Thinking Sideways: Hall-Mills Murders

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and thanks for listening up. I don't know stories and the answer too. Hey there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always by my co hosts and Steve and almost almost gave it away as my surname is water Alert everybody. Okay, uh wow, So we've got another cool mystery this week. First off, I want to say this was suggested by Mike and a long time ago, I think a year or two something like that. Anyway, sometime in the one century. I hope, yeah,

I hope you're like still alive and still listening to us. Mike. Thanks. What we're gonna talk about is a very notorious double murder that happened almost a hundred years ago in the far off axotic country of New Jersey. Uh you've heard of New Jersey probably, Yeah, home of like Atlantic City and all that good stuff. Yeah, and of course we got a riff on New Jersey a little bit, and you know, double murder, New Jersey. So what big freaking deal,

every day occurrence? I know, pretty much. We're just kidding our New Jersey listeners. Hey, guys, don't take it seriously. We're just having a little fun. So let's get back to our notorious double murder here. Some of you might have heard of this. It was actually a huge deal back when it happened. It's like it was like up until that that time it was the biggest thing in the national news until it got bumped by the Lindbergh baby case. Yeah, it took about a decade before it

got Yeah, but until that time, it was pretty freaking huge. Um. So what happened is on the morning of September six, two bodies were discovered in a field that was part of a farm that had abandoned farmhouse on it. And uh, it was kind of a lover's lane. It was a little a little old called Uh it's it's in northwest New Brunswick, New Jersey, and it's called Drusie Lane. And

I look forward on Google, I can't find it. I'm hoping some of our New Jersey listeners, if they're not angry with us and they haven't shut us off already, hoping they can look at some old maps and they find it. But it's off of Eastern Eastern Avenue that kind of runs parallel to the river there. If you're PREMI, of course you all know where the river is New Brunswick, right, Well, it's it's where you dropped the bodies, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And these people apparently were too lazy or just too impatient to get all the way to the river, so they dump the bodies a little short of it. Yeah, it's not really. Yeah, the bodies were discovered by two young lovers. Of course, it was Lovers Lane, so they were out for a morning stroll. And I would give you their names. Actually their names are available and out there, but you'd forget them right away, and it's not that important anyhow, Right, it's Raymond Schneider and Pearl Bombers. Yeah,

and actually I probably should say their names. I guess there was talking about about possibly one of the other and being involved in the murderers, so oh yeah, yeah, I know that that's kind of important. Yeah. So he was twenty three and she was fifteen. I'm not sure if that wasn't partly legal, but so let's just take it one crime at a time, right, Our two lovers were walking down good old Drusy Lane and headed towards that abandoned farmhouse I mentioned about, but ago uh, and

then they saw something. Reportedly she saw it first, a couple of bodies underneath a crab apple tree. I was gonna say, clearly, they've never seen any horror movies. You don't walk to an abandoned barn quite a thing in so sorry, good point. It's really true. Those weren't more innocent times. Probably people didn't really look at an abandoned thing and immediately thinking of serial killer Matt Slash or anything like that like we do today. That we totally do, right,

Yeah I do. I do. Yeah, our listeners obviously do. We've got those emails. Yeah, for sure. So I don't go into those places without a clear warm mine duct taped to my chest. We should just talk about your defen the strategy for like a quick second. Yeah, I like it. Face towards enemy is not a good A good strategy, yeah, yeah, I would have pointed outwards. Yeah, definitely that. Yeah, and even then, I'm not sure if you would survive one of those, but I don't think

you would. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you won't. We got to find a guinea pig anyway back to Yeah, No, I don't mean like I don't I like guinea pigs. I'm talking about you know what I'm saying. It's what's interesting about this is the position of the bodies. I'm sure you guys have read about this. They were they were carefully posed. They were laid out on their backs, side by side, with their feet towards a crab apple tree. There was a man and a woman, and a man

and a woman. His right arm was extended and was underneath her neck, and her left arm was extended towards him, and her hand was resting on his right leg, and she was she was on his right side, and they were closest to her. Yeah, okay, yeah, exactly. And his hat had been placed over his face and he was wearing his glasses by the way. Her scarf had been wrapped around her neck, and it appears that it was

wrapped around her neck by the killer or kill. Yeah, postward you'll find out why in a sack that they've both been shot in the head. He was shot once in the head and she was shot three times. It was once above the right eye and then twice just below it. I think is where the entry wounds were at something like that. But yeah, and they were shot from the front, Yeah, mostly from the front. Actually, his one was kind of in the side. It kind of went in like I think like behind his ear and

came out of his neck or something like that. Almost like maybe he turned his head at the last second or the Yeah, somebody's trying to shoot me, that's probably what I would do, or put my hands up that will stop that bullet. Yeah, as I said, it appears that the scarf was wrapped around her neck postmortem because when they unwrapped the scarf from her neck, turns out her throat had been cut from ear to ear and

that kind of thing. Uh, And apparently it was like infested enough with I guess that indicated that they the bodies have been there at least twenty four hours and probably more like you know, something like that. They were posed in a way that didn't really lead to very

much suspicion, I would say, right. I mean, it's a lover's lane if it's nice enough weather, like you know, they're just taking an app and that especially with the scarf over the gash in her neck and the hat over his face, that seems sort of like they're hiding the wounds. Yeah, you would maybe walk past and it would just look like, oh, they're just two lovers laying there. It does happen that kind of thing, you know, the dead bodies, and people just think it was somebody taking

an app not unusual. So that's that's a good strategy. And of course guarantee the body is gonna be nice and right by the time they found And so yeah, the riper they are, the better it is for you the murderer. Right. Yeah, the cut, by the way her neck was from the right side, that's her right to the left, which indicates to me at least that it was a left handed kill. We had this conversation with Jackery. Yeah, I was gonna say, I I still disagree with the

automatic presumption killer could have been behind her. It could have been instead of a forehand, a backhand slash. There's there's a number of ways that could go. Although when it doesn't seem like we're talking haphazard slash, like I agreed with you with jack the ripper right that if you're just if you're like slash backhanded or slash back.

You also don't know if this cut was done, was what killed her, or if the shots were I presume that the shots happened first at the point she's laying on the ground, so it would have been a slow cut either way. But you can drag your hand across one direction or the other on something that's laying on the ground and not resisting you. That makes it easy for sure. Yeah, but so anyway, it doesn't really matter.

