Thinking Sideways: David Sneddon

well it's funny. It's an interesting mystery in a mystery here is that David snedd and the singer has got a Wikipedia page, but list David Sneddon does not have one. Be honest with you, the singer David Sneddon kind of became the bane of my existence throughout researching this. Yeah, I know, because I don't care where he's touring. That's not what I'm after now. It's unfortunate, but yeah, he does clog after Google service. Yeah, I know. I'm sure that fans of him are saying the exact same thing

about our story tonight. I don't want to read about this story again. Really shouldn't have been in China anyway, man, any way, back to back to the disappearance of David snid And he was a twenty four year old students and traveler who disappeared in China and two thousand four. And before I say anything more, I'd also I'd like to thank our listeners Sean who suggested this story, and I'm glad that he did because I had not heard about this one before. It's really it's really good. It's

an interesting story, don't you think. Yeah, And so onto the case. Then let me let me lay out the facts for you. David was twenty fourth time that he just disappeared. And in two thousand four, he had finished his junior year at Brigham Young University and was planning on returning in the fall to finish out his final year, and he was making plans to go to law school. Had it all has left, all planned out? Yeah, he was.

He was a Mormon, son of Roy and Kathleen Sted, and he had ten brothers and sisters, big old family. And as he all probably know, Mormons are expected to go somewhere for two years on a mission, and the missionaries and score some new Mormons, and uh, yeah, that is part of what they do on their mission. It's not just trying to convert people. Yeah, yeah, even primarily. Yeah, but they'll do that kind of stuff too, Yeah, it's missionary work and whatever that it might entail. Yeah. Uh.

David spent his two years in South Korea. Then he was fluent in Korean. Yeah, and at b y U he also studied Mandarin. He lived in the Chinese house. Apparently they had different houses there that so you could be immersed in the language and learned. So he lived in the Chinese house and his plan apparently was to when he came back uh in the follow two thousand fours he wanted to study Spanish also, so he just planning on living in the Spanish house. This guy was

in the languages. Apparently he had some facility with them. I was I was gonna say, because that's not an easy thing to do. Yeah, now, neither of those are particularly easy languages. Yeah. Apparently, from what I understand, he was fluent in both Mandarin and Korean. Yeah. Yeah, so

that's that's impressive. Yeah. And anyway, after he finished his class as at b y U in two thousand four, he went to China to study Mandarin and Beijing and when the classes ended, which is at the beginning of August, he left Beijing with his roommate George Bailey, who was also going to be y U, and they traveled together until August nine. At that point, George had to leave because his plane his returned plane ticket was earlier than than David's. David continued on to United Province, and I

don't know, I'm gonna state this right away. There's a lot of words here that I'm probably going to mispronounce. So yeah, okay. So he went to Unan Province, which is in the southwest of China borders Vietnam. Laos Burma went down there. He went to the town of Lijiang, where he spent to night, and on August eleventh, he sent an email to his mother which read quote, actually, Devin, you want to read that so they don't have to listen to entirely in my voice. Sure, yeah, he says,

I'm in Lijiang now, the in western Non province. I will take a bus and hike tiger Leaping gorge in about half an hour. I am having a great time here, but nonetheless I'm excited to come home unquote. And that was the last that the family heard from him. Uh. He went to the tiny town of Keo Too, which is the jumping off point for tiger Leaping gorge. And by the way, let a moment here Tiger Tiger leaping gorge. You can do a Google on it. It's just fantastically incredible.

It's you've seen pictures of it. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, if I ever get to China, I'm really going to try to go make that take that hike. I mean, I don't know that I would take the hike though, it's a little scary. I'm I don't know I would take that. Yeah, Yeah, more about the hike in a

little bit. Here. He was carrying a large backpack. He left that at a youth hostel called James guest House, and he took the top that it's one of those backpacks that's got the detachable top party you can use kind of look at Fannie packed. And so he took that only and put a few clothing articles and toothbrush and this Book of Mormon in there, and uh left to hike the trail. And I'm sitting I'm assuming he had some water in there too. Yeah. He never came

back to get the backpack. The police found it there weeks later. He was he would generally stay in touch with his family while traveling. He would email them then two or three times a week at least. Um. When a week went by, they started worrying about not hearing from but they they assumed, well, he's kind of traveling in our remote area, so maybe there's no internet cafes.

But on the twenty sixth of August, he was supposed to meet up with his brother Michael in Seoul, South Korea, and he didn't show up for their meeting, and that was That would have been about two weeks after he left to hike Tiger Leaping Gorge. Yeah. Uh so the family got in touch with the U. S. Embassy in China,

and the Chinese authorities did a little searching. They they went around, like since he said he was going to go to Tiger Leaping Gorge, they went to the tiny town of Kian two and put up posters all over the place, especially outside hospital hostels. And they also went up the trail because they were there were also small little hostels and and what we're called guest houses on the trail itself. So they went to all those places and put posters up and stuff and ask questions, and

that's how they found the backpack. Other than that, they apparently his passport hadn't been used to his his bank account hadn't bed touch since August five. They checked the hospitals, jails, mental hospitals, found nothing. They decided that murder was out of the question because there's very little murdering that part of that part of China. It's kind of rural and you know, nice, it's not like the cities, and China does at least officially have a very low murder rate.

It's like, you know, one per a hundred thousand, which is yeah, and privacy, mean most of that is in the cities. Yeah, I would imagine. So, I mean it's it's kind of a cultural taboo, yeah, exactly. So they found his backpack where he left at Jame's guest house, like I said, and looking at that, they've got some clothes, some airline tickets, and some undeveloped rules of film, which

they turned over to the U. S Embassy. Eventually, they concluded that David had fallen from the trail to his death, because, after all, it is kind of a scary little trail. It was kind of kind of treacherous. In fact, I came across several amusing blog posts by people who would who would hide the trail. You read those two, yeah, ne were talking about how it was the most terrifying experience,

that there was a lot of colorful descriptions of the trail. Yeah. Yeah, so it sounds like why I'll never, I'll never hike it. It looks kind of awesome. Yeah, now it looks pretty awesome to me too, And I'm thinking about the opportunity

for for photography and some really awesome pictures. Yeah. But according the end, and probably you guys read those some of the accounts that I read, which is there are a few people that said it's very easy to lose your way and get sidetracked and get on the wrong path,

