Thinking Sideways: Disappearance of Sneha Philip

normal all the time. Yeah. Yeah, nothing to see here, nothing to see here, move along please all right, Well, today's story is about the disappearance of snee Huff Philip and it was suggested by Linley on Facebook excellently when this was initially suggested, it's a it's a really intriguing story and really interesting. But I was initially hesitant to

to cover this story. Yeah, I mean, we had a conversation as a team and I I actually had a quite a long conversation with the folks on the Facebook group. They they talked to me about it, and eventually they convinced me that it was okay to go ahead and cover it. About nine eleven issues, Well, yeah, that's exactly it is. Because this story does deal with nine eleven, and it's considered one of the you know, one of

the greatest tragedies or attacks in this country. Yes, you know, it's it's something that is still sensitive fourteen years later. So I'm going to preface the story by saying that what we're going to talk about deals with nine eleven, and it's it's pretty evolved in the events of September eleven, two thousand one. We're not going to talk talk about that as much. It's just bits of the story that are going to touch on it. So if you're sensitive

about it for whatever reason, be aware of that. I don't think our listeners are really all that sensitive, So I think it's going to be it's there are people who were involved that it is still a painful topic to deal with, and so I just want to put that out there. So let's let's go ahead and let's start talking about our story. We're going to talk about Sneah Philip Stee was born in nine in India, and then with her family she moved to the United States.

She wanted to study medicine, and so she decided to go to the Chicago School of Medicine and she started there While she was there, she met a young man named Ron Lieberman. She would eventually marry him five years later. After they graduated, both of them land that he was also a school a student at that same schools. He was dreaming to be a doctors wanted to go into medicine. They landed internships both in New York City. Ron had his internship at the Jacoby Medical Center in the Bronx.

Snee Hawk got hers at the Cabrini Medical Center. So they they're going to be doctors. They've got They moved to New York. They get an apartment. All is well and good. It sounds like they had a cool apartment to right down the battery. Yeah, pretty sweet. Yeah, I know it was. It's a great neighborhood. I did a little I pulled the Joe, I did a little bit of cruising around Google Maps. I know he's rubbing off on us. So we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna

start our story. On the afternoon of September two thousand and one, one left four work on that afternoon and Sneehaw she had the day off, So according to what's available, she was in the apartment for most of the day, she had a conversation with her mom online that lasted for two hours. Like Skype or like chatting. It was

a messenger. It was a messenger conversation. Yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, I think it was probably a o LL instant Messenger Microsoft Messenger, since I forget what it would like in those days. I don't know what it was like in those days. I mean, I don't remember. I was. I was a freshman, so I was kind of in the thick of it, and I sometimes I forget. Just the other day, I was thinking, Oh, what was the email address I had before I had Gmail? Wasn't that long

ago that Gmail came into existence? Yes? It was. Well, she so she has this, She has this two hour conversation with her ally, and then she apparently decided to go shopping. This is based on charges that are on her husband's American Express card and security footage of her which the security footage was found later. But she went to a Century twenty one, which this particular store was across the street from the World Trade Center. It's not the movie theater, it's it's a it's a store. It's

it's a store. Because she she bought like bedding and shoes. I think she bought lingerie to like it's a full one department store. I've never heard of Century twenty one before this, but but yeah, so she she did all of this, and based on the time stamp when she paid for all of her purchases with the American Express, she finished up around six o'clock in the afternoon. Ron her husband, says that he got home that night around midnight. He'd had a long day at work. He gets home,

his wife's not there. But based on everything that I've read from him, that wasn't totally out of the ordinary. She was known to go out and then decide to stay with family members, brother or a cousin or somebody is big. It's hard to get around sometimes. Yeah, and you know I can go here that's ten blocks away rather than the thirty fifty blocks I gotta go home. Yeah. Absolutely, So it wasn't abnormal. And he has said that, well,

I guess that. You know, he got home that night and said, well, I guess that's something we got to talk about again. Because the deal was between the pair that she was supposed to call home and say, hey, I'm staying away brother's house or I'm staying at so and so's house. That makes sense to me. I think that's fair. Yeah. Absolutely. Ron wakes up the next morning, September. His wife's still not home, but he's got an eight o'clock meeting. So he gets up and I think it's

six or six thirty. He's got to take the subway to get to work. It's like an hour commune or something, so he's got to go. She's not home. He goes to work. Well, if you know anything about September eleven, as of eight forty six am Eastern Standard time, that's when American Airlines Flight eleven flew into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, And to put it lightly, that's when chaos ensued. I mean things, Yeah, things went

crazy after that. Ron he called sneak has several times over the course of the day, but she never answers home at the apartment or calling her cell phone. I can't answer that, he doesn't say. I'm under the impression that he was calling the house because she was supposed to be at home, because she had both the tenth and the eleventh off, so presumably he was expecting her to have gone home. But I don't know that she had a cell phone. Well, you know, she could have

been home, she could have had a cell phone. I think the other thing to keep in mind is, because it was September eleven, almost literally everybody in America was calling almost literally anybody they knew in New York or who might be in New York trying to get ahold of them. Lines did get really clogged and did a lot of calls just didn't go through. And if you know, their homeline, they didn't have an answering machine or whatever. He could have tried and tried and tried and not

realized that it wasn't connecting quite possibly, you know, or whatever. No, No, that's that's a that's a very valid point. Well let's see what So we're we're into the afternoon of September eleven. He's at work that the hospital had been in huge preparations for all of the wounded that we're going to come in from the World Trade Center, which didn't actually happen. So he gets he takes off from work, and what

does he do. He goes to the hospital that she works at, which was on Staten Island, right, Yes it was. And I'm guessing that his idea was that she must have seen what was going on and said I got to get to work, I've got to help. Yeah, a lot of people did that in those professions. Absolutely, there's an interesting not to you know, go too much into the nine eleven situation. But you know Steve Bushemi the actor, he was a firefighter before he was an actor. He

worked for the New York Fire Department. And he actually like went back to his old fire station and geared up and went in and was like saving people. That was the thing everybody was doing, right Yea, even if you had no training, you were they were jumping in trying to help with Yeah, there's there were people running and doing everything. Clearly reasonable for him to say, oh, she's a caring person. She probably went to work because

she thought that it would be there, except she wasn't there. Okay, So what he then decides, Okay, I'm going home, which is the next logical course of action when you can't find your wife and the city is literally in flames and everything is going crazy. He I think what he did is he he hopped a ride with an ambulance that was heading towards the towers. Traffic was so bad. I think it took him like six hours to get there. No, he somehow managed. I think he burrowed or stole the

