Thinking Sideways: Dr. Bogle and Mrs. Chandler

super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry, just in case somebody you know, five years from now, I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen. This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, Thinking Sideways. I don't understand. You never know stories of things we don't know the answer too. Well. Hey, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. The podcast. I'm Steve as always, joined by Devin Joe, and once

again we get to tackle a mystery. It's a big on this one, it is, and once again it's we do this every now and again it's time for us to take on a story that's big enough that we've got to take it on as a team. Yeah, so this is one of our big shows, So be prepared. This one's going to go on for a while because there's a lot, a lot of details and intrigue and just kind of unusual things are unexpected things, despite what the Wikipedia page will tell you about this mystery. And yeah,

somebody vandalized Wikipedia. Actually no, I figured out what the problem was. It was I didn't know how to use Wikipedia. Okay, And one quick note to our listeners before we get into the mystery. This story does acknowledge the existence of sex and some per marital decisions that revolve around that. So if the kids are in the room and you're listening and you're not quite sure you want them to to hear some of this, you might want to pause this one and listen to it later on your own.

The story that we are going to tackle is going to be the unsolved deaths of Dr Gilbert Bogel and Mrs Margaret Chandler. And there are two people who died for unknown reasons in Australia sometime in the early hours of New Year's Day, well at five am and seven am, respectively. But okay, well, well yeah, thanks for killing the mystery

all right. Before we begin, I do have to send out a huge thank you to Elena, who sent this story to us and then pointed us to a ton of resources kind of made this one happen for us to be quite yeah, it was again, thank you. Let's begin with the story. On New Year's Day three, somewhere around nine am, two teenage boys were walking along a path that runs along the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia.

They came upon a man keeps laying off of the main path, and from the accounts that I've seen, they when they first saw him, they figured he was drunk. Yeah, that's everything. That's the one that I've heard the most. This This dude was just laying there. It's New Year's morning, he's drunk. But it wasn't until they came back down that path and saw him still there that they noticed that his face had changed color and they realized that he was probably dead and they ran for help. Yeah,

I heard that. They said. They walked past him, and then a couple hours later they came back and he literally had not moved at all and they thought, huh this it's kind of weird though, I mean, in that two hours, nobody else walked by him. I mean it's New Year's morning. Joe hungover exact or asleep. I'm suspecting that's what killed these two. Hangover. The hangover. I've had some killer hangovers, but not that bad. The man was thirty eight year old doctor Vogel, and he was laying

face down, half undressed. Someone had he wasn't wearing his pants. Someone had taken his pants and laid them across his legs and his backside, so that from a given distance it looked like he was wearing pants. Yeah, and his underwear wasn't there, right, This is a fun fact of that. I discovered his underwear was not there, but a pair of ladies underwear was very close by to him, like Selt panties, very close by. Yes, yeah, so ladies panties.

No further explained, Yes, give me just a moment. The tease. There was also, just so everybody knows, a square of carpet laid on his back, which was later discovered to have been something that was in his cart. When the police arrived, as they will do when someone finds a dead body. They searched the area and they found a second body, which was twenty eight year old Margaret Chandler forty ft away, and she had a pair of men's briefs in between her legs. That's true, she did. She did.

She as Devin was kind of getting too, had some strange clothes. She was also partially undressed, but she was in a bit of a depression and had flattened beer boxes laid over her, which is an unusual place to be, especially when you're dead. But it's it's unclear to this day who covered the bodies. Was it one person covered the other, who did some other person? We don't know that well. I think we might get into some of that later on, but just to say, on the outset,

we don't know how they got covered up. There were no obvious signs of damage to the body, and by that I mean no obvious trauma. They hadn't been, you know, sholing in pools of blood exactly. There was um some evidence, what's the best way to say this, There was evidence that they had been violently ill before they died. There was vomit and feces both around the bodies and in the area around them. So, yeah, I read that. It's interesting.

Actually I read that there was a small amount of vomit found near Dr Bogel, like twelve ft away or no, twelve inches I'm sorry, twelve inches, not twelve ft that's really far away. That's projectile. Yeah, so that that's interesting that they are also differing accounts of that. Yeah, and there's there's some issues with this story because it's been it's been rehashed a lot, and will talk about some

of that. But there was feces everywhere. Yeah, they were obvious given and I mean typically when you die, people usually let go. Yeah, but it was more than that. They were actually running around and carpet in the area. Actually, I don't think it was next to their bodies at all. There was some down by the river bank and there was some a bit of a trail, let's put it that way. They marked where they had been. Regardless, it's

not a nice way to go. But this this led the police immediately to suspect that in some way they had been poisoned, but they had no idea how or what with the official cause of death for both of these individuals was listed as acute circulatory failure. But how or why was never specified. These two particular people who are on a river bank on New Year's Eve New Year's Morning together various states of undress, various states of undress, were married to different people. She was married to a

man by the name of Jeffrey Chandler. He his wife. Dr Bogel's wife was named Vivian Bogel. And I hope I'm saying, I believe it's Bogel. Is how you pronounced it. We're going to say it the whole. I hope it's not wrong, because otherwise we're gonna look silly. Yeah. But but regardless, it's it's pretty obvious that they were there for a midnight encounter of as another way to put it, what's that look it up on the internet, Joe. Okay,

let's give a little bit of backstory again. This is just kind of the beginning telling of it, and then we'll go into some details. Both of these individuals Dr. Bogel Miss Chandler had attended a New Year's Eve party on the night of their deaths, which was hosted by another couple by the name of Ken and Ruth Nash.

Dr Bogel attended the party on his own. His wife stayed home to take care of their three chill written Mrs Chandler attended the party with her husband, Jeffrey, though he had left the party around eleven thirty that night. One odd fact about the party, and I think this is the nashest way of trying to mix things up and make it interesting. They were super interesting people, those

they were. But you'll see this when you come across this case, especially if you do Google images or image searches in general, is that what they told their guess was that they wanted them to bring a piece of art that they had created themselves to the party to display for everybody to talk about. Dr Bogel brought drawing, which it's it's really kind of strange and honestly, it's weird. Let's just call it weird. It's a disembodied hand in one corner and a disembodied foot in the other corner,

with a woman's face that points in two directions. If you ever seen some of those profile images where it looks like it's a face looking at you and and to the side, that's what it is. It's it's kind of got a modernist feel to it, and it made me think of the art that you'll see. There's a Russian Russian artist by the name of Alexander roj Tinko. Is it Rodchenko? I really feel bad for all of the art classes I've taken. I suddenly can't remember how

to pronounce this guy's name. Regardless, it looks like work from both of those. So it's it's it's unusual. I don't know a better way to describe it. Well, you can describe it by the fact that everybody said that it was created while he was high on LSD. I mean, that's true, right, people people have speculated that that's how he made it, and the LSD is relevant to what

we're talking about, which is the party. Because this story gets covered a lot by the media, the newspaper papers specifically at the time, it was a huge source of headlines, and they were not afraid to insert and exaggerate and come up with theories and just proffer them to postulate that they were the actual thing. One of the things that the news said, or these papers said, I should say,

is that the party was some kind of LSD fueled orgy. Yeah, yeah, it's it's a bit absurd and from everything that I've read, and actually what was going on. Yeah, it was kind of a lame party really from what I've heard. Yeah, well yeah, next I'm telling to bring booze paintings. Well, I I remember there was something about Mr Nash saying

that he didn't give anybody more than two drinks. Yeah, he was dispensing quote unquote that's the term they used, is he was dispensing the drinks and he would only give people, according to at least one account that I read, that he would only give people, uh two drinks maximum. So a very sober affair. But well, let's get back to our our case in point here, which is these folks at some point in the nine Chandler not the Nashes,

thank you. Uh, they were observed outside in the backyard together described in and you'll you'll see this in two different ways, either in a close conversation or kissing. Not really sure. Actually, uh you know they that's not the first night they met. It's very true. They Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler had met at a holiday Christmas barbecue.

