Thinking Sideways: Disappearance of Hale Boggs

groovy mystery. Yeah, we're we at least poles in it. Yeah, this is, um, this is a kind of an interesting one. It's not a really huge one, but people are still chewing over it years after it happened. Yeah. This this is because this is uh, this is tied into another big, giant mystery, and so I'm pretty sure that's why people are so intrigued by it. The other one is, of course, the assassination of JFK. I'm sure most of you have

heard about. Yeah, so explaining to second this ties in, uh, we are talking this week about the mysterious disappearance of Congressman Hail Boggs in nineteen seventy two, not Hailbop not hail bop comment many, yeah, Hailbogs. So briefly, what happened is that Hail Boggs was in Alaska campaigning for another congressman named Nick Baggage. Since Hail Boggs was the he was the majority leader in the House and so he was expected to go do campaigning for some of the

other candidates. Baggage was in a tight race, so he was off. He was there headed for a fundraiser in Juneo. They were Democrats, Yeah, yeah, And they got on an assessment not three ten six Ceder plane in Anchorage along with the pilot, John Jones and Baggage's assistant Russell Brown. They were headed from Anchorage to Juno for a campaign fundraiser, and long story short, the plane never made it to Juno and the wreckage was never found. It's got vanished. Yeah. First,

a little background on our subject. Thomas Hale Boggs was first elected to the House in nineteen forty. Then he lost his re election bid in nineteen two. So he decided to go join the navy. And so you want to join the Navy and did a little fight in World War Two. It was a very patriotic thing to do with. Yeah, yeah, a lot of a lot of people did it, and for our listeners, so they know

why I was just giggling in the background. Our notes say that he was de elected, I'd say that, yeah, yeah, he was de selected there and he elected, and then after World War Two he made a come back in ninety six and course yeah, yeah, he's won't served in the war. That's got to boost your cred There's a bunch of guys who came back from the war and got right into office using that platform. I don't I don't know that Box was a war hero exactly, but he did his bit, you know, and that sometimes it's

all it takes. Yeah, absolutely he was. By the time he disappeared, he was House Majority leaders. I mentioned he was next in line for the speakership. And some of you may have heard of his daughter, Cokie Roberts, who was with NPR and also I think with ABC News and yeah, yeah, I like listening to her. Yeah, she still got a great voice. Yeah, she still gets asked questions about her dad too. Bet her dad's disappearance. You know, people,

just like I said, people are still chewing over this one. Yeah, Another thing about hail Box that's interesting is that he served on the President's Commission on the Assassination of John Fitzgerald. Kennedy also noticed a Warran commission because it was headed by Earl Warren. Box reportedly was not happy. This is rumor, has it not happy with the actual results of the Warrant commission. Yeah. Reportedly, he also reportedly spoke with Jim Garrison.

You may have heard of. Kevin Costner played him in Oliver Stone's movie JFK Oh. Yeah, Jim Jim Garrison was a New Orleans District attorney. Box apparently spilled his guest to Jim Jim Garrison and gave him enough information to cause Garrison to indict and prosecute a New Orleans businessman named Clay Shaw, who if you haven't heard of, you know, watch the movie JFK or maybe I think he was played by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie. It's been so long since I've seen that. I don't even want

to hazard guests, but I didn't see it. Yeah, could you not watch the movie? I know, I don't know. I'm sorry. Do my research for this. Yeah. The rumor was is that that Garrison had this, he had a witness and he said he went to a party, like some sort of cocktail party where Clay Shaw and some other associates met with none other than Lee Lee Harvey

Oswald and a lot of the assassination of JFK. And so he took the case to court and I think the I don't remember how long the trial actually went on for a while, and he made his case and then the Jerry came back in the quitted show after after deliberating for less than an hour. Out. Yeah, his career didn't go that's kind of humiliating. Yeah, yeah, that's because that's a major trial. So why did he spill

this guesst Garrison? If he did well? Again, as I said, it's been rumored he wasn't satisfied with the verdict of the Warrant Commission, and it's also been rumored that he wanted to reopen the assassination investigation. Let's be fair, he

wouldn't be the only person that's true. Yeah, I was gonna say, listen, this is the thing that is so funny when you read about about Hillbogs is everybody makes it out that he was running around Washington constantly screaming what a cock up the Warrant Commission was and how wrong it was. But you've got to look at the dates here. The Warrant Commission ended in sixty four. He died in seventy two, right, yeah, okay, years later. That's

eight years. If I don't like something over the course of eight years, I'm probably gonna make some disparaging remarks to it. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna that I am so flaming angry at it as the way that you you find it in a lot of the accounting. Well, I don't know if that's true about you or not, because I've heard you get that angry time, but not eight years later. But not about the Warrant Commission. That's not about the work. I was fine when I was

