Thinking Sideways: Death of Hugues de la Plaza

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five bucks. Check them out. Thinking I don't know stories of things, we simply don't know the answer too. Bye there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your ghost this week, joined as always by Steve and and what's your name? I'm Joe? Sorry did I not say my name? I'm Joe. Sorry. Okay, what are we gonna talk about this week? Did we have any script for this week? I don't know you were the Boss of the Man. Okay, well here I got one. Here. This is from the

bottom of my suitcase. Uh. This is the death of de la Plaza. And that's spelled just so you know. It's h u g u e s. That's French French words. It's our French names pronounced uh de la Plaza uh and uh. He was killed in San Francisco in June two thousand seven, so almost San Francisco. Yeah, he died. I guess I should say he died first of all, before we go to further on, to give a shout out to our listener, Andrew, who suggested this mystery and who probably is a killer also but tried just trying

to keep it along. I think I think so, Andrew, you're not pooling us, but thanks anyway, And hopefully he didn't kill him just for just to create a mystery for us. But this is before we started recording, so we're saying, yeah, I think it's one of the reasons we have that five year rule. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so so quick, very quick, biographical stuff on Uga Plaza. He was French, but he had dual French American citizenship. His parents still live in France. As far as I know,

they're still alive today. And by the way, they would still like to know exactly what happened, because he did have a strange, mysterious death and there were some really big unanswered questions. Last I heard, they put up a hundred thousand dollar reward for any information regarding us demise, and as far as I know, the reward is still around you guys, Have you guys heard anything one way, anything to the contrary. But I hadn't really trapped down the reward part. Back to back to he had lived

in the US. I believed he lived in New York for a little while and then moved to San Francisco. He had been in SF for about four years and then uh, in two thousand seven, at age thirty six. Well, he died. And that's what we're going to talk about, is why did he die? What else did he do? He worked while he was there at a company called Lee Prague, which is an educational toy and oh yeah, they're around then. They're still cracking out those devices to

educate your kids and all that stuff. So they're they're big actually. Uh and he was, I guess a sound engineer. Ye. Yeah, And so it sounds like a good job. One of those hype in Bay Area jobs would be one of the one per center. Was that in that was during the Was that during the tech bubble? Uh? No, the tech bubble was a little earlier. That was late nineties. Okay, you're right, right. I just every time I think of that kind of general area, like it was it in

the bubble or not? But it was still a good paying job. You know, it might turn out that is it is in the bubble, just the second bubble. We'll find It's possible. It's entirely possible. It's the world. Yeah, well this bubbles all around us. Uh. But anyway, back to our mystery, who also had a long term girlfriend for about four years. Her name was Melissa Nix, and if you've read any of the websites or news specials

about this show, you've heard of her. Uh. They had unfortunately broken up by the time our Mystery occurred, and he was dating around, apparently dating quite a lot. He was a ladies man apparently. Yeah, that French accent didn't hurt, right. Yeah. He was also an attractive young man. No, not a bad looking guy. He's got the heavy eyebrows and that's one of the things that you know, chicks dig, is heavy eyebrows on a guy that says testosterone or something.

I don't, yeah, but they do like that. And he had really heavy eyebrows. He was French. Yeah, I was at it, okay, I ah, yeah. He was also besides meeting girls in bars, which apparently he was very good at, he would also meet them online. And in fact, on the on the date of his death, he had a first date somebody they had met online. So I think we got well, we don't know what he was murdered doing. I was gonna say I was gonna name her as

a killer, but I guess I can't quite do that yet. Yeah, And I guess that actually was the day before his death, because technically he died in the wee hours of June second night, two thousand and seven, but the date was on in the evening Friday June one. But accorney to one of Who's friends, uh, he was at to get as much you know what as he possibly could, and he didn't really care where he got it. He was not discriminating, and he wasn't worried, really worried about it.

Somebody had a boyfriend or a husband or whatever. He just didn't care. And of course that could be said for a lot of guys, probably most guys. Really, yeah, that's kind of true. So they'll they'll do it. Yeah, I'm not dissing you by any means, so don't take don't get me wrong here, but yeah, but he kind of had a one track mind. He was looking for lots of you know what. But to repeat, he did have a first date. It was somebody that he had

met online. That was on Friday evening and I don't know if he cut the date short, but he winded up meeting with ends later on. Well, he had said the date. He told his friends that the date didn't go so well, yeah I did. Yeah, And so maybe he just sort of like being an excuse and got out of there and ont met his friends to go drinking, or maybe she did the same, or maybe she said it was nice to meet you, I have to go.

And I was going to say in my brain when he said it didn't go well, it's because he wasn't like in her bed he was getting drinks with his friends. Maybe that's what he meant to I don't know. It could have been, or it could have eventually just sat there stereo his adovate and she was fingering this really big knife. But well, no, don't, don't. I'm getting ahead of myself here. But for whatever reason, it didn't work

out and he didn't get any you know what. So he's meeting with his friends at this place called Underground s F, which is on Hate Street in San Francisco, not far from his apartment. Hate Street is spelled for those of you who don't know H A I G H T. It's not h A T E and angry. Yeah, no, not at all. Uh, it was about six blocks from's apartment. I think that would That would explain why they met there. It's just very convenient for yeah, very handy for him. Yeah, totally.

And apparently they were gonna they celebrated promotion at work. He'd got a promotion making more money or something. While he was there, of course, he told his friend Nil's rama that the date had not gone. Well, it's so weird to me, I guess, I don't know, it's just weird to me that you would plan a date and then plan a party with your friends, like a couple hours later. It's a Friday afternoon. It could have been as simple as a meat for happy hour drinks quote

unquote date, first date. I've done this work. It's like, hey, do you want to grab a happy hour drink or a cup of coffee? Because the great thing about having a first date in that situation is you're just having a drink, so you're not tied to wait for a meal or anything like that. And being happy hour it's cheap. So if the whole thing sucks, you're out five bucks

and boom, done gone. I guess I in my mind, he was after one thing, and that one thing doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a short end ever. But but he probably told her at the outside. He probably said, look, and let's get together. Let's have a few drinks, but I've got to meet my friends later for drinks, and then he was all set to probably probably ditch his friends and go home with her if that occurred, or or you know, let's let's make a