which not a false trails from the main trail. Yeah, and then some of those will lead to very perilous places and you and here you thinking, well, this is a real trail, you know your head, and you keep heading on down to this place that's going to lead

it like maybe not certain death. But oh yeah, no, I've I've read I think it might have been one of the ones you put up of hikers who went down a false trail and followed it for two hours and when they realized they were on a false trail had to go back and then continue hiking in the real trail. So they're doing it in the dark. If you've ever hiked in the dark, you know, just a flat area, it's kind of perilous. Now put yourself on some extreme slope with basically a goat track, that's what

you're doing. Yeah, now, uh yeah. The only time I went up lost and hiking in the dark, I luckily had a small flashlight with me. Yeah, that was a good thing for you. I'm really glad I had that with me, because I would have been hosed. As I said, The Chinese concluded that he left the trail, may roll down the mountain side, maybe even on into the Jinshaw River, which is at the bottom of Tiger Leaping Gorge where he drowned, if he wasn't already dead from the fall. Yeah,

from the fall? Is this? Is this a correct conclusion? Well, there's I found one Reddit thread. There's more than one Reddit thread about this. This this particular one was the shortest one I've ever seen it. That's somebody introduces the mystery and everybody's I'll come on. Of course he fell and died, you know, Yeah, uh so, but there were other threads that had a little more we were a

little less close minded than that. Yeah, there are people who think otherwise, including David Sniden's family, especially the family, because they've done a lot of looking for David. They really have invested heavily in figuring out what was going on. Yeah, good for them. I mean, you know, they won't give up on their son. I can only hope that my family would do the same, you know, you would hope. I don't know. I've met your family out and they

don't seem to really care for you. It happened. Who's going to watch the dog your hell? Okay, so it goes xerox off some posters. Yeah, here are a few of the theories that are floating around out there. And he yes, we're right in the theories now right away, right away. This one. Whenever somebody disappears, of course, this theory always gets floated, which is that they disappeared voluntarily to go start a new life. And you know, we

heard that in Marrow Murray's case, Dorothy Arnold's case. And I found a website called NK News which quotes an anonymous friend of David's who said that David was conflicted, that he was struggling, that he felt trapped, that he was being forced into a mold that he didn't really want. K News I believe would be North Korea. I'm suspecting. Um. You know, I was never able to find out to my satisfaction whether or not it was just a North

Korean propaganda side. Yeah, I think I was on that site and I couldn't figure out what was going on. I know, I know it's if you ever read any official press releases from North Korea, they're a lot less professional than that, particular than endkan News with the website. Yeah, I mean, because you know, the ones from North North Korean government are bombastic, combative and and just kind of ludicrous.

And whereas that one was that that the NK news article was was actually written in a fairly reasonable rational voice, even though even though I think they made up this anonymous friend of David's and they didn't say who he was, and it didn't sound to be like from his other his other friends said that he was conflicted at all. They said he was David. Back to end Kane News, he was last seen at the Korean Restaurant in the

company of quote A beautiful Asian woman unquote. So they floated the idea that he's decided to leave and start his life over again. Yeah, I don't like this, sary. Had he left seven hundred behind seven hund dollars behind his bank account, why wouldn't he get that out? If you're gonna head off to start a new life, how don't you want to take as much cash as you can with you. You never back to get his backpack either,

he already paid tuition for fall and bring him young. Um. And also, last of all, I think that leaving your family hanging like that is is really kind of what's the word I'm trying to think. Yeah, it's a d bag move, you know. I mean, and he didn't strike people. What I've learned about David, that's that kind of a guy. So I have a couple of questions for you. Yeah, first off, tuition was paid? Was he financing his tuition or was he paying cash? Do you know I never

found him? No, I do not know. That's a good question. I'm going to guess they're going to bring him young. He probably had to finance it. So when it says that it was paid for, really he had signed the loan paperwork, but if he never showed up, the money never would transferred. Yeah, I well, I in this particular case, I don't. I'm not fully behind the he decided to to just take off and make a new life. I

will say that from the perspective of his religion. It's you here describe I've I've known some folks who were Mormons. Is that there. It's a bit rigid at times, and you put on the happy face. You are everything is great. You couldn't be happier. You do everything you're told to. You show no signs of any cracks in the foundation, but that doesn't mean they're not there, and that doesn't mean that people in that situation won't do things behind

everybody else's back. Very particular example is that years ago I met a girl and we started dating. This was very briefly, and I kind of knew she was Mormon, but I didn't really pay attention to it. And then not too long after we had been together for a very brief amount of time, I come to find out that, oh, well, she's actually her family doesn't know about me. They think she's extremely devout and she's, according to the church, engaged.

This does somebody else entirely who was of the church. Okay, now she was doing all of this for I mean, she pulled it off with me for about a month before I was like, whoa, So no, this is not okay. She didn't try to convert you or anything. No. But but the point is is that when you are following what you're told you have to do and it's not what you want to do, people can get extremely creative about making that double life. Now do I think that that's what happened to him? I I really I don't

see anything. But then again, I have to wonder was he good enough at making that double life that for him the whole time in Korea was a giant party, but everybody else didn't know it because he was just so good at hiding it. You know, I had no idea how to vow he was. You know, any religion is like there's always going to be people who are more into it than other people. The varying degrees of commitment. Yeah, I had a lot of variance there. But he left

the money in the backpack behind. I don't know. People do, not everybody obviously, but there's a certain fair number of people who classify Mormonism as a cult just to like that out there. Well, you know, while everything like Stephen saying may have seemed really hunky dorry to his friends and family, if he was feeling that, it was kind of that way and the only way to escape out of it would have been to fake his death and lead a different life. But I agree, I don't necessarily

think you would leave all that stuff behind. Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. I mean that dropping of every physical trace. That's I almost want to say, that's like, you know, a total government plot level thought ahead of time, instead of you know, some dude who is like, that's it. I got to get out. He's not going to be that good at planning and ahead and you know, I mean, it's I don't think this is what happened, But I can't.

I can't push it away as a possibility is as easily as some are willing to, I can push it away pretty easily. I'm giving this theory um once one star out of seven possible. They it's one of those stories for Joe. Yeah, folks at home, please write down that number. You're gonna need a cheat sheet at the edge because there will be a test. Yeah. Yeah, so not a not a good theory in my opinion. Okay, next theory, Um, he was murdered. It's hard to say

why somebody would murder him. Something maybe robbery, Maybe somebody wanted wanted his money as Walleton, but it seems like he didn't have that much money on him. Yeah. Yeah, and uh, it's probably not necessary to kill somebody. You can just rob him, right. And of course, as I said, murder was not typical of the area. But I will say this I did, I did look around a little bit. But it turns out in in two thousand four when David disappeared, there happened to be a farmer named jiangyang Ming.