on the Warrant Commission. It was fine. You were satisfied with the results, yea, now they The thing about it is is like there's there's evidence both reactions. Yeah. No, I'm just just the way it is phrased and put two readers on the internet is why I want to

bring that up. Oh yeah, if you if you read all this stuff in the internet, he was telling anybody and everybody about you know, massive lize the FBI and how you know, and how and how their investigation was all cocked up and everything, and uh, you know, but we'll talk a little bit more about that later. I

didn't want to say. Regarding the warr And Commission, a lot of the people that served on it really actually, we're kind of reluctant to and a couple of them even pointed out that it's really not going to settle the issue, will probably just make things worse. And that's really basically what happened with the warr Commission. From the start. It was everybody was a legend, cover up, cover up, you know, and so why you even bother? Yeah, absolutely true. Yeah.

But anyway, all this, all this talk about reopening the investigation has led to speculations still going on today that Boggs disappearance was not an accident and he was murdered to head off a new investigation. So they didn't do a very good job. People are still poking around. And then they did not nail the lid shot on that one very well. Yeah, I think they missed completely knocked the lid off. And yeah, yeah, they just stirred up

a Hornet's nest here. So there's a lot of talk about the you know, the elements of the CIA and murdered him. It's also talking about maybe it was the FBI that did him in. The CIA couldn't have murdered him, you don't think, so, I don't think. I don't know. Every time somebody's like, oh, the CIA murdered this guy, but did it happen on US soil, then it probably wasn't the CIA thinks, right, think isn't that the thing? The CIA can't operate on US soil without a different

department quote unquote heading it. Well, yeah, but you know, if they're if they're doing something as the illegal is murdering people, they probably don't care or you just got the FBI to do it for you. There pretty much and the FBI don't really like each other. That's true. Yeah, I don't know. That's just always my initial reaction when I hear things like that it's finally coming out on the show. I tend to be a little skeptical about

that whole thing. Might when I take of the CIA, I don't think of cloak and dagger, and I don't think of special black ops, and you know, wet work and stuff like that. I think of just blistering incompetence. That's what the lake. Yeah maybe he did it. Oh yeah, No more talk about those guys. Okay, I want to stay alive. Uh So we should fraably get back to hail Bogs. Yah. Let's talk to hail Box here for a minute. The hail Box actually, speaking of the FBI,

had a good relationship with Jager Hoover. I read to a bit of his FBI files and there were a lot of there was a lot of correspondence back and forth on various issues, and hail Bogs was constantly praising Hoover and the FBI and the Audiadiada, which is so counter to some of the louder websites that you find on this story, and it's so funny. Well, things did change a little bit. Things did change, yeah, and by

by April nineteen seventy one. In April nineteen seventy one, Bogs claimed that he discovered a bug and his telephone at home and he thought it was the FBI to put it there. And then in maybe two weeks later, he gave a speech before Congress in which he called for Jaker, who were to resign. Yeah, and he was. He was drawing like parallels between Jacker Hooger and the FBI and the Soviets and stuff like this and all

this stuff. Yeah, yeah, Did you did either of you listen to the because obviously Nixon wasn't very happy about that. Did you listen to the tapes the from Nixon when he was talking to I think it was, yeah, Jerry because he called him Jerry, so it was for when he was talking to him, and it's They always say, well, then this is proof that Nixon wanted him out, and Nixon's not happy with him. But I had never heard any of the tapes from Nixon before, and it is

the weirdest conversation in the world to listen to. Did either of you get it? Is? I have never heard such a leading conversation. In other words, Nixon would start talking and there would be a question in there, and then Ford would start, you know, oh yes or oh yes, sir, oh yes, sir to answer the question and make him feel better, and then he would just ride over him and then he would oh, okay, well I gotta let you go. I gotta go, and then he'd do it

all over again. It was the weirdest thing in the world to listen to. And I didn't know why everybody made such a fuss about it. It really was just I don't think that guy should have done that, And I think we got a problem. So you should have somebody look into this. Okay, thanks by got a problem with Boggs, a problem with with Hoover, with Bosh, Yeah, with Bogs and everything he was saying against Hoover. Yeah. Yeah, And I know that Nixon was not about to touch Hoover.

I mean, you know a story nobody. Yeah, Hoover was untouchable. Yeah, he's got his own damn. Yeah, seriously, and he uh he had the goods on everybody, the rumor has and so yeah, everybody was afraid to go after Hohoover. This is why his grave is hidden, because it's all in his coffin. Yeah, secrets. Ye. I would love to get my hands on his files. So cool, you and me both. Yeah anyway, Yeah, so something changed boxes mind about j Edgar Um. Now back to our faithful plane ride. The morning.

