Thinking Sideways: Harassing of Bill and Dorothy Wacker

have to be money. You can always donate time forever, get it, forever, for for Oh, I get it Thinking sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi. There, Welcome to another episode of Thinking So Sadways, the hard hitting podcast. Yeah I can't even make it all the way through that we do something, I guess. I'm Joe Uh. This week joined as always by Steve and Yeah, here we go and I go

tackle another cool mystery. UM. This week we are going to talk about a strange series of instance that happened back in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties and a little town in Ohio Uh. The incident centered around an older couple named Bill and Dorothy Whacker, who lived in a town called Massillon, Ohio, which is about fifty miles south of Cleveland. That's about eighty kilometers and about three million hands and about twenty seven stone. Yeah, right in there. Yeah,

I got them all. And before we go any further, I want to give a shout out to Lauren who suggested this mystery. Thanks Lauren. And also, and there might be a few other people too, but somehow I didn't see the names in the list, so sorry about that, but you're getting a sort of a silent shout out from us. Let's back to our mystery here, let's go back.

So Bill and Dorothy Whacker fairly normal people. They seemed like to me, they're kind of getting getting on in years in the mid eighties, they were in their fifties, at the sixties, something like that, I don't know. But then they're in nineteen eighty four. One day they came home and they found their house had been broken into and ransacked. Apparently didn't report to the police because they didn't see that anything had been stolen, and so that

was a kind of that. But then it happened again later in the year, and they still didn't report it to the police. But then when it happened the third time in January five, they finally did report it to the county sheriff. Wasn't it wasn't that the one that Dorothy was actually injured in though, No, actually that was no, No, that was not that was one. They were both out of the house at that time. I guess I always thought that that was and that's why they had finally

reported it, But that was the catalyst. But I think just had enough. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Damn it the third time. Yeah, you know, I usually fully one shame on me, Yeah, pull me, can't get pulled again. Yeah, there you go. That's how that works. I'm pretty sure as far as another sheriff was not able to do much other than asking the neighbors if they had seen anything. And I know I got broken into once years ago and the cops came over, and well, they weren't able

to do much either. Stuff kind of step. Yeah. Seriously, I do have one hint for you. If somebody burgles your place, just say yeah, they still want of my guns. That would get their attention. They might just go find those people. Yeah, do you probably have to provide enough serial numbers and types and stuff like that. Yeah, there's that. And if they find out you lied, well they get kind of pussy about that. I had a two can to seventeen. It was awesome. I lost watches. Yeah, where

are we at here? Though? But then what really what happened? Where it kind of serious? Was about six months later in July, Dorothy was home alone one afternoon to knock on her door, and some guy wanted to use her phone because he said his card had broken down, And so Dorothy led him in and showed him where the phone was, and then left the room and went off to putter around in the kitchen or something. She said she didn't want to feel she didn't want him to

feel as though she was eavesdropping. Yeah, she said she wasn't want to listen in on conversations, and so she thought she'd just let him have his little private time. Yeah, it was just very nice of her. I gotta tell you I don't I don't allow strangers to be unobserved in my home. I had a stranger in my house this morning, and that lady I was within five or eight feet of her the whole time. I invited her to the house to take a look at it. Uh huh,

A likely story. No, sorry, I think I mean the impression I have is that they lived in a relatively safe neighborhood. They came from a much safer time, more trusting generation, more trusting generation, and so you know, she didn't want it. She doesn't want to assume the worst of people, you know, she wants to assume you can take people at face value. This young man said his car broke down. She said, all right, you know, use our phone, there's no harm here. He seemed trustworthy, so

she let him in. And you know, this would have got a whole lot better for Dorothy if she had been listening to podcast, because she wouldn't have trusted anybody, right, damn it. Yeah, this wasn't exactly an innocent time. It was five crime. We've been through the sixties, but she was in her sixties seventies, right, so she was from an arab a time gone by, and maybe I don't know. And of course, oh yeah, one other anomalous thing is apparently Dorothy didn't see his car parked out front, which

was a little weird because it's a straightish road. It's a yeah, it's it's a straightish road. And uh so you know that there is that question, but we'll talk about that a little bit later. And anyway, it seemed like apparently the phone calls ordered over and Dorothy was

under the oppression. The guy had left the house, but apparently he was still in the house, and he snuck up behind her and hit her over the head, and Dorothy of course went out like a light bulb, and she when she woke up, she had been tied up and gagged and left on her kitchen floor. Alright, So for people who are listening, i'bout a bunch of you

know this case because it was on Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah, and her being tied up on the floor is one of the most awkwardly funny scenes that I have ever seen. I honestly was just thinking about how incredible it was, like literally just at this moment, thinking about how incredible it was for somebody who has gone through that traumatic experience him that to let them wasn't it wasn't her.

It was an actress. I thought it was her, think it was it was actors and actresses portraying them in the re enactment the well, the actor looked a lot like her, but it was hilarious to see the way they hit that she was supposedly tied scene did look a lot like her, except it was pretty awkward. I'll be honest. I was eating dinner while I was watching I really want than actually paying that much attention. I

just saw like, oh, woman tied up. It must be the woman, because they always used the same people unless they're traumatic experiences. All right, disregard the awe that I was in earlier. Okay, okay, Yeah, so it was an actress. We've established that. So she's a gagg on the kitchen floor. But luckily for her, it was July, so her windows were open and she was apparently, through her gag, able to make enough noise to attract the attention of her neighbors,

who called the police. And hopefully that was after they had untied to say, oh, sorry, Dorothy, don't want to disturb the crime scene. I would hope not said to be here in half an hour. Yeah, but when the police showed up, and of course eventually Bill comes home. Also, Dorothy was not seriously injured. Apparently maybe a lump in the head. That's about it. But they discovered some things have been stolen, including a twenty two caliber revolver, an

antique watch, a movie camera, and a scanner radio. Remember those scanner radios. Oh yeah, yeah, I know people who still have those. Yeah. It movie camera the same as a video camera. No, well, I mean I assume from this area they're talking it might have been a video camera. More likely it was like an old super eight K. It was. It was an old movie camera, but you know, the generation of cameras win from old movie cameras to VHS. With the VHS with probably the it could have been. Yeah,

