Thinking Sideways: Disappearance of Harold Holt

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and also don't forget to use the code sideways. Up up the idea I don't know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey there, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as usually joined by Devin, whose words he's stealing, and Joe, who is disgusted by the fact that Steve suddenly, without knowing what he was doing, shorten a word because I actually hate that stuff. I have no idea how that came out of my face. No, I didn't mean to

do that. That really disturbs me. I'm oh, shut up. This week, as usual, we have another mystery for you. We're going to talk about the disappearance of Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt, who disappeared on the seventeenth of December. And this was, of course a listeners suggestion was suggested by Alex Amy and Carla and David and Penelope and a whole bunch of other people whose names we did not write down because we literally ran out of room

in the spreadsheet. Yeah, unfortunately, sorry guys, but yeah, this is one of our most it's one of our most popular ones. And I gotta be honest with you, I never intended to cover this story. I actually call this Harold hold a k A. It's Joe's fault because there was a little bit of a communication issue when it came time to do the Harold Wilson episode, and I thought we were doing Harold Holt that I did a whole bunch of research. I could throw that away. I

couldn't throw it away because I found a freaking treasure troll. Sorry, that was my fault. It turned out that it was kind of an interesting case. It turned out it was more interesting that I thought. Is just about our story. So it's Cyberus, sharks and aliens. Doesn't get a lot better than this, It's true. Sorry, thanks for spoiling it. All right, you heard that. Well, let's let's talk about the subject of our story tonight. Harold Holt he was

an Australian man. He was eight and went to law school. After he graduated from law school, he practiced up until the early sixties. But he was also very interested in politics and was involved. He was a member of the Liberal Party of Australia. And before anybody freaks out on me, yes, I do know that the Liberal Party of Australia didn't actually exist at the time, and instead he joined the United Australia Party, but it was folded in and reconfigured in so I just say he joined it. That sounds

good enough to me. Yeah, Parliamentary politics, it's if you're an American it's kind of hard to fathom it, but the parties come and go a lout quicker they do. You know what's funny is that I was involved in a high school program where I dealt a lot with like parliamentary procedure, and I thought it was really interesting at the time, and now, oh my good lord, it's like pulling teeth what. It's a long story. It was basically debate. I have some follow up questions for off

the record. So Harold Holt, he's very He's very active in his party, and he held quite a few different positions over the course of his career, which spanned for more than thirty years. He was a very four I would consider him a very forward thinking and very liberal politician. He during his time of service he was responsible for. One of the things was the slow deconstruction of the

White Australia Policy, which was a policy. I shouldn't make a laugh at that, but it was a policy that was designed to prevent the immigration of anyone to Australia who was not white. And it's one of those very big, overarching government things that people in certain positions try to protect themselves with. And if you're interested, I would read

about that, because it's got a very storied history. I think sometimes we laugh at stuff like that because it just seemed so insane that anybody would have ever done something like that. How it seems absurd, but it did happen and it was horrible. So well, yeah, a lot of that stuff came out of the eugenics craze. Oh yeah, yeah, that's one of many places. I was here in America too.

I mean the same thing. I mean, it's it's interesting to read what people wrote in those days, and a lot of white Americans, for example, well, I'm sure white people in Australian various other plays, Europeans in general, white Cappians. They thought, for example, that Italians were actually not white people, which I guess they are a little bit darker skin than we are, but I mean they thought like an

entirely different race. And the point that Joe is getting at is what a series of foolishness like to all of it's crazy. But so the white Australia policy was. It was something that Harold Holt realized was not a good idea, and he helped slowly deconstruct that through a number of different ways. After about thirty years of service. Harold Holt was elected leader of the Liberal Party and that was in the beginning of nineteen sixty six. He was in that put him into the Prime Minister position.

He was officially in office for only two years, but he did a lot of things during that time, some good, some bad. Uh. Some of the good things that he did was again he put one of the final nails in the White Australian policy. He pulled the Australian dollar away from being tied to the British sterling, which I know that the Australian dollar it only started in the beginning of sixties six, but he just he broke it away. That was one of the things he did for inflation reasons,

if I remember the reason he did it. But you know, he also he did things for Aboriginal Australians for their rights. So he did a lot of good things, but he also did some not very good things, such as he supported the United States President Lyndon B. Johnson in his uh involvement in the Vietnam War and the first sideways on him. Well yeah, but I mean it's like you say,

saying that Vietnam was not good. I realized a lot of people think it was not good From from a public views standpoint, it wasn't a good thing because in the beginning the Australian people were for it, and he's famously made the statement all the way with lb J, which was apparently very offhanded, came back to bite him in the butt. But you know, after a couple of years and he keeps sending all these these guys over there, it's public sentiment turned against it. So that's that's why

I just set here in the States. I mean, it's not very much. So you know, it wasn't just in Australia. I didn't mean it was like that didn't mean it was like an evil thing to do, but it was like, but yeah, it was not popular that in a long term, it was not popular is the right word he used. Absolutely, he does this, like I said, he's doing things that are good, he's doing things that are bad. He is he's a he's a human, he's a normal basically, he's

being a normal politician. Well also, you know, you gotta remember too that he was ahead of a party which you know, had certain policies in place, and so he was kind of bound by most of that stuff. I mean, yeah, that's part of it. And you know, so he was doing what he thought was right for his people and his country. But he was, like I said, making good

decisions and bad decisions. And that also extended again being a human being to his personal life, and there was a lot of what now we would refer to as kind of questionable judgment. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm going. It's perfectly fine because you'll hear about that stuff a lot. Let's talk about a very important person in his life, which would be his wife. Her name is Zara Holt. Originally it's Nie Dickens. She and Harold Holt met. Did I say that wrong? No, it's just a weird way

to say it, Okay. Her maiden name was YadA, YadA YadA. They met in college and they dated, but they ended up having a big fight at one point and they broke up and she moved away and she ended up in marrying another man. She had three children with him, Nicholas was born in ninety seven, and then a set of twins, Sam and Andrew, who were born in nineteen nine. Things weren't such so great in their marriage, and eventually she divorced James fell was the man that she had married.

She divorced James Fell and then ended up marrying Harold Holt in nineteen And I'm not going to go into it, but there is a speculation that maybe the twins were actually Harold Holtz. I don't know. I don't know what's based on. I didn't do any digging on that. Called DNA testing. We can find out there is. I can tell you one thing that I know about world politics is there's a lot of speculation about who might be the father or mother of who everybody, Yeah, just about anybody.