night of it, and you want to come. It's going good, you want to come with me? I've had I've had situations like that, was like, listen, I gotta go to this thing. You want to come along, cool, let's keep going. I mean, there's all of your girlfriends that you have currently on top of your wife. Yeah, they're not on top of well yeah, but anyway that that didn't wind

up happening. So he was drinking with the buds and uh, it doesn't seem that the bad day it really crushed spirits because I think he was playing the numbers to see and all that he probably already had somebody else lined up for Saturday night. And by the way, she's probably still wondering why he never shown. And it's so it's worth noting that it wasn't as though he came and was really despondent and like upset the state going well, he just said it didn't go well, let's get on

with our night. He was actually, according to his friends, in a very good mood. Yeah. Yeah, that's I feel like that's important to set up the rest of the night that we make sure that every it's very clear that he was in a good mood, not moby, not depressed, and he certainly didn't say anything about fearing for his life or they ought to get me here. You know, if I wind up dead, you know it's going to

be before I'm really sad. Yeah, the octopus. Yeah, I mean, of course, there is this one theory, which is that actually things seem to be really going well for him. He'd been promoted, he was doing well financially, living in San Francisco, you know, which is a nice, cool town, getting lots and lots of you know what, and he might have decided that, you know, it's not going to get any better this than this. It's only downhill from here, so I might as well go out in the high

note suicide. Yeah. I don't know if anybody it actually does that not include that when theories come up, I would agree with that. Uga left his friends and left Underground Essa about one am Saturday morning, in the wee hours, and he told Neil's Arama, his friend and coworker, that he'd get together within the next day to ride motorcycles together. Um,

and apparently that never happened, unfortunately, Yeah, barely. Neil called him multiple times, Yeah, Saturday and Sunday both, Yeah, like leaving an angry message and say where are you a loser? Or something. Yeah, and yeah, he had no idea. Of course, I wonder why he never called him. Yeah, I don't know. We'll find out. Yeah, as our mystery progressive here the usual eyewitness reports. Who was reportedly seen by somebody at

the intersection of Hate and Webster about two am. That seems like a weird timeline, doesn't it a little bit? A little bit because he's only like six blocks from his house. Yeah, and he left his friends at and

so it's it is kind of hard to say. I mean, maybe he actually bumped into some people on his way towards the front door and bumped into some more people side, I mean, who knows, or maybe swung by the bathroom on the way out, or maybe his friends, like you know, somebody misread the clock, you know, if they were all drinking.

It's pretty it's pretty unreliable sources. Yeah, exactly what time it was, Well, we also don't know how the person who saw him was keeping time, I mean a fast watch or a fast clock, or they may have estimated it on They may have said they called closing time and I was outside and five minutes later I saw so it must have been after too. Not understanding that bar time is always fifteen minutes faster. Again, thou the ways that could have gone absolutely, yeah, I totally are.

And and then he was caught. So the distance from the front door of the club and the intersection of Hayting Webster it's about a hundred ft. Yeah, so yeah, that's not too far. So I think somebody's time was a little bit off there. But he was also spotted on a security camera nearest apartment at two or six am. This idea is a little bit suspect. It's not a clear. One of these days security cameras are actually to discover that thing called high resolution. They're not there yet, but

one of these days. But it's really dark, yeah, I mean you've seen the image. Yeah, and they had to adjust the image to to see the silhouette that they believe is So it doesn't really matter too much. I mean it's not said that timeline for the murder. It does help tie things together. Yeah, I mean, if what you were saying is right, and somebody was all was like fifteen minutes off in their time and they saw him at two am, I could see him getting back to his apartment about two or six or so. It's

not very far. Yeah, not at all. So he easily could have made it back in that time, but he did, long story short, make it home. It appears that he actually got home ate a little food because there was a plate we had some rice and peas on it on the sketch and counter. Yeah, so I ate a little bit. It also appears a little post bar food. Yeah, the booze exactly. And what was he absorbing the booze with? Okay, sure, why not? It's not what I would choose, greasy bacon

or something. Well that's why we're not French. Probabusually used like more booze to absorb the booze works, Well, yeah it doesn't work, and then it's a good way. Yeah, but whatever. So he had a little food served some websites or maybe approximately half an hour round I guess more dating websites. I think mostly dating websites. Yeah, so he was Yeah, he had, like I said, kind of

a one track mind. And there's uh, something's happened, and not in any particular order, but he was stabbed three times. He went outside to the sidewalk in front of his apartment building. He came back inside, locked the dead bolt to his front door, staggered around the apartment until he bled to death, and it looks like from the blood trail he likes staggered kind of into the kitchen, like through the hallway into the kitchen and then back out

into the living room and eventually fell down. And it wasn't a coherent path, not really now, not at all. But you know, I've never been stabbed three times, so hey, no, I mean, I don't think it's possible to have a coherent path when you have three tuns like that. But yeah, anyway, but he uh, he walked past his cell phone at least once, didn't pick it up to call on one one. There were no bloody fingerprints on the cell phone, um,

and he didn't the all for help. There were sort of signs of a struggle, like his TV and some other stuff was knocked over, but you know, some maybe he was in a fight to the desk with somebody in his apartment, or maybe he was just staggering around

knocking stuff over randomly. Too hard to say. So I know you're going to describe the wound shortly, but based on the amount of blood loss, I mean, if you when you go and people that are going to go look for the crame scene photos and they're they're out there, and there is literally blood everywhere on the walls, on the floor, on the tables, I mean the places coated

in blood. Oh yeah. Well yet major at least one major, major wound that was gushing, oh yeah, and some major win would have been enough to ex saying when I exanguinate him in about a minute, So I mean, that's quick. That's a lot of gush and blood. So that's so I just want to say, is that, you know, when we talk about this is there's literally blood everywhere, and there's like handprints on the wall where you can see

him kind of falling and sliding. And that's why it looks so inconherent, incoherent because there is so much spray going on. Kind of hard to do a real blood spatter analysis there. Really, it's kind of an embarrassment of riches there. But as I said before, those things also did not happen in that order. He was stabbed, Yes, he did go out to the sidewalk. Yes, we don't know which happened first, although I have an idea myself

personally know. But but let's just say for the sake of saying that we don't know a hundred percent for share here. Uh. Time of depth was placed by the medical examiner between two and four am. But some neighbors heard a ruck us about two thirty eight am, which included I think a door slamming and somebody running down some stairs and a body falling over. There was I think there was one or two door slams. It happened, yeah, yeah, and a and so there was a big thud, and

that was around two thirty eight. Uh. And so that's what I'm guessing, the everything that started happening, that's what I'm guessing. He died. Yeah. And then the next morning, one of whose neighbors came out to get his paper already saw there was blood on the stoop outside the apartment building. And this apartment building you can find its at four six to Linden Street, San Francisco. On street view. You can see it. It's a modest, little wooden building.