There were no obvious suspects who were left handed, so at least that I know of, But Lefty got off yeah right now, Yeah, that's the guys nickname is Lefty. That'd be funny. Yeah. There were two autopsies done on her body, one just after the murder and then another one four years later when the investigation was reopened, and that autopsy they discovered that her larynx and her tongue

had been removed. Interestingly, and so I don't know how the first medical examiner managed to miss something like that. It seems like a pretty big thing. Yeah, I you know, all I can say is like, you know, maybe they just looked at the bullet hole to slit throat and they just sawt well cause of death open and shut. Maybe. Yeah, I mean, maybe it wasn't an autopsy, but just because I had to look this up because the laryrics, it's

the larynx that was missing, right, Yeah. That that is just below your basically where a man's atom apple is up to the bottom of the chin. It's somewhere in that range. So it's and it's connected to the tongue it's true sort of connected to the tongue by muscle tissue, yes, sort of, not perfectly. Yeah, it's so an interesting little little souvenir to take if you're the murderer. Yeah, it just seems like it would be messy, yeah, extremely and that it would have left like a lot of blood

trace and stuff like that. That's why it brings zip block bags, I guess, yeah, but I'm just thinking, you know, yeah, yeah, if indeed all of this took place while she was alive or was the cause of death, there should have been tons of blood spatter. Well, there should have been tons of blood flow even if she was dead, unless her body had been drained of blood, which would be another really important thing true, you know, yeah, I know

I didn't. The cram scene was kind of contaminated, but you think still that massive amounts of blood would be kind of like evidence. But I haven't found any evidence that there was. I'm sure there was lots of blood, it's just the writings or the investigation stuff is, but that it would be all over her as well, a lot of it on her. But she was very dark clothing too, so that's you know, there's that and a lot of it was soak into the ground. The state

of the bodies. It could it could be like what Devon was saying, It could just be somebody who arranged him to look like two lovers taking an app or just hanging out, or it's kind of it could just just sort of a ritualistic kind of serial killer kind of pose. Um uh. And I doubt that I doubt that they actually did it themselves. Since they've been shot in the head, right, that kind of makes sense to

the killer did. Yeah, this is not a murder suicide packed thing, no, or even a happenstance that that just happens to be how they fell. Yeah, because seeing the other Yeah, no, that that that theory is is completely out there. I don't even know why you put that in. I kind of I kind of like it. What my theory is this is that all the townsfolk, when they heard that there have been two bodies discovered, came running right away to trample the crime scene and take souvenirs.

Yeah they did, They totally did. And I'm just imagining that they get there and he's laying there with a revolver in his hand, as somebody says, hey, that'd be a cool souvenir and just grabs it. So it could have happened. Well, yeah, you guys have both seen the photos of people all over that place. It was it

was it was a circus, it wasn't. I mean, there's all these guys wearing their their suits and their derby hats and everything, and there's like a crowd of them around this crab apple tree and they're all grinning and carving their initials into this crab apple. They were carving their initials. They were carving chunks of it away images that I saw you could tell they were. They were taking big scrapes out of it down to bear wood.

I'm sure that tree was done. I'm sure. Yeah, what that crab I will treat you to them, I know, I know, I mean it was a little crabby, but yeah, but yeah what it makes kind of a crappy suit and here it really you know, it looks like a piece of wood. It's like, oh no, this came from like near a murder scene. Well, but also like really really, I mean, we all three are like weird people like

unsolved mysteries and murders and things like that. I cannot fathom being like, oh, murder cool, I need a souvenir. What I can see you doing it? I would, yeah, I would get a son or two. I grabbed the murder weapon because you always want to get caught with that with your fingerprints on it and everything. That's exactly right. Yeah, but anyway, yes, I said, there's not much else in the way of evidence, because again, it was all trampled

on by everybody. So the bodies were really the only intact, untinted evidence at the scene. And I'm not even totally sure about that, because I wouldn't be surprised if their pockets weren't rifled seriously. Well, and so here's here's part of the problem we should we should explain this right now. Is that the property where the bodies were found, we're just on the edge of two different police districts. Yeah,

two different counties. Yeah, and so the wrong county showed up first and oh my gosh, what's going on and then realized they had no jurisdiction and they were totally off the so they just left. From the way I understand it, Yeah, they didn't try to secure the scene. Should have the authorities who should have been investigating it showed up. They had to shoot away the giant crowd because there were no police keeping people back. Yeah, I mean I kind of surprised they weren't like parading around

with the bodies on their shoulders like weekended Bernie style. Yeah, yeah, I get a picture of this. Huh. But the the initial pose of the bodies was, I mean, that's what it was reported, right by the couple that found them. Yeah, I kind of, yeah, it was. And I actually think that it's entirely possible that they were picked over a little bit, but they were pretty much I think left actually the way they were found. Yeah, again, it wouldn't surprise me if somebody like grabbed a Walter or watch.

I mean, actually the guy's watch was missing, so maybe somebody kept it so hard to tell, wouldn't wouldn't surprise me, that's Mr Hall Yeah, Mr Hall' spoiler alert in the episode title or anything. I'm not sure how recognizable the bodies were because this is September, so it wasn't like warm. Yeah, but it wasn't super hot. It wasn't like a hot July you know week or anything like that. So maybe they were pretty right, or maybe they weren't too. Maybe

they were recognizable. I'm not sure. But luckily there was a calling card at the man's feet. Uh. And by a college card, I don't mean the kind your dog leaves, or like the kind of card that like a serial killer. Not that kind of card. It's actually a literal calling card. It was like a business card, but it's just you don't get your name on it. Then in this case,

the name was the Reverend Edward W. Hall. Calling cards are an interesting You should look it up everyone, because I really struggling to not just give you a little history lesson on the etiquette of calling cards. So if some of everybody looking up, yeah, you will enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. Should we get calling cards? Yeah we probably should. Yeah, with our logo on them and everything. I don't know if we want to do that. Why not they're gonna end up at crime scenes. Yeah, I know that would

be Yeah. Luckily our last names wouldn't be on them, so good luck. Fine, he guess covered. Yeah. The dead guy, it turns out, was an episcopal uncle priest at the Church of St. John the Evangelist and New Brunswick. He was forty one and also, by the way, the card was found leaning up apparently against his shoe, and the crowd found it and they were all passing around and stuff. So it was covered in fingerprints. Yeah, it's got bloody

fingerprints on it. I don't know if that was from the killer or if that was just from the crowd. They got a little blood on their on their hands and then we're just passing this card around, so great, great job, guys. I wouldn't you know what. It can't be from the crowd because if if the bodies have been there for thirty six hours and the heat, the blood would have coagulated. The blood would have coagulated. It wouldn't be as if it was just fresh and wet.

