't like. If I don't, I don't get away

with doing anything. I was just gonna say, if you were doing something that your wife hated, would you get thirty one years out of it or would you be like, okay, I've done this for ten that was fun. Well, then again I am still podcasting. So she had past, yeah, you know, she she didn't even like ten Downing Street. Yeah, yeah, they when they when he won against seventy four, they didn't even move back into it because she really didn't like it. She thought it was a crappy little apartment.

So yeah, no ten Downing for her. Uh, let's get to our next one here. And this is the reason. Is the pressure of the whole thing. Reportedly at the time he was drinking like during the day because of his job was so stressful for him. Understandable. Yeah, and his wife again, Mary said, this is the one interview she gave said, quote, he'd had enough. There was a

seaman strike which he had just dealt with. He told me that he could not deal with it with the same level of energy and the same zest, and possibly he began to feel that his memory was going unquote that's what That's what his why, I said. Apparently just wasn't as enthusiastic about it as he used to be. Go, figure, well, if we gotta we gotta jump back here second though, and say, look at what was going on in the world at the time, both prior to and then during

the time that he was serving his second stint. I mean, we're looking at the late sixties. Things are getting kind of dicey. The early seventies, things are starting to fall apart. Economically for Britain, there's their stagflation going on, the unemployment rate is rising. They've got obviously it was three or four states of emergency were called in that four years, which you know is just astronomical because it didn't happen very often reduced work weeks, so people weren't making money.

I mean, like it was all kinds of social and economic things that were just going wrong, left, right and center. The crisis. Yeah, especially in the mid seventies well, with the rise of OPEC and the sudden shoot up in oil prices that damaged a lot of Western economies. It took us a long time to get out of that. So it wasn't just Britain, but sure they were hard, harder hit than st because we at least produced some oil.

I mean, I guess, I guess they produced some from the North Sea, but they're not the big well it hadn't that hadn't really come online, So that was that was the hard part of r C. Oil really didn't come in until the very end of the seventies beginning of the eighties. That was one of the things that really helped Thatcher out is that she you know, there was that economic boom just after she came in because the wells started really producing. Well, let's here for oil wells.

I guess, let's kill some more, stay for some cold. Uh. But you can see how the pressure of being the prime minister would just sort of wear on you. It's pretty exciting and glamorous for a while and all that power and everything, but after a while, it does it probably does wear you down. And so the reason I like this theory is that, uh, he didn't want to admit when he was resigning. He didn't want to say that, well, hey, I'm just a big weeding and I can't take the

pressure anymore. You know, you're not gonna say that. You're not gonna say, oh my god, I just can't take it. So maybe that's why he said he didn't resign. He wouldn't say why he resigned, you know. I mean, it's a little early in the game to to bring this up, but I wonder about a lot of times when there's the resignation, and it's a resignation in order to put your favorite in the spotlight so that when the next election comes up, they're the incumbent, and therefore they have

a better chance of getting elected. And it just suddenly struck me as we're talking about it, like, wait, he didn't do that. No wonder people are so confused by the whole I'm out here, thanks a lot, see you later. Yeah. I don't think he had a preferred successor really? Uh yeah, so again, I mean Jesus, you know, Harold, you really could have cleared a few things up and spare us a lot of speculation. Yeah. So the pressure, that's another one.

I think, you know, maybe maybe combined, combined with the wife that was unhappy, you know, and everything else, maybe decided to just screw it. What do we got next? Well, there's another theory, this is popular actually, which is Alzheimer's disease, which is eventually what did kill him. Unfortunately, he died in nineteen years after he resigned. H he was what in his early eighties, way passed. Let me think, No, I think we're tired around like six, do I think?

You know? And so nineteen years later, I guess he's around eight. Okay, yeah, close to it, late seventies early I had it written down somewhere in my notes, and I don't see it at all, so I evidently didn't really write it down. Yeah, it's been speculated that Wilson was already experiencing symptoms of it, and as he saw that his memory was was going and he was just kind of losing a little bit, it seems, but like

it would have been early. That's really early, because I feel like Alzheimer's takes not so long to really it's pretty rare that it takes more than I mean, typically it's like eight to ten years after diagnosis, and and so between the time when symptoms appeared you finally go see a doctor and they make a diagnosis, it's usually

less than three years. So between the time now, between the time that you experienced the first symptoms but you don't realize exactly what it is, and by the time you finally go to the doctor and get it diagnosed, usually you know, less than three years has gone by. Typically. Yeah, but the early symptoms can be really subtle. And I was reading some stuff about early onset that because there's

there's the two the two derivative or two types. There's the early onset, which is anyone under sixty five, and then just standard anyone over sixty five, And there was a study of this family that's got the gene four. They they're just genetically disposed to have it. And yeah, but there's non changes that happen in the brain, and so they've they've been tracking this this family, but they're seeing the beginnings of some of those changes happen as

early as eighteen or twenty years of eight. Are we talking like, no, like something that would be noticeable to changes in the brain, not not not noticeable exhibiting symptoms, but the the changes in the brain that then get the ball rolling. So it's possible that we may not know how to diagnose it. But people who are feeling the very very beginnings of this, you know, the anxiety and forgetful listen, things like that that's come in the very early stages. I mean, I don't know that they

all they all occur at the same rate. In other words, everybody experiences Alzheimer's at the same progression of symptoms. I think that's accurate. But I think what Joe is saying is that usually when people are starting to see the first symptoms right by the time they've been experiencing those symptoms for about three years, they go to the doctor because I would. I mean, I think most reasonable human beings.

