Thinking Sideways: Did Elizabeth 1 have a child?

What happened to Devon from Thinking Sideways. She was supposed to be at the recording studios at seven pm. It's seven oh five and she's not here, alright? Theories she ran away and starting new life. Can you get that? Yeah? Sorry, guys, Sorry, I'm sorry, Okay, sorry, okay, okay. Hey, Well, time to find a new mystery. Hang on a second while you go to the Google. Uh, please enjoy this really RESTful elevator music. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

I'm Joe, joined as always by and Yeah. This week we're gonna talk about a few mysteries surrounding Queen Elizabeth, the First of England. Some of you guys may have heard of her once or twice. Yeah, I guess. And these are a couple of different mysteries that have been suggested to us by so many people that I'm not going to give you guys a shout out. It's to say thanks for the suggestions. Well, there's a lot of

mysteries around her. There are some mysteries around here. One of the first mysteries that she was involved in was the misplaced colony of Roanoke. Also that as a colony, we can't seem to put our hands on it. The moment calling me of nothing to see here, yeah, exactly, please move along, yeah yeah, don't mind the alien burn marks stuff. Yeah, but she was involved in that because she wanted to get England a tohede in the New World. All the Europeans were doing that. It was it was

all the rage back in those days. Yeah, she granted a charter to Sir Walter Rawleigh. So you found a settlement in what would become Virginia, which is named after Elizabeth because she was the Virgin Queen. Yeah yeah, nick yeah, good Queen Bass. And next she had one or two other nicknames, a lot of them. Yeah, she did and here's but another mystery about her is people have been wondering for a long long time they still are today, is did she ever have a child? And it is

one of them. That's a that's a big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just gonna jump in here real quick and say that historic mysteries like this it will probably not surprise any of our listeners bother me a little bit. I am not super stoked in the idea of the public fascination of was this woman of virgin Was she not? Did she have a child? Did she not? Though I understand in this one circumstance that it is of historic significance and totally worth an episode. So if I seem

a little cranky, that's why. Sorry God, Yeah, well the is it so box away? Yeah? By yeah, I expect a little crankiness there, um, but you know it is. It is kind of something to ponder because she said she was she said she was going to remain unmarried in Virgin and YadA, YadA, YadA. But you may big deal out of it. Yeah. The royal courts back in those days were kind of libidinous places. Yeah, oh yeah, a lot. There's a lot of hanky packing going on.

Pull that one on. Yeah, I gotta be honest with the stuff that I've read about the things that went on in court and all of the political dealings. I know I've probably said this before and I'll probably say it again. I don't even understand how the royalty managed to exist with all of the games they were. But then again, I don't understand how the political system in our own country, which is pretty similar, has managed to

get along as long as it has. Yeah. So luckily, the mystery that we're talking about is did Elizabeth have a kid? Not? Was she a virgin, which is one that people have suggested and I have outright refused every single time because I just I don't care to talk about that. But we are going to talk about today, right, did she have whether she had a kid? So let's

get to it. Let's solve this. Yeah, but before I get into the mystery thing, I think I should give everybody a little background on Elizabeth the first Yeah, in case you haven't heard of her. Yeah, that's a little history lesson here. It'll be brief. Don't worry, don't go away. Well, I watched the Tutors, so I know all this Okay, Elizabeth was born the same thrones, right yeah, real history,

the documentary with real dragons. Yeah. Well, I mean England always had that giant ice wall, right yeah, okay, sweet, go ahead you okay. So she was born fifty three, the daughter of Henry the Eighth and Anne Bolan, who was his second wife and radiate. Um. Yeah, and that's sure. You guys have all heard of Henry the eighth and the sixth wife. But if you have, and here's a quick rundown. Henry was a second monarch in the Tutor line, and his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, had a daughter

who would later become Queen Mary the First. And then Henry got impatient with Catherine because she had actually six children, but only one of them survived. Three of them were still born, and two of them died shortly after childbirth, and so he she hadn't given him a son, and he really really strangely valued it was very much of the time. Yeah. Uh. So he decided to move on and so you found found this new girl in boleyn

uh and married her. There's one hit. So he needed to persuade the pope to annul his marriage to Katherine and the boat said no, understandably that the church does not condone, does not condone divorce. Yeah, they're a little more lenient on these days, but at that time they were like, nah, yeah, it was seriously, seriously, I just I love the fact that the Church of England was created because the king was like, you know what, I don't really like my wife anymore. That's the whole reason

for it. I really want to bang this more attractive, younger chick. I mean, I Steve his like laugh, He's like about following his chair right here. But no, I mean, like that's That's basically what Henry said was I'm not interested in my wife anymore. I'm interested in someone else. Now. He created an entire new church and religion basically because he wanted to do something else. There's been quite a few figures in history who have done very similar things.

You know, it's pretty interesting. Anyway, that's the story. After marrying Anne Boleyn, she gave birth to Elizabeth, and then two and a half years after Elizabeth was born, apparently Henry was getting a little tired, was ready to move on again. He wanted somebody younger. Yeah, or maybe Anne was just too naggy or something, but yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, Henry accuser of adultery and had her put to death. Another character I should mention here is

Kat Ashley. Catherine Ashley. She was appointed as Elizabeth Governess when she was four years old, and that's Elizabeth Elizabeth, and that was that was a prestigious title, right, like we should be clear it was not just of a princess. Yeah, yeah, it's a serious thing. I mean yeah, And she was well educated, Cat, that was. And she taught to Elizabeth astronomy, geography, history, mathematics, French, Italian, Spanish, Flemish. I was I was actually really surprised when I was

reading that. I never realized that Elizabeth the First had such a knack for languages. She evidently was really really good at it, which I don't know why they caught me so off guard. But when you start learning languages at form, that's a very good point. That makes a big difference. I think. Yeah, you know, I know I've mentioned this before, but I have a fair number of friends who are very fluent in multiple languages, and all of them, even if they started learning the languages that

they're now fluent in, later in life. They all ended they all had bilingual parents basically, so they were raised with that knack, and I think it's something that a lot of kids learn early on. So yeah, if she started learning other languages at four, she was gonna be good at him. Yeah, Elizabeth was pretty smart. Yeah, yes, yeah,

really smart. Cat was important, Yeah, was very important. Well, the person who raises Yeah, she was essentially her mother absolutely because as you know, Henry, well, her stepmothers came and went. It was friendly rapidly, quite a few, it turns out. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean but frankly, even if you know stepmothers managed to stay for even ten fifteen years, it doesn't really matter because the queen at that time isn't nobility, isn't really that involved in raising

their kid. That's just how it was then, not really that much. Yeah, so anyway, but the reason I brought up Cat is just that she plays a role in some of these stories. She does. Yeah, back to Henry the Eighth for a little bit. His next wife, Jane Seemer, finally produced a male heir, Edward, who became King Edward the six After Henry died he was nine. He immediately decreed that all candy in England belonged to him. Yeah. Yeah, even now maybe I might be like, you know what,

English candies pretty good? Yeah, yeah, they do it pretty well. Unfortunately for Edward, he only ruled until he was sixteen, when he died diabetes. Did you know, I don't remember he did not decree that all candy was no. Actually he didn't know he was. He was always very sickly, and he was very He had something with his lungs. He was like pneumonia. He seemed to take on things like that or get that, all the time he had

breathing issues. He had a lot of fluid in his lungs because I remember he got sick and it was winter time, and then he started getting better, and then he started getting ill again in the summer when it should have been warm and his lungs should have dried out. And I don't you know, it may be determined at this point exactly what what it was that sunder Trump, but I don't remember what it was, but I know

it was basically pneumonia. Probably either that or his half sister Mary poisoned him well, because well, I guess who got to I guess who got the throne? Next Mary, Mary the First. Yeah, not not Mary Queen, well not directly, not immediately. Yeah, there was a little interim period of nine days. Yeah, yeah, there was a little intra period.