He lived in Yunon Province, although he didn't live like he lived near the sent of the city of kung Ming, which is a city that David was actually going it was actually going to travel to shortly. It's a nearby city. Uh. In May two thousand twelve, Young Ming Jiang how would be calling jiangang Ming was arrested for murder and turns out he was a serial killer and he was suspected of murdering perhaps as many as seventeen people. Yeah, his

first murder was in nineteen seventy nine. He uh served prison time for that until nineteen ninety seven, when they let him out and gave him some land in Yunan Province to be a farmer. After he murdered these people, reportedly he butchered their bodies and fed parts of them to his dogs. And here's the best part, or maybe not the best part, but a lot of the meat. He would cure it and take it down to the

local market and sell it as ostrich meat. It's white meat, yeah, I know, And so you don't know what in white meat is white meat? Yeah? So yeah, the word of the wise if you go to China, don't eat the ostrich meeting. Yeah. So, anyway, his spree is mostly concentrated. I think the ones that were able to pin on

him were from two thousand to two thou twelve. That doesn't mean that he didn't commit the odd murder before that time, just means maybe he escalated, so could Jang and David cross paths and did that and not so well for David that you know. My thing with this whole theory is that he's hiking a trail. Yeah, you know, that's not the best place to try and abduct somebody or commit a crime, because you don't know there's you know, there's inevitably going to be somebody just around the corner

on that path. Well yeah, but I don't. I don't because I personally think spoiler alert here and play your ear. But I personally think he didn't meet him on the trail. He met him, met him afterwards, after he left the trail, if he met him at all, that I doubt. At the odds of these two crossing paths is I think

pretty minimal. Yeah, it makes me think of do you remember what is that Timothy Oliphant movie where he is, uh, he's a newly wed and he needs another newlywed couple and it turns out one of the one couple is a set of crazy psycho killers. But it's just everything about the movie is so absurd because the chances of this and the chances of that, and you know, it's one of those we just build suspense and suspense till we have a sort of okay ending. But it's like

that that only happens in written Hollywood movies. That's where they meet on the trail and they hike for a day together, and they bore him my friendship and then he beats him over the head and cooks him for dinner. Yeah, I know the I don't think that if they did meet, I think they would admit probably later on. Okay, but I guess another point to be made probably is that you don't a tourist is probably way more likely to

be missed. That's an American tourists. Yeah, you know, because apparently people disappear in China with a disturbing regularity, but like locals, locals exactly. So everybody figures they went to the big city or the next town to get better work, or everybody figures that they were kidnapped and sent off to do Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, so I I murder. I'm going to say it's kind of improbable, and we're going to give that three stars okay out of okay. Yeah,

I'm going to be consistent here. Is this an arbitrary scoring system, by the way, or is there some you know, he's he's done all the math behind it, calculations want to make really complex formulas. I don't. I don't want to get you know, some statistician right and in about how our system is skewed. I just want to make sure. Yeah, now you multiply three of three or three times and you get yeah. And I like the system because it's more precise than just say four or five stars. Yeah. Okay,

next theory suicide. Now, I know it's stupid, but I'm going to give this one a quarter star. Yeah, because obviously nobody h there was no evidence of any kind of depression. His friend George Bailey that he lived with in Beijing and he traveled with after Beijing said I didn't report any sort of depression or anything like that. Yeah. I would give ran away more more credence in this. Oh yeah, twice as much in fact, at least our next theory he fell on the gorge and went splat. Yeah.

Of course, as you know, some people believe this, including the Chinese government. That's what China says, That's what says. Yeah, it's plausible because the high Trail's what we've already said. It's kind of scary, and people have died by the way. Of course, one difference between those incidents and this is that they found the bodies in the cases. Yeah, so this will be this will be a first, but that's not that doesn't make it completely out of the question, right,

But it's it's a gorge. It's not a you know, a smooth surface. There's nooks and crannies, there's places for a body to fall into, andre face, he gets stuck there, that's true. And you know, a month goes by and the local birds have been having a heyday with it. You're not going to notice it anymore. It's just a pile of stuff. Yeah, I know. So it's so that's possible. Uh. But David's father and his two brothers went to China. His father's name is Roy, his brothers Michael and James.

They traveled there about a month after he disappeared and retrace his steps. They want to they want to over the trail, and they claim that the trail is actually not that bad. And they also say they found witnesses. We saw him after he left the trail and the gorge. Yeah, that's what they say. So so then he made it out of tiger leaping and gore intact. Yeah. They arrived in Kao two on September twelfth, I believe, and the m of the U. S Embassy had developed the roles

of film that the Chinese found in the backpack. They found a lot of shots from his travels with George Bailey, but there were about four good shots that we had to have been taken only days before. According to George Bailey, the pictures were taken on August seventh and eighth, two thousand four, so just just a few days before he disappeared. When they got there, they hired its betting guy named Sean, who happens to own Seawan's guesthouse, Nentiger Leaping Gorge. Yeah,

and they also hired an interpreter. They sat on the high trail and as I said, they didn't find it to be as difficult to some people make it out to be. But apparently these guys have a lot of outdoors experience. Well I was gonna say, I know how old is Roy. He's in his sixties now, is that

about so? Yeah? So I know that not too long after everything went down with their son, and he and his wife went on another mission to somewhere in Africa, if I remember correctly, doing you know, their missionary duties, which was not all just sitting around in front of a table and waving of people. They're like doing heavy labor and stuff. So these people. They're tough stock. Yeah there, Yeah, they did. They apparently do lots of backpacking and hiking

and stuff like that. Worth reminding everyone, David is their family, so he would have been of the same. Yeah, he had According to the family, he was an eagle scout who had many years of experience with backpacking, and so them finding it not so difficult would mean that he would likely have also found it not so difficult. Yeah,

probably similar experience levels are competence. Yeah, anyway, they spent they traveled to the Gorge and uh, one of the first persons that they met they were they had they had made these placards that they put on their bodies which had a picture blown a picture of David's face and also in English and Mandarin's missing trekker. And they talked to a lot of people. People would you know,

walk up to them and try to be helpful. And they met this guide on the trail who was guiding some people through through the trail, and he said that he had seen David and he described he encountered this way. He said that he had been hiking from west to east in the gorge. So count two was in the west where you start out and then it goes up and over the mountains, then back down to what's called the Lower Trail, which is actually a road. Used to be a trail. Now they made it into a road.