bike to get the last minute distance there. He gets the apartment building, but he can't get in to the building itself because the electricity is off and the automatic locks on the door locked. So he's, you know, he's trying to figure out what to do. He sees somebody has a candle burning in a window, uses a flashlight, gets their attention, gets that neighbor to open the window, and shouts at him and says, can you go to

this apartment, knock on the doors or anybody home. That person goes and nobody's there, comes back to the window and says, nobody's there. At that point, Ron's got no choice. He's got to find somewhere else to stay, and so he went and he stayed with a friend that night. The next morning or the next day, he comes home. This is now the twelfth of September. He can get into the building this time powers back on, So he

gets into the building. He goes to his apartment. He walks in and nobody's there, And it's obvious that nobody's been there because the windows had been left open, and the apartment is full of soot, so it would be very obvious somebody's home because there would be footprints. The only footprints in the place are from their cats, two little kittens who were obviously having a high old time in the dust. Apparently they're probably a little hungry the time he got home. Probably, so that is the end

of what we know officially about Sneeha. She was seen on the tenth. As of the eleventh, nobody has seen her, and as of the twelveth, we've got confirmation she's not whome. Probably goes without saying. Ron, her husband and her family, they go nuts. They want to find her. They're putting flyers up all over the city. I think they printed five thousand flyers with her name and information and photos

on it. They're plastering those all over. But of course those kind of flyers are all over at that time because people are trying to find everybody that they can't locate. Yeah. Ron then sees, wait, there's reporters everywhere. I'm gonna go talk to the reporters and I'm going to get their help to get this story out there, to find my wife. Except he quickly discovers that the reporters are not interested as soon as they find out that she went missing

on the tenth. So he's kind of frustrated, and he gets a bright idea. He calls snee Hans brother John, and he says, hey, John talked to the reporters, but don't tell him what day she went missing. As a totally off topic aside, what kind of jerk parents are like, Okay, daughter, we're going to name you. See you can beat John. Yeah, yeah, she had a very traditional name. Come on, guy, I don't know. I was wondering about that too. It's possible that he was born in the US, he was younger

than her, and then possibly changed his name to John. Well, yeah, I don't know what their ages are relative to each other. I know she was born in India. He may have been born in the States. It's hard to say. Or, as Joe said, he may have just gone by John.

But sorry this well yeah, I know. But but the thing is, the plan didn't go according to plan, because as soon as John got on camera, he took the story even farther and told the reporters that on the morning of the eleventh, he was on the phone with his sister when American Airlines eleven hit the tower, the North Tower, and she said, I've got to go, I've got to help, which is what a doctor would do. And she hung up, and he said that was the last time that he talked to her. Totally not true.

A little bit of embellishment there, but understandable. Genuinely not true, right, genuinely, not just kidding. Well, later on he admitted it was not true. But it backfired so badly it blew up in their faces. Because, of course, the New York Police Department won't do anything. I mean, they're inundated with a whole mass of work to take care of now, but they won't look into it because he said she was she went to the towers. At the time, Ron had

filed a missing person's report forcedney Haw. There were nine thousand missing person reports in New York after after everything happened, one there was bad reporting in the police department. They found out multiple people were listed multiple times, all this stuff, and there was a few fraudulent cases of missing person reports, but they didn't do anything because they just presumed that

she was in the tower. Yeah, I mean, not only fraudulent, but also, you know, you have all of those people who freak out there, you know, in Oregon and their daughters in New York City, and the towers collapsed, and they couldn't get ahold of her the three times they called on the exact day, within you know, two hours, even though they heard that the phones were jammed and

she must be dead somewhere. So she's you know, and it turns out she calls him an hour later and said, my mom, Dad, I'm I'm fine, And they just don't bother to call and get her taken off. Yeah, it's understandable. It's total panic. Oh god, yeah, I mean total panic mode. I get why people do it it, but unfortunately it made things so much harder for the NYPD. Oh yeah, the family they know or they they believe at this point that Snea is not in the ruins of the

North Tower or the South Tower. The family went ahead and they hired a private investigator to try and figure out all of Sneeha's actions on that day. On the day of the tenth, they hired a guy by the name of Ken Gallant. He was formerly of the FBI, and he did he did a ton of legwork and trying to find her, and he did. He found some great stuff, but I was also a little surprised. He recommended to the family who then flew this person in from Pennsylvania a psychic, which question to me, it raised

a little bit of a red flag on him. But but what he did find is he was able to track down video footage of her. There are are two different pieces of video of her from that day after she left the apartment, one of which, as we talked about just briefly before, is the video of her century twenty one where she's shopping shot when when she's on the video she's in the coat section trying on different coats.

There is also a video from the inside of the apartment building's entry on the elevens not confirmed her right, It is not confirmed her. What it is is the sun is shining through the windows in the entry enough that is bleaching out. According to what they what Gallant and Ron are saying, to the point that they can't

get a lot of details. They see a woman. She's got the same hairstyle, about the same build, appears to be wearing kind of the same outfit, and has the same mannerisms as Sneak huh, but they can't confirm arm that. But this person, this woman walks up to the elevator, pushes the button, waits a minute, and then turns around and walks out of the building. The time stamp on that video roughly corresponds to when the North Tower was hit, So it's in a way it supports the idea that

she ran to the tower after everything happened. Yeah, except it wasn't necessarily her because she wasn't carrying any bags where she should have been carrying bags, So she she still hadn't brought home all the stuff that she thought. That is true if she had come straight from the store, but we're talking well plus hours later, she might have left them somewhere. I totally get where you're going with that, Joe, Is that there's this piece where if she bought all

this stuff at Century one, where's it at? And this person theoretically should be carrying those same articles that were purchased thing. Well, unless you know, she was kind of she was a young woman, right, she was in her twenties. She was thirty one, I believe. Yeah, so you know, you go out because she would have gone out right if she had stayed at somebody's house. She probably was

out late. So you go out, you wake up next morning, you're kind of hungover, and you just stay to your brother or a friend who you see all the time. You say, I'm gonna go home. You just I'll get this stuff later from you next time I see you or whatever. I'm just gonna walk home, try and clear my mind or whatever. You make it back to your apartment and you don't have bags. I mean, I think

that's totally reasonable. That's entirely plausible. Or maybe she was buying it for a gift, or you know, there's a lot of reasons she could not have that stuff. Yeah, And as as far as her turning and leaving about one that the plane hit the tower, it doesn't. That also doesn't really point towards it being see how either, But anybody, anybody hearing that, yeah, enormous noise would go outside to see what it was. Yes, And so if she hears that a normal stoys and she goes outside,