There was some contention. Uh well, first of all, there's a little contention about Mary the First, whether she was legitimate or not because the marriage had been annulled to her mother and all that stuff. But it was eventually it was all sorted out and Mary got the got the throne in fifteen fifty three and she ruled for five years until fifteen fifty eight what she died. And during this time there were some plots against Mary that

Mary and I have involved Elizabeth. I know that these plots that wanted to topple her and put Elizabeth on the throne. But whether Elizabeth Elizabeth actually participated in these it's kind of an open question. And thought that Mary wasn't popular, Now, Mary wasn't that nobody seemed to have really liked her. Yeah, And Elizabeth was younger and prettier, and people just seemed to like her better. You know, it's I mean, you know, frankly, it did seem that

people didn't like Mary's mother very much. The people seemed to kind of like in at least in my reading. You know, I'm not I'm not British, I don't know, but definitely not fully versed in this this time frame. Yeah, but it seems to me that people like Anne Boleyn was like the people's wife, people's choice, you know, people really liked her for whatever reason or not. Yeah, kind of, and so they liked Elizabeth more than they really liked any of the other kids. That's what it seemed like

to me, at least that's fair. Back to the back to the plots against Mary, Elizabeth spent some time in the Tower of London, I think around a year, and there was actually a question at the time of whether she might get executed or not for her maybe participation in these plots. But against I said, there really wasn't much evidence that he was actually involved in any of them. And I'm thinking I think Mary probably was reluctant to execute Elizabeth because it had actually been kind of close

in childhood. You know, they were only half sisters. They there was kind of a schism between and when she went to the throne, but things they sort of got like colder towards one another. Yeah, Well, I mean they were sisters, and yeah, you know, half sisters or sisters. They were raised together. How old were they at that point too? I mean Mary was quite a bit older than she was, Like it was seven years old, at least seven years old, okay, maybe maybe ten years. But

how old was Elizabeth? She wasn't not much older? Was she very younger? You mean, I'm sorry then, um than Edward? Yeah, she was. I think about the time that Mary took the son, I think Elizabeth was nineteen or twenty yeah, okay, and so yeah, not that much older, maybe five four or five years at the most. Yeah, okay, okay, one

last little bit of history. Um, the one Elizabeth ascended to the throne, many English Catholics didn't accept her as legitimate, right because Henry is married to Anne, was illegitimate in their eyes, and so she had been a bastard she was, Yeah, she was a bastard and therefore was not a legitimate heir to the throne. And this time it's believed and Henry the eighth that actually had numerous flame was an affairs and that he actually had he actually had male children.

He did, but they couldn't take the throne right because they were all legitimate. Yeah, he seemed to really hold to the standard of I can only bring into the fold and give power to the ones who were officially recognized by marriage. Like it was. He knew everybody knew that he had these kids. It wasn't a secret, but he was the Robert Barathian of But he did not try to also force them in and say I have a boy, this is my boy, this is going to be the king. Except the boy he's a king. Like

he didn't do that at all. The tenants were in place, even Henry. Henry pushed the rules and he redefined them in a lot of ways, but he knew that was only so far he could go yeah, yeah, and they think it's hard to say. You know, oh, I um slept with this woman who sleeps with a lot of people one time. Now she suddenly has a son and he's totally going to be the next king of England. You're welcome, everyone. I have no way to know if he's actually my sun or not. That's another good point.

You want to make absolutely sure he actually is your son. Yeah, which although with easy at that time. Yeah, yeah, back to Elizabeth, you guys totally are but uh you mentioned Mary, Queen of Scott's. Mary Queen of Scott's felt that she did have a better claim to the throne in Elizabeth because it was legitimate though distant, yeah, more distant relation to Henry the eighth, but you know, all legitimate and everything.

But she never got any traction on that claim, and eventually she was overthrown in Scotland and wind up taking refuge in England through yourself on Elizabeth Elizabeth's mercy, and but I couldn't refrain from mucking around in a few little plots against Elizabeth, and so in February seven, Elizabeth had her beheaded. Yeah, yeah, although she said at the time that she didn't really mean for her to be beheaded. Yeah. OK,

explain how did this go to? She had signed Mary's death warrant, but she told her se Terry not to send it off. But apparently certain other important persons uh either misunderstood the meeting at least one were in it or or I think actually what happened is that it was like the Privy Council was called, you know, without Elizabeth knowing about it, and they decided to well, we've

got the death warrant, let's carry it out, and they did. Yeah, Elizabeth was upset about that, or at least she pretended to be. There's some thought some people think that perhaps she wasn't upset about it at all, that she actually was the reason that had happened, and that she just wanted a little plausible deniability. Yeah. Well, I mean Mary would have been a serious threat to have fun, and Mary was quite popular with a lot of some people.

She was. But at the same time, I think Elizabeth did not want even though she wanted Mary out of the way permanently, she didn't like the idea of killing royalties. She wasn't. I think she just wasn't. Really, she wasn't a killer at her I mean, though, well, she had a number of people put to death, she did, but she was not afraid. I don't have the sense that she necessarily was in cold blood, you know, thinking, Wow, this person might vaguely want to kill me, so I'm

going to have it thout. You know. That doesn't seem like that, not at all. Briefly, this is like one of my favorite little period bubbles periods of time, this whole you know, nobility in this era, the Elizabeth not the Elizabethan area as a whole. I mean, yes, that is very interesting to me from a costume designer perspective because it's interesting clothes, but just like the whole little bubble of nobility in this time is like very fascinating to me. So I'm sorry because I know I'm the

person who keeps taking a soft track. So we're not even close to getting into the mystery. But maybe Joe will be able to do that now that I've apologized for being the person. I'm sorry. Guys, Scheming and all that stuff is kind of it is kind of fascinating. It's just so interesting. I don't know. I have a hard time keeping everyone because there's always a bazillion player is in these stories and it's always confusing to me, and they always have the same names. Thank you, right.