And at that spot there's a guesthouse or a hostel called Tina's Guesthouse. So they were headed. They were headed from west to east on the trail, and David caught up with them. He was with a Hong Kong couple and he said that they chatted for a little bit in in Mandaroin, and he and David chatted. David and the Hong Kong couple would talk to each other and they would alternate talking in English so the Hong Kong people could practice their English, and they would switch to

Mandaaroin so he David could practice his Mandarin. So they had for three hours. So obviously this guy got a real good look at David. And then they went on to Teain his guesthouse where they all spent the night. Um, so obviously, if that's true, then he made it out of the gorge. Okay, let me let me describe how they how they questioned people. They tried not to ask leading questions or plant ideas so they first question was is did you meet a white guy who spoke Chinese?

And if somebody said yeah, I think I did, I remember, And then they would ask for a description of his his high weight clothing, and if that was reasonable, they'd ask what was he wearing a pack of any SciTE of any kind and asked him to describe the pack, the size, you know that, the color, and if if their answers were all reasonable and believable, and then they would pull out the pictures and only then and showed them to the witness and so pictures in addition to

the placard. Yeah, and the placard. Apparently the picture and the placard was not that great. It was was that intentional I'm guessing based on their questioning method. No, I don't know if it was intentional or not. That was just one of the most recent pictures available of him and it wasn't that high resolution. So so when they blew it up and put it on the placard, it just wasn't that great. But the travel photos that were in the roles of film. Turns out several of those

were very good, much better quality. So they'd show these of these people and then people would I say, yeah, that's the guy, or no, that's not the guy. But yeah, and so David, David obviously is going to stand out a little bit if you talk to him, because if you're Chinese, you're probably not used to running into people white Americans who speak Chinese. Yeah, that would be abnormal. Yeah,

it would be kind of abnormal. Um. The Stentdons continued on the trail to the end, stopped at Tina's guesthouse. Nobody there remembered David, so they asked if they could look at the register or the guest lugs to see if he had signed in. And Uh, at this point, I mean, I'm getting this from from some of their They actually wrote some long emails, which they eventually posted

on their website. Uh, they went through the records. They found the records to be in somewhat somewhat of disarray, and there were no records for the tant or eleventh of August in there. They've been confiscated. Um, you know, I don't know, because a guy named Chris Vogel wrote a good article about this whole thing and Outside magazine, and he said he said that in the article that these things have been confiscated and then they got the

logs have been confiscated for the month of August. But what what they said at the time was that they didn't say anything about the police confiscating them. They just said that the tenth and the elevens were missing. It sounds like their logs were pretty haphazard at the best. Yeah, it sounds like yeah, So, I mean that's what the Staton said that I'm guessing it's not a log book as much as a series of leaflets or sheets of paper. Probably, Yeah,

they said to quote the Snettons in their email. As it's a case with so many guest houses that we have visited, the record keeping is not always well organized or up to date. Um, sometimes records have been delivered to the police and sometimes they are missing. So and I'm not sure. I'm trying to as kind of a

police day. So I'm not sure if they have to save all these things for the police or that take them to the police, or or if the police took it when they were doing their original search, yeah, and then just never returned them. It could have been that. I don't know. I'm not sure if there was no if he didn't sign and I'm not sure why they bothered taking him except his evidence maybe, but then evidence that he hadn't been there had to be right about

the fact that he fell into the gorge. Yeah, I know, but you would think they would just look and see if he signed in and then give him back balogues, right unless he did sign in, huh and if they were like they wanted to cover it up. Yeah, possible. We'll talk a little bit more on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did find another place by the way, and Shangra Law. There's a town. I forgot the original name. It was renamed as Shango Law in two thousand and one. I

know that that. I gotta tell you. Reading about Shangra lass Anger lash Anger Law, really I got I was so weird because I'm like, wait a minute, no, I grew up hearing about Shangri Lab being this mystical place that nobody he found, and now it's a town in Tiger Leaping Gorge. What it really it's weird for anybody who has grown up learning that is that because it's from what is the book? And from nine three Lost Horizons? I think that's yeah. Yeah, they at least that was

the name of the movie. Maybe the book was something different, but yeah, I guess they renamed it that for touristic reasons. Yeah, it's totally why. It's a little tacky, asked me. But like the what was the movie the River Quai? They shot at the movie in the wrong place, and so the government went ahead and renamed a village so that it was in the right place according to the movie for tourism reasons. It's not the first time this kind of stuff has happened. That's hilarious. I didn't know about

that any way. Back to back to Shango Law. They did find a place called there was They eventually went on and and to Shangra La and I'll tell you how they got there. But this this place called the De King Tibetan Area International Guesthouse where some of the women who worked there I do David and said that he had spent the night there in August the thirteen. And she was not able to show the records because she did say that the police had taken all records

regarding foreign visitors. And whether that's just routine or if they took him because they were because of David's just disappearance, I'm not really sure. Anyway that staying on the trail. When you get to the trail, you can turn left or right and it's super familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, when you got off the trail and you wind up on the lower trail, which is the road. And so he's still along the river, So he still could have wind

up floating in the river at this point. Yeah. So he could have turned right and gone down the road to Kioto and gotten his backpack back, or he could have turned left and headed northeast to a village called Habba and some other villages beyond there. Then that that road eventually leads to Shaka Law, and so the family decided to turn left and go to Habba just on a hunch, and two kilometers out the road they got to Shawn's Guesthouse, which is where their business at their

guide owns. And by the way, Sean himself didn't remember actually seeing David one because David actually stopped in just briefly. He didn't spend the night there or anything like that. I think he stopped in and maybe had a little food.