she sees what, gets an idea what's going on. Based on her training, we can presume that she would have run to assist. It seems like though that the investigator and Ron how large a apartment complex. Are we talking like thousands of people? Hundreds of people? Do you know? It seems like the sort of thing you would circulate and say, hey, is this you to rule other people out? Here's here's the odd bit. The odd bit is that the p I did all of his work and he

gave a report to Ron. Ron won't release that report. So this this this footage of this woman in the entry I I can't nobody's seen it. You can't see the video, you can't see stills from it because he's kind of under lock and key. It's that's odd because it's not like he owns it. He paid for it, so he still doesn't own it. Well, he doesn't own the footage, but I'm sure that by the time all this came out to the apartment building probably didn't have

the footage anymore. But again, this is another thing that I'm going to call out as a red flag. This stands out to me is a really odd bit of information. Yeah, there there must have been something kind of bad in that report. If he didn't want to release it would lead me to think that, ye, let's let's keep moving on down with the events were still moving kind of a chronological order of what goes on with the story. Initially, Snea was listed as one of the victims of the

World Trade Center collapse. There was, but because there was no evidence to substantiate that in terms of nobody could physically say they saw her go there and they didn't find a body, she was removed from that list in January of two thousand and four, and the law in New York says that the date of a person's death will be set at three is from the last time they were seen alive when they go missing, which means that officially, after she had been removed from the list,

her date of having died was September two thousand and four. Ron appealed the decision. He tried to keep her on the list, but there was another judge denied that appeal in November of two thousand and five. That prevented him from having access to the Victims Compensation Fund, which had been set up to help people whose family members had been killed, you know, for from a financial perspective. According to to Ron, he wanted access to that fund because he wanted to set up a memorial fund in his

wife's name. Here's the thing, She's a thirty one year old woman who's going to be a doctor, very young, high paid profession He stood together about three to four million dollars. What the heck, I'd do it A happy little chunk of money. That's a yeah, that's a that's a sizeable bit of cash. Um. He never he never got anything out of the victims compens or the Yeah,

victims Compensation fund in two thousand eight. A panel of judges overturned the ruling in two thousand and five and changed her official date of death back to September eleventh, two thousand and one. But by that time, of course, the fund had long since closed taking applications, so he couldn't get anything from it. According to Ron, the money didn't matter. What he wanted was his wife's name to

be recognized among the victims. So she is now officially listed as one of the two thousand, seven hundred fifty three people who died that day, not counting hijackers. This is this is American citizens overly. Yeah. So so he at least got her on that. There's an at the memorial her name is listed. It's interesting that he said that he just wanted her name on the list, even though they got a private investigator and none of them really believed that she was in the rebel Initially. I've

said it before and I'm gonna say it again. There's a lot of flags in this story. Yeah, a lot of things that I have to raise an eyebrow, and I I have I had a listed home as I was going through my research, like, wait, that didn't get checked off? That didn't get checked off? This is circled in red mark er. What's going on here? But we're now going to take a bit of a turn in our story. Okay, yep. So officially, the NYPD they think that she died in the towers collapse kind of, after

everything settles down, they do their own investigation. The NYPD in their investigation, they per sended some details about snee Haw that aren't flattering, and her family does not like and they constantly, constantly are denying and putting down. According to the NYPD, she had a drinking problem and she possibly was leading a double life. What's what's a drinking problem? Though? I just I mean that sincerely. I mean that, for instance, a woman of my age, technically, if you consume three

or more alcoholic beverages, a week, you over consume alcohol. Yeah, I don't know a single person who drinks that's my age that drinks that little. I just don't, you know, And so I think it's be totally reasonable if I went missing for some reason that, you know, the Portland police could say, well, she did have a drinking problem, because I drink way more than that, you know. So I don't know. When they say things like that, I

have a hard time. I usually take it with a pretty huge grain of salt because if they're like, well, she was at the bar four times a week and had a two shots every night, you know, like, well, okay, that's people can do that and be totally reasonably healthy. That it's very funny that you say that, because I've I've always thought my fiance drinks cider or you know, mixed drinks, but she'll have one or two a week.

And it always was weird to me when I would go to the fridge and I'd grab a beer and I'd say, hey, honey, you want to drink or something. She said, no, I'm fine, And at first, well, yeah, I got used to it. She doesn't doesn't drink that much. But at first I was like, what's this is really weird. I am not going to be really that funny if

you don't have any more to drink. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean but I think that that's one of the things we talked about that sometimes where people say or the you know, investigation reveals quote unquote that this person had a drinking problem, and I always just kind of want to take that with a huge grain of salt. Although it does appear that her drinking actually interfered with their job at Cabrini. Yeah, well, we'll get into that, but I just wanted to mention that for future past

and current mysteries. Yes, absolutely, good point the NYPD, this is this is what one of the things that they're using in their investigation to say that she's got that problem that we're just talking about is she was told in early two thousand and one that her contract her internship with Cabrini would not be would not be renewed, and the reasons were for tardiness and alcohol related issues. Okay, that's fair, all right, Yeah, that that does lead you

to think maybe there is something going on. Now. She did land their job, she got she got another internship in internal medicine at St. Vincent's medical Center which was on Staten Island, which is what Joe was kind of talking about briefly earlier. She does seem like she was smart, She had it together. She was a minority female, so I mean, I'm honest to god facts. Well, you know, I don't want to sound racist, but Indians are pretty damned smart. She seemed to be very intelligent. Regardless of

her race or sex, she seemed to be intelligent. She never had anything in her work reviews that I can find saying that she did a poor job, other than she had some personal issues, which, let's be honest, who doesn't have personal issues? Yeah, but not all of us bring it to work. Oh wait, are you saying I'm bringing something to the podcast? Up? Crap? All right, Well, we'll talk about my liquorice addiction later. Um. Not long after she was let go from Cabrini let go, or

told she wasn't going to be renewed. I'm guessing it's after she was no longer there. Read into that. How are you want to after she was after she was no longer there, she got into a bar fight or a fight in a bar, I should say, admitted spending the night in jail, which again we've kind of we've rationalized a few things so far, so let's rationalize this. Who hasn't found out they were getting fired or gotten fired and said I'm going to the bar and I'm

drowning to my sorrows in a glass or seven? Who hasn't done that? Why are you too looking at me like that? I've never been fired been fired, So yeah, I know it's not it's not a it's not a good feeling. I'm young's there's still time. I've had very few jobs that I quit, but I've had a lot of jobs. Okay, well, we're gonna continue on with the

damning evidence here. Snee Hall also claimed that one night while out with co workers, this is again out at a bar, and I can't pin down whether what the sex of this coworker is, but one of her coworkers grabbed her inappropriately. I don't know what that means. Whether it was a smack on the bottom or a grab on the chest or attempt to kiss, I don't know. In fairness, it shouldn't matter, but it does apparently in this day and age, Yes it does. If somebody says

this person touched me inappropriately. That means that they felt violated and it should be taken and reported as such. But yeah, that's just my opinion. Man, I don't I'm not sure that I would go actually go to the police and and try to get the data to bring charges against somebody who produced, which is what she did.