But the other thing that I always cracks me up about this period is everybody romanticizes it and goes on and on and how wonderful it must have been, and I'm always like, are you kidding me? They painted their faces with lead paint. I don't want to look in the streets. I don't want to live Yeah, I don't want to live there. We live in a gilded age now,

And I'm sorry. When you're in a castle where there's you know, all kinds of vermin running around and the only reason you don't see it is because the maids are sweeping up their droppings every morning, which, by the way, spread a bunch of diseases. It's not a time to just be hanging out life then, even yeah, I mean just even for nobility. You know, really poor people in America today there are just so much better off materially

speaking than royalty was back in those days. Yeah, well, I mean nobility almost you know, had it almost works off again because you know, it was that whole we got to paint our faces white and it was lead paint, and we've got to do all these things to make ourselves look rich, and they're just poisoning their bodies and horrible. But it's still very fascinating to me. Again, I'm sorry, we're super off track again. We are, let keep going, okay,

speaking about the scheming and everything like that. I mean, this is just the British royal family. But imagine what it would be like to be a member of the Saudi Royal family. Yeah, my god, insane? Right, what about what about like, um, what about getting his calling even. I mean, like there's like a chance that any human being has his d n A right, anyone, let's talk about that, anyone who's descended from mainland China. I think it's it's insane, it's an insane amount. Yeah, he populated that.

Yeah he was even. Yeah, Well, now that we've just talked about all kinds of naughty business, let's talk about a virgin queen. Let's talk about her. The mystery is did you have a did you have a kid? Elizabeth was never married, and there's been a lot of speculation about why. And I'm not so surprised personally because her mother and her stepmother, Katherine Howard, were both be headed

by Henry the Eighth. Yeah, I did not have great stereotype sterriage, did not idyllic idyllic marriage, just didn't have really good prototypes for marriage. It was yeah, I mean she just what she saw of marriage was just wasn't good. Yeah. Her friend Robert Dudley, who will be talking about a little bit, they knew each other since the age of eight,

and they were very close all throughout their lives. He said that much later that after the execution of Katherine Katherine Howard did is Elizabeth told him that she would never marry, and you see what she might be a little cynical about the whole marriage thing. But plus also marriage meant having kids, which was dangerous back in those days. As I said, Catherine of Aragon had six kids, three of whom were still born and two who died right after birth. And that's a lot and that was not

uncommon at all. That that's a lot of suffering to go through for no results. It really is. And there's I mean, that sounds crass. I understand what you're getting at. You know, it doesn't sound I mean, it's it's a reality of well, but it sounds harsh, but you're right, it is a reality absolutely. I mean, the chances of you dying in childbirth at that time is insane. Not only you know, to give birth to a stillborn child or a child who dies shortly after that, the fact

that you might die in childbirth was extremely high. I also wonder if maybe there was a bit of um. She was queen, she was ruling a country, but you know, typically nobility was men. So I almost wonder if you know, she thought if I marry someone, they will suddenly be in charge. It's very true. So that could have been part of it as well. And I know she didn't want to share power there. I mean there's a lot

of reasons, right, yeah. And another reason was that she had potential suitors amund the Royalty of Europe, one of which as King Philip of Spain, which was Spain at that time, was a lot more powerful than Britain, and it was it was thought that Philip might stage at hostile takeover, meaning like an invasion, and eventually eventually the Spanish did remember the Spanish Armata, Yeah, well, yeah, they were always they were all at war with each other constantly. Yeah, yeah.

And so but she kind of wanted to keep it ambiguous with Philip, you know, like maybe she was because he was interested in marrying she was keeping yeah, she was, yeah, and uh, and so she was just sort of keeping him put off because he was thinking, hey, if I'm marry Elizabeth, England's mind without having to fire a shot, and I got ninety nine problems for England eight one, you guess. So, so Elizabeth was actually able to forestall war by doing this, by not marrying. Yeah, yeah, but

she did it for the good of England. Yeah she was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course, eventually Philip did get tired of waiting, a war did break out, and there was that whole defeat of the Spanish Armata, which was one of Elizabeth smell spectacular successes. Of course, some bad weather played a

big part in that too. Yeah. So, so a lot of the question about a lot of people think, wow, it's so mysterious she didn't marry and that figures into some other mysteries too, by the way, which we'll be talking about. But it's possible, it's understandable, okay. So okay, so our mystery is did she have a child? So how are we going to approach this? What's what's what? What?

Or how do you want to organize this? Joe, Well, I thought what I would do is I would list the list some of the guys that it's rumored that she had babies with a baby, at least at least one baby with yeah, and there are several candidates for that, and then we'll just talk about how plausible it is that something happened, and then maybe we'll talk about who might be children of yea, let's talk about possible fathers. The first one here, Yeah, okay, and these are just

the ones that people believe. Maybe the one and the first candidate is Thomas Seymour. After the death of Henry the Eighth, his widow at that time, that was his last wife, Katherine Parr, waited about six months and yeah, so she married Thomas Seymour. And that's a different Thomas Seymour than might be related to that James Seymour that that gave birth to James the six. I think that they're not. I thought they I thought that they were

distantly related, like cousins or something like that. Again, why I get so confused when we talked about these stories again they all have the same name. Yeah, I wish, you know, we need to do to the studios. We need to just paint that wall with a chalkboard material and then we can just you can and we'll use dry race. Yeah that's a good idea. Actually, yeah, but yeah, it got to the point where this is so convoluted.

I stopped trying to, like, you know, figure out who exactly, you know, what the relationship between all these people was. I know you did work with it, but it is it gets out of hand. Oh yeah, So Seymour Thomas Seymour. So she remarried, and then Elizabeth came to live with Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour for a while, I think about ten months. She was fourteen at that time. Yeah,

I think, a blooming woman. Yeah possibly. Yeah. Well, anyway, apparently Thomas took a big interest in her and had to have it showing up in Elizabeth's bedrooms, you know, like early in the morning and for alicking with her and tickling her and stuff like that, for quote unquote tickling sessions. Yeah. So I don't know how Elizabeth felt about this. She might have been flattered by the attention, or maybe she was annoyed or maybe a little creeped out.

