Thinking Sideways: Halloween Extravaganza

they help protect you from the monster under your bed. Well, hey there, and welcome to a special episode of the podcast past, the final week of our how Are We In series and Halloween Extravaganza, a Halloween story. You got to be creepy this week, not like last week. Yeah yeah, yeah that one. Okay, sorry, it was a good one. It was. Well, I'll tell you what. So this is one of those shows where we're going to cover three different mysteries in one show. So buckle up and let's

get right into it. Since I'm the one doing all the talking at the moment, I'll start us off. And they're Halloween, so they're they're creepy, they're creepy stories for Halloween. So don't be listening to this in the dark by yourself more do that's your thing. The first story that we're going to talk about is the unsolved murder of Leroy Carter. Actually, you know, before we actually get in the story, you know, I just realized people who don't

know us who we are. We're just in such a good mood, just want to go what is my name? Your Joe, your Devon and I'm Steve. It's true. There we go. Instance this is Halloween. Just be warned. They're all kind of gross, creepy stories. So munchkins around, maybe turn the sweat off till later, oh just in case. Okay, So my story, the Murder of Leroy Carter, takes place in February nine, eight one in Golden Gate Park in

San Francisco, California. By definition, cannot be creepy because it's February. Yeah, it's the only let me, let me, let me warm up to it. You're gonna be creeped out. Specifically in Golden Gate Park, though, our story takes place next to Alverd Lake, which is really just a teeny tiny little body of waters like twenty by forty but they anyway. Yeah, well at the time in the park wasn't really a nice place to hang out. It had a reputation at

night for having junkies and hoodlum's prowling around all the time. Hoodlums. Yeah, and you know a lot of you when if you read about this story, everybody brings up the fact that it's right there at the end of Hate Street because Hate Street is so famous. But it really doesn't have anything to do with the story, but you'll see it. So our story specifically takes place, or it begins on Sunday, the eighth of February, when somebody found a body in

the bushes. The body was inside of a sleeping bag, and at first everything seemed normal, just another normal dead body, yeah right, And it all seemed normal right up until the police removed the bag, the sleeping bag from the bushes and the body from the bag, only to discover that the head was missing. It seems like your head is usually like near the opening of the bag. So it's like, seems like they would have noticed that sooner. But okay, I probably as it was just a really

short homeless guy. Yeah, I don't know, but so the the head is missing, and every article I've read said that in place of a head in the neck which, by the way, the neck had been cleanly cut with a sharp object. Uh, probably did it in one stroke. But the investigators found in the neck shoved in there were two corn cobs and a chicken wing. That's what I used to replace heads normally. Yep, had a little placeholder. Yeah. Reportedly also about a dozen yards away. Sometimes you'll see

this fifties sometimes a dozen. Uh, there was. The mutilated bodies of a couple of chickens were also found, so that unsolved crime has also not been solved. Who murdered these poor chickens? Yeah, people don't seem to care that much about chicken. It's it's foul um o. This is Halloween stot making fun. So let's get into the story

that we'll get serious here. So the fingerprints, uh, the fingerprint of the body, and they would learn that it was twenty nine year old African American Vietnam veteran by the name of Leroy Carter. Leroy had a small history of arrests, but nothing major. So it didn't explain why he was headless in the park, Like he didn't get whacked by doing some crazy job or making the wrong people mad. I was homeless at the time, That is

absolutely correct. So he was sleeping in the park. Nothing unusual about that for him, I guess it's true, But but not to say that he deserved it. If somebody I don't want anybody, I just want, there will be no question about that in anybody's And that's not what we said. So this is one in San Francisco, and this is a case that immediately has the stink of voodoo on it, and the cops that are investigating the crime really don't want to do anything about it and

don't really know what to do about it. So they turned the case over to Inspector Sandy Gallant. Now she had made a bit of a name for herself in dealing with odd cases. She had handled the investigation of the San Francisco area members of the People's Temple. And then you remember the People's Temple. This was a couple

of years after it. But they're the ones who all moved to Anna and then took a couple of shots at then Congressman Leo Ryan and and then famous and then famously drank the flavor Raid and committed mass suicide. So she was involved in investigating those people in some of the locals members of the church that were still in the area. Now, we discussed that in one of our previous episodes. We did. Now, as you can imagine, go on and all the other cops really don't know

what the heck they're dealing with. Like I said, they figured it had to be something occult and voodoo wish, but they didn't know what's going on. Yeah, I mean the top of guys heading off head off and put a couple of corn cops in there had a chicken wing that's weird, and the just set it there. I mean they stuffed it down with like a topic as or something, didn't they. I heard that they were inserted

into the neck. I believe that would be the only place that you could probably readily put so I figured that way. Yeah, I mean I haven't I haven't be headed very many people, but yeah, you know that's I think that's the only big real hole there. Yeah. Now Gallant she needs help, and she reaches out to a guy named Charles well Wetley. He is the Dade County, Florida corner that's like like South Florida. Yeah, that's Miami, right, yeah,

right in that area Miami did And she did this first. Okay, I don't know how she what path led her to, uh to talk to to Wetley, but apparently he had dealt with similar or stuff like this, because she had been led to believe that this might have been something to do with the religion of Santa Ria, which yeah,

it's a it's a cribba. Well it it initially it's actually from Central Africa, and then the slaves came to the Caribbean and then it morphed the Actually the the history of that religion, it's pretty interesting if you read about it, the way that they hit it within Catholicism so that they wouldn't get in trouble with their their slave owners. But so this this leads her down that

path's say, okay, who knows about Santria? Okay, Wetley, Well, she gets all to him and he tells her that, yeah, it probably is connected, but more than likely it's actually directly linked to an offshoot of that religion, which is Palo Mayombe. I really hope I pronounced that right, That's how I did it. It's it's a darker, creepier off. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's already a little bit. There's much more sacrifice, and we're gonna talk about some of the some theories

and and later on here we'll get into it. But what actually, you know what, let's just talk about it now because this is this is what's going on, is Wetley is telling her that it's both likely that and he's saying that what's happened is the head has probably been taken to be used in I'm going to call it a student like concoction to make a potion. Head's gonna be boiled, it's gonna be then the remnants are going to be used in some kind of black magic ritual.

I don't know what that would be. He didn't venture to guess specifically what it was, but it was going to be some type of ritual. Uh. Now, this offshoot religion, the priests, Pilario's is what they're called, at least the men. Uh. They use both animal and human body parts. In this case, it would be the skull, the brain, the nose, the ears,

the basically everything that's on the head. Because I could have just said the head to go into that potion that they're making and then they can use it themselves or they could sell it to somebody to use for whatever.