It would be mostly dried, possibly a little sticky. Well. Although, although I have to say this, the pictures that I've seen of the card that were only black and white, so I saw smudges and fingerprints on it. Maybe, yeah, it could have been Maybe it was just dirt, you know, people had dirty that's true. But I do know they dusted the card for fingerprints. His fingerprinting was coming. It was in it. It was like the only thing you could do. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely fingerprinting. Was it

was its thing. But god knows how many fingerprints they found on those you've seen the picture, Oh yeah, and that was h and the real trick and fingerprinting in those days, right, it was like you had you had a suspect to compare the fingerprints too. It's not as though they had a database that they could run that fingerprint through. You had to actually say, Okay, we think this might be your fingerprint, Bob, so we're going to

take your fingerprints and oh, yep, they match. It's you. Yeah, exactly, and and definitely. I don't I can't imagine what it was like back in the day before computers. I mean, now the FBI and everything they can to database isn't just easy, but in the old days, can you imagine what it hideous job that would be. It's like, you know, slipping through the book, haircuts, the mail, Oh, another set of fingerprints for me to look through all of our files.

And I'm sure I know they had methods of identification to sort them out and stuff and and narrow it down, but still what a tedious job. Oh yeah, I know there was there were some ways to speed it up, but yeah, yeah, you'd have to listen to a podcast to get through your day. Right then I know who Tim Radio shows, Yeah, basically podcasts. Yeah. Uh. And as for as for idea, the woman and apparently everybody in the church congregation knew that the reverend was having a

little thing with one of his choir singers. Turns out her name was Eleanor Mills, age thirty four. Uh, and so she was easy to identify. Now. She was married to Jimmy Mills, who was a church sexton in the Episcopal Church. And also he was also a janitor to near my school. And so the sexton is the guy who's responsible for opening the church and ringing the bells and things like that. Is that I read about it, but it just it didn't I was like, I'm so

ignorant of that stuff. I know one of their duties was ringing the bell, so he did things at the church. All I know is the first three letters are sex. That's all I know. I have no idea what the sex and does. To be honest, okay, I know I'm supposed to know everything, but I prefer to know all about crime and stuff like that. Yeah, it's the person who's charged with the maintenance of the buildings and or surrounding graveyards. Okay, so yeah, basically he was a janitor. Yeah,

thank you, thank you, Devon, Thank You're welcome. Good job. Yeah. Should we have Syria on the show one of these days special guests, Sirie. That'd be kind of fun to interrogate, it, wouldn't it. H And also there was one of the little piece of evidence that the crime scene, which was some love letters apparently fragments torn up, apparently written by

Eleanor to her lover, the Reverend Hall. They've been torn up and scattered about the scene, although some accounts there were just some fragments between the bodies and that was it. So if I've heard of both ways, and I guess it's possible that when the bodies were initially discovered, they were all over the place, and they're the ones that were left by the time the cops got there were the ones that were in between the bodies. That's also very very possible. I'm pretty sure at least a few

of those things got snagged by the locals and you know, pocketed. Also, that's not looking very great for the husband. Love letters being torn up and scattered around their dead bodies. They were from her to him. So how are you saying that's for her husband? That's not looking good? How was he going to find him? They weren't in his home?

She who said she sent them? Yet that's true, I suppose, I guess when when it's love letters plural, I would presume, and I seem to remember that they were letters written to this affair been going on for years. I seem to remember that they were letters over a significant span of time. Okay, So I would seem the point more of a fat finger of guilt at the wife of the He had a wife. He did have a wife. Okay, Okay,

he did have a wife. Let's talk about her. He was married to Francis Stevens, who, of course became Francis Steven's hall. Uh. She was seven years older than him, and frankly, she was really not nearly as much of a looker as Eleanor. I'm sure you've seen her pictures, right, yeah, I mean she was like yeah, I mean she was like late, you know, almost fifty. Where is Eleanor is thirty four? It's kind of rare, I mean, yeah, yeah, oh yeah it is. It is. But um, so that

probably explains the wandering eye and the part of the reverend. Now, the thing that Frances really did have, though, going for her, was she had lots and lots of money because she had married. They married, I think about eleven years before the murder, and she was thirty seven at the time, and then a few years later she inherited family a family fortune which was like millions, like in today's money or like those days line, So a lot of money.

That's a good reason to marry, someone says, the not romantic. Good news is my boyfriend doesn't look at this podcast if he has no idea. Oh thank god. Yeah. Yeah, people, I don't know. People might have been a little more practical about marriage back in those days too. I think it was much different, different perspective, and I think some people were, but not, I mean not everybody. Yeah. Uh well, And speaking of marriage, Eleanor of course was married. She

got married at age seventeen. She had had a couple of kids with her husband, Jimmy Mills, and she had been involved with the church, the Episcopal Church for about ten years or so. And did the Halls have children, Uh, not that I know that I have ever seen anything. Now, Yeah, I think she was already thirty seven when they're married. So especially it's hard enough to these days to have a child at your thirty seven. I mean, it happens

even in the old yep. I'm just remembering some emails that we got after we talked about Elizabeth's supposed potential utility at that age. So I'm just not going to say one way or another if that was a thing now it's it's entirely possible, but the odds, the chances, the odds are less, but it's still totally possible as long as they are doing the practice that results in children.