I guess I might if it were a thing that had been happening a lot of time, you know, if it were reoccurring, if it you know, if this person was grabbing me and grabbing me and I kept saying like, hey, I'm not into that. Hey I'm not interested. Hey, dude, like calm down, back off, or or chick whatever, you know, calm down, back off. All right, Seriously, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna file a complaint next time. That maybe would

be the progression. But I would also mention that in my report say this has been a pattern of behavior. I wouldn't say this person touched me one time. But did she has there any record that she ever ever took the complaint to HR? The only the only record that I have found is the report that she officially filed with place. Well, you wouldn't report it to HR if you were out after hours with co workers. It's

not a workplace incident at that. But I think what Joe is getting at is if it was a workplace incident like he like you were talking about, then it would have been could it could have just been reoccurring outside of the workplace. When you know, you go out for drinks with coworker once a week or whatever, and this guy or girl is always weird and attempting to grab you. You wouldn't mention that to HR, there'd be

no reason to know. But HR can't do anything. If somebody's grabby off the grounds, that's that's outside of their their realm. They have no jurisdiction. But so she filed this complaint finally she did, and the d a's office, after reviewing it, dropped the charge and turned around owned and they slapped on her a charge of filing a false complaint or false report. And they said, you know, if you want to admit that this is not really

what happened, will drop the charge against you. And she stood her ground and said, no, I'm not going to do that, and she landed herself in jail for another night. That's kind of strange that they would lock up in jail for a night because I I don't Again, this is one of those things where I can't get a hold of the court records and all I've got is

the family's accounting of it. But the point is, according to the NYPD, once that all went down, so we've got the night of the inappropriate grab and then she gets in trouble for it all. She continued to go out and drink, but she started frequency frequenting lesbian bars. Makes sense to me, Well, there's I I don't think that that really matters much. I mean, her family has said, well, of course she went. This is where I get the

impression that the grabber was a dude. She was going and hanging out bars that were full of women because there's no guys there to repeat that scenario. But that yeah, yeah, yeah, she feels safe around other women, so I'll just hang out and drink here. Plus some of the better bars in New York or lesbian bars, so you know, yeah, yeah, I mean she she went to some they listened them off and they seemed to be pretty well known. And the report that I was reading never been to any

of those. I've hung out in lesbian bars. I've hung out in gay bars. I mean it not in New York. No, No, I would be happy to hang out in any bar in New York. I still haven't been to New York. I want to go to New York, and I still haven't gotten to go to New York and hang out for a while. This is the real intervention we're going to have after the show out. Maybe we should have done this show on location so you have an excuse

to go to New York. There we go sponsors this at this point in our story, if we think back to when there was that stuff about when she wouldn't always come home and she would stay with family members, it then comes out that what was happening was that stee How was going out and then staying at the homes of people that she met in the bar, specifically at these gay bars. Ron rationalized it away and said, well, no,

there was a totally platonic thing. They would hang out and talk, they would listen to music all night like there was nothing sexual whatsoever going on here. And I could see that. But I also have to ask, wait, if she's suddenly hanging out, she's having such a good time with all of these other women who are also into women. Maybe she realizes, wait, I kind of really

like women. It would also help explain the kind of uh, I don't know, symptoms of almost mental anguish that someone might exhibit when they are realizing something large about themselves, like perhaps questioning their sexuality. And there was she was experiencing depression. Yeah, you know, you know you you maybe drink more, you get in fights, you exhibit behavior problems at work. When you're realizing that this person that you thought you were this entire time, you become depressed, you're

no longer the person you thought you were. Particularly coming from um an Indian background or a background that may be less welcoming of I would just say it's a very culturally rigid, I think a rigid um um. Do you know what I'm getting out? I can't think of the words here, but it's like you've got to hold certain track. Yeah, of course, moray rigid, thank you. I don't think it's quite as bad. It's like say Saudi Arabia.

Oh no, no no. And that's not to say that like you know, Indians as a whole, right, It's like just like you can't say Americans as a whole. What some people are and some people aren't. And you know, you never know what what background somebody comes from. There's there's unfortunately more here. Of course, there's row mud on on this poor woman. There, this this one. Her family has fought tooth and nail and denied and denied, denied.

But according to the NYPD investigators, her brother John caught his sister and his then girlfriend in bed together at one point. Well, okay, And the fact that they've denied it so hard, right, would maybe suggest that they weren't okay with her being You know, I think if you are a family that's okay with her being gay, you say, well, maybe she was, she was, maybe she was experimenting. That doesn't mean that she disappeared for any you know, other

kind of reason than she disappeared. Yeah, No, No, it's it's you don't ye like that. Well, that's the thing is that John has said He's like, uh, yeah, no, I never said that. I never actually even talked to the investigator who put that on paper. Have they found the quote unquote girlfriend at the time. Uh yeah, that's the mother of his child and they got married, right, yeah, I got married. Did they talk to her again? Seems

like that'd be a pretty straightforward. This is the frustrating part of the story that I've already said before, is that so many of the players have been insulated and kept away from the media and from people who are asking questions. And the one person, the investigator who got in there, we can't see what he found. So that that that that's the part that drives me nuts there. Well, maybe it's maybe it's such innocuous stuff, but they're just so afraid to let anything come out. I don't know.