I've seen a lot recently with the whole Fidel Castro, so that been really interesting. And then there's some speculation over the actual parentage of Prince Henry. And I mean it's just everybody just you know, is going to say what they're going to say. Yeah, that's yeah. I think Prince Henry looks a lot like Charles to me, I don't know. I think I've got no comment. Okay, I can never keep it straight. Which one is the older one? That's m Williams because she's waiting for theosition Harry's the

red head. Okay, maybe it's William that I'm thinking about Harry doesn't. Yeah, Harry is more reddish, share and you're right, he does look a lot different. Yeah's ginger. Yeah, And like, didn't Diana have a bodyguard who was a red headed guy? So I would have never expected Princess Diana to make an appearance in a Harold Whole episode, But apparently that just happened part of the common Sorry, yeah, we're getting a little off topic. Let's go back to the story.

Let's go back to the story. Let's talk about Harold Holt, who was a ladies man, and, as is so often the case with a guy who's calling the ladies man, he was not faithful to his wife. He had quite a few affairs. Zara was aware of them. She I watched a great interview. I don't know if you guys got a chance to watch the video with her, but she talks very candidly about the fact that she knew

and she just looked the other way. You know, some it's some people are she loved him, and that was you know, that was kind of well, if you're gonna take me, you're gonna take Harold, you're gonna take this as as well. I don't get it, but that's the decision she made, and that's the way it was. So he was known to to have affairs. So that having been said, because that that's something that will play into

part of our stuff when we come into theories. Let's move to two days before Harold Holt disappears, which is the fifteen of December, and he opens a novelope of her breakfast and there's five orange pips. No. Actually, but he would have been for sixty. Yeah, he was in the sixties because he was born in nineteen o eight. This is nineteen six. He would have sh he had to be sixty unless he was born yeah, okay, so so okay, So we're looking at the fifteenth of December

nineteen sixty seven. And actually, before we go into the story, I want to give a gigantic shout out set of kudos to the National Archives of Australia because they did an amazing job of preserving documentation about Harold's Hole and making them accessible and making them which totally thinks that we run into a lot. It's not that the documentation isn't there, it's just that it's real hard for people to get reading through that stuff. It is fantastic thank

you National Archives of Australia. And by the way, if you're listening, send us an email because I want your help getting some information on the envy joey. Uh. She still hadn't let that one go. Okay, So on the fift he travels from Melbourne to his home in Ports which is on the southern coast of Australia. He's there for a night and then he that night he goes over to a friend's house or actually it's a neighbor's

house to have drinks. That neighbor's name is Marjorie Gillespie, and Marjorie Gillespie is one of the players in our story because not only was she a neighbor, he was also having an affair with her. And that's confirmed she has she admitted it eventually, or did come out and say yes that actually a Chinese spy in an alien too. Write No, actually those two didn't happen. You need to stop reading somebody comics. So the next day, the sixteen

wasn't all that eventful. Harold Holt goes over to a friend's and plays a tennis so we didn't apparently play a very good game. Wasn't up to his usual stands anyway, because he had suffered a shoulder injury, which it sounds like he had either finished treatment for or was still getting treatment for. Stanny Is it was actually an old injury that just flared up from time to time. I honestly cannot say which it is because I hear it

back and forth and I can't. I never I've looked through all those archived documents that I could never find anything that confirms it. I know it exists because the man that he played tennis with was a doctor who talked about it but in to the police later on. But I don't know exactly where he got that injury. But he then later that day his stepson and the stepson's wife come over, bring his granddaughter over for a little while, and then they leave. So not really a

big day. His stepson possible son, Yes, it was one of the twins. I don't remember which twin, but it was one of the twin boys it had come over. I can't but like I said, I don't remember which one of the two. But then we moved to the seventeen and on that day Harold Holt got up. He talked to his housekeeper slash maid who brought him breakfast, and he said he had plans and what those plans were was he was going to watch the cutter called the Lively Lady, which was piloted by Alec Rose, arrive

and sail through the port. Philip Head, what what's the what's the cutter? Suth? Cutter is a ship. It's a sailboat. It's so Alec Rose was sailing around the world by himself in nineteen sixties six and sixty seven or no, sixties seven to sixty eight. His boat is actually still around. It's in a marine I think as a kind of a museum piece. You can actually go on to it. But he was sailing that boat around the world, so

it was something to see. Yeah, oh yeah, I know a lot of people turned out to answer you a question. What the cutter is is? It's a It's a sail rig. You know what a sloop is. A slip is a single masted sail boat that's got a that's got a mainsail and a four sail. Right, so cutter rig is also single masted. These the masters that have been stepped a little further back and it has two head sails instead of one, so that's the difference. That's the cutter.

And by the way, when he when he did is around the World cruise in sixty seven, when he came into Australia, it was no longer a cutter because he had added a mask to it. It was then it was at that time a catch. So catches a is a two masted rig with the tall mast in front and the short mast in the rear. So I just apologized, show you've been talking and I've understood none of that, but I believe you. I don't know enough that I understand that he took it from one to two mass

and that changed the style of the boat. But after they no longer a cutter. It's catch. So the point is this is a this is a thing to see. And what he's gonna do is he goes ahead and he called os Marjorie Gillespie and he invites her to join him to watch this happen. She says, yeah, sure, So he shows up at her house at about eleven o'clock in the morning and then her and her daughter Viner, as well as two young men that were at the house,

Martin Simpson and Alan Stewart. Simpson was dating Viner the daughter, and then Alan Stewart was just a family friend. But the group go to a spot that Harold Holt has access to because of his position. It's not it's not open land that anybody can go to. It's inside of its military land from what the way. Yeah, and they had to go through like an mp A post and you know they raised the gate and let you go through. It was that kind of scenario. But he had friends

in high places and so he could go there. Yes, wasn't he the prime minister? Yes? Sorry, I just like that. You're like, as the prime minister, he had friends and high place. He was the high place. But prime minister he would have access to anywhere. But but well, I mean he technically shouldn't have had access to it, is what I understand. Like, yeah, he could go there, but he really shouldn't have been told. Sure, Harold maybe like swim there right on official business he would have been

allowed access, correct, but not on a recreational basis. That's why I see it. Sorry, I just love that term though at the prime minister he had friends in high places. Ye. So so the place that they're going is um Cheviot Beach. Everyone, so they go there, they parked, they walked down to the water, and it's at this point that from all of the records of the conversations that have been had with the people after the fact, everybody knows that the seas were kind of rough. There was a bunch of