It's Australia. Remember it's Australia, so it's summer during Christmas, so they were having a Christmas kind of Hawaiian barbecue, another one of the co workers of Mr Chandler and Dr Bogel. And in fact, it was reported by at least one person who will talk about later, that the couple Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler had been seen canoodling

perhaps that night, even intimate conversation. Well, and I don't I think it was actually accusation, was in fact that they had been making out or maybe like had a low romp in the bushes on that night, even the first night that they met. So that's worth mentioning. Is it is? It is back to the New Year's Eve party. The witness accounts say that the pair left the party together between two to three am, and the accounts very a little bit on the time, which isn't surprising. It's

the middle of the night. Uh. It's important to point out that Jeffrey Chandler, if you remember earlier I had said he had left the party, he came back and he because he had gone to a different party to have drinks where you could get more than two. But he did come back to the party and had a conversation with his wife, and when he found out that Margaret wanted to not get a ride home from him, but from Dr Bogel. It wasn't really all that worried

about it. He didn't care. The account that I heard was that while Mr Chandler was gone, Dr Bogel I keep wanting her for them as their first in their first names, they called Dr Bogel Gibby, right, and her name was Margaret. So given GiB had offered to give Margaret a ride home because she didn't really know where her husband had gone off to. And apparently when Mr Chandler Jeffrey came back, he said, oh, are you ready

to go, Margaret? And she made no move to go, and she was sitting right next to gibb and so Jeffrey looked at GiB and said, so will you take Margaret home? And GiB just kind of looked at him and squinted his eyes for a second and then said right. And then Jeffrey laughed like that That was how that happened. Was just so weird. And we're going to get into some of the stuff about what, you know, the background on these folks people. Yeah, but the point is he

left the party and he went about his way. He wasn't concerned that was going to give Margaret right home. Yeah, yeah, more than that. This case itself was the biggest case to date for Sydney, and the police immediately went to work on it. They were reviewing all the evidence. They were trying to hunt down any bit of any lead, any bit of information that might possibly tell them what was going on. A lot of man hours were spent on this case. Like we talked about before, it's we

the newspapers. They went crazy. They polluted this story badly. I don't know if either of you did this. I read some of the old newspapers. Can find them on online. Yeah, I have a favorite website about this case and it references at every point what the media was saying, which is very helpful and very bad because they just misconstrue a lot of things. I mean, it really hasn't changed either. They're just about as bad today. And we've had this

conversation before. But but let's let's go ahead, and first off, let's talk about our three main players in this story. Yeah, okay, my turn. I'm going to talk about Dr bog Dr bogelh. So he's a major player in the mystery, though it doesn't actually say very much he was. His full name was Gilbert Stanley Bogle. He was born in New Zealand January.

He studied physics in Britain under a Rhodes scholarship. He met and married Actually I don't know if he met her in nineteen fifty, but he married Vivian in nineteen fifty. They had three children and also a fourth after his death, and by accounts he was a good family man, except for his philandering, which apparently he did a lot of. Yeah, so I guess you can't really say give percent marks

on that one. But Frank, yeah, but freends said that he was interesting, wickedly smart, uh fun um well, rounded into a whole lot of different activities and it's kind of an awesome guy. Yeah, they thought that. People thought it was pretty cool. So he moved back to New Zealand in nineteen fifty two with his family and got a university job teaching and researching in physics, which was

his field. And then in nineteen fifty six he took a job in Australia with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Search Organization, which I'm going to call CIERO from now on, the c s i r O, because we're going to talk about that a number of times. Yeah, it's much easier to do. Yeah. CICERO is Australia's National science agency and so they actually cover a lot of different fields of science. He got a three year appointment which began

September fifty six. He started working in the cryogenics group. By by about a year later, he had been given an indefinite appointment because apparently his his chief of his division liked him so much and found him noteworthy. Was a quote. He was noteworthy for his mental powers, his breath of breadth of knowledge, has capacity for original ideas, his driving enthusiasms, range of experimental techniques, and his outstanding ability as a lecturer. Now, so this guy really liked Bogel, Yeah,

he did. His name was Briggs, and he encouraged Bogel to resume his research on paramagnetic residence, which I'm not really sure that that is, and I was too lazy to look it up. It so I'm it's using radio waves and magnets as weapons. Is that the mazer? Maybe? Well, there there's talk about one point. I think maybe that's how you generate the masers are like lasers but with microwaves. Yeah, coherent The lasers, as you know, is coherent light, right

I do. Now, yeah, all a little folks, all a little photons are moving in the same direction, whereas the life from the light bulb up there in the ceiling they're just like you know, stuck on scattering everywhere. The lasers they have their coherent light and then they're all

move in the same direction. So yeah, it's I guess the point of the whole thing is that Dr Bogel was working on what could be considered or was encouraged to work on what could be considered for warfare and death rays and weird mad scientists stuff that's freaking cool grand side right, you know. Actually, and I checked and in an alternate time, and he actually didn't die, and he invented the warp drive in ninety seven, and then yeah, you're already wanted to get off. Yeah, Briggs, his chief

recommended him for accelerated advancement. He drew attention to the fact that he'd done all this work on the recent development of the maser, which is like a lazer, like I said, uh, and his uh, his theoretic practical contribution to this development of this and apparently was developed for use in radio astronomy was apparently pretty large. Boo was a smart guy. Actually, I gotta say it's too bad he died, you know, because it was a crazy smart guy.

Oh yeah, it was a really smart guy. Um so his chief in nineteen sixty two called him quote the most brilliant member of the staff. For a while. He must have been off the chart smart. Vogo was offered a two year appointment in quantum electronics at Bell Laboratories in the US UH and he really wanted to take the job. Cicero granted will leave the absence to take the job, and apparently he was. People said he was very excited about going to work in America at Bell Labs.

In fact, that was one of the reasons that the Nash has had thrown that party, if I remember correctly, was that or the barbecue party? One of them was part holiday party, part going away party for Yeah, you're right, I can't remember. He was to leave within I think the month. I think maybe even within a couple of weeks, so it was not far it was not far away. Yeah, but yeah, I just really kind of sad this guy

died because yeah, who knows what he would have accomplished. Yeah, so you want to talk about miss Chandler Margaret for a minute. Yeah, let's talking about Wait a minute, got to talk about his hobbies and his turn on. No, this isn't a dating site, Mrs Chandler, Margaret Chandler. She was twenty years old at the time of her death, and there's not a whole lot out there on Mrs Chandler. I'll be honest with you. I don't get the impression that she was a particularly interesting human being. I just

don't have that impression. I think guys were interested in her. Yeah, I think she was kind of She didn't have a whole lot of external pursuits. But I think that you also need to keep in mind is that she had two small kids at the time. Yeah, she did. She She and Mr Chandler had two small children. They were aged two and eighteen months, and they had left them with them with her with her mother and father in law that night. She and her husband shared a love

of vintage cars and docks and dogs. Like how boring. Come on. The weird thing is okay, I don't mean interrupt you here, but the weird thing about that is she liked vintage cars and docks. Sin's. Maybe that's because her husband really liked both of those things, and so she went along with it. So there's all these pictures of her in vintage cars because he's like, honey, get in there, let me take your picture, like you dog

take your picture. Yeah, it seemed that she was the kind of person that didn't have a whole lot of going on for herself. She seemed to have been at least moderately intelligent. I think she probably was likely quite intelligent. She just kind of seemed boring, like she just kind of adopted everybody else's stuff. She seemed to be pretty reserved. Yeah.

