Thinking Sideways: Death of Col. Philip Shue

So you can adopt from a shelter, or you can volunteer your time, or you can donate money because they always need more money to take care of all the pets that are looking for their wonderful forever homes. So donate, spend time, adopt, find my neighbors. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host, Joe, joined as always by Steve and Devin. Yeah, and of course, yeah,

another mystery. Okay, another week, another mystery. Alright, So this week we've got a really intriguing story for you guys. I know it sounds like he's sarcastic, but it's true. This is actually an interesting story. It actually it's kind of an interesting story. I'm actually glad that you've covered this one, Joe, because I have read up on this multiple times and have been so baffled. I wasn't ready

to dig into it. So I'm glad you picked it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I finally and I got into it, and I was convinced of kind of leaning towards one thing, and I started started leading towards another thing, you know, but by the time I was done looking at it, you know, it's kind of interesting when it happens. Yeah. Oh, a quick warning with this, this story does depict some torture

and unpleasant things like that. So again, if you have little leers see a doctor, if you've got a kid around, then you might want to like turn it off till the kids not here anymore. But so you probably want to know what the mystery is. That's and they'll come up right after this break, Okay, just can What we're gonna talk about is a strange death of Colonel Philip Shoe, who was in the Air Force and stationed at Laughlan Air Force Base in Texas. This happened in two thousand three.

He died in the car crash, and the circumstances of the crash were a little strange. I would say, uh if at first it looked like a straight up traffic accident, but when the police took a closer look at his body, they found evidence that he had been tortured, like and not just in the distant past, but like that day. Yeah, but none. Despite all that, that's kind of hanky if you ask me, his death was still ruled a suicide by the Air Force, also by the local police. Yeah,

also very hanky. But there are people out there, naturally, including his widow and his friends, who think that he was murdered maybe, And in fact, one judge in Texas this is a sort of pursuing it to a lawsuit, did declare that Philip Sho's death was a homicide, although apparently that had no legal bearing. Apparently the judge still it was just that was his opinion. But yeah, but as far as the police and the Air Force are concerned, it's still suicide. But was it? Who knows? Well, we'll

find that out. Yeah, Well, we always solve our mysteries. First off, let me stop and give a shout out to Mr w I know who you are. Mr W. It's either George W. Bush or it's Harvey Weinstein. I'm not sure which, but that's the first thing who suggested this. Mr W as the person who suggested this story. So thanks. Alright, start from the beginning. Colonel Philip Shoe was fifty four years old. He was a psychiatrist at Lackland as I said in Texas. He was married to Tracy Shoe, who

we had met in the Air Force. She was his second wife. She was also in the Air Force. Yeah, yeah, she had She had just recently retired. She was had retired and was then was a slacker. But so Philip Shoe divorced his first wife, Nancy Shoe in They had one son together, and as part of that divorce agreement, Nancy was allowed to keep an insurance policy on Philip for a million bucks. Wait, hang on, I think we just misspoke. Nancy was not in the service. It's a

second Tracy. Yeah, that's what I said, his second wife, Tracy. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I suddenly misconstrued what was going I was like, what did we just say that? Wrong? And so, to be clear, that insurance policy was taken out in ninety two when they divorced initially correct or thereabouts or to the divorce. I am not entirely shure. I thought it was prior to that she was allowed

to keep it and maintain. Yeah, to be clear, Um, you know, I guess the thing that I was trying to clarify was this insurance policy was taken out either before their divorce or you know, around the time of their divorce, not like five years later or nine or eleven years later, lawyer during the divorce, So she basically got whatever she wanted, and somehow in the proceeding that insurance policy was part of it. Yeah, I I and I assume it's it's not totally illegitimate. I mean, he's

probably paying shout out support. They had a son together. Probably, Well, if you get killed, we got to even make sure that the gets a college education and all that stuff. You know, it makes sense to me, especially you know in the Air Force. If there's a probability of he was an active duty in terms of combat active duty, that can change. Yeah, not with his line of his

life work was a psychiatrist, but you never know. Even there gets a psycho guy that's a patient and he kills you or you know, I mean there's there's are You're just sitting in your office being all psychiatry and stuff, and suddenly something in fifty and just overshoots the runway and plows right to your office, you know, I mean, there's danger anyway, That's all. I was trying to take the psychiatrist's office at the end of the runway, yeah, yeah,

or really any office. Yeah, anyway, I was just trying to be clear that that had happened, like, you know, earlier than it wasn't like oh yeah, and then two months later he died mster. Yeah no, And I'm not sure it could have actually been an ongoing thing. It might have been that he'd been insured for like years prior to the divorce too. I'm not really totally sure.

There's no information about that out there, frankly, and there's a lot of information about this case, so if you want to go looking for it, y yeah, but yeah,

that particularly, Yeah, there is. But the insurance policy did become a little bit a little bit of an issue later on, which I see, Yeah, surprised, But anyway, Philip should have been in the Air Force for a while and as you all know, in the military, at least in the US, you get to retire after twenty years and you get to have a pension, which is kind of sweet. You know, you can retire pretty young and have a nice pension. My neighbors are one of them

is I think thirty seven, it's not true, thirty seven. No, she's forty and he's forty seven, and they're both retired Navy or something like that, and it's just like that. Oh yeah, my dad retired from the military at forty five and then went in the private sector and makes great money because he's got that pension that's coming in on top of his regular income. Yeah, it's a great deal. Yeah, it's a good deal. Yeah. But anyway, but so he

was planning on retiring on October two thousand three. Uh, and he had been accepted into a program to study forensic psychiatry and Alabama, and so his plan was to finish out that program, going to private practice, make lots of money, uh, the pension, and also have his pension and Tracy's pension. She retired of a pretty decent peture herself. Uh. So they had just put down an offer on a nice house in Birmingham, Alabama, which was accepted. I was

about a week before his death. And I've seen pictures of the house and it's really nice, big, huge, two story brick house, nicer than mine, believe it was six or seven six they were paying for and I mean for two people. Frankly, it was a lot of house. It was a huge freaking house. But they were going to be making seventy hundred bucks a month and plus whatever we're gonna come to two of them from whatever job. It wasn't sport. I just didn't be hurting for money.

Oh no, no, definitely not. It just seemed like a really big house for two people. People. Yeah. But long in the short though, is that, at least according to Tracy, everything was going great for her and Phil. He said that Phil was happy about life, really looking forward to retirement and his new his new psychiatry practice and and all that stuff. And uh, and so you know, he wasn't depressed or suicidal or anything like that, he gordon to her. But then things went south. April sixty, two

thousand three. Uh, Philip and Tracy were living in the town of Bernie, Texas, and that's spelled b O E r n E at first I thought it was Born like the Born Supremacy thing. Yeah, but it's like it's Bernie like the Sanders. Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's Bernie. Uh that's of course. Phil worked at Lackland Um. By the way, Yeah, by the way, Bernie is about twenty five miles northwest of San Antonio, Okay, and it's close to the Air Force base. Yeah yeah, kind of clothes

um to commute. Yeah. So Philip left the house about an hour early that day, around five thirty am, because he said he wanted to get to the office early to get some paperwork done. And that was the last time Tracy saw him alive at eight fourteen. Just a few hours later that same morning, Phil's carr was seen in Highway ten, which is a freeway that runs through Bernie. It comes from San Antonio up northwest through Burnie and then i'll beyond into the desert and well beyond. And

so let me describe ten. First, Highway ten when it goes through Bernie, is is two lanes in east direction, and there's a big huge grass Meradian in between the lanes the north and the south. Yeah yeah, yeah, and there's there's at least like a hundred feet wide strip of grass feet in between the north and southbound lanes. So Phil was seeing going north northbound at mile Market five forty three, which would be southeast burning and he was headed northwest. And then two guys whose names I've

never been able to establish. Uh, these guys appeared on CBS forty eight hours did a special on this one, and these two guys appeared in there or either that they were actors impersonating you guys. I'm not sure, whish, but they didn't name them they were. They didn't say who they were. I mean, I which I thought was strange conspiracy. Yeah, well could be, I mean maybe, So to clarify, I'm sorry. That would have been the way he would have been heading northwest to get to work. No,

he would have been heading the other way to get southwest. Yeah, he would have been heading southeast to southeaster or whatever. Yeah, he would have been heading that direction to to go back to his home and Bernie. I'm not not sure which which exit. There are three freeway exits to get to Bernie, so he would have taken one of those to get home, and not sure, but I just wanted to be sure to mention he was heading in the wrong direction. He was not yet, he was no longer

heading to work. That is a good point. In fact, well, in fact, he never was seen at work that day, right, And do they know do we know what time he was seen at that mile marker was when it was age fourteen? Yeah, okay, so a couple of hours later. Yeah, So he's driving north on Highway ten and these two guys see him. He's in the right lane, and then suddenly he swears from the right lane across left, across the freeway to the median into the grass, starts bouncing

along in there and driving wildly through it. There's light poles in there, and so he was like swallowing between a few of these light poles and stuff. And then eventually it hits uh, some object that's unclear what it was. That that actually cost him to get a little bit airborne bump or something. Yeah. Yeah, And and so he got kind of airborne, came down, um, came back down, but kept it under control, got back on the freeway, kept driving north on the north on the right side

of the road. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly. He just saw this is very abnormal. It along he looks over there says hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well apparently it was unusual enough even protextas that it attracted these guys. Notice they kept following him. He was going about sixty and he went about five four miles north past the John's Road exit which you can find on on the aerial if you look for it, and that's mile Market five

thirty nine. But he continued to pass that mile Market that was the last exit to Bernie which would take him home. Um, and then continue to pass the underpass which is St. John's Road, and then there's there's an entrance from St. John's Road northbound there. So just at the at the end of that, it kind of cross that and left the freeway to the right one across some grass onto another road. There's a parallel road there called frontage Road. They're always called frontage they are, they

really are. And across that road, headed across a little more grass and hit a standard trees. His right front bumper of his car clipped a tree, and then his car spun clockwise around the passenger side, Yeah, the passenger side, So that corner just clips of tree and becomes and that and the car just spins quite rapidly around and smashed into another tree and the tree at the driver's side door and really caved it in good. I mean the car is really bent. About the Saudi pictures of it,

it's bent pretty good. He literally did wrap it around a tree. Uh. And he died on the spot from massive head injuries. And of course the police showed up, because, as we all know, cops are morbidly fascinated by car erect right, That's why I'm pretty sure, Hey, freddie correct, let's go man. Yeah. So they show up and when they're done taking selfie's and posting him on Facebook and stuff, they started looking at the wreck, and they looked at his body, and obviously they had to see if he

was alive. He was obviously dead actually, and the two anonymous guys that followed had stopped, and that's what one of them says. So, yeah, we went up to see if he needed any help, and we just looked at him and taking, oh, no, he's dead. Yeah, even the

non experts agreed he's dead. But they started looking at him more closely that I was part of his left ear had been cut off, not like torn off in an accident, but cut off the last joint of his left picky finger had also been cut off, and it seemed kind of unlikely he've gotten those entries from the wreck. And by the way, those pieces of them were not found at the crash scene, not found in the car, weirdly enough. And then they looked at it, says clothes.