And they were going to use that that ingredient mix for That's still a thing that you see, uh, like a lot in Africa these days, where um, there's this big plight of kids who are born albino in certain African communities because there are religions that are still practicing in certain parts of Africa where albinos are like, I mean, they're this is like what they do. They think that like they have this insane magic inside of them, and

they are often no, no, no, they're not revered. They are often slaughtered human human children are slaughtered to like because they have some kind of magic. Yeah, exactly. And that's like it's crazy to me that that's still happening. But like, this isn't like a made up thing. This is the thing that actually we have even now documented proof that that's happening still. So so practitioners of that religion, this is this is serious. Series is not like a

laughing matter. It's it's it's definitely the real deal for them. So what Whatley says is he says, listen, they has been taken, Uh, it's going to be used in this way. But here's the thing. Whoever did it is probably going to return it. And if they return it, they will return it to the sit to the site of the murder, and they will do it forty two days after the killing, because that was a part of this, the whole ritual. You had to return Otherwise the whole thing doesn't work right.

It's it's a it's a piece of it. Wasn't there another one like this where somebody sat, maybe recently even where somebody said, no, the head's going to be returned forty two days later, and they were like, yeah, okay, right, it might have been this one that I'm actually thinking it's I'm pretty sure it's this one. Because this is this is the biggest irony of this story. This is

why I like this story so much. Is that he tells goal out this and she says, okay, great, And on the forty second day where the cops staking out the park and checking it all out and wait for the murder, no, none of them went. None of them believed it. And somebody did find the head in the weeds on the forty second day, So our killer nearby where locked up dumped the head in the tall grass and just walked away Sky. That's one of the comical

things about this story. I don't I don't want to sound like I'm making like because somebody who did die, but I'm just just imagining to see it in the cop in the cop shop, they're all standing around, you know, chewing on a donut and have some coffee. If somebody who walks in and says, hey, you'll never guess what turned up. Yeah at yeah, I met. There were some sour expressions. I don't think that went over so well.

It reminds me of that scene in The Boondock Saints where like the local cops are like no, no, no, these guys are miles away and the FBI guys there and he's like, no, they're going to show up, and like as the other guy, the local cop is like there, I know all these names. I just don't think anybody else's um He's like, no, no no, they're gonna be miles away.

They like walk they walk into the police station like while he's like ranting, And that reminds me of this so much, where it's just like one person was like no, no, no, it's gonna happen, and everyone else just kind of blew them off, and the case totally would have been solved if somebody would have just taken him seriously. But now, yeah, because it was inspired by this, I'm pretty sure Troy

Duffy man. Okay, at least Sandy got to like, you know, like bad to them about it endlessly for years until you know what She's She's made a real name for herself since then, dealing with weird cases that have the occult and magic seemed to be linked to them, and she takes these things deadly serious. Now, if this case it happens, say, ten years later, and she had caught it, she'd have been there on the forty second day. But in the beginning she was still just so new that

the whole thing. She's like, I don't, I don't know. Maybe well, I mean, realistically, things like this have to happen for people to take it seriously. Right, So it is a tragedy, right, but if if anything good came of this, I'm sorry to say, something good could have

come to this. Hopefully it means that more cases in the future and more contemporarily have been solved because the investigators are taking it seriously and really saying like this is actually a thing that happens, and we're going to actually treat it with respect this time. Okay, Well, let's let's get into the theories for this story. Okay, Okay, So really there's a pretty shortlist of theories here. Yeah. The first one is that yes, it is Apollo may

umby thing, and that's what it was. And here's some things to know. The there have been multiple cases where the practitioners of this religion are stealing bodies or body parts from graves. And the stuff that I've read has led me to believe or understand that the fresher the body, the stronger the power. That it does make sense, and

it just seems to me it would be easier. Frankly, this may sound callous, but to just kill a homeless dude in the sleeping bag then to go dig up a grave, yeah, it's less likely get caught, uh, and it's way fresher. Yeah. So here's there's a couple of well known cases and I'll give you these here. So this was in New York about a decade or so ago.

There was a pair of priests. They were a father and son and they were found to have at least two human skulls and some other human bones in pots in the basement of their home, which the police were pretty sure had been Pilford from a local graveyard. Then a series of breaks. When you say in pots, pots with water over over burners, it doesn't it never actually specified that. I'm going to guess they were probably a

dry storage. They would only I don't think they would keep them soaking until they needed him, because it's you know, there's a recipe you do it for a certain amount of time with certain things. So I doubt they just had them sitting around pretty so in the freezer. Yeah, I don't know, man, I would pre brew because you just stick a cork in it and then you know, somebody says, hey, I'm gonna buy this thing from me,

and you say, great, here a hundred bucks. They don't have time to question am I going to come back to that? And I don't think that's I don't think that's right, because if you think about it, there's a certain mystique to saying, come back to me in forty two days, I will have brewed your thing. That really they could have been brewing there the thing, but you don't know that everything takes the same ingredients regards. Okay,

there have been there is also there's another one. This was also I don't know why these are out in New York, but there was another one where a woman had was found with a bunch of bones and it turned out her followers had been the ones that were going out and stealing the bones from the graveyard, and they busted the guy. I remember, they busted the guy with the bones, and he then turned around and squealing

on her and that's how they got her. Um, there's and there's here's one that's a little more in line with what we're dealing with with our case, which is back in the eighties in Mexico City, there was a guy by the name of a Dolfo Costanzo and he started practicing the religion and by the end of the decade, this guy had kind of gone off the deep end.