They talked about how Mr Chandler was kind of tall and outgoing, and he had this huge red beard and stood out in a room, and she, by contrast, was this kind of meek creature just at his side. It seemed that they were on the same kind of page about the way that their marriage should go. And that is to say that monogamy seemed to not have been for either of them. I don't know that she was as okay with that as her husband, but she ended up going along with She did have more than just

give as a lover. She had had lovers previous to that, so I don't know what that necessarily means, but it does implicate to me that she was at least kind of okay with it, given it a shot. And apparently Jeffrey had been pretty absent from his wife's life for most of nineteen sixty two. He chose to spend his time kind of more with friends instead of his wife and two young sons. Also had a girlfriend named Pam. Never have a girlfriend name when you're married. That just

never goes well. Yeah, Apparently after that holiday barbecue that we were talking about earlier, Margaret said to her husband that she'd like to sleep with Dr Bogel, and Jeffrey later recounted she had quote put it in the same sort of way that one might describe a Rolls Royce car has like a fleeting interest of having sex with this man. Essentially, Yeah, I think that was that was sort of the The sense that I got was that Mr Chandler said, well, if you'd like to sleep with Gibb,

then you should. I'm for it, and that, you know, you get the failure that Dr Handler had fallen out of love with his wife. Mr Chandler, he was not a doctor. Okay, was a doctor. Chandler was not. I do have the sense he was kind of an interesting guy too. I don't know necessarily what attracted him to Mrs Chandler. I don't know if it was just that it was convenient. Maybe he knocked her up and they got married. I don't know. I can't remember what the

circumstances were. It was just hell, let's let's talk about Jeffrey. Sure, yeah, oh, just had the fun well by note, you know how everybody knows like twenty Jessica's. Uh, there were five Margaret's at the New Year's party that they attended at the at Kennon Ruth Nash's house. There were five different Margarets. And I bet there are only like seven people there because they only served two drinks. Yeah, yeah, they were like twenty people there, Margaret. Yeah, Well, let's uh, let's

talk about Jeffrey Chandler. Jeffrey Chandler also worked at the C S I R O or Cicero is Joe is putting it, which I'm going to keep using. But he worked there as a research scientist, and he actually did work in the same building as Dr Bogel. The two were they were work compatriots. They had worked together, not only just seen each other in the building before, but evidently they had worked together on at least one experiment.

I believe it's only one experiment, but never really hung out in the same social circles, because jeff he Jeffrey, he hung out in a very specific sect. He did. He did. But let's let's keep going here. Chandler, Jeffrey Chandler was of course, as we said earlier, and immediate suspect, and of course the press and the police went after him really hard. And actually, in cases like this, let's see had probably the husband is always is the first one that's going to get attacked. I mean, this is

standard protocol. I'm not knocking anyone for this, well, I'm not. I would dr press people that aside. They went after his lifestyles, his beliefs, and in the end, his desire to avoid the press didn't help him out at all. These are some of the things that don't help him. Jeffrey was a member of the Communist Party, would got him at a little bit of bad press. He also, as it turned out, had been working for the A. S I O, which is the Australian Security Intelligence Organization.

I never got a clear bead on this, but from what I understand, what he was doing is the s i OH was trying to get him to provide information on the commun in his party. One of the things he did, he's trying to host meetings at places and try to bug the place for them. He bungled this badly. So you try to do this was Is it possible that Mr Chandler was not actually a sincere Communist and then he just basically infiltered the infiltrated the organization. I

don't believe. So. I think that he agreed with things that were in the party from what I understand, But there's a bad thing about that. And the problem is is that he went ahead and signed up with the Communist Party. At that time, it was a bad thing. And to be a government employee, you could not be affiliated with with that party at counties if you're potentially I'm not I'm not sure. I'm sure. At least some

of Cicero's projects were classified. Of course, yeah, and so yeah, definitely there's a good reason for that, Yes there is, But he was he while he might have been a member, he wasn't a you know, book thumping card carrying scream at the masses member. He just kind of liked their ideals, I think. But the problem was is that the a s I oh, they from what I've read, came at him and said, listen, you worked for us, or we're

breaking the news and you're losing your job. And by the way, once you get blackballed from this job, you're never working in this country again. So of course he went along with him. Good idea. Yeah. Oh, and I briefly mentioned there in the list of things that people went kind of crazy about for him, was one of him was his lifestyle. Yeah, because it was kind of a swinger. He totally was a swinger. He he believed in sleeping with multiple women, and he did so, as

we've already talked about while he was married to Mrs Chandler. Yeah, that's that fine line of swinging versus cheating. Right, it's swinging if you're like, hey, babe, you should do this too, right, and cheating line nobody knows as you you twist the mustache and have the wink. She knew. He made no

bones about it. He was very open with her. And I get the impression that for about the first year two of their relationship, I think he was faithful and then he began to stray again, but didn't make any bones about it, just said, Hey, I'm interested in this woman and I'm going to go sleep with her. And she Yeah, she was a little passive. Yea, she was

a little passive. Then. I've always I've noticed that I've known a few people that were in open relationships, and I've always noticed that one partner was always much more okay with it than the other. Yes, And in fairness, that doesn't always happen always. There's that's certainly a level of consent that some people have, but often often it is that way. But like I said, he kept it no secret. But the problem was is that that lifestyle

was highly frowned. Yeah, we're talking in the nineteen sixties. Yes, so this I don't think people are into the swinger thing these days. Well, I think the seventies and the eighties were kind of the high point for swingers. But late fifties, early sixties there's kind of the bohemian scene going on, which Jeffrey Chandler was involved with. So there was some uprising of it then, But as a general

societal norm. Yeah, let's talk about it. We can a little bit to give a frame of reference here, Ruth Nash was outraged the night of their party because neither of the Chandlers had come by to say goodbye and thank you. She was our She talked about that even after she knew that there was a little bit impolite that that um that Margaret was dead. You know, she knew. She was outraged, and the fact that Jeffrey had shown

up in like a Hawaiian shirt. He had shown up in casual clothes and he was supposed to be wearing a suit, and she was outraged at too. And so's that sort of society at least surrounding them a little bit for the most part, to give it a little bit of a frame of reference. I guess, Oh, no, wonder we left the party. Yeah, no, this party was not his speed at all. We talked about a little bit earlier that he left. What he did is he went to another party where the Nashes were too stuffy.

He went to another party where he met up with Pam Logan, who was the woman that he had been having a relationship with. I believe they also worked together I'm not positive that they were co workers, but I do know that they were lovers. They had left the party that they were at together, gone back to her flat. Then when they were done doing what When they were done, he left and he went back to the Nash's party

to find his wife. He was gone from that party for a good two to three hours when he finally came back. And we had said this earlier. Is that she said, no, I I want to I want to leave with Dr Bogel. He wasn't worried, and he had been, from his own accounts, encouraging her for quite some time to take a lover. And of course Bogel wasn't the first one, but he does there there are many accounts from him, And just so people don't get the wrong idea about Jeffrey Chandler, it's not as if he just

said oh okay and beat feet and left. He went outside. He wasn't sure if she was really serious. He went out, he got in the car, He sat there for the amount of time that it took him to smoke the half a cigarette he evidently had sitting in the ash tray before he left. And he's actually said a number of times said he regrets not getting out of the car and walking back into the house and say no, you should come home with me. Yeah. He also has

said that he thought she wasn't serious. He thought at any minute she would actually decide, Oh no, just kidding, I do want to go home with you, And so that's why he hung around so long. From that point, his actions for the night are pretty well documented. He left the party, he went back to Pam's house, He got Pam, got her in the car, they went to

his parents house to collect his children. Talk about awkward showing up at three or four in the morning with your girlfriend while your wife is somewhere else to pick up your children. That they didn't seem to mind. I don't know that that's true. But I also think that he left her in the car. She wasn't happy about the whole thing either. To be roused it out at three, four four in the morning to take a row with this guy, I thought it was more like five. I

thought they were. They went and hung out at Pam's house for a little while. Then they went to go pick up the kids. And I don't recollect the exact time. Like an early morning pick up, it may very well have been. But he went and got his kids, brought her, dropped her off at her house. No, did they go back to They all went back to kids and all again weird. So he obviously went and got his kids. So it's it's hard to point a finger at what he was doing because his his actions and and his

trail seemed to be pretty easy to follow. Well, if you believe his girlfriend, Yeah, that very good point. His his his eyewitness, and this is also his girlfriend, so she has a bit of a reason to protect him. As we said before, Jeffrey Chandler prime suspect. The cops bring a case against him, the attorneys bring a case against him. It's a huge in quest. In the end, they don't have enough evidence and the case goes nowhere

and he is never convicted of a crime. He's also said that he actually wishes that they had just tried him, that he had gone to trial, and that he had been proven innocent, because he felt that being left kind of out in the dry, he was never really exonerated.