I don't either. But regardless the trouble she was having when she was at Cabrini, that the tardiness and the alcohol related issues that followed her to her new job. One of the things that she had to do when she was at St. Vincent's she had to meet with a substance abuse counselor. She actually got suspended for missing an appointment with that counselor. I wonder if they gave her the job at St. Vincent's on condition that she

work on her problems. That could very well be it that she would say, Hey, I got fired from my other job because of these things, and I'm really wanted to work on them, and you know, being up front, honest, and they appreciated that, and they said, all right, well if you do counseling, then will or she didn't hide it and they called the other other place. They're like, oh yeah, no, no, this is why we let her go because you know, hospitals talked to each other. Yeah,

that guy killed like two dozen people. Oh yeah, we're not going to hire that the angel of death. Yeah, yeah, they're not. They're not going to do that. But but I mean, regardless, it's so far the last ten fifteen minutes has been super uplifting. Shall we get into theories? Um? Yeah, why not? Theory number one, she ran away, that's a theory. The circus not that the theory goes that she she

ran away from her life. She she wasn't happy. Is we've kind of had a discussion here so far, is that she wasn't happy and maybe the drinking and staying out at night note without her husband may have been a symptom of that, and the possible depression that we've touched on briefly might have been another symptom of that as well. Uh. There there there are bits that say that the marriage wasn't all roses and things between the

couple weren't all great. I was gonna say, We've rationalized a number of things so far, and one of the things I can say is that I don't know any RelA, aationship that is perfect, and people who say they have a perfect relationship are in denial of something. I mean, people are people, and there's always going to be some friction. The other thing is I've talked about before with well things seem to be good, is who's telling the story, Ron and her family. So we have one source of

the information. The sheer coincidence of her deciding to run away the day before the World Trade Center attack. It's just too convenient for me, it's too perfect. Well, don't you know it's not necessarily coincidence, though she might have been planning on running away and then and then eleven happens and she realizes, holy crap, I got a perfect excuse. It doesn't even have to be a planning like a

you know, months in advanced situation. It could just be she sees the thing happening and realizes I could disappear true and it would explain right. They found all of her stuff was still in the apartment. Everything you know, your credit cards, her glasses, her ID or passport, her driver's license and passports, everything was left behind. That well, okay, I don't know why her driver's license would be left behind if she was out drinking. But I can't see

how you would go shopping without your idea. You would need your idea and credit cards. So I think it's probably not true that they were left at the apartment. But okay, fine, even if they were even all the better to disappear if you have some cash that you got who knows how, but you've got some cash and you just walk away from your life. You have some cash, you managed to get out someplace, and you know, I don't,

I don't know do something. I've obviously never tried to plan a disappearance, So I would think that if you were planning to take off, you would maybe do a little noodling on the internet. Yeah, I think I help change your identity and stuff like that if you were planning. Again, Not that key part race that she wasn't just a runaway of advantage, right, Yes, A great circumstances to take

advantage because of the the p I ken Glaude. He said that he went through her or We've been told that he went through her computer and found nothing in her history on the computer to indicate that now she might have been savvy enough to wipe her browser history a different computer. Yeah, do it at work occasionally or the library. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's there's ways that it can be done, but but none of this stuff

is there. The thing, and I know that you're probably gonna jump on me a little bit for this, Devin, but the thing that she did that makes me think that maybe she wasn't intending to leave is that she had gone and spent the day with her mother several days prior to that, and when she was with her mother, she had said this was great, and why are we doing this more often? Like this was a great day. Well, that's that's one of the problems I have with this theory.

I don't think she ran away because it appears to me that she was close to her family, and if even if she had a rocky marriage, I don't think she'd abandoned her family. But the other the other thing is there's there's always a high bar for me and this whole, this whole thing about people disappearing, it depends on how much you're leaving behind, and she's spent years and a lot of money getting a medical credential, which she would be throwing away. Yeah, so that's why I

don't believe it. I agree with you, But I will just say that people get sentimental when they're planning to leave, right, So, you know, saying spending time with your mom and having not done that a whole lot, and just saying, oh, I just wish we would do this more often doesn't necessarily mean also, I'm not planning to run away. But I'm with Joe on this one. I don't think she ran away, all right. Well, that then makes us go to the next theory. The next theory is that, in fact,

she did die at the World Trade Center. Yeah. Like I said before, the story of her running into the World Trade Center was made up by her brother. There is the footage of her in the apartment building entry at about the time that the plane hit. That kind of corroborates that maybe she did go and try and help and she was killed by falling debris or somehow got into the lobby of the building and was killed when it was when it collapsed, or ran into the

south tower. I mean, you know, yeah, there were. There was a couple of minutes in between, at least, right, I don't I'm sorry, I don't remember. I was young, but there was time in between. So if the one tower is burning, you run into the other one to help people evacuate from it, and then that gets hit. Yeah, or I don't think she would have run into the other one, because at the time, when there was only one plane it smacked into the towers, everybody thought it

was an accident. It wasn't until the second plane hit that everybody everybody started saying w T. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's a very good point. There's also the possibility in this theory that she did stay out somewhere else and stayed at somebody else's house that night or somebody else's

place the night prior, and was walking home. So they lived only a couple of blocks away from the World Trade Center, So it's possible that she was an innocent bystander when the first plane struck and got hit by debris and then eventually buried when the tower came down entirely or there. I'm sure there was a Starbucks in the No, I mean genuinely there there were, there were things in the tower too, right, So it's possible that she just happened to be in there doing something on

her way home. The century twenty one was cross street, and I've seen I will admit I didn't dive into this because it didn't key in until just this moment. Is that there were people that could stay across the street from the World Trade Center. So maybe she stayed over there somehow, And I don't know how that plays out. I can't even begin to fathom how that plays out. But maybe somehow then she comes out and then whatever scenario happens happens. This is this is entirely possible as well.

And I think there are some good statistics to support this theory as well. There are there actually there. They're really disheartening. But but here's I'll lay at a couple of bullet points. All of the two thousand, six hundred and six people that were killed in the World Trade Center collapse, so that's not counting people who were on the planes, there were about sixteen, it was six. About

six people were never identified. The remains were never IDENTI fun there are over ten thousand tissue and bone samples that have been collected that haven't been identified, as in, they haven't been matched to a known victim somebody that was in the towers at the time, So that's a huge number of people. The other thing is that the City of New York has in their possession at to this day about two thirds of the jewelry that was

collected from the site. When the fires were raging, it was about it was over two thousand degrees in the rubble. Most things like metal bands, like gold and silver, those things are gonna melt, but diamonds and hard stone like that would not. So those those items were found, and some of them have been returned to family who have been able to provide documentation saying yes, that was my wife's diamond or my husband's diamond, or whatever the case

may be. That means that it's entirely possible that we that they may be able to figure out that she was in there based on the diamonds from her rings, her earrings, and she had a necklace, so those things could have survived the temperatures, and the family has provided the documentation to the City of New York. But it's really really difficult to to get confirmation of but it's it's still possible, still possible that maybe I need, but

it's very tough. Well, that's the thing about it is that there's only so many ways to cut a diamond, and so matching up a diamond from one of her pieces of jewelry was the diamonds that they find in there, it's kind of conclusive, especially if it was you know, a necklace set from k is right. How many women