But a couple of employees at Shawn's guesthouse did remember seeing David, and then from there they continued on to the village of Habo and canvas the town and eventually found out a storekeeper who had who positively identified David again to using their stringent methods of you know, describe him first before we're showing the pictures. Uh, they can't, they can't. They went on by a hired car and bus, et cetera until they got to Shango Law and the

first day they had no luck. Second day they found a Korean restaurant called the Yak Bar. And knowing that, David like, I know, I understand why it's named that, but it doesn't sound like I went to the Yak Bard made yak Yeah, I know. Well, I'm twelve. I can't help it. I'm fourteen. In the is funny. Yeah, yeah, Anyway, the act Bar. I wouldn't name my bar that, but but anyway, the owner of the act Bar did remember David coming into the restaurant three times in a two

days period about a month before. Again, she remembered him very distinctly. I mean she positively because he because she was Korean. He insisted on speaking to her in Korean and they had some good conversations. And once again, you know, white American who speaks Korean in China and China that's stick in your mind. Yeah, And she very possitively identified him and said there's no evidence that David was in

Shankra Law before he went to Tiger Leaping Gorge. Remember his email to his mother says, I'm leaving Lijiang on the bus to go to type of Tiger Leaping gorge, right, so he must this must have been after he left the gorge, so he couldn't have lined up dead in the river, right right. Yeah, I don't know, although this does bring up a because he was seen with a

with an attractive woman at that point. Yeah. Apparently she said that he came in at one point in one of his visits, it might have been even the last one, and he was with an Asian woman whom probably must have been an American something somebody. I don't you know, when when you travel by yourself, you tend to be friend people sometimes, you know, more likely to start talking to people. And she was probably American and probably probably didn't speak Chinese or Korean or anything, and so that's

that's what that's what The owner. Her name was Jang Yao Finn and she said that he did come in one time with an attractive Asian woman who did not appear to speak Korean or Chinese because David had to translate for her. So, so if from English state Korean? Yeah, so this might be the attractive woman that they talked about in the Endkan News article. But she didn't report that David and the Asian girl were like affectionate or

holding hands. It was probably just one of those things where you're traveling and you get kind of acquainted with somebody for a little bit, right. Yeah. And also, by the way, another employee at the same restaurant remember David too, so uh, and some other people around shang seeing David. So I think the Stentons did a pretty good job improving that David didn't die on the high trail and

tiger leaping gorge. Yeah. And also, by the way, if you if you'd taken he probably would have wound up in the low road on the low trail, which is a road, as I said, instead of plunging into the river. So I don't know, how what do you guys think of the theory they died in the garge? I got to give it a quarter star. It's just night and any an, he thought, Steve, No, No, I mean it's the evidence is there to disprove the fall I think so. I mean there's just too there's too many things because

he was too unique of a carecter. Yeah. Yeah, if they had found just one person, just one witness, and I'd say, okay, well maybe you know, but yeah, they seem to have found quite a few. And just let me show you here. You read the report right that. I read parts of it. I didn't read for the entire thing. Okay, I'm going to hold this up to the microphone so you can see it. This is they list the witnesses, and this is their their ranking system.

Looks like a QR code. Yeah, they're yeah, and so based on all the various criteria for credibility, um, they ranked them on a scale of one to ten using using this little table here. As you can see. Yeah, but as you can see, they were. They were very pretty credible, very stringent, and you know they didn't if somebody comes up and just says, yeah, I think I saw somebody like that. That ain't good enough. I mean you had to really jump over a bunch of hurdles

to actually be one of these people. They called, you know, what they call a sighting of David. Well, and that's the problem with you know, any kind of way. We talked about this so many times, witness testimonies. Oh yeah, I saw a guy who looked like that. I think maybe I'm positive kind of sure's yeah, absolutely, no, yeah, I mean that's just the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah. Memory is fallible. Oh yeah, it is. I think I think one of the advent I just ahead in the

case of David again, it's the language thing. Yeah that's huge, Yeah, that's real big. Yeah. Okay, So anyway, so much for that theory. He did not die into gorge. You what are you ranking that, sir? Of course I was busy looking at the map in front of me. Okay, I know. Our next theory, human trafficking. Here's something from the CIA World Factbook. Actually, Devin, you want to read that? Why not, Steve? Okay, Steve, you want to read that? No, No, I'll do it anyway, okay.

China is a source, transit and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labor. Chinese adults and children are forced into prostitution in various forms of forced labor. Yeah, why did I have to read that? That was the most depressing statement. Yeah, I just I just wanted people to live, to be able to listen

to other voices besides me. But it's estimated. I'm not sure how reliably that ten to twenty people a year abducted and sent off to do forced labor or prostitution or whatever is in China. Yeah, okay, that's about there. Abducted and brought into China. They're abducted and shipped out of China, you know, or whatever. But I don't know, but like why white American? Yeah, well that's the whole thing. I think that they would be less likely to because

of attracts attention. I just threw this one in here to have shre randomness. Okay, yeah, cheer randomness. So yeah, this this doesn't write too high. I'm going to give this two stars, probably probably more than it deserves. Yeah, alright, our last theory, this is an interesting one. He was abducted going the North Koreans. The last sighting of David Snedden was August fourteen, which was and it was at

the Yak Bar run now or one o'clock. He was leaving apparently for Lee Jiang on a bus and then he was going to stop off in Kyo two and get his backpack, of course, and actually he didn't say that to anybody, but obviously that ob yeah, that was that was on the way to you know, to the Jiang and and so he never got the backpacks. So it's we have to kind of conclude that he disappeared either in Shango Law or in Kyo two or somewhere in between on the day of the fourteenth, since he

was never seen or heard him about that. The statons seemed to be pretty intelligent, rational people, and they've already made a good case that he didn't disappear voluntarily, and that executive report that I talked about, they didn't make a good case. And of course we didn't rank that

particular theory very highly ourselves, right. They also established that he couldn't have died in the Gorge, and so their conclusion, and this was in late two thousand four when they wrote the report, was that David had been taken and was being held against his will. But at that time they had no idea who. They said their report to the State Department, by the way, like seventy four pages it was pretty thorough. It has pictures and maps and

graphs and all kinds of stuff. They they were pretty thorough and it was actually very helpful for me and putting all my facts together. It was it was it's worth looking at. They sent their report to the State Department, and after months of pleading, the State Department got the Chinese government to launch a new investigation that they reinterviewed all the witnesses at the Students found and it turns out all the witnesses changed their stories just like that.

They all they were all positive before that they had seen David when they were talking to the fair, talking to the family, and now at this point they're saying they're not really sure. Some of them were saying they don't remember it at all, really kind of hanky talking to an authority figure. Yeah, well that might be it, you know, it might be that. You know, again, there's been a lot of allegations of cover up and stuff

like that. But at the same time, and in some of these countries, when the government shows up, um, you're more likely say I don't really know because you don't really want to get involve. I don't really want to get involved, so you know, there's it's hard to say, but it's people have alleged that the Chinese government is actually trying to cover this up. Well, the weird, the weird shift of story from witnesses, such a dramatic shift.