He got in bed with the cartels and so these things that he was making, these spells were for the cartel to help things go better for them when they eventually got him, and you know, he would be shot to death by day. I mean the authorities and correct for the police. Yes, you're right. The police cornered him and so he had one of his own people take

him out. But yeah, they found they found, gosh what it was like thirteen bodies buried on his property, in various states of decomposition, in various parts missing from them, and the whole thing came crashing down on him because he was in thirteen it was fifteen bodies, but he had he had made the mistake or his people did, of killing a US student who was there on spring break. He was a premed student, if I remember right. And then the US was like, hey, you need to take

this guy out. So then they went ahead and went after him, and that's how the whole thing came crashing down for him. So but I mean this the shows that this does happen. It's not as if we've just kind of made this up on our own. It also might help explain the mutilated chickens, because I have I have read a few articles that at least anecdotally link chicken mutilation or other kind of ritualistic mutilation mutilation of

animals to this kind of spell casting. So I don't know, if you know, I'm not a member of that group. So I don't actually know the rules, right, but I would assume that, you know, there'd be some sort of connection there if it was a ritual. Right, poor chickens, you know, we eat them, we steal their eggs, and then we grab and use them and this stuff. It's just like that. They're kind of jerks chickens. Yeah, Okay, I don't care that it's coming from a guy who

has chickens. But but you know, the other thing we talked about this a little bit earlier is not only is this deadly serious of these people and it's real, but it turns out for the priests, it is a huge cash cow. Yeah, and so you could see the appeal of let's say, let's just say somebody comes to the priests and says, I need you to do this thing,

for this crazy, crazy thing. He says, oh, well, that's gonna take the most powerful spell ever and to do that, it's gonna cost you out a lot of money and I'm gonna have to go to this huge length. So that's gonna mean it's gonna be even more money. And you know, realistically he doesn't maybe do as much other than he does, as Joe said, sneak into the park and find a sleeping homeless guy and chop his head

off with a machete, because I'm pretty sure it's a machete. Yeah, but then that would bump the price a little bit. Murder somebody, very ingredients. Yeah, sorry, this is very calcium. But I kind of like the idea of like you go see your your whatever, which doctor, priest, whatever, and you know, you say, listen, I need this whatever miracle level thing done, and he goes, okay, well do you have the head? And you're like, what do you mean? Do I have the head? And he's like the human head.

I need the human head. And you're like, I don't have the human head. What do you mean? And they're like, oh that price, that like a hundred thousand dollar price that I told you that was if you brought your own head. You don't have your own head. Well the cost yeah it doubled, so all right, your own head. Yeah yeah that makes sense. But I like the idea, like, you know, you go to this guy and he telling me your issue, and he submits a bid too, and

it's got the itemized list. Okay, okay, murder helpless hobost geth head. You I'm really sorry. This is like, we don't think it's funny that like this murder happened on we've turned this into a sitcom scenario. But also, I'm really sorry to anybody. I actually, I guess I'm not. I was going to apologize to anybody who practices pollo. My don't kill us, but I don't really I'm sorry, we don't put a hex on us. Let's finish up the theory that. Yeah, okay, so the final bit of

the theory is, well, why was it leroy? And really what it comes down to is it most likely he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time according to this theory. From there, we've got we've got two other theories. One is that it's just a random murder which some random killer went out there and sliced his head off and thinking it was funny, shoves the

core cops in the chicken wing in his neck. And then because of all of the press coverage, because by the way, this thing was covered in the news a little bit at the time, but it did get some coverage. It wasn't like, you know, national news, but it wasn't the did they actually say the news that all the Santa stuff the head would be returned. I think that that was in the paper. I was trying to find articles from the time. But you know how hard it is sometimes to a real especially if it's not like

a crazy story. But I mean you could see where this guy says, oh, wait, I still have the head because I was going to make it into an ash tray where the head is, but the cops wanted there. Oh, I'll just take it back. And then, you know, as Joe and say, this throws him off the trail for when I do my next killing. Well, I will say, I assume the cops searched that specific patch where the head did show up. But but but we're assuming, right, Like,

it's possible they must have searched it. But people do miss things, Yeah, they really, I mean they really do. So it's also possible the head was there the entire time and somebody just went looking. You know, somebody was like, oh, we'll go look after forty two days and we'll see, and they went and they were like, oh, here's I tend to take. Probably they didn't go looking after forty two days. Some somebody was walking in the park and

they saw the head. Yeah. I also tend to I also tend to think that they would be able to tell if it had just been sitting there for forty two days, or if somebody had like boiled the heck out of it, and somebody, you know, I could have been sitting there forty two days, it would have been eaten, not chewed on by the animals a lot. That's a

that's a great point. We never ever see anything that talks about the actual condition of the head right upon its retrieval, so we have no idea, right, yeah, but presumably if it had been left out there the entire time, they would have just been able to tell by that, just the state of the head, you know, and all the animal bites on it and stuff like that. I mean, the only other thing I have, I mean, there's there's

really no theories here. The only other thing is that, well, maybe it was Chupy, but he's not known for doing good clean slices. He d you know, saws his way through there, So I think we can clear him in this one. I think it was probably voodoo. I think it's probably well what about what about the theory that his head fell off? It could maybe maybe some good Samaritans saw the head and thought, oh my god, the

head needs to be like rehabbed or something. I'll take into rehab and that after fourties days, A gave up and brought it back to screw you head, You head. I don't think that's it. It's like a Walt Disney situation right where they preserve the head, only no, I don't think so. Well, you don't think they do that for like random homeless people in Central Park or Golden Gate Park, gar I don't think so. I got my story. What apologies to Chippy. I gotta say, I'm kind of

buying into the whole voodoo story myself. Yeah, I think, I mean, Chippy could have been the purchaser of said but I think I think Chepy's got enough mojo he doesn't need to go out and pay for it. It's probably true, yeah, but you know, just if there's one thing I've learned from this story, though, is that I'm never gonna buy used crock pot from anybody. It's brand new in the box, they're pretty cheap. My family they just bought me one of those. Grab Yeah. Alright, well,

so much for that one. I've got my own creepy Halloween story. Yeah, this is a case of Christopher case. Love this one the Christopher Case case exactly well put Yeah, this one, this one is about ten years more newer than the other one this happened. Yeah, that's more better, ye cross Uh. This begins in mid April. April nineteenth nine, Seattle police got a call from a woman in Fayetteville, North Carolina, asking him to do a check on a man that she was concerned about. Police want buy and

checked his apartment. And this is actually like the second or so time that they had stopped by the check on him. And they finally apparently found the door open, and they went inside and they found him in his apartment, in the bathtub with all his clothes on dead. Was she a friend, She was a friend, Yeah, somebody, somebody that he had worked with apparently, and she just hadn't seen him in a while. Yeah. They were now like

living across country from which but they stayed in contact. Yeah, our our guy in the bath The dead guy was named Christopher Case, and the phone call to the police was from a friend of his named Sandy Souder. She said that Christopher told her that he had been cursed by a witch and that he had called her repeatedly to report that he was being attacked in the night while he tried to sleep. I understand that, yeah, exactly.