His shirt was torn, partially unbuttoned. The T shirt underneath, you know, this had been slipped, so he had it's military uniforms. Who he's got a button up shirt with then a always the tan T shirt underneath. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and the T and the tan T shirt had been cut basically from the neck almost to the waist. It was I'm trying to remember in the pictures, is it

is it? The collar is still intact, So it's not as if the shirt is completely cut from the neck to the down to the waistline, right, It's it was only a portion of it. Yeah, but it's still still enough to allow entrey for Oh yeah, yeah, no, I just I'm trying to make sure that we get it across. And it's not as if somebody cut it from the top all the way down and it was open. Yeah. No, But but so there's his long, inexplicable cut. The T shirt's got some blood. All that's the lower part of it.

And so his head is bleeding, but it's not really blood from his head is blood from other wounds on his body, not a result of the car wrec. Well, I was gonna say, I was that six inch long cut? Yeah, he had a long cut down the middle of his chest that was not from the car wrec. It had been made with a knife or a scalpel or something. Uh. It was six inches long about an inch wide. And when I saw it, I thought, while somebody had made the cut and then and then the two sides had

just separated. But according to the autopsy, and they said, now it's the skin had actually been removed. So and my wait, I hate to dive into these kind of details early on, but I need to understand this because it's it's been bothering me this whole time. Am I to understand? When I read the autopsy it said that I didn't get it and I thought about it later.

Does that mean somebody actually made two incisions and they were at say a forty five degree angle, and where they met that come completely freed that strip of skin to be an inch wide, it would I see what you're saying. Yeah, no, I think that it looks like if you look at the end of it's like two parallel cuts and then they come together at the ends.

So yeah, what I think happened is that the cuts were made and then it was like the center that there was they sort of were tapered together, and then that little piece was just peeled down. That's what I think. Yeah, yeah, I like my answer better. But okay, yeah, well that's that's one of the most ancient nasty torture techniques out there. Playing somebody alive. You've heard that. There's a reason it's effective.

Oh yeah, it's nasty. Also like super illegal. Oh yeah, like any I mean, you know, yeah, it doesn't mean it doesn't still happen, does but hopefully but less it's less common. What's which is progress? Right? Okay until we go tour go one to yeah, yeah, and let's see what else. Oh yeah, one more more more little detail. His nipples have been cut off. That was That was a little bit. I'm sorry again, we gotta go a little bit into this and you may not know the answer.

Was it like a scalpel cut around or was it like a pension slice. It was more like a scalpel cut around and it was super super shallow. They barely took the skin underneath the areola down away. It just kind of dished out. It wasn't as if they took a like a quarter inch or half. Didn't just pulling yeah, no, no pulling lopa. I was sure it was still kind of good. Oh yeah yeah yeah. And see what else?

Also and another interesting detail. His wrists and his ankles had duct tape on them, like wrapped around them, as if he had been maybe a bound hand and foot. Um, And there are pieces of the tape hanging off about three before inches long, like they like maybe he had like broken the tape or like he had been cut for a year kind of torn it. I mean, you

can tear duct tape pretty easily cross ways. I just wondering, like if you were bound you know, hand or foot, Yeah, if he just like pulled them apart, or no you can't. I'm not strong enough. Maybe I'm not. Here's the distinction we need to make. I know exactly. Devon just did

the wrist together motion. His wrists weren't taped together. It was one wrist was taped, and then the other wrist was taped, and then somehow they appear to have been attached to each other with possibly that extra three or four inches of taped it or taped to some other objects. Yeah, because yeah, I think it looked more to me like because the tape in both both rist was wrapped around the wrist and there was one end hanging off, So it looked more to me like maybe he had been

tied to a chair. Yeah. And so the same with his ankles too, you know. So it's not like they put his wrist together and wrapped him his ankles together, yeah yeah, or his ankles yeah, yeah, the same thing. Neither risk no ankles. Yeah, but that was I think that's also an important distinction. Yeah. And so, um, but he did have this duct tape on him, so that's interesting.

It looked like somebody had tied him up and tortured him. Okay, as you can imagine, there was an autopsy Yeah, yeah, I believe it or not that revealed that Philip Shoe had latto cane in his system. Latto cane is isn't It's an anesthetic. Um. Usually it's like if you have to get stitches or something like that. They'll inject a little into the skin around the wound, you know, maybe and nom it that kind of thing. I don't know

if they use latto cane for dental work or not. No, but if you've ever had um like a yes, that kind of stuff, that's exactly what they use it for. Or they just don't. Well they do. But I think unless you've got you know, igor the torture for a doctor, and that's your own fault for choosing that provider. I should have been tipped off when his name was It's true, Yeah, I like these. Okay, sorry, So he had light cane in his system. Oh yeah, no drugs or alcohol and

no no illicit drugs there. There was some better drill. But you know, he probably had allergies, nothing to suspicious in April, particularly in April. Yeah, yeah, that's the light of cane. The corner concluded in his report that it came from a topical Lydakan cream that she had prescribed for himself a week or two before the accident. Being a psychiatrist, he had access to write prescriptions. Psychiatrists, I mean they're essentially as you know, as good as medical doctors,

you know, yeah. In fact, you've got to go to medical school to because our psychiatrists, you know. So, Yeah, did anyone know why he prescribed the let of cane cream to himself? No, that's a good question, but I don't know. Maybe it just to get high. Probably, I don't think that's how that works. But okay, it's my favorite line in the show. That's not how it works, how any of this works. Yeah, some other miscellaneous items. Shoes, wallet was missing, I want to say shoes. Shoes were missing,

but these shoes were on him, damn it. Yeah. But he did have forty seven bucks in cash in one pocket, uh, and half in change and a bucket half in change also in the other pocket, and one of them and he was wearing his fatigue pants, so they had cargo pockets. There was a small flashlight probably like a little led light, and his b d us. Yeah. Uh. In the car there there there was found one straight razor, two pocket knives, one late text disposable glove unused, and an open package

of small gauge needles in the glove box. Yeah. So just I just thought it throw that. So it's a random assortment of things. I mean, you would do you've you went into my car, there would be a hodgepodge of stuff. It's probably a couple of pocket knives in my car. At least, there's no straight razors that I didn't remember. Yeah, it's the straight razor in the late

text clove. Though. I understand he worked with medical equipment, so I get why he could have had three pairs of late tex gloves in my that's because you abduct people, Yeah, but it's not. But it's actually not that unusual. I know, I know Pete people who carry a pair of LATEX gloves in their car just in case there's a wreck and they need to do this your first aid, you know, post HIV and hepatitis C and everything like that. A lot more people are a little squeamish about coming into

contact with blood. That weird to have a set of gloves in your car that, yeah, No, seriously, have three pairs in my clutch purse that you've seen me carrying around. I have three pairs of I have a full first aid kid in there. I also have a bunch of gloves in my car, but I don't have any straight razors or unopened hypodermic needles. Bring that purse with you to the next dress event that we have to go to, and then will be at the table with people. How

are you doing? Oh great? And then you just open up your purse to start pulling out I brought him to the meet up. Well, I'm like, you should have done that. A crime card been perfect. I can next time. Yea. Some of you may have noticed the doors are locked because you put the gloves on, but no, I mean I do it because first aid. I mean, I know, you guys know I'm certified, So I feel like I would like to protect myself if I were to, you know, have to save a life. Absolutely's not a bad idea.

But yeah, I mean, you know, there's yeah, there's like random stuff rattling around people's cars, but the straight razor and the needles are a little weird. Well even the needles. Again, he had he was you know, he was a doctor presumably, but so and yeah, what happened, that's a good question. The local corner looked at the autopsy reports and looked at the other evidence, and it concluded that she was death was a suicide, even though it looked from all

appearances like she would been abducted and tortured. Uh, that you've been tied up in tortured. It looked like he had somehow escaped, driven north trying to get away from his tortures. That's the way a lot of people see this particular story. Yeah, frankly, that's kind of what it looks like. Yeah, you think, but notetheless, he declared it a suicide, and he based this on a few some evidence. Okay, first of all, the the six inch long cut in

his chest. Uh, there were about a half a dozen I think five shallow scratch marks next to that cut. Were those at the top of the bottom? Do you remember? I think they were on the side of it? Well, no, I mean like, were they near the top of the incision or near the bottom? I think I think they're the topent sure on that, And so in his mind, those appear to be hesitation marks what you're found on typically found on people who say cut their risks committing suicide.

And that's you know, people sometimes you know, can't write commit at first, and eventually they make up their minds to do it. And yeah, yeah, I mean hurting yourself, there's you're going to have some hesitation no matter what I would think. So yeah. The corner also noted that she would be getting psychiatric treatment for depression and anxiety, which of course increased the risk for suicide. Yeah, that's the word. Would I say that? But yeah, it kind

of does. Yeah, well, I mean suffering from depression anxiety increases your risk of suicide. Not the seeking of treatment for those things. Oh well, yeah, that's what I sorry, that's what I mean. It's like seeking treatment is probably

a good idea, probably. Yeah, well, what else he knows he noticed that shoe when he was driving north on the freeway, drove past three Access to Bernie, which is, uh, if he was actually fleeing from from his tortures, that's what you would kind of expect him to do to home, head home, or head to the police station something. I would say, police station maybe, but home, not necessarily home.