Remember this is the seventies though, right, But I'm just saying that typically, right when you start to exhibit symptoms of that nature, you're going to start you're gonna go to the doctor, or you're at least going to mention to your doctor on your whatever exam that you do. You know, hey, I've been noticing I'm a little forgetful.

And if that's not a solid number, right, I mean, like three years, isn't like everybody gets diagnosed within their first I'm guessing that he probably had probably much more intensive medical care than most of us, get being Probably we probably saw a doctor a lot more often, was checked out, so it was and I agree with you that probably there was a lot of stuff, especially if he was Prime Minister, like the early onset symptoms of

kind of anxiety and forgetfulness. Those are things that you would kind of expect anyway, if you're super stressed out and busy all the time. So there's certainly some wiggle room there. But but for him to have, you know, have Alzheimer's at that time and then survive for another twenty years that's the unusual part. Statistically not so likely. I mean, it happens, as you say, statistically is one thing what people, what we see people do sometimes is

dramatically different. Yeah, and I think that. Yeah, I think so too. But I mean it could have also been the beginnings of he may have had some early forms of dementia that you know, and then it progressed into I mean, I'm making a I said that, I'm by no means versed and in exactly how all the symptoms work. Do we know when he was actually diagnosed with Alzheimer's I know, to be honest, I don't know that. I've never seen it listed. Well, I mean that's the private thing.

You don't have to yea, you don't have to say. And then and this doctor, I feel like it was in the early eighties for some reason, so about you know, less than a decade after he left. And that's that's what I was projecting here, based on when he died. It was a diagnosis or actually onset around eighty two, diagnosis around eighty five, somewhere around there. You know, statistically speaking, that's about when it should have happened, you know, so so that that would explain why, you know if he's

if he's I've always been so sharp. I know everything. I'm on top of it. I know everybody's name. Suddenly I can't focus, I don't know anything, and I am just so beat. I can't do this, and I sometimes I wonder if that's a dedication to the job factor. I can't do this job like I think I should. Yeah, and may he did say that his memory was kind of going. Yeah, yeah, she did say that. But again

he was he was around sixty. That might just be normal memory loss, did aging, I don't know, you tell us, Joe, that's sixty. All the drink, but all the drinking probably wasn't helping either. Yeah, definitely, Stress of course can cause memory loss. Do we know how much he was actually drinking? Not really now, see that's that's the problem. Yeah, you know he might have in the middle of the day said, you know what, poor me, pour me a glass. I'm going to have a glass with my lunch because they

need to calm down. And this was what was this the seventies. Yeah, liquid lunch was a normal thing. It was a lot more common back and really was Yeah, I remember you remember, I know you're that old Yeah, I remember you got written up for it recently too. I was just bringing it back, reviving it. Well, I know women couldn't work in the office, then it's fine kind of doing part of it. It's fine, that's right. The seventies. Oh, back to her. Back to the theory

though anyway, Alzheimer's right, I forgot what's my name? Yeah, the pro part of this theory that I like, it might explain why Wilson didn't say why he was resigning, because he didn't want to tell the world about his disease, which is kind of disease. Yeah, it's understandable, you know what I mean. Yeah, they don't don't even need to explain why. And Mary took care of him the whole time. It's not like except for the at the very very

very end, that he went anywhere for care. So they tried to keep it at home and contained as much as possible. Yeah, although he was he was actually going to to Parliament and stuff, even though he was like kind of gone, but he still wanted to go. And so everybody at that time new you know, I guess for me, the there's there's not like so much of a reason to not say like I'm stepping down to to health reasons. That's the thing you see politicians in

America do all the time. And we might even be even more prideful than you know people in the UK, and that that there's no reason to hide that there may be a reason to hide your specific diagnosis, but there's no shame in saying I need to take a step down due to illness or for my health or whatever. There's tons of precedents for it. There's tons of people

have done it in the past. And technically, you know, when a politician, at least here in America says, you know, I'm resigning my job for health reason, where I'm resigning to spend time with my family, that means he got caught having sex with one of the one of the congressional pages you're saying, and you know what, that's a fine line, so it means something different. I don't know, but that's what it was. A hike in the Appalachian Trail.