I don't know what kind it was. I don't know what exactly. Something It was something around around those those huge VHS ones, because I remember my brother and his wife had one of those things, and those were enormous. My uncle had one, and I actually the only memories I have of him are like of him videotaping everything that was happening at family unions. He was never like participating. It was very weird. We had one. My mom loved

it so much. It was so big that she had to carry it around in my little red wagon because it was so bulky to carry the recording unit and the camera, so she would drag the wagon around and then film things. Can I ride in the wagon? No, the cameras in it? Oh man, I cannot wait to be just like your mom. Okay, sorry, So okay, So they stole that and they still the camera again. I

don't know how. The Super eight cameras are not that huge. Obviously, if it was one of those suitcase has once and you know VHS ones and I don't know what else did you take? That was about it. You might have taken all their drugs, only real legal drugs, but they didn't report that, and we'll just have to assume they didn't have any right. They probably didn't. They might as in prescription drugs. And that was about Yeah, in the

dining room to their house. So the burglar had used to crayon to write a message on the wall which said cheaper, but we'll do not unusual, not but not classy. It's like, you know, that's bad enough. It's like getting insult to injury. You know, he's steal their crapping and say, oh, by the way, you've got cheap, crappy stuff, you know. Okay, that's what that meant, Okay, yeah, I just had a

hard time. It was there. You may not know the answer to this, but was the cran one that he had found in the house, Well, nobody knows, you know. That's one of the things I'm kind of curious about, is that I don't know that information. I wondered about that myself, if he had brought it or just lay it appears, and some things that happened later on that a crayon plays a major role in this story. Did look like I'm presuming that this person had their own

crayons color box? Probably No, probably not. They probably had just the eight box. That's what made them so mad. That was it. I mean, that was you know when I was a little kid, that's all My parents would let me have it, because, yeah, I didn't eat him, I did other stuff with him. But yeah, the police, of course did did stop by. They took a report, and it even sat down with Dorothy and made a composite drawing up her attacker, which you can find on the World Wide Web if you look. You guys have

seen it. I'm sure I'm assuming. Uh looks like a lot of mid eighties college dudes, kind of nondescript. It's extremely nondescript, blonde, blue eyes, mid twenties and just really nondescript. Nobody in town recognized his face. So that was that for that little incident. But then about four months later, Bill on the plastic shopping bag on their porch, and when he opened it turned out not to contain the usual a half pound of dog poo. Instead, it had

his stolen twenty two revolver. And okay, I'm joking about the dog poo, but it did have the twenty two revolver in it, and which was kind of I guess nice that somebody gave the gun back. But then over the next several months, all the other stolen stuff also turned up. And yeah, I know, so I don't know if it turned up on the porch or just exactly where I was going to ask you, because I've never

seen where the stuff appeared. You know, if it appeared, well, the guns the only one, but you know, if the watch appeared in the house, then something different. Maybe somebody just misplaced. That's entirely possible. Uh, yeah, I would assume they were all. The inference there is that they were all on the porch, probably just you know, left in bags in the porch. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'm not entirely sure, but let's assume that for the sake of fun. But we're still in the year, and in this year, the

Whackers also began to get phone calls. Um some of them were just as sound as somebody breathing kind of heavy. Yeah this one, Oh yeah, Devin, wake up later. Yeah, come on, this is an exciting mystery. Yeah. Well, some of the other phone calls, though, we're threatening, you know, actual, Although I don't have any quotes as to exactly what the words of these threatening calls, I was going to say,

I've never seen any kind of transcription of them. Now, the whackers actually didn't do a great job of documenting every all these various incidents. You know, it would have been nice that they had, but they didn't. They because of the phone calls. They changed their phone number, and then the guy apparently found their phone. Their new phone numbers started calling again, changed the phone number again, and the guy started calling them again. I have a question,

were their number unlisted? Good question? I mean, this is the time where I would be pretty easy to just I mean, it's not as though Whacker is such a common name that that you would be able to, you know. I mean, it would be pretty easy to open up the phone book for that given town and say, all right, Dorothy and Bill Whacker, there's their phone number. Oh good,

I found it again. I mean, yeah, I'm just kind of assuming that somebody at the phone company when they changed it, and they said, well, here's why they did. The phone company said, oh, you're probably gonna want it unlisted. Then yeah, I would assume that too. But I would also assume that they would have kept some sort of record or transcript of the calls that they were getting and the content of them. Well, that's true. That's a

good point. You at least say you know the time of the date, you know, because like, for example, you know, later on, if you have a suspect, you know, and you can the call originated in this town and you can prove that he was in this town on that date. But if you don't know that kind of stuff, well, yeah, you're kind of have a lot of aren't you proven that so and so did it? So, yeah, they should have done a better job of that. Well, but hey,

they were old, right, Blame it on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ages, Yeah, I totally am uh. At some point though in this this is long about the same time, a little after somebody started pounding, maybe the eighty six or someone just started having somebody started pounding on the side of their house. It was mainly on the west side. If you look at the Google area they are I will tell you

what road. They were on Wooster Street, northwest in Massillon, Ohio, and they were north of the road, house facing the road, and their driveway was on the east side of the house, the drive and so that's where the pounding was coming from, which makes sense because on the west side there was another neighbor right there close by. The neighbors on both

sides happen to be closer than the other. Yeah, the other one was quite a bit further away, a lot further away, and so that would make sense that he was he was on the driveway side of the house, right. But and all this thumping activity motivated able to install a security line in the front of their house. But all that n him was a taunting note from our perpetrator, who wrote a note saying, quote, your lights are a

laugh unquote and uh. And also, by the way, I'm tired of calling this guy per So I'm gonna call him Matt Damon. We can serve you've done Matt Damon before, done that Damon before. Yeah, let's call this one Justin Justin. Okay, Justin, that sounds good. Okay. This note was the first note from Justin. This turns out Justin's got really lousy handwriting. The police had a theory about that. They thought that

Justin was just writing with his weak hand. In other words, if he was right and he was writing these with his left hand handwriting, and I bet there's no way. I don't know this, I'm just totally spitballing, but I would assume that it would be really hard to analyze someone's non dominant hand handwriting because there's no well in cran But even like there's no I don't know that

you would even be able to. I don't think I form letters the same way like when I write with my left hand and A and then the next A is probably totally different because I am so right dominated that, you know. I think it's probably pretty clever. Actually it's not. It's not a trick that's enter heard of either. Yeah, but in this case, yeah, we're talking left hand. But also our perp justin. Yeah. It was also careful not to leave the fingerprints on the notes, so he knew

what he was doing. But the banging on the side of the house continued. More notes arrived, and one note read quote you scum, I'll get even no junk poor and I I put a nice little pause in there. Actually there was that was bad, bad punctuation in this note, you scumb I'll get you even. Yeah, here's here's how I should have read you scumb I'll get you, I'll get even no junk. But here's how it actually read.