You don't want to lead well somebody home. Yeah, they probably know where you live already, and yeah, but they don't. You want to just get off and scream around the city until you drive past a cop, you know? And yeah, yeah, well yeah he kind of was asked him to be pulled over cop. Yeah, I know he did on the on the freeway. Uh, what else uh. And and then he wove through the light poles as I mentioned earlier, and that was interpreted by the authorities as suicidal hesitation.

So he's thinking, yeah, I'm gonna ply to that plot one of that big light post right there, and then it all but then it loses his nerve swerves, you know, and so after a few tries, he says, screw it, let's go back on the freeway, look for look for something better. We'll talk about and and so yeah, that I'm not so sure, but that's that's how that was

interpreted his hesitation. He also noted Shoe had a working cell phone in his car, and then he could have called if he'd been tortured and if he was being chased. And then lastly he noted that there was light, a cane and shoes bloodstream, which, as we said, it's an anesthetic. And why would somebody was torturing him, Why would they give him light a cane to lesson? Why would they give somebody a painkiller if they want to torture him.

So they concluded that his injuries had been self inflicted. Yeah, so why would somebody do this? I mean, it's kind of in the same way to kill yourself. Why would you cut up here? It's extreme, there's there's a lot involved in all this self mutilation, and then you hut yourself. Why And well, the thinking was that maybe she wanted to make his suicide look like a murder and like he was abducted and tortured, managed to escape and then died fleeing in his car. And then well, why would

he want to do that? Well, because his ex wife, Nancy had a life insurance Paul to see on him for a million bucks. So maybe staging a suicide to look like a homicide would keep her from collecting on the policy. And it did cause Nancy a few headaches, by the way, although in the end she did collect on the policy. The policy didn't have that suicide writer that we talked about all the time. No, actually, apparently

a lot of them don't. It's just I think they're there's some sort of adelia where there's a waiting period, like like you can't buy an insurance policy and kill yourself a month later. Yeah, yeah, so it's like, I don't know, six months or a year waiting period. Okay. The silly thing about this is of course that Nancy's not the only one that has an insurance policy on him. That's true. So yeah, I mean this this is a

little wonky, but let's keep going. You know, we got we got more ground to cover with a little bit. Uh So that was the coroner's reasoning, and the and the ruling was officially suicide. Obviously, the suicide ruling didn't set to out of Phil's widow, Tracy and and all

their friends. For one thing, they didn't think he was suicidal. Also, Tracy pointed out that he would receive several threatening letters since the late nineteen nineties, and and letters that basically said your access plotting to kill you for the life insurance. And so you know, obviously that looked to her like evidence that at least that somebody was looking to kill him. I mean, a million dollars is a lot of money,

it is. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm planning to kill you guys for your million dollar policies, but I'm just very good at forging. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we've got that recorded on the records. Oh you know what, it's not turned on nah. Oh see. There was another another weird incident that happened in June, somebody stole Philip shoes laptop. He was actually working at his master's thesis and at the university library. I want to I want

to go to the bathroom. When it came back, his laptop had been stolen, but the thief gave it back to him. Several weeks later. He left it sitting on the hood of his car in burning It was parked in Burnie and they came back and there's this there's this laptop and had a threatening note on that said not to report it to the police because if he did that quote others will die unquote. So he didn't report to the police. Oh yeah, and by the way,

the hard drive on the computer had been wiped. Was it his personal Yeah, laptop, not one that he might have used for work that would have had files on personally. He didn't have to report it to the Air Force. I have a question about this note. Yeah. Was it a physical note or was it a note on the computer? I do not know that because if it's a note on the computer, that makes no sense. A lot some places have made it out as if it was a

note left written in a file in the computer. But it's hardened, you know, what I'm saying, like, my understanding is that it was a physical note. And and but the reason you're probably thinking that is because they only found out about this after he died, because he had written some sort of an entry on it in his journal or whatever on his computer diary exactly. So he he actually he actually wrote something on and there was in some sort of file and his computer he wrote

about this. It was stolen the important he reported it to the university police. It came back with this note. He didn't report it to the police, which is strange when you think about it, because, I mean, this is evidence that somebody has kind of stocking him, don't you think. I mean, if the guy stole his computer, wiped the hard drive, why would somebody do that? And somebody knew where he was, where his car was parked, and left

us sitting on his on his hood. So that's evidence to me that's some some creeper is following me and knows more about me than he probably should. But also, yeah, I was gonna say, but also it means that that creeper probably is following you. And if you believe it's a credible threat, that they are willing to hurt people that are important to you, don't They will literally know if you go to the police. Maybe I would probably find some sneaky way to get to to find to

get into contact with the police. And I think it can be done if you created SMS text message yeah probably. Yeah. You can't text the police now, yeah, most not all. Lots of police stations. Yeah, we just talked about municipalities and their different levels of technological contradict I know the Portlands Police you can actually text and if you're a criminal, by the way, you can also text sel piece of yourself committing crimes police, so feel free to do that.

It's perfect. That never happened. I mean, I love it when there's some story about some guy like takes a picture of himself and his homely stealing something and post

on Facebook. Yeah look at me, dog. Did you see the one recently where a guy a kid was like, um, they issued a warrant for his arrest or something, and he said, oh, if this post gets a thousand likes, I'll turn myself in And it got like a way more than that, so many so we showed up at the police station with donuts and was like, all right, here I am. Then I turned myself in here. Well, anyway, you gotta get the guy credit. He was a man of his word and donuts yeah and dout. Yeah. That's

that's yeah. Well back to our story though, Tracy Shoe after this verdict wanted she wanted a big crusade, and there was that forty eight hours episode that I talked about was a big part of it was about her big crusade to vindicate her husband. Clear his name. And Tracy is the widow, Nancy is the X y X. You know, they're all like super like whitebread names. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Anyway, she goes on a crusade.

As I said, she sued Nancy the ex also sued the usa A, the insurance company, the life insurance company. She lost the lawsuit, but the presiding judge, as I mentioned earlier, did officially offer his opinion that Phil's death was a homicide and not a suicide. But she still got paid out the bush. Nancy got the box and also Tracy, yes, she actually she got She got more money than any but she had a much bigger life insurance policy. I think hers was like one eight million.

Oh my gosh, pretty pretty decentle to pay. I would hate to think of what the premiums would be for that. I do not know. Of course it was. It was to USA. They were in the military, so USA does it all of it for the military. Yeah, that's probably was much more affordable, which is why it was so inflated. Probably so cheap that they just thought, why not bump it up to one point eight million? I mean that's another two bucks a month? Yeah, I mean really, why not?

What else? Tracy hired a third party for another autopsy. Who was It was a consultant named Cyril Wecht, Cyril and maybe Cyril, I don't know. I think it's Cyril. Now he's a he's a forensic pathologist. He's kind of one of these well known celebrity pathologist types. He's written some books, done other high high profile cases including, uh, the GfK assassination, Elvis Presley, John By Ramsey and the

list that it was on and on. Probably seen him on TV at some point, And here's a fun little factor. Maybe maybe don't know. He's the guy who discovered that GfK's brain had gone missing. He's also got a blistering tongue and he really suffers no fool. Some of the things that I've I've read that he's written. She's like, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He's the He's a version of all of the things that he

says about the person. I want you to know, that's the nice version of me saying things like that too. I know you do, yeah, listeners, you know, yeah, you know. Well, anyway back to back to syr or Cyril. So he's in.

He appears in that forty eight hours episode, and he noticed if you odd things about the death the number one the latter can and shoes system, he said, was not at a level that would make it an effective pain killer, which he felt kind of undercut the corners, reasoning on that point that you know, it would have

lessened the pain enough to make the torture ineffective. Also, the LT of cane could not have come from that topical treatment that the corner assumed it came from, because that treatment also contains prilocane, which was not found in shoes blood. Therefore, the light of cane had to have come from somewhere else. Interesting, But what I found no injection point for the drug. He noted also that no needle or hypodermic was found an on shoe or in

the car. No bottle of Lyda cane was found there, No cutting instrument capable of excizing those nipples was found or making that cut in his chest, because there were there were. I mean, maybe the straight razor could have done it, but no blood was found on the straight razors.

I was going to actually say, is that he did admit when we're talking about there's no injection points, he did admit that there was actually three prime locations that could have been ejected and then masked by the later mutilation, which is the left nipple, the right nipple, and the strip of skin down his his chest. Absolutely, so it could have been injected there and then you know the

actual excision. And absolutely absolutely, And since that's that's kind of where the cutting happened, it wouldn't be surprising at all if that's where the injections took place. Yeah, you go to the dentists and they inject the side of your mouth that they're working on, not the other side. For a reason, it's exactly local. Okay, I just know, yeah, yeah, And so I don't know what happens if you injected in your blood stream. If you go numb all over,

what the hell happens. I've never seen just your blood stream goes numb. That would be funny. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Your little red blood cells don't know what to do. Yeah, okay. But so they didn't find anything that could have caused the injuries. They did not find Yeah, they found it. At least one of the knives was like a Swiss army knife, which they determined was not remotely sharp enough to have done even brand new from the factory. Swiss

