Thinking Sideways: Campden Wonder

there's no catch, no credit card needed. Go to credit carma dot com or download the credit Carma app now think you Yeah, well, hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am your host, Joe, joined as always by Steve and by Devine, and together we are the terrific trio tripid. Yeah yeah yeah, Star star walls. Oh it's what they say in the old time heat like radio things and it's star walled man servant our gyle.

But I can't. I can't say it's fine, doesn't matter, Okay, going on, a good star, Moving on, Kevin, what's this word here? So I can't that's right, sorry, Joe, continue on. Yeah, let's do this. So for this week, we decided to reach way back in time, clear back to the seventeenth century as a matter of fact. For our mystery, it begins on the six of August in the year sixteen sixty when William Harrison UH set off on foot from the village of Campden Chipping Campton. I guess, I said,

I think that's Camden. What do you guys think? I think it's camp as Campden spelled Campton. But I'm sure it's once again our British listeners trying to trip us up with yet another tricky spelling force. Now, so he leaves his village towards the village of charing Worth or suit charing Worth, about two miles away, and he's going to collect rent money that's owed to his employer, who was the Viscountess Camden. And so so she, being the you know, rich titled nobles, owns all the land. It's

everyone's got to pay her rent. And so he's off to collect some rents. William Harrison was the steward Diverse states uh in which is Chipping Campton, Cloucester, Gloucestershire, which is a small town in the middle of England somewhere okay, Uh, it's about eighty miles northwest northwest of London, so converted that kilometers about a hundred and thirty kilometers six and forty flong's it's in the cots Wall just kind of like the very northern tip of the cots Walls, which

you may have heard of. Yeah, back to its Back to our guy, William Harrison. He set out, he did not return by the usual time, so that evening between about eight and nine o'clock, his wife sent their servant, John Perry to go looking for him on the road from charing But Perry didn't come back that night either, and Harrison didn't come back obviously either. So early the next morning, William Harrison's son Edward set off in the direction of Sherrington also to look for his father, and

he ran into John Perry on the road. So Perry tells Edward that Harrison was not in charring Worth, so they went together to Ebrington, which is a small village kind of between Cherry and Worth and Camden. Can interrupt you for saying, Joe, Yeah, so all of these places are what a mile or two apart? Yeah, park Ish Yeah, right now, I just want more than two or three miles apart walking distance, walking away from one another. Yeah, I just want to have people understand the short distances

that are being traveled here. And I'm sure you know, it probably was a little bit slow going because you're walking on roads, seventeenth century roads which were probably mud. There was a foot yes, yeah, no, this is August actually, so they probably weren't all mucked. They were just dirt paths. Yeah they were, but they were dirt paths. But nonetheless, I'm sure it wasn't didn't take that long to get from one or the other. And so they went to Abrington.

There they were told by at least one person that Harrison had been there the day before but didn't stay. They found not much other word word of him. They go back towards Camden. On the way they hear news had a hat, collar, band and comb were found on the road between Ebrington and Camden. And when they finally found that found the person with the hat and comb

and collar, they recognized him as being William Harrison. So and there was blood on the collar by the way, and that yeah, the hat and the hat and the collar had had both been had had some slashes on him indicating you know, so all this kind of like you know, kind of indicating maybe some foul playing. So the hat collar is just not they had no So it's the hat and the collar, so that the collar was excuse me, it was a shirt collars they used to Yeah, they s collar, yeah, because they had that.

And then they had also those like long garter sleeves that you see the cuffs and they're like these big just like tie here and tie over the shopkeepers and stuff like yes accounts the green build hat on. Yeah, so those were to protect their shirt sleeves so they

didn't have to wash them as much. And then the collars were also detachable because that's like where you sweat, so you didn't because you have like the one or two shirts at the time, right, so you just remove your collar and wash that, wash your shirt sleeves, hat a shirt collar, and the comb is just a regular regular combs like yeah, exactly. Yeah, it really is funny actually closing those days this is pre industrial revolution. They

really were a lot more expensive. Yeah they were, I mean they were more expensive, but they were like more durable and then you know they were more kind of yeah. Yeah. But anyway back to our story though, So news gets back to Camden and Harrison is missing and presumed dead. So everybody, of course rushes out to the countryside and starts beating the rush looking for him, because this was what was popular entertainment at the time. Of course, yeah,

they didn't have TV in the internet, so what the hell? Yeah, but they found nothing, nothing at all. Uh n. Actually, of course suspicion fell on John. Parry says he had gone out that night and not come home, and that was kind of hanky, which didn't make any sense. No, not entirely. Now. So the next day Perry was brought before a Justice of the Piece who asked him why he stayed out the night that he went out to

find Harrison. And Parry tell us this kind of strange story, which you guys are familiar with, com Peter for our listeners.

So he sort of left left the house and ventured out a little ways and then comes back because he was afraid of the dark, doesn't go back inside the house, so it just comes back to the gate and and then the local guy stops by, and together they venture out into the weeds a little bit, and but then Pierce had to leave, so Parry goes back to the gate and then he goes inside the handhouse, lays down

for an hour or so. Um, and then around midnight the moon was out, so he he got out again and left and went down the road because well there's moon, so I can see who's Pierce. Pierce was just some random local dude. You just said it like we were supposed to know that person. Yeah, I think so. And uh and and also he verified actually some of what Perry said, although there wasn't much because he just basically ran into him and they went off in the weeds

and came back. And so that's it really sounds like maybe somebody was shirking their duties and drinking. It could have been. That's really that's what I like, you know, I've got a little i'll take, i'll treate like time off. So he goes out and finds his stats and the hedge row, you know, and you know, pulls out his bag and makes himself a generous joint lights up, and uh, maybe I don't know who knows what he was into.