I don't think Christopher had a cat. When police looked around the apartment that they did find a lot of crucifixes scattered about, especially he was in the bathtub. As I said, they found like crucifixes around the bathtub, sitting on the sitting sitting on the rim of the bathtub. And they also noticed that somebody had poured a line of salt around the perimeter of the apartment at the base of the walls, with extra little piles of salt

in the corners. And everything I've learned from the TV shows Supernatural says that's keeping out ghosts and other bad creepiness like that. Well, I don't know. I don't know if I would take them all that seriously. But I mean maybe in Supernatural, but I'm just saying in real life, it's chocol it's chalk lines. Really, no, it's Supernatural, it's real it's it's the salt. Well, they have Fox Molder use salt in the X Files once to take people away his zombi demon kind of thing. So demons. Yeah,

ghosts and bad spirits. It's choco. I'm sorry, just trying to you know, educate our listeners. The ghosts they're getting the one you need it. Yeah, a little salt is a good thing, and it's I can use it for other things like cooking, Yeah, or you know snails. Yeah, good point. Oh yeah where else they found salt also on the doorstep outside poured and geometric designs, which is odd. Yeah. And now the man who claimed to have the curse was dead in his bath There were no signs of violence,

no obvious cause of death. And by the way, I just in case you're wondering where there was no water in the bathtub. He did not drowned. He had his clothes on. I just assumed he did drown. No, no, no water. It was not a bathtub accident. Um, there was a bathtub death. Yeah. But let me give you a little background to the whole the whole thing, how this all began. And also a shout out to Jacob our listener who suggested this story, although I think I

actually found it on list first. You know, one of those ones that has ten creepy mysteries that will make it craft cair pants. You know that was signs of once. Yeah, exactly, back to the beginning. Christopher Case was thirty five years old when he died. He was raised in Richmond, Virginia known Witch. Oh yeah, totally, worked as a disc jockey in the East Coast before he got his last job, which was at the Music Company in Seattle. Do you use that company? Yeah? I m u z a K.

They make elevator music or are they still around? So he was working in Seattle doing that. In about a week or so before he died, he made a business trip to San Francisco, where he was introduced to a woman who thought that the music company might be interested in some ancient Egyptian music. Well actually, and also Christopher himself was kind of interested in various weird old music, so he was kind of into it too. And I've never got in a name for this mystery woman, knowing

much of a description except that she was older. And I'm not sure what that meant, if that meant that she was older than Christopher Case or just old, but that was how he described her to her his friend Sammy Souder. Again I mentioned her earlier. What what Christopher Case told Sammy souder was that this woman was quote unquote intense. Apparently, he you know, was a little it was a little weird. He felt like something about it was a little bit off. And they met a second time,

which has had a restaurant and they had dinner. Uh, and it was then as she told him that she was a witch and apparently she said she wanted to have sex. I don't know how she put it, yeah, how she how she made a pass at him. Yeah, but apparently the whole thing was a bit off putting for Christopher because he just said no. Or maybe the it was ugly, maybe it wasn't the way she put her at all. I don't know. Love the reenactment that Australia just yea crazy yellow eyes. It's the funniest thing.

Got crazy yellow eyes and a sort of crazy expression on you know. But but yeah, the reenactment is hilarious because she has this crazy looking yellow and you hear her voice more and he's all, I don't I don't think that she puts a curse on him or you never know. I mean they portrayed as being kind of a nice guy, but he might have been totally rude himself. Maybe he might just laughed in her face. And you kid,

I'd rather do it with dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And so whatever she puts a curse on him, she's not pleased about being rejected. Uh. And at first he wasn't stressed about it at all. You didn't believe in the occult. This was not as according to his friends, he was not some sort of occult type person. Which what's weird about this story. Things did start to happen and he'd wake up in the night. There'd bet he noticed strange

shadows moving around in his room. Uh. And once he woke up and he found that he had little small cuts on his fingers, you know, maybe kind of some kind of defensive wounds. And that's what he told Sammy suitter. And this was I think a couple of days before he died, told her about that. And I don't know if the cuts were still there when he died, if they found them at the autopsy or not. I don't

remember hearing anything about that. I don't either. I get the feeling that they were on the level of paper cuts, little cuts, yeah, a little bit he cuts. It's also I you know, I have a tiny little cut on one of my knuckles that I noticed today. I don't know when I got it. I'm pretty sure which didn't give it to me in my sleep, but maybe. Yeah. And it is weird when you get when you wound

yourself and you don't even remember doing it. You know, it's like, well, those little cuts are super easy though, especially paper cuts. You don't really notice some until you're like washing your hands or like cutting lemons or something. Yeah. Yeah, Christopher Case was trying to sleep. He couldn't get any sleep because he was again he felt that he was being attacked and of course the lack of sleep and in turn could not have exactly helped his state of mind.

Its vicious circle, okay, is he began to research ways to ward off witches. On Tuesday, April, that's two days before he died, he went to a Christian bookstore and bought some crusifixes. And the store's owner was a guy named Rodney Hgucci, and he actually talked to Christopher and he's asked him what he wanted to the crosses for. Christopher says, well, I'm under attack from supernatural forces and I want these crosses for protection. And he asked also

if they had been blessed with holy water. I don't know what the reply to that was. In Case leaves the house I think that night of Tuesday and stays in the hotel. He doesn't sleep at home. Yeah, he doesn't want to supernom And it didn't help apparently, because well, you know, dude, you can't hide from a curse. True. Yeah, So the hotel isn't your house, it's you. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. The next day, Wednesday, April seventeen, he goes back to

the bookstore. He buys some more crusifixes, and Rodneyhgucci said he saw him again. He seemed more agitated, more exhausted, more just strung out. And at that point, at the first time he saw him, he wasn't too concerned. He figured, guy's a little crazy. Second time, he's like, there's something seriously wrong with this dude or something and something or

something really actually is going on here. Also that day, Wednesday morning, Christopher Case talked to Sammy one more time, told her he thought he might die from the curse, and she was concerned about him and kept trying to call him back over the course of the day. He never answered once. The afternoon, Christopher Case wants to see a priest and the priest he was interviewed for that Australian TV show by the way, that we mentioned earlier,

it's called the what's it called the Extraordinary? Being Australians, they mispronounced the word. They called it like the extraordinary or something like that. But anyway, you have the extraordinary. The priest said, the case is I'll quote him here, could feel this malignant power influencing his body and he was scared to death that it was going to kill him unquote. So we got a number of people, Sammy, a suitor, one other person supposedly also in Fayetteville. He

was unnamed. Yeah, there was two people that he was two, yeah, two women in Fayetteville, the priest, the bookstore owner. Yeah. So he was obviously really concerned about this whole curse thing. When Sammy got home Wednesday night back in Fayetteville, there was a message from Christopher on her answering machine, apparently his last words at least definitely to her, but maybe to anybody. And comedy they played it on that that re enact Michell And I'm not sure if that was