Army knives aren't sharp enough to cut anything. I've got a couple of those things. I like them just fine, but they've they've always been kind of dull. I've never been able to get a good edge on one of those. They tell the worst stories. That's why they're so dull. Yeah, I'm not boring, but they're so reliable and they make

good watches. But here's a really key point also that Wexed made, which is at the duct tape that was on shoes, wrists, and ankles did not have his fingerprints on him, which he said you would expect if he had taped himself up, if he was faking his abduction, right, and no gloves were found in the car except for that one that was unused, But no gloves were found and uh, and so that lack of fingerprints is an important point for a lot of people who do think

that Shoe died as a result of foul play. It was, it was. It was very suspicious enough to the Dr Wecht that he thought he'd mentioned it, you know, of course, as I mentioned, one glove was found, right, Okay. Also the local sheriff, he was interviewed on forty eight hours he was also he had some misgivings about the whole thing. Um. He said, it was not not investigated the way it should have been. He said. The state police just came in, took over the accident scene and refused to treat it

as a crime scene. They they really never even considered the possibility of foul play, he said, And so some key evidence might have been lost they just according to him. Yeah, and then the Air Force started an investigation which produced what it was what was called a psychological autopsy of Philip Shoe. These are always weirdly interesting, Yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah, they're kind of like the Myers Briggs tests. But like

even more like level. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's that sort of thing where you're like, I don't need to know about myself, and then you start reading and you're like five pages and all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, this is so true. How is this so true? So true? It's so scary. I'm a serial killer. But this this report was actually pretty comprehensive. It's long. I've read it and Steve, you read it, right? Yeah? Did you read it? Devon? Some of it? Okay, it

was easy to skim through. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. The chalk full of good facts. If you're researching this case. Wow, it's a lot of a lot of good stuff in there. It was released in May two thousand five, two years after he died, and it drew by the testimony of a lot of people, including his doctor, a psychiatrists, family and friends, the autopsy reports, etcetera. And the conclusion of

that psychological autopsy was suicide. Surprised their investigation would come up with the same thing that they said it was. I know, I know, but there's still but still, the circumstances surrounding his death work on a sketchy There is at least one person who had a really good motive to murder him, and who, by the way, he took

the fifth when she was interrogated about his death. And of course there were the threatening notes, the weird incident with the laptop um and he himself had expressed some some really big fears about his life, like, for example, he told the psychiatrist that he had started taking all he had started altering his route that he was taken to and from work daily exactly as you will. Yeah,

I'll take that as you will. Yeah. He also said he'd gotten a PO box because excuse me, a post office box because he didn't want to use his mailbox at home because he was afraid somebody might booby trap it. And so he started to use a little paranoid maybe a little bit, or maybe he really has something to be worried about, yea. So maybe it wasn't murdered paranoia. Whether it's correct or not, it's still paranoia. Actually, there's nothing negative about being paranoid, if you're right. I think

just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me. Absolutely, and so maybe somebody was anyway, but suspicions about it, it's continues to be talked about to this day and people and it's not just on Reddit. Yeah, yeah, I see some articles in some major media outlets besides forty eight hours talking about this very one and a lot of people are still convinced that he was murdered. That's our question for today. It's an interesting question. Yeah, but

before we answer that question, let's take a break. The tie clip is the most versatile of accessories. Unlike it's slowly cousin the binder clip. Not only can it prevent one's tie from blowing around in the wind, but it also keeps it out of the puddles of blood when kneeling over corpses. When times get tough, it can be used to close your nasal passages, blocking out the smells of the docks. During a stakeout, and in moments of desperation. It works as a small and unassuming weapon during hand

to hand combat. Why am I telling you this, Well, because you're about to undertake some real detective work. Try your hand with dispatch and interactive mystery story that really delivers. Each month you'll receive a box of clues to decipher. And I've got to say these snippets are more richly detailed than a plain old case file. It'll keep you busy for days. There's news clippings, journal entries, secret websites.

It's totally immersive, and as the story develops a month over month, you'll be able to take part unraveling clues and crime solving along detectives. It's perfect for lovers of mystery crime stories and games, which all you weirdos are, so you can bring the experience home. You already love listening to a good crime story, Now become part of one. Take off on your first delivery with the code sideways and find special deals just for our listeners at breakout

Dispatch dot com slash sideways. That's off with the code sideways at breakout Dispatch dot com slash sideways, and we're back Murder Aside. You'll be the judge Murder, Murder, murder, all right? So what are the theories that are out there? There are several first and everybody's favorite, it seems like for this one is murderer. Well it's I mean those are kind of like kind of kind of suspicious. Agree, yeah a little bit. I want you guys to know that if I show up like this, please treat it

like a murderer. Okay, okay, now we planned to. We're going to investigate anything that happens to we promise, great, thank you. Yeah, she's been planting clues like this for weeks. Yeah, I really want to know what the hell she's got up. Well, I decided that's what. That's why every day I go to my A t M and take out like twenty bucks, but do it like twenty times because I think it's well,

this is the day that I disappear. You know, you want to you want to those a TM It took out like you know, yeah, four dollars, but it didn't twenty buck intments and nobody knows why. Yeah we know why. Yeah, now crazy damn. Okay, so murder So somebody the series goes somebody abducted Colonel Shoe, tortured him and probably intended to murder him, but he managed to free himself somehow and get away, jumped his car, sped north on Highway ten, maybe thinking that he was being followed, which is not

an outrageous thing to think. Yeah, hard to say what his intentions were other than to get away as fast as possible. Of his mind was perhaps a bit clatter from pain, maybe blood loss, maybe the ladder cane, that's hard to say. Maybe the benadrul apparently he had a

lot in his system. Yeah, I mean that would also kind of support this whole murder theory, if like he'd gotten dosed with a bunch of benadryl to to make him more pliable, or maybe just O d M and you know, I don't know take Yeah, well, apparently he'd taken a bunch, but but you know, so he might have been a little bit out of it, but he did manage to keep the car in a control. Uh tell, he actually the freeway and hit those trees at least.

And so this would make it homicide in the sense that he would not have been in that situation if not for the actions of these other people who obviously did not intend him. You know. Well, but the question is is who were those other people? Well, there are two main suspects out there. The butler, yeah, Mrs White. The colonel. Wait wait, he's the colonel now the lead

pipe with the colonel. Okay, Um, so our first suspect would be Philip Shoe's ex wife, Nancy Shoe a k a. Nancy Timpson because she remarried to a guy named Don Timpson, and she did have a good motive to kill him, which is why so many people thought that Nancy had

done it, or maybe and still think that she did it. Uh. You know, there was that life insurance policy, and I don't know how she felt about him, and there was a divorce, of course, I don't think it was a totally amicable one, so maybe there was, maybe there was another motive there. Just bit I really got the feeling that they were your typical divorces with a kid stuck in the middle. You know, they did not seem to get along. Yeah, but it's you know, it doesn't necessarily

mean that she wanted to kill him. I know lots of people who were divorced and don't want to murder anybody. But and of course, the the insurance policy, of course, does not prove that she killed him or hired somebody to kill him. You know, lots of us have motives to kill people. Doesn't mean we actually do it or

make us guilty of that yet, Yeah, not so far. Yeah, but there're although there are those letters, and the only one I've actually seen is a is a typewritten one which says, and here I'm paraphrasing, I overheard your ex wife Nancy and her husband Don talking and they were saying that they wanted you dead for your insurance money. F Y, I be careful, signed upper end that that

letter is really poorly written. Yeah. It was obviously either written on a true typewriter or some kind of word processor that did not have spell check, because there was some pretty egregious errors in there. Yeah, it was probably typewritten, because let's let's not forget he worked for the military. You know, you probably in two thousands, so you probably wouldn't have found too many typewriters in civilian life. But

I bet the military still had him. I was going to say, like a library, yeah, you know, because like you know, he was at a library when the computer was turned to him, right, a campus library. Uh, well, that when it was taken from him. Yeah. I'm not saying that he that he typed that either. I mean it said somebody sent him this letter that was typewritten.

I just would think. And by the way, and by the way, his I think his x or her husband were actually in the military, but station in Florida because the Florida Yeah, and so right about the time that he received this letter, I think that made him think about this whole insurance things. So he asked Nancy to cancel the insurance policy. She wouldn't. Uh. He wanted the insurance company USA and asked them to cancel it, and

they refused. He even presented the notes and everything, said, Hey, I've been getting these these these nasty letters and stuff that are kind of scaring me and I don't want to have I don't want her having a motive to kill me. And they just said, dude, there's nothing we can said. You got these notes, but so what they don't prove a thing. She owns the policies, you know, it's up to her to keep him or get rid

of them and not. And so that was that. As far as the letters, I don't know if any of the envelopes they came in were kept or tossed out. I'd never seen the evidence that they were kept. Uh. Yeah, and pretty much all when we were a similar nature. I think there were four of them at all, but he kept the letters. But he kept the letters, and who knows, maybe you kept at least four of the letters. Yeah, that's gotten more that we don't know, I asked, true,

I only know about the four. Yeah, I would maybe toss the first one. That's entirely possible. You would yeah, okay, sure, and then you get another one you're like oh, and you get like four more and you're like oh, except it was over the course of years that they arrived. Yeah, but I would still I mean, you know, the second one, would maybe think okay more Yeah, yeah, I would probably start a file. I'll keep him there. Yeah. But so she continued to try to get the policy canceled, but

he was never successful in that. But it was kind of not it was a micro crusade or something. I mean, there wasn't like it was an obsession exactly, but he was sort of working on it. Uh. And then when Nancy was interrogated about about Philip's death, she pleaded the fifth. If you watch that forty eight Hours episode, you'll see her on video doing it. Two of the questions were, quote, were you responsible for Philip shoes death? Unquote? She took

the fifth. Next question, quote did you discuss with your husband Don Timpson murdering Philip Shoe for insurance money? Unquote? She took the fifth. Forty eight Hours she took the fifth twenty times. We have seen more than one occasion where somebody has done that because their lawyers said, you say anything, they're gonna have a field day and they're gonna try and incriminate you. So don't give them a

single thing. One of our one of our mods talks about this and something related where, um, we talk a lot about how suspicious it is, that's so and so got a lawyer right in a case if you were,

if you weren't guilty, you wouldn't get a lawyer. But one of the Facebook moths talks about this a lot where they're like, if anybody within like a twenty mile radius of me gets murdered, and I, like even have a passing knowledge of this human, like I'm probably going to just contact my lawyer and be like, hey, heads up, this is how I knew this human just in case, you know, like you technically like lawyering up. You're yeah,

I think, but also I do think it's suspicious. Oh yeah it is, it doesn't fifth, instead of saying no, well yeah, that's the thing is that if she wasn't involved, why not just answer honestly saying I don't know anything about this, but I also don't know what her lawyer was thinking. And of course, truthfully, I mean some of those ques like like did you discuss with your husband murdering him for insurance money? I mean they might discuss that,

probably not seriously. At some point you get drunk one night and you're sitting and you're saying, God, you know, short on money, and and Phil has got this million dollar insurance We should kill him, you know, honest? Right, even we we have on recording me saying ha ha, I'm going to murder you guys for hear insurance money. You don't. I don't even have insurance policies on you.