You scumb I'll get even no junk because no punctuation. Yeah, I'm just I'm interested in the word choice that's happening here too. You know, like your lights are a laugh that sounds like a film noir kind of you know term and you scum, I'll get you. They all. It all kind of sounds like Perry Mason, sort of like hearken of a detective novel. I've doesn't it a little bit like it's weird? Yeah, you're right, it sounds like something out of like a like a Humphrey Bogard detective movie. Yeah, scump,

look good even no junk. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Oh, back to our story. This stuff went on for a long time, but actually not. There were long periods of time where a lot of time would go by, months and months and months would go by with absolutely no incidents. Wasn't there a year that was yeah? I think so, yeah, maybe more. But then sooner or later Justin would come back and go back to his his evil deeds. Um. But things came to a head kind of in October,

like late October, Dorothy was attacked again by Justin. Damn you Justin, who's not up behind her or somebody's stuck up behind her and hit her on the head again. Now this time your injuries were more serious than the previous knock on the head. So she had scalp lacerations that I think had to be stitched. And I read somewhere on the webs that she got a fractured skull, But I don't think that this is true. I think she just got some lacerations that was about it. I

don't know, It's it's hard to say. I mean, she was an old woman at this point, and your skull is kind of eggshell thin in spots, so it's possible maybe she got Yeah, so if she had to wear a cast on her skull for a while, Yeah, I know. Yeah, my grandma years back took a fall and she had to be held and she had bleeding, you know, blood on the brain, had to be held, and it wasn't I mean, it was pretty bad fault. That was pretty

bad fault. But I would imagine that it would be similar to getting whacked on the head with a hard object, So I would presume that it was serious. Honestly, anybody getting hit on the head with something hard, like unless you're a child, because children are just made of like bullet. Yeah, they're they're they're totally okay with this kind of stuff. Yeah,

they're fine, So it's okay to hear your kids just kidding. Well, anyway, the police did take this attack a little more seriously because there was blood, and they canvassed the neighborhood asking if anybody seemed justin or anything odd for that matter, and nobody has seen or heard anything. Police also at this point asked Dorothy if she thought it was possible that maybe Bill was he was the perpetrator of these incidents, and she said no, no, of course, not, no, he said, no,

are you kidding now, Bill? But would never do this? She Kiana reaves it. No, Oh my gosh, that is crazy. No, that's good, good acting, good impression. So maybe because of this violent incident in November that would have been a few weeks after Dorothy was attacked, Bill and two of his son laws staked out the house one night. I gotta tell you that I read about this and then I watched the re enactment, and this just sounds like

the clugiest, silliest thing ever. But also the other reason that it's like crazy that they would do this, right is they would they did it for such a short amount of time, which Joell talked about in a second, But also there were years that went by between incidents, right, so why would you say, oh, this is the night

we're a steak out. Actually I actually thought about that they may have done it several times and didn't say anything to the cast or the crew that of unsolved mysteries, because only this one time did it actually have anything happen. But that that that maybe as possible. But still, you know, they could have been in for a long long wait. We're talking a long long sight. So tell folks, what, what's what's going on here? Yeah, so they're, uh, they're

staking a place out. So they apparently got a trailer that they parked in the driveway. Uh not suspicious, Yeah, yeah, exactly. What this so such a plan? Yeah exactly. I'm calling it a lot of things. Maybe they were a little more subtle about it. I mean, maybe maybe Bill bought this trailer and thought, I'm gonna do some steakouts. I'm gonna buy the trailer now in the summer. Just put it there. I won't even try to do it. I'll just get the guy used to seeing that trailer there.

Maybe that's what he did. I don't know. I kind of doubt it. But but Bill hid inside that trailer in the driveway, and then his son in laws, the names for Dan and Clay, set in a van across the street, and Uh, as you I'm sure you guys are with the street view, there's no shoulders or sidewalks or any parking on this road. Had to be in somebody's driveway, and there's only really one driveway that's right across the street from the house. Their neighbors right across

the way, so they had to be in that driveway. Well, they could have been parked in the middle. I mean, I would not put it past this family. Not to disparage the family, but I would not put it past this family to be so conspicuous as to just park adan car as far off the road as they could get. I mean, I know there was like nothing there, right, but it wouldn't surprise me if they had just parked the car kind of in the middle of the road and there nobody'll see me, now nobody. Yeah, we'll pay

a little camouflage on our van. But yeah, if you were the perpetrator justin, you'd probably be thinking, Wow, what's what the trailer in the van? Yeah? Yeah. Their stick up began about six thirty pm, went on for about four hours, and at which time they decided to call it a night. And Dorothy was in the house. Not by yourself. Oh that's right, I forgot about that. Yeah, And Dorothy was in the house with her daughter, Kathyrn

Bill's daughter Cathy. Uh. And so when they started to call it a night about ten thirty pm, right about then, persons stake out. I'm sorry, I love it. They're they're like they saw all the all the nomenclature from all the police procedural shows that they've watched and stuff like that. And then and for yeah radio they had radio. Sorry to question that. Let me just ask a question real quick here, Um did that time correspond with the majority

of the incident? Says we're I mean, we're most of the bangings happening in this kind of six to ten hour Is that why they picked that or were they just you know, being kind of lazy. I was never I never found out exactly what time of the night. It appears that it seems like they were intended to be awake when the banking is happening, and it appears that usually happen at night, after dark, which makes a lot of sense, but we're usually awake, so probably something

like that. They were kind of older, so they probably didn't stay up to the you know old Yeah, and so because I know that, yeah, I know that at least a lot of them happened when they were awake, because Bill would at a certain point would jump up and grab his kun and go outside and try to see that, you know, the gun that had been stolen, which she got back, which, by the way, I help you testified that thing to make sure it actually worked

after he got it back, give it back. Yeah, well, yeah, you file the s, you file the you know, the firing pin down and you know, and then hey, here it is you know. Yeah, shoot me, sorry, I just wanted to ask that clarifying question to kind of give a little context. So at ten thirty, when they finally called it a night, something happened, Yes, something happened. Suddenly

Dorothy and Cathy inside the house. Here there's stumping noise on the front of the house, and then went outside, and of course Bill comes over from the trailer and stuff. And it turns out there was a note from Justin on the porch which said vote get the message unquote. Sounds a little threatening, pretty little bit, but also what like,

there's not really been a clear message here. What's the message? Yeah, well, and who's who's getting Is it Bill and Dorothy are supposed to get the message or is it Justin gets the message? But I think I think what he was saying, I mean, I I read this is you should get the message Bill and Dorothy. But the message, well, the message must have been your haunted there's ghosts. Maybe I'll stopped trying to catch me, yeah. Or maybe the message was,

you know, you should check these walls. They might have termites in him. I don't know. I really don't know what the message was. He might have been trying to drive them out of the house. I don't know, but anyway, it was it was quite a clever move when you got the houses under surveillance from three different people. They're you know, watching the front porch and you somehomes to sneak a note onto the porch, you know, and thumping the wall and everything like that, so you gotta get

that to justin. Good, good move, justin. But actually it's not a total ninja movie. You could have pulled it off if you approached from the back of the house on the north side and you came south along the west side of the house, or on the other side of the driveway. We're building the trailer can't see you. It turns out if you look on street view from the driveway of the house across the way where the van was. Between that west side of the house and

the van, there was a tree and a bush. We don't know if that tree was there at that time, though the tree is large enough I would expect it was or another tree like it. But yeah, you're right, it's possibly years ago. Yeah, it's possible that it wasn't. But anyway, but you know, I'm thinking that probably there was something there, some sort of shrubley, but you're right. And also it was dark. I'm assuming these guys didn't

have night vision equipment. Yeah, and so yeah, yeah, so somebody could have just sort of slid down the side of the house and just just you know, reached around through the rail. He's put the note on the porch, you know, and then slid on, slid on out of there, and you know, not not that hard to do really, But still I'm impressed that he saw this surveillance and you know, one around it. Good for him. I guess I shouldn't be taking this side, should I? Yeah? Yeah,

the evils com But I don't know what happened. Maybe the the increase the police interests and maybe the steak out itself spooked him a bit because as far as I know, I've I've looked on the webs to see what I can find out about further harassment. As far as I know that this was it where it ended. This is about where it ended. As far as I know was in nineteen late n Well, yeah, I don't know.