driftwood in the water. It wasn't the nicest day at the beach. Martin Simpson. December, but it's Australia, so it's December there, okay, on the side down summer um. So Martin Simpson, he walks into the water, but he stops when he's knee deep because he can feel an undertow. Harold Holt, however, says to some at least one person, if not multiple people in the party, I know this beach like the back of my hand, at which point he walks into the water and begins swimming away, presumably

not in like his suit. He's in a swimsuit. He's in a swim trunks. Yeah, what did you think I just pictured him. No, he's in He's in his swimsuit. Was the end of the sixties, man, It was like in a free love And actually that wasn't what was happening, especially on a military base. Probably, But so then Alan Steward, he says, well, you know, I've got If Harold Holt is going to do this, I gotta follow him into

the water. But he stops when he's up to about his armpits in the water because he can feel the undertow on his legs and he can feel it getting stronger, so he doesn't go in. Now I should explain here real briefly, that Harold Holt was in the water a lot. It wasn't as if he was some old guy who was completely out of shape and had no reason to be in the serf swim a lot. He loves spear fishing, like he was in the water and in relatively good shape. So just so you don't think, well he's he's just

got You shouldn't been there. That's not what's going on at all. So Marjorie, Marjorie Gillespie, she stayed on the beach, and she actually says that she watched Harold Holt swim out. She said that, in her words, she watched him until the waters around him got very turbulent and appeared to almost boil. I mean, I guess that's extremely rough seas, is what she's describing at which point she lost sight

of him. Alan Stewart had just walked and walked up to her just you know, moments or a minute after that, and he started scanning the water with her looking for Harold Holp when they couldn't see him, and they hadn't spotted him. After several minutes, they had a feeling that something bad was going on, and so Alan went ahead and ran back up to the cars that they had driven there, and drove to the guard shack that they had been given entry via. Really, let's set off a

search and rescue operation basically immediately. I kind of like the concept of like, oh yeah, of course, Mr Prime Minister, no problem, Yeah, there will be no safety net for you whatsoever. You just go do whatever you want a problem. I love that concept. Actually, it was a little more relaxed back and then must especially I mean by that time, of course, in America it was all secret service all the time, you know, but in other countries not nearly,

because we had had the JFK assassinations. Yeah, absolutely, but Australia was still let's fine, no, do what you want, come and get me Chinese good level, okay, So yep. So the search of rescue show up within it sounds like to me within twenty to forty minutes. Divers. There's three divers around the scene. You would, yeah, well, these guys happened to be close by, and so they showed up. But they said that when they got in the water, the seas were so rough that they were being shoved

back and forth in underwater. They had almost no visibility because of all the sand that was being kicked up. And if you watch the film footage of them, they've actually got ropes tied to themselves anchored on the beach so that the undertow doesn't suck them out. In a way, the turbulence and shallow water near a beach is a lot different you getting deeper water, it's a lot nicer, but close to the shore it is pretty rough and

all kinds of stuff. Whereas you know, go out a couple hundred feet and it's not nearly as bad, right, But they were having a hard time getting out anywhere, just because it was so so bad. There are then then, of course more people show up. They're in boats there on land looking as well as in helicopters that are flying over the area looking for Harold Holt. They continue

to look until it until dark. The next day they go back and they continue the same operation looking for him, and at the close of the second day, which would have been the eighteen, they've found nobody. On the nineteen the government comes out and officially announces that they presume that Harold Holt is dead and on the two December of funeral is held for him. There it is. It

is kind of quick. There was no official investigation, partially because everybody pretty pretty much figured that he got sucked under and he drowned when his body was pulled out to see. Also there's there was the law at the time in Australia prevented the corner from launching an investigation without a body, and that that sets that sets conspiracy

theorists hair on fire. Now, eventually the laws were changed and in two thousand and three they did launch an investigation, you know, almost four thirty some years later, at which point they concluded that he drowned and he was his body was probably pulled out to sea or was taken by sharks, because there are sharks in the area. It's

Australia where everything is trying to eat you. So actually I guess the study the inquest concluded in two thousand five, not two thousand threes when they started a bunch of inquests. But Harold Holds finished in two thousand and five. But you know, so that's the official story. However, the Internet does not believe that, and the world has come up with a million versions of what actually happened to Harold does the internet? Is the Internet ever happy with anything?

Not typically, I mean, I write all kinds of things in the Internet is never happy with any of it. So I take that as a sign of the times. Yeah, so's so, I guess that that's the sign that we should go into theories. Before we start theories, let's take a quick break. The forest is dark, the air is heavy, the rain constant. All around you swarm a little flies, But when showing the bear's patch of skin, you love

to be able to give up and go home. But the old woman in charge of the village warned you what would happen if you came home empty handed again? So you sit and you sit, waiting, hoping that the rain will end. Horn animal will wander by, all unaware, but at the same time dreaming of a time in the future. When you won't have to fear the old woman and the food will really just come to you. Thankfully, for us, we don't live in that dark forest or that time, and the food does come to courtesy of

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home cooked meals with Blue Apron. So don't wait, go there today. That's blue Apron dot com slash thinking. Blue Apron a better way to cook and never sit waiting in the forest again. And we're back. We should Let's just swim right into the theories theory number one. I hate that women theories swimming theories. Okay, come up with something better. Let's do theories. Let's okay, let's do a

cannonball in the theories. Let's dive into it. Let's let the gentle undertow of theories pull us into its sweet embrace. Perfect alright, head out of the surf. Spare us a few theories. There we go. All of these are all off the tongue. Okay. So theory number one suicide, because it's always suicide, always. So this theory says that Harold Holt knew that for some reason, he was in trouble, and he decided that the solution was to take his own life, I guess, to avoid whatever disgrace that was

gonna bring to him. And the suicide theories actually split into two causes, as in the things that drove him to do it? Okay. Cause number one is Marjorie Gillespie, Okay, okay.

It is supposedly said that she had told Harold Hold, or she had told others, that she intended to file for divorce because she was as well as Harold Hold, she was married, and she was going to file for divorce, and she was gonna name him as a co respondent, which equates to co adulterer or cheater, as in, this is the person I've been having the affair with why. I don't know why you would put that on the paperwork, but according to the theory, that's what she was gonna do.

But it sounds like it was pretty commonly known that he was already, you know, doing a deed with her. That's very well, if not with her with several other ladies. Yes, doesn't sound like he would have really rocked his world all that much. I am in complete and utter agreement with you on that. It is it doesn't make any sense that he would suddenly be thrown sideways by that um.