The media continued to say it was him. The whole thing was a bit of a circus because there were witnesses called that were stopped in the midst of their testimony so that they could protect The judge would say, no, we would like to protect the decency of this person. Do not answer that question. When had got into graphic, gratuitous sexual information, they would stop him. So there were there were people who some of these people will talk about later, who were going to be on the stand

and the judge dismissed for those kind of reasons. So a lot of stuff didn't didn't just get brought out into the open, And you're right, it kind of hosed him in the end. Yeah, but he got a he got a book out of the deal, right, he did. He did write, Yeah, he did. I would imagine that. It's pretty hard. It's called so you think I did it? I'm not. That's not a lie, So I think I did it. Every time I think about that title, it just kind of makes me gugle because it's kind of

a silly title. That's a passive aggression. Oh so you think I did it? Yeah, so screw you. Let's get into theories. Now that we've kind of given the basic about the case and the people, let's dive into some details. Okay, well, okay, we're talking about theories. So I'm going to lead off of one of my favorites was espionage cloak and dagger stuff.

But it really has seemed that when everybody's turned up dead for known reasons, that the allegations of CIA or KHB involvement is usually not far behind as as opposed to bodies showing up alive. Got it, Yeah, it's it's when they're dead for unknown reasons. Yeah, there was one story, And I don't know the origins of any of these stories. They have been circulated so long, it's been so many decades that it's hard to say what the origins are.

But the one that got a little traction said that Bogil have been recommended by whom I don't know as an agent for for a s i OH, which we mentioned before. It's the Australian Security and Intelligence Office, so you know, their equivalent of the CIA. So he was recommended during the nineteen fifties. But whether he was actually recruited, I don't know, and I would suspect he was not recruited by s i OH because what was he doing

working in a lab for a s i OH. I suppose he could have been spying on some of his colleagues. But other than that, what was what possible value could he be to a s I Oh, I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to say. I know he was we talked a little bit that he was going to be heading to the States for a post in the States. But again, why would this, you know, why would they recruit him and then bring him to the States. It's it doesn't

make a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, and that really one and and this was remember in the nineteen fifties. Was supposedly he had been maybe possibly recruited long before he knew it was going to go to the States. Of course he could have been recruited by the KGB and some some allegations of that, of course, of course, yeah, Jeffrey Chandler, And of course he was probably willing the

point to figure at anybody other than himself. So he suggested that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler were murdered by the CIA, but with Chandler's being an unfortunate byproduct, Yeah, she was collateral damage. Yeah, but Boogel that apparently supported a recommendation by a doctor Clifford Dalton, who was a member of the Australian Energy Commission, and the recommendation was that a fast read a reactor that Dalton developed should not be sold to the US and the technology should

not be shared with the US. That's nuclear technology. Yeah, fast breeding reactors, fast breeder reactors. Yeah, yeah, just he always says stuff like that, right where he's like, yeah, you obviously know everything about that, so you must too, just no idea, Okay, yeah, I feel better. Yeah. Breeder reactors are one of those one of those dilios, you know, most most reactors create just waste, whereas these things are built to actually create things like plutonium. Yeah, that's one

of those things that we're not supposed to have. Yeah. Yeah. So it was believed, according to Chandler, that the killing was linked to his recommendation, but apparently it was a it was a revenge kind of thing, you know, they were they were angry and so they killed him. But of course that leaves the question was Dr Dalton who actually made the original recommendation. Was he killed too? I don't believe so. I don't think it was. And he was so the original center in this case, So that's

kind of weak. Tea Frankly another one who said he wasn't. He was involved, of course in research on mazers, which and some people claim that his research was actually top secret research. I don't. I've never really confirmed that. And he was due, of course to leave sister in a few weeks ago work in the USA Bell Labs, And of course Bell Labs does have some highly secret defense contracts. Whether Bogel was going to be actually, you know, in

on knows, I don't know. But he had been He had been checked by the FBI before he got the Bell job. He had to be cleared by them, and apparently they didn't have a problem with him. Another report suggests that he was bumped off by the KGB to stop his research. But again, why aren't scientists dropping white flies? Because I mean, even though Bogel was a very smart guy, and let's face it, you know, there were there were

other smart scientists as a group tend to be pretty intelligence. Yeah. Um. And another claim was that the CIA killed him because he was a cobl Asians who was selling secrets to the Soviets. So but yeah, and and again okay, so it was a double agent, so he was working for se O and the KGB. I don't know. And again, as always in this killing also Chandler was just collateral damage. She seems to be kind of collateral damage. And a lot of these yeah, and of course, yeah, this is

a cold war, there's lots of paranoida and conspiracy. Conspiracy theories were kind of rampant. Had another suggestion that somebody made god knows who, originally he was handing over his super secret agent role to Margaret Chandler. And the reason they went to the river it was to retrieve a hidden object at a quote drop that was under the water which could only be reached at low tide. That's dumb, it's dumb. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. She does no point

for her to be secret. She doesn't strike It doesn't strike me a secret agent of material. But anyway, in this theory that while they are busy retrieving this object whatever was, enemy agents appeared, stripped the naked, killed them by holding a poisonous substances over their faces, and then dropped their bodies, cover them up a little bit, and then made their get away. What's wait, wait, now he had that square of carpet, So what's the carpet got

to do with this? The carpet was just to you know, get down the river's edge, and I presumably they had to kneel down to reach down unto the water to get to this hidden object and this hidden drop. The carpet was just like to kneel on to walk on them. Although I guess it's it's possible that they were naked from the waist down because they were trying to protect

their clothes while they were kneeling in muddy, gross area. Yeah, the river was pretty pretty disgusting and polluted, so that's possible anyways, Sorry continuing, Yeah, no, I mean, there's there's validity to that, but I'm not going to buy into him. See how people could go for that. People like this kind of stuff. That's why it's popular. That doesn't matter if it's true or not. Why do you think so many spy books are written? Really? Yeah, not that many

good ones, unfortunately. Uh, let's see what else will we have here? There was in the nineteen eighties, journalists used the Freedom of Information Act in the US to get the classified documents which showed that j Edgar Hoover you guys probably know that name, right, India had discussed the case with the New South Wales police, and I'm not sure.

I mean that's I seem to recall hearing something about there was a little bit of cooperation because the FBI, of course has labs that can do we're very space getting analysis. So there's nothing necessarily sinister about cooperation between the New South Wales police and the FBI. Yeah. I

don't see anything hinky there. Uh. Some people have said the FBI may have conducted its own investigation in the murders, which I don't have any evidence for, and others have said that the US and Australian governments have been unusually secret about this case, and because because because they have no information about exactly, they had nothing to say about it.