So I don't know. Yeah, of course the con part of this whole theory, but also timers as as I said earlier, statistically unlikely his memory loss was explainable by

other things. Uh, and Also that interview that I mentioned in two thousand seven with Mary Wilson, she said they didn't move back into ten Downing Street, as I said after the nineteen seventy four election, because quote, we knew that even if we moved, we wouldn't be in Downing Street for long unquote, which sounds to me like maybe Will was his planning his resignation, maybe even as early as nineteen seventy four. Sounds like he told his wife said, hey,

I know it sucks, I know you hate it. We're back here. I won't stay more than a year and

a half. Again, I find that I find that weird because if he knew that he wasn't going to do it, I guess that sometimes there's the line of I'm going to further the party versus I'm going to do what I should do for myself, because I personally would be like, you know, let's get my second, you know, pick somebody else who I think can do and at least a passable job, and make them the head of the party, win this election before as this election is going on,

so that I don't put myself and the country in that position. But I don't know, I'm I'm making it up. I guess. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, and after he left, you know there, I mean, the country didn't inspiral out of control. They're still there so far, so you know, I mean, I guess somebody reasonably decent succeeded him. So there we go. And who did succeed him? Oh you mean who his uh two took over when he resigned, successor his successor to the professor. Yeah, um, James Callahan,

because he's the one who didn't know I'm smart. Damn good. Okay, let's move on to our next theory. There's so many good theories in this one, which was a blackmail slash smear campaign. Apparently Wilson said more than once that they felt that m I five was out to get him, and he might have had a point, but we'll talk about that later, because it turns out there may have been another intelligence service that was also about to get him.

And this is according to another article. Apparently Wilson was supposedly obsessed by the possibility to the South African Intelligence Service was out to smear him and other anti apartheid politicians. Let's we call this was a mid seventies there was still white rule in South Africa. And uh, there had been a sex scandal of all a British ampire named Jeremy Thorpe Thorpe affairs, they is, it's commonly referred to. Yeah, and he had committed a quote unquote indiscretion with a

male model named Norman's son, Scott. Uh. And he had been paying hush money to the model, uh Norman Scott, Yeah, from party funds. And and when finally and Scott basically out of him. It wasn't the South African Intelligence Service, but Scott basically was the guy who sold it to the papers and sold his buddy down the river. And of course when that came out to the papers, it was a little damaging to Jeremy Thorpe's career, as you

can imagine. Yeah, now which side was Thorpe on? He was he was in the Liberal Party, Okay, so he was in the same party. It was not labor role. Oh sorry, yeah, people, Yeah, that's close enough. We'll just say they're the same. But I know, I know all you BRIT's, come on, we know everything about Britain. In fact, I have answered that we came from there. We know, we know all about it. Wilson was convinced that the s a I s South African Intelligence Service was behind

the entire thing. On the eppisode of this article that was published last year was that Wilson left before sa I asked could do the same thing to him. Yeah, that applies, of course, said he had at least one skeleton in his closet. Yeah, exactly. But there really actually never was any proof that the South Africans were involved in the Thorpe scandal at all, because, I mean Norman

Scott was really kind of shopping the story around. I mean he was the guy that actually well he kept he kept going back to Thorpe and and Thorpe kept running around and being a digging about it and trying to shut him off. Reportedly, he even tried to get him murder. Yeah, that's well, that's that's what brought it out. They hired he went through somebody else who had hired a hit man. The all the himen ended up doing

was shooting his dog. No, no, and that that's the only casualty in this story was the dog fish called Wanda. Did you ever see that movie? Yeah? Yeah, so Wilson may because this this article again was in the Daily Mail. So I'm not sure. Yeah, uh so I'm not going to file that. Yeah, fun, yeah, fun theory. There's another theory actually that's got a bit more legs to it. It's actually a lot better documented. It looks like here that you've you've you've accidentally typed the same thing twice, Joe,

because the theory name is the same. Another smear campaign. Yeah, pretty close. I said before the Wilson thought m I five was out to get him, And this is true. I mean, you know, the Daily Mail might say that Wilson thought the S A S A I S was out to get him. We don't know if that's true or not. But for sure, Wilson did say My five was out to get him. Well, he knew it, he knew he had been investigated. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

I thought I thought you were saying it was true that the entire organization of m I five was out to get him, not that it was true that Wilson thought. Okay, sorry, I was confused, But yeah, I wasn't the entire organization. It was so certain people within the organization, a certain number of m I five officers didn't particularly like Wilson. That they were suspicious of all of associations with various Eastern European types. Uh, and he was. He he used

to actually do business in Europe. He traveled in Russia a lot in Eastern Europe, and he had a lot of contacts and he had some pretty good friends and stuff who were Eastern European armigrades and Uh. In his book SpyCatcher, which I'll talk about again in a little bit, but Peter Wright published a book called SpyCatcher in nine seven,

which was his memoir of his time in m I five. Yeah, good book, and he talks of about this briefly because he was approached by a number of m I five officers who wanted him to join with them in leaky, selacious materials to the press regarding Wilson, to the Labor Party, to him because they had a dottional election coming up. And this is the one a little bit frustrating thing about SpyCatcher is he he's not great always about putting

the dates in. But when certain events happened, Peter Peter right, I'm guessing this was before the seventy four election, because it was said it was close to his retirement, so that would have been seventy four I think, and certainly m I five was a lot more likely to have

dirt on Wilson than South Africa. I think Peter Wright briefly considered joining the cabal against Wilson, but then he finally decided against it because he was nearing the end of his career and he didn't want to jeopardize his pension.