It's got like four apartments, yeah, four, it's got it's got a porch on it with like what four or five steps up from the sidewalk. There's two two separate uh, stone entrances. But yes, yeah, and then there's and then there's like three doorways, three doors in there and in the front of it, and so like a shared kind of porch thing there. And uh yeah, so I assumed that's where the blood all was. It was it was, it was on the concrete and the sidewalk to I believe.

So the stuff that is on the sidewalk looks like it is splattered over. Most of the blood is on the first is on the landing, and then the first and the second step. He doesn't really go down beyond that. Yes, I disagree with that, but that's the way look at least in the photos I saw. But there's I mean, there's blood all over. It just looks like drops to me on the sidewalk. But there's a couple of the steps. I'm When I say not on the sidewalk, I mean

not on actual street level sidewalk. There is. Yeah, there's drips there. Okay, there there were drips there. Just there's like a couple of drips and then like a couple more drips and then the stairs. Then yeah, Okay, So I I had this this report here from Michael Faranc

because that his name is pronounced. He's a forensic frantic for forensic pathologists who a couple of years after the murder, about a year and a half, I guess reviewed reviewed all the evidence, including all the crime scene photos of blood spatter evidence, and he said, quote, the bloodshed evidence begins on the front doorsteps and sidewalk. So that was unquote. That's so. So, yeah, there was some I don't think there was a lot on the sidewalk, but there was

there was some blood spatter on the sidewalk. Now it's not and and uh, I probably made a bigger deal than it should have been. That's all right, that that gives us more time. Yeah, So anyway, Yeah, we were with back to the neighbor. He came out to get his papers, saw the blood, he calls the cops. The cops get there at eight twenty am. Uh, they immediately deduce that something had happened, and they put up some yellow tape. And so yeah, then that's about the best

thing they did in this case so far. Yeah, they haven't distinguished themselves terribly, of course. But so let's talk about his wounds. Yeah, let's talk about the wounds. So there were three of them. You guys probably know, and I guess it's it's hard to say. I've always assumed that it was like it was a straight thrust to the abdomen and then a downwards stabbed to the chest, and then another downward stab at the base of the

neck on the left side, in the front. So basically it was sort of into where the neck joins the abdomen, just above your collar bone kind of and kind of behind the collar bone, and that was and I've always assumed that it started with the you know, down and then up and then the dra was in the neck, But I guess that's not entirely cast in stone. I mean, it could have been in any order. You know. The description that I saw that made the most sense was

that it did it was his stomach was first. He would automatically bend over, at which point somebody could stab forward again and cut him in the chest, and then stabbed forward again and hit him in the neck while he's bent over from the waist, because you know, your automatic reaction when something hits you in your gut is to grab your gut and bend over. So that's why I presumed. After I read that, I was like, oh, yeah, that makes the most sense as to what order these

could have happened in that makes sense. Yeah. Another another thing I thought is that is that maybe somebody stabbed directly and then and then shifted the knife in their hand and it stabbed downward. See that seemed awkward to me. Yeah and so but but anyway, however they did it, they managed to stick in really good. And that last one Devon's making stabbing milk. This is one of those

stories where there's gonna be a lot of gesticulation happening. Sorry, I was just thinking, like you could do like down, down and then like like back around, like standing what they do in the movie standing in front of you and then down and then like turn around and like, but that would require him to not move what you just demonstrated, what you just described. Think it like stabs

over and then stab stab stab. That's good aim, not necessarily if it's a double edged knife and the guy bends over and you just you just gave them too quick punches forward, you're just gonna hit him where you hit him, and one of them is a lucky shot. I guess I'm willing to say it's like it's like a quick stab to the gut and all he's going down. You like catch him in the chest, and then you catch him in the next as he's That's what I'm saying. I see, Okay, Yeah, I'm just gonna keep stabbing with

this one. Beaut from our listener, Dylan, Thanks than the problem sit farther away. Actually, I think she's holdier for self defense. It's got a pointy end on it. Established she filed it down to a shirt to panted this stuff on it, to this little bar, this little bottle. Okay, but so so so okay, so there, so there. So there are a couple of different ways these wounds could have happened. It could have I liked the idea, and I tend to think that the neck wound happened last

because that was the gusher. I think that if that had been the first one, then there would have been more blood on the ground where the stabbing occurred or wherever it occurred, and then there would that we would have probably got the set of footprints from the killer. There were no footprints from anybody other than well, they were the only footprints at the crime. There's another reason

that that could be. But let's keep talking about how so so it could have been stabbed as he was saying one grip one to three gut chest, neck or or or one grip stab and then shift grips, reverse the knife in your hand and a step down. Or or it could have been two people. Okay, could have been two people. Yeah, it could have been Or there's one more theory, right, is that it could have been It could have been a right handed guy stabbing himself

and committing suicide. Yeah, and it's been said, but yeah, I think of the medical examiner in this case that his wounds are not inconsistent with self inflicted wounds. I mean, it's tough, really hard, that would be really painful. Yeah, it's it's kind of especially when you think about committing Harry Kerry. You know, it's like you think of the idea of stabbing in your abdomen and like, you know, pushing up and gutting yourself kind of but reaching up

and stabbing yourself kind of in the neck. That's kind of problematical for me. The whole the whole thing of doing it yourself is really really difficult to me. People have done it, Okay, look at Steve's got the wand okay, so but anyway, that's those are the various series. I mean, you know, so one one attacker, two attackers, no attackers, Okay, that's where we're at here. I think probably one but knife, well the knife. Of course, the knife was never found,