I think, yeah, So no, there's you know, I don't think any of these theories, any these espionage FPI all that sum I don't think any of them really hold any water at all. I'm on the same page. So does anybody else have any any theories I want to share? You know? We do. We have another one, which is a little bit cookie, which is that it was a sex drug or some kind of fun drug whatever, a fun drug that they took themselves, that they took themselves

self administered that they overdosed on. Yeahs, yeah, I don't like if if it's going to make it more fun than have taking five times as much. Yeah, I guess that's not just Disclaimered. No, no, don't don't do that. It doesn't work. As we've talked about earlier, that the police had initially decided and come to the conclusion that they had been poisoned or they had potentially overdosed on a drug. Not an unreasonable no no, and especially when

there's no outward signs of trauma. And this this isn't a logical conclusion. This theory that the sex drug theory centers around the idea that they decided this the pair Dr Bogel and Mr Chandler Gibbon Margaret decided, Hey, let's take something to heighten the experience, to increase the fun, and just make this sexual experience out of this world. I know, I know. The problem is, of course that

there has been there not has been. There was extensive testing done the tissues taken from the bodies, and no substances were ever found, and I mean extensive. Every bit of usable tissue sample that was available was tested. I think the Corriner eventually ran out of tissue samples. Yeah, he did a lot of testing. He did a lot of testing it. I don't remember. Maybe one of you can help me out here. I think it's the liver and maybe another organ that they used. They did the liver.

I think they did some muscle tissue. I think they did you know, kind of the standard stuff that filters or holes onto some of that stuff. Yeah, but if you've got two people, that's a lot of samples. And I wonder how much they weighed when they were buried. Now I don't know, but they took a lot of samples and in the end they were all used up. There's been a lot, and I mean a lot of

speculation that the couple took LSD. The thing that you need to understand is that at this time LSD wasn't a popular drug in Australia and there wasn't a good known way to test for it. They didn't have a oh, well would run this test to see if you've been on LSD. That wasn't developed at that time. And it's also important to point out from the research that I've done, it's nearly impossible to overdose on LSD. Most folks that dive from taking the drug is not the drug itself,

but there's subsequent actions thereafter. Although it's it's probably worth mentioning that with all of these allegations of LSD, of the allegations that the LSD that they had taken had been made by Dr Bogel in their lab so it was impure, or or that it messed up someone, it may not have been pure lg D. Well, yeah, I mean actually typically LSD is usually cut with something, usually usually speed, to enhance the who listen to Jenny properties of it, because LSD is actually not a terribly who

llustinogenic drug. Yeah, yeah, I don't bet again, I I you know, I don't see well, yeah, regardless, I mean it's it's people die typically because of what they're doing, because whether they're on a good trip or a bad trip, they put themselves into a situation that is dangerous and they pay the price for that. So the the whole LSD sex drug fun time overdose, it's it's got some big holes in it. Yeah, O kind of I don't see anything to hear about marijuana overdose? Is it my turn? Cool?

My theory, My first theory is the jealous lover theory, which makes sense a little bit. There's been a lot of songs about jealous lovers, so I can see how that would be. There are three kind of main possibilities here. I'm gonna start with the dumbest one first. They're so One of the things we glossed over was this eyewitness

who was actually fairly important to the case, named Mr Shlis. So, how you would say that looks like jealous jealous Chalice, Chalice in the Palace Las anyway, however you say his name, Mr Halis actually saw he I'm going to talk about him in a more in a minute, but just trust me on this one. He's an eyewitness and he ad about the time that they placed the death of Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler Gibbon. Margaret saw a yellow quote yellow blondie haired man, that's what it said, fleeing across

the street. This path that he was driving on pretty dang close to where they ended up finding Margaret's body. I'm sure it wasn't just a jogger he was. The impression that I have is that it's just kind of a little there's the road and then there's a strip and then it's the river. So unless he like can run on top of water, because he darted across the road too towards the river, it's totally possible he was

a transient any of those things. Regardless, the speculation is that, oh maybe that was Margaret's not GiB lover and he was jealous and somehow knew where they were and somehow killed. It's dumb. Yeah, you're looking at me like it's done, because it's dumb. I'm just I'm just saying things that I've seen an app on the Yellow Blonde here. No, he did not know. Next up is Margaret Fowler. She was one of gibbs lovers. They had been seeing each other for a while. Actually, I think it was like

more than three years something like that. Yeah. He she she worked at Cicero with Dr Bogel and he tried to break it off a couple of times, and she said she would say things like I'll die if you do. She also told the police during the investigation that that she was going to move to America with Dr Bogel with Jip Gibb and they were going to get a flat together, that that was what was happening. She was going to go to New York with him when he left for America. No, I thought he was going to

take his family with him. No, well that's not what she said. That's not what Mrs Margaret Fowler said. Just say she was thinking about all we've all seen those stories of the mistress. He said this, and he loves this, and he just he can't quite leave them yet. But we're making plans like that. That's what that sounds like to me. There are two main things here. The theory goes that Mrs Fowler Margaret Flower, as I said, there's lots of Margarets in this story. She wasn't even at

the New Year's party. She's not part of the five people that NI were named Margaret at the New Year's party. She wasn't even invited to that. The theory is that she somehow knew where they were going to be and maybe follow them from the party, or maybe that was Gibbs lovers Lane place of choice and somehow, yeah, where she overpowered both of them and murdered them somehow. It's not great. The only thing that does add a little credence to this theory is a man was interviewed later

named Mr. Carlson Carlton. Mr Carlton, sorry, and he said the he saw Margaret Fowler a couple of days after the murder, before it was huge news, before it had really broken. Yeah, and she said, oh, they're dead and Mr Carlton said who, And she said these two people, Margaret and Gibb. And then she kept repeating, uh, they were going to cop out and it's all going to come out, and was talking about chemical warfare and things like that. She's kind of crazy. She seems super crazy.

Anything she did seem unstable, but it is worth mentioning. I think that she did kind of implicate herself to at least one witness, saying they were gonna, you know there, it's all gonna come out, it's all going to come out, and that Margaret and Gibb were somehow working together on chemical warfare and they were going to release it and that's why they were murdered. I'm going to say right now, I I can see that being as simple as it's all going to come out. Our relationship on the download,

relationship is gonna come out. But then within a couple of weeks she had no problem talking about the relationship, no problem she's also one of the witnesses if I remember correctly, that never actually testified at the end quest and because of the morality reason, and she was married also right, yes, but she was also the one who said that she saw Gibb and Margaret getting busy in the bushes at the Christmas party. She was barbecue. Yeah,

the barbecue, Okay, worth mentioning. Why because so much of a thing. I have no idea. Another player that we haven't really discussed yet is Ken Nash, the host of the party, the New Year's party. As we said, he was the one dispensing drinks the whole night, and as it turns out, he was mildly obsessed with this case and killed himself thirteen years give or take a day to the day a actor, Margaret and Gibb had been

found dead. But although there's another significant anniverse, also worth mentioning is that, you know, honor about that day two years prior, his wife Ruth had died of cancer, So take that with a grain of salt. But since he was the one dispensing drinks, he could have easily slipped the pair something. It's it's thought that, uh, you know, he could have done that and it may have been a prank, but also maybe he was in love with

Margaret too, who knows her? So we killed her and Gibb. Uh, well Gibble was Gibb was known to his friends is a bit of a prankster. So I can see that. I can see where this This has some traction. Is well, GiB played a prank on him at work, and he thought, well, I'll get him, and oh he's hanging out with Margaret. Well, oh well she's there too. I'll put it in both thereuse that explains a lot. Actually, he slipped laxatives into both their drinks because all the feces. But it wouldn't

kill them that fast, but they were they were tainted. Okay, Yeah, I guess from worth noting is that it does seem like Ken Nash was kind of a boring dude. So I don't know why he would suddenly think I I'll prank him, that'll be fun. He seemed really boring. He would only want to give people to drinks. He's a square, was a square. Why would he be suddenly doing that that that doesn't fit with his personality profile. Well, he might consider doing something something like that, but slipping deadly

poison in their drinks. That's not really a prank. Yeah, I agree, I think that that's he misjudged the dosage wildly though. Oh I'm gonna make him a little little I'm gonna I'm just gonna screw with him a little bit. Oops. I dumped the whole vial in. Oh well, I'll mix it between the two drinks. I don't delude it. This is where this that that runs well, and this actually flows into my next theory, which is poisoning of some kind. Right,

we have been talking about poison. Let's keep talking about poison. And like I said, despite Ken's insistence that he'd quote dispensed no more than two drinks per guessed, there are a lot of reports that both Margaret and Gibb looked pretty drunk by the end of the night. They had glassy eyes, they were hunched over. Their reports were drunk, But what people are describing is they were looking very ill, very pale, kind of sweaty, clammy, glassy eyed, hunched over.