So that then text takes us to theory number two, or part number two of this theory, which is part B of the Your Medicare Part D program Wait that I've been watched too with tv UM. The second part of the suicide theory, or the second cause is that there was problems in his political party that we're getting away from him and going to cause him disgrace. So there was political infighting going on, and there was talk

of a split in the Liberal Party. There were two people, at least two people who were really feuding, and I apologize if I mispronounced the names, but there are McEwen and McMahon. I believe it's how you pronounced them. McMahon became Prime minister years later. But yeah, so that these two guys, so McMahon and and McEwen, they're having this political infighting and there's talk about the group splitting. They're bickering.

I mean really they're bickering. They're going at each other's throat and read some of the correspondence and as with all politics, it just seems really petty after the fact. How dare you say I said that. I never said that, But this is just the sort of stuff is par for the course in politics. Yeah. Hole. They had been in politics for thirty years. Do you think he had

never seen this? He had gone through the whole thing where the United Australia Party had folded and been then morphed into the party that he is part of now, Like this is not the first time this crap has gone on. And it's like, even if his party goes away and he's no like a prime minister, still keeps his job in Parliament and you know, no matter what is, his pension is not a danger, so no worries. So both of the suicide theories don't really make any sense.

It's a little confusing to me as to how that would be. But people say that he intentionally swam out in very high surf knowing that he would not be to go past his limit, knowing he couldn't come back. It might be that you never know what's going on with the guy. I mean, maybe like the other Herald we just talked about, like three weeks ago, perhaps Loundernet, Yeah, like weeks ago. Yeah. Uh. Maybe like the other Herald, maybe his mental faculties were going although nobody said anything

about that about him marbles or anything like that. But well, if there's one thing I've learned from doing this podcast for years, um, it's that we get emails. Every time suicide is a theory. We get at least one email saying yeah, but suicide isn't always logical, are not always obvious? Yeah, And you know my my of course, my gut reaction is like, okay, find so he committed suicide, But like, why I invite your mistress along? Why you know, why just be like, oh, there's a bunch of people standing

right here, I'm just going to do this. But I also like, I also you know, know that there's no telling what's going through someone's head. So I don't I don't believe the suicide theory. But also it's one of those ones where I feel like I just can never discount it at this point. Okay, No, that that that I can't. I'll let that go. It's the second most likely of these theories. I think it's the third most

likely myself. Well, I put it actually on. Well, no, there's a lot of bad theories in this so yeah, it does kind of float to the top. Okay, let's move to our next theory, which is that Harold Holt was actually a Chinese sleeper agent. So this is fun and it's great, and it came from a man named Robert Titcomb Actually will not initially because in the beginning he gave the information to an author named Anthony Gray

who and wrote a book. But supposedly Harold Holt had always been a Chinese sympathizer and for some reason in nineteen sixty seven decided that it was time to leave Sunny Australia and returned to the People's Republic of China. And how did they get in there? Well, obviously they used a submarine, because that's how the Chinese always take

people away. Well, I guess it actually is a good way to infiltrate nextfil trade people not in that space though, Well, you don't usually do that kind of operation in the daytime or when there's like a huge spectacle of a boat in crowdswhere you know where there's you've invited. I mean, because the thing is he explicitly called his lady friend and said, do you want to come? Right? So, so the theory says that the Chinese to Chinese divers or frog manage you'll see it called, which I always love

that name. I don't know why, but I like it. I don't know where frog man came from. It is a name, it is a good like it. Yeah, so they they swim, they find whole How the hell they find him in that rough water in that area I don't know in Chevyott Beach, but they do. And I guess they used the buddy system to keep him with air as they take him back to the mini sub the Actually they actually could have brought him a set of tanks too, if they really had planned this out,

that's what they would have done. I'm true that the hard party is that was as rough as the water was reportedly was how you would find a guy. Well, actually he he could have. He was a strong swim with it was a big undertow He could actually easily have gotten out of the whole churned up area next to the shore and gotten out in clearer waters and then Ronnie Wood with him. But again, you know, actually

making that meet up would be kind of tricky. And there's also been some stuff that supposedly there's been investigations that and I will be honest, I've seen this as cursory statements and I've never actually dug into him, but there's things that people say, well, they've looked into it, and there's no way that a submarine could have gotten anywhere close enough based on the depth of the water

in that area. But then that's why they always call it a mini sub, which I don't even know what is a mini sub A small If you say a small sub, that's what it is. I don't know what you wanted for me, Like a mini horses, just a small horse. I don't know who you That's what many means. It's like a mini Cooper is just a small Bradley Cooper. But I mean mini subs could be a one man sub. There can be a six man sub, atten man sub. You know, they can be actually decent sized, could it?

Could it be the equivalent of what are those silly little underwater scooter things that you see in the James Bond. That's not a sub, Okay, I was hoping. I mean that would actually be a great way to get your diver close in and back out again. Had to use some of those things, the propulsion unit like, yeah, yeah, so something like that could be. It could be strapped down to the deck of the mini sub. Although in the late sixties, yeah, they had that stuff. Jack Cousto

was using that stuff on TV. Jack maybe he was who stole him? Yeah, he wasn't underwater treasure. Oh you're not that that was not a good French access our. Next theory is that Harold Holt simply did the whole thing as a giant put on, and he actually did it so that he could run away with a mistress. Another mistress. Well mistress, so we've we've can we hold off on that first second? I'm not quite actually done

with the Chinese. Please please, I don't want to talry about a mistress at all, So please tell me about this, you know, the whole sub thing. I mean, first of all, it's a bad day for it because there's gonna be a lot of boat traffic because for the fact, well now, I mean you got this, the sailboat that's coming in. Crowds of tens of thousands of people are lying and short of watch it. And you know that everybody with a boat, a private boat, is the o out there

on the water jetting around and stuff. It's it's it's it's a bad time to be doing your ex filtration operation. This is also right about sixty seven was not around the time with a great leap forward, not a great time to be in China. Great leap Forward. Yeah, you're gonna have to you have to refresh my memory and that. But yeah, I decided to like, you know, like sort of accelerates the whole Yes, the whole process of industrialization

and modernization. Uh was when the Great Leap forward happened? I get my history mixed up, But I don't know. I just don't think China was all that attractive with a place a place to defect. To know. Let me see, I'm gonna leave a sunny paradise for a very cold place wherecause we're an economy and shrinking and just like

it's just going awful. Yeah. Yeah. The thing about it is is it I don't If he actually truly was a Chinese agent and he defected, then obviously it didn't work out so well for him because the Chinese had two choices. One is they get a lot of publicity out of it. They paraded before the cameras and say, hey, look came with us. I know it's a great for them. Or the alternative to that is you don't tell a soul, you just get rid of him quietly. No, don't get

rid of him. The guy knows plenty of secrets. Pump him. You and Tero get the crap out of them for years, ring every everything you can out, and then you can quietly suppose. So obviously, you know, if it was the Chinese, which I doubt, then you know I didn't work out so well for you know what My favorite thing about the whole it was the China side theory is is it his son or his wife who made the best statement ever be a Chinese agent? He didn't even like

Chinese food. That was obviously just part of this cover. Obviously it was part of it about the mistress. Now loves talking about the mistress. That's a good that's a good point about the food and everything. But no, we can't devon Yeah, I mean exfil trading in that way. When he actually traveled abroad, it would have been very easy to actually have him jump ship. I mean actually even from Australia. There was just so many easier better ways to do it than swim it out into the ocean.