have that necklace set from? You know? That's true coming But yeah, certainly like the diamond from her engagement ring should have been more distinctive, but that would require a serial number somehow etched on it, which I don't think they don't know. But but you get, I know about a diamond. You nobody get angry at me for buying a blood diamond, but about a diamond. And I got the report on it, and it's got all a specifics

listed on it. But here's the thing. If that diamond is then in a giant fire and is being hit by rubble that is tons and tons of stuff, it may not be recognizable to that report. Also they probably have. This is super depressing, but probably there are thousands of diamonds. I mean, even if you just say half of the people that were killed in the World Trade Center attacks where women that still is you know, over two thousand people or sorry, over a thousand diamonds that could have

been found in the rubble. The fact that you can think it's in the order of pieces of identifiable jewelry and that's insane To ask them to look an examine every single one of them and try and match it to one. That's insanity. Yeah, no, I mean I'll look. Yeah. It actually surprises me that some company that specializes in

diamonds this is a marketing pr bit. And this is gonna sound disgusting as soon as I say it, but for great publicities say we're going to donate our services and we're going to document the characteristics of every stone that they have, and then we're going to try and match them to it. That's a great pit of pr that's also a huge service to the families. But it's companies do that stuff because well it's truistic, but it's

also great p off. Actually, if you if you just took all the diamonds that you found it sort of in my way and just say, okay, what are you looking for? Were you looking for a one carrot diamond. Okay, and here's the one carrot diamonds. Let's look, let's how to look. See. I'm pretty sure that all of the really obvious ones the very easy to identify. That that third that were identified, they're probably easy to figure out after that. The rest of them were just so nondescript.

You know, you've got one carrots and three quarter carrots and all these little stones. At that point, it's a needle in a haystack. But but I think we've belabored that. I'm kind of doubting that she died that died in the w TC because simply because she spent the night with somebody, and she usually would stay with either her cousin or a brother, and she didn't obviously stay with them,

so she stayed with somebody else. That person never came forward, you're right, you know, and so and so she instantly spent the night with somebody and forgotten left her bag. So you think that that person, at some point or another come forward and said, hey, she slept on my couch that night, And that person never did. And that actually leads us into our next set of theories, because our next theory is actually split in half and that theory's violently No. The next theory is that she was

kidnapped and or murdered, or how about sold into slavery. Yeah. I didn't even go into that, Joe. I don't really want to go into that, to be quite honest with you, sir. Here's here's the thing we're going to talk about. The century twenty one. There was a clerk there named Sonya Mora. She came forward later on, I think it was weeks or a month later, and she said that she saw sney Huh shopping there, and she she knew her. She'd been there many times. Yeah, she was a regular so

store close to her house, she probably, yeah. And she said that she saw her with another woman shopping. She said she saw her in the shoe section with this woman, which unfortunately didn't have video surveillance, because evidently the shoes aren't as important as the jackets section where there was

surveillance footage. It's harder to steal shoes than jackets, is it, really, Yeah, you just put a jacket on and walk out like you've been wearing it, shoes, like you have another pair of shoes, or oftentimes they'll only put one shoe out or uh, they only have the display size out and then sitting there and very good point. Yeah, well, it appears in the footage has found that she's by herself.

But according to this report, she was with another woman who was described as small, dark skinned, possibly in her thirties and possibly Indian. This woman, you know, she might have been and she might have known Snea Hob but she's never come forward. And and the lead ends right there. And it could have been as simple as somebody that she had met before at the store, could have been

a casual acquaintance who she bumped into. It could have been some of these she didn't know and just sat there and had a conversation about aren't they shoes great? And the clerk immediately assumed that they knew each other the same and they look kind of the same. Yes, so there's there's all kinds of stuff. But if if this is true, this woman never came forward, so we

don't we don't know anything about her. Well, yeah, and I gotta tell you, I had a lot of random thoughts and her ideas as I was going through this story. And one thing that I've never been able to find, it's a picture of her mother and we don't know what's in the tense of their two hour online conversation. I would imagine this would have come out in the police report. But it's plausible. I mean, I'm I have to wonder, did they say, let's go to the century.

It just seems unlikely that her mother, the mother of a thirty something your old woman, would be described as looking like she was in her thirties as well. Sorry, there's all kinds of stereotypes for people saying I can't tell one from the other. An age age is kind of hard to tell sometimes. I mean, I know women that I work with who are of Asian descent, and you know, the first time I met her, I was like, she's must be one in her mid thirties. No, she's

in her mid fifties. I mean, some people age differently, that's true, but that would be a startling. I mean, to look like you're the age that your child is is very It's it's not I understand, I agree, but I would say that it's highly unlikely. No, I will not disagree with that, but I just I couldn't help but think of that. The other The other thing is, though, is it couldn't have been her mother, because her mother would have said something, absolutely have something. I think in

a heartbeat she would have said something. Again, this is one of those things that just popped into my head and I had to ask. Yeah, it's it's hard to say what a relationship, if anything, to this woman was, And it's hard to say they were just like, you know, two people who just chatted for thirty seconds, and it could have been as simple as that. But let's move to the other half of she was kidnapped slash murdered. Uh, it's entirely possible that she was just the victim of

a random murder. She was known to go to a bar, whether it was a bar that was of men and women or women only, and have a drink or several drinks. And it's possible that she sat down next to someone female or male, who lured away from the bar, or who randomly followed her home and attacked her. She could have been unfaithful and went home with somebody who was capable of murder. I mean, these things are entirely possible. But the odd part of that is that her body

never showed up. And we've we've had a lot of conversations recording this podcast about how hard it is to really do a good job of hiding a body. It's New York. It's full of dark, cubby holes where you can stuff things that don't show up for years. I get that, but most people who kill aren't that good at thinking ahead, especially in a time when I mean it seems like the city was being pretty scoured for bodies, not you know, World Trades cent are notwithstanding there are

all those you know, nine thousand missing people reported. The NYPD is going to go out and be like, all right, well, I guess we'll check every dumpster today, you know, I guess we'll check every Are you talking about checking every dumpster in the city because of just no, well, I'm not because of the terrorist attacks necessarily, but to help try to determine if the people that were reported were actually in the World Trade Centers or they you know,

we're drunk asleep on the court. You know, last time I saw Joe, he was at jones E's bar and he was talking to this ruffian and then I didn't see him against So they're gonna go to Jones's bar and they're going to rifle through the dumpster in the back just to check. And I don't you know, that just comes from what makes sense to me is that that's how you whittle something like that down. That's how you come up with the accurate number, is you prove that the other people who you kind of pursue all