It's two in the morning. Yeah, even if you're not drunk, you're tired. At two in the morning, you're gonna not look your best that now, Just so Also, you got to remember too that just because he was only serving up two drinks didn't mean people had flasks with them and stuff like. Well, and I but I do think it's probably worth mentioning that it seems people noticed this

as more of an a cute thing. It wasn't like a gradual progression of them kind of getting sleepy and hunching over and getting glassy eyed and get slowly getting drunk. It was that they were talking to them, and then five minutes later they looked pretty ill. I know again,

I don't mean to interrupt. I'm just trying to flesh this out and see what else could come of it if they've decided we're gonna have this trist But we're in this awkward situation in the social environment where GiB doesn't want everybody to know that he's out playing in the field, and Margaret's a little shy about that. I can see that being a bit of nerves. Do you

know where I'm heading with this? Where I'm I'm gonna do this thing, but I'm kind of nervous because everybody's around and I don't I don't know how to how don't like get out of here and not make it obvious. Well they weren't. They weren't reading very secretive of it. They had told the nash Is that Gibb was taking marg at home, but that could have been under the illusion of, hey, guess what, drunk Jeffrey's not here. Could but that's the same. So they leave together, So he's

being a good guy in giving her at home. The nerves of it, I don't know, people feel really weird and awkward about that. I mean, think about your friends when they meet somebody and they're they're gonna they're gonna go off together for the first time to to hook up or whatever the case. Maybe, And I've seen friends who are a little weird about the whole thing, and you watch it's like, what is going on? You don't look right? Are you okay? Are you in high school?

I have seen it in high school. I have seen it in college. I have seen it in my thirties. I have seen people do this. And these people she was late twenties, he's his late thirties. People still act like that, especially in a kind of a repressed arab Is nineteen fifties, early sixties. It's you know, I can see that going in some societal norms and causing some butterflies in the stomach. Okay, it's just my take. Yeah, disputed as much as you want, or we can continue.

And again, people have a way of modifying and reinterpreting their own memories. Memory is not an accurate thing, that's true. So can we just can let's just continue here. Maybe they drank some manti freeze. I didn't, but let's continue on with just keep going. So, like I said, it's possible they were poisoned before we went on this weird side quest and my quest, ken Ken would have pretty much been the only one to have been able to poison them. It's this wasn't the kind of party where

you're just leaving your drink everywhere. People pretty much had their drinks in hand, and there was food at the party, but it was all the face style. So for them to have been the only ones to have gotten sick, there's really no way that it could have been the food. And it couldn't have been food poisoning because of that same thing. We're talking malicious poisoning here, right, not accidental, Not oh we accidentally took too many drugs. We took it.

We're talking about somebody slipping them something at some point. Interestingly, aside from actual consumption drink or eating poison, there have been some suggestions about aerosol poisons. What yeah, the gas poisons that would be in an aerosol form. One suggestion is that it could have been a can that was placed under the pedals of gibbs car that when he accelerated, it would have dispensed it. This is almost going in tandem with Joe. Yeah, it's a very cloak and dagger

way to go about it. Okay, So that that was suggested. It was also suggested that somebody could have come and sprayed them in the face with the aerosol of some kind at some point, at some point point there. Gosh, there's some very interesting aerosol suggestions. And and in fairness, when gibbs car was found, his keys were tucked behind his um advisor. Yeah sunvisor, so was making that motion

of moving the sununum. So it's possible that if somebody had placed an aerosol can under a pedal, that it's not such a problem that it was not there when the police searched the car, because it could have been removed. Yeah, but just imagine that you get in the car, he's stepping the gas and it's sound and split unker that made funny noises. His car was Yeah. And as far as getting sprayed in the face by somebody, well I know what would have happened. Then they would have they

would have their last dime. I was crawled over to the muck and scrawled the name of their their murderer in the muck. That's what always happens. Another suggestion is that it could have been a small capsule placed under the pedals, so it would have burst. The capsule that would have been slowly filled the car with noxious fumes and it would have poisoned them that way. Or even better, it could have been dry ice placed in the back

of his car. And I think I like this theory because I think acute illness does fit with a lot of the facts of the story, discounting even that they looked maybe ill when they left. Um. So here's my initial problem with all of these gases released in the car. It's New Year's Day in Australia, which means it's high summer. The windows are not going to be rolled up in the heat or on. The windows are probably going to

be down because it's warm. But it's still like four or five in the morning, so it's probably it was probably as cool. I just understanding it was kind of cool out there. That was my understanding to Okay, I'm just thinking of like, well, it's high summer. I will you know, even if I have to get my car at six am, I I end up cracking the window because it's warm in the car because it's been shut up for a couple of hours while it's still hot.

Because if he got at the part, he got to the party went nine o'clock, but he's still going to be stuffy. Yeah, but if the windows were only cracked, not all the way down, it could still if it were coats into enough talks in that's true. I'll give you that soles as I was talking about earlier. So he in the palace. You guys are the worst. He happened to be parked kind of where they found gibbs car when Gibb and Margaret pulled up, so he's actually

an eyewitnessed to some of their last moments. It was likely around four I would say probably around four am, maybe closer to five. He had just parked his car. He was going to go for a walk, early morning walk because I guess people are crazy like that sometimes. And he said that a car pulled alongside it, alongside him or up close to him. It was Gibbs car, and that there was a woman in it who he

couldn't see. He said that he had the impression that the driver was about to speak to him but didn't, and he also said that the driver looked pale, but he thought maybe he was just drunk, which is fair. Yeah. Yeah, So Silis went out for the walk and returned to his car about an hour later, and he noticed that actually the car had been moved reparked, which is a bit odd and fair car Gibbs car, Yeah, had been reparked.

But Silas had only one hand, so he couldn't Yeah, so he couldn't turn his car around, so he did this little loop which is the path that the boys were walking, and that's when he saw the guy dart across. It wasn't the same path, but it was that it was the car track, not the footpath, because the footpath crosses the road and the road goes across the bridge. Yeah, sorry, that's no, it's it's a golf course path. Yeah, but it's it's not for driving your car down. But he

did drive his car down it. Oh he did, yes, because he couldn't get turned around. He was parked on it and he couldn't get turned around, so he took the Okay, I totally missing truth that I thought he went made a loop through a different route. There's a map that describes it pretty well, and I remember looking at it. I, just as I always do, mixed up a map. Fair totally fair anyway, that's that's when he saw the aforementioned blondie haired band, yellow blondie haired man.