Maybe she was really into it, and this is why he's he could potentially be the first man who has shown any attention to her, so that that would be the argument for maybe she actually wasn't put off by it, or you know, or he was in a position of power in her life and she was didn't feel like she was in a place to deny what he was doing. Yeah, that was she Maybe it might have felt a little bit too handed on. Yeah, I mean, they had opened

their home to her. She was an orphan. She was an orphan, and she was living in a style that she was maybe not necessarily accustomed to. And you know, they were they were being kind to her, and so she thought, well, they're they're being nice to me, so I can't say no. And but that's what the situation was. Katherine Parr was apparently undisturbed by this behavior at first, but apparently kat Ashley was not cool with it at all. But Katherine had participated, She had participated a few times

in these tickling sessions. I can only imagine that Katherine didn't so much like Elizabeth, if only because she was an earlier child of her past husband's right, So yeah, maybe she didn't, but she liked her enough to take her in, so that was nice of her. But but apparently she decided that it would be best for Elizabeth to go live elsewhere. So apparently she decided, for some reason or another, she wasn't cool with Elizabeth and her

husband being under the same roof. So I don't know that anything ever actually happened, but we also don't know that nothing happened. We also don't know that either Elizabeth left the household in May at age fourteen, So there was that ten month period in which something could have happened. And what's the timeline after that? Is there kind of

some unaccounted for time in Elizabeth's timeline after that? No, there was never any period where she was like out of sight or anything like that where she could have just been like invisible. But this obviously, in this period of her life, she was an Yeah, she was a lot less in the public eye, and so it's conceivable she could have gone off somewhere and had a baby somewhere,

especially at thirteen or fourteen. It's not as though it's not unusual in those days, not even unusual these days actually, But yeah, But and then of course the offspring of this liaison was, according to the series, not other than William Shakespeare. I'm not sure if it's the same William Shakespeare, because Seymour died inte and shakes to be right. As far as I know, I was born in fifteen sixty four. But you don't know who Shakespeare was. It's hard to say.

And actually I'm not sure exactly what year he was born, because nobody actually has his actual date of birth. Nobody actually knows who Shakespeare was. Yeah, he was born, and he was not born. He was baptized in fifteen sixty four, as William Shakespeare I believe. So yeah, well, and and you know, in those days, even a hundred years ago, that whole baptism thing, the whole birth record thing was

kind of just whenever you felt like it. You know, I have family just a generation ago that they say, oh, yeah, this is my birthday because that's when mom wrote it in the Bible. My grandfather in fact, found out when he lifted in the army that he was a year older than he thought he was. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, I mean it happens pretty recently, so and that in

those days it could have totally happened. Oh yeah, So okay, but here's here's my thing with this Thomas Dudley bit oh I guess I should, yeah, And I want to add I also agreed it's not good. Okay, Okay. So the thing is, we haven't said, by the way, he was forty years old at this time. Yeah, older in her thirty nine or forty, depending on exactly when everything

went down. But my problem with the whole she was pregnant with his child is today it's it's possible for girls to get pregnant as early as twelve or thirteen. But there's there's the stuff about there's the sexual maturity is coming earlier based on diet. Have you ever read any of this stuff? Yes, okay, well you were looking at me like I was crazy. The reason I'm looking at you like you're crazy is because it's not unreasonable to think that in that time a girl who was

thirteen or fourteen years old would be pregnant. See, but I don't know the way I interpreted things. I took it as actually the norm for reproductive age was more in line with sixteen. But that's not to say that it's not possible. At what we're talking, rabbit test is possible as well. If we're say whatever is in the realm of possible. What's he talking about modern days? Like puberty coming very early for girls. We're talking like nine

and ten, not like thirteen and fourteen. That's a normal time for people to be hitting puber So even in those days, thirteen and fourteen totally normal for somebody to be getting pregnant. We're talking like these days. Okay, maybe maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm a misunderstanding what I read, but the stuff you're really reading average. Oh yeah, And that's the thing is that I'm looking at the average.

I'm not calling her an exception to the norm. I'm saying on average, that's a pretty tall order, fourteen to sixteen given two years. But no, I totally hear what you're saying. But yeah, but she was She was fourteen when she left, so I think she was old enough. I really do, because I don't know me and Juliet's the one I would go too. But well, but I'm written by William Shakespeare. Maybe it was inspired by his mother,

who got pregnant at sixteen or thirteen. Yeah, there's that's a whole another mystery, which well, I don't know if we'll ever tackle or not. Was Shakespeare was Shakespeare? Yeah, yeah, but that does seem like Shakespeare is involved in this quite a bit, in this whole Elizabeth thing. Yeah. Well, the other thing that I was gonna say is that Seymour like all of this stuff with him mucking about with Elizabeth, Well it feels wrong, and he exhibited some

really questionable behavior. But he got his head cut off the next year because he was in some plot and he was sneaking into the King's residence and he set off one of the dogs, and rather than like a normal person just running away, he shot the dog and made a big to do and then got out. Like the guy had really bad judgment all the way around. So I like, I I questioned whether he was just several screws loose and that's why he was messing with her, or if it was really some weirdo power play. The

whole thing just just smells really off to me. It was a little off, and it feels really convenient. Yes, right, Yeah, some of these feel like, okay, maybe maybe that's a legit theory, but a lot of them feel kind of like, well, that's very convenient that that would have happened at that time,

So yeah, so what let's rule him out. Although I gotta say that this is a period that I considered the most likely because it was before she ascended to the throne, so she would have been out of the public eye and it would have been easy for her to just kind of in nine months, it would have been easier. I mean, I still think it would have been pretty much impossible to keep it secret. Well, there is a way that it could have been kept secret,

you kill everybody who knows about it. No. No, she never brought the child to term, though it was illegal and highly frowned upon. Abortions did happen. So it is possible that she abhor did the child. And it's also possible, based on practices of it at the time, that that could have rendered her sterile, which is why she didn't never had a kid again and maybe why she chose not to have sex again. Yeah. This, this was this was not awesome. Don't don't really like that? Thanks? No,

not doing that again. Yeah, it might be. It might be that if she was truly molested by by Thomas Seymour, than maybe that kind of turned her off in the whole thing exactly. Yeah, so there's a very plausible answer, though again I consider Seymour, you know, not a good valid um candidate. Yeah, there are a lot of possible

reasons afterwards. Uh. Yeah. That One reason I don't really buy into him as a father is that after she left Katherine Parr's household, they still maintain a very friendly correspondence, which I think it would be kind of wouldn't you think it would be unlikely if Katherine, if her husband had impregnated Elizabeth. Do you think she would not be feeling all that friendly towards her. I would say that that would kind of chill the relationship. Yeah. Yeah, apparently

had a good relationship, so probably not Thomas. Next on our list Robert Dudley, Earl of Lester. And for those of you are not British, this is spelled its spelled Leicester, but this pronounced Leicester. I really we gotta, we gotta start a campaign. You either start adding vowels and continents consonants to town names in general just to repeat this pattern, or lobby all of England to change the spelling. I'm obviously going to marry Prince Harry when I'm queen, I'll

lobby for that. He married yet he's waiting for me. We were talking about Robert Dudley. One of my one of my favorite English town names is Dull and it's actually spelled the way it's pronounced d u l l. And they're the ones that had these sister city relationship with the town of Boring, Oregon. Yeah, of course they did, right, and these two towns really do exist. Okay, I will do an episode about that. Robert Dudley and Elizabeth had

known each other since they were eight years old. And as I said, they were the best of friends, and a lot of people suspected at the time that they were lovers because they were so close and Elizabeth Shower were childhood friends. Oh yeah, and so and so, especially one year royalty. And people are always trying to stab you in the back. It's probably not that many people that you can really trust. So that's gotta have something you would think of friends since you were eight you

probably could trust. Yeah, somebody who's never who's never done you wrong, and everything like that. And I think he was trustworthy and she she showered lots lots of favors on him, and and and of course made everybody think that they were lovers. Yeah, that did. Yeah, And there was lots of other I will get into every little detail, but there was lots lots of reasons. But yeah, he benefited quite a bit by his relationship with Elizabeth, financially

and otherwise. And of course Elizabeth was certainly was intensely grief stricken when he died, from the kind of grief that you would that you would show display when we lost somebody really close to you. Maybe a lover, yeah, but maybe a friend. I mean what could be could be that too. You know, if you have a true intense friend since you're eight, that person is your family. And yeah, yeah, definitely, and especially when the actual members of your family are either like you know, dead or

they're off like marrying a new stepmother. Oh yeah, so courting your cousin. Yeah, he was probably a more family like you said, and there was talk that they might potentially get married. But there was one hitch because Dudley was married himself. He married a woman named Amy Robesarte I'm pronouncing that correctly in fifteen fifty, and then she fell down some stairs at her home in fifteen sixty and broke her neck, which did clear the way for