actually his voice on the tape or not. I have no idea, but he said, they're trying to kill me unquote. Uh. He also said, I'm I'm not looking forward to tonight. It's serious. Yeah. About a PM that night, Sammy called Seattle p D. He asked them to check on him. They won't buy his apartment. They found the quote found the place to be secure unquote. In otherwids, the door was locked and there was no answer when they rang

the doorbell. Uh. The police did notice, apparently at that time, that somebody had poured a lot of assault around the outside of the apartment, like leading from the front door to the back door. That's always good for your flower beds. Yeah, I know, I'm sure that. I'm sure the ardner was Really they didn't, but they didn't notice the geometric patterns outside apparently not nobody said, yeah, I would mention that

over a line of salt. If you were mentioning salt at all, wouldn't you say, Like, also, there was this weird shape, you would think so, But I mean they might not have found a head. Who knows. Yeah, but yeah, they could have just like not just not really realized anything was going on. They just walked up ring the doorbell, not realizing they're stopping all over the whole salt thing. They're the reason that could have been it exactly the tray.

And then the next day, Thursday, April eighteenths the Sammy Sowder tried to call Christopher Case again, calls him multiple times, gets no answer. Spoiler roots because he was dead. Yeah. She called Seattle p D again and asked them to check on him. They went by his department at three thirty pm. According to most reports that I've read, the front door was unlocked at this time and they went inside. They found the apartment was a mess. There were weird

little notes all over the place, crucifixes, salts. They wanted to to at to him. And they found Christopher Case dead in his bath tub, on his knees, has his head resting on the edge of the bathtub next to the faucet. Yeah, with his clothes on again, burned down, burned down candles all around, in crucifixes, and he was dead. And the officional Quarter's verdict, naturally, it's got a little notice. I sent you guys a couple of articles on the

local Seattle paper about it. It was a little strange, but the official quarter's verdict was a keep miocarditis, which is heart failure, right, yeah, specified well, mile card itis is like inflammation of the heart muscle. Yeah, Christopher was in good health. I had no family history of heart disease. Friends said he didn't do drugs, didn't drink much, if at all, and they said he was mentally stable. Some people said he was less stable with his final days.

But I guess that's what the curs will do to you, you know. But but he still died of heart failure. But myocarditis is, as I said, an inflammation of the heart muscle. Uh, it is often fatal. Fact, you know, to three d people a year in the US die from it, so it's not uncommon at all. There are a lot of causes. There's infection, including viral and bacterial, both toxins, certain drugs, including some antipsychotics, some designer drugs can cause it. It can also be caused by an

autoimmune disorder. So a lot of things can cause this thing. Also radiation. Oh so you're saying that this which was dropping plutonium in his pocket, probably yeah, that could have been it. Of course you I curse you look over there. Yeah yeah. Uh. And the Wikipedia does not list witchcraft or sorcery has causes of myocarditis. But you know what, do they know? They're wrung a lot, right, So what caused his heart to fail? We've got several serious here.

One is that he was just frightened to death, which is the real thing. It can happen your heart, put that kind of stress in your heart, especially if perhaps he had some pre existing condition that none of us knew about. Yeah, well there's that. It's the flight er flight or fight pattern. The adrenaline that just like surge us through your body, can, especially if it's sustained over a number of days, which it sounds like he might have been, will like it'll just literally overload all of

your organs. And you know, if your heart is a little weaker, it'll just give out. And there are people like I I know a guy who just last year, it was like, you know, much younger than me, who just one day his heart just kind of blew up, you know, and no one had a clue. He was a totally healthy, very active athletic guy. Bam. And so it happens, And so there might it might have been the case with little Christopher and just kind of a coincidence well, and not entirely been a coincidence that the

witch puts this thing on him. It's sort of and then one odd thing, little sort of odd thing happens, you know, and then and then he just sort of just attributes it to these could that have been the curse? And he starts starts really sort of thinking about it, and then it's something a little odd happens. Oh my god, it's real. It's a curse, and it just stresses and stresses and stresses, and then just cycle. Yeah it could

have been. Yeah, uh so that's one theory. He was frightened to death, may be exacerbated by a pre existing condition. What's our next there? It was witchcraft and I was going to call some witches and asked, but then I thought, well, what if the witch says, Joe, you must out sex with me and then I get a curse on me? And I mean I didn't need that, really, we don't really need you. Guys wouldn't make the call either. So and so's people like to call people. But I was

a little scared this time around. Uh So, I don't know. I mean, maybe one of our listeners can can answer this question. I don't know. If an actual, real life which is capable of putting this kind of deadly curse on a person or not, I don't know anything. We will find out. I'm sure sure's somebody less. Now. Yeah, there's another possibility, which was that it was just sheer coincidence. Maybe uh, as I said already, it might have been

a pre existing condition. It's but it's also possible that he just at that he just caught, like say, a viral infection which you know, inflamed his heart muscle, and it just happened to happen, happened around the same time at this curse happen, and then of course you know he's he's once again feeling some of the effects of this in his chest, all this stuff that's going on, it starts ticking. Oh my god, it's curs and then

he dies from it. But it was never never had anything to do with the curse at all, not even dying of fright. He just died of the hard condition out of and it's just a sheer coincidence. There's one theory that you have overlooked, which was that he could

have died from carbon monoxide poisoning. You know, if he's laying and sleeping in the tub, and it is surrounded by candles, and especially if they're cheap ones, so they're not good clean burning because you know, when they burned crappily, they produce a little more than a nice clean burn would.