There certainly some oddities here. Gibb was a scientist, and many people believed, as we said, he could have been target for assassination. Aerosol poisoning would have been a fairly clean way to assassinate somebody. It seems the onset of whatever happened was pretty acute. Vomit and poop everywhere. You know, gibbs body, the stripping down of their clothes. I also have some problems with the lover's lane theory in general, that they would go out into the forest to have

their liaison. Why not just park your car in a secluded area in the Yeah, that evidently is one of the reasons that GiB had that piece of carpet. Yeah, is carpet. It's she could put the carpet down on the ground and then sit on the carpet and not get dirty from touching the carpet, right, but she wouldn't get muddy. How's that, Joe, Yeah, that sounds good. They did pick kind of a scuggy spot that they did. Yeah, So I don't know, I have problems with that, just

in general. The whole Lover's Lane thing, it looks it does, truly to me, look like two people who got really sick and started running to have their sickness wherever. Additionally, Margaret being found forty five ft away from Gibb that's odd to me. And the corner did place her time of death two hours after his. Eventually he did. They initially thought that they had died at the same time, but then it was found that he died at five am and she died at seven a m ish. So poison,

I don't know, it metabolizes differently in your body. It could explain why they died at different times. Yeah, if it were under his seat, he would have gotten most of it and she would have gotten some of it. I don't know. Disoriented, She could have been disoriented. That's why she had his underwear that far away. She's trying to pull her underwear up and then just fell over and died. I don't know, it's a It does seem to me that they just were really sick for whatever reason.

There's there's stuff about the fact that they were at the river bank. Yeah, and that's where the trail of feces begins. So but I don't I don't know that at the river bank, on a muddy river bank is where I would go to have a nighttime affair. Yeah, I don't think that's where the mucky Yeah not not not where I would consider optical romance. Then again, romance probably wasn't really involved in this. Yeah, but I'm a little surprised that Dr Bogolis, at least it was ignorant

of this this thing. Like, for example, people think sex on the beach is really romantic, bad idea because the kind of germs and stuff that exists and toxins that exists in sand on beaches, and I'm sure it's the same for this river are things that you really don't want to get inside your body. Yeah, because we were about to go down a really bad trail. Can we just go to the next theory? Oh yeah, no problem.

But yeah, there's one last series and this is something that's gaining traction in recent year years, and this theory is that Bogel and Chandler were killed by hydrogen sulfide poisoning. The big proponent of this theory is an Australian guy named Peter Butt who made a documentary on the topic and he also that was aired by the Way in ABC,

which is the Australian broadcast channel I think um. And he also wrote a book that talks a little bit more extensively about his theory, and the book is called Who Killed Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler? And I want to give another shout out to Elena Listener we talked about at the beginning, who suggested this episode, and she was kind enough to send us a copy of the book. Was really awesome because yeah, we all read. Steve was like, everybody read this, Yeah it was. It was one of

my first actual homework assignments for everybody. A real book. Here you go, not just check out this silly black background website. Yeah, I know. And and by the way, I don't know who's responsible, but sorry Elena for the chocolate fingerprints. That was Devin. I'm sure it was Joe. Okay, fine. The spot on the river where they were found is surrounded by mangrove trees. Well that's it. There you go,

Denver mangrove trees. They might have been CAJB spies. I don't know, but it happens that mangrove trees actually do emit hydrogen sulfide. It's in According to experts, it's theoretically possible to be gas to death in a mangrove swamp. It's really unlikely, but if if air conditions are just right.

I there, the air is totally stagnant, no wind, and if you were in a low spot in the ground by the time of day actually makes a difference too, then it's theoretically possible to be gassed just by mangroves. Not likely, not likely, but that's a one in axilian chance. Yeah, but there was there was something else that was augmenting the hydrogen sulfide concentration in the area, and then that was pollution. There had in the past ben Tani factory

is a chemical company, of Vinegar Gap company. All these guys dump and waste into the river. There was also a sewer super line, which I don't know if the sewer line leaked or not, but they actually laid the super line right down the middle of the river. Yeah, they always do, yeah, yeah uh. And also that this is probably the worst defender, was the Chicago Cornflower and Starch mill, which dumped about twenty million gallons of sulfurous waste into the river every year from until about sixty

years later when they closed. So a lot of that stuff accumulated. The sulfurous waste apparently killed bottle plants and fish. It caused a rise in what's called separal phytic bacteria, which I don't know much about bacteria, to be honest with you, but apparently this particularly kind of bacteria they live on dead organic matter, organic matter, and they produce

hydrogen sulfide. Yeah. That may be the kind of stuff where you see a pond that it is full of algae and everything dies, and then the algae dies and then nothing ever grows in it again because the follow that bacteria, Because we've all seen those kind of dead ponds. Oh yeah, I know, yeah. And also making matters even worse, is they constructed a weird downstream from the site. Yeah,

it's a weir is a low dam. And the idea of a weird is that it's low enough that water can still flow over the top of it, but it still dams it up and creates like a pond or pool behind. Problem with the weir is all the stuff that's flowing downstream can most of it's like just accumulating,

it's not just flowing out to sea. And actually this river, the river, the Lancomb River, code river that we're talking about, is actually a tributary of a larger river, so it's not flowing directly in the sea, of course, but but anyway, so and also title action can't come up like tidle water from downstream can't be shoved up and sort of

flush it out and back downstream. None of that's going on because the weird is blocking the path because all of this stuff that that's getting dumped in the rivers acting like a sediment and just building up. Yeah, pretty much. So that's the theoretically as possible that there could be you know, that can actually be eruptions of hydrogen sulfide yeah, bubbles, bubbles in the mud go burst and then next thing you know, a big cloud of hydrogen sulfide comes out.

And residents of the area had been complaining for decades about a really bad rotten egg smell in the area, in the neighborhood, and well, that's what hydrogen sulfide smells like. Cool. Yeah, that stinks. Yeah, yeah, at a level of one for you. Sorry, yeah that was lamb Oh, come on, I was trying. No, it was a high quality attempted humor. So one part per million, you'll notice it sort of notice a bad

smell at about thirty parts pavilion itself sulfide. Yeah, about thirty parts per million and up it smells like rotten egg eggs. And then apparently at fit between fifty and a hundred perch familiar, it smells supposedly kind of sickeningly sweet. And I don't know, I haven't smelled the stuff. I can't say I've ever smelled that concentration, and I'm happy about that. I don't know if I've ever whipped this stuff.

Tell you the truth, over a hundred parts familiar and it paralyzes your olfactory nerve almost instantly, so you can't smell it, so you can't smell it, and it's invisible to you. Yeah, you just wouldn't notice it. You just knows yourself feeling sick and puking and having breathlessness, Yeah, and you'd go, gee, I wonder what's going on with this? You know, and then you just uh, you know, not

feeling so hot. Yeah, I'm puking. Okay, Well, so what you would probably just die, right, I mean, unless you left the area, unless you're lucky enough to leave the area. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean if I walked into a room, for example, and I started getting breathless and puking, I probably would walk out of the room. Yeah, hopefully, Yeah, Yeah, but yeah, I never know. I mean, they're going to be auction in. Deprived brain is not gonna be functioning

on a dent, so who knows. I'm told that at two hundred parts per million, respiratory failure, respiratory failure occurs within seconds, and at a thousand parts per million, which we're not even close to that, but a single breath can cause cardiac arrest just like that. So the levels here were probably in the in the hundred plus range at the river, but they weren't measured, so nobody knows

exactly sure. It's it's kind of anecdotal. Yeah, it appears that a hundred parts per million was not uncommon in the area on still windless days. Um. And because it's heavier than air, it tends to pool and hollows and low spots like down right over the river and stuff like that, you know, like you know, down the riverbed. And so I would see at the low points along the bank and to anybody that's breathing it in, when it reaches those concentrations of a plus a hundred percent