Elizabeth and Robert Dudley to marry, which is handy. Yeah, but people considered it to be an assassination. Yeah. There was a lot of speculation that that Robert Dudley had her, had had her murdered, just so he could marry Elizabeth, and so he was very unpopular in England for a time, actually for quite quite a long time because of that.

Although personally I don't think he did it. That she had another mystery and you'll read the occasional article in Britain about it, you know, the unsolved mystery of her death and all that stuff. But the fact of the matter is that she had she had like advanced cancer at the time she died, so there was there was no reason for him to murder her at all. It was a matter of time. Yeah, yeah, okay, we'll put

that mystery down. But even without being married to Robert Dudley, it doesn't mean they couldn't have, you know, done the deed and had kids, or at least eight kid Some of some of the proposed offspring were Francis Bacon, france Is Bacon. Bacon, Yes, I know, Francis Bacon. How do you like that French? Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually you could be worse things. Yeah, absolutely, Bacon's pretty well liked Bacon.

It's pretty awesome. Yeah, they anyway, Francis Bacon. Of course, many people believe was maybe really William Shakespeare here he rears his ugly head again in here. So at this time Elizabeth would have been twenty eight. She would have been on the stone for three years. So I don't know, and we're coming. I know where Joe was going with this, which is a hard part of hiding it, Yeah, hiding

a pregnancy. Yeah, well we'll talk about that in a second, though, we can talk Yeah, I know what, we'll talk about it. Let me just toss a few more out there. Robert Devereaux, the second Earl of Essex. When Devereaux came onto the scene, he and Elizabeth became besties. And yeah, they were really close and some of the even said some of some people have speculated that they were actually lovers, like even though he was quite a bit younger than her, significantly

significantly younger. Yeah, but other people have said that they had more like a kind of a mother's son relationship and they were really close. So if it had been deverea oh, then she would have been thirty two years old when he was born. Some of the reasons I think people suspect him of this is he he was kind of a bad actor sometimes. I mean, they had they had a good relationship, but he was kind of

a loose cannon. And didn't he get himself killed well by Elizabeth, Yes, she executed him finally, Yeah, because he kept doing stupid stuff, yeah, exactly, and so eventually she felt she hadn't choice. And I suppose it's possible that a mother would have her her son executed. Ye, sounds kind of unlikely. Well, but he did some read she kept giving him military commissions and he kept no showing, which is a huge no no, Like, just show up

and stay in the tent for God's sake. Yeah, and just you know, and in the end you got involved in a plot you know again which you know, against your own mother. Huh. Maybe don't do that. Of course, maybe he didn't know that he was actually her son, but I still find it hard to believe that she would do that rather than just like have him locked up permanently in the tower as yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's

talk about another candidate, who was Arthur Dudley. Dudley showed up in the court of Philip with Spain in seven and claimed to be the son of Robert Dudley and Elizabeth he said. He said that he was raised unaware of this by a guy named Robert Southern, who told him on his deathbed who he really was, and Dudley fled the country, he said, because he was afraid that Elizabeth agents would murder him to keep the secret that he now knew, which makes no sense. Yeah, now, if

they were going to kill you. They'd have killed you a long time ago. Well, they have no idea when you were told the truth. Well, the only guy, the only guy who knew was the guy who told him, who died immediately afterwards, Robert Southern. So he just kept his mouth shut. He was perfectly safe. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm not sure how much of that makes sense. Arthur Dudley did actually exist. Their strong evidence at least that

he did. There's there's mention of even the records in Elizabeth's court that they were aware that he showed up at Philip's court in Spain. The thing that though he showed up in the cord, it's really suspected that he wasn't really who he said. He wasn't. By that, I mean, he wasn't. He may not have actually been Arthur Dudley because there were spies everywhere, and it seems like there's some research that indicates it he was a spy who really stuck to his story. It would not let it go.

That is what a lot of people believed at the time time. Yeah, so it's uh, it's I don't know too many people to take this guy seriously. I mean, he was he wasn't around it. He did make these claims, but he was probably just an impostor. And when do we know, um, when would he have how old was he? When't we have been born? He would have been born? Well,

it depending. I've heard various estimates, but based on his age, it was it was estimated that he was about twenty five, I think, and that he would have been born maybe in fifteen sixty one. And uh so in summer fifteen sixty one, there was one significant thing, which was that Elizabeth was ill. She got she had this spell where she came down with edema, which is swelling of the tissues.

And at the time right exactly, and maybe she could have been pregnant, you know, she was bedridden and all that. And then so this is also around and sorry, how old would she have been? She would have been twenty eight? Okay, I mean, yeah, I at that as as someone who is currently twenty eight years old. At that time, that seems like it would be late to be pregnant. Yeah, in that day and age, that seems like a late pregnancy. Yeah, we're talking. You know, people are getting pregnant of fifteen,

sixteen seventeen, maybe as early as thirteen fourteen. Maybe you know, to carry a baby to term and have it be healthy and survive. It's not unheard of, certainly it's not unheard of, but it seems it's the older you get, the harder it is. Well, yeah, I mean I understand, and with modern medicine it's like fine, But at those times when we were like, hey, yeah, leeches, that will solve your problem, no problem, yeah, or what was it they were given they would give mothers during or after

childbirth or got did you guys know that just recently? Yeah, here's yeah, no problem. Yeah, no, you're gonna be good. It's some old it's fine. I know your body thinks that that's poison and which anyway, Yeah, that's that's why a lot of that stuff was like like alcohol, for example, it makes you feel better, it makes you good. Good, Yeah,

it's really kind of poison. So and things like like blood letting and stuff like, well it happened the blood pressure drop would make you high and would make you light headed and feel you would think that's fine, and then and they concluded, hey, you know this must be beneficial because they report feeling better, and so yeah, it's possible. It's totally possible. And the fact that she was sick with dropsy, which you know, bedridden for a couple of months, swollen,

I hear it. Yeah, maybe she was pregnant. I don't know. Let's let's go go on for our next Well, I'm sorry, just quickly. Wasn't that about at the same time that Francis Bacon was? Yeah, it was born too. Yeah, so make sure. So it was either Francis Bacon A. K. Shakespeare or was Arthur Deadley or neither one? Neither, Yeah, or she actually just had a demon. Yeah, probably that's what it was. I mean, I can I can't imagine.