And at least I got the impression that he was using you know, rather large candles, which means it would burn for a long time, that heavy gas would pour into the tub and eventually it would you know, force the air out because carbon monoxide is heavier than air. And if he's got his face in the tub, you know things, carbon monoxide poisoning does have an effect on your heart. It's one of the things that it does that kills you. Interesting, it's possible, Yeah, his face was

barely in the tub, that was right, he was. His head was on the edge of the tub. The tub could have been full of invisible gas. You know what. Initially when I thought about this was like, oh, well, I heard something about the tap was gonna going a little bit, and so I was like, oh, well, then there was water flowing, so it would have gone the drain. And then I realized, oh no, it's going to have a p trap on the drain, which means because p trap stops sewer gas from coming up, which means gas

in the bathroom doesn't go down either. So that tub could have filled up with carbon monoxide, or he could have had a leak in the house and that's why he was freaking out, because carbon monoxide will do crazy things. Do you carbon monoxide leak? Like, what was the source of it? Well, it would have to been more of like some kind of masking. Give me some kind of gas leak rather than carbon monoxide leak. But it's one of those things like maybe he was eating too much salt. Maybe, yeah,

he was a salt freak. I don't think he had a gas leak though, because I mean it's possible that he didn't have a sense of smell and he couldn't detect the gas leak. The police probably would have noticed, you would think that the lea but I still wonder about the carbon monoxide point. Yeah, I don't know if they checked him and he would think they would have checked for something like that, though I don't know. You would think they would. You would think they would have

checked for a head, but we don't know. Good point. Yeah, um, but yeah, I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with pre existing condition, just exacerbated. So he was frightened to death. But it was a pre existing condition. Okay, carbon monoxide. I'm going with which alright, which one? But I don't I don't know first exactly. Well, my story is also pretty maccabb it's I think more Micawber than any of them. More maca, more mica. And actually this one was suggested

ad by some people. It was suggested by Candice and Matt. Thank you for that. But we're going to talk about the corpse bride of Mexico because I like brides, because I am a bride, not that kind of bride. Hopefully set yourself up. And by the way, just just to clarify here, this is not Mexico's corpse, right, it's of course right this in Mexico. Mexico did not marry a corpse. Okay, Mexico not. Yeah. It's also known as La Pascualita. It's a thank you. I wouldn't been able to do that. Yeah.

See I can pronounce things. I know what things are. This is the creepy mannequin in the window of the bridal store in Mexico. You know the one is a famous story. The legend of this is really simple. The bulk of the story comes from the theories, unfortunately, but that's okay, we'll get through it. In nineteen thirty, the mannequin was installed in the same window where she still resides to this day. What town it's in. It's in the region of Chihuahua. I don't know if it's in

the city of Chihuahua. It might be in the city of Chihua. But this mannequin wears a beautiful, long white wedding dress. I think it's actually the same one that she's worn this entire time. I don't think they've ever changed. I know they've changed the dress. They Yeah, I'm pretty sure that. I remember in the reading people who were complaining whenever they had to go do stuff with the mannequin, they hated it. So I'm pretty sure they changed her dress.

They hated it just because they were creeped out. But yeah, oh, you mean like a store shop an employee. P Yeah, like an employee in the store. I did not read that. I swear I read that, But I think you're making that up. I could anyway. It's very It's always a long, flowy dress. Uh. The store was owned by Pascuala a Sparza, who had a daughter who was to be married just a few days prior to the installation of this man

in in the window. And the daughter, it said, passed away from being bitten by a black widow spider, like on the day or of the wedding, or like the day before the day of the wedding. It's super sad,

it's tragic. So people speculated because the mannequin actually looked a lot like this daughter, they thought, actually, somehow, I don't know how they think, but somehow that miss a Sparza just somehow preserved the body of her daughter in mannequin form and just like put her in her wedding dress in the window, and that she's there preserved there sounds like it sounds like a great like Alfred Hitchcock sort of thing. Yeah, kinda, Yeah, it's a lot like that.

What's that story of the Mummy that's in the carnival ride that that turns out as a real body? You remember that one? You're talking about the real story or the movie story, the real story, not the movie story. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, there's there's a ton of stories about like the haunted mansion in Disneyland, like has X number of real skulls in it. Not true obviously, but whatever. So yeah, most of the discussion, as I said, revolves around theories on this one. So

we're going to hop right into theories. And the two theories are either it is a mannequin or it is a corpse. Right, Yeah, it's basically yeah, that's about it. Yeah, so let's talk about the theory that it is a corpse. First, a corpse. It's the real corpse bride of the daughter of the owner of the shop, who died from a black widow bite the day of her wedding. We will also see there's there's multiple means of death. You'll see listed for this girl everywhere. Yeah. Sometimes you never got

like crushed by by like a gravel crusher. No, so what are some of the other ones you saw? I think I saw this the most, that's why. Yeah, well this was the most prevalent. But I seem to remember something about like she was upset that she couldn't marry somebody, and so she threw herself off a cliff. I've seen that somewhere Okay, there's that doesn't lend itself to man a compensation as fair enough. Yeah, um so the mannequin.

If you listen to these while you drive, I don't know what to tell you, man, I'm sorry, but if you're at your desk or you're near a computer, you should google it if you don't already know the mannequin that we're talking about. Her hands are really super creepy, Like they're the creepiest part. They're very realistic, super like hyper realistic. The rest of her, you know, the faces not necessarily lifelike, but more lifelike than a normal mannequin. The hair is a wig, but you would expect that

from even a real preserved corpse. You know, if you were trying to do that, if you were trying to preserve it, you would make a wig out of the hair that that'd be a pretty quick turnaround process to make away, because wigs make take like forty hours to make good ones did it? But But also, you know the other thing about the contrast between the face and the hands is that your bride typically I don't know what's going on in Mexico or not, but it might be wearing a lot of makeup on her face, but

not in her hands. That's true. I explain why she's kind of monochromatic in the face, but her hands have the typical color variation that you see. You know, well, the hands, I mean the thing. Um, let me finish describing this and then we'll talk more a little bit more about that has. Her eyes are clearly fake, like obviously like any kind of taxi army and anything. Her eyelash around that is what they say. Um, the eyelashes

are fake but look like real hair. I mean, you're just like fake eyeli And then, by the way, fake eyelashes are essentially for all intensive purposes real. And then the eyebrows are real hair like stuck into the anakin. They're not just like drawn on like we've seen in some preservation efforts. And so what I want to say about the face is that there's no wrinkles or any kind of fine lines or anything in the skin. It's it's very firm. It's very firm, yes, um, And that

doesn't really occur in real people. Even with makeup. It settles into especially in the thirties, your makeup is going to settle into your grooves a little bit so it is less life like than the hands. But again, if you were to preserve a body, you would pull that skin probably about as tight as you could. It is said that she has very coast veins on her legs, but I can't find any pictures of that. Well, when has she ever been seeing what not wearing a full

length wedding dress. Well, according to Steve, when shop employees have to change the corps, that's that's where that comes from, as people who say they've worked in the shop, and that's that's where the very coast veins then come from. Yeah, yeah, it seems like you would have taken some pictures by now, but whatever. And also there is actually a case, well

two cases actually of corpses being preserved on this level. Um. The first one we're going to talk about is um Lenin, you know John Lennon's you can his corpse, Sorry, I really, I mean Vladimir Lenin, the former leader of the Soviet Union, who died a mirror six years before La Pascualita reportedly did on January twenty one, eight per actually not dead, he's he's you know, they've been keeping him alive somewhere in a laboratory corps is still around, It's still looking pretty.