They're trying to rende be with some frog man and stuff. I mean, so yeah, point taking sure, Yeah, I think you got it. Yeah, So that's it for the Chinese for me, Okay, I think yeah, I think we're done without al right, so we're gonna go back to the mistress. So we have established the fact that Harold Holt was a womanizer, and we have established the fact that he

was known to have had affairs. So what's going to prompt a man to walk away from his entire career and everything that he's known and built up in his life. A pretty girl, a pretty new girl, which makes absolutely no se ends he had really been philandering as much as he wanted apparently, so it doesn't make any sense to leave all of the power and fame and money that he has has attained just for a new girl.

It doesn't it doesn't add up. Okay, So there's and some people say, well, he was he would have been ashamed if he had divorced Zara, But I don't know

that that's so much the case. And this is also in that weird transitional time frame in world and just reporting history where news agencies would say, well, you're a public figure and we'll talk about the things that you do based on your job, but but your personal life is still kind of your personal life, and why would we report on the fact that you are over here sleeping with the neighbor, because that's not our business. That's

your personal life. And that's that's in that transitional period where news media said, oh no, we were going to cover at all. Well, I also guess I just don't really understand the logic of like, you have a marriage for your public face and a wife who says great, go sleep with whoever you want, and you are in

the political realm that you want to be. You know, you're leading your group, you're affecting change, and then you're just like, oh, you know what, suddenly this arrangement isn't working for me, so I'm gonna go swim out into the ocean and take my own death like that. I don't understand that logic. Although one of the things about about the whole thing that makes no sense to me

is that there was indeed a riptide that day. But riptides are actually pretty easy to deal with, and Harold Holt, being an experienced swimmer, wouldn't know how to do that. So I think I think the point that when we hear the test the words of Marjorie Gillespie, when she says that the sea appeared to boil and there was a lot of driftwood, I think that what what's what she's getting at is that the search was crashing on him. So it's not so much I think that there was

the ripped tide. I think what they're getting at is he was hit and shoved underwater, and while underwater, then that riptide is what gets him, not you know, when he's swimming up top. Yeah, yeah, it's entirely possible. I mean, driftwood. You never know what sizes they're talking about, like that sticks. I mean I've seen driftwood, the trees, the co big trees,

the entire freaking fifty year old tree flow around. I have to assume when they were talking about driftwood in the Tide, I have to assume they were talking about smaller chunks, because I mean, and I was a little fool hardy, but swimming and surf where there's massive tree trunks floating around is, in my mind, the most idiotic thing you could ever do. I have seen some of the images from the time and the beach, and I got the impression that there was driftwood that was floating

around that was the diameter of your thigh. So that's that's a I don't know, I couldn't really tell the length, but I could get an idea. But that's a that's a hunk of wood. And you know, when you're swimming in the Caesar up and down, you don't see that coming. You have no idea that you're about to swim into a floating forest of wood that's going to clobber you. So but but I don't know, Joe, that's a great point.

I mean, it seems like maybe I don't even know what I'm trying to say here, But there's a lot of ways that that could have gone. There were a lot of things after you get him. Let's let's go to our next theory though, because this one makes a lot of no sense and I have absolutely not a clear idea of how this came about. But this theory says that either Harold Holt was part of or despised by the mr Asia drug syndicate and that is why he disappears. So it is a real thing, the mr

Asia drug syndicate. This is actually really this was actually a really interesting thing to read about. It kind of is so so because I was just gonna say, like, what kind of dummy names The thing that Joe or the mr Asia drug syndicate was started by a guy named Marty Johnstone and two other buddies of his whose

names escaped me at the moment. And these guys were low level thugs and criminals, but they happened to meet a marijuana a guy who had a bunch of marijuana who went by the name of Chinese Jack, and he

was importing pot. Once they got to dealing for him and getting all he was apparently importing literal, no joke, boatloads of weed, they their business took off and then they started selling um heroin and coke and the whole thing just went gang buster and up to the point that like the cops actually took this whole drug syndicate serious.

Well there's there's when you've got a couple of punks who were trying to deal dime bags versus guys who are dealing pounds and kilos and kilos and pounds of this stuff like mad so there and apparently they were

killing a bunch of people. There's a gentleman by the name of Terry Clark who was involved with them, and I have I feel like maybe Terry Clark inserted himself into the organization and sort of exerted control over it, and they are he and everybody else that was in the top of the organization had to flee Australia because Terry Clark pulled an Eddie Nash, remember Eddie Nash from the Wonderland Murders, where he was like going nuts and

just killing people in crazy coke benders. Well, he killed a bunch of people apparently in some plan or some coked out scheme to maintain control of the operation. So while I was killing people, who just happened to kill the Prime Minister. Well, you would think that. Except here's the thing that I don't understand is to how Harold hold shows up in the mr Asia drug syndicate. The syndicate didn't start till seventy three, which is about six years after Harold Holt disappeared. So how in the heck

he is linked to it? I don't know. Maybe um, he was Chinese. Jack met him, it was his dealer, and then off him. I don't know, Like the connection is so weird and it disappears that I don't know. I think you're confusing. The people are confusing the mr Asia drug Syndicate with the mr Asia sug syndicate. So that's probably what it is. Yeah, maybe okay, should we move on went on the funny drug fun drug syndicate story. Let's go to another fun theory, which is that it

was a UFO abduction. Yeah, I you know, I like this one, actually, do you? Yeah? It's written by our favorite reputable author. It really is so okay, So Devon's trying to give away the story here. The UFO connection showed up in a book by John Keel. You may remember John Keel. He wrote a book called Operation Trojan Horse, which is where Harold Holds disappearance ted Aliens comes from. But he also wrote a very famous book called The