Smart smart move. And actually he he kind of had a grudge against m I five because he spent the earliest part of his career with the Admiralty and m I five lured him away and he said, well, I'm going to be leaving behind like fifteen years and we keeping the pension if I do that, and they said, not a problem, we'll make a whole Of course, in the end they didn't, so he got a crappy pension, really crappy pension, which is one of the reasons he

wrote SpyCatcher. It was revenge and he wanted the money. But it doesn't appear the M I five conspiracy was all that successful. Obviously, you know, Wilson wasn't kept out of office. Part of the reason probably is they needed right in on the plot because he was pretty high level, and I'm sure he had access to a lot of juicier material than a lot of them did, so they didn't get a lot of traction. But another mystery is

how Wilson found out. And I won't go too deep into that, but my candidates for this, this one is Marrie Oldfield, who was ahead of the m I six. You've heard about my six, right of course. Yeah, he's cousin to the guy near my seven, right. Yeah. I don't even know how many m I s there are. God, it's complicated as F branch D branch, D branch branch. I mean, oh my got, there's all kinds of stuff possible branch. Yeah, Maurice, but Maurice Oldfield man m I five,

by the way, then my six. They didn't collaborate exactly. They were actually kind of not in great terms. There was wasbi yeah, I kind of like that. But apparently

he become aware of it somehow. Peter Wright wrote in his book that he had dinner with Oldfield at some time sometime after the fact, and that Oldfield kept hinting about the whole thing, the little plot against Wilson and stuff, kept dropping little hints about and Finally, uh Right came clean with him, and Oldfield suggested that Right should make

a full report to his superiors. But it appears that Oldfield was already aware of the plot before then, and he had a fairly decent relationship, at least at that time, with Wilson, so he must have been the guy that that read it him out of guessing that he could have found out from other places. But I like the old Field theory. So the question is, of course, has did all this plot in cars Wilson to resign early?

What do you guys think? No, yeah, no, I don't mean yeah, no, I don't ye am I am I five had been investigating Wilson since probably about nineteen, multiple times, so it's yet one more am I five investigation. Oh you're snooping around my my garbage can again, okay, yeah, and see you next week, same time. Boys trash comes at this time. Yeah, I know. So the m I five things like, well, the m I five pops up again in the theory section. Now we were well I

thought we were in theories. Yeah, well yeah later on in the theory Okay, yeah, I don't think so. In the absence of that, it doesn't look to me like they got any dirt on him, at least in terms of scandalous materials that they could use to discredit him or embarrass him and get about of office. So no reason to really, you know, I think Wilson was actually

a fairly upright guy. I don't think. I don't know that there was much in the way of you know, sex scandals and stuff like that on the guy, although there was one sex scandal which is our next theory, which is his longtime secretary Marsha Williams, who eventually became Lady Falkonder, and that was one of the criticians Wilson is that he handed out peerages and things like that to way too many of his buddies. Yeah, he did, including to his secretary. She became Lady Falconder eventually, and

correct me if I'm wrong. Prior to that, the ability to hand out peerages sat with the Is it the senior whip, I don't remember, I don't know is that the correct word. Is it the senior whip? I can't remember the name of that title, but that was the person who could do it, and then he took it from them and took it and kept it for himself as soon as he came into power. Yeah, and so

aren't the whip just the leader of the party. No, he's under the leader of the party, the leader of the party to enforce or help encourage other members of the party to follow the party. Because I watch House of Cards. So I know what whip is because I only know it because I had to read about it today, because I never understood. I was like, there's a dude running around Congress with a whip. Seen this? I think some he is, Oh, where are we are here? The

very beginning of this? Okay? Uh? There? There have long been rumors about an affair between Marsha Williams secretary, and so of course it's thought again somebody got the goods on Harold and he was hired rather than face a scandal, like there's always that though there well, you know, I mean they were out there anyway. I mean, if somebody had actually gotten the goods on him, people would have

been like how hum. I mean, people have been murmuring about this behind his back for years, and so to be honest, you know where I think this came from is the fact that I think Marcia had a lot of sway over him. She did not necessarily because they were doing the deed, but she just had a lot of sway. And it's from some of the things that I've read gave me the impression that she was part of the reason that he was handing out so many peerages.

And then she was also leaning on other people in the party to do things, whether they were what Wilson wanted to have done or not. So it seems like she was just the kind of person who would go out and say, you need to do this, and keep pushing on it because there was somebody was saying, I only did it because of that girl, Marsha. I remember there's a quote of that somewhere. Apparently she was a strong willed lady. That's putting it. That's putting it one way.

Other people have had less flattering things to say. Well for me, I guess you know, when I see assistant, I think a lot of people think like, oh, executive assistant or you know, administrative assistant. That's just like, oh, you just file paperwork and whatever. But but in reality, you know, executive assistant positions and assistant positions like this are typically like that person when they're gone and it's totally possible in my mind that his assistant was in

fact one of his most trusted advisers. Well, in this case, she wasn't just called the secretary. She probably really was probably more like chief of staff. Yeah, I mean she really probably ran a lot of its stuff. Yeah, that could be a pretty powerful position. I can and if you can, you know, foster that trust with someone, you

can become a really close advisor. And so for me, it's not so suspicious that you know, he had a crazy close relationship with her and all that she then exhibited power or not exhibited power, exerted, exerted thank you, I'm always doing the wrong word, but yeah, exerted power that sometimes might have been a little bit outside of the bounds of what she should have been doing. Maybe just in just influence. You have to have power. You

just have to have the influence over the power. So anyway, another theories, Uh, the only thing I can say against that one is entirely possible if you work with somebody for for decades and you know often you know, sooner or later something happens. You know it happens. But uh, on the other hand, Mary was best. Mary Wilson was best buds with her for many many years. Yeah, they that and that is of course Harold Wilson's wife, and they were besties for a long long time before and

after his death. That that has not stopped many people from from committing the adultery still being the best friend and then still being the best friend to the spouse. Well, there's other I mean, there's other situations there, right, I mean, there's certainly the situation of um, you know, giving permission, like saying I know that I'm not doing whatever for you or you know whatever, so that kind of open

relationship hump. But there's also the possibility that maybe Mary Wilson was a lesbian and so was his assistant, and they were more than best friends, sort of like eleanor