I can see why people would say that. But I can also see why you would do that in that situation when suddenly you're faced with a couple of Chinese military men or policemen and they've got that look on their face, like, what did you see that you shouldn't have I didn't see anything. I saw nothing. I haven't no idea what's going on? Yeah, I live in a

state of see something, say nothing. On the other hand, though, it could be that it's incredibly frustrating for the investigators in China, the Chinese investigators who show up and say, all right, like, tell us your story. It sounds like you have something to tell us about this thing that can help us, you know, crack this mystery. Oh been witnesses suddenly go no, no, I don't know nothing. I'm god of fear, whether it's real or perceived. Yeah, so,

you know. So it's hard to say if there's a sinister cover up going on or not quite possibly well, yeah, but anyway, the case sat there for a long time, and then in April two thousand eleven, the students got a phone call from a guy named Chuck Downs, who at that time ran an organization called the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. He's he says he has left that position, but I think he's still involved in

North Korean issues. But Chuckdowns told the Snatans that he believed that David had been abducted by the North Koreans, which does make some sense because the North Koreans actually kind of are in the habit of abducting people stuff like that, lots and lots of it, mostly Japanese and South Koreans. Japanese especially because they forced them to teach English to the North Korean Americans. There have been a few Americans, some Europeans, Middle Eastern areas, all kinds of

people have been kidnapped by the North Koreans. Did you know that the the Um North Korean's own own are currently holding the only US naval ship to be like captured. They still have the Pueblo. They still have it, Yeah, which is crazy. Yeah, I you know, I've often I've up and wondered why the world puts up with North Korea. I mean, after after they several years ago when they sank that South Korean warship just unprovoked, they just torpedoed it,

sank and killed a bunch of people. I really, I really felt like the US and the Japanese and South Korean should have gotten together and just sunk their entire navy. I'm not joking. I mean that's that the snake of sink every submarine at the very least they do some

they do some pretty amazing stuff. I mean that the American that I was thinking of was gosh, what was it was the late fifties, was a couple of Americans that crossed into North Korea through through the demilitarized Zone thinking that they would get out of the war because the North Koreans would deport them to Russia and become prisoners of war and they get shipped back home and instead, I think one of them, the one who actually finally got out, he didn't leave North Korea till like two

thousand and four exactly, and his wife is Japanese and they were basically put together. I think he was like a thirty or forty year old man by the time they were put together, and she was a twentysomething. Yeah, they basically just and they probably kidnapped her. She was she was she had been forcibly taken. Yeah, he was. I believe. I believe he was one of their one of their principal English teachers, teaching their spies all about

English and America. Was significantly. He finally got out of North Korea, I think in July two thousand four, which is a month before David disappeared. Yeah, I did another English teacher. I hadn't even made that connection. Yeah. Yeah, point that lost Yeah. Yeah, they no longer had their

main English speaking yeah, to teach everybody. Yeah, I mean if they had gotten wind of David Snedden with his language skills and also he would have been a great teacher for teaching people about American customs and society and stuff like that on a certain level. Yeah, you could at least teach them to impersonate Mormons, that's true. He would know English, he would know general customers, have general knowledge, which is just invaluable. And I'm sorry, but we live

in an internet age. Even the government of Korea is going to have the Internet to be able to use for their spies even though they don't give it to their people. Maybe yeah, not sure. Dishes everywhere, Yeah, yeah they I'm sure that. I'm sure that Kim Jong and at least gets access to the Internet. Yeah. So yeah, he must because he found out about the interview. So yeah, yeah, that's true. That's a funny thing with the view, isn't

it didn't even watch that. I didn't. I didn't watch, but now I heard they were upset about upset they were happy, But yeah, I wonder how they felt about Team America World Police. I go back to the story for Yeah, so the actual evidence that Snedden was abducted by the North Korean. So there's not a lot. There is just one little bit, uh to May two thousand twelve, a Japanese group called the National Association for the Rescue of Japanese Kidnapped by North Korea. That's an actual thing. Yeah,

that's a that's a long name there. But in May two thousand twelve, they put some interesting information on their website in which they said a North Korean defector who had previously provided reliable information to them, had obtained Chinese security documents indicating that the twenty three or twenty four year old American student was arrested in Yunnan Province on charges of helping illegal residence and that he ended up in the hands of five North Korean secret agents. What

is it? What is that helping illegal residents? Bit mean, I'm not just heard several interpretations. It's kind of it's kind of vague. I mean, apparently there are there are illegal North Korean immigrants in there. They escape the winters Gun railroads. Yeah, that kind of thing, an underground railroad, because they escape Obviously in Korea, you're not going to escape into the South over the d m Z right, yeah,

and so and and so. The only other way to do it is to escape across the border into China. And then from China you have to travel so you can get to a friendlier country where you can escape from them there and go to South Korea. Um In I believe it was two thousand four, for example, there were Vietnam allowed more than four hundred North Korean refugees to leave Vietnam and go to South Korea, which apparently

upset the North Koreans quite a bit. I can see why they'd be upset about that they don't want their people to leave. Well, you know what I gotta say that if if your country is such a frigging paradise, why do you have to hold everybody a prisoner? I'm gonna sh my mouth. Yeah, okay, okay, but anyway, Yeah, so this happened again. Happened in August two thousand four in Yunan Province, Uh, to a white American around twenty four years old who was a student. Could it be uh,

this is in Kunming where this happened. Of course, if that is actually true, and then what that means is that that would mean the Chinese government had to have been involved, because if he had been kun Ming, that would have mean he would have stepped off in Kio two and picked up his backpack, because Kyoto was on his way to lee Jiang, which is on his way on the way to Kunming, which is where he needed to catch to catch this um his flight. Yeah, kind

of a straight line basically. Yeah. Yeah, so since nobody if if this report is actually true, it kind of had to have been David because there's there haven't be any other any other American tourists who disappeared in China

and China. These guys apparently, according to these documents, that Chinese arrested him in August, held him for about a month, and then either let him go or sold him to eventually sold his information to the Koreans for a bribe, or maybe for a bribe they just turned him straight over to the Koreans. Yeah, and what and and we have nothing that indicates a who that person is and be if that really happened, As far as I know, we have nothing. Yeah, I just want to I just

want to make sure. I'm like, well, let's start going through you know, let's I hadn't even thought about looking for anybody else who had gone missing in that general area for anything. Yeah, I think that if they're correct that this was an American student and he had disappeared and it wasn't David, then we would we would know something about that. I mean, some other American student had disappeared in China, we would we would have heard about it. Yeah,