And yet if someone were like, uh, you know, twenty years down the road, if I did have insurance policies on you, and someone were like, have you ever done that? I would have to say, uh, probably I would have to say the fifth, right, because you don't want to say, like, yes, twenty years before I ever had an insurance policy on them. I joked on a podcast once, right, I mean what happens on the podcast is real, it's recorded history. I don't know what you mean this is. I mean, this

is what we're doing. We're recording our history until the Internet goes away. This is not going to be too long from now. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I understand pleading the fifth to that, but I don't totally understand pleading the fifth. Two were you responsible for his death? Well? Yeah, and uh, you know, I mean, so it doesn't make sense to me. It's not so much that saying, wow, I think she's guilty that I'm just saying it doesn't quite make sense. But again, if her lawyer just told her, hey,

here's what you say. Nothing, just say the fifth and so okay and all. And also Nancy I was asked if she would take a polygraph test and she wouldn't do that. Either, She's guilty, are useless? Yeah, I mean, but still you know it. But you can see why Nancy is is a lot of people's favorite suspect. You can see that. Um. But as far as I know, as I said, I think, as far as I know, Nancy and her husband Don were in Florida when Philip Shoe died. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't hire

somebody to bump him off. But as far as I know, there's no evidence that she actually had anything to do with Colonel shoes death doesn't mean she didn't do it, and like I said, a lot of people think she did. But let's put her on hold for a minute when we talk about another suspect. Please, okay, click do do do do. I'll back to your regular scheduled program. All right, here we are. So our next suspect is Tracy Shoe, Yes,

the the breaved widow. Uh. As one commenter noted, if Nancy had a million reasons to murder Philip Shoe, Tracy actually had twice as many and one point eight ties as many. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, And actually, well, in some ways Tracy would be a better candidate. Never once she wasn't in Florida. She was, she wasn't burning. Uh. The timeline for She's death, when you think about it,

doesn't quite add up. I mean, so it leaves the house about five thirty, next spot at eight fourteen, So it's two hours and forty four minutes in which to do the following things. You've got to intercept Philip Shoe in his car, get him out of it, taken to a nice private place where he could be taped to a chair, tortured for a while. And I've seen all those things, cutting off his finger, his ear, the slit

in the chest, the nipples, all of a sudden. It probably took a little while because when you torture people, you don't just like bing bing bing bing bang. You want to stop and talk like in the movies and drag it out, and they experience if you do it fast, then it's all the pain at once, which is not the point. Yeah, it's little bits at a time. Yeah.

So they got through this whole torture session session. Uh. And then at some point, of course, they take a break and leave him alone long in our frame to free himself from Yeah, they did something breakfast. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like these people who never saw a movie, right, yeah, right, so where they really saw a movie? Yeah, And it's so somehow he escapes. So added a few minutes at least for shoot to get from wherever he was in

captivity to where he was spotted on Highway ten. Uh. That's a lot of stuff to get done in a few hours, as you know, especially the part about leaving him alone long enough to escape, because remember when you leave the guy alone long est to escape, he's got a struggle for a little bit, there's no little drama there, okay, And so that's a problem for me with the whole

Nancy did it scenario, but at least for me. But at the same time, you gotta also remember that he left his house a lot earlier than usual, like an hour earlier, which would you think would have screwed up the kidnappers plans if they know he always leaves a house at six thirty am for the office, they wouldn't they theoretically probably would have shown up a little bit

before he's supposed to leave, but not earlier. Yeah. But but when you think about it, if Tracy had done the deed, she wouldn't have been constrained by time, since she could have lied about when he actually left the house. And by the way, she would have known that he was leaving an hour early. Uh. And of course, by the way, I mean, she could have just for that matter of correformed him in his sleep or Bena drilled him, or Benna drilled him, or tied him up or duct

taped him or something. So the hired guys that you know, the hitman that you've hired, they come and get him. They take him away for a little torture and murder session, right, uh, and so it wouldn't have been necessary in that case to intercept him in his car somehow. Remember it changes the timeline from two hours and forty four minutes too. Yeah, yeah, actually she would have had any time between between you know,

late the night before and fourteen the next day. This also makes it not necessary to intercept him in his car, which, by the way, it's not as easy as you think, because remember he was altering his route to work every day, and so you got not just intercept him, but remember he's a little paranoid, so coaxing him out of his car, you know, would be kind of difficult, But that's again

not necessary if Tracy is involved. Right, So that makes in a in a sense that makes Tracy a better suspect and also adds um you that one of the things we're not like really talking about so much is that you have to intercept his car and then have his car go to the location that he then escapes from where. So, like, if Tracy did it, it's totally plausible that her DNA and fingerprints and all that stuff

are found all over his car. Should they do a forensic investigation of his car because that's his wife, right, So if she's involved, she puts him in the car, drives him someplace, drives him out, and then he escapes and he's like, oh what my cars here cool and escapes in that. And then you know, if they were to do a some sort of autopsy or whatever on the car, yeah, you know, she'd be like, that's my husband's car. Of course, my DNA is everywhere, drive it

all the time. Yeah. I could totally see a scenario where the guys don't even come to get him at the house and she's like you said, she just puts him in the in the past, in your seat, and drives him to the torture spot. Right. Well, so here's a you know, he was driving a little four door Sedan, so it was I mean it was yeah, it's such a smaller cars, just a fairly cheap economy kind of car,

but it's a four door. But it would be possible if it was Tracy and Philip and an accomplice, they all three could have ridden in the same car to the torture location. She could have also just been she brings him. I mean, so I one of those things, right that you know, is going to put me on the list or something. Is I googled how much benetual lethal dose? Yeah, how much? Um? And it's uh, I think it's ten point one billigram to I don't know.

There's some like big formula, but basically what it says is that like, if you weigh a hundred and sixty five pounds, seven hundred and fifty seven milligrams have benadro will kill you. Um, So you know it's actually I mean it's a lot, but um, each pill is about twenty five milligrams. So if we can even assume like eight hundred milligrams just for like round, it's only thirty two capsules, which is like it's a lot for you to take willingly, but like, h well, you know, actually

think that much. And he could have been you know, if if she had dosed him, he would have been like sleepy, and she would have been like, okay, Phil, let's go in the well. He gets up, he's taking a shower. She goes, She goes and makes him smoothie and ups a bottle of pills in there. You know. Yeah, it's like, yeah, here's just smoothie here. I always make my own smoothies Oh yeah, I'm letting anybody else make those things for it anyway. Sorry, there was a bit

of a derail on that, but it's fine. Um, there is there's once one website out there, military corruption dot Com. I'm yeah, well they were in there earlier. They've done they've actually done a lot of material about this case, and they're they're totally totally on the side of the murder theory as well as again a lot of other people are too. And seriously, I was I would say that the murder theory is the prevalent theory out there, would you not? I mean you guys. You guys have

done their research on this. Yeah, I'd say it's it's the big theory. In their earlier rights, they totally took Tracy's side in this story. But then there's something they had a change of heart and decided that Tracy was probably the killer after all and not Nancy. Um. And I won't lead you to all their reasoning, but they are totally convinced that Tracy is the perp in this case. And for one thing, they do have some evidence that Tracy and Philips marriage was not as idyllic as Tracy

has made it up. To be well, that's not uncommon in these kind of situations though. Yeah, well Tracy made it out to be like, oh, you know, he was my soul made and but of course the guy is dead. And how many times have we read similar things. It doesn't mean spouses of someone who had died. It's very consistent. Behave you don't say, you don't say bad things, and you don't say it was such a flaming a whole and I'm not gonna miss him, because that's that's just

not what you say. Yeah, but here's something else I will say, is that just because someone is your soul mate doesn't mean that you're there soul mate, right. I mean, like it's possible that she was totally telling the truth and saying like he was my soul mate, and what she's really saying there is and he was trying to leave me, and that happen. I can't have nobody will I mean, well, where were we? No? No, I didn't

mean that at all. Uh, but so it wasn't as idyllic, But it doesn't mean that there's I know a lot of people are in so so marriages. Let's Steve, you just kidding and and Deva. Not yet, but I'm looking forward to it. And here's the thing is that she made such a ruckus over this that behavior doesn't match up. Well, yeah, I know, it would be a little strange, don't you think, because he made a huge buss he went to court and she got she got CBS News, got them the

interviewer to make a big special about it. And you'd think if she had a hand in the killing, she would have just kept her mouth shut, because you know, if she had actually done the due it was like sweet, they declared suicide, they issued to report she could collecting, and then just walked away. But yeah, so that's why

I don't buy Tracy as to kill her. I also I agree with that, I mean, like overall, but I just want to go ahead and add to this that like we don't know it was necessarily going behind the scenes, going on behind the scenes of this where like you don't know what her friends were saying to her, right, you don't know what people were pushing her to do, and she might have felt obligated to do if she were.

I mean, again, are you are you equating to to this the same situation as it was that movie Gone Girl? Did you guys see that with who Benn? And I'm not gonna screw it. It's been long enough, it doesn't matter. The spoiler alert, Um, he hates his wife and he wants to leave her, and then she quote unquote disappears, and then when she comes back, he's figured out that she staged the entire thing, but he is now forced to stay with her because he's, you know, all of

the social pressure. That's not what I'm saying. I'm more saying that, like, you know, you could she could have had the group of friends that are like, it's super left up what Nancy is doing, Like obviously Nancy had him killed. Why aren't you more upset about this? And she was like craving out looks suspicious that I'm not. She might have actually, she might have actually felt safe about that. You know. It's like, you know, well they didn't.