Roosevelt situation here like that. You know, I've always hesitant to say that because they never know if you don't know anything, I mean, we don't know anything, right, So, like there are a lot of different options for why they could have been best friends, and that that don't necessarily mean that, you know, she couldn't have also been sleeping with Harold, but maybe, but not likely, especially in

those days. I mean, most people, if you know, you've had sex with my spouse, I'm probably not going to be your buddy, you know, I mean, unless it's an arrangement. Yeah, and I guess that happens. But I don't know how often does that happen any stats. I don't know. I had no idea. Yeah, I'm sure there was a study done on it once with government funds. I'm sure. Yeah, I had no doubt. But well, I'll do some googling on that, but not right now. Let's come to our

little don't don't google forever unclean through that. Okay, I won't do that. There's certain things you really don't want to google. But our last theory, this is a sexy one. I like this one, which is that Wilson actually was a Soviet mole and m I five finally got the goods on him, and rather than had this whole scandal of you know, the Prime Minister and all that, they just presented him with this irrefutable evidence and he quietly resigned and retired, which would have been the way they

rejected his dignity. Yeah, and that would keep the whole thing under the rug. Yeah, that totally would have been a way they would have done it. I mean that

is the way they do it. I mean a lot of those guys were actually caught, and they were more interesting it in number one, avoiding scandal and embarrassment, because every time they found themselves a mole in the rights of m I five and my six, well, if it blew up into a big public thing, then that means they lost the confidence of the American cousins who they were trying to have a cooperative intelligence sharing relationship with.

So they tended to like sort of trying to keep that stuff in the d L and just let somebody quietly retire rather than actually make a make a big stink about it. And this brings us to a guy named Norman John Worthington. Worthington was actually a pseudonym for Harold Wilson. That was the name that was on the file that m I five had on him. That's big fat one. I don't know if they still have it not. Yeah they didn't. Yeah, it was such such a hot

potato they couldn't. Yeah, they couldn't have his name on that file. So I assume it was throughout the file. It would have been one of those things where if he sat down and read the file cover to cover, he would have figured it out. But at any glance, even looking at a couple of pages, you're not going to figure it out. But it was kept undertight apps of course. One of the sources. By the way, as I said I talked about earlier with SpyCatcher by Peter

Wright and which was published in seven um. It was actually banned in the UK right after his publication. Yea, yeah, it totally was. But then well then it was discovered that they couldn't actually ban it in Scotland, so people were just going to Scotland and buying take copies. They buy take copies for them and their friends, and so yeah, eventually they had to just like lighten up and let

let the book be sold everywhere in the UK. But it's a really interesting book back to the early days when he was going out and burgling people's flats and planning bugs and stuff like that, and so it's kind of a kind of a cool book. And the way they used to do the little cloaker dagger thing way back in the fifties and the sixties a lot different from today, you know. Yeah, but I can recommend that

one um, but one suspicious connection. Of course, I don't know if I mentioned Joseph Kagan, but this was somebody that wait, wait, just just to back up here, so you you you've explained to us that he had a fake name on his m I five file. We've just talked about spy catcher. But I'm sort of jumping right. Yeah, but but nothing here is saying why they say he's

a mole. Uh yeah. The reason that Worthyton A k A. Wilson had been in a suspicion is due to his travels, as I think I said earlier, to places like Russia and Eastern Europe, and he had a lot of friends and connections with Eastern block type people. Um, and a lot of these friends and contacts had already come to the attention to m I five already, just separately and independently.

So it's kind of inevitable that Wilson was going to come into scrutiny to so I think it's it's only fair that we point out that between forty seven and fifty one he was the President of the Board of Trade, so part of his job was to go around and meet people of industry and other countries for reasons of trade. Absolutely and so it's not necessarily illegitimate. It's not as if he was just like I'm gonna take a vacation to the Baltics. Yeah, but the of course KGB, one

of their specialties is in trapping and blackmailing people. So you know, we can assume that maybe not, we can assume that Wilson was careful about that kind of thing. Well, you gotta hope, so yeah, yeah, yes, uh like that. One particularly suspicious guy was Joseph Kagan. He was a Lithuitian emigree and a successful businessman, but a kg B agent named olegle Allen. He worked in Place in Britain

for a while before he defected. And that's an interesting story is his defection is by catcher because they were running in Place and in Britain and the pressure was getting to him. He was drinking a lot and this is not right. But le Allen one night he got busted for drunk driving by London police and he was hauled down to the jail. So Peter right gets a call at like three in the morning saying, hey, get you your office and get that special kid out of your safe and uh and so he had to go