And what is that it's the first part of the thing that the husband was the ton okay uh, But then what I In one account, I've heard that Eleanor Mills on the fourteenth, the day of the murder, she had found an article apparently discussing justifications for a mr getting a divorce. Because apparently that was like, you know, kind of frowned upon. The divorce in general. Was it was a lot rarer in those days. It was not

nearly as easy as things it is today. But she called Hall and essentially wanted to meet him in andy Rusy Lane to talk about this article and to talk about, you know, maybe them, you know, somehow ditching their spouses isn't getting together and wait to just because I keep getting them mixed up. So Mrs Mills, the lady who was killed, found an article and got Mr Hall to meet her to talk about this. Okay, okay, just making sure to talk about other stuff. Maybe to have sex,

I don't know, but a liaison if you will. Yeah, it could have been all kinds of things. But apparently he left his house around seven thirty pm. He was seen by somebody or another walking towards Drusy Lane on Eastern Avenue. Um, that was the last time any of those guys were seen alive. She was last seen at her house about six that night, I felt, and so she had church business to deal with. Yeah, apparently happened

to me. Technically she was telling the truth, but her husband, uh, you know, kind of did what she said to you know, he tried to argue with her and she just said, fine, then come with me, and he's like, okay, And that was the last time he's on her. Uh huh. I guess he's wishing he would have gone with him, but oh well, hindse. Yeah, the next day Francis Hall, that

would be the reverend. Hall's wife noted his absence. I think I had heard that she went by like the church about two am to check to check on him. With her brother too. Yeah, yeah, she had one of her brothers was living with her at the time. The other one was living close, very close by. A real recipe for romance when you have your brother living with you. Yes, yeah,

for sure. Uh So she had noted the next day that Hall was gone, and she at one point did call the police apparently and asked them if any they'd turned up any bodies or anything, because that was just kind of a strange thing. Usually you call them and say, I'm sorry, my husband is missing. Have you had any reports, you know, or anything like that, and said you call him and just say, hey, I found any corpses. I guess I can see it from the perspective of if she's in a bit of a panic, then have you

found any bodies? No? Okay, great, God, I gotta keep looking. Well, like I could see that that that side of it, or that she you know, as possible she had called the local hospitals or was friendly with a local doctor or you know whatever, and new had already found out. No, he's not in any kind of medical care. So okay, well the next step is turn up dead somewhere or you know, you call up that colinel says, it's he in the drunk tank. Yeah, although I did you arrest him?

I am? Did he get into the line at the church? Yeah? Communion, Yeah, because that's good stuff. The following day, the sixteenth, of course, the bodies were found, and of course the immediate obvious suspects are the spouses, right, James Mills in Francis Hall. Yeah, so James Mills was rounded up first, probably because he

was poor. She was rich, Yeah, super rich, affluent. You don't go after the affluent, yeah, want to want to treat them with the more kid who loves Also, I think realistically in the twenties, it it's definitely more likely that they would have just assumed that it was a

man who did Jane. That's definitely well, I think typically, I mean, women commit murder all the time, but you know that definitely when in situations like that, it's probably the guy who's more likely to become a homicidally violent you know, I would think, I mean some women would, but you know, I'm more likely the guy right statistically, Yeah, I'll get some angry emails about that, but you know,

I think it's true probably. And then it's not long after that some people, some people, they were like about four different people in the area and the immediate area said they had her gunshots. And then one of them was Jane Gibson, who became known as the Pig Lady. Such a terrible nickname. The newspapers are terrible. She had a pig farm. Yeah, she had a pig farm, and I think she was growing some crops too, And I don't know she was growing up for sale or just

to feed to her hogs. I'm not sure, but she said I told police that she had heard a dog barking about nine pm and that she saw a man standing in her cornfield, and so she hopped on her mule, which is kind of funny when you think about it. Why not just walk out there, But she got on her mule and rode out there, and a mule can trot faster than you can walk. That, yeah, I suppose. Yeah, maybe she didn't want to get her feet dirty either, yeah, Yeah, And she when she got closer to where this guy was,

she sat. There were actually four people next to a crab apple tree, and that appeared to be maybe some accounts as two men, two women, Oh yeah, and oh she also identified one of us having white hair, which the reverend did no but his wife actually she had graying hair. I'm not I'm not sure exactly how how moonlit than it was, how how easy it would be to see if somebody had dirty on September it's still

pretty fairly light out at Uh. Well, I'll just mention one thing briefly, and that is in the nineteen twenties, any woman of any standing or affluence wouldn't really go outside without a hat on, so to her hair would be weird, but she could you wear it up? Oh okay, never mind apologize. Although she might have decided to go casual because she was murdering people, that's true, but it would be weird. I mean, I guess in my mind, and I would presume I would presume in her logic

as well, if she were thinking through. And that does make a presumption there certainly, But she would know that it would be weird if anybody saw her after she had committed this before after that she was just like out like a deranged human being yet happen, or her hair up or nice clothes. I mean, this is this is you remember, this is when people are dressed, still dressing to leave the house, way before pajama Central. Yeah,

it's like that. Yeah, it's like that. That picture of all those guys taken apart the crab Apple Tree and Derby had that's because that's what proper people wore at that time. And they're all they're all acting like, you know, like they're all acting kind of teenagers, all dressed up. And so sorry I interrupted you, but poke that hole right there. So she said she saw someone with white hair, someone with the white hair, two men too. Women. She said she also heard some woman to say, you know,

shout explained news letters unquote. I've heard her say that she heard several different things shouted. She actually changed her story, uh kind of numerous times, which made her you know, in the end, I'm sorry she changed her story of hopping on a mule and writing out into the Yeah, yeah, but she changed there. We should have they should have asked the mule. I know than Meal probably would have had more likely than Meal would have been more consistent.

But anyway, but her original account, at least as far as now. She said she heard a shot and one of the people went down, and then she heard screams from a woman's A woman screamed, don't three times loudly. Of course, you can't really scream softly, I guess, not easily. Yeah, and then there were more shots and then uh uh, another woman's voice shouted Henry. And it turns out there were some Henry suspects in here, so uh, that's what