I mean, I know a demon causes swelling, but that would be a lot of swelling, you know what I mean to be actual pregnancy sized. I mean, I I every woman carries a pregnancy different and uh, you know, I've seen pictures of people who I like, didn't believe are pregnant, who are like nine months pregnant. And I've also seen pictures of people who are nine months pregnant that I think, like, you're just obese. It's hard to tell.

It's just it's hard to tell. Everybody cares a pregnancy differently, and if you've got all these corsets and you're kind of bedridden and people are thinking, oh, you're sick, it's possible. I don't know. I'm not willing to discount it. Yeah, okay, well, let's go on to our next suspect, who was Edward de Vere seventeenth Earl of Oxford, who of course, was also rumored to be William Shakespeare. I know, I know,

I'm I don't know. I mean, there's a whole huge community out there people who are or were arguing back and forth on it. This guy was Shakespeare, this guy was Shakespeare. They have all kinds of theories and evidence and everything, and again that may be an episode in there. Who you never know, I don't know. I mean, we're gonna have to get some serious scholarly work done if we're gonna do that. I mean, these guys are these guys are hardcore. I mean, these guys aren't just guys.

Aren't read it or anything like that. They're writing books about yeah, slamming read it. But yeah, this is a little more scholarly. But anyway, back to our thing, the offspring of Oxford and Elizabeth would have been a guy named Henry Ry Osley, who was born in fifteen seventy three, And I don't know whatever I want on to happen to Henry, but there's not much out there on him.

But at this time, Elizabeth would have had to have been about forty, which causes me a little bit of doubt that forty seriously at that a and there's now even now it's tough to get pregnant forty. Yeah, yeah, So the problem I have with all these series is that is it again, this all took place after ascended to the throne except the first one. The except for

the first one was with Thomas. So it's like imagining it would have been a little easier than it's, say, Princess Diana going about her everyday business pregnant, not having a paparazzi not notice it. But still there's a lot of people around. There would have had to been people attending to her childbirth and stuff like that. So somebody

you would think would have talked. Do you think after Yeah, at least after the fact, you would think, you you can understand maybe while she was alive, you know, you're keeping somebody rich there there's no reason to talk. But yeah, I mean, there's a good reason not to make the queen mad but running your mouth. But at the same time, a lot of people would have written it down in their memoirs or their diaries, their journals that would have

been mentioned of it. I wanted to talk about one more suspect for a father, which was a guy named Miles Stafford, and he has very recently been put forward by a guy named Seth Margolis who published a novel called The Simpers on It. I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to reveal this, but but does have a child very early in the book. And again much I want to I want to clarify is a work of fiction. But Seth did a ton of research.

He did a lot of research for this book. Uh yeah, and so, uh let me give you a quick rundown of the plot. Our protagonist is a woman named Lee Nichols. So she's discovered a previously unknown sonnet by William Shakespeare. When she goes public with it, all hell breaks loose and she finds out that some people really really want that sonnet for reasons you'll discover if you read the book. Uh So, anyway, it's it's it's a fun it's a fun read. Seth. We actually were able to get ahold

of him. He was. He was kind enough to actually answer some questions about Elizabeth and his research and uh and his book, and so let's talk to Seth here for a second. So Seth, thanks for thanks for talking to us. We really appreciate it. And I guess my first question for you is that you have found a new potential father for a child that Elizabeth might have had named Miles Stafford. So did Myles really exist? And

already say, it's okay, it was much. I found it much more interesting to invent him and then dispatch him quickly. You never really hear from him other than that he had um this rare genetic disorder that passed on the this um tendency to shivering, as someone calls it in the book, which was an interesting um sort of way to keep his sort of lineage alive. Was you know,

not in a particularly positive way. Um. It also made it, you know, when you're writing a thriller, it made it interesting because you know, when the uh Lee Nicholson, the twenty first century heroin of the book, would come across various locations where the Filer family lived Um, she would seat, for instance, two fireplaces in one room and realized, you know, that became an indication that these people who lived there

had a real obsession with staying warm. So that's the one thing that that I had my fictional father of the of the Elizabeth than offspring um pass on to his to his descendants um. And of course the name filer you know, as you know because you read the book, it's full of wordplay and the you know, the word filer um is an adaptation of the French word feast for son and e er of course for Elizabeth Rex and French was the main language spoken at the time

of her version of it in the Elizabethan court. So it was like, you know, it was interesting or likely that she would have had, if she had a child, might have given him that name just as a sort of sly reference to who his his at least his mother was. So in real life one candidate for a

child was Elizabeth. That's really popular with a lot of people, as Robert Devereau, what do you think about as a suspect, and right, he was one of several people that she sort of showered her um royal pleasures on in ways that that um mystified people at the time, you know, why him, and so there were always rumors and she did, she did have a very close relationship with his father, Robert Dudley, also known as m Lester, And you know, I think she had his bedroom moved next to hers,

and you know, there are all sorts of so you know, if if there was going to be an offspring, it would have been most likely with him, and there was actually there was someone named Arthur Dudley who surfaced at one point who claimed to be the offspring of the two of them shut up at Philip of Spain's place. Yeah, because the Catholics never never saw her as a legitimate well as legitimate period, but as a legitimate monarch of England.

So if they could find any sort of scandal that would um you know, add further illegitimacy to her, it would work to their ends. And in fact, in my book, that's one of the reasons that she um disguises the fact that she had a child, was that it would just it would imperil her her claim to the throne.

And of course in the Samprasan, she has the child before she becomes queen most of the rumors about or the theories about her having a child have her having the childs while she was queen, and and there's and as I said, there's so many of them. You know, she at one point, um, she she took to her bed she had some sort of mysterious illness on which I think they called at the time dropsy, but today we would call it a demon, which is the swelling

in the mid section. So of course if you, um, and I think that's pretty much historical fact that she had, that she was taken to her bed with dropsy or a demon, and that she had a swollen abdomen. So if you're inclined to think that she had a child, this might have been a good time for that child to have been carried, because she had you know, she could have used that as an excuse to to disguise

her pregnancy. The last question, You've got a lot more research on this really than we have, And so I guess i'd like to know, do you really think Elizabeth had a child? You know, I don't know. I would suspect not. I tend to be a discounter of conspiracy theories, um, And so you know, it was a really intriguing idea for a novel, And there are bits and pieces of her life and the circumstances around it that might lead you to think she had a child. Um but I

tend to think she didn't. But you know, I think it's sort of like, you know, if you think about the Kennedy assassination. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist in general, so I think Lee Harry as Oswald acted alone. But a lot of people just feel that it's it's just unthinkable that this great man, who was so beloved at the time and maybe even more so in retrospect, could

be brought down by one lunatic with good aim. You wanted to be a conspiracy because it seems unfitting that such a great person could be eliminated by such a nobody. With Elizabeth, there's a similar frustration that arguably the greatest certainly the greatest monarch and in English history, and maybe one of the great leaders in world history, just and you know her her line ended with her death and the tutors were no more, her genes were no more.