down to his office and get this kid. What the kid was was it was his collection of every known antidote for anti every KGB poison there was. He had to go out of the jail with this just in case they all know this had been poisoned, because they they were figuring he was gonna get killed in jail by the KGB because it makes him a target because now he's he can't get away. Yeah and so, yeah, so and and and so. Anyway, at that point, there

was no choice. He had a defect. But yeah, I'm one of those really interesting little stories that he tells while he was in place. He's totally my five about a friend of his name. I don't know the first name, but his last name was on veg Aucus. That sound about right, Yeah, okay, veg Aucus Russian Navigascus who was KGB. Also, he was working at the Sylvia Trade delegation in London, and according to vick, Augus told Leland that he was

in contact with Joseph Kagan, Wilson's buddy. And so it's wait, what's what's the connection between I'm not catching the connection between Kagan and Wilson here. They were, they were friends and associates. They you know they hung out just through common people or did they have a working relationship, Like I don't understand how they knew each other. Yeah, they seemed to be that kind of like I'm not sure if they were like really total socializing together best buds.

It was one of a business relationship. I know that Kagan, for example, did of certain favors like when he was campaigning, he loaned him an airplane and actually funded his book at office and things like that. That that fleshes out what what this quote unquote relationship is. Yeah, they apparently were close in one way or nother even if they were, even if they weren't soul mates. Apparently Kagan felt it

was important to like cultivate this friendship. Yeah, and for his part, Wilson did a little product placement for him. He had a raincoat factory in Leeds, Kagan did, and so Wilson was always wearing his raincoats. So it's the product placement. Basically, was it a Macintosh that wasn't a

mac Okay? I really wish it had been. Okay, sorry, Yeah, So so these guys, so there's this this whole triad of of Soviets and know each other that then no Wilson, Okay, yeah, so that's there's And so obviously having even this rumor, m I five took a big interest in finding out what the relationship between Kagan and Vygaucus was and weren't able to come up as much. Actually they were. They

were looking for some sort of coret communications. But according to Kagan, he was interrogated evntionally the East far that he only occasionally met by Gaucus for chess games, although who knows now they were talking in coded coded language and passing you know, like like secret messages under the table maybe, but you know, it was totally innocent. That could have been totally innocent. Absolutely. Uh. It's one of those things though, I mean, once the suspicion is out there,

I mean it's kind of hard to dispel. Yeah. In in ninety four it was this. This is after Wilson became Prime Minister. James j Angleton you remember him, Yeah, and counterintelligence for the CIA came to London to visit M BY five and uh, I don't know if you remember a Yari Endnssenko episode long long ago. I had James j Angleton. Yeah, okay, same guy. Every according to Angleton, everybody was working with the Reds. Yeah, yeah, he was.

He was a little paranoid, Yeah, definitely. He definitely gave a yur Nssenko a hard time, although there's some other defectors he seemed to take more seriously. Angleton told him I five that he had a good authority from an unnamed source that Wilson was actually a Soviet agent, and he offered to provide detailed information if m I F I've promised to keep all evidence strictly confidential, as in not share it with the government. It just it stays strictly with the n M I five. Such a weird,

weird thing to put down as a requirement. Well, yeah, I can kind of see it. I mean, and he probably shouldn't give it some reasons like, well, I don't want you sharing with ex politicians because I think there's a mole somewhere in there in the British government and something like that, and maybe that was it. I don't know.

Generally speaking, you don't if your source is already defected, then you don't need to worry so much about protecting yoursel ors, right, So maybe that says he had at an agent place, or maybe that was him just being a drama queen. But he could He was capable of doing that, There's no doubt about that. Um So this is a conundrum of course, because they wanted what he had. But at the same time, the purpose of what they did is to provide intelligence to the politicians who had

our governments. Right, otherwise enough, it's just for their consumption. Well what so, anyway, they turned the deal down, or at least they said they did. There's a general theory out there that these allegations came from the Soviet the vector named anatotly Gleetzen But actually nobody actually knows really where they came from. You know, did did Angleton make it up? Probably not, I mean, did you get it from Gleetzon or god knows wherever? Who knows? It was

a long time ago. Probably everybody had knowledge of it is probably dead. It could be. It could be he put two and three together and came up with four different bits of information and he puts them together in one way and decides it points at certain person. Yeah, I mean that happens all the time in spike craft, especially when you just ignore a lot of stuff. Yeah, that happens that like extra one number from two plus three.

It works really well in my checking account. Yeah, there's that thing you got to be very very careful about to fall prey to that, that thing that you want to shoehorn everything into the proper theory. You know, you gotta not fall prey to that. We, of course, a thinking side was never do that. No, never at all, not once, never have Yeah, but it's an intriguing question for me is whether I'm if I've really actually turned down that deal, because actually, wow, that would be a

hard deal to shurn down. I want to know what he had to say. Yeah, but the problem is that it's not actionable. Well it's not, but it can be. Um, it's actuable sense. I mean, if you want to, like, you know, like put out a hit on the guy or something like that, you can always do that. But I mean, so it's actuable in that sense. Sorry, nobody

can see me. I'm rolling my eyes that the putting up the hit bart I mean, yeah, okay, no, actually what Okay, So we'll never know how, but yeah, back to Hugh Gates skill though, remember him, the guy who died very great volunteered to die. You have to make room for Harold Wilson. Yeah, so he Uh, if you read the Wicked page about him, they say the only source of the assassination room was the same Auditlely Glitsen that we were just talking about, And that's actually not true.