That's what the pig lady heard. And then she turned around, Well, she turned her real around and left first obvious. Yeah, actually, yeah, she was already leaving when she heard all the shouting and the other shots. And you can't blame her. I would have done the same thing, I think, so. Uh and uh. With the police investigation everything, of course, they took that into account, but they still didn't have any really strong suspects, no evidence to really point the fingers

strongly at anybody. Uh, And so there were no indictments just like that at that time. At that time, yeah, that was two four years went by, and then there was a little domestic dust up. It turns out the riverend Halls and his wife's made her name was Louise Geist and she was married to a guy named Arthur Real. And in nineteen six Reel wanted to get a margin lemon because they've been married for running what four years

or something like that, or maybe a little longer. And during the whole things, you know, all these kind of things, divorced and all, but whatever you can get a little ugly little yeah, I kind of happened. And he stated during this whole thing, uh, that that his wife, Louise guys had said and did I mentioned she was the maid? Yeah? I didn't mention that. Oh, I don't think I ever said. Okay, yeah she was. She was a made at the Hall's house or probably mansioned more likely that she was a

made there. And she said that she heard her scuttle button in the house that the Reverend Hall was leaving, that he was eloping with his hunting Eleanor. And she said that she had knowledge that Frances and her brothers and her cousin, another cousin named Henry h took off in one after him. That's all she knew. And uh, apparently he said, rial, this is Arthur Real again said that she was given five thousand dollars in hush money to keep her mouth shut about the whole thing. Do

you know how much that is today? Five sixty grand today's money is a huge shut up payment. Although for somebody who's just inherited millions, it's to drop in the bucket for her, But for the maid it's a nice little windfalls. Yeah, she wouldn't have had to keep working, she could have left her job. I'm sure that the guy who's trying to get the annulment probably brought that up to his proof that she had money and didn't need him, therefore the annulment could move forward. I'm sure

that's how that came out. Or he thought he was entitled to part of it if it was still around. Yeah, that had already been spent. Yeah, it's usually where that stuff goes. Actually, even sixty, I could blow through sixty pretty fast today. You could not then though, Yeah, wouldn't bring everything to your door at that time. Well, but also, things just costed less. Yeah they costed Yeah, they costed less. They did costed less. Yes, that's a good point. Yeah,

that's all I want to get. I want to perfect my time machine so I can go back in time and you gotta you gotta make those time machines only go forward. Is that what? It is very important? You don't want to go back and be your own grandfather four years after the fact. Oh yeah, so that's the Uh. And so the word got out. It was picked up by the New York Daily Mirror, and they ran a bunch of stories on this. Sounds like a bunch of

stories is a bit of an understatement. Yeah, the tons of stories about this they did, and uh, they sort of brought the whole story back to life. It was. It had been kind of more of a fammy when you think about it. Since some people were put on trial. Their lives probably would have been easier if this whole annulment thing hadn't come up. You know, sleeping dogs would have like, you know, just been left alone. Everything would

have been okay. But there was such a stink made by the Daily Mirror that Harry Moore, who was governor in New Jersey at the time, decided to order another police investigation. Uh. And sot and so Francis and her brothers and let me give you her brother's names, by the way, Uh, Williams Stevens, Henry Stevens, and William was the guy that was living at home in the house with her. It was said to possibly have Asperger syndrome,

but of course he wasn't diagnosed. Yeah, yeah, uh. And then Henry was the guy that was living down the street a little bit. And then her cousin, Henry Carr. I don't know if I don't know if it's Carpenter or just Carpenter, but it's like Carpenter but with a D instead of a T. He lived what twenty away something like that? Yeah, he was, he was, Yeah, and so yeah, that's that's a little less convenient to round him up on short notice and haven't come over and

participate in the murder. Yeah, But there was a trial and Francis and her two brothers were put on trial. Henry Carpenter. I'm just gonna go with Carpenter's pronunciation here. He wasn't died separately, but before the trial ended, the charges against him were dropped. Apparently, what I mean the main reason they liked him as well. One of the pig Lady heard the word Henry being yelled number one

and number two. He was supposedly kind of a sharpshooter, had guns and was handy with guns and yeah, so he was Other than that, it was an substantial Yeah, not barely, if even that. Really, So it was a big It was a big trial lasted about five weeks, and of course it was hugely covered by the press. The famous people actually covered it, like Damon Runyon for example. Is this the trial where the pig lady came to

trial in bed to testify? Yeah, she had come down with cancer unfortunately, and so they just like wheelded literally giant bed her in it and she's leaving her arms. Yeah, it's laying there testifying and stuff. And of course, like I said, her story was changing it and she didn't get a lot of support from her mother, who was stated in the spectator's gallery her mother was yelling a liar at her. That's how that didn't help her with the jury. Yeah. So the jury deliberated five hours and

delivered an not guilty verdicts. Shocking. Yeah. You know who didn't testify at this the people who found the bodies. Oh, that's right, that the lovers didn't. They never got isn't that. Well, there's some there's some stinky history with them that I want to bring up when we get into the theory section, but there's probably a good reason that they weren't brought up on the stand. Alright, let's time to get into theories.

Let's talk about the first one, which we already kind of like made fun of, but let's talk about it for a second. Anyway, that's literally all I'm going to give this. Yeah, murder suicide, Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the argument, I mean, obviously it could have been that there was a gun in his hand the locals took it. But the problem I think that argues against this is you know, the slit throat and the missing larynx and the happening

on his face. Yeah, there's that start to shoot yourself in the head and then fall and arrange your hands and have your hand to start being over you know, a cut wound and heard you kill her for eartht and then you and then you wrap it around her, put around the ground, laid down next to her, and then blow your brains out. Yeah. I don't think the entry wounds, because they wound on him would have been very difficult because it was still front to back ish,

which is very it's a very weird angle. So we don't need to debate and I don't think any of us believe that this is even remotely possible. No, I don't think so either. So okay, uh, you know whose idea was this years No, Devin, somebody whose initials are Day. Let's talk about our next cool theory, which is the ku Klux Klan. I kind of like this one in a in a weird sort of way. Yeah, there's really

no evidence, you know, it's kind of a shame. But this theory was actually put forward by William Kunstler, who some of you might have heard of, very famous like civil rights attorney, kind of became a big, big, big name in the sixties and seventies and stuff, and probably a lot of her younger listeners haven't really heard of him, but yeah, he was. He was a well known name back in the day, and in the early sixties he wrote a book about this case, which was called the

Hall Mills Murder Case. Original name colon the Minister and the choir singer. But I do have to say, as we said, fairness to the KKK counsider has actually been criticized quite a bit for this series because he actually doesn't really present any evidence to speak of. It's just kind of entirely speculative in his book. And if you look at photos, if you're looking for a racial angle, if you look at photos of Eleanor Mills, she looks like she could possibly maybe have a little bit of

African ancestry. Maybe maybe maybe. I mean, it's it's really could have she could have Indian haag, Native American hairitange, or she could just be pure solid white too. You don't know. But it's it's hard to telling his old photographs. He here's here's the problem when when we say this, you and and both of us have looked at the same photos. And what people need to remember is something that was done as a practice was painting negatives back in the day, and so people would go in and

they'd fix your eyebrows and yeah, they was. It was the original photoshop, and so that his dramatically altered the look of the images. I've had to go fix images like that, and it is so tough because it's negatives are so small and you just slip and you suddenly give somebody a uni brow without me do Yeah, I know. It's so you're right, it's very hard to tell. I mean, and uh, frankly, even if she was a little bit, like just a little bit black or suspected of it.