avenues of people being reported missing. So you're doing probably more investigation than typical. You're going to run into bodies more frequently, you would think, you would think. Yeah, But also I can see the total sit they were stretched thin, and it's totally possible that I actually have a feeling that that is more accurate. They were stretched So but you can also there are ways to get rid of bodies, and there really are, there are, but not everybody knows

how to do that. And I get if this is true, it's gonna be kind of a crime of opportunity rather than a crime of planning. Crime of opportunity usually ends up being messy and leaving all kinds of clues. Yeah, well, it's certainly, you know what you would think that somebody, if we wanted to say, murder her, would just have murdered her and left the body to be found exactly. But you know, supposing a murdered her statutes. The body behind the bush goes away. And this is remember they

lived in the battery. They live very close to the water, very close to the docks, and so you know, I go, you go away, you find you find a bout of change in way it's kind back, you know, and wait to buy it down and just pitch her off a pier and never be found again. I mean not for years. No, no, no, I I totally get where you're going. It's just it doesn't seem that likely to me. No, not really. I mean that that that seems to in for a lot of planning, and especially in the aftermath of the World

Trade Center events. Let's say, okay, let's just run down that out that that rabbit hole for a minute. You kill somebody and you got them, you got the body in your apartment, and you're trying to figure out how to get it to the docks. And then a plane flies into a freaking building and the city is a zoo. How are you going to sneak around with a body rolled up in a rug? To use the the old mob joke, I mean, that's that's really not as easy

to do because everybody's looking at everything. That's going on and they're all wigged out, said, that would be the one time you could just you could actually, you know, throw a body over your shoulder in the fireman's carry and and be going down the streets saying, oh my god, she's hurt really bad. I got to get to the hospital. You could do that. Yeah, observation that really creeps. It might actually be a sher coincidence, and maybe she was murdered and then and then stuffed in a dumpster at

the World Trade Center just by shier coincidence. Like keep you know, trying to hold back from saying something like, well, it's also not entirely impossible that she was lord and murdered in the World Trades I mean the huge, huge buildings with lots and lots of offices. If somebody were you know, if she met somebody in that area and they worked there and they said, all right, sweet, let's go back to my you know, let's go to my office and do the hanky panky, and one thing like

to another. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not probable, but it's not impossible. And that's that's the hard part. It's not impossible. Let's go to what I'm gonna say, is a completely self made theory. Yeah. I have come up with this all of my own because original content. It's original content, because nobody else is putting this out there, and I don't see this anywhere else. But I'm going to say the last theory is that she was killed

by her husband. The NYPD did investigate Ron and as I I've already said several times, all we know about his wife is from him and her family. But the NYPD looked into him and they ruled him out at some point in their investigation. I don't know how. I don't know what they had, but there's some there's there's more red flags that are coming up. One red flag is that there was a call made from their home phone at four am on the eleventh to his cell phone.

He has explained that away as saying, well, I don't remember doing it, but I must have got up in the middle of the night and checked my voicemail. Now I know a lot of people are saying, why would you check your voicemail without your cell phone? Well it was it was thearly two thousand's. Every phone companies were charging you minutes for all usage. Call your voicemail that counts against your minutes. So you know, I worked for

a cell phone company at that point. We used to tell people check your voicemail from your own phone to save your minutes. So that that's that's kind of understandable. I can kind of get that. I can kind of get it accept that. What the problem with that is is that, you know, I'm trying to put myself back into the year two thousand one. You would think you'd be able to just look at his cell phone without actually dialing anything and tell him telling you I thought

of that too, I'm not even. I can't even. I mean, that's suddenly we're going to branch out into a thousand eventualities if we started saying, well, maybe he was out of battery, or maybe this was going on, or that was maybe they were in a dead spot. I mean, there's there's all kinds of things that I've I've kind

of held back from some of that. I guess I will just say that I don't know about you guys, but if I wake up in the middle of the night worried about my significant other enough at least to call my voicemail to be cognizant enough to call my voicemail from my home phone to check my voicemail. I'm gonna remember that the next morning. You would think, I'm not gonna just be like, oh, I guess I might have called my cell phone voicemail. He gonna remember. Some

people are different. Keep in mind, though, he got in around midnight and he had to get up and leave his house at like six or six thirty. So we're talking four hours of sleep to then go back sleep and sleep for a couple of I mean, I do,

I do that fairly regularly, I you know. But that's and again it's just me, but most people I know, I think we'll say things like I woke up in the middle of I I was so worried about this person, and then I went back to sleep, not even like I got out of bed and went on the phone and called my voicemail and remembered to not use my cell phone and bla bla bla bah. Yeah. So for me, that's a it's a red flag a little bit. But the other thing is to I have a phone, she

have a cell phone. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if she had a cell of her own. I haven't seen anything about that. Yeah, I haven't seen anything about it either. I mean, and and in two thousand one, I mean, cell phone usage was not nearly as ubiquitous as it is today. No, it may have been that he had splurged and got one, or maybe he had one from work, but she didn't get one or didn't qualify for one through work. I mean, there's yeah, I mean not, it wasn't nearly as vlet let's let's go

on though. Here's the fact I've been holding back. Oh yeah, I'm I'm a jerk like that. Yeah, yeah, I I talked about a little bit that it wasn't all sunshine and roses between them. Okay, do you remember that charge that she filed that then backfired and ended up as a charge against her. Okay, she had a court appointment on the morning of the tenth for that charge. So Ron had left the apartment to go to work at like noon or one, but that morning they had gone

to court. He went with her, He went with her, and you know, it didn't go well, and she she pled not guilty, saying that she didn't do it. So, of course, now she's got to face the whole litany

of the legal process. What I'm about to tell you, though, as with so many other things in this story, that the family is denying but the NYPD police report is saying, is that the couple had a big fight or a huge fight outside of the courtroom after the fact, and Ron was really mad at her because she was abusing drugs and alcohol and she was having sex with other people bisexual, So either she was having sex with women

or she was having sex with men or both. I don't know, But in that accounting, according to the NYPD, she got angry and she stormed out of the courthouse and she left. He denies, of course, Oh yeah, he he says, that's not what happened at all. That that that and under his recounting the whole thing, they had lunch before he left to go to work. Correct. Correct, Yeah, they had lunch and they went out for lunch. Correct. Does anybody know what restaurants they went to? Is there

any way to back that up? Again? He didn't say. My biggest gripe with his entire story is he didn't say, and that's what's gonna lead us into the end of this theory, which may make it us in trouble. And made lights and fires. I don't know, but what what if Ron killed her. He's the only person who has said most of the information we've given, and he's the only one who said that she wasn't home that night of the tenth, And that's entirely possible. But let's flip

the tables. What if he wasn't home. What if he was out late and she called his cell phone at four am and he came to a very angry wife saying, where the hell have you been? I mean, it's it's completely possible. Or or she called him and said where are you? And he was still angry from the morning, came home drunk and angry, annoyed even more because she had the gall to call him to see where he was. And then something happened, whether intentional or not, something happened

and and she died from it. Or I mean, there's there's also because again he censored everything. Maybe she was having an affair with someone male or female. And by the way, if you ever get on the forums, the forums are lit up with the fact that she was obviously having an affair because she was out not with her husband, And I don't buy into that so much.