It was the morning of October six, nineteen seventy two. The weather was so so it's fog, low clouds, a little drizzle, you remember I was there. Yeah, yeah, and uh. There was a company called pan Alaska that was only a guy named Don Jones who piloted this this plane that was the plane was one of their planes. It's Jones. It's in case somebody's going to go out in google it Z. It's j O and Z, which isn't exactly the intuitive spelling of the word. Yeah, I've heard it

pronounced John's as well. Yeah. I was just about to say it could be Johns, I don't know, or or Juan's yawns. But it's Jon Jones. Now it could be John Z for all we know, but for our purposes we'll just call him Jones. His flight plan basically was that they were going to the town of Yakutat and probably this meant that pronouncing that, But they're going by via airway V three seventeen, which is a flight route.

It's a flight route. Yeah, yeah, and uh and from and once they got to Yakutut, then yak Yakutat, they would go on a straight line to Juno. From there, it was supposed to be about it about a three

and a half hour trip. So the route goes southeast from Ancoras to what's called Portage Pass through the mountains, and then it veers leftward a bit and goes pretty much more or less straight to Yakutat, and then from there it was to not just just a little bit right ward carries on to Juneo, but it leaves to the V seventeen flight path. So it's pretty much overland. No, no, it's mostly over water. Mostly over water. That's that's actually you have the I've got a map of it. Yeah,

so what you're looking at it. It's funny is that I had looked up what the current normal route is between the two cities. Yeah, and most commercial airlines today actually take an arc between the two and they stay inland for most of that trip. So it was really interesting when I saw this that it was actually but it's on the coastline. Over water, but on the coastline. Yeah,

that's pretty much. Yeah. So yeah, it takes off, goes to Portage Pass and then heads off across Pritts Williams Sound and then you know, it's mostly over water, but it's it's not that far off the coast, so if you get a little bit of trouble, maybe you can find the innikulated dry land before you crash. The water is cold, it be hard, Yeah, it would suck either way. Yeah, Don Jones, the pilot said that he was going to

fly under visual flight rules. What does that mean? The visual flight rules means that it's that that's what you do when the weather it's clear enough that you can see all around you. And and then instrument flight rules are when when conditions are very limited visibility, then you're supposed to be able to fly by instruments instead of just by using your just fly by side or fly

by instrument. He was doing fly by sight, yeah, he was. Yeah, and you know, kind of foggy cloud weather and he was of course he was qualified to do both, right he was. Yeah. I mean he's this guy had like seventeen thousand hours of flight experience. That's it. I think that's probably an important thing to mention as well, because it's not Yeah, and so I don't know if he was just getting cocky or what, but yeah, he But the NTSB investigated this and wrote a report in nineteen

seventy three, that's when they released it. Anyway, those uninitiated TSB National Transportation Safety Board. That's it listens about that. I'm thank you for saying that, because I read it and I was like, oh, I know what that is, and then just continued months. Good call. Yeah, okay, it's but according to their report quote the weather conditions along the proposed route, we're not conducive to flight under visual flight rules criteria unquote. Yeah, but anyway, that's what they did.

They took off at nine am. Last communication with anchorage tower was at nine oh nine am, and reportedly they disap as they were approaching the Chugach Mountain Range. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Probably not, so the plant didn't even make it to Yakoo, tad All. An interesting factory about the Chugach Mountains is that they get more

snowfall than any other place in the world. What they do, annual average snowfall is si So if they're playing did happen to crash in the in the in those mountains, well, it's not a surprised. I never found that. That absolutely is for our not American everybody else who uses the metric system metrified, that's fifteen point to five. Yeah, so that's not nothing. It's not a lot of snow. You can make an awesome. Snowman really big one, yeah, or a lot of them. Snowman army, Yeah, would be great.

Give them a little hats, send them marching on anchor don't watch Dr Who. I remember that episode they have testy little teeth that they have actual carnivorous snowman or something. I saw that one they did. I like it. Back where we are we Yeah, So the plane was supposed to arrive in Juneo at twelve thirty PM. At one

fifteen it was reported overdue. So the US Air Force Rescue Coordination Center checked with all the air fields that were anywhere near the plane's flight path, and nobody had seen or heard anything from the plane, so that he didn't make an emergency landing anywhere. And they were in a six You said it was a six seeded Cessna. Yeah, twin engine Cessna with six seeds. I am never going to get an as Sessa. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, they diverted.