I can't I can't believe that would have actually driven the New Jersey chapter of the KKK off the rails. Well, here's that wasn't the main concern. It wasn't. I was gonna say, that's the problem in kk K was they were white, and they were Protestant, and they were trying to defend the faith. They were more based on anybody that they felt I was doing wrong by the not only the race, but the religion at the same time. So they would have they were a bit of a

moral crusade. And there's a lot of angles here, but I'm looking at where they are and not being in the South, that would I guess that was a little a little more credence. I mean, if if your concern is to kind of protect the faith a reverend cheating on his wife with another marriage, it is. But I also don't think I mean the you know, murders aside. The treatment of these corpses was relatively respectful. Well it was. And that's the thing about these guys are all about

sending a message. They leave their own calling card, and they always they tend to make claims. And I don't think the letters would have been torn up. I think it would have been even maybe sent to the newspapers a couple of days later them, or they would have been left attacked and just stick to the ground with a knife, I mean bodies or something like that. But but the thing you have, the thing about it is

is they wouldn't have posed the bodies the way they did. Yeah, and I do want to apologize to all of our KKK listeners. We're just kind of, you know, trying to get at where the thought might have been. Yeah, and I'm sure we got a lot of those guys. But well, let's move on. So I think we've got to give this one to fail. Okay, our next theory it was the Zodiac Killer. Great similarities between the two, right. I can't believe that you added this. It was just entirely random.

How old would he have had to have been he could have I think that if he had been twelve years old when he committed the murder, then he could conceivably he would have been like what in his early sixties when the Zodiac was on his crime spree, right around that old You are stretching. I also happened. We also happened to know that Ted Cruiz is the Zodiac Killer, so he can't possibly have been that old. And it wasn't Ted unless he or something maybe Benjamin Button ng.

I don't know, I know, I just th there was. You know, I've talked about Steve Hodell, that who wrote the book Black Dall you Avenger, and wrote a book about his dad, you know, being this Black Tellia killer would also being the Zodiac Killer and everything else. And so I thought i'd saw that in just a sort of an unwash just Steve Hodell, even though yeah, obviously it seems unlikely although it could have been maybe son of Zodiac or father of Zodiac. What am I saying? Yeah,

but like family tradition. Yeah, I don't feel like that happened. I don't think serial killing runs and families, so hopefully not. Well, there's the Bloody Benders that's different though. That actually and and actually nobody's really a hundred percent sure that those people were even related by blood. There's also that. Yeah, so we should probably not go too much into this. I know this is something that people have asked us to put on the list, and it is there, so

let's not talk about the bloody Benders. It's actually it's kind of a fun little story. Yeah. Yeah, so you have other theories, yeah yeah, yeah, so the Zodiac, Yeah yeah, I think the actually there there were similarities, being a lover's laying kind of case. But that's where it pretty much. Yeah, because he didn't mutilate bodies or pose bodies. I mean, he just wanted to people and shot them. Also, he

liked to tease people about it. You know, there was that follow up aspect on the notes and all the coded messages, yeah, which they still haven't broken. So there was like a mental aspect to it that you would have thought would have maybe come out. Although if it was early days. Yeah, now I'm going to rule out

rualize the Zodiac. I think it um fact is that there were lots of other serial killers around, as you know, we talked about other ones like the Atlanta Ripper for example, but you know, people wasn't around that Jack the Ripper for that matter. I mean, you know, seriri killers have been around a long time. Uh So, okay, well, scratch zodiac. There's also random murder. But still, you know there's this

it's kind of a similarity. Would a random murder thrill killer mutilate Eleanor's body and slitters a and also the matter of the letters and the letters, Yeah, there's that, and so it could be. Okay, let's let's just let's

just play this out a little bit. Let's say it is a rando rando and the person comes up and holds them up and then ends up killing them and sees this lot of paper in his pocket and presumes that it's money and then takes it out after he's dead and discovers it's nothing but freaking love letters, which are useless, they're worthless, and in frustration tears them up. That but still, why pose them? Why then split her

throat and take her tongue in larynx? Why cover up the crime scene in the way that he would have or she would have had a stagecraft? That's all I got. Yeah, I mean, it's if it was a random thing or or a robbery that you know what kind of went south, then yeah, there's no reason to stick around and risk getting caught by spending all that time leading here, imposing the bodies and all that stuff. That very true. I so regretfully got to scratch that one. Another one James Mills,

who was Eleanor's husband. Now, this guy really had a good motive, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I'd say so. Uh. He never really got serious consideration as a suspect, though, he said when he was questioned by the police, he said that he had never had had no idea that the Reverend Hall and his wife were having a thing, which later he kind of recanted. There were it's I've heard it both ways. You know that he had actually been aware of it and had been kind of a

source of tension. Well, it seems like the congregation seemed to know it was happening, so it would be hard to hide it from a member of the congregation. You would think, uh, yeah, so yeah, it's one of those things where they got to sign out in front. It's got the changeable letters on it. I'm pretty sure doesn't know. I guess he's blinking. Who yeah, So yeah, So he had a good motive. But the one reason I think that he was not the murderer is the mutilation. Again,

I disagree with that too. Well. I just think that he would have been more likely to relieve the Reverend of a few bodies I totally disagree with that. You don't think he would have been because you know what, because you know what that makes me think of is like this expletive deleted was lying to me. I'm going to tear out her, you know anything she could have used to lie to me, especially she had, maybe even point blank earlier that night, said no, nothing's going on.