Mothman Prophecy. Yeah. I found a copy of Operation Trojan Horse on the Internet and I did some scanning through it, and well it says that Harold hold His disappearance was predicted by the Elements. I like that you didn't put that in quotation marks though, because well, yeah, so, because because whatever. I don't know what that means. The elemental I don't know what that means. It's it's one damn sentence in that silly book, and I don't know what

it is. Do you guys have any could somebody explain it to me? Um? I would say the elementals are probably kind of like either spirits or you know, like like like sort of like the UK. Yeah. Yeah, but it's also am prophecy, so it's not just UFOs are probably like spirits didn't have at the world. They're like they've been here since the very beginning. Or maybe he's just talking about the periodic table of the elements. I'm not sure. The elementals could also be the name of

of Aliens. Based on what Joe said. I'm glad I didn't even bother to capitalize the word elemental. Okay, okay, fine, so probably not a UFO, but fine whatever. Yeah, I mean nobody saw any UFOs. I mean there could have been underwater UFOs. I suppose true, totally could have. They just they just got a recording of an underwater uf one record. There's only one recorded underwater siding that is in the Abyss the movie, so they just have they have a sound recording. Now. It's called the Bio. I

remember Wang, the Bio Twangs. That's the one that just came out like today. They're they're accounting for all those alien noises coming out of the something Marianna trend. Yes, I did see that come through that. I haven't had a chance to read up on that. Okay, you can just listen to it. It sounds literally like, uh exactly. What if somebody were like, hey, I need a sound effect for a monster in my like action film, I'd

be like, I have the one for you. This is this something that came from not Pacific Rim, but that crappy ar version Atlantic Rim. No, there was actually an Atlantic Rim. Yeah, yeah, there was a sequel there was. Okay, so probably not wufos. Yeah, okays, let's go Holy crap, we got a bunch more theories here. Next theory is that, in matter of fact, Harold Holt was actually killed prior

to the seventeenth and the whole thing is cover up. Okay, Actually, I guess I'm gonna bump my suicide theory down to three because I like this and you already said it wasn't three. Yeah. Okay. So there's a gentleman. His name is Gary Simons. He has made a claim and this is all on his website, Harold dash Holt dot com that well he means business with and this claim is that Harold Holt was killed and the reason was that

he would not support the construction of Pine Gap. Pine Gap, for anybody who doesn't know, is a joint Australian and US satellite ground station officially, which is the official, actual truth. So stop saying it, because that's really what it is. And we're totally on board with that, not an alien installations.

To stop asking one. I know, Simon's so no, but Simon says that it's because Holt wouldn't support the construction of Pine Gap, and that Pine Gap is actually some sort of secret operation base and he was involved in the removal of Harold Holt's body from Harold holtz residence

the night before. So on the night of the sixteenth, he was involved by taking Holt's body out of his house to a boat and then taking that boat out to meet another boat on the water, which then transported the body I guess to to chevy At Beach where it was going to be dumped and then um, but it wasn't found. So presumably it was eating my sharks or something. I really, I really, I'll be honest with you, Joe.

I don't know Simon's He sounds credible at times, like he makes statements that are rather credible and logical and seem to make sense, and then there are times that just it doesn't make any sense. Like he says he was involved in he was he was a member of the Australian Navy, and you know he listened stuff. But then how he went from swab in the deck to doing wet work, I can't figure out. It's actually so, Devin,

you're gonna get to narrate today. So Simmons has something on his website that describes it, and I would like you to read that for our listeners with an Australian accent, please we're As part of my duties, I engaged in several clandestine operations, one of which was the removal of the body of then Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt from his home out to a waiting fishing boat in the

night before it was reported he disappeared while swimming. So I okay, Well, so that's what he says on his website. He also invokes the second law, or the second law of the universe, as he calls it. He constantly invokes in second the second something of the universe, second rule, second law. But I tried, I really I read the guy's stuff and tried to give him a fair shake, and in the end I had to discounting because he

sounds a little crazy. Yeah. I've seen his website, and you know, I read that that letter that he sent. He has a copy of his Oh, he puts all his emails on his website. Yeah, this is a letter sent to the Inquest that was in two thousand three or five. Yes, he sent them. And actually, although a few of the claims in the letter we're kind of questionable, it actually appeared to be well written. And quite coherent.

And that's that's not that that's what I'm saying. I believe the guy at all, but some some stuff that he writes appeared is to be coherent. Yeah, and it's not written by a similiterate or total whack job or anything. Yeah, But at the same time he believes him outlandis saying, Yeah, that's why I I was, I really for a long time try to give him just you know, I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna read it, I'm gonna hear him out.

But there's a point where I had to just stop because it's I feel like it's a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs. And so I'm not really sure what to make of his statement. He makes a lot of statements about a lot of other things aside from Harold Hold. But I do like the idea of I'm always kind of into those ideas, like when we talk about plane crashes with the zombie plane idea where it's you know, everybody on there was actually just a corpse and it

was like it wasn't or it was a plant. Yeah, like everybody on the plane, right, So same with this, I'm always kind of drawn to these theories, whether they have good credit or not. I'm always drawn to the idea that that person wasn't actually at that place where they were reported to be. Why his lover would go along with it, I'm not totally sure, but well, why would she and three other young people and the guard

that was at the guard station. Like suddenly our cast of characters who need to be involved and agree to go along with it starts to grow. I guess she's the big question mark for me because, like the rest of them are, they're not close associations with him. So money helps a lot. But if you have a personal relationship with someone, I think usually you're a little less likely to do that. But it would explain maybe why it was her not the wife for instance. Maybe you know,

maybe she was easier to bribe. I don't know, but there were a lot of people involved. Also, if he had to remove the body transported down to a boot. No, I disagree with the method that he's proposing. I'm just saying I like the idea. I'm sorry. I think the idea is interesting that he that Harold hold could have died before and that it wasn't. No, it's an intriguing idea. I agree, but but like I still was saying that

the circle is fairly wide, but it gets wider. We're not just we're not just talking about the several people that went down to the beach with him, but the guys who had to go retrieved the body. And let's forget that he retrieved the body. That means somebody else murdered him, right, So then they went down to retrieved the body cofectly. He talked to his house has made

that morning she was at his residence. Supposedly, she was like, again, if I have to, they have to take the boat, or have to take the body down to a marina presumably or a beach, or somewhere where they could potentially be spotted by other people loading into a boat which goes out to another boat, which by the way, has more people on it. But they I mean, that doesn't have that that's not necessary. They could have pulled a car up to his house and throwing him in the boot.