It's on display in Lennon's mausoleum in the Red Square in Moscow since again, just a few days after he died. I think more than a few days, but they say like just before it was a couple of days. Yes, his preserved corpse has been there for literally a million years. The thing about Lennon's corpse, because people talk about Lennon's corpse like a lot for this, right, The thing about Len's corpse is that, um, well, there are some issues with preserving a corpse on this level. It's actually been

a major undertaking. It has been a lot of money on it. Yeah, one of the big problems that people that the Embalmer's faced was, you know, Lennon was older when he died, and so there were dark spots and things like that, and that continues to kind of get worse as he's preserved. Lots of it's mold. But well,

there's a really big problem with Lennon. But they seem to be able to kind of correct that with a variety of different baths and yeah, basically so they kind of were I guess they kind of basically bleached his body or his skin a little bit. Didn't they replace a body partner? They've They have definitely replaced a number of Yeah, it's one of those things like George Washington's acts, you know, and that sound like that one. Yeah, I mean they, Yeah, they've replaced. There have been like damp

spots on the skin. They I think they replaced an entire arm at one point, because I think, honestly, the only thing they haven't totally replaced is his face at

this point. And I was doing some googling and I can't tell, but I think they actually, like very like this past year, may have replaced him with a mannequin like this past year because in Night Uh in two thousand and sixteen, not nineteen something in two thousand and sixteen, it costs Russia thirteen million roubles of federal rubles, not dollars to maintain his body. There's like a team of

expert human jerk. He is human jerky. I would not be surprised if there's nothing really left with his hands, in his face and the rest of it's all just a frameworker mannequin down there. I've seen a photo or two of his body um and his torso is just creepy looking because of course he's got no organs, so it's just his rib cage and it's just it's just

skin and bolter, really looking. Yeah. Also, you may have missed it because the boys were interrupting me, but I did say thirteen million roubles to preserve Lennon in this creepy jerky state. Um, that's like, that's like over two million dollars American. That's a lot of money to preserve the body of like one person. And it's not really done particularly well, it looks because it's not necessarily easy to preserve a human body for that length of time.

It really isn't. Uh yeah, but I want by the way, guys, if I don't want my body to be on public display, just cream made me. I don't care what the fans say. Well, I already bought the glass, the class coffin. Dude, you're we've already signed the paperwork that contract you thought you were signing for for advertisements. Yeah, now I had the coffee tin already. Sorry. Uh So, like I said, Lennon's body, he has a team of scientists literally dedicated to preserving

his body. We also have a true, actual, true story that is really creepy that we're going to talk about right now of a more amateur attempt that might be more representative of what it would look like if just a random wedding dress shop owner we're trying to preserve the body of her deceased daughter. Ready, just as a warning, this did not go well. No, no, this is the story. This is the story of Carl Tandler and the love

of his life. Long story short. After spending most of his life with a fake love of his life, he really finally met his one true love when he was treating her for tuberculosis. It's kind of sad that he met her when she was kind of on our way at the door. Well, it's weird because he says that when he was a child, one of his ancestors came to him and said, hey, this here, I am described having to you the woman of your dreams, and for and for his entire life, he carried this image with

him and he even he married a different woman. He fathered children with this other woman woman, and they seemed to live a pretty happy life even though she wasn't the described one. And then one day at work, when he was like he was a radiologist. I believe he went a hospital, he worked in a hospital. He went to, you know, treat a patient who was suffering from tuberculosis, and he was like, oh, you're the woman my ancestor described to me when I was for in a vision.

That's great, and became obsessed with her. He did everything he could to cure her to tuberculosis. But in those days he probably didn't because he was using radiation to try. Yeah, but I mean, in those days, that's what they thought was maybe going to work. It was way before there was any kind of science point. This was right around the time people were taking radium pills, which we've talked

about before people were actually doctors were prescribing cigarettes for tubercules. Yeah. No, it was like it was that crazy time where nobody really knew what to do about tuberculosis, but everybody was kind of trying whatever. So Carl made it worse or something. But he financed a lot of her recovery, and then when she finally succumbed to tuberculosis, he actually paid for her entire funeral. He paid for the above ground giant

mausoleum that her body was interred in. And then nobody really knows how long it took for him to lose whatever tiny marbles he had left, but he did lose them pretty pretty drastically by claiming that his love was calling to him from her grave, begging to be released from her stony prison. Well didn't he? Uh? Put a I thought that he paid to have a telephone installed in mausoleum. It sounds like something he would have done. Yeah, yeah,

I don't believe he did. Yeah, and he was just having these halluciness hallucinations and just kept thinking she was calling to him and saying, release me, release me. If he had gone around the bend at this lost some marbles, Yeah, So I guess he just decided, like, I don't know, she's the love of my life, so okay, y'all'll let

her all her free. So he took like a red right writer wagon, like a little red kids wagon with him to the to the mausoleum, and um took her body from the casket and put it, put it in the wagon and took her back home where he um used wire hangers to put her skeleton back together, put glass eyes where her normal eyes would be, not where her normal eyes would be. Yep, Going with it replaced her rotting flesh with wax coated fabric and some plaster

a little yeah. Uh. Then he stuffed her body with rags and made a wig from her hair, and, judging from the pictures, put some makeup on her and like very crudely painted some eyebrows on her. It's super creud It looks like a paper mache mask. Her face looks

like a paper mache mask. No, it's super creepy. So once he was done creating his monster monster love I don't really know, he ddressed her in some of the clothes that had been left in his house because he again was a crazy person, was keeping all of her clothes, and put her in his bed forever unclean, where he may or may not have had sex with her. He did sleep with her body every night for seven years, and he uh, he was using a lot of perfume and a lot of disinfectant sprays to kind of mask

the scent. But it took seven years for somebody to realize what was going on. He eventually got busted, he did, but it turns out the statue of limitations had expired on grave robbing after seven years, so he wasn't really prosecuted for anything some of those things. I still feel you should have just been locked up on general principles,

you know what I mean. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Yeah, but the reason we tell you that story is to tell you that's what creepy, creepy We wanted to shoehorn it in here. But also, you know, Lennin looks like crap, like jerky, and he's in a temperature controlled case, cared for by like a team of scientists that are constantly rehabbing him. This is a story of really creepy amateur attempt to get a corpse to be preserved on the

level that we're talking about with Lopaskualita. And by the way, this attempt has failed horribly. So we have Soviet level jerky and we have speckled jerky. Yeah, basically we have the spum. We're just going deep into disproving the crap up. Have you seen the pictures of this particular calls corp spread. Yeah, it's pretty pretty super creepy. Yeah, and not anywhere natural normal. Yeah. Yeah, So I if you don't have to take my word for it, like reading Rainbow, don't take my word for it.