I'm not going to meet him. Do you want to come with me to prove it? And he said no, fine, go and then followed and it was like the last draw of like she's been lying to me this whole time, Like I'm going to take her voice, even in death, away from her so she could never lie to me again. There's also the weird blame dynamic that happens between men and women. So she suffered the most. And if Mr Mills, yes Mr Mills felt like he was being wronged, she was the one who was wronging him. I mean, still

killed the reverend, but it was her fault. She must have been the one who initiated. She's the one who betrayed me. She's the one who did that to me. She could have been cheating with anyone. My wife did this to me exactly. That's she's the worst. So that's why I think that's why Devan and everyone's like, no, we've got you've got that down on the wrong way. Well yeah, but not always that. That is why though I do think that the next three theories kind of

go together nicely. Is that is that the mutilation and the removal of the larynx and the tongue indicates to me that this is a very personal I would agree with that. Very personal murder. I would agree with that. And also the posing of the bodies makes it seem very perfect. I agree with the posing of the bodies. I am still not completely convinced that the tongue and the larynx have and at that time it's entirely possible

they were removed. Later, they could have been removed in the first autopsy and not noted, and then when she was buried, the second autopsy comes along and they're like, well, that's weird, her tongue lyrics are gone. Well, you know, actually, I think I mentioned this actually one of my earlier theories, but you guys were paying I think it's when we were poo pooing the murder suicide, the murder suicide that said, the yeah, so I was wondering, is if perhaps after

the first autopsy it wasn't even removed. But back in those days, the medical schools and researchers, et cetera did a lot more sketchy stop when it came to getting corpses to train on and practice on and do experiments on. And I could totally picture some researcher or medical student or medical school taking her larynx in her tongue and just saying, hey, she's acquired singer with the great voice. That's kind of see what makes it? Tickets, See if we can make figure out what makes for a good

singing voice. Yeah, I mean it's entirely possible to somebody. We've talked about burke and hair before. It's the same kind of thing. Yeah, And so it's entirely But but even so, obviously I still think it was a very personal crime because somebody did slit her throat. Yes, And also I do think the murderer took out her larynx because she was a singer in the choir. That's what I think is significant about that is that she was a singer in the choir. And well, imagine, for example,

let's talk about the next one, Francis. Yeah, let's talk about the next one and then they will flesh this out, because I think we're all in agreement that Mr mills Is was kind of a bit of a patsy and no wonder he didn't get charged. Yeah he was. But but if you think about Francis, um, what would what would her grievances against eleanor Ben? She lured her husband away with number one, her beautiful face, which by the way, got three bullet holes in it. Yeah, and her lovely

voice saying in the choir. I mean that's how they kind of got drawn together, was she was sitting in the choir and so I could sort of see, you know, messing up her face and then cutting out of voice box. It's kind of a retribution. The other thing that I guess kind of makes me think that it probably was more on Francis is that also, um, his face was

covered after he was killed. And I think the psychology behind killing somebody that you've loved, regardless of if they had a great relationship or not, somebody you've been with for a long time, you might cover their face. You don't have to look at it, so you don't have to see their dead face, so that face was covered, and then the competitor was mutilated and left uncomed and left uncovered and kind of out to waste, so I

think by the animals. Yeah, and that then again, that's that other side of that power dynamic that I was talking about before, or which is with Mr Mills, he's taking it out on her because she's betrayed him. For Mrs Hall or Hill gonna keep I almost had it. They sounds so similar. So for Mrs Hall, she's going to be taking out her anger on the woman because again this is that weird dynamic of she's to blame. My husband's an idiot, but it's her fault. And then

well there's also a jealousy component. There's a whole bunch packed into that that we could spend a long time unpacked that we shouldn't because we are not professional, probably just sound profiling. But yeah, that's why Frances is one of my more favorite suspects in this in this case, so I would agree with that, But I also don't necessarily think that she did it herself. It's entirely possible that somebody she knew maybe did it, or somebody she

hired maybe she could have hired it done. It's entirely possible. And the theory I've had, and this kind of fits with these, with the whole physical evidence, was what's that there was somebody else's competitor of Eleanor in the church who also had the hots for the reverend and who maybe perhaps wasn't quite as pretty and wasn't I didn't have a good enough voice to get into the choir. Too many, you're adding too many elements of that story, Joe.

It could have been somebody who was a member of the congregation who simply did not think that what they were doing was the right thing. I can boil it down to something because much simpler, and it is you. I think I said something like this before. But you know, you're in the face of God, you're doing this, and you're a reverend. This is not okay and you need to be taught a lesson. Yeah, I could totally say that.

I you know, since we did mention that Eleanor was much better looking than Francis, I will just go ahead and say turn about his fair play and that, like I've seen pictures of the referend, he's not a looker. Balding and like shovy and he's thought like a double chin, And like just the fact that we have these theories where it's like maybe there were five women fighting over him. It's like, what, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that it's a man or a woman that's a part

of the congregation. I'm saying that this is a person who's trying to defend the fate. I just still, you know, it's kind of like, well, yeah, yeah, I don't know, do you have any more theories? And I was I was wondering. I kind of considered the possibility that perhaps Frances wasn't actually directly involved. It might have been her

brothers who did it. I guess there's some room for if the brothers were seeing that she was being so know that she was being so disrespectful, disrespected, if the whole congregation knew that this reverend was cheating on her, and so in the public eye, even people were kind of giggling behind it, behind her back, about it, behind her back, behind she knew about it, though, I would presume, I mean, she initially said she didn't know about it,

but later statements seems to support the fact that yeah, just like everybody else she knew. Yeah, it's prudent if somebody says, hey, your husband and his lover were found dead, did you know he had a lover. I'm not going to discribe. I don't think anybody in their right mind would be like absolutely, I knew I would lie. Yeah, I would say no, I had no idea what. I'm horrified. I'm horrified he's dead. And also I'm horrified he had a lover. I know he was having sex with a woman.