There was already an an airborne HC one thirty plane up in the air, so they diverted that to go look for the plane, and of course they brought in lots more resources. This was one of the biggest searches ever they spent thirty nine days looking for theseus I

guess you will. Yeah, yeah. Uh So the planes helicopters, both government owned in private, and they served s thousands of square miles of land and also Coastguard cutters along with merchant marine vessels and fishing vessels search Prince William Sound, the Gulf of Alaska and the Icy Straits area around Juneau, and they found nothing, not even a bit of wreckage floating in the water. Nothing. And then an interesting little side side. Some people have made a lot of this

like they have. In October eighteenth, nineteen seventy two, the fbis Los Angeles office got a call from a guy. And I've heard this two ways. One was the FBI I got a call from the guy, and the animal was that this guy called the Long Beach Coast Guard Office. Yeah. I have actually seen it both ways, now that you

say that. Yeah. And so this guy claimed work for a company that specialized in quote surveillance technologies unquote, and that they had located the plane via either some sort of radio transmission or via the transmission from its emergency location transmitter. Because most planes carry the fact that they all carry the days today they all do. They didn't carryhim in those days necessarily. This actually, this crash is why all planes now have HE transponders in them, which

are really really effective, as we know from recent crashes. Yeah, they're very helpful in finding crashes. They are kind of helpful usually. The first time I ever saw when I was in a little two seater sessment with this guy that I knew, yeah, I was incess. I am like,

actually this guy was. I really did kind of take my life in my hands because this guy was actually a fairly novice pilot and he wanted to go for and and so we rented this plane and took off from Vancouver, Washington and want to flew around not Saint Helen's cannon came back and that's when I know that

I saw my first emergency transit. Emergency transmitter and says it looks like like a walkie talkie mounted in a really heavy duty bracket towards the back of the plane, and it's got a tagle switch on the top of it, and there's a little rail and it's got this heavy weight on it. So the whole idea is when I was plane goes Chris Smack action to something that heavyweight's gonna go back forward and toggle that switch. Very simple,

you know, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, but yeah, and under Alaska law, you were required to have some sort of emergency transmitter if you didn't have one mounted in your plane, and then you could have a portable unit with with the pilot so you could do that. So Alaska did require them in this particular case. Just so over so I remember that that's two days after the crash that that guy called. Oh yeah, yeah, that's yeah,

back to that until totally got off the track. That's okay, it is, yeah, two days yeah, so two days after the crash or two days after the disappearance. Yeah, that's when he called. And then um, yeah, so this guy and he gave the coordinates of the crash site and although he didn't really give the coordinates as in ladder price precise latitude and longitude. Instead he gave these really strange directions. Yeah. Yeah. He also said that there were

two people still alive there. He said, you know how he would know that, Well, that's kind of what I'm wondering too, because you know, then it must have neces sort of radio transmission. But what I don't understand is how it is that nobody else heard this? Yeah, or

maybe they were doing like a flyover thermal. In the more real websites that you see, they say that at the time, the U. S. Government had the ability to actually track individual people and could pick up some kind of special radio and I don't know, I I don't understand it because it's really kind of fringe. E. It was his it was his fillings anyway, it was their

electrical magnetic field. Everybody, they could track you by your personal electromagnetic field because what it was, and that they had the technology to do it, but they couldn't reveal that. So of course, whenever anybody said, well, how do you know that? But I can't tell you that? Or who do you work for? I can't tell you that because

technically it's a government institution that he works for. It was the goofiest thing if you and you have the what he said, yes and that the directions right, Yes, yes, is our our highly highly reliable sources. They call him the FBI. I think they called him that. But okay, so here's how it goes. The it's is draw a straight line from Anchorage to Juno Head west from JUNO two hundred and an unknown number because we don't know what it is because the photocopy is so bad that Yeah,

the tent. So it's hundred and blank six and one half miles across the Yakutat Bay and the Malsapoena Glacier. Draw a line from that point to the coast. Go back north along that line six point four or three miles to the downed plane. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a geographic word problem. Yeah, that's like an s A T question. It kind of is. I don't I don't unders understand why if they couldn't just give like the

latitude and longitude. Maybe I have theories on it, and we'll talk about that when we get into the theories section. But that is that, that is the way that the directions were given. Yeah, the FBI and did go interview this guy. Unfortunately, his name has been redacted in their records, so I don't know what his name was, but yeah,

they were part of that. He quote appeared rational, extremely intelligent, but somewhat strange unquote, and he was also evasive, like said, he wouldn't say where his what his company was, or

exactly what they did wouldn't talk about that. And then uh, the FBI asked him again like later on, they if he knew anything about like what frequency these radio transmissions were on, or what any of these messages were, like what the text of matches were he was He wouldn't say, so he was absolutely part of the fringe, yeah, right, or pranks. Yeah, it could have been a prankster. Yeah. Uh. The FBI did pass the info on to the relevant people.