I mean, the boat thing, I don't think it's necessary at all. That's what he's said disposing that. But that's what I'm saying is that I don't really give a crap about what this guy's claiming. I'm just saying that the concept of Harold Holt dying before. I agree that this whole transportation situation is dumb. That didn't happen. It is,

but I'm just saying that. I but since they got this sense of guys putting forth the theory that he was murdered ahead of time and his body was transported on the seventeen out to sea, he was murdered in the sixteenth, but his body was transferred during the night sixties seventeen, and then and then it becomes like you says, he is the only one who's making the claim that Hole was murdered prior to the seventeen, which is one of the whole thing out of the water. Right. Well,

except for that, I wouldn't believe. I mean, why would he come for. I mean, the people who would be have been paid to keep their mouth shut are presumably doing their job and keeping their dang mouth shut. Remarkably, nobody's killed him yet what's his name again? So I mean, I think, I think it's an interesting theory, but I agree that it wasn't Gary nothing. It doesn't make any sense.

So I'm willing to move on to the knick theory. Okay, So our next theory is that, in fact, Harold Holt was killed by the CIA, because the CIA is involved in everything. We were talking at one point about the fact that Harold Holt had come out in support of Lyndon B. Johnson and he was supporting the war effort

in Vietnam against the North Vietnamese. This theory says that through the course of sixty six and then into sixty seven, Holt B came began to have second thoughts, and he began to think that maybe this was a bad idea, and he should possibly reduce his troop forces that we're serving over there in an effort to stop that from happening, because that would be egg on the face of the

US president. These uh CIA went in and somehow assassinated him, whether they found him in the water, which we've already talked about the multitude of problems with that, or if they began some program of poisoning him so that he was in a weekend state when he went in the water, so that he would then naturally succumb. Whether it be that trip or another time when he was in the water, I don't know. But that's that's what this theory says. I I really would be surprised to see the c

I a step up to that level. Well, I I think so. But you know, again, you gotta remember this as Australia. It's as parliamentary politics. Holt wasn't just running off like a loose cannon doing whatever he felt like. It wasn't as he was a supreme commander who could say whatever he wanted to do. Now it was like, yeah, I mean he essentially, he essentially was a representative of his party. And so if he truly wanted to be out of Vietnam, and it was the whole policy was

popular with every single other person in his party. Remember, your prime minister, the most you want, you know, you don't necessarily want what's good for Australia. What you want to do is you want to hold your coalition together because that means you get to keep being Prime Minister. And so you don't want your coalition coming apart. So you're not going to defy your party. If your party is a major rift in it over you might try to heal it or whatever over the Vietnam thing. But again,

if he was turning against it. It's because public opinion was turning against it, many members of his own party were turning against it, removing himselves nothing in terms of you know, he's not pushes the button to stop it all. At the point, there's a lot of a lot of different people involved. So your point is this is also a dumb theory. Yeah, well yeah, and also well also

high summary ability. Well, and this is one of the things too, I mean, because we've heard the same thing with the Jfkigs assassination, which is a CIA, and you wanted him dead because he was wanted to pull he was going to gank us out of the world. Nobody has ever explained to me exactly why the c I was so heavily invested in the war in Vietnam. I mean, I never understood that. Nobody's ever explained that one to me. So we're gonna get a lot of emails on that.

We're going to set up a very special email address for Joe only, and we'll give that to you later on That email address is that theory is dumb at gmail dot com. Let's move on to our next theory. Our next theory is quite the opposite of this theory, and it is that Harold Holt was killed in a botched abduction attempt, and that abduction attempt was carried out by war not supports. What detractors is that the word I want to use people who are in opposition. So

these people were opposed to the war. And what they in this They were probably hippies who spelled like put you really. But there Their whole plan of attack here was they were going to abduct Harold hold and hold him hostage up until such point that he would say, we quit, We're getting out of Vietnam, at which point they would let him go with a joint and a daisy. Okay,

but that I made up most of that. But the theory is that he was It was an abduction of tent that went totally wrong, and the whole basis of the abduction was so that they could stop the war efforts. Yeah, And what happened was he was he was captive, and they were out of the room, and he spotted a tray full of brownies and he was hungry, so he

scoffed him down and he had a fatal overdose of brownies. Yeah, alright, So I think we had a little fun there, Uh, well, yeah, no, no, this is a serious no. You know what, Actually I like the Chinese theory better than this because it simply does not involve hippies. There's that, and also the you know, of course their plan was completely idiotic. It never would have actually worked. Well, it's silly to pluck him out of the water like that, Yeah, I mean, because well,

let's just not keep going down this road. Why don't we move to the last theory on our docket here. Our final theory is that the entire thing was a case of accidental drownding. For this, I believe that the best way to sum it up is that it is as simple as a man going out into the water when he shouldn't have and overestimating his abilities in that water and succumbing for to those elements for that mistake. Sure, I mean, and as you said, you know, you could

have gotten clocked on the head by a log. Great whites, you know, there's lots of in Australia. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop you on the great whites bit because that I've got I got a couple of things I want to share, and great Whites playing that. Okay, but anyway, But there are things that can get you out there. You swim into it like a school of jellyfish. Kelly's got a bad news. You go down. It is entirely possible.

It's really rough out to catch a wave. And I've swim in the ocean before, and you can get your wave in the face and suddenly, and if you get it at just the right time, or I guess I had to say wrong time, you can inhale a little water and that's bad news. Uh. And also, you know, I knew a guy when he died about maybe a year and a half ago, and he was swimming, a strong swimmer, very athletic, in great shape, about forty years old. It turns out his heart was a ticking time bomb

and he had a heart attack while swimming. And nobody ever would have expected this to happen, but it happened. I mean, he had a heart attack and then he's round, you know, and so it's possible that, you know, it could have been. He is a great prequel to several bits of information that I have about Harold Holt and the conditions that day. So let's talk about the conditions. Turns out, according to the locals. When the tides in that area turned, it wasn't uncommon to get a undertow

in the neighborhood of about ten knots. Not is equivalent roughly to about one mile an hour. One not one mile an hour roughly. Nobody give me. I knew Joe would do this too. So ten knots comes out to eleven point five miles per hour or eighteen point five kilometers per at per hour, which you know, it doesn't sound that fast to people who aren't thinking about it, but the normal person walks at about three miles per hour,

so you triple that. That's a good pace. I wanted to try and come up with something about you know, oh, well, if you think about how fast an Olympic runner goes, except Hussein Bolt goes at twenty miles per hour, so he kind of blew that water on me. I mean, okay, but you can't use him as like a I was