How could that be? It just it doesn't seem fitting somehow, um, So people constantly want her to um to have left something behind um and and in the way, that's the I think that's part of the fascination with her in general, and it's and it's certainly the reason that a lot of these theories continue to flourish. And it's really the reason I wrote the book. It said, I tend to think you're probably right. I think that it's unlikely. Like you say, people just can't accept it. And people love

to speculate about royalty. That's just a major sport here in America and Europe here. Yeah, well we do. It's British royalty is a lot of people seem to worship those people. Anyway. Thanks, thanks again to Seth for talking to us his book. If you care to pick it up and read it, it's called The Snappers on It little book. Oh yeah, it's fun read. Uh. Now back

to our mystery for a second. Here. There's one other permutation of this, which is that she didn't have a child because she couldn't have a child because she was actually a guy. Oh god, yeah, yeah, Okay, I'm gonna let your own with this movie because I want to have a heyday with it. I just want to let you tell the story because this one is so outlandish to me. It is, it is, but it's crazy. It's funny to me because it's so crazy. This story actually

has a pretty good pedigree, though you know that. It's sometimes called the Busley Boy, and it begins with Bram Stoker, who you may have heard of if you haven't heard of him. And he's the guy who wrote Tracula, which is yeah, which book. Yeah, it is actually a pretty influential book when you think about it. It's got some bite.

Stoker claim the story isn't actually not something he made up, but it actually originated in the village of Busley in Gloucestershire, which is where he heard the original story from the locals, and he wrote about in a book called Famous Impostors, which he published in nine So, according to Stoker's story, Elizabeth was sent to Busiley in fifteen forty three or fifteen forty four. Dates are a little vague due to

a plague outbreak in London, and I checked in. There was some plague at loose in London at that time, although it was not the Great Plague which was the one that really slaughtered a lot of people. But ironically and busily she got sick and died anyway, and her governess Cat Ashley, remember her, learned that Henry the eighth was on his way for a visit. So what to do? This is kind of actually kind of like a sitcom. You know, you've been you're taking care of your friends,

Cat and killed you find the duplicate, wasn't there? I didn't Cramer pull that once or something on Seinfeld. Yeah, that's it's that's a well recycled plot line. Yeah, it is. So Cat come the village looking for a little girl who looks similar to Elizabeth. Then couldn't find anybody. And by the way, you know, isn't that weird? And some people who come around looking at your kids saying can we borrow your kid for like a couple of decades for the royal Yeah, that would have been that would

have been tricky. But then she had an idea. There was this little boy who lived nearby, and Elizabeth actually been playing with him somewhat and he was thin and pale and about the same size and had reddish hair like Liz. And so she had this idea that, well, we'll swap We'll swap the little boy and we'll dress him in girl's clothes, and Henry will be totally fooled. And so Henry is an idiot. Yeah, and of course he was fooled because he's an idiot. Yeah. And uh,

the other question, he didn't notice the hair die. Yeah. What I'm when I'm curious about is a ram Stoker. I'll take his word for it and be honestly, was told this story. But how had they kept this for centuries? And he said that they were so isolated that the story just never got out. That's what he actually wrote. I read that. I read part of his famous Impostors book. It doesn't make any sense to me, but okay, yeah, yeah, go ahead, Yeah, well anyway, here's here. Here are bram

Stoker's reasons why it probably is true. Number when Elizabeth was very secretive. She seemed to have a big secret because some people said, uh number two. She was very close to her inner circle, just several people. She treated them all very favorably, kept them all close, and that was probably her way. I'm sorry we debunking this now. Yet she refused to marry. There were rumors that she couldn't bear children. There was apparently, he says, I had

no way of checking this. I didn't. There was that correspondence between Elizabeth and Catherine Parr. Apparently that the style of those letters changed after this, after this. Uh. And one of her teachers felt that she was way too smart and clear thinking to be a woman. I'm just I'm like, I'm actually offended by that. And this is like thousands of years later, and I am offended thousands. Yeah, tack it up with Bram. Just keep going. I am obviously not a man, so I am not as smart

and clear thinking well as queen. Can I point something out? Hundreds Steve and I always sell her mystery, don't actually, Joe, can I point something out? Only you ever solved the mystery? Wait? Wait, wait wait, can I point something out? Joe's a liar? He never saw Alright, fine, let's get back here. Let's see. She had a large wig collection, which obviously she was probably using to cover up exactly, That's why I have them. Yeah.

She had only a few regular doctors, and she refused to ever see any other doctors because they're going to find out that guess what, she's got something going on down there. Uh. And she also insisted that no autopsy would be done after her death. So okay, all those good reasons. Yeah, but on the other hand, it's still hard to believe Henry the eighth was session idiot that he wouldn't notice that while while the Royalty didn't spend all day every day with their child, they wouldn't know

what their child looked like. So yeah, that's a difficult one. Yeah, and and and frankly, you know, it's it's a really big gamble because you've got to hope you've not only found yourself a little boy who sort of resembles Elizabeth, but who actually has some acting skills and knows something about Elizabeth's life. And so that was a big chance

that Kat was taking there. Uh, the other reason that the wigs Elizabeth there were big people that actually saw her without her wigs on, and she wasn't bald, she had a full head of hair. She didn't she didn't have a full head of hair. She had small scars because she got smallpox at one point and she she had pretty severe scarring from it. And that was one of the reasons that I've seen listen that she had she got she had more wigs after that was to

cover the bald spots that were caused by the scar. Yeah, but it wasn't male pattern, No, it wasn't. It wasn't my hair line, which is a very shallow hair line, by the way, I would back there, I would I would also suspect that of like a symptom of lead poisoning. There's always that. You know, a lot of a lot of dishwaar in those days was made of lead. They that lead was so malleable you could hammer it into

all kinds of nice shapes. But I keep bringing that up because the white face paint that they used was literally lead base. So the white face paint that Elizabeth would have been slathering all over her face and putting on her lips every day was lead. It was like so much lead. Yeah, but I guess also like lead leads to infertility, like poisoning does lead into fertility, So that's the problem too. It leads to a lot of organ issues. But I mean those are ye bring that

up because she smeared all over her face a little time. Yeah, but again that there was a lot of lead and everything. They were ingesting it all the time. But no no, yeah, yeah, yeah, not good for you, but it does very bad things. Yeah. Oh, back to back to where she was a guy thing. Apparently Elizabeth did have periods because Philip with span was, as you know, interested in knowing whether she could bear children, because he was still thought there was a chance that