I'll be honest. Though it could have has been a white guy, and they everybody just said, well he was an American, he was white. Yeah, it could have been a britty but I mean it's not just I mean it's like, um, it's it was a twenty four year old or twenty four year old American. Again, no, no Americans disappeared in China in two thousand four other than David Steadon. Right, so yeah, So of course this report

is not necessarily true, right. It could be. It could be distorted, It could be completely fabricated, could be whitewashed, it could be. I mean, we don't, we don't entirely know. But I did read an article, uh which actually, actually, by the way, I got quite a bit of information from and I rely on it quite a bit for our report here, not quite so much as the family's report, but I have relied on it. With this guy named Chris Vogel wrote this article which I've mentioned already in

Outside Online. You guys read that article, right, yeah, good article, right yeah, And he wrote an article about Snead and then he uh, he said in May two thousand thirteen, he had an opportunity. You talked to a Japanese cabinet minister about the association that's that's the association of you know, people people in support of kidnap Japanese by the North Koreans except that side. You got that wrong National Association for the Rescue of Japanese kidnapped by North Korea. There

you go, I just didn't. I don't know how you couldn't remember that. I know, it's like it's talking about three sentences long. So yeah, So he talked to this minister about the associate that the association's information. The minister's name is is Kaiji for yeah. He said that he believes that the association's information is very credible. He also said that the Prime Minister of Japan, Shenzo Abe, also

believes what the association is saying is true. So this is these are people at the top of the Japanese government think. He also said something, um, the minister said something in the order of that the Americans, the American

government should be doing more to look into David Steddon's case. Okay, So I just want to interject a little bit here though, is that at this point in time, Japan has it out for North Korea for taking people because it was right around this time that Kim Jong ill admitted to kidnapping Japanese citizens. I believe it. It wasn't it was who was he talking, dude? Do you remember this, Joe

or Devon. He was talking to somebody specifically, and he was trying to foster relations between his country and Japan, and the topic came up, and the interpretations that I've read was that he decided that by admitting it, he would be admitting it and then we would all just sweep it under the carpet and everything would be fine. And so he said, yes, we kidnapped thirteen people over the years from your country, and did we totally did that?

But opties, Now can we talk about some trade negotiations? And of course that got out and the public lost their minds. Can you blame them, No, not at all. From that point they have They've just got a axe to grind and all they tell everybody those guys are a holes and we need to go after them, and don't believe anything they say. Oh yeah, I think that.

I mean, I I do support maintaining lots and lots of sanctions against North Korea's because, let's face it, their gangster state and the only way they support or the only way that that entire country survives is aid from the rest of the world. That's the worst part. From the rest of the world doing things like counterfeiting US currency. That's that's not aid. That's their side, not officially in their grows, their their gross national products. But but they

they survive entirely on aid from other countries. I mean, I can't I don't remember how many tons of rice get shipped to North Korea. And yet they still have people walking their signs on the lawns, you know, in the public spaces that say please do not pick the grass, and there's nothing else to eat, unfortunately, and there's photos of poor people who were walking along with baskets picking the grass so that in throwing at a basket where they can take it home to feed their family. Yeah,

it's not doing it right. That's not a happy place. And yeah, speaking of age shipments and gangsterism, there's a kind of an amazing story from some years back when they were getting all these shipments of grain from China and they would of course gratefully offload the grain, and then they just kept the trains because because it's like, well, you know, we don't have a manufacturing base, we can't make trains, and we can't buy them because we don't

have any money. So but we've got these here trains from China. We'll just keep these Yeah, yeah, totally okay. If you're one of our many North Korean listeners, by the way, don't be offended by this. You probably know what's going on already. Yeah, they probably do. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

back to the Sneddons, the Seton family. They have written many letters, like we're talking fifty six letters at least, to the State Department into the government looking for any information the US government might have about his disappearance, and the only replies they've gotten is basically saying that we can't really release any information without David's written consent. I know, I know, I know. Uh that's from the U. S. State Department. Yeah, not the North Korea State Department. Yeah,

the US government. Like there's a story that I read, I think probably on Reddit recently. It was like this woman was like, hey, everybody, UM, I need some help. I just got this subpoena in the mail, and you know, it's a you have to show up for court, and it's uh, it's for my six month old daughter. And I called and I said it was my six month

old daughter. I think you subpoenaed the wrong person. And they said, no, she must show up for court or we will throw her in jail, so that you know, the woman went with the baby and was like, all right, we're here. I don't know what you want to sug testify about, but we're here. Yeah. So what did they do. Did they interrogate the kid? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's standed like put the kid in the dark room with shed a light.

All right, where's the bank? Yeah? Really? Yeah, so I feel like that's about on the same page. Yeah, it's it's litely, it's crazy. That's a government for you. They also filed a Freedom of Information Act request which turned up fourteen documents, and the government released only one of them, which said nothing other than the Chinese government hasn't found

any trace of David Well. Okay, that and the other thirteen they're not releasing because privacy concerns and national security concerns and sess in that, which is really kind of interesting because if the government, if the US government knows nothing, then why are they withholding thirteen documents and so those things would have been redacted, so technically all their secrecy stuff should be blacked out. Okay, I guess for me, it makes a little bit of sense because it's easier.