But let's say she was having an affair. Let's say he knew she was having an affair and she got home late or he got home late drunk, same scenario plays out. They get into a fight because everything is brewing, and suddenly she dies for what what ever happens, and then he's forced to try and hide a body, and it just happens to be that this city goes crazy the next day and it, as Joe pointed out, maybe that makes it easier to hide a body. I don't know.

I mean really, my point is is we only have one source of information, and we we have railed against that on so many stories before. I have to be honest, this one is such a heart wrenching story that it took me about five reads through everything before suddenly the source stood out as possibly the suspect. And that's why I think that most people have not pointed at Ron because he is viewed as collateral damage. He's the victim. Yeah,

and either I'm right or wrong. I really hope I'm wrong, but I kind of I I kind of doubt that he has he killed her, but I think it's more likely that somebody else killed or some random type of person. And I don't know if Ron's seeing anyone. I haven't seen anything. The last article about the story, I think it's two years old, and which would make that ten plus year ten twelve years later he's did and they

don't mention that. What you think they would if he had finally met somebody again, And they don't say that, which makes you think that maybe he really is the victim in this story. Yeah, I think the thing about it is is that when the last heard of Ron's Ron, I don't know if they owned or rented that apartment in the battery. I think they rented the rented it. He gave up the apartment and moved in with her

parents and upstate New York. And the thing about it is is that if he went ballistic on her one night and wind up killing her accidentally or not, and there almost certainly would have been a prior history of domestic violence, and since she was so close to her family, they wouldn't have known about it, and he probably wouldn't be all that welcome in their home. It's hard, it's always hard to tell what's domestic abuse. But yeah, maybe I don't even want to speculate. Maybe she would have

kept it quiet. I don't know, and there's no obviously, there's no reason to think that he was he was abusive. I think, honestly, the best scenario in this is that she was out late night, just crashed on someone's couch, left her stuff there, came home, the buildings were collapsing, and she thought, oh, I better go help, and then died trying to rescue people. And that person didn't know who she was, so they couldn't say I found your wife's bags in my apartment when she crashed on my couch. Yeah.

Well yeah, but that's the other thing, that the bag is going to have a receipt in it. No, it isn't wallet. Yeah, I mean I how many times do you get a receipt and you throw it in the trash can as you look out of the store. I never do that. I saw in the trash can. I want to get home. I do it all the time. I just asked for no receipt. But in those days,

you do, you would you always got to receipt. But most people, as you know, I worked in retail about that time, and nine times out of ten you would say, do you went through a seat with you were in the bag? And they would say with me, please, with me, please, with me, please, and then that stuff in their pocket. Yeah, or they stuck it in their wallet and then came home and put it in there, you know, little ledger or whatever. My parents did this stuff in the bag.

You know. I'm dealing with it when I get but yeah, but but it may have been on her. But it's but I I I have to say, and I understand why the why the family wants to believe that she heroically died in the trade center. And that's the Yeah, that's that's what makes you feel better to fall asleep at night. Yeah, I guess, sorry not to be labor

the point too much. In fairness, If it wasn't her that was in the surveillance tape on the eleventh, she could have been walking home, saw the plane crash, had her bags, ran in with bags, dropped them or drop them on the street or whatever. I'm sure that all of the stuff that was left on the streets by people trying to save people wasn't inventory super well yeah, you know, and may have been or yeah, I was

just too trashed to really be worth saving. But but again, the problem I had, the big hitch They have with that story is that no one knows who she spent the night with or where she spent the night at. But again, come forward, I have got to admit that I have met somebody and had too much to drink and crashed on their couch and woke up in the morning and they were still crashed out, and I went where am I I gotta go? And it's not like I met them and I gave him all the impertinent

details the night before. All I knew was my name was Steve, and I was some silly look dude with a goatee, and then I beat feet before they woke up. In fairness, possibly there weren't posters of you posted around, right that person would see that poster and think, oh, that's that's that girl. Also, in fairness, you don't necessarily go to the bar with bags full of comforters and bedding and stuff. That's the other thing that's a little odd.

Think I don't know. There's I think there's just so much odd with this story that there's not a good answer. But I just I think that for my own peace of mind, I want to believe that she she rushed to help. She yeah, she died helping people, and I want to believe that too. That's the way I want to believe that, but I don't quite believe it. Yeah, I have a hard time. There's so many other things.

But before we beliebor anything else and we go down any other rabbit holes, we're going to call this one done. So for anybody who wants to listen to any other episodes we have, or read any of the links pertaining to this story, you can find all of that on our website, which just thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can find us on iTunes if you, and most people do. But if you find us on iTunes, do please take the time to subscribe, leave a comment and a rating,

because that will help other people find us. We are going to be on just about every streaming service known to man at this point, I don't even know how many there are out there, but I thou i've stopped looking, stop adding us. Find us on there. You can subscribe through whatever podcast app you look use. We're on Facebook, so we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group

again this story. I had a great conversation on the Facebook group a couple of months back, which is why it's finally coming through because I was doing all the back research on it. But those are the kind of things that you'll get to read and participate in on the group we are on Twitter. It's Thinking without the G sideways is here's that character limit, silly Twitter. You can always go ahead and send us an email if you want to send us an email. Our email address

is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Oh and of course we have shirts and mugs and all of that virgandise. Yes, that is all available through Zazzle. If you go to our website on the right hand side, you'll see a link to Zazzle. It's right above the donate button and you can get anything off of there. And I think that's all of the good information that we need to give all of these good people, right guys, Yeah, okay, Well another mysteries saw that we overlooked one possibility. Well

we did. Yeah, wow, Hello, let's staring you right in the face, dude, always yeah, always staring at us in the face. Well, okay, anyway, that's it, ladies and gentlemen. It's been great. And wait with bated breath, next week we have a big reveal. It's so good. It's gonna be great. It's so good, it's gonna be great. But we're not gonna tell you about it now. We're gonna make you wait another seven days.