Let's talk about some of the things that I've seen from actual funeral funeral directors and morticians around the internet. As we talked about, even if a body is involved, like Lennon's is, it's a team of experts to kind of even halfway maintain the semblance of len is not in a storefront window in the sun every day in Mexico. I think he's in a He's in a sealed glass coffin which they can control the temperature. And isn't it flooded with like nitrogen or something. Yes, No, there's intense

in there. Yeah. No. On top of that, the climate, as I mentioned, like you know, it's it's Mexico, so it's going to be like extra hot. Yeah, and the oxygen is going to be crazy. And if I didn't mention this just to drive at home, we're talking like seventy five years in the window, not like it was a couple of years. Seventy five years of no visible deterioration whatsoever. Seems crazy to me, but hey, it's just

that's just me. The hands is the thing that we do talk about a lot because they are super super creepy. So we're in the just just clarify, I realized I don't know that. I'm sorry I did not specify. You're right. As soon as we started talking about creepy Carl dude, we started talking about it was it was a fake, okay, it was fake versus being a real okay, just making sure. I suddenly looked I was like, wait a minute, yeah, that's right. I think I must have deleted that out

of Sorry. Sorry everyone. Yeah, so just it's just to be clear that were so we started out with it it is a real corpse, and now now we're back to and castrating that it couldn't be. Couldn't be. Yeah, the hands, um are creepy, but I believe they are just really well done morticians wax. I was gonna saying, it really looks like to me the hands because because when you look at the photos, you can see there's texture like you have on the top of your finger.

But more importantly, when you bend your thumb, that that wrinkle between in the joint between your pointer finger and your thumb just naturally, and she has that where a cast mannequin would not. So it's got to be somebody took a impression, you know. I was going to say, I suspect. What happened is somebody took a cast of a hand in a position and then filled the wax in and then went through and kind of you know, painted or carved away certain details of it, because like

Joe said, there is some variation in the color. Eve. It looks at my white guy hand here and there's many colors in it. Yeah, and that's what makes lapass Melita's hands. So but that can't be by a skilled artist.

Absolutely it can be, yeah, absolutely can Yeah. The last thing that I will say for this theory is um Lenin's body is a much better representation of what it looks like when you heart embalm quote unquote a body, which is pretty much the only way that you could preserve it for this long, which is you flush all of the fluids out with like super super strong chemicals and that it basically just it flushes out your entire body.

You have no moisture in your body anymore. And if you've ever you know, gone out drinking and then woken up the next morning and thought, oh my god, I look like death because I'm so dehydrated, because you know, my eyes are everything looks like extra wrinkly times that by a million, And that's what you get when you totally flush all the fluids out of body. He looked like you you you know the New Captain American movie

that the first one of the new reboot. They came out a couple of years ago, and there's the Red Skull, the character the Red Skull. He looks like the Red Skull to me. The way his face is hard. Yeah, but a face anyway, but it is you. There's no moisture in the face. So the only way to realistically preserve a body for that long is to totally drain all of the fluids out of the body. But if you're gut, if you drain all the fluids of the body,

the body is not going to look particularly life like anymore. Right, So La Pascualita looks pretty relatively life like most Yeah, well she looks, yeah, she doesn't look looks like the skin is supple. Yes, probably the better we could say it. So I think moist is a little weird. Yeah, I realize that. Yeah. So I think overall, we just spent you know, twenty minutes debunking a story that I spent five minutes talking about. But I don't think she's a corpse.

I don't know. Yeah, I know. Joe has like an additional theory to this whole thing. Oh yeah, there's always the curse theory. It's true. We have been talking about curses a lot. Why not talking about it a little bit more, you know, let's talk. I'm talking about tales

of them a cob and stuff like that. But supposing that our young bride was just thinking about it and imagining the life ahead of her, thinking I'm gonna get married and I'm gonna have kids, I'm gonna get fat, I'm gonna get old, I'm gonna be unattractive, and and she just goes So she goes to the local shaw man. He was like, lives in the mud hut at the edge of town. You know, that's the one that's festering by skulls and femurs done in crusive fixes and all

that stuff. And it goes out and says, pay some money and says, I I want to be young forever. I want to be just beautiful forever, you know, And so he turns her into a mannequin. Yeah, you know that's that. Yeah, we've heard that. We've all seen that kind of story before. Twilight Zone and everything. She's just waiting for her true love to come kiss her. That ain't gonna be me, just on the off chance she actually is a corpse something touch out. Yeah, No, I

mean overall, I think she's it's creepy. I think she's an exceptionally well made face, especially for like the nineteen thirties. Well, there's that was an era of some real artistry. Yeah, and so, I mean it's it's the age. I don't think the time is as important as just the fact that she was made. It's not when she was made. It's just somebody was really really talented. Yeah, kind and they're there. Definitely were talented people back in those days

as much as today, probably more so. Yeah. I mean, yeah, everybody was used to working with their hands at hell of a lot more in those kind of those kind of endeavors, and we didn't have distractions like the Internet. People needed something to do. Yeah, it's true. We will never have another one of these because there's Facebook. Yeah, dang it. Facebook. All right, Well that is all of

our stories in this year's Halloween Extravaganza. Yeah. Um, well, you I know you waited to get the most creepy stuff from us until the very end of this episode, so let me give it to you. It's our email address, which is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. If you have questions or feedback anything like that, you can

go ahead and send us an email. If you want to see a picture or links or anything like that from the stories that we've covered today, those will be on our website, along with links to our episode list and merchandise, all that good stuff that is all going to be at thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You are listening to this episode right now, so you've gotten it from somewhere, whether you downloaded it or streamed it. So if you're enjoying the show, take the time to subscribe.

That's what helps other people find us, whether it be Apple or Google Play or Stitcher or whoever it is that you're using. Continue on enjoy and we'll keep putting them out there. And since we've complained about social media, but or we should probably talk about it, which is we are on social media. We have a Twitter account it's Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle because of that lovely character limit. We have a Facebook page and a Facebook group, so join the page or joined

the group. And like the page. And of course we have a subreddit, so episode conversations happen in there, and that having all been said, go enjoy as much candy as you want because it doesn't matter. It's Halloween, yeah they enjoy yourselves. Don't get scared to death, don't become a mannequin.