The actual rich origin of the story was Gateskill's doctor who contacted m I five after he died, and he said he was disturbed by the manner of his death because lupus, that particular part kind of lupas is so rare and temperate climate said he felt there was absolutely no way that that Gatesville could have gotten it. So I'm gonna ask you a question. I did. I did reading on lupus in general, but I didn't I didn't catch this particular variant until about five minutes after I

got here. So I'm going to ask you, did you ever read to find out if indeed that is true, that it is only occurs in places that have a different climate than Yeah, now that is that is true. I mean, although it doesn't that mean you looked at this particular kind of loopus restrain of lupus that he had. Yeah, it's it's it's rare. I mean, it's extremely rare. I mean, I think even in equatorial climates it's kind of rare.

But in a climate like ours, we have a climate very similarly written right here temperature, Yeah, it's just kind of rare. So yeah, well, I mean, I guess it's worth mentioning though, Like lupus is not like you can't catch it, well, you can't be given it. Well, this is a different breed of lupus apparently, but it's like, but you still it's not as though somebody could have

just injected him with the lupus virus. Well yeah, now, but actually somebody could have injected him with something, right, But I think like it's it's important to say that, like if realistically he did actually die of lupus, right, which I don't think his doctor is saying. No, his doctor is saying it's weird that he got this kind of lupus, but he's not saying he didn't have it. No,

he had it. He had it, definitely had it. But it's also important to note that like you couldn't just somebody couldn't have just injected him with it or like given it to him, that it had to have developed in his own body. Yeah, it's definite issue exactly. It's not something that he could have been infected with. Well, it turns out that the Soviets did experiments on inducing this particular kind of lupus in lab rats. How did that go for them? It actually worked, Yeah, using a

certain It didn't go so well for the rats. Yeah, now the poor rats. Sorry about that guy. Interesting, So it can be induced this, yeah, apparently, rats. Yeah, what a totally Glets had said, And and of course he was supposedly was the sole source of this room, but not really according to Peter Right. Uh, this is the author of spy Catcher. Peter Right, the author SpyCatcher. You said that that Glets and told him my five and let's remember he had no idea about the doctor's suspicions.

He said that during his last few years with the KGB, he had had contact with Department thirteen, which is known as the Department of Wet Affairs, and this is the department responsible for planning assassinations. And according to the Soviet department, Yeah, of course, of course, yeah, I said, just before he left KGB, he heard that they were planning a high level political assassination in Europe in order to quote to get their man into place unquote, which could have been anybody,

could have been. He didn't know. He didn't actually say which country. He didn't know which country was planned for. So that's the information again. So they put those two things together. Okay, So he died to this really strange and rare disease, and and the KGB was planning a hit on some major guy in Europe. So right, Peter Wright contracted, of course, every buddy James J. Angleton, and

asked him for information. Angleton dug up a Soviet scientific research paper and which it turns out they had perfected a procedure to induce lupus and lab rats like at least according to the Soviet paper, according to that paper. Yeah, and I want to note it's according to that paper. Yeah, according to the paper. I'm assuming that it was true. I'm assuming this. I'm I'm making that that because it is a is a Soviet paper that the Western world

has gotten their hands on. And we have talked many times about the practice of disinformation, of sending things out there that are totally bogus to mess with your enemy, that's always a possibility. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole that's that whole worlderness and mirrors thing, you know. I mean, it's just you never know up from down or right from wrong or anything. I mean, it's kind of crazy, and you can see why I drive so many people

to drink. But it's entirely possible, I mean, right, consultant with one of their MPI scidists who said it wasn't who said it was, it did appear to be possible, and he said that in the seven years since that paper been written, at the time they spoke, it's possible they had perfected the process to the point where they

could with a single dose or injection induced lupus and something. Yeah, but it does appear that then the Soviets, if they did perfect this assassination tool, does appear they never used it again because the m I five was on the lookout for that, and so that would argue against a

Soviet assassination and Lupa's inducing assassination tool. But at the same time, of course, at the time Peter Wright and some other people in m I five suspected that there was actually a highly placed mole and m I five which would have met the Soviets have been tipped, and so they knew not to use that again, at least nowhere near Europe other than Wilson. Yeah, like a Soviet mole old than Wilson high up in Oh yeah, the the m I five mole. Yeah that's outside, that's outside

of parliament. Yeah, that's then by five. Yeah, Soviets were just running the UK government at that time, is what that allegation be lease as right, I mean they had they had Wilson who was the Prime Minister, and they had like a high level in the m I five. So yeah. Yeah, although the allegations against Wilson, I gotta say, are pretty sketchy compared to uh, the allegations against then we'll talk more of someday about the mole in m I five. Yeah, that's an interesting story and of itself,

but I don't want to talk about that now. Of course, it could have been that they had no intention of It wasn't about getting Wilson into place. They just wanted to get rid of you gate Skill to begin with, because he was kind of an outlier for the Labor Party. He was a much more conservative, almost Reaganesque kind of guy. I didn't believe in nationalization, which made it put him at odds with labor unions and such. Maybe the labor unions wanted to get rid of maybe they did it. Yeah,