he was going to get to marry her. Of course he wanted an air, but his spies bribed the queen's launderers for details of whether she was menstruating. Did she ever cycle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And the answer came back, well, yeah, she she is menstruating. Obligatory. Just because you get your period doesn't mean that your fertile statement. I guess that. Yeah. What's the other thing? She often wore dresses with low necklines. Have you met a drag queen? Ever? What? What the

hell does that mean? Yeah? I don't know. How are you saying that she She couldn't have been because she would have had a hairy chest if she was. None of her portraits seemed to have her be particularly busty. That's true, she could have been. It should have been a guy with a push up rock. She wore those really tight corsets. And the other thing that I was thinking of, Okay, holy hell, I'm gonna, I mean, actually

defend this for a second. Is that to have the voice of a woman and to have some of the lighter build. There's an easy way to have a boy do that castration, which is to make up a Eunich and then the test astro doesn't kick in and all that pesky hair doesn't show up. Good point. And actually, frankly, I'm looking at pictures, you know, portraits of Elizabeth now and they're all like, very flat chested. And she also had the neck ruffle that she loved to wear that

would also cover up the difference between her neck. But they're very flat chested. That was what was in style at that point. I know, of course it's were rather tight. Well, they were tight, but they also that was in style was to have no boobs at that time. You know nothing, you know, I don't know, maybe I can't imagine that

every being style, but okay, here not much outs. I mean, you know, if if it's hard to believe they could have castrated the kid, because if if somebody said, hey, you know, just to just make this whole list tarade work out, we're gonna have castrated, I think I would be like slipping out the back door and heading on home. Do you think even if somebody was like, but literally, you will be the richest person in this country and

you will rule it. That's true. But I watched I watched Alma Dais, and that kid was kind of down with it. I can see this being okay, okay, all right, okay, we'll go with that. Then yeah, okay, so Liz got castrated and then thank you. Yeah, okay, actually over. I don't know if you guys looked at the Elizabeth files. Oh lord, how could I not? Yeah, it is a huge trove of information. Yeah, it is amazing. Actually, we'll post a link to the Elizabeth Files if you're really

interested in learning more about Elizabeth's is pretty cool. It's well written, well organized. It is well organized. It is. It is one of those sites. I've said this about sites before, is I feel like there is so much information on them that it's overwhelming. I read two or three or four are because I remember how many I read on there, and then they would keep coming up in searches and I just stopped going there because there was so much detail. It's quite well done. Oh yeah,

it is. It's research that's definitely authoritative. But I got this little tidbit from from the Elizabeth files, which was that at some point during Mary's negotiations with the various monarchs around Europe, a panel of doctors examined Elizabeth. Yeah, that's actually could still bear children. I mean, this is a real big deal back in those days. And yeah,

they gave me the conclusion that she could. Well, I'm not sure how they could have examined her that closely to the terms she could have children without noticing that she had a little something extra down down there. You know you think, yeah, you would, you would probably, Yeah, you would notice if Elizabeth was actually a dude. Let's be fair, Yeah, I think you would. Though again, in fairness, just examining somebody doesn't mean that you're gonna be able

to tell if they can have a kid. Yeah. I don't know how you tell that either, I don't know. Okay, Well, so okay, to answer our questions, Uh, did she send the run up colonists off to their death? Yes? Absolutely, absolutely she did. H Yeah, she actually like when they opened up their food supplies, I found there was nothing but lead makeup in there. Pretty sure, makeup and neck ruffles. Yeah, sucks to be you anyway. The next question, did she have a child I'm kind of doubting it. Um maybe,

but I really kind of doubted. I think we would have heard something. I don't know, because my I have a hard time with unless it was even if it was somebody like like Seemore, somebody after the fact, that there were ways for for contraception, and there were practices postcopulation, you know, for making sure that a he didn't didn't come to full term. These things happen, and those things like I mentioned earlier. I mean, I saw stuff in the reading that that can have a permanent effect on

a woman's ability to be able to bear children. So I could see how that that's that's why where I lean. I mean, I don't think that she was actually the virgin Queen. I don't think that she abstained for her entire No, So that's why that's why I leaned to that direct. Yeah. No, I think if she was pregnant, it had to have happened before she ascended to the throne. If she ever had a child, it would have had had happened, was the queen, you know, and I but

I do agree it seems unlikely, but it's possible. But I also totally disagree with the whole idea that obviously William Shakespeare has to be the child of Elizabeth. That's just that's silly to me. But I I don't think she probably had a child, but if she did, it was very early in her life, and that person would have been raised totally supper from her and probably unlikely probably not of her own consent, right, I mean that

that baby would have been taken away from her. Yeah, it would have been like, you know, you're not even gonna know who you can is probably, which would be a disincentive to ever do it again, exactly. Yeah, it would be. Yeah. Okay, last question. We'll see you guy, Okay, alright, fine, Uh well, I guess that's it for this week. If you have any thoughts about this, if if you're descending from Elizabeth, of course, uh, we would love to hear

from you, so, especially if your name is Prince Harry. Yeah, so write us at Thinking Sideways Podcast. So write us at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. There's also our website, of course, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. You can listen to the episodes. You can check the links that we put up for further information, and we will put up a link to the Elizabeth Files and there's a ton of st up out there. You'll enjoy it.

We're on iTunes, so subscribe, leave us a review and rating, and we love those really good ratings. Especially for streaming. You can stream us all over the place. So now we don't have any recommendations there really. We're on Facebook, Thinking Sideways podcast. Right on Facebook, of course we all we have our page and also the group. You can join the group and you can like you know, there's all kinds of good groupie. Yeah, you can be a groupie.

There's lots of good commentary and and just conversation out there. We're on Twitter, We're thinking Sideways, and of course we have a subreddit which which has got some stuff going on every now and again at least yea. And the last of all, we're on Patreon, so if you want to support the show, totally optional, but if you want to, you can go out and you can pledge a certain amount of money per episode, so be be aware of that.

If you decide you want to get real generous and give us fifty bucks, just remember that's fifty bucks every episode. So which is why we have things like the PayPal button. If you want to do it one time and that's more conducive to your budget, then that's why that's there. Yeah, you can do got the merch too, Yeah, we got merch. We've got like T shirts and mugs and shirts. Somebody bought the Mary Celeste the other day. I saw that. Yeah, that's that's really cool. I I have not actually yet

seen the Mary Celeste T shirt. I gotta go out and look at it. What is your dealings of things? Yeah, no, I'm probably gonna have to get one for myself. I thought about buying you one. Yeah, and then I decided I'm going to get a bumber stare for my car there. Yeah. Yeah, actually I bye bye pstus by the gross and put them on all kinds of people's cars. Yeah. I'm not endorsing that now, probably no. Emotionally, yes, yeah I like it. Uh So that's Patreon dot com, slash thinking sideways or

the website. Yeah for merch. Yeah all right, Well that's it for Elizabeth. Another great historic mystery solved. So yeah, you bradish people to police. Don't be offended by all this. Yeah, I don't think she had a kid. Yeah, you guys, I know I'm not passion enough Yeah me, neither alright, by everybody, hie guys.