I think that maybe gives some credence to Steve's theory that it was the note get the message was Justin saying, oh, I get the message. I'm not wanted here. Never mind, this isn't a fun thing we do together. You you guys are like scared of me. Okay, fine, I'll leave. That could have been She's not fun anymore. Yeah, I get the message. Yeah, maybe that's what it was. He was referring to the steak out to the van and all that stuff, and I get the message and I'm leaving. Yeah,

maybe that's what it was. I don't know. You'll miss me when I'm going. Yeah. He could have been a little more articulate, damn it. Least use punctuation, ye man, Yeah, come on, just get it together. Damn Justin. So Justin like left their lives as just as quietly as he came into their lives. We never had any We never We don't know why it happened or anything. A little

more quietly, let's be fair. Yeah, Yeah, Bill Bill Whacker died in Dorothy lived in that same house until she died, or at least she owned the house and maybe she was living somewhere else. I don't know, but she still own now still and then her daughter Peggy bought the place and owns it today. Yeah. And so if you're out the way out that way, if you're attempted to go thump on the wall, leave it out. Well, I never heard of you. I had no I don't know

what you're talking about. I would recommend not doing that. You shouldn't, you know, I mean, I don't know. This story is still kind of active on the web, and it might be that people actually do just for the sheer fun of it. Go do that if if you can find out their address, which if you look on the web you can't find the address because people are jerks, and put it out there. Yeah, exactly, we're not doing that.

We don't know. Peggy might not be as good humored about the whole thing as her parents were, so she might have like a shotgun. So I wouldn't recommend it. But well, it's almost time to talk about some theories. But first let's take a break. Knock knock degree. Well, according to my friends at the Census Bureau, a certainty that with one you you're most likely going to earn double or triple what you would be without. Are you considering going to college, whether you're attending for the first

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and we're back. Okay, let's talk about some theories. And there's a lot of theories out there in the worldwide webs I put a list um here, then I showed you guys, uh, and you guys have any other theories you wanted to add onto this. Well, there's some stuff that comes up through this that I think we're probably gonna add to. But I wouldn't say there's any new theories. I'm using air quotes here. Compared to the list that you've the five pages of theories you have here, there's

all kinds of theories. Yeah, well some of them are kind of, you know, kind of like similar to others too. Yeah, there's derivatives there are. There are that. But let's go through some of the classics that are out there, because again, this this is like a thirty year old mystery. So there are people have been talking about. There's this one. I don't know if I'll link to it or not. That might be kind of child abuse. But this is

one thread out there that's thirteen years long. I set you guys at length, right, Yeah, thirteen years Yeah, I never actually I got to confess, never made it. Entirely all the way through it. I had to con Yeah, just keep going. I'll just read while I talk here. Long thread, but let's let's go for some of the best ones. One is that developers wanted to get their land.

And a lot of people have thought this. You know, there are somebody's trying to scare the old people out of their house, and so you know why, while somebody wanted the house, somebody wanted to land, So some developer

wanted to land. And the reason I don't like this theory is that nobody, at least as far as Bill and Dorothy reported, nobody ever actually approached them about selling their house their land, which is usually what developers do if they're interested, even the evil nefarious ones, at least trying to buy you out first. Well, yeah, it's a lot easier in spending ten years trying to scare somebody off the land the way Scooby Doo would have never

become a thing. Yeah. Well, and another reason I think this is a kind of absurd theory is if you look at it on the on aerial Google whatever, their their parcel was actually very tiny compared to neighboring parcels. It's a little bit one. It's really a sliver. Yeah, it kind of is. Uh. And also I can't imagine anybody wanted to develop anything on on Wooster Street anyway, because I mean you've seen it on street, you uh that you see any new glitzy new subdivisions or shopping

malls or anything out there. Well, the fact that nobody, nobody did anything is why I don't think that this this has any any weight to it. Well, obviously you don't see the part here, right, is that the whackers were lacker, right, Yeah, they were the pivotal they were the lynchpen of the whole operation, right, So they were

going to be like that. They were going to open the floodgates as as soon as they sold, everyone around them was going to say, oh, well they got so much money for their tiny little piece, we'll sell you know for you know, pennies on the dollars on the penny or whatever. Then I think, I like, they would think it was dollars on the penny, but it was actually pennies on the dollar, and they weren't getting really as much in Bulah. I mean that was obviously the

whole thing, right. They were going to come in and offer the old people what would have to those people been a relatively large amount of money, but really property so much and then demolished the whole thing and put up a glitzy new suburb. Yeah, or a shopping mall or something something that was going to be multimillion dollars. Yeah, but those those evil whackers foiled the whole plan, and so nothing ever happened. Yeah. No, I think this is a dumb theory. I'm sorry. I don't think you're dumb.

I think it's a dumb theory. Oh no, no, it's not my theory, but I had to put it out there because other people think so. Uh. And there's no that kind of similar kind of theory, which is that one of their neighbors wanted the house. This idea is that one of the neighbors, maybe one of their house because it was a kind of suitable thing to put up a family member, kind of what we would call a mother in law apartment, all right, you know, and

so and so there. Their house is not that big and if you again, if you look at it on Google, which I guess I'm not gonna give you the address, so you can't really do that. But we're talking a couple of bedrooms, maybe a couple of bedrooms, one bath, modest little place, and uh so it would have been

a good place for your mother in law. Whoever, or another variant on this is maybe a neighbor wanted it to expand their agricultural operations, although it doesn't seem to be much in the way of agriculture going on in that neighborhood. So I'm really doubting that one. Actually that's

not true. Yeah, if you pull the satellite footage and you look at it over time to the north of them, there's actually all and actually directly to the one property to the east of them, you can see that that that there's a bunch of big plots to get farmed. So actually, no, I know about that, but I mean their immediate neighbors don't seem that. Yeah, the one right next door was farming a big chunk of ground right there. You could see like them, you can't tell if you

just go to maps and turn on the satellite. What you have to do is put on the time progression and then you can see where things get mode and they get tilled, and so they weren't working it. I don't know what the hell they ever growing, but they

were doing something to it. But but I mean, realistically, I think what the point Joe is trying to make, right is that like even if somebody is, you know, working the land, the plot of land at the whackers own, yeah, like for a ten years campaign, and then again, nobody ever had actually approached them, you would think that at some point one of the neighbors would have said, you know, it sounds like you guys are really suffering. Why don't take this off your hands for you? Nobody did paid