hoping to accepting the second How about the seventeenth fastest? Yeah, but to give you an idea of how bad then was, I've seen the helicopter footage flying over and it wasn't It was really bad, and there was lots of waves crashing around and those divers that we talked about in the beginning of When they went in for to look for the body, they had to wait until the twenty three December, six days after he had disappeared, before it was calm enough for them to comb the bottom, because

a lot of people thought, well, Harold Holds body got swept into the rocks on the bottom and it's probably wedged down there. It took that long before they could even get down there, and then of course they didn't find anything, um because he'd been abducted. Because he'd been abducted. Yet we we talked about the fact that he had the hurt shoulder um and oh Dr Edwards, that's the guy who he played tennis with, who had supported the

fact that yeah, it was still bothering him. And then there's the fact that m he apparently was having some other health issues because as he had collapsed earlier that year in parliament. Though that was everybody claimed that that

was from a vitamin deficiency. Though now people say, as you alluded to Joe with the guy that you knew about, that it was a heart problem and that that may have been why he felt or collapsed Holt had also been swimming as Chevot Beach earlier that year and had to be rescued because he had problems swimming in the surf. So there's a whole bunch of things, and it it's sad to say, but for me, it adds up to a guy who has past his prime and doesn't want to admit that he isn't as good as he was.

And damn it, I can make it through that. And I know this water, and he overestimated what he was capable have been like showing off, it could have been that. But I also it actually could have been that, like say an accident or a heart attack. It could have been that. Say if he hadn't gotten clocked by a log or attack lash arc or had a heart attack, it could have been that. If none of those things had happened, he could have gone out, swam around, come

right back. He was an experienced guy. He knew how to deal with riptides. There there are ways to deal with very simple. Yeah, oh yeah, it's easy. And so I think he could easily have survived the conditions of the day. I think probably something else happened well, But I also wonder if maybe he you know, if it's one of those situations where he's not feeling all that great once he gets out there, but he decides not to stop because he can do better, because he had

done some rather foolish things in the water. I think it was it was only like three years earlier that somebody had introduced him to spear fishing, and he was known for spear fishing and getting a fish with that, you know, pulling it off of the spear, a still bleeding fish, unzipping his wet suit, shoving that fish into his wet suit, and then still zipping it up in waters which have great white swimming around. And this isn't just like you know, here in the Pacific Northwest there's

a chance there might be a shark. Now there's totally sharks around and it's a known thing. So he does he exercises maybe not the best decision making while in the water. Yeah, he's uh, kind of like the guy who camped out with the bears up in Alaska. Well that you know that that guy is a whole another level of stupid. Oh yeah, definitely a whole another level,

but kind of similar in a sense. Though he got he thought that he had a special relationship with the sea, and he had like that guy thought he had a special relationship with the bears. It turns out in the end, well, now it's not true. He was a little bit deluted about that. Nature is still going to bite your face off. Yeah. Probably. Okay, that's all I have for theories. Do you guys have any other pet theories that we haven't talked about or

any thank me, thank I think political competitors. So what you're saying is is mcmuhn swam out and down. Harold didn't swam away and nobody saw it. He anticipated whole will be swimming there that day and the time he released his sharks into that bay, his cyber sharks, yea, his remote controls cyber shark drones. Or he could have been just hiding out in the surf with the scuba tank on under Yeah, no, I don't. I think it's likely that he just kind of overestimated his ability and

went out and was lost for the ages. Yeah, that's my top theory. I would say kind of like that theory. Actually, I really liked the idea that that he was part of a drug ring that didn't exist, because that just makes it mist more amazing. It was an alien drug ring that was set in the future, but they sent an agent back in time, Harold hold from breaking it up. Wait, that's terminator. Yeah sort of, I was to say. And that agent was named Harold Holt. Yeah, there's a lot

of assertain to hear like that. There was he was murdered because he was opposed to the Pine Gap facility, when in fact that was that was already going on, that was already going on before he was there. And uh, if he was willing to participate in Vietnam, that would mean he and his party were kind of cold war hawks, and the Pine Gap thing, well, that's that's cold war hawk activity. And so I can't imagine why he would

have been opposed to that or his party. So just for folks who don't know, what do you mean by cold war hawk, cold war hawk as and as and if you were a cold war Hawk and you were in the West, and that meant you were opposed to the Soviets, the Chinese, the whole communism thing. And as you know, we had this thing since the end of World War Two up until basically it was star of course, but basically until the collapse of the Soviet Union. It

was what we called the Cold War get down. The Hawks were the ones who were watching more tight you know, hawks were as as in more a little more warlike, more anti Soviet, more anti communists, more aggressive. Well, I was trying to figure out if it was hawk as in aggressive or hawk as in watching. I was thinking I was taking it as more of a satellite, because Pine Gap is a satellite, say station, Okay, I understand where you're coming from. Yeah, well, ladies, and gent's I

think that's all we've got for this one. If you want to read some of the research that we have done. I will definitely make the uh the National Archive data available because thank you again to those folks that will be on our website. That website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com on that website, like I said, we're gonna have those links, will have you can listen to any episode there downloader stream. There will be merch available on the website on the right hand side for both Zazzle

and Red Bubbles. So shirts and coffee mugs and sticks and all kinds of fun stuff were based on what Devon is currently wearing. Obviously, we need to make a tuk wait not a two kis. That's just a regular stocking cape. It's a beanie. We need to make a beanie insulting my hat. No, you need a Thinking Sideways hat obviously enough, because you're wearing the boring plane black one. That's true, although I do have to admit I don't own anything that's Thinking Sideways branded. So damn. We just

finished our Christmas exchange. Okay, alright, well, well what else can we give you? Well, we are available on iTunes and I know a lot of people get their podcast through iTunes, and if you do, please do take the time to leave a comment and a rating. We are also available on a lot of the streaming sources, so I know it's Google Play and Stitcher and a whole

other most of them out there. We are also going to be on the social media, so we have a Facebook age and the Facebook group, which were very busy and lots of good stuff there. We are on Twitter where we're putting out lots of fun stuff. On Twitter, we're Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle. We

are on Reddit. Our subreddit is Thinking Sideways, And of course you can always go ahead and get a hold of us if you want to get ahold of us via email that would be Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com, where you can send in story suggestions, concerns, general accolades, whatever you want to share. We will totally, totally happily chat with you about any of that. That having been said, I've really i've really got nothing else to float here, so I think we have plumbed the

depths of the mystery. I don't have anything for this. I'm sorry, all right. Well then, ladies and gentlemen, well talk to you next week. By guys