There's like a plausible deniability aspect to this, right, where if you release these documents and you say, yeah, we know that North Korea has him and we're like trying to get him back, okay guys, then you then you know, people will be like, well Troy hard or well whatever versus, you know, because because there's a possibility that he'll die or be killed over there, right, and so it's it looks publicity wise, it looks way better to be able to say we just found out had David and they

killed him. We had no Yeah, then it does to say like, yeah, we're working on getting him back. Oh yeah, that's that's exactly saving face, and it's probably politically it's better. Yeah, that's entirely possible. It's it's it's even possible that the Chinese government themselves, we're not involved in David's disappearance. Yeah, it's totally possible, But it would be embarrassing for them to admit that a foreign power is active as agents

active on their soil and it's actually abducting people. That would that would be a kind of embarrassing for an agent that is worldwide. I think painted is kind of buffoons, right, Like we kind of kind of worldwide paint North Korea as this like kind of bumbling of a country where you know, we make fun of them, and it's like,

you know, oh, I eat this like North Korea. But it would be it would be a huge change in public opinion if you were able to say, like, hey, they're actually being highly successful at covert operations of kidnapping people across the world. They have kidnap people from all over the place, Europe and especially Japan and kurred in South Korea, but a lot of other places too. And interesting that the guy we talked about a little while ago, David Jenkins, he's the guy that defected in nineteen and

was held He had the American soldier. Yeah. He he's living in Japan now and his personal belief is that they're not just abducting people for training purposes, but they're

also abducting them to breathe them. Yeah, yeah, because if you have like they apparently he said that the Koreans actually were gifted a much of American POWs from Vietnam who they were handed over to the North Koreans, and he said that they went out and found them, found them wives to meete with, because the whole idea is to have somebody who is ethnically South Korean or ethnically white American, but raise them and indoctrinate them in North Korea,

and then you've got yourself a nice little spy to plan overseas. So yeah, if you think it's more than just training, he's the guy at the has an interesting story. It's a long range plan, then, yeah, very long range. Um. And he himself, David Jenkins, still is looking over his shoulder. And when he left North Korea, the understand he was he was going to come back. He left with his daughters. His wife was already in Japan and I've been there for a couple of years. And he laughed, of course,

and never came back. And so he said that he doesn't go out at night. Well, I mean, the thing was is he didn't leave right away because his wife was one of the original parties that she was one of the abductees that was returned to Japan, and she was the trip was we're going to let you go visit your family and then you'll come back. And of course, as soon as they got there, the Japanese government said no,

you're not sending you back. Yeah, and so he you know, he's then of course in fear for his life because it's a shame my aspect, I guess. I don't know exactly what it was that he thought meant that the North Koreans were going to kill him, but he was really worried about that. When I were in his situation, I would definitely we do one of those underskin trackers

like that you can like embed in people. I would definitely do that and be like, here, everybody that I care about, here's the code to the GPS tracker that I've embedded into my body. If I disappear, please use it and find me a lot of agents of shields. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of the North Korean nastiness and craziness is also

David Jenkins. He was He was of course in prison there for many many years, and at some point somebody noticed one of the North Korean's notice said he had an army tattoo on his heart on his arm, and so that just wouldn't do. So they took him to They took him to a doctor, and the doctor used a scalpel and scissors to exercise without anesthesia all because oh my god, he's got a tattoo. It's crazy. Anyway, I could never go there. Yeah, no, I that's my

our army tattoos, tattoos in general. Yeah, army if you have MABE, if you're tattooed free, I don't recommend going to North Korea if you could possibly help it. Yeah. So anyway, that's about it. We've got our theories. There's a theory that he ran away, Davis ran away to join the circus, which I find completely implausible. There is a theory. I think there is some there's I said this before. I think there's some credence to it. I'm not on board with it, but I still consider it

a possibility. I think that's just your wide i'd hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's what it is. He would have gone back for his backpack and his money in his bank accounts, so maybe he fell on the gorge. No that nets have pretty much disproved that he was murdered by a serial killer. That seems pretty unlikely. Although you know he's murdered,

wound up being ostrich meet in the local marketplace. It's it's actually more plausible than the idea that he ran off to starting new life somewhere, but it still is far from proven. Has it ever been suggested that maybe he, you know, he was seen with that attractive woman it was it. Has it ever been suggested that maybe she was like married, or she was there with her boyfriend and that it was like a jealous lover situation. No,

nobody's ever suggested that that's possible. Entirely he was murdered or that wasn't he traveling a little bit with the married family and the guide. Yeah, maybe you know, the husband of that couple was got jealous and threw him over. I mean, you know, there's a I think there's a murder aspect of it that doesn't necessarily have to be like serial murderer or you know, somebody who went out just to kill him. It could have been like a

fit of rage sort of thing. Yeah. A lot of murders don't fit timelines, They don't fit into this nice little puzzle that we're laying out. They just kind of happened. People do random, weird stuff and it ends up with the loss of somebody else's life. So you know, it's like that, it's like the whole thing from I know what you did last summer where he was just walking down a road going to get his back back as somebody accidentally ran him over and hit the body. I mean,

that's that's entirely possible. And you know, then, of course our last theory, which is that he was kidnapped by the North Koreans, and which I think is the most plausible the theories not. My only issue with the North Korea theory is they are easy target. And it's not that I don't think that they deserve to be, but it's there the convenient one. And do you know what I'm getting at here? It's like everybody says North Koreans there, and they're a bunch of jerks and they do all

this stuff, so they must be responded. And we have no idea what's going on in North Korea, so it's really easy to just say there's no way from information blackout means I get to fill in the holes with whatever I want. That's true. I mean, it's it's entirely possible that the Chinese government could have taken him and they're holding him. I mean, I don't think it's likely, because why they have that mean they don't need English teachers.

The Chinese has, they have a lot of interactions with the US and Europe, and they don't really need him for any particular reason, so that's why. But it's possible, I mean, it's possible that they arrested him for questioning for whatever reason and he accidentally died in their custody. That's entirely possible. Yeah, and so there's all kinds of possibilities. But I'm I'm still saying that the North Koreans are

my favorite suspect in this one. Yeah. All right, Well that's about it, unless you guys want to theorize anymore anything else. Okay, Well, I'm sure if you're out there listening, you've probably got ideas of your own about this, and so definitely if you want to communicate them to us, you can send us an email. We are at Thinking Sideways a podcast at gmail dot com, So if you want to discuss this or any other mysteries, send us

an email please. Um. You can find us on our website at Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can download episodes and you can check links. We post links to all these various mysteries that we talked about, and you can also leave comments, preferably polite comments. Yeah, you can also find us on I tune. If you find us out there, please subscribe and leave us a rating and a review. We like that, especially good ratings and reviews.

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but thinking sideways. And last of all, of course, we are now on Patreon, so you can find us out there if you want to completely optional, but if you feel like it, you can, you know, pledge a small amount of money per episode. And again totally optional because I mean, I I read a lot of blogs and stuff like that, and I don't hit the tip jars, so I'm not trying to guilt to anybody in anything. Just if you feel like it. Okay, So that's it

for this week. Any last thoughts, guys, I mean, neither my mind is blank, so by everybody, we'll see in a week. Bye guys, Bye guys, and I want the Ostrichs meet you