I mean, obviously they didn't collect evidence from the car or anything, right, So well, yeah, some I mean, I I don't. I don't think they just like pulled his body out and towed it away. I mean, but by the time that she seemed to be raising the rockets, she kind of knew what evidence was out there probably so she could have known like, oh, yeah, there's nothing

to it. The only yeah, the only thing she had to worry about was if one of her, one of her accomplices talked, that would be that would be the major worry there. And of course she probably had already bumped them off right there and there in a shallow graves somewhere out in the desert. She could have had no accomplice. That was well, it could it could be as she did it all herself. Yeah, that's a good point. But but also as far as the whole just murder

in general, I've got some issues with it. For one thing, there were no defensive wo wounds on his arms or his body, like, for example, sometime when he was captured or escaped. You know there should have been a struggle. Maybe not, I mean if he was drugged for example, but still you would think there'd be some sort of signs of a struggle from what he was captured. You'd see signs around them, like the tape on his wrist, and it wouldn't you like extra bruising and stuff or

stretch the material stretches stretched itself. Yeah, it does stretch. Yeah, And the yeah, from the photographs. It does not look

like it's been strained at all. Really, although you know, one thing that I kept thinking about for this, for the murder scenario is the autopsy talks about the hesitation marks, and I kept thinking about the fact that if his shirt had been cut open, his undershirt, it could have been from somebody trying to to reach over and get him with the knife and and screwing with him and then eventually cutting it open and making the the excision where and of course then it just happens to line up.

It's like, oh, that's weird, there's several of these in a row, when in fact it's our sadistic murdering fiend torturing him even more. And it's misinterpreted. Could have been that could have been acul im like, hey, how about it cut you right here? It's just a little more yea, yeah, yeah, I I know. Uh. You know what else we talked about it Besides you you noticed the duct tape had not been strained nout. But you can also see this in and we talked about this already. It wasn't the

way it was wound around his wrists and ankles. They were individually wrapped and everything again individually wrapped exactly, but not like that. Again, like he'd been maybe maybe strapped to a chair, but not his not his arms and legs strapped together or anything. So that's a little odd. The absence of finger prints, this is a real telling

point for me. The absence on the duct tape of fingerprints from him was noted by Dr Cyril Wecht, famous celebrity pathologists, uh and a lot of others, a teenage evidence that he did not stage his abduction and torture because you know, his fingerprints not being on there there should have been on there. But in my opinion, this

is a misreading of the evidence. Yeah, because to me, the absence of fingerprints indicates that he did stage is abduction because if he had been educted an escape and his fingerprints should have been on the duct tape, his fingerprints should have been there from the escape from what from when he from when he tore the tape and did the tape whatever he did to escape, Right, I was going to say, I can see a situation where he doesn't if if one arm, let's say, just one

arm gets free, I don't care which one it is, and he reached and he can't easy. You know, if if their tape behind his back in some fashion, he would have to get some sort of tool or implement I don't know what it is. Let's just say there's a big knife sitting there, he reaches behind himself and cuts himself free. He would then use that same tool on his ankles. Rather than taking the time to grab the tape with his hands and begin the process of

slowly tearing it apart. A knife would go through much quicker. I can see where there wouldn't be that, like he would just you know, cut, cut, cut, run. Yeah. I you know, I think that's unlikely though, because I mean I think his captors to know that that's possible. Well yeah, I mean if you got really really stupid people, I mean, you know, hey, not only we st dune, we're gonna leave this guy here tied to the chair, We're gonna leave a big old knife next to him. Yeah. That's

that's let's go get some job. Yeah, I mean, so that's the problem. I don't I don't see any realistic scenario where he does not touch that tape at some point, at least at least a couple of pieces of it.

I just don't see it, um, unless he was wearing rubber gloves and applied it to himself and it never was taped to some other object as you're saying, yeah, I mean yeah, So if he, if he did put it on himself, then it would make sense that he applied to himself using the latex disposable gloves, tossed the gloves at his car window or whatever, and actually left him at the scene when he did all these things. Yeah,

left at wherever he yeah. Yeah, And the actually using gloves to put it on would have been kind of the obvious thing to do, I guess. H But again, if somebody else had done at those fingerprints should have been on there on the tape and they weren't. Yeah, And so I have imagined, though I guess it depends on the kind of glove, not all of them, but it seems like, especially at that time there before there

was the whole latex free glove craze. All of those gloves they have latex on both the inside and the outside, at least some, and so I would imagine that some of that latex powder. What is it? What is the powder? It's not the Yeah, it's that's that that's latex powder, but talcamo, right, but that stuff is all over the inside and the outside, and so you would imagine that there would have been some residue of that on the actual tape itself, no matter who was wearing the gloves.

I well, yeah, but I don't know, I don't know that they tested for that. I'm guessing they must not. I mean especially and actually when you when you dust something for prints, it might be hard at that point to you know, tell the fingerprint dust from the dust from the gloves at that point. So yeah, but uh yeah, so yeah, the duct the duct tape is kind of a conundrum there, What else are we going to talk

about it? There was also the light of Kane. Remember remember if somebody had wanted to torture on the original corners that they wanted to torture, and why would they give him given him anesthesia? Well that's a great point, you know, unless, of course, they just wanted to take his nipples and his pinky for sale in the black market, right yeah, King. Yeah, but if the intent was the torture, then really, truly the light of King does make no sense.

But if the wounds were self inflicted, then it does. And also speaking of self inflicted, I mean, you guys saw the you guys saw the the autopsy report that that described the wounds too, and they're different. They're not. And then when you see this on the web, it's always described as they were removed with surgical precision. They were removed with some skill, but I wouldn't say surgical precision. Yeah, and and and there's a difference between the two of them.

I mean, the right most one had a nice, even very well to find little little border around it where the cut was made. And then the left most one, the border was more irregular and ragging, and it had more dishing, and it had more dishing, it was deeper, which indicates to me, like you know, you've got your strong hand and the one hand is doing what do we know? Do we know what shoe right or left handed?

That I don't know, because I'll be honest with you, if I was, if I were to take my own nipple off, I'm right handed, then probably my left nipple would have the much cleaner cut nipple. That's that's the thing I can't quite figure out is that if he was, because I assumed all the same as you that it was probably was probably left handed, because that I would explain why that the right one was a better cut.

But then again, he chops the last joint of his of his left pinky off, so you would think he would have been if he was left handed, he would have chopped off the right one and not the left right. Yeah, that's what you would think, correct, I know, but I don't know. But but but again, unless you had two different surgeons, or maybe the surgeon was like I had some time it was kind of in a hurry on

the second one or something. Well, okay, so listen. I will also say this that part of my job on an irregular basis requires me to cut circular holes out of paper. And on some of those holes I nail it and it is almost a perfect circle and you can't tell that it wasn't done by some kind of punch. And some of them look like I gave a pair of scissors to a two year old to cut that circle out. Because sometimes my aim is just often once you start, it's not like you can go back and

fix it, because it'll you know, you just gotta keep going. Yeah, in the future, there will be undue scissors. Not yet, I mean, I feel like the regularity actually speaks more towards somebody else doing it, because there could have been a difference in the amount of struggle that was put up. Well, um, so so he holds still for one that kicks up a fuss with the other one, Well he's gotten maybe he's got more drugs in his system for one. Maybe he's more more pain and like losing a lot more

blood for the second one. So he doesn't put us much of a fight up. I mean, like there didn't. They're just start like there's different circumstances that could be. He wasn't bleeding that much from the nipple removal just because it was it was, but we don't know which one happened, Like we don't know what order any of these, but he would not have been losing massive amounts of blood, right, but it could have been like right one or left one.

First right and it's just like kind of mangled and bloody, and then they do the like chest wound and he's like, oh god, and then they moved on to the right one, and by that time he's just like this super hurts. I can't struggle, he's worn down, he's losing blood. I think that's where I think that's where Joe and I. Joe and I have been figuring that the nipple ectomy was done one and then the other, and then at

some point after that the chess cut. Whereas if they literally worked their way from right to left or left or right across his body, that would explain nut But I don't know. To me, it just says self mutilation

could be, but also could be. I mean, it's there's no rhyme when you when you combine that again, you know, if that was the only thing, but combined with all the other things that you know, and especially the fact that lyda cane was used and there were no holes found, which means that the injections had to be done at where the cuts were done. I don't remember seeing this in the autopsy, and I actually don't remember reading this

when I was reading about lyda cane. But taking it orally, it takes quite a while to take effect, and I would imagine that they would have been able to identify that in the stomach contents, wouldn't you. I'm trying to I was trying to think. I don't even if it's available on say, any sort of oral form well, know what I'm it's a liquid. So what my what where I'm going with this is, let's continue to follow this narrative.

Shoe is tortured, captors go for a cappuccino break, Shoe breaks free, looks over and sees the light a cane and says, here's a whole violet light a cane and just downs it as a general painkiller to get into his entire body because he doesn't want to take the time to inject it. But I would think that that would like numb the hell out of your throat and your gut. Not really, it doesn't seem like a really good idea. It's all local, Okay, just just reading m

D here lyda cane's local. But that's yeah. So if it if he had drank it, then it would not have okay, that doesn't I mean, it would enter his blood stream in the same way eventually if he had. You know, if it had been injected to locally anaesthize anytime anywhere that they were like cutting but swallowing, it'll just make your mouth and throw Yeah, yeah, okay, that's what I thought. Okay, yeah, and so and he would

have known that, Yeah, he was a doctor. So yeah, so yeah, especially the latter case indicates self mutilation to me. And of course there is again as you mentioned earlier, he was on when he was on highway, Tanny drove right past a cop car that was pulled over the side, had its lights flashing and everything, and he drove right past it. Um. So that doesn't make you think that if he was wanting help, he would have stood on

the break yah. Yeah, yeah, and he would have you know, or he would have just driven by and go, hey, pig, Yeah, that'll that. Yeah, that'll always get him, always get him to help you. Yeah. And so I got to give the whole murder thing to fail, which kind of exonerates Nancy and Tracy both plus any other unnamed murderers out there. I don't buy the murder theory, which leaves us with a couple of more theories. Uh. So our next series

that it was suicide. Um. And like I said, the initial Corner's verse was suicide, which was presented to a grand jury, which upheld the verdict. And of course there was a psychological autopsy, and uh what the the psychological autopsy noted was that he'd been diagnosed by a psychiatrist, and he'd been seeing a psychiatrist since December when he started having anxiety apparently about these letters and things and

the insurance. But he was diagnosed as having panic order with a goreaphobia, and of course they noted that this kind of anxiety just sort of does race the risk of suicide. And also he had stopped taking at least one of his meds, which was been laughi sine or is that van faccine, was also on con which is very similar. Yeah, he was also on clint asapam, although

that he did have some of that in his system. Uh. In the autopsy, the med his medication history, he he originally began taking just klon aza pam and half a milligram twice a day. In May two thousand two, less than a year before his death, the clan aspam was increased to three times a day and have been laft the vent of vaccine was added, and then by the time of his death that klan aza pam had been doubled again to one milligram three times a day and

and the venta faccine had been quadrupled. Uh. And so that kind of indicates to me that his issues were like maybe worsening well, but these were not the only medications that they had tried. He had been on multiple medications, but every time, it's every medication that he was on. I think that, yeah, everyone that he was on he didn't take anymore because he complained of sexual side effects, which is so common with these things. It is, but

it also he the prescription each time. It sounded, at least according to the psychological optops as if he went to his doctor and his doctor was like, so you're still taking Like, oh no, I I stopped taking that? Well, why because problems in bed because of it? Like he never did it under the direction of his doctor. I wonder if these like increases were not because they were increases in symptoms, but because they like it wasn't working.