for it, No nobody ever did. That's true, And you think they would have actually turned up the heat a little bit too, although I guess you could argue that they did with that attack on Northern and I suppose you could say that, uh yeah, But the mother in law apartment then makes a little bit more sense than somebody just expanding their farm, although you think it would be one of the neighbors immediately adjacent, right, because if it's somebody down the road little way, so well, what's

the point of that you just got Well, I I've got to say, not everybody wants their mother in law right next door. Yea, sometimes it's nice to have a little distance. Oh yeah, for sure. But then but then why I focus on the whackers? I mean really, I don't know, Joe. I mean, they get this is this is just as as much hooey as the last one that we talked about. They maybe it's the people who are up, you know, not the next door but the

next door to the next door neighbor. And they thought, well, we'll surround the next door neighbor and make it so miserable for them to still be there that they'll sell out too, and then we'll get the whole thing. Oh wow, and that will sell it for a shopping mall. Yeah, that could have been that. But again, yeah, it's just yeah, nobody ever approached them, and also nobody murdered them, and I think that would be easier. At some point in

that tenure campaign, you think, why wout we just kill them? Yeah, let's just murder them. Yeah, and then you like, you know, take their blood and you scroll satanic messages all over the walls of the house, and that that guarantees you're gonna get that house for a really really cheap. Yeah. Although there's there's one thing about this Seria, I really like what it will explain why this campaign feels without in the nineties, which is maybe the mother in law

finally died and made the whole thing to move point. Okay, still a bad theory, all right, Uh okay, let's move on to our next theory, which this one somebody was just a dirt bag, which is a real possibility. I mean, it could have been somebody just who wanted to stir up a bit of trouble for somebody, make somebody's laugh a little harder, a little more miserable. And based on my own experience, there's a lot of people like that are yeah. And I know Steve, you had you had

something about that you wanted to sho. I found a connection to this, which is I know that I can't be the only one that's ever made the connection. But you guys have heard of the Circleville letter writer, which Circleville is like two hours to the west southwest of How did you say this town name again? By the way, apologizes to the residents of massilf. I'm mispronouncing. Okay, well,

we're gonna run with that pronunciation. But between nineteen seventy six and three, somebody went on a massive letter writing campaign in that town harassing the residents of the town. Um like there was somebody that they discovered was having a school bus driver was having an affair with the superintendent, so writing threatening letters. The weird thing was the letters weren't being postmarked from that town. Instead, they were coming from Columbus, which is again like an hour drive away,

So it was a really weird thing. But in three the woman who the bus driver who was getting acute all the letters about her affair, found signs on the side of the road saying slanders things about her, went up to tear it down, saw a box on it had to wherewithal to stop she was doing, and somehow Jimmy opened the box to find a gun in it, which they to, which they tracked to somebody else in that Poor schleb spent like ten plush years in the clink for it, but it's stopped and he The thing

with the Circleville letter writer is that the guy who went to jail, he was getting letters in jail from the letter writer. So it's like, what, it can't be him. But if we look at Bill and Dorothy, when did things start up with them though eighty four? So if this guy leaves town from Circleville in eight three eight lady eighty three, early eighty four and moves to this town. I was like, you know, I really kind of enjoyed just checking people around. Hey there's another innocent couple that

I can take my wrath out on. Yeah, but why would he actually like physically attack them. Though you've used this term before, escalation, Its worked through writing all these more vicious and vicious things, and then someday let's take it to the let's go face to face with them. It's it's not the same, but it's an interesting connection of that somebody who went on a campaign for about ten years in one town disappeared at a new campaign

that lasted about another ten years, started up two hours away. Yeah, you know, it's it's uh, yeah, it is an interesting connection. Although um yeah, yeah. The only thing I'm thinking is that he singled out these just this one set of people who said of a lot of people like he did, and you know back in circle if it's a circle, Yeah, that guy went after a lot of the residents of that town. He did. I'm still kind of curious about that case, but we'll talk about that maybe some of

the because it is an interesting story. I know a few people have suggested that one too, but that's entirely possible that it could have just been some dirtbag, although again, this doesn't explain why this particular dirtbag chose the Whackers of all. People don't really know that they may have ignited his rage somehow. There's a few possibilities, which is, uh, maybe some neighborhood kids had a grudge against them, which happens.

I mean, I don't know what kind of people the Whackers were, because I know when I was a kid, like, we had this, uh, one particular old cajure that lived down the street from us, and he hated all the neighborhood kids and we hated him all back. And I actually never did anything to provoke the guy personally, but still, you know, I didn't like him just on general principles, and you know, he didn't like that I was a

kid in my neighborhood. He had the best climbing tree. Yeah, of course, they always have like the best something exactly, and it wasn't fenced in or anything. We always want to climb that tree, and he always come out with his little ayer gun. He did not like kids. It was just we hated him back. You know, you don't climb his tree because you hate him. Yeah, yeah, I know. But although I actually don't blame him for shooting your

kids because I wouldn't want kids. I wouldn't want kids climbing my tree there for legal nus as well as I knew Joe was going to go to legal angle. But anyway, so what these kids decide that Bill and Dorothy are such old cranks that we're just going to torture him. Yeah, or well, I think it was I don't think it was a bunch of kids. I think what happened. What it could have been is that one of those kids grew up and for whatever reason, he remembered his grudge. Maybe he wasn't the most you know,

well adjusted person. Would have been one of the kids that went to school with their children something like that too. But the reason I don't like this series is that there's nothing if you look at their property, there's nothing about it that would actually cause them to actually have to interact with any kids. I mean, there were no attractive nuisances nearby, I know, great climbing trees. Uh, there's no reason for the kids to be cutting across their property.

Well that's why I was saying. Maybe it was a kid that one of their kids went to school with. And you know, one day the daughter was trying to date some or some guy was trying to date their daughter, and Bill came out and did the old you know, I've got a shotgun and stay away from my girl anythin. Well, jerk and never I don't know. I mean, you know, he could have done long rudge though, you know what, it has taken a lot less to set people off.