oh of course. Yeah, that's not the big twist of the story, just you know, yeah, yeah, although the police did not that they found some knives in the kitchen that that could have that could conceivably have made those wounds. Well, I mean, realistically, who doesn't have a knife in the kitchen who could have made those wounds? Yeah, I mean, anybody who has a set of knives has knives that

could have made those knives were clean. Yeah, so stabbed himself three times and then put the knives clean the eyes and put them away yeah, wall spurting blood, yeah exactly, and cleaned them sufficiently so that they had no blood evidence on them, right, So that means like bleached them for blood. Yeah, and they found it's not just like a casual scrub down with the with the whatever sponge that he has a little like dish soap on it. Still no, no, right, because that's not going to get

all the blood off of it. You have to like seriously though, I think it's fair to say that the knife was not found at the scene. I would think it's fair to say that that's what that would be fair to say. Yeah. Another twist is the doors were locked from the inside, which is why some people have called this story a locked door mystery, locker room mystery, locker room mystery. I see, I got that wrong. Sorry,

but yeah. And the blood spatter, by the way is unusual according to police, because there is that trail from the sidewalk up the stairs to the apartment door, which would be consistent with it was getting stabbed outside or getting stabbed inside the apartment and then going outside and then coming back inside, which maybe going outside to get rid of the knife. Yeah, yeah, maybe, Okay, I know you're not. I mean, the thing is is you're not. You're not the person who said that. I mean, you

didn't make that. You didn't make that up. I didn't know I didn't make it, which is the thing that is most frustrating about. Uh huh. Yeah. The bloods better evidence does not indicate there was a struggle in the apartment, and because of that, the San Francisco Police Department has ruled the cause of death unknown. They're not willing to come down firmly on one side or the other. Suicide versus homicide. Bloods better indicates does indicate that it was

moving slowly and kind of wandering around the apartment. The bloods better being like if you've been running, say, and I've been in the middle of a fight, then it's the blood droplets are kind of elongated, elliptical, whereas if he's just sort of moving slowly extanding still, they're just round. So he was moving slowly, which would indicate to me that obviously it wasn't probably in a fight. Uh, you think he'd be moving rapidly to get to his phone

and call police or do something. But he was probably in shock and already had lost a lot of blood, probably wasn't thinking too clearly, and he did walk past his cell phone and didn't try to call it on one one, So you know, that kind of supports the suicide theory um along with the fact that there was nobody that we know of that would want to kill him.

On the other hand, though he was in a good mood that night, there are no previous indicators of suicidal behavior, and of course the knife was missing, although we will say yet again as we do every single time we talked about suicide. Just because somebody is in a good mood doesn't mean that they are not suicidal, you know, under underneath it all. But but I agree that it doesn't seem like it's not normal. It's not standard suicide procedure,

which I know there isn't actually that thing. But there are a lot of things that he did that I don't know that they just don't line. They don't They don't make sense to me. But well, we'll talk about the suicide theory a little bit more. And actually, um, I guess, I guess theories are coming up here. So but before we go into those juicy, juicy theories, let's

take a quick break. We run together in the rain to a cold, tiled room, just to find that it's totally empty and deserted, before running back to your vehicle that brought us there. We do this for days and days. Eventually you get frustrated and you just leave me on the seat of your car in the heat and the sun and the cold of night. I watch you put other more important things on top of me. I'm more fragile than you might think. Sure, when I'm new, I

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on your dashboard. And we're back. Hey, I found that sandwich from last week. Then we took last week's break. Yeah, it's sort of fell downage with the cushions to the couch, but yeah it's still there. The cash deserves everything preserves, coent sandwiches, cat litter. Well, that's the area has followed the T two subsets here, there's suicide and the murder. So I can do with suicide. Let's deal with suicide first, because that's the easy. Yeah, yeah, let's let's get that

out of the way. This is a kind of a locked room mystery. So because of that, the police sort of thing that it's possible that's death was a suicide. And again they they've got a lot of grief over this, although tactically speaking, they haven't come down all the way on the side of suicide. They just said that think maybe I thought originally they did say suicide. And then an independent investigation was like reopened, and there was pressure

from the outside. Yeah. The French opened an investigation and they were like, um, no, you can't say this as a suicide. And so the San Francisco police were like, okay, fine, it's it's open open. It was investigated not just by the French, but also I think they asked the lap D to conduct an investigation into it. I think also maybe the Marine County p D kind of shaff to somebody.

There's a lot of outside investigations. Yeah, So basically it's my understanding what happened in San Francisco was like it was suicide obviously, and then like five other organizations said no. If you watch the interview with the woman who makes the declaration of the cause of death, is is what they did. They actually call it suicide. I think they

eventually called it what um unknown or something. It was unknown, It was unknown, but she went to weird lengths to well, you can't you don't have anything to prove it as murder. So I'm saying it's unknown and to me, the most unlikely unknown. It was like, it was really weird. And that's what everybody got so up in arms about was the fact that the SFPD could have just said, well, we said it's unknown, we don't know how, but somebody staked a flag in the ground, and they all rallied

around it. And that's what really blew up in their faces. That kind of is although I know where to go to commit murder now, because they don't even have to work that hard to make it look like suicide. Yeah, but let's see what was he having as for Okay, the front door was dead bolted from the inside. Back

door was locked. I've heard that it wasn't dead bolted. Yeah, I heard it was a push lock, like the handle, Yeah, the kind of you push the button behind you or you know, you twist the lock and pull shut behind you either way, a knob yeah. Yeah. But the thing about it is so that the killer could have exited that way, but that that backdoor just leads to a tiny, enclosed courtyard. I don't know if you looked at the aerials of the building and the surrounding buildings and everything,

I don't remember. There's no way to get from that teeny courtyard to the street, except it looks like you can exit, like through the basement of the apartment building and there's a there's a basement door that comes out on Linden Street. So maybe if you're in that court already have a key, well, I guess you can get out that way. Really, you don't need a key. I mean, you guys have lived in apartments, right, You've lived in apartment communities like this. It's June right in San Francisco.