And at some point, I think every everybody should do this. Right, if you're on if you're prescribed to medication for something, you need to evaluate for yourself. Am I getting a benefit from this medication and are the side effects worth the benefit that I'm getting? Right? And if so, if he was experiencing increased side effects and perceived to be getting no actual benefits or minimal benefits from this continuing

increase and increase of dosage. I think it makes sense for him to have said I don't want to be on these anymore. You know, whether or not that was the right decision for him. Usually you should probably like include your doctor in that conversation, but we want to talk. That's something that people do. I've definitely done it before where it's like, you know what this You just keep putting me on medication and it's like not actually fixing anything.

So like what I even doing putting all the stuff in my body? Well, it may not be an increase in the symptoms so much as the trying to control the same symptoms because you have to give it time to kind of yeah, but yeah, so it just wasn't working, So keep kicking it up and kicking it up and kicking it up. But then again, he was on fairly high levels of these of these things when he died, and again he stopped taking the vantle of vaccine. The area is a withdrawal when you when you take these drugs.

Apparently some of the other things that they noticed some besides the drugs and then seem stopping taking them, there was a sort of general pattern of strangeness. There was this um, this whole thing about the notes, which nobody was really sure that he that they were real or if he just forged them, and the lack of envelopes

obviously made people a little suspicious. Another thing that they said, and this was written by a psychiatrists and they were the ones who wrote this report said, somebody like Shoe, who was a professional himself in that business, would probably have been able to hide paranoid delusions even from his own psychiatrist. He's so familiar with the behavior and everything.

But I, you know, I I kept looking at the list of medications that this guy was on, and I gotta tell you you too know this because I've told you this story as it was happening. But I have an elderly family member who was on, you know, as an eight year old person on a lot of medications

because that's just the norm. And one of them happened to be a small doze um mood altering medication when and it had surgery and got a whole bunch of new medications at it on top and very quickly just developed a massive anxiety problem to the point that it was so disturbing. I was on the phone with the doctor because I had very quickly, you know, it was so to short span of time, I could very quickly

trace it back. But you could see a guy like this who's on those those medications and they set that panic and that anxiety would slowly build. And then if he's bouncing up and down in dosages or then you know, self terminating a prescription, it still takes a long time.

I mean this family member that once we got the meds change, I think it was like and this is in a very short amount of time, but it was like two weeks or something of a complete medical overhaul or a prescription overhaul for everything to have come out of the system enough that behavior returned to normal or baseline.

So I mean for a guy like this being on that and slowly working, you know, working every day with that kind of stuff, I could see him very easily hiding it and being good at keeping it under his hat and and not letting anybody know what was going on. And it does sound like he had some some issue. I want to clarify when we're talking about the psychiatrists that wrote this report, that's that's psychiatrists who they were

the forensic psychologists. They're psychiatrists after the fact, right, they had never spoken to him. They didn't actually have a personal relationship with him. They spoke to his psychiatrist and

she's doctor and everybody else, but they never interactive. But it wasn't like his psychiatrists said, yeah, he could have been dealing with you know, Okay, I just wanted to clarify because they do feel like, not to take away from what these people do, but I do feel like there's a pretty big distinction of people coming in after the fact and like saying, oh, yeah, this vision obviously shows that this is what this person was suffering from

versus people who are people they're dealing with it. But yeah, now these go. But but I think these guys had the vantage point of knowing things like, for example, that she's psychiatrist didn't know because they took on an entire investigation into this whole thing. Like for example, one thing

that they noted was the laptop incident. They thought was was really kind of telling from their point of view, a psychiatrist because he had he had mentioned to his doctor Dr Jozynski uh that his name was the name was Dr Joseph Chezinski mentioned that had been stolen. He never mentioned that it had been returned, and his wife never found that, never found any I never knew about any of it. Um They thought that that was rather odd.

Number one, that he didn't report it to the police, number one and number two that and he thought that and and they also thought that if he had talked to Dr Chezinski about it, that would have given him kind of an end that would have given some insight into perhaps his personality and his paranoid and kind of

less rational side, which he never got. Apparently Josynski said that he was actually kind of guarded about his about his own personal life, and it was not it was kind of noncommittal essentially, and so he never really got a lot of insights, he said, into his personality and he treated him and so did he have parent delusions? Again,

we don't know. He told Dr Chazynski all about the increased vigilance, taking different routes to get to work and back the po box instead of the mailbox because of the booby trapping, and of course, still with the suicide theory that of course the scratches, the tentative, the hesitation marks or an indicator and not proof, but an indicator. Uh, there is that police carry drove past, which again indicates

they're not murdering torture, but just he wanted to kill himself. Uh. He mostly appeared to have his car to control, because the guys that followed him said that he did. He swerved around and sloughomed a little bit between the light pools monster truck rally for a minute, but then back on the freeway, back on the freeway and and stayed on it. His brake lights never came on, and so that indicates that he wasn't worried about his life. He

was trying to kill himself. And they also like some of the other things, like they were seeing as big positives, like you know, he's he's retired, he's got this cool new job he's going to get, and he's got this cool new house that's were going. But from another point of view, that could be seen as well a big scary new mortgage. This new career in private practice, well, he had been in private practice before he went back

into the Air Force. He he actually went in and then left and then came back later when he tried private practice as a psychiatrist and it failed. This was his third stint in the Air Force, Yeah, because he had been in for four years, got out for a couple, went back in, and got out for about ten more years when he when he got his degree, and then went back in. So he had large and during one of the during that second tenure of not being in

the Air Force, that's when he went into private practice. Yeah, and it didn't work out so well. So yeah, so so that was maybe kind of a scary prospect. But on the other hand, he was retiring with pension, so it's not like as scared, like he had a backup. He had a hell of a golden parish. Yeah. Yeah,

I mean they're two combined. Pensions were good. I mean, obviously if that hadn't worked out, and then they probably would have had to get rid of the enormous house because that was way too big a mortgage for there. Even for that that's seventy five undred buck bucks a month, it's still way too much mortgage there. And but another big issue that I have with the suicide theory is that Colonel she was wearing a seat belt and he

was driving a car that hit airbags. But they had front airbags and had front airbags, and they didn't have side airbags. Now, actually the Mercury, uh, this one did have side airbags. You positive about that? This isn't it wasn't wasn't it like a nineteen five? Yeah. I did a little research on apparently that that particular model was a Mercury Tracer in in the ninety three models and

on apparently they had originally automatic seat belts. Those yeah, oh yeah, those were the most annoying thing in the world. Oh yeah, So they phased those out, apparently the ninety three models, and replaced them with side airbags, at least driver's side airbags. I'm not sure that every one of them had, but okay, maybe not. The the Tracer is

equivalent to the Ford Escort. But here's what I'll say is that, like, I don't the air bag thing, like find whatever, but the airbags weren't enough to save that. Cars have air bags, fine, But like if he was trying to kill himself in a car, he like yeah, why, well yeah exactly, That's what that's the problem that I have. But but here's here's what it comes down to, is we have you know, in all tellings of this, they're essentially two big theories murder suicide. But I have a

third one. Wait, wait, I I actually still have something on suicide, which is the light acane. Okay, if he did, if he did self inject in one of the wound sites, so we couldn't see the syringe points or the entry points of that. I was if you look at side effects of inter venous light a cane application, okay, they're sleepiness, muscle twitching, confusion, changes in vision, numbness which is pretty obvious,

tingling which is pretty obvious, and vomiting. So he could have maybe self administered that and injected it, and that could have helped him along the path because he may have been like, I'm going to I'm going to take myself out and then gets a little more confused, which is why he's swerving down the road when his intention is to, you know, to plow into a light pole. But then he's kind of blinking and drifting and he actually drifts around things. I mean that that could possibly

be a factor in it. I know that the levels that they found an him were weird, and they really they didn't seem to line up. Do you know how much was found in his system? I thought it was something like I totally wrong on this. I thought it was like about half a milligramper lead or something like that.

Would you like to hear the side effects of benetrol overdose, Yeah, I would love to extreme sleepiness, confusion, weakness, ringing in the ears, blurred vision, large people's dry mouth, flushing, fever, shaking, insomnia, hallucinations, and seizures. Yeah, yeah, which you could also So you're thinking that, yeah, a combination of all of these drugs

in his system. And there's also I guess, like just to toss out the suicide theory, like to toss a little extra into the suicide theater theory is like, what if he tried to kill himself with benetrell, woke up the next morning or didn't wake up the next morning, tried to kill himself benetrol somehow, and then started having hallucinations and getting really confused and like when and did all these really crazy things and then crashed his car.