I mean, it's the McCoy's in the hat Fields went in it for years over the littlest crap ture that so we don't really know. Of course, the whackers say that they can't imagine who would want to do anything like this to them. We're very nice people there, of course, so nice people, I know, I know. Yeah, apparently they had forgotten about all those people that they fleeced in those pyramid schemes back in the nineteen seventies. But uh,

but they did. They did say that they had no idea who possibly could have anything against them, and that's what they told the police too. And uh apparently so they had let blameless lives and there really was no reason for anybody to hate them, or maybe they really had screwed so many people they just couldn't pick out anyone person in particular. But on the other hand, if they had successfully screwed so many people, than you think they'd lived in a nicer, bigger house to which they

weren't real. Yeah, I don't. I don't think there's anything to that. That house was pretty modest, so I think they probably you know, But but again, you never know when you're gonna like, you know, there's even when we try to be a decent being's still getting the wrong side of somebody. Ye, yeah, it's gonna happen. But yeah, as far as some random why some random person would select just the whackers, I just don't know. There there are cases where stalkers have started stalking people for no

logical reason. I have, uh, a friend who had who knew somebody who was pregnant, young and fairly someonet attractive but married and obviously pregnant, and some guys started stalking her and it was like, what's going on with that? Yeah, there's no real brhyme or reason to it, So you know that it is possible So those are some of the theories as to why some mysterious stranger would have done this to the whackers. And let's going to a sories Phase two. Now Phase two initiated. Yeah, there you

go click click click clickick Joe, you're showing your age. No, no computer, use tape anymore. You can go click click, click, click, nothing goes do did you do? Do either? So I would crack my phone will if I ask you to know. I was thinking about the computer on Star Trek. You know what's is I got, you know, conculating and because they had a bunch of cards and no, no they didn't have cars, had like all sorts of metal rods

clacking around in there, and the starship Enterprise. You want to talk about phase you want to talk about phase two? All right? That sort gets a little more interesting, which is that another possibility is that could have been one or both of the whackers themselves. They were kind of psycho and doing this stuff, you know, themselves, for god knows what reasons. Yeah, it could have been them. Uh. Some people have wondered if perhaps it wasn't them, including

the police. Well, yeah, like they talked about before, they asked Dorothyach thought Bill could do it and absolutely not. But obviously some people have wondered this, uh, and so well, we're gonna go through these series and we will answer the question for you everybody, right, because we had the answers to everything. Okay, here's another theory that's out there. Again, these are not just my theories or yours. One series that Bill did it because he wanted to induce a

heart attack. One thing that I didn't mention is that Dorothy had had some heart issues back in the That's why she was home for when she got attacked the first time. Yeah, she was recovering from heart surgery. And so he was hoping to induce a heart attack and Dorothy and collect on her life insurance well, which is a possibility, I guess, although I don't know if they actually had a life insurance policy, had never heard of one. Didn't an exorbitant amount, at least because they would have

always mentioned it on Unsolved Mysteries if there was. I'm sure that's a stock question. Do you have life insurance? How much recently? Yeah? Recently? Bam. I Uh. He would think that after after at least a couple of years of this crap and then no heart attack. Bill would have lost his patience and just running over with the lawnmower. Yeah, if he was trying to do that, yes, oh my god, I didn't see her. I okay. So maybe not insurance. But maybe Bill did it just because he was kind

of sick of Dorothy and wanted to go gone. Mean he just dead again, trying to induce the heart attack. Maybe that, or maybe you know, he just wanted to scare it and moving out. I'm picturing the scenario where she's like, oh, Bill, I can't take it anymore. We've got to get out of here. Well, I'm not leaving for nothing. They're not running me off my land, and no, I gotta go. I just gotta go. Okay, Finn, you

go okay? So you so, yeah, I kind of a kind of a little separation there and that that never happened either. It might have been the Bill did it because he was retired, he was bored, and he wanted some attention or just wanted something to do. But maybe to flip that around, maybe it was Dorothy and she did it for that exact same reason, maybe because she was retired and board and maybe because Bill was retired and board. She wanted to give him something to do

because he was getting on her nerves. Maybe that was it. So you know, why why someone would you know, hit themselves over the head or otherwise inflict bodily harm just to give their husband something to do. Well, that's how dedicated to why she was. Yeah, we should all strive to be that dedicated. Yeah, yeah, that's the first. You do that in your honeymoon and flicked a serious head injury in yourself just for yourhubby. Okay, yeah, we'll do that.

Well scuba diving, Yeah, exactly, it always works out the best thing, Yeah, I think so. Yeah, just wait that best really heavy? Yeah, super heavy, and what's another series? Well, Bill and Dorothy both did it for any mixture of the above reasons. They were bored and wanted attention. Maybe when the discussions online, I'm sure you guys read a lot of this stuff. At least about half the people out there just don't like this sory. There's the reasoning is kind of like, I just can't imagine two old

people doing something like that. Sure, if they were younger, young people do scummy stuff all the time, but as people cross that line in the old age, that scumminess disappears, totally disappears. There's no such thing as a scunny old person. Never happened ever, Oh I know, I know, And yeah, you can go your whole life with an i Q of eighty five, but when you cross the age of sixty five, suddenly your why don't don't don't ask me

how it happens. But yeah, count Yeah, so it could be that one of the wackers put on this whole show again bodily harm but that but the story over all doesn't and it doesn't really make a lot of sense Otherwise when you really think about it, I would say that I disagree with that because I just realized you are missing something from this list of Phase two suspects.

A family member kids. Yeah, well, okay, so if you stop and think about this, it could have been the kids, or it could have been a grand kid, okay, because they're in their fifties and sixties, so it's possible but probably unlikely there was a grandkid. But there's a lot of things that made me think that it was family member.

I tried to dig up records on anybody in their family, because there's the daughters and the son in laws, and I got one of our mods who is good with some of that kind of research to help me out

to try and find stuff on them. But if you think about it, they changed their phone number multiple times, and the person had it almost right away they were home, and the person always knew when they were home or more importantly, when they were gone to break in, and they didn't report the first couple of burglaries, which almost gives me the idea that maybe they knew that the black sheep of the family, you know, was having issues. I mean it could be somebody on medication issues for

mental health reasons or just something like that. And so you, oh, oh so great, Justin I figured out is off of his meds. Again, We're not going to call the cops. He's you know, he's going to get the help he needs and it'll be fine. And then Justin just does it again, and of Finn, you know what I mean, Like people do that for their family. They will put

up with a lot of crush and families. I mean, it could be maybe Bill and Dorothy had no idea, but you know, one of their daughters totally knew and was covering for that person, whether it be again for you know, somebody with medication, because the medication issues is what I always think of when I feel when I read about the the six months to year gaps, because you know, sometimes people are on the straight and narrow and then something happens and suddenly they're a kimbo again,

and then they are going to go ahead and start doing these weird things. There's just too much that's too close to home for me to say that it's anybody but a family member. That's that's my problem with this whole story. I guess I just keep having that issue

with the with the actual physical attacks. Well, you know, it's one thing to say, Okay, well, you know Justin was office Medsin came in, was like knocking on doors and like writing stupid letters and like kind of doing I don't almost just like you know, pultry stuff, right, you know, the kind of just annoying stuff. But it's another thing to say, like and then Justin hit her over the head as hard as he freaking could with a bat and left her for dead, you know what