The area was reportedly searched and nothing was found. Uh, and after that day decided the source was a flake. And also again the plane, even though it didn't have any in an e l T Emergency location transmitter, the pilot still was supposed to carry one, but Don Jones and e LT was found later on board another Pan Alaska airplane. This is weird. I mean, I guess it's I think that he went from one plane to the next and left. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess again it's

one of those. You know, he was a pretty accomplished pilot. Yeah, he didn't feel like it was really necessary. Coincidence that he decided to choose the wrong kind of way to fly. It's a coincidence that he managed to leave his transmitter on a different plane. Oh yeah, I mean, I don't think there's anything a dark conspiracy or anything like that. I think, but it is. It's a lot of a lot of oh say yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe the pilot was feeling a little down and decided

to take himself out. And we've seen it before. Yeah, I know. Uh so it appears that there was no emergency transmitter. Now the plane, of course had other radios in it, but how well those would be working after a plane crash, I don't know. Yeah, especially under snow. Yeah, yeah, I don't think it dove all the way down through really hard. Well, it was in the sky, I'll give

you that. That was I'm thinking of that plane that crashed in South America decades ago, and it's they were they were in a head wind and they didn't realize that they had not They were traveling basically from Buenos Aires to Peru, and so because of the head wind, they weren't as far west as they thought they were, so they started their descent too early and they sort of crashed into the side. Yeah. I was just reading

about that the other day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the most recently what happened is they wind up being becoming part of a glacier, and now parts of the plane are starting to come out of the glacier, the front of the glacier. Yeah, after all those years decades, Yeah, the planes finally popping out. Maybe that and maybe that's what's gonna happen here. Maybe you'll start coming out of

a glacier one of these days. That plane crashed and it was forty six or forty seven or something like that, and these guys who were ha been in World War Two, So yeah, I remember that anyway. But that's all that's were I want to get off track. That's okay. It's people love to just hear us talk, even if we're

not saying anything. But yeah, but as far as if they heard radio transmissions, like vote voice radio transmissions, it's kind of surprising nobody else did, although several independent Ham operators in northern California said they spoke with someone or at least heard a transmission from someone on the plane after it crashed who said that there were survivors. And then again, it's another one of those weird things right where it's like, but why so far away is that

everybody was hearing it. You know, why weren't people why you know, why didn't the airports in the area that we're on the radio? When didn't they pick up operators in Oregon and Washington and Canada picking it? Yeah, that's a good question. But was it only California, just only northern California maybe? Yeah, reminds me of Lost Boiler Area. Yeah, maybe the plane actually crashed in California. That's why they couldn't find it. They were way of course. Yeah that

is a terrible yeah. Yeah, so our mystery. Then what happened to Bog's Beggett, Brown and Jones. Yeah, it sounds like a law firm. Huh. There are three possibilities excluding up in the aliens. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm also going to exclude the they went off to go start a new life somewhere else theory. You don't actually do that. Yeah, you totally keep going in there. Yeah, so three possibilities. Here's number one, the CIA or and or the FBI

arranged to have a bomb planet on the airplane. That this is a lot of people believe that there was a bomb. Um some people believe that the CIA assassin wasn't not other than Bill Clinton. Is that real? Yeah, that's real. I found it on at least two or three websites. Supposedly Clinton was a young man and he drove bogs to the airport to get on the plane

that took him to Alaska, not the plane that went down. Well, yeah, everybody takes it takes us as Yeah, he drove him to the airport in Alaska and and just snuck a bomb in Texas or something like that. Weren't they the dollars airport? Dollars airports in New York? Right? And Dallas is Washington, Virginia. So Washington d C me no geography quite well, surrounding area. Yeah, I mean it's not in DC. It's got to be I'm thinking of Dallas Fort Worth. Then, yeah,

that's it. Just a little confused. Yeah, well, you know, I was a little confused as soon as I heard that Old Bill Clinton was response would explain why he was elected to isn't as payment? That's that's gotta be it. So he probably drove into the airport and says, hey, I just got a little part of the gift for you here. I don't want you to until you get to Juno, and don't mind the ticken. I have never heard your Bill Clinton impression, but it's pretty good. Thank you. So,

so Clinton is the assassin? Which Clinton was the assassin? Yeah, I'm sorry. The only thing that he has been able to assassinate that I've ever known of is his wife's dignity and his own character. Yeah, okay, but continue on with this. Okay, So where where the c A or FBI had a bomb planet on the plane? As I said earlier, he was pushing, supposedly pushing to reopen the investigation into the assassination, and he had to be silenced. Um, it's said, It's been said that Box was suspicious that

there was CIA and or Cuban government involvement in the assassination. Yeah, because you know that is the thing. Ok Yeah. An author named John H. Davis wrote a book about one of Bog's associates. I don't think I don't know how closely he was associated with this guy, but the guy, it was kind of a mafiosa sort of guy. And then he said that he wrote that Box was skeptical the FBI investigation as conclusions. He said also that years after the fact that one of Bog's former aids said, quote,