I don't know. Labor unions tend to be better at organizing strikes and stuff like that than actually coming up with ways of inducing lupus. But well, yeah, you can see what it might have thought that gate Skill was not the ideal guy to have at the head of the Labor Party if they were in the next election. So maybe it was that it wasn't so much for Wilson. It's just getting rid of gate skull, alright. So that's about it for the evidence against Wilson. Um. So does

that put him in the clear? I mean, I agree, it's not super solid, and you'll hear it stated in many places at m I five investigated Wilson and totally cleared him. That's not true. Well, but like like I said before, they had been investigating him for twenty or thirty years. Multiple times they would open a new file

on him and investigat him for whatever reason. So when when the claim is said that he was found to be clear, it could be for in the first time and the second time, but maybe not the third time. When you read that I think that that might be part of why people say he was clear or they cleared him every time, but they kept reopening it for whatever reason, and the last one just never was closed. Yeah, but it's in a lot of these cases, it's it's

really rare that they, you know, like investigate somebody. I shouldn't say it's really rare, but it's very rare that they totally clear somebody. Yeah, I mean, it's because it's really are too, especially when there's this many little fragments of evidence against him. I mean, obviously you know, it's not overwhelming by any means, but you can't prove a

negative either. I'd have to say the case it's far from proven, very very likely he was not a mole based on what I've seen, so I should give him the benefit of the doubts. So, in other words, that theory, the theory that he was forced to resign by m I five probably probably bogus. But at the same time, I don't know what I don't know. I mean, maybe they maybe the m I five did set him down and show him the dossier and explain the facts of life.

Maybe they did give him a choice between leaving quietly or being forced out of office in disgrace. So my pros in this series it's it's pretty juicy. I like it. So I can't think of any cons? Can you against this theory? Yeah? Not other than the ones that I've said multiple times. I was gonna say, you just listed a bunch of cons and then said here's your one pro pro it's juicy. Yeah, you're editing like the Daily Mail. Now, yeah, I think yeah, unless less always possible. I mean I

kind of doubted. I think most likely it was just the pressure that got to him and he just got sick of the whole thing, and that's why he resigned. I don't think m I five forced him out. I mean, it doesn't appear to me. Again, they might ask, they might have some juicy stuff on him that I'm not aware of. Two Maybe they did, and that's certainly what they would have done. They would have they would have

totally avoided a scandal for sure. And if they have caught him inflagrante, you know, passing information to the Soviets, they totally would have kept it quiet. But that's about that. But there's nothing, there's absolutely nothing to prove that. So I think we gotta go with the obvious, which is

that he just got sick of being prime minister. Yeah, I'm gonna stick with my original theory, Yeah, which is that he just he just he just you know, got tired and said, I don't really want to do this again. This kind of sucked, not really interested in it, I think. So, you know, there's always that the statement of his wife that they didn't move in a tin down because they

knew they weren't going to be there very long. It sounds to me like he maybe made her a promise that hey, just a couple more years and I'm out, okay please. Yeah, for the fact that he barely won to see eat may have been an indication to him that things could very easily turn again. Yeah, totally. I guess for me, I just have that continuing doubt of like, why would you not why why would it be then? Why would you not leave before then? But you know,

I don't know. Maybe he thought he was prime minister for six years things had gone away, he would kind of be able to take a graceful exit of just he would take a step down and then continue to take steps down into retirement, and then suddenly he found himself as Prime minister. Okay, I guess I'm doing this again for a little bit. But the but but again, you know, I just I just don't totally understand why

you wouldn't just say you were stepping down for personal reasons. Yeah, I mean he should probably maybe should given a reason, but maybe even maybe it was a little unheard of at that time to have to give a reason. It's only because of all the other stuff that we consider. It's so very strange. That's that's a good point. Um. Well, I think typically even then you probably were expected to give a hint of a reason. But you know, it might have been that he just decided to pull in

Andy Kaufman and little mystery for us. All. That's that's what I plan to do. I'm gonna I'm gonna hold Wilson's last joke pretty much. So that's it. I hope you found this episode illuminating and edifying. Uh, as did all of us. I'm sure, uh you know, and I won't. I promise I'm not gonna do any cold War Sylvie Desponatge episodes for a while. Appreciate it. I do have one of the cooker for you. But that's okay, I can.

I can hold off on it for a while. Uh so, uh, you guys have any other theories before I do all the housework? All right? Uh? Well, good news. We now have a website. Our website is called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com and where you can of course, like you know, find our stuff, download it or list. Can you download from there or just yeah I thought you could? Okay download and yeah, you can also download the list at iTunes of course if you go to iTunes subscribe please

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So you probably don't want to be pledging like fifty bucks or a hundred bucks, or maybe you do if you're sticking rich feel free. Uh yeah, but just be aware that's gonna be every week. So yeah, no a hundred dollar donations and risk unless you can really afford it, and of course it's all optional, but we do appreciate it. That's it for this week, I suppose. So, Dospedonia, you did that one last time. Good point. You can't do that to two in a row. Okay, Lay, that doesn't

even make any sense, doesn't that does any of this? Uh? Good point. Cheers guys,