I mean. Like those are two very different. But if Justin is completely off his rocker, maybe he may not have that thing and you know, okay, so, and the the other side of this is okay, So we're saying, maybe this is somebody who's being corrected by their medication. Could be the black sheep of the family who, let's say,

has a drug problem and so they're needing money. So that attack on Dorothy where the guy had the car issues, could very easily have been Justin got his buddy Aaron and said, hey, Aaron, go knock on the door and use the phone, and then you leave the door open and I'll come in and I'll clock her on the head and we'll we'll get some stuff so we can score some smack. I mean it rings of that same kind of scenario, but something justin air and have gotten

off of everything. But then Justin comes to his senses and feels bad and slowly starts giving it back. But it's still does weird crap. How was it going to give back to stuff that they pond or trade for drugs? I don't I don't know the answer to this. I mean, maybe Aaron got cold feet once they let the house. I have no idea what went down here, but my point is it just seems too close to home. Have you guys Um, there's the Kaikendal case. Did you guys

ever read about that one? Okay, this is a family that started getting harassing text messages and the text messages were supposedly originating from one of their own, chilled, sixteen year old daughter's phones, and people are like, oh my god, they're being stocked. There being you know, so they change phones and it keeps happening. People, well, they must be hated,

but really, so much evidence. I mean, they went through like three or four or five phones of piece, changing their numbers and changing physical devices, and somehow this kept happening. It's like, no, this is this is way too close to home. Somebody in the family, probably the owner of the original phone, is doing it. And that's this makes me think of that same kind of case, where it's just it's too easy, it's too easy to say it's some outside mysterious person. Yeah, no, I think it was

the bid. Yeah. I do agree that if it was somebody other than Dorothy your Bill or Dorothy end Bill, Yeah, it probably was somebody close to home, like a neighbor or family member, you know, somebody, somebody you know who knew them well enough to know their habits. And stuff like that. Yeah, probably so. Um, but then again, but let's talk a little bit about Bill and Dorothy as suspects.

So which is I still think that that really, when you think about this case, it makes the most sense because again, the first two break ins, like you say, weren't reported in eighty four because they thought, well, maybe it was a family member. Then why report the third one if you know it's the same family member, You know, why report that one if you're worried about gett him

in trouble? And then um, again we talked a little bit about Dorothy letting a stranger into the house and then just leaving the room, something most of us just wouldn't do. That doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't, Uh, it really does. I don't think old people are all that trusting. A lot of people on the web saying, but old people are so trusting. No, I've had lots of old people that were a lot less trusting than me, And I'm not that damn trusting, all right, I gotta

tell you though. Unfortunately I have family members who were elderly who would do this, who would say the phone is right there, and go into the kitchen and start dinking around doing whatever they were doing, and then because they're hearing is crap, not hear anything, and presume the person had left. I mean, these are the kind of family members where you're like, please lock your door if

it's fine, people are great, they're nice. Yeah, well, you know again, this is like to me, is because I mean, Dorothy wasn't that old where she's gotten to the point where she's kind of losing it. She's not a daughter and old woman, not, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Doesn't it's not beyond the realm of possibility. But just it's just most of us, in fact, almost all of us would want to have sort of an eye and the guy just to make sure he's not, you know, going through drawers and pocketing stuff while he's pretending to be talking on the phone. Uh. And of course there's the issue of the guy's car. I mean, assumably he parked down the road so nobody would see his car, so he Are you asserting that they this is all

made up? Uh? Yeah, okay, So you're saying that the first two break ins were totally made up fabrications, the second the third one was staged. The third was staged okay, and then that the total that I don't know. Northeast said, okay, Bill hit me over the head. We're gonna think we're going to kick it up a notch. We're not getting

attention we want. She didn't have what we can tell, any notable injuries from the first assault, so it could very well be that Bill tied her up and said, okay, hold still, I'm going to open the fridge door and whack you on the nogging with it. I mean, that could be the level of I mean, so I get where Joe is going. I mean, so far, it seems that the pair in in tandem could have pulled most of them. I totally agree with that. I just want to ask clarifying questions because I I really I believe

I agree with you. I think the most logical explanations. But they did it together. But the only thing that makes sense of this situation, the one the one holdover I do have is the the physical injuries. But even then, it's kind of like, I don't know. At some point, let me talk about that in a second. Well, we talked about the guy's car um so that stolen stolen goods and stuff like that. I mean the guy, you know,

I mean, I'm sure what was happening. I think I can imagine what happened here, and that is that Dorothy's talking to the police and said, oh, yeah, this guy wanted this guy wanted to like, you know, coming to use my phone because his car was broken down. And then and after they got a description of him, they said, okay, and by the way, what color was his car? What

make was his car? And she said, she's like car And the police like, well, yeah, I mean, if he was broken down, wouldn't it might be that she had and that hadn't really occurred to her. And she's like, oh, well, there was no car. In fact, I asked her what the car. He said, he was broken down down the road. Of course, the big question is if he broke down down the road, why didn't he stop at one of the other many houses between his car and my head? Well, maybe he did, but she was the only one home.

That's entirely possible to But still that's just another another thing about this story that that doesn't quite add the missing car. The another thing that doesn't quite add up is he's stolen advers being returned. If if as you say, Steve, the person had a fit of remorse, perhaps like the family member. I could sort of see that happening, except, of course, if you know somebody who steals him for drugs, he's not going to have him in his hands for

more than like five hours, or they're gone forever. I guess the supposition is you could he could have pawned them and then at gotten them back. I mean, it could be a small enough place that things like a movie camera don't move that fast, and he got them back, and that's why they were coming in increments. Because that's one of my questions is if he had at all, why wouldn't you just say, whoops, here's a bag full

of all the stuff I took. Why why do it over the course of, you know, a couple of times, and then there by increasing your chance of being caught dropping those things. But of course, but of course, the way the story is is given to us, the drawing out of the return of them is very impish behavior. Oh I got the one later on, here you go, here's the next one here. But I can see it being a pawning situation. So that's a good that's a good idea. Where they were just you know that's in

the series. That's the way they got it back, and that that would also explain why the gun was first, because you would, you know, someone's gun making it on the streets that isn't want to buy that one back at first. Problem that's probably in many ways the most useful at him there, you know, so you definitely want to get that back first. Uh. And I like that idea.

The only problem I have with it is that if somebody is feeling remorse, and you know, maybe they did, why would they continue with these attacks on their house and stuff. Although maybe again, like you're saying, like it was like sort of maybe somebody on medications who slipped

on an office technical behavior. You know, so at times he's feeling a little remorse, trying to night he's not doing it, and then for whatever reason, he goes to another one of these cycles and he's doing it some cred of compulsive behavior and then but then get back. Let's talk about another thing that makes no sense, which was the November nine three stick out again. Believe what I called that goofy yeah, gaofy or something or cluji or something, But I think yeah is not a word.

I know it's not. That's why I was really called. Well, it's it's a word now, hey, bringing it back, Hey listeners, Yeah, your marching orders make this a word. Everybody use it? Yes? Did you say sploogie scloogie scloogee? Okay, Okay, you gotta guys, you know, and Devin, you message this too. Is what are they doing? Like stick in this place out on the on the off off, tiny tiny chance this guy is gonna show up just one in particular night, or

maybe this one series of nights. I mean, because that's a lot of time to invest, just sitting there in the dark and the cold. I'm sure Ohio and late November it's probably pretty chilly out. Yeah. And so that's which is why it makes me think that it had to be so obvious, because I bet you the van was running to keep the heater going. I bet you Bill had some kind of heat or in the trailer,

and I wouldn't be surprised that it probably was. If it was a gas heater would have put off light, and if it was an electric heater, it would have been making noise. So it's again, they weren't hiding very well. No, I'm sure they weren't nearly as subtle as they thought they were being on the end, so the attack finally happens that that time they just happened to be there.