I mean, it's not a great theory, but it explains like some of that stuff because like, who, well, my problem with my problem with the whole thing about Benejrol and ladder Cane is, uh, he's the guy was a doctor. He had all kinds of great drugs available to We have far far better drugs for killing yourself available than to him than it like benejrol. Why it can I think probably that's that's kind of so that's that's kind of the issue there. Yeah, I'm not but again I'm

not saying this totally. This totally rules out suicide. I mean, he might have really wanted to kill himself. So what's your third theory here? Well, I'm thinking it might have just been an accident and you know, well, what if he stays to torture. What if he intended to get into an accident but he didn't mean it to be fatal. So think about it. First of all, well, well, first of all, we know he really really wanted to get that life insurance policy canceled, right, Yeah, it was first

of all, he was concerned about his safety. Whether that was rational or not, he was definitely concerned about it. And there could assob be just the possibility that he really because maybe there's a little bit of bitterness because of the divorce, maybe the whole idea of Nancy. Maybe he has a heart attack and she cashes out to get to sweep pay out of a million bucks. Maybe that idea just can't really burned him. Yeah right, that

could be that too, I don't know. But whatever the reason, everybody seems to agree he really wanted that life insurance

policy canceled. Uh. And and maybe he felt even as even as a professionally thought well, the policy was causing anxiety and it was like this big cloud hanging over his life, maybe he felt like if he could somehow get that canceled, maybe he felt like his mental state would improve and a lot of that anxiety and depression might go away, maybe, which is not entirely unreasonable the thing to think. Whether it actually would have done that,

I don't know. But and so he decides to stage just kidnapping and torture and make it up here that somebody was really out to get him. Uh, And that will convince the insurance policy to drop the the insurance

company excuse me to drop the policy. But again, but why the car rect And my thinking there is that he wanted an excuse first for maybe some erratic behavior and memory loss, because you imagine, you know, you go to the cops, you know, with your with your fake torture and your duct tape and everything and they're like looking at you and kind of asking questions and they eventually trip you up and stuff. At its great, you've been in a car wreck, you just say, hey, I

hit my hand, I hit my head. I don't know. I don't know, dude. So they're probably not going to question you quite as intensely if you're like in the hospital. You've just had this car, you've been caught up, you're missing half your pinky finger and some of your ear, and you know they're going to be like, wow, who did this? And you're gonna be like, I remember, They're gonna be like, all right, well feel better, man? Yeah, exactly. You know you're not going to be like okay, and

which you know they're not going to go into it. No, I don't think so at all. Like again, it's it's an all perfect excuse. Another thing is if he if he was trying to kill himself, if I've actually traced his route up Highway ten on street view, he goes through three overpasses that had these nice, big concrete pillars that he could have actually plowed into and they would have done the job really nicely. Yeah. Yeah, And of course there were the light poles too. I'm sure they

would have really worked well. Uh, you know, the the Air Force, the arm Services report took this as hesitation hesitation behavior. For me, it's like maybe he was looking for a softer target then that a big old concrete pillar. He may have, you know, when he got airborne, when he was swerving in the meding he made may have been like, yes, this is when I'm gonna flip crap clip. Okay, fine,

let's keep on looking. And I gotta say, if you know, if he intended to kill himself when when I first read about the story, I assumed he plowed head on into this tree. I had not seen the trade that way a lot, it looks like. And when you actually see the pictures, I'm looking at that and I'm seeing the side of his car cave in. And one of the first questions I had, I asked myself, how exactly did he did he do that on purpose? How did

you do that on purpose? Like like get that tree or just cream the side of his car right where? You know? How did he get that? Did he do that? And as we all know, I said, he clipped the passenger side corner. The car spun around clockwise into the bigger tree and killed him really good. And I'm kind of wondering if maybe he intended to drive between those trees. He was not actually driving towards the tree that he

that killed him. He was driving to the right of it, and he would have missed it, thinking he was going to go right between, right between these two and maybe and maybe hit some smaller trees and yeah, there'll be a big kaboom and everything like that, my airbag would go off. But but but it turned out those little trees were stoutter and hardier than he had planned on. And so yeah, that one tree he hit, it spun

spin around the other one in that tree. I looked at the picture as the tree looked like it was none the worse for the wear the tree was actually tree seemed to be doing just fine. Uh. And so that's kind of my thinking, is that quite possibly he really didn't intend to kill himself. He didn't commit suicide, or if he committed it suicide, I guess, because I mean, if he killed himself, it was suicide, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's con best of both worlds.

I mean, there's like, there's still some questions but there's lots of big questions on all of the theories for me so well. But you know what I I started thinking about as we were talking about the last theory and this theory, and I'm going to walk down the road of possible psychosis, right, That's why I'm walking. But I don't know a whole lot about this, and I'm gonna admit it at the outset, But I just wonder if it's the same, if he's having you know, there's

a delusional personality or a second personality. It's almost like remember Fight Club Tyler Dirton, the second character in the whole movie, which he's not really a person the whole time, Boilers. It's been a long time. If you haven't seen it yet,

I'm sorry. But the point is that it could have been that he had something like that going on, and so he's this other person that is torturing him and chasing him when in reality, while he sees somebody else doing this stuff to him, he's doing it to himself

like he's he's in some sort of altered state. And whether that alternate personality is the dominant aggressor the one that's doing the attacking or the victim in the whole thing, because it could be that the second, the second character in his mind who occasionally came out and took over, was actually the one that was paranoid and running, and so you just you don't know where in his headspace

he's could have been. I'm just I'm wondering if it's if that maybe because that that's a combination of the suicide and accident. Is like one part of his brain wanted it to happen, the other part didn't, and in his struggle it happened, but it wasn't fully consciously intentional. That's that's that's kind of recing further into a psyche that I think we can I was going to say, I would, I would need to talk to some people about, like realistically if that happens and what the real world. Yeah,

I don't know. Hollywood is real. It's not. Yes it is, It's definitely not and if it's written in a book, it's real, and definitely Chechile lut Nick is not definitely not real. I mean he's real, but his stuff is so like I would, I would definitely want to know more about like the real I don't like how that manifests in reality. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know. I just I don't think there's a good theory on this case. Yeah, and I don't know. I mean, I mean,

that's that's always possible. But it's like, you know, it's hard to get it's hard to say what was going on with a guy totally. He didn't seem to be actually that far around the band. I mean the anxiety, which is not really that unusual most of us. I mean, most people suffer from anxiety exhibited so really weird behavior, like the whole thing on the airplane. We we're talking about this, but he got he got into a small altercation on an airplane at landed in Chicago, and they

said that he smacked a stewardess on the back. And then he's doing all these things like declining commanding a unit and all this stuff because he doesn't want to smear the service and he's got to get that take care of. Like that's really really really oddly obsessively focused on what seems like a minor thing. I think he was using that. It seems obsessive in one but it was like for him, I think, a good excuse to

avoid doing something. What they were talking about was promoting him to a command post, which would have been a lot more responsibility, and he might have taken a reading of his own psychic state and decided that he didn't really need that kind of pressure. Well, he also might have said, you know what got four months ago, I probably shouldn't take that promotion. Yea, So you can see it as there. On the one hand, it was a really totally rational response saying, hey, this might break me.

I'm not going to take that command and I'm going to make up whatever kind of weak excuse I can come up with, I will do it. But we also all know like that person who's just always a martyr in their lives, you know, where they're always like, oh God, I have it so hard. I couldn't possibly, I can't. I have to do the right thing for this, for the for the good of the greater good, I can't.

I couldn't possibly give my But we all know people like that, and it's totally possible that he was maybe a little bit like that, and he you know, it wasn't like a delusional thing. He was just kind of one of those weirdos Queen Yeah, who was just like, no, no, my issues are just too big shoulder. I couldn't possibly And we're not mocking that, by the way. It's just I mean that we're trying to rationally just got stuff.

So but it's impossible and we're gonna I mean, we could literally sit here for another oh my god, another two No, I just it's not Yeah, I think though that And that's another reason I like. I prefer the I prefer the whole thing about the accident because I see number one. If assuming, for example, Nancy didn't want to kill him, he had a great way to deny her that million bucks, which is just don't die. Don't kill yourself. That's all I do to keep the to

keep the X from getting the million bucks. It's just the gym every day, yeah, yeah, right, you know, and all that stuff, and so bring her killing him, borrying her killing him exactly, and so work every day. But the other thing reason I don't, I don't buy into the course and again, suicide or not I was rational is if so much of his anxiety came from this fear that he was going to get murdered for the money,

and then well, what's the response. I'm gonna go kill myself. Dude, I thought that's what you were afraid of, you know, And but yeah, like you said, it's like not so it's like he gets the worst of with this. It's like he kills himself, which he was terrified of, and the X gets a million box which he didn't want to have to see happen. And so it's like, that's why I'm still liking accident over suicide. But of course

we'll never entirely probably not for a fact. I'm certain in my own mind at least that he was not murdered and not towards I think the accident there is a really good one. I think he talked about fight club. Yeah. Good, a minute too. Well, anyway, let's let's do a little housekeeping before we signed off for this week. Naturally, you're probably gonna have an opinion on this, you're gonna want

to share it, of course, that's okay. We have an email just for that, Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And of course we have a web page which is also of course called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can find our our episodes. Uh you can find also an episode list. It's uh, got them all right there? Easy, too easy to scroll through and find. And we've got we've done. Yeah, it's searchable. We've got over two hundred

stories we've done. Uh. And you can buy merch merch, yeah, like mugs and T shirts and I don't know all kinds of stuff, slim jims. We don't sell slim jims. Why not? Yeah, lock picks anyway. Um, so that's and also, of course we are on iTunes and a lot of other streaming services. Also you should subscribe if you want to. Of course you should know. You should uh leave us a rating, a high rating, and also a review. We

like that. And uh, we're also on social media. We're on Facebook, of course, where we have a group and a page. You can like the page and join the group, and there's a lot of fun discussions going on out there. And uh, we're on Twitter where we are thinking sideways. And we are on Reddit, where of course we are thinking sideways and what's going on in the reddit devon? Anything good? Now? Okay? Yeah, what have I forgotten anything? All right? Well, that's it for this week. So I

don't have any snappy No, I don't. All right, see you guys, bye, oh bye, guys. Better everybody,