I thought he was gay. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have you have your book out? Though? I was letting Joe finish his last Yeah. Now the brothers, I mean again the same thing. I mean, the lack of evidence and everything else. I could totally see that they had a bit of a motive, you know, avenging their sister. It might be that again back to my theory about you know, if they had talk with her and she was going on and crying and crying and

crying about oh my god, she's got these things. He's got this pretty face and this wonderful voice I have and I never will, you know, And so that I could totally see that the brother that lived with them. His fingerprint was found on the card, on the calling card. Yeah, but that's that's not that doesn't say anything because they lived in the same house and the calling card could have he could have it could have been out of the pocket dozens of time. It doesn't point to anything,

but it is one thing that you will see. And her brother's fingerprint was um yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, good luck at a conviction. But yeah, yeah, obviously it didn't work. Yeah, yeah, no, they all went free. And yeah, the pig lady I think went on to reward. I don't think she survived about with cancer alas. Yeah, that did kind of do her in unfortunately. Yeah. So there's one thing that I have that you've left out that I kept wondering about, and that was Schneider and Bombers,

the couple that found the body. We've talked about this before. Leads you to the body. They they had some weird stuff going on because the night before the bodies were found, they were seen heading that direction though they were having an argument. She said or he said, so this is Raymonds said that he saw his girlfriend Pearl with several other men in that area, one of whom it is supposedly was her father. His name is Clifford Hayes. So

there's there's this there they were in the area. Hayes, I believe it is is the one who had a gun, so he actually had a gun. There's all these there was um she got locked up for a while for what sounds like contempt of court, and then her father got locked up for a while under charges of incest, and the boyfriend got if he didn't get locked up, he almost got locked up one time. So this is part of the reason that they were never actually brought to the stand at the trial, because they were very

questionable uh witnesses. But at the same time, if they were in the area, it seems that they may have had the means to commit this murder. The set of murders, Now, what was their motive, I don't know, or maybe there wasn't. It might have been kind of one of those thrill kill situations. But they they are totally a set of suspects, and because they were discounted and pushed out of the story pretty quickly. It's one of those ones that I can't help but always wonder about. Have a theory. Okay,

do you know how old. The um the father was the well, she was fifteen. I'm going to guess the father was in his thirties to early for those days, so it could have been, like I'm starting to suspect that maybe it's a case of mistaken identity to men that they were out and he was like, I see you with your dad all the time, and she's like, no, it's not my end. He's like, look, there's your dad there and shoots him and it turns out actually, oops,

it's the referend. And this whole time, Eleanor is like, oh my, you killed him? What is going on? And then obviously they have to kill her because they're questionable because it's a crazy scenario, right because it right well or not or you know that happens later, you know, one of them slits her throat. I don't know. I mean, there's possibility that was total case of mistaken identity that he thought it was the father at first, and then

they just had to cover their tracks. Actually, the throat slitting was because she refused to die because they were shot with a thirty two. Uh, there were a lot of thirty two revolves, like five shot thirty two revolvers and circulation. Back in those days, you were very small, handy, little pocket guns. So one shot goes into the reverend's head and it kills him. Three shots go into her head, and believe me, thirty two, and the thirty two was

in anemic little round. It's entirely conceivable that somebody could get shot three times with the thirty two and still not be totally dead. Well, especially if it was the right parts of the brain, which she got shot in some weird spots, so they could have the one below her eye socket could have just gone into her the base of her skull and her neck and done damage. The one that went in above her eye should have done her in, but maybe not, maybe not. People survived

some instantly fatal. Yeah. Now the thirty two is, like I said, an anemic enough little round. And again, back in those days, they didn't have jacketed bullets so much. It would have been just a lead bullet. So it's entirely possible if the heavy the heavy plaiting in your forehead could actually keep it from penetrating into your brain pan. And it was a five shot most likely that was

typical for those little pocket revolvers. It might have been a misfire on the last one or whatever, or they just didn't they heck with it and just cut her throat because she's not dying, so let's cut her throat. Job. Yeah, and yeah, maybe and maybe she was making noise, so they decided to you know, it's crazy scenario, Why I'll go with it. She was making noise, So they were like, we'll take that, thank you, and then posed them and then walked away, and then you know, a couple of

days later. Yeah, I mean, there's there's a whole bunch of scenarios that could go on there, and I and Joe brings up really good points about the actual weapon that's used, so it kind of maybe adds some whether it's these two or three or any of the others, kind of explains like maybe why the throat was actually cut. It's one possibility for it. Yeah, but as far as there isn't. These two that found the bodies were a little questionable characters, but I don't know, and maybe they're

just dumb. But for me, if I had committed a murder, I would stay the hell away from the murdercy and I wouldn't come wandering back and go, oh, look, somebodies, let's go to the police. So many times have we seen that, We're like the smart killer would stay away, and instead it turns out it's really dumb killers, like, hey, look at this, I found a body, and some of

them just can't resist that. For me, I don't know, For whatever reason, always seems like something that people who are pathological about killing do less than people who like accidentally might have come If it's okay, I think that we've we've beaten this one almost completely into the ground. All I'm going to say is that if these two or three folks were to do a very impulsive set of murders, then it would not be beyond them to have the to be impulsive enough to say, let's find

him too. Yeah. No, I know it's entirely possible. That's just their egos wanted. They just wanted to be involved in this story, you know, And it happens a lot with a problem. Dot Com is so freaking big, you know. I know, that's why you get these killers to try to insert themselves into the investigation. That happens a lot. And that's why if I do that, if I kill anybody, which I'm not applying I'm doing, but I'm gonna stay the hell away. We know, hy, you guys got any

more theories? All right, let's do a little housekeeping here. Let's you guys probably want to know if we have one of those website things. Yes, we do. Actually, it turns out which is got It's called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. And you can go out and download episodes or listen to them right there and there, and there's all kinds of other cool stuff there too. We've gotten merched. There's links to Zazelin Red Bubble, you can you can get shirts, mugs, stickers, and all kinds of stuff that

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a lot of fun than it. Uh. And we are on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways. Yeah, and yeah, and so yeah, we twit a lot. Uh. And subreddit, we are thinking sideways of course. Uh. In our little subreddit, there's some activity. What's going on our subread these days stuff. There's actually a lot of emails coming through from conversations and stuff, so it's been pretty busy. Yeah yeah uh. And then last of all, if you'd like to contact

us for any reason. You want to suggest a cool story, a great mystery, or you want to like complain, or you want to tell us, especially me, how awesome we are. Yeah, we like that. Uh, so send us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. And uh, alright, so so much for all that stuff. Any final thoughts before we stick a fork in it? No, yeah, no, but I got this really cool piece of cherry tree crab I want to show. Yeah, great grandpa gave me this. Yeah,

I know. I got a piece of wood from my great grandpa too, and it's a treasured heirloom. Alright, so chat everybody. We will see you next week. Bye bye, bye, guys,