It's not cold, somebody's doing their laundry. Props the door open. It's propped open. I mean, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that that little basement door could be propped open. It would be a crazy stroke of luck, said murderer. I wouldn't count to have that door propped open, say, in an apartment with locked doors, in a community that has so many homeless wandering around. That's the reason that people have all those loft doors. That's why everything is

that you. Yeah, but we're talking a backdoor from an enclosed courtyard, right. But that's the last the couple of apartments ago that I was in, there was an actually there was an external door that went out the back of the building. But that thing also had an automatic lock. And I always used to make me so mad. I thought, this is so dumb, like nobody here until the day I found a homeless guy back there, and there was like it was an enclosed little area, like literally no

way in. Well, this guy had hopped defense. But I was like, nobody's ever going to do this this fense, I mean it was it looked really enclosed. Yeah, it's not actually surrounded by offenses, surrounded by buildings. Yeah, I'm talking about the external door that had to have the key that you were talking about. No, no no, no, that's what we're talking about, right. The door comes from that

comes from that little that little courtyard. I would think that you don't really need to worry about people wandering it out the street that will get into your basement. But I would worry about people from the other buildings who have egress into that tiny court ar too. Possibly I would keep it mostly locked. I'm sure people left it open at least sometimes, So, I mean, it's it's for me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. But again, that would that would be a crazy stroke of luck

for that person. It really would be. So if somebody did stab him to death inside there, well, and then how do they leave and dead bolton door? Well, it's a lock court group courtyard mystery. Yeah, courtyard. So what but what happened on the knife? Did Did you clean the knife and put it away? That sounds about impossible, And again we have to reinforce that it wasn't just a cursory scrub down that you mean. It would have had to have been an intense cleaning while dushing blood

out of what is almost dear jugular. And it's like, when I've got one minute to live, I know I'm going to spend it cleaning. Yeah. Well, SFPD said the reason he went outside was to dispose of the knife. Well, that's possible. Another another theoria said he's threw the knife

out a window. M but he was in the first floor. Yeah, here's the one thing I was gonna say, brought it up against other buildings now, But okay, but I when I looked at the street view, so I looked, and there's there's a tree there and there's a pot on the ground. I was like, well, they would have searched the pot to see if the knife was in the pot. But what I did notice is that the front face of his building, the one that as you're looking at

it directly directly to the right. It's bumped out about two feet farther into the sidewalk. And it's only a one and a half story building. So theoretically somebody standing on Oogs patio could turn and if they had really good aim, chuck the knife up onto that flat roof

of that building next door. But that, again is just that's such a leap, especially for him to do while bleeding so much and not have you know, I mean, if he's if he's got blood coming out of his neck and he hauls back to throw the knife, I would expect it to be like a rain bird of blood on the side of his house. Interesting blood spatter. And again we and as we were kind of talking about, like these are these are wounds that are going to

bleed out fast, very fast. Yeah. And actually from the Michael Ferrank's analysis that I read a sentence before he talks about the but the blood spatter, and he said that it appears to him that the blood spatter is just one track. In other words, if he'd gone outside disupposed to them, I've gone back inside, then there would have been a track out. It should have been twice

as much blood. Yeah, that would have been two trails of blood, there was only one, which indicates not that he came out and went back in, but instead that he was stabbed outside and then went inside. So maybe he committed suicide outside he's dabbed himself repeatedly with a knife, and then through the knife away, and then one inside dead, bolted the door and expired. Okay, that's yeah, I mean as as I will just say, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's a little silly, it's super dumb.

I don't know, I mean I would I don't know if it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've heard some pretty dumb things, but I would say it's to dumbest things I've ever heard. Well, okay, top fifty maybe, Yeah, I know, so it's not It doesn't really pass the

smell test with me either. I don't know. I mean, you know, theoretically, if he stabbed himself in front of his apartment building, ran inside through the knife, wayne ran inside, and if the police didn't search the immediate area, which you would kind of expect him to do, and they said they did, uh yeah, so it doesn't make any sense. Also, there was no suicide. Note although it's not a requirement, it's not really required. I mean there usually is, but yeah,

it's not required. Well so here's one. Yeah, it's really rare. I think I'm pretty sure it's super rare for somebody who's about to commit suicide to make themselves a meal, particularly one of rice and peas. I don't know if he was a vegan or not or whatever. If it was going to be my last meal, it would be

something better than that. Yeah, and you would probably finish it. So, I mean, I think that's one of the things that I saw while we were doing the research is like a number of people brought up and they said, it's really hard for me to believe it's a suicide because he I mean, he made himself a meal, he ate and then stabbed himself. Like why why, that's a good question. Why why I go surfing a dating site? You know, the whole the whole idea behind surfing dating sites is

there's no future plan that. Yeah, there's no somebody's absolutely no point in wasting that time, you know, if you're going to kill yourself. And of course his family and friends don't like to suicide. Terry by that you guys probably are aware and raised enough of a stink of course that we talked about the French investigation, the lp D investigation, and the French like, uh, they issued like a two thousand page report at that It was like it was massive. It was massive, and they were like

pretty unequivocal that yes, it was murder. Uh. And they did find one interesting piece of evidence that the SFPD somehow missed, I guess was that who's watch was was I guess torn off his wrist and laying under his body when they found it. Yeah, and they found some a set of DNA at it that did not belong to him, which is interesting. Yeah, I don't actually think that's as necessarily damning as a lot of was out at the bar. He was probably you know, you you

have contact with people. And how much DNA was it? Was it just a little spot of it? Was it smeared and sber And that's how they got it, Like I had no idea how how? And that's that's the whole thing is Yeah, I mean you can get DNA from all kinds of place, I guess for me, And the end though, it's the fact that his watch was off of him under his body. It's less. I mean, yes, the DNA is interesting. It should have presented the San Francisco Police Department with a reasonable doubt to not think

that it was suicide. But the fact that it was not even on him anymore, but it was under his body is like, why would that not sign up a red flag for you? Yeah, I could. I can see something like, you know, raising her arm is in a defensive way to ward off blows. And maybe the the watch gets damaged, maybe you get somebody's DNA, but a very at least gets damaged and sort of at least partially torn off, that kind of thing. But but I