But also the the attacker I wait untill they decided to hang it up for the night, and it's almost like he was listening in on the radio, which makes them kind of a clever little fiend or justin. But again we have been there again. On the other hand, we got all and we talked about this is the more severe injury Dorothy got in when he got she got watched on the head. And the thinking goes that either Bill did us to Dorothy. But Bill wouldn't do that because he's not that kind of guy. But by

the way, that would be dangerous. He could kill do with by whacking her on the head that hard, unless he was trying to kill her. Maybe that's a good Hi, let's take I'm gonna up the game a little bit. Just hold still, I promise it will be okay. Yeah, I know, it's like, what are you waiting for? Bill? Are you afraid you get a kill her? No, I'm afraid I won't. Okay. Well, but then there's also Dorothy could have done it to herself, which also seems very

unlikely inflicting that kind of a wound on yourself. But on the other hand, people do fall and bang their heads all the time. I have a friend who just recently did her to herself. She just fell in bang her head and she had to get her scalp like stitched like staple back to her skull. Yeah, she got herself, you know line, Yeah, exactly. He used the red one, Yeah, the sturch. And it's like this, where's the red one? I don't know, sir, We'll stop everything. I only use

the red one, all right, But it's pretty crazy. Yeah, But but it could have been to Dorothy just had an accident this. I said, hey, let's not let this go to this opportunity to go to waste. Let's call the police and say that somebody costed me when actually I just fell in banging my head. So it could have been that. I wonder if they had a certain honestly, I wonder if they hadn't like a certain kind of

insurance like they were collecting off of the claim. So no, I mean that, like, maybe this is totally total bunk. I'm sorry that I even said it, but what if they only their insurance only covered like you know how auto insurance you can have, like I only can be covered if I hit someone, not if like I run into a pole, right like I wonder if they hadn't.

I don't even know if that exists. But some sort of insurance where I was like stipulation, yea, if somebody causes damage to me, it's free to get this care. But if I cause it, if I have an accident and cause it to myself while then I'm but that doesn't explain. Yeah, that doesn't explain what you do it well, no, but it would explain if you had a fall, why you would say somebody hit me? That makes sense. I mean actually, years ago I used to work with an

insurance company, and there is an accident benefit. So if you if you get something to an accident, then you do actually get a higher reimbursement rate, like it's instead of like or something like that. But I think the additional accident benefit is the same as if it's a criminal thing. It's like maybe maybe it is like a hund percent if it's a you know, a criminal attack. Maybe I don't know, I don't know. Anyway, that's possibility.

I mean, my theory is that it was maybe likely both of them, but if it was going to be one or the other, I would have to pick Dorothy as superb. And so Dorothy was masquerading is justin Yeah, so we gotta call it Justine Justine. Yeah. Well one thing, of course, there is the head injury, especially the but also the November incident. She was the only one who was really positioned to thump on the wall of the house and also leave the note. Yeah, so she thinks

she was sumping on the inside of the house. Yeah, because here's how it works, and so what I can see it now. It happened right after they decided to hang them out, So everybody gets in the radio. It's as well, we're gonna call it tonight. So what happens to Kathy her daughter? Of course, we choose that moment to get up, pick up the plates or the cups or whatever, and walk out to the kitchen to put

him in the sink. So perfect opportunity for Dorothy. You'll lean around and go lump, tump, tump, tump tump on the wall of the house and again then jump up and go what was that? And then run outside onto the porch and dropped the note in the meantime. I mean she was perfectly positioned, the only one of the the only one of the two. Really well wait, okay, wait,

I'm gonna I'm gonna ask clarifying question about that. Who is the one that I'm trying not to remember what I saw on the episode because I don't want it to color this And maybe you don't know and who found the note? I think that if I remember right on the in the they don't. I don't know who

actually saw it and picked it up. Okay, in the episode, I believe Bill reaches down and picks it up, But I don't know that for a fact, which is why I'm like, wait, you can't because it could have been Bill had it in his pocket and when bends over and look what I found the quarter behind the ear trip. Oh, totally and totally, And the same thing with the same thing with I mean with Dorothy, she could have just walked out and been over apart way and then ben back.

I'm with a note in her hand like this. I'm just saying that if it had to be just one of them and not a collusion between the two, and that I would say Dorothy is the one. Well, and it seems to bother Bill more than it bothered Dorothy. So I can see even that. You know, they had months where things were fine and then he'd do something to annoy and she'd just go, all right, your jerk, it's gonna be another night. And they had that really

heavy piece of furniture. She knew she shoved it, it it would go funk funk, funk funk as it rocked back and forth. Yeah, I'm imagining that. You know, she goes to one of the bedrooms on the driveway side of the house, slides the window open surreptitiously, and she's got like a like a broomstick with like a boxing glove on the endement dump bump bump on the side of the house and then and then pulled it in real fast and then run into the liver And Bill, did

you hear that? And yeah, I totally imagine. And while he's outside with this gun, she hides the boxing glove. He comes back in. What are you doing? Just sweeping exactly? Take advantage. Yeah. So a lot of people are all, like, you know, like thinking it was Bill, but I'm thinking more Dorothy I'm thinking Dorothy. I still think that it's got to be some family member or close neighbor poltergeist. There's always that. Okay, uh huh, alright, there you go.

So that wraps it up for this week, I think, unless do you guys have any of the theories or anything anything that would cause you to lean more towards Bill versus Dorothy or Dorothy or Bill. Yeah, all right, well we'll gonna call it Dorothy, although I want caveat of course, you know, we may be wrong, but if you have a favorite theory about this one, you'd like to contact us. Of course, our email is Thinking Sideways

Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. And of course you can find us on iTunes where you can you know, I don't know, download episodes. You can like, you know, like subscribe, you can rate us, you can review us. Uh. Obviously the better the rating and the review, the better we like you. So hey. Uh. There's also streaming services like Stature they're a good one, and Google Play and god knows how many other ones there are. Uh. We're

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definitely follow us on Twitter. And last of all, we have a website, believe it or not, it's Thinking Sideways podcast dot com and where you can also download our episodes. And there's merch if you over on the right hand side there, like Zazzlin, red Bubble. You can buy mugs and T shirts and I don't know all kinds of stuff,

okay anyway, So that's pretty much it for me. You guys have any further comment, probably going no, but don't get your gun out later when you hear thumping on the side of your house, Joe, Yeah, I know, I know. It's seriously, I sealed my face. I know what you guys are gonna be doing tonight. Yeah, alright, bye bye guys.