parts per million, you don't know this there. You just notice all of a sudden you're breathless, you're not yes, and you get confused. You just don't make good choices and you wind up, you know when I mean, these people probably could have saved themselves. I buy the theory. I think it's the most So you're you're in. You're in for this one. Well this is my number two one. Oh well, let's keep going on this one before you go from you because I think I know what your

number is going to be. Of course. Okay, So so yeah, they could have saved themselves. I mean, obviously, if their brains have been functioning at they could have just like stood up. Just standing up might have done it, might have done the trick ranging themselves up that high, and certainly walking up the river bank getting away would probably have done a lot. Yeah, that's fair. I think if you add in that they may have been drunk or otherwise inebriated, I buy it a little more. But they

were horizontal. Do you have the problem of him dying so much faster than her, and also her making it forty five ft away from him. That's not a small a distance. It's not a huge distance, but it's not like right there. And then I guess none of these theories really addressed the fact that they're all covered up. But you know, well, but let me let me and I'm trying to figure out how to not say this

too graphically. But if they are in the act and he is excited, he's probably going to be taking very deep breasts and breathing in quite rapidly, where if she is not as excited, she's breathing more normally. He may have been taking more of it in, and as they try to scramble away, he can't make it, which is why she gets farther away and doesn't die as quickly. Or the other thing is possibly he was on the bottom when she was on the top. I mean, I mean,

I'm just thinking of it in terms of respiration. Is where I was taking that is that he may have been very excited and rapidly breathing and getting more of it. I mean, if we're going to say this is what it is, and I'm I'm not on this theory, well, but yeah, it's got his weirdness is number one being at least a couple more people should have died over

the years by this river. Additionally, the people who found, you know, not so long after or hay Less, who was in that same area the time, should have said, oh it was really stinky, or oh I was feeling a little ill myself. He didn't have any one thing to know about its hydrogen sulfide. Correct. One of the things that breaks it down super fast is sunlight. Well, so if they're all there, if the boys are there at nine, Chalice is there around the same time, but

he's walking around. He was there at the same time, right, He was there at the same time as Bogol and handler right, But he's not on the river bank. Sure, he's not that far away though, Oh yeah, I guess that's true. If it's five in the morning, you walk the path, there's not sun Yeah, no, I can see where the sunshine issue. Okay, I see where the problem is with that. But he's also not on the river bank, right.

But if it's in that high concentration down below, at the very least, he's going to say it was really strong, odor, I really didn't feel okay or something. If it was so strong that it could literally kill people not fifty ft down the bank, he's gonna feel some effects or atly smell something or mentioned something about that, you would think. But but he may not have mentioned it because people who lived in that areas I think Joe had talked

about before, had been complaining about this for years. So it just may have been this part of the river stinks. Maybe well also talking about it, because it just everybody knows this river stinks. You never know too, because there's a medical condition nosing as man, which means that you can't smell, you can't detect odors, and it's actually more

common than people realize. And so maybe that's just yeah, so that's and that's you know, entirely within But but now, I mean, there were other people, like it wasn't it the case that some of the reporters that went down and checked out the crime scene were reported are really disgusting odor? Yeah they did. Of course, that could have been all the feces too. I don't know, Yeah, that probably wasn't Probably probably didn't help matters. Huh, all the

puk and feces. Yeah, well you you, Joe. I hesitate to give you the rains for this one, but you had one more theory. Oh no, no, no, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna bring it up. You guys can't handle the truth. Well, goodness, we don't have to hear it that. Yeah, but anyway, I guess really wouldn't know. If you can learn anything from this is that these guys should have gotten the motel. Yeah, that lie certainly would have been a lot too. Yeah, next time, get

a freaking room. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's the moral of the story. Well, before we wrap this up, Joe, you it sounds like you're mostly behind the hydrogen sulfide theory for the most part. That's that's you that's your number one candidate. Yeah. I mean, when you set aside all the all the lurid, ludicrous murder theories, I don't see anybody that had a strong motive to kill these people.

And the idea of making up a really exotic aerosol that can kill them and not leave any any anything in their tissues and stuff like that, Well, how many people have that capability? Yeah, and so this is the only one that really, you know, actually makes any sense at all, even though I still have a problem with it. Like I said, more people should have been dying along

that river. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I don't get. Yeah, I think I leaned slightly towards poisoning of some kind, just because I do think that there's a strong anecdotal evidence at least for them being sick upon exit of the car. I think that seems to me. I don't know. Maybe they parked next to Scheila's, realized that he was there, so they parked the car. They parked it across the

street from him. So they were going out, They were about to go to town on each other, and then oh crap, I feel sick, better run out and there I don't know again, though there are a lot of

unanswered questions. Stuff actually not just occurs to me that you know, what, if somebody gave them a poison, but not really not something intended to kill them, but something which actually had a delatarious effect on their respiratory system, something which actually, you know, in one of the side effects of maybe that somebody gave him a laxative because just for fun, you know, and but maybe this particular drug also a side effect of being bad for your

respiratory system. But of course it's not, you know, not typically in the doses you give it, it's not going to affect you that adversely. One of the things that Ruth Nash got investigated for was she also, if I remember correct, she was into the dosh hound scene as well. She loved oxins and she had de worming medication for the dogs that have been prescribed by her vet, which if you've ever accidentally gotten anything like that, it has the effect of a laxative on the human system. And

so that happens. These things happen, and they checked her out, they checked all their pills, they checked the bodies for that. So it could have been some kind of derivative like that. I'm not, but I know that that was something that got looked into. I personally, the only one that works

is the sulfide, the hydrogen sulfide. But my my issue with it is, as Joe said, why did more people die and over the years in places that are notorious for actually having these eruption is of hydrogen sulfide, there's only been a handful of deaths. It doesn't happen too often. It doesn't happen too often. And I this is the only one that was a double murder from this. If it was this two deaths at the same time, I have an issue with. I don't have a better theory.

None of them seem to stand up. This is the only one that seems to have some evidence behind it. But it's just so lucky. The odds of it happening at that time, let's be fair, are so high. Yeah, But I also have the problems with the who who covered their bodies, and because like, two hours is a long time for her to have outlived him. It's one thing if it were forty five minutes and half an hour, even an hour, fine, But for them to be breathing the same toxins in the same quantities. But for her

last two whole hours longer than in him. She was five ft away. She may have been just high enough. Yeah, she was unconscious. I don't, but she was in a depression, and which is probably would and if I could be wrong, but I think the drawings looked like she was actually closer to the I mean, it's it's true the pocket could have been more localized to where he was. That's fine, but it does seem weird. Yeah, I don't know where I stand. I don't. I can't pull any of these

is my prime I love this theory. Yeah, I'm saying it was the professor in the library with a lead pipe again. Yeah, okay, okay, you can cut that. You can get that one at if. If you have a theory about this that you would like to share with us, you are more than welcome to do that. You can go to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

You can leave a comment on the site. Of course, you'll find some of our research there and the audio for this episode or any of the episodes that we've put out. Most folks are listening to us through some streaming app, whether it be Stitcher or a web app or a mobile app we're on. Most of those were, of course on iTunes, so if you're on iTunes, please do take the time leave us a comment and a rating. We are on Facebook. We have the group and the

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or well it's a hundred and some odd characters. It's not a big conversation, but uh, and let's see what else. Of course, we've got our email address if you do want to tell us something, you've got thoughts on this story or suggestions for other ones. Eddie and all emails are happily received at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Without saying that having been said, it just Devin looks at me every time do that we're going to roll this one up. Put it in the can, slap a

bow on it, and call it done. Yes. Yeah, we've been working on this one for a while and I still don't know what I'm doing with it. I'll stay in hell away from that river. Now. They took the weird out, I think, but it up. Hopefully we're gonna go ahead and well I'm going to call it a night. I don't know about YouTube, so I will talk to forever. But yeah, no, I guess I'll go to everybody. Bye, guys,