I can okay, I'm I can't believe. I'm gonna kind of step up and defend the SFPD a teeny bit here and say that it is just as likely that the watch was broken prior to that, and he had set it down, and in his stumbling flailing through his apartment, he knocked it up because his apartment was in shambles. He knocks it off of something, it falls on the ground, and then he, to make the mystery deeper, intentionally falls

upon it. And that part is it is me being a jerk, But he may literally have knocked it on the ground and then fallen on it and it just happened to be that. Again, they're like, well, obviously these two things were originally together when we don't really know that. It's a good point, is I could I could picture it being like sitting on the edge of the shelf, he's stumbling around, he goes to grab the edge of the shelf and hera to catch himself. Yeah yeah, so,

I mean, who knows. It's really hard that the watch is not doesn't really all. I think we're all in agreement that, you know, the suicide things just suicide thing doesn't really fly. Yeah, so that leaves murder. I don't know, I'd like murder better and suicide murder. Yeah, yeah, it's it's fun stuff. Well, the the indicate, as I think I said, the crime scene evance kind of indicates the stabbing took place outside the environment, and he went inside

to get away from his attacker. And I can't say it's tea he didn't call nine one one, but I don't think it would have made a difference. Frankly, as fast as he was bleeding, oh yeah, yeah, it was. I'm afraid that he didn't have enough time. No, he was doomed, unfortunately, poor guy. But so the question, if it is murder, what was the motivation? Who killed him and why? All of his friends said that who had no enemies who would want to kill him? But obviously

that's not quite true. Right, Well, let's go through some theories about possible motivations. Okay, first off, robbery murder. What do you guys think about that one? So flesh that out for me. What do you let me let me hear what you think robbery murder means for this case. Yeah, somebody goes to rob him and you know, maybe he puts up a little bit of a fight and he

gets stabbed and the attacker runs away. The problem, one of the problems I have with this, of course, is that you know, whoever it was, the robber didn't take his wallet or money or anything. So the robber would have to have camped to his door and knocked on his door at two thirty or two forty in the morning exactly and deciding that I'm going to rob the

person that lives in this house. Yeah, that's the problem with robbery murder is that he wasn't just walking down the street, he was actually inside and they came outside. They don Can you, um, just for the sake of it, can you tell me how it is that we know that he was inside and one outside analysis is yeah, I mean they did you know that he was inside and came outside. We know that the murder happened, or we think the murder probably happened outside, right, But how

do we know that he was inside and came outside. Well, the evidence is apparently because there was food on the countertop and fear that he had made himself a meal. Uh, And also apparently there was evidence said he was on his computer for about maybe half an hour before we get murdered. I'm willing to accept the computer thing, right, But I guess for me there is a big question. And I know I said this to disprove the suicide theory,

but there's no way to know. I mean, yeah, he could have made it, you know, from lunch, or he could made it as a snack before he went to meet for happy hours. Somebody may have said, Huh, this guy is dead. There's food. Touch it is it warm? If it was warm when the cops got there, he would have had to have been murdered very recently because food gets called. Oh wait, no, they didn't come till

eight four years Okay, never mind, I apologize. I also had he also had some of that food in his stomach still undigested if he didn't, like, I don't know if he went on his date and then went home and then went out to meet his buddies, or if he just went straight over to so they don't really give a good time frame of And the food was pretty undigested in his stomach, so he must have been murdered recently after. I think that was the main reason

the computer history is undeniable. Yeah, again, I'm willing to accept that. But the food one has always been like, I don't really understand why they found some of his gullet. Okay, apparently they look okay, well, they look at the inners. Well, one would assume they would have also done a comprehensive search of the area for or a knife point. So at this point I'm not willing to assume anything. Yeah, so, I don't know, call me crazy, but but I agree.

I think a random robbery murder is probably not the right now, No, probably not one. This maybe the tiny bit more likely is that he came outside. Maybe he heard something interrupted a crime in progress said they heard several commotions. Yeah, so maybe heard the same first initial commotion and that's what drew him outside. Yeah maybe maybe so. Did he have a motorcycle or a car or anything. He did have a motorcycle, Yeah, And I don't know where he had it parked on the street presumably. I

don't know where he would have put it. I mean, I guess you had it on the sidewalk in front of us. Apart, well, you can in cities, even in Portland, you can rent you know, spots and parking lots and stuff like that for a long term for storage if you don't want to park it on the street. Street parking it is just so out of control and so difficult in that city that that's why a lot of people, you know, render a spot, you know, downtown or wherever

where they keep their vehicle. But with the motorcycle is usually easier. I guess that's why I was asking those because it sounded like that, you know, he could totally could have been somebody messing with his motorcycle and he came down and was like, what are you doing? And yeah, and then ran away. And at that point, you don't steal the motorcycle because you get stuck with the motorcycle.

Motorcycle because if you look at the security camera. One of the things that I watched was the time progression of the security camera. And there's a big old car sitting across the street. But there's no motorcycle there that I ever saw. It could be close down. Maybe that big old car belong to I don't think that. And for just for my own sake, you didn't smoke or anything, right, He wasn't impossible that he went out for a cigarette,

you know. I don't know. It's a good point. I think I've seen pictures of him with a cigret his hand for some reason. I want to say that, but I can't. I'm not positive about it. I can't remember. But I mean a lot of pictures that There's a website that his friends have out in the way and you can see it. We'll post a link to it. Actually, there's a ton of pictures of him. Unfortunately, some of the pictures he's wearing a speedo. Just be warned, or

unfortunately for some of us. Yeah, but yeah, so you might be smoking a cigy one of those other corps. You know, you go boozing with your friends. That doesn't mean you're a regular smoke I don't know, but yeah, that's possibly you just went outside to smoke a cigarette or something like that, and you know, and just ran into the wrong psycho boy out there and got stabbed. Yeah, it's good. And it's also the possibility of random murder.