I mean, he could have been scared of the dark, but also like too scared to say he was scared of the dark, and also too scared to come back without anything. I mean, maybe he would just hang out and just just come back and say, no, I looked all over it couldn't find him, I know. Yeah, And actually in those days, of course it was more dangerous to be out on the road. And now for sure, yeah it wasn't that there were street lights. Yeah, there were no street lights, and they were definitely I mean,

robbery and all kinds of stuff was going on. So it's understandable that he felt a little reluctant to go out there. But it's still kind of weird story. Yeah it is a weird so you go, but yeah, his story is weird. He goes out down the road again the moon, the moon is out now, but damn it, some mist comes up. So he was lost in the mist, which I don't really understand because these roads in Britain

at the time, we're all surrounded by hedges. So how do you get lost, you know, if you're just bounced off the hedges one side or the other, I guess. But so he slept under a hedge that night, and then at dawn the next morning on Friday, he continues on to chairing Worth, where he spoke to a few locals who had seen Harrison and then he heads home, meets Harrison's son Edward on the way, and they then

he went to Everton, etcetera. As we know, he was asked why by the justice of the piece, he didn't, you know, at midnight when he got up to leave again, why he didn't just go inside the house to check and make sure that Harrison hadn't come home. And he gave this story like, well, there was a light on in the bedroom and I knew that if that light was on, then then that's because Harrison wasn't home, because it would have been out. Okay, so you know it's understandable. Ye,

I don't know. You think he would check, but he didn't. It was not exactly incriminating. It didn't quite make total sense. And so he was kept in custody and campden for

about a week because of this. Uh and while in jail, apparently told some people that a few stories which want to tinker had killed Harris, and uh another story one of the servants in the neighborhood had killed and robbed and killed Harris and his body had been hidden somewhere in camped And it sounds like he's just a blowhard blatherer. I think so. I think so. Yeah, and maybe not much to his detriment. Maybe not that smart. You know. That's the first first rule of thinking sideways is when

you're when you're under arrest, keep your mouth shut. Yeah, but also don't plead the fifth at the same time. Yeah, no, that looks bad. Just don't talk. Yeah, just pretend to be mused. Yeah, exactly, hand car. Yeah, he loves the lamp, loves lamb. You asked for a pencil, like a pencil and paper, and when you get it, you just grabbed the pencil and make a big ax and then look at it like you're really proud. Yeah, okay, anyway, I

totally so. On August, Parry is again brought before the Justice of the Piece, and this time Perry Stell tell us the Justice that Harrison had been murdered, so totally different story, but but not by John. Perry said that his mother Joan and his brother Richard had done the deed. Uh. And so to make this sort of long story short, he said that never since he took this job with the Harrison's, and the Harrison's were well off people because they worked for the Vicountess, right, and so he got

this job as their servant. So ever since then, his mother and his brother, he said, had pestered him uh to help them, to help steal from them or or whatever rob from no, because they need the money. And so they wanted him to basically tell them in advance when Harrison was going to go out to click rent money so they could wale him on the road and rob him. So on the Thursday morning that Harrison went to Charrington, uh, John Perry told his brother Richard where

Harrison was going. And then later that evening about when he was heading out to look for him on the road, and that was about John Perry met Richard Perry at the gate and they went down the road looking to intercept Harrison, Richard being his brother, Richard Being's brother Richard Perry uh, until they spotted someone they assumed was Harrison.

And I got to interrupt this to say this is this is again a little odd feature of his story, which is why did Richard wait until this late which is after actually Harrison was supposed to be back home And then he finally shows up and says, Okay, let's go do some robbery that that doesn't quite make sense to Yeah, there's things about John Perry's story. Again, they just don't quite add up. So John Perry tells Richard to go rob Harrison while he just ambles around in

the fields a little bit. I'm not sure what this is about. Maybe he thought Harrison would recognize his voice in the dark or something. I'm not sure. But so he tells his brother to go do the robin and then he comes back and he finds Harrison is on the ground with Richard standing over him, and his mother is standing nearby. So so William Harrison was not dead at this point, but Richard Perry finished him off by

strangling him. Uh. And Richard and John carried the body to a nearby cesspool and tossed it in after taking all the money out of the pockets, etcetera. And this was not that far outside of Camden. So John Perry goes back to the house. This is where he runs into that guy Pierce that I was talking about earlier. Runs into Piers just to see it, said earlier and uh. And after that went into the hand house and stayed

there till about midnight. But the differences is he had kept Harrison's hat, collar band and comb because after the moon came up, he took him back out on the road a little ways out and dropped him on the road, so it looked like, you know, he had been actually way laid in the cost is somewhere different from where it actually happened. And uh yeah, crime scene staging, right, yeah. And then and then of course he sets off towards

Charrington to complete his fishy story. And he also confessed that just the year before, William Harrison's house had been broken into and someone has stolen a hundred forty pounds from it. The prips were never found, and Perry told the Justice of the piece that well, Richard had done it using information that John had given him about where to find the money. Okay, so he fasted up to that too, And so of course Joan, mother Joan, and brother Richard were arrested, and of course the cesspool was

dragged and searched for Harrison's body