Hale always returned to one thing. Hooverlied his eyes out to the commission on Oswald on Ruby on their friends, the bullets of the guns you name it unquote of course says it's just you know what, kind of like third hand kind of stuff kind of hearsay, yeah. Yeah. Alternatively, the FBI might have done it because Boggs disc jag or Hoover, as I said, he did, announced him and demanded his resignation in April. Possibility. Yeah, of course, Hoover

died five months before the disappearance of the plane. But you never know. I mean, maybe he gave the order in the assassins, just waited until October because that was the propetious time to do it, because after all, Alaska and small airplanes don't really get along that well, even though if you have to happen to get around. I mean, they seem to disappear a hell of a lot up there, or crash or not disappear, but they crashed, they don't

fare well. Yeah uh. And also bolstering the FBI theory, Nick Baggage, his son who was also named Nick Baggage, said in two thousand and eleven and then interview that the FBI knew where the down airplane was but didn't turn over the information to the coast Guard, and so the plane survivors were basically left to die in the wilderness. That's what he claimed. And yeah, I know, well, it's just I mean, I don't know. I usually when when the kids of the victims of things buy into these

conspiracy theories, they champion the conspiracy. I had a kind of I don't know, like adds a little more to me. You know, they their parents pretty well, they would know if they had that sense of like that that was actually probably gonna happen to them or not. But obviously, I mean, like I don't think that Cokey Roberts thinks that just happened. So yeah, she's kind of the polar opposite. But yeah, it's interesting. It's I don't know, but that's

always interesting to me. Yeah, it's always I think, you know, especially once your parents or something like that, I mean, you want to want to be something more historically significant, and there's just gotten the crash. Yeah, but he said that they did it mainly to uh, I'm not so sure that he buys. He hasn't didn't really say anything about the whole uh JFK assassination thing. But he thought he thought the FBI just had the technology to find them,

but it was new and classified, its super secret. They didn't want to give away their their sources by sense, so they basically chose to let these people all die, which I don't I don't believe in seventy two they had any sort of sort of super mystical It had

to be a satellite. Yeah, I think about it. And it was looking up the satellite list that had been launched and were available at that time, and it didn't get an impression from anything that was out there that we had anything remotely capable of doing that unless the FBI had, you know, actually bugged in his bloodstream. Hail bogs. Think they put a little tracker chip in him that could be to know where he was at all times,

to make sure he wasn't up to no good. Yeah, that could be that technology existed then, Yeah, Yeah, well we had and we had we did have spy satellites and stuff, but you know, you kind of like they're not necessarily going to pass over that particular spot at that particular time. Yeah, and that and there, uh, you know, they might go over that spot once every now and again unless you want to change their change their orbit a bit, which they're kind of reluctant to do because

they have limited fuel on board. I don't know why Google didn't get a picture of it. Uh yeah, Well, speaking of Google, can we talk about this whole the guy who said he knew the coordinates thing a little bit more or no? Because I used Google Transition, Yes, got it, because I I kind of I kind of went a little crazy on this this word problem that they gave us about how that heat where he said they knew where Boggs was, and there's some serious problems

with it. And I'm gonna say at the outset that I'm pretty sure the problems with it are that somebody did their quote unquote calculations. They did it on a paper map using a ruler and a pencil, and you know, doing the distance conversions from x amount of distance equels a mile. So their their scale is probably what screwed

him up. If we go back to what this person said, it said from Juno, head west from Juno, which is the southernmost point of their route, because we're just north of it or north west of you know, well, the two hundred number two hundred blank in that has to be a low number. Okay, so it's two hundred and six, Well, that means it's gonna be like two six to put it around that glacier that he's talking about. But in a straight line. There's almost no land that that on

the line of that they're running. So when it says follow that line, hit this this mile point, and then draw a line to the coast, well, I don't know what that line to the coast means. But then track that back north six point four three miles, Well that does put them completely in Basically, it puts them in the middle of what's the glacier there, the Mallas Spina glacier.

That's the one that they reference, which is a Piedmont glacier, which is a weird glacier because it's kind of flat and from space it almost looks like somebody dropped a white drop of paint in blue the way it kind of echoes out. But it's a real flat area, so it would have been pretty easy for the search planes to find it because there's no major cavasses and crags and stuff in there. So a my first problem is is that the course that they the point that they

call out on the course is over water. So it's hard to go to the coast because I infer it to head south from the line to coastline and then head north. But even if it's just heading directly north, it doesn't make any sense. It's it's such an easy flat area to find somebody. So that's why I consider the whole thing just so badly done. And somebody who thought they knew what they were talking about be still

a map and they were kind of a cook. Yeah, I think I think the guy was just I think it was probably just because you know, I guess some guy wanted attention. Maybe I don't know, but I spent I spent way too much time on Google Earth trying to map out these coordinates, and just it's just a strange way to give the give the coordinates to the crash site. As you say, if they had crashed on that placier, then they're probably even if they're playing had

fallen down a crevass, you'd see it. It's some nice, big long skid marks and a little bit of debreed and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So between the FBI and the CIA. I'm gonna go with the CIA, mainly because since they were employing Bill Clinton, that makes him an assassin and murderer, so that's kind of fun. But yeah, I guess we said he drove into the Dollas Airport, but he was nowhere near Alaska in the

day that the plane took off. I think that Cloe can clear Clinton of this and a way, but maybe somebody else planning bomb on the on the plane and Anchorage, and it's always possible even if it wasn't Bill Clinton. But according to the National Transportation Safety Boards report, UH says probably not because at eight am that day, Don Jones took the plane to the refueling pitch at Anchorage

International Airport. The witnesses there's said nothing was put on the plane except for gasoline, and after that Jones taxied the plane to a rap near the control tower where the three passengers got on, and witness there said that a small amount of baggage passenger baggage was also placed on the plane, but that was it, although of course there could have been a bomb in one of the bags. Yeah, you know, I suppose, you know, I think the thing is John's was a kind of a cocky pilot. Yeah,

it seems like it. Well he he was no evidently their statements recorded where he would say he could fly through any condition. So that's that's a little bit that kind of makes me. Plus everything else that we've talked about, I really don't think that this is a c I, a FBI assassination job. You don't know, Well, there's not

much in the way of that. And speaking of cockiness, besides, you're required on planes like this, we're required to carry not only the transmitter, the emergency transmitter, but you're required to carry all kinds of survival supplies, I mean a lot. And witness says that saw the plane before it took off said that they didn't see any containers containing survival supplies.

You're supposed to have things like you're supposed to have a gun, two weeks worth of food for everybody on the plane, Uh, you know, heavy clothing and probably flare a gun, and and wool blankets, your fair repellent trans susmitters, you know. Yeah, you're supposed to have all kinds of stuff and probably and there was Yeah, apparently there was nothing on the plane according to witnesses that resembled the container full of survival supplies. Yeah, and so he left it.

He left the survival supplies behind, and he left his emergency transmitter behind. So yeah, you're right, it was kind of a cocky guy. Was that on all planes? Joe? Was that in Alaska? No? Just in general? Is it

just in Alaska that they're required to I think that's Alaska? Low? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it would actually be a good idea if you're flying anywhere in the lower forty eight to carry some survival supplies too, because just flying anywhere, yeah, because you're if you crash, there's a good chance you're going to crash in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, yuh,

better be able to be prepared to survive. Um, let's go to another theory, uh, theory number two, which is at the plane just crashed, it wasn't bombed or anything like that. Back to Cokie Roberts, she said in two thousand four that her father actually had no problems with the Warren Commission's findings, and he, she said, he was also not pushing for the investigation to be reopened. So it turns out maybe some of that is not quite

so true. Although I saw at least one guy on a website they called her a liar with an exclamation point to yeah I think it was yeah, yeah, yeah. She later said in too she said that Boggs was skeptical the single bullet theory, but she also said that she believed that Lee Harvey Oswald did act alone and if Boggs was gonna be something different than she probably would have said something to her about that, and Hail

Bogs never said anything to his daughter about that. Um I was Also in fourteen she said that she she here that the plane is at the bottom of Prince William Sound and that it will probably never be found. Yeah, because after all, this did this did take place in Alaska, and as we said, Alaska does not like plane no people, people and planes disappear all the time in Alaska. Uh So it's just not that unusual. And again, if they did go down because a bad weather or whatever, you know,

you can actually crash your plane. I mean, Don Jones was a very experienced pilot, but even an experienced pilot, if you're getting a fog bank, they really lose your bearings. Next thing you know, you're flying upside down and maybe flying into the flying straight down and not realizing what you're doing, you know, And so when when you're not on instruments in this guy and he was not on instruments, it's easy to do that. Yeah. Well I also heard that there was I swear I read somewhere that the

conditions were conducive to icing of the wings. Yeah, they did not have anything in the way of d icing equipment on the on the plane right, which again, if it's coal, it's low visibility and you're flying to your clouds and stuff like their wings are icing up, you may not realize how much altitude you're losing. Yeah, which, and then of course once you've got ice all over your wings, their new mobility is out the window. You're kind of host Yeah. Yeah, I think that Jones was

aware of ice. Have I saying. I think he probably, if he was able to, would probably have tried to get out of the clouds, and so because that's that's where most of your ice comes from, I believe, Yeah, the moisture in the clouds, So you probably tried to climb above the clouds. Probably we don't really know what he did. Unfortunately, ah see another theory, the theory number three, the pilot Don Jones was paid by the to land the plane that a remote airstrip where a hail box

was taken prisoner and tortured and interrogated. Where did you find this? I made it up? But I mean realistically, I like the theory, you know, because it involves water boarding or whatever they did to him. Uh and uh, you know, if they didn't want to if they didn't want to kill him, it act it makes more sense to bribe the pilot and have him land the plane somewhere because if you blow the plane up with the bomb, well you don't know where the wreckage is going to

end up. It could end up in the water, could end up on land where was found, and then it becomes obvious that the plane was blown up with the bomb. Although if you're the FBI, you probably would be taking you would be able to say, oh, terrorism, we got to take over the investigation, and then you know, quote unquote investor investigated and then say, oh, it was you know whatever the big group that we don't like at

the time is. And everybody would say, oh, those guys we had reinforces are to do bad things to them, and then that's true. I guess it's also entirely I mean, if you want to go that route, it's also entirely possible that they could have a had a man on the ground, b had a transponder and fixed location that they knew it would go over and set the bomb off or see they could have had another plane following it to then blow it up and know where the debris went and then knowing exactly where to go to

pick it up. That's true. I mean, that's the thing is that, Okay, if we're going to take this conspiracy to that level, let's not just presume that these guys are the messy jerks who leave their dirty dishes in the sink all night long. They go and clean it up right away, so they wouldn't know where it was at.

They probably would, or they could have just I mean, if they knew the flight path and everything, and they knew basically then mostly it was gonna be over water, they could have just put a bomb in there with an altimeter trigger or a timer. Yeah, I think an altimeter trigger would work better. It depends on when you

put the bomb in the plane. Like if you put it in like say, the night before, and that you probably want to have an altimeter trigger and even a time or you don't know, maybe the flight gets delayed, maybe they don't take off right away, and then you're kind of posed because they're sitting on the air stripped because it's frozen, and bomb goes off and then everybody knows what's going on. Yeah, well then you claim terrorism, right. Yeah,

security sweets bail proof. Even the Homeland security didn't exist at the time. Yeah, it didn't. I know, I know, I know. Really, Homeland Security is doing such a great job. We're holding up my bag. I'm still alive, and I had them to thank for it. The n s A is nothing if not amazing. We love them, do the only great things. Oh, I'm seeing Devin wink at me, and she says that, yes, we love all of those government institutions them for keeping us safe and non infringing

on anything. Ever, they did everything right, electronic bug underneath this table. We do it right, We did it well. Okay, okay, yeah, I think we convinced him. All right, all right, so I'm going to vote for the plane just crashed in water. Yeah, it's like sitting at the bottom of the ocean right now, although you never know it, maybe a crash in the glacier and it's gonna come popping out one end of

it sooner or later. I'd be kind cool. Yeah, that's entirely possible, because you know, the snow in Alaska is melting at record fast rates now, and things that have gone out and been buried in the snow in the last several hundred years we're gonna start showing up. So

we may in the next decade find the Cessna. If it did indeed crash on land and get buried in a glacier, that would be cool that I'm guessing that since this route was mainly over water, like about over water, I think they went down to the drink, and since sea levels are rising, we won't find it. So yes, no, never, you never know, somebody might stumble upon it for one reason or another. I mean, it's it's not necessarily impossible.

I mean, technology is marching on. We're finding ways to you know, get Google is mapping the bottom of the ocean, and they will find it for us. They might. I mean, we're yeah, we're developing technologies that allow us to really accurately scanned the bottom of the ocean. We're finding Rex, did you hear about that, gal, and they found out the coast of Colombia and they don't know who it

belongs to. Now, Yeah, they're trying to figure that out, like seven billion dollars worth of treasure or something like staggering about the treasure. Yeah yeah, So I wish I could have a chunk of that too. We should just discover it for ourselves. Yeah, yeah, no, I because you guys, I know care. I like the conspiracy theories on this one. They're fine, Yeah, they're fine. I think I think I think he was murdered. I think Hale Boggs was murdered. Okay,

the FBI, not the CIA. You think the FBI did it, Yeah, because, like I said, the CIA can't operate on US soil. Yeah okay. And then did they threaten their bribe Cokey Roberts. She just doesn't know. Why would she know? How would you know? Yeah? As well as that's true, Okay, yeah, they brainwashed, this is my that's ridiculous. Look, by the way, is that what that is? Well? Cokey did actually disappear

at one point in the mid seventies. Dais believe that she was sent off to a remote location and brainwashed and false memories were implanted. See it's perfect. Yeah, okay, there you go. Yeah, come on, let's let's keep going here. Is there anything else do about the story? Joe, not really, Uh, there's so anyway. So Devin thinks the FBI idea killed them. I think the plane just crashed. What do you think? Do you think the plane just crashed? Yeah, that's most likely. Okay,

all right, well another mystery solved. Right on. Alright, now we've come to your favorite part of the podcast where I tell you some stuff that you already know. Yeah, if you if you want to find us down letter, episodes, whatever, leave comments. So we have a website called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We also have links, so we will post some links to some kind of like websites. They are kind of like what tinfoil hat kind of websites. Well,

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Well I guess that's it. You guys have any further thoughts? No? No, al right, Well tell you next week then Tata everybody, Oh bye, guys, bitter everyone,