But that's kind of that kind of right is right there with he interrupted a crime kind of the same thing, went outside and somebody was in a bad mood. I guess I have a sharp knife. One thing that you I don't see on this list is um gang murder. San Francisco is pretty hotbed, especially in two thousand and seven. There's a lot of gang activity there. Um, and I know that there are some gangs where their initiation as you go stab someone, and so it's smaller. Is that

the urban legend? No, I think it's true ur legends, the one where they drive around with their headlights. I've heard this and I've never I've never seen anything that definitively said, yeah, we have reports of this and we've confirmed this is actually it and it's not just an urban legends. And that's why I'm asking because I've always presumed, based on something I can't remember, that that was total crap. Oh, I've never heard that it was crap. I've always thought

it was true. But I mean, so it's not on it's not impossible impossible. It's not impossible that it was a technically a random act of violence, but connected random selection, a murder of you know, a gang related murder or some kind. I'll go for that. Um. Again, it doesn't

explain necessarily why he was outside, So that's the tricky part. Yeah, I mean, somebody lured him outside or just be like again, he went outside to smoke a cigarette or for some reason or another and then see, yeah, so I was that. You know, there's always an where somebody rings your doorbell and you come out there's a paper bag on fire. Just an innocent paper bag, an innocent paper bag. You're not innocent, don't Okay, we're gonna rule out the paper bag.

They didn't find any of that stuff on the porch. Another possibility is mistaken identify. I like this one. Yeah, I mean not, I like a real theory, but I do like it. Well, yeah, maybe somebody saw him or and thought he was this man. You guys know this man. Hopefully you all know who this man is, right, you dream of this man? Exactly? Do you ever dream this man? Yes, exactly.

You do a google on it, just this in and you'll see a picture and then go look at that the drawing of this man, and look at the pictures of Oog and do you see a resemblance. There's some resemblance. There's probably some resemblance between this man and me. Well that's I'm not to like jump ahead or burst the bubble or whatever, but that's the point of this man.

Uh and he I mean it was a it was a composite sketch created by a psychology sociologist as a psychic sociology psychological test or experiment or something like that. I mean, that's a whole like point of this man. We've since found out, but early days of this man, I mean, I was totally wrapped up in the whole idea of he's creepy. It's kind of creepy. I can see super creepy. If somebody saw and I'd say, you've seen,

you've been reading about this man. You see you So even though you might think the resemblance is not totally exact. They do bear. Besides just the incredibly bushy eyebrows they bear, they do have a few other features in who had I mean similar faith shape. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely kind of similar kind of hairline. I mean, I could totally see where somebody, oh my god, it's this man in real life. Oh my god, I must kill him. He's been haunting my dreams and I'm gonna get it. And

he's been haunting everyone's dreams, not just mine. Everyone is doing Society of Favor. Yeah, it's yeah, exactly, and seriously, I mean, and we all know it was basically a hoax, but you know, I mean yeah, I mean, I don't know that it was actually actually out there by two thousand seven. Two thousand and six was when it was

two thousand six, so supposedly when it really started. When it started, so it's it's conceivable somebody saw who thought, oh my god, it's this mandle of two thousand seven when dies, So it's had plenty of time to spread around the internet. Yeah, and so this guy is like, oh my god, I've never dreamed of this man. Now

I've just seen him in real life. Now, now he's going to be in my dreams, and God knows what he's gonna be doing to kill him, or I've dreamed of him a lot, and or maybe there's that too. I think the whole idea that all these people were dreaming of this guy was was the Hox part. I don't think anybody really was. I never dreamed of. I mean, this man is a kind of a mystery enigma in and of itself. It's not really unsolved anymore. But we could do an entire episode on it, so I won't

delve too far into it. But that would be as it would, yeah, except for it solved. But I mean it's not unheard of that people kill. I mean, there was that murder the two girls who killed that other girl because Slenderman told them to. Yeah, you know, I mean, mental illness is a thing, and when you get wrapped up in certain internet memes, I mean it's not. There are a lot of problems with this theory, certainly, but for some reason, I believe it more than I believe suicide.

Which I know it's crazy, but I believe it more than I believe suicide at this point. So I don't know, So let's go. Yeah, so we'll sort of give that a maybe. Let's see what other theories do we have. He was murdered by a psycho check that he met online. I mean, it's possible as possible some Glenn close type woman, maybe attraction yet maybe the one that he had met

earlier that that evening. It could have been one that he met earlier, a month earlier, who had been tracking him and it finally decided that to show her love, she had to stab him or felt scorned because she thought they had something special and more and then caught him out. I caught him out. It was nesting stab stabs because to her they were in a relationship. To him, it was really nice that one time, and thank you very much. I gotta go. Yeah, that happens, huh, it does?

It does. Matter of fact. The only the only downside of the psycho check thing is the whole statu I think about stabbing somebody is it's not easy? Well, I mean, you gotta push the knife in and then you gotta pull it back out again. It's not easy. It's as easy as it looks at the movies. Now, okay, let me ask you a question, because I didn't ever see this in the reading Okay, do we know generally what they think the size and the length of this knife was? Okay,

I never, I never. I'm sure that the mmy is probably medical examiner probably was able to come up with a good estimate. Okay, But if we think about this, let's just say your average steak knife, not serrated, but just a steak knife that's a relatively thin and narrow blade and that's not too hard versus you know, the big kitchen knife. You have this like two inches long

at the back and about a foot long. That would I could see being difficult to getting it in and then it wedging against body parts and bones and being harder to pull it right, I mean, your body collapses on in and sucks that thing in, right. And that's why I was asking if it was Originally I was wondering about it is. Do we know if it was a single or a double sided blade? Because if it's, if it's sharp on both sides, that makes it much easier because you can literally cut it back out as

you pull. Yeah. And sorry, look on your face and you didn't like I did not like that. I don't know why I didn't like that. I just didn't. Yeah, I don't know, but it maybe it wasn't a huge knife because it did go into as long. But I'm trying to trying to measure with my fingers here the distance thing my collar bone and my long it's not I guess it's not that far. It could have been maybe a six inch. Yeah, that's a big knife. It's not a small knife either. It's not like a pairing knife.

It's not a steake knife, right, I mean, that's like a kitchen knife. At least. My stake nifere about six inches long. Yeah, that depends on the steake knife too. Not a flimsy stea knife, I hope, because that wouldn't survive even probably the first or second stabbing. But yeah, but I mean I have steake knives. They are stout enough to stab people three times, no doubt. If you watched them in Bleach. No I will, I mean, but

it's necessary, I will do that. But so that's why that's the only downside of the whole psycho check is just I don't I think it takes more strength. But there our women out there, especially if you're a psycho. You know, as we all know from the movies, psychos are super strong. It comes with yea, yeah, exactly. It just seems to super strength. The doctor looks at you and says your psycho and also your psycho strength. Yeah, you're superhero. Sorry, by the way, for all those psycho

chick listeners, I apologize in advance. Please no kill I that was actually that was actually Steve's idea. Yea. So there's one more theory. I like this one murdered by a jealous boyfriend your husband. This has a lot of it, really, does you know, Because let's face it, I mean he was like as as his friend said, he didn't care they had a boyfriend or a husband. He didn't care.

And really that that takes care of the whole problem was with upper body strength and pulling the knife out and everything like that some of the problem, some of the problem. Actually, well not every guy is super strong, let's face it. And yes, I'm thinking that's the best motivation.

Say that that that's the person that has the motive. Yeah, I mean it's a more common motive than being a psycho and going bersik and having a glend close kind of thing where you obsessed with somebody, but also like more than like random, right, it's more more likely than random. The only problem I have with this is that it like a normal dude who flies off the handle and gets mad and goes stab somebody to death and then never talks about it ever again and lives a totally

normal life. Like that is insane. That's crazy. You don't know that that happened. He might have Actually, he might have actually gone off and gotten sown in jail for that's true. I mean, I guess he could have. Yeah, but you know, and this is one of the reasons criminals get caught is they're stupid and they talk. But maybe this guy was actually smart enough to just keep his freaking mouth shut and never say a word about

it to anybody. There are a lot of unsolved crimes because there are a lot of perpetrators who do that. They do it and they tell nobody. Smart Yeah, alternately, right, I mean, there is the possibility he's got angry issues, right, I mean, clearly has some angry issues, gets tossed in jail for assault, and then, you know, a couple of years later, gets released because guess what, assault ain't murder. So I mean, you know, and he realizes, oh, yeah,

I should probably not tell anyone about that smart move. Yeah. I don't know, but yeah, it's just Yeah. To me, it's it's just more common. I think it's a it's a better motive to me, because I mean, psych people are nuts enough to just stab somebody because they're obsessive. They're not nearly as common as people who are willing to stab somebody because they had sex with their wife. Yeah. I mean that's you know, that's a good motive from murder. There's there's been a lot of killing over that. I

mean it's a frequent one. I don't know that it's a good one. Frequent, that's what I mean. I don't mean good is in it's a more motivating, it's just a lot more common. Yeah. So what do we got here? So, okay, we got suicide, We've got he thought he was this man. We've got the jealous husband. I'm gonna go with jealous husband. What do you guys? Yeah, I mean, just for the sake of because I like it. I like that it's this man, this man. But I think I think probably

jealous husband or boyfriend is the most likely. Does I to a degree? I kind of like the idea of the interrupted crime because that would also explain, because that the neighbor says there were two or three loud bangs. So if there's a crime going on or something's happening outside, that to me is what would draw him out. Because he's got a peep hole on the door, and if there was some angry guy banging on the door and screaming, and I go to the peephole and I'm like, huh,

that's a really angry dude. I'm not opening the door. You know, my be that you actually carried the murder weapon to this, to the murder scene. He might have having seen this guy out there, and I said, well, I can't avoid this, but I'm gonna grab a knife just in case. I think that that's a pretty to avoid. You wait for the guy to bang on your door for five minutes, and then you call the cops. You could do that too, you know, like he didn't go with,

you wouldn't have had to go out there. But I feel like he might have been curious enough to see what was going on and made the interruption. There are definitely those personality types though, that are like, oh yeah, okay, bring it true, I got this knife in my hand, you're on my property. I'm going to call the cops on you. Bring it, shut up, get out of here. Yeah, I slept with your wife. What oh oops, you have that knife and you're stabbing me. This was a bad

idea according to playing right. I mean that for me to get in that mindset is not so hard. I can see how he could have talked to himself up into that. I agree it was dumb, but yeah, I'm sure he regretted it. We didn't have longer regretted, So that's the that's the silverlining of that. Yeah, but he might have actually taken he might have actually gone out there with an eye to confront this totally, except that I don't know that we know that any knives were

missing that anybody knows that. But then again that's hard to track down. Nobody knows how many knives are in my house never mind. Yeah, I don't know either. You lose n eyes from sets and and actually you can buy a nize individually too, like you know, so yeah, we have a lot in my house. Yeah. Hey, well, okay, another mysteries solved. And sorry Chippy, we left you out again. We'll work you in next time, I promise. But time for a little housekeeping here. You probably want to know

if we have a website, while we do have a website. Finally, it's called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. If you want to contact us to tell us how much you love us whatever, we have one of those email things too. It's called Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And of course you can find us besides a website. You can find stuff out there, like our episodes which you can listen to, uh, and what else we've got that new list also of all our episode list makes it

easy to find past episodes. Uh. And also we're on iTunes, among other places where you can subscribe. You can download our stuff. You can rate us, review us proferably a good review at a high rating. We'd like those a lot better. And go upload a lot of five star reviews too. We like that too, yea, yeah, definitely do that. Uh. Streaming we are everywhere also Google Play besides everywhere you can stream us. Google Play not included in everywhere. Yeah,

exactly what else? Social media? We are on the Facebook where we have a group in a page. So joined the group and what else they want to do? Oh? Yeah, I like the page, okay, and then just you you know, like like sort of you can sort of lyric and read stuff or you can post stuff or whatever, you know, have conversations and and stuff like that. Uh, and us

how much you love us? Yeah. We're also on Twitter where we are thinking sideways, not thinking but thinking no g and we have a subreddit thinking sideways and what else merchandise you want to know, working by cool merch Uh. So we're on Zazzle and red Bubble where we have what shirts, mugs, stickers for those on the website. Yeah, I think we've got a night light, you know, but you probably will find the shirts and mugs when we're useful. And that's about it, I think. Yeah, yeah, anything else,

that's all I got. Yeah, alright, yeah, and obviously if you are, if you're a goose killer, you know, I know a way to make a hunter grand Just let me know and I will split it with you. Okay, all right til next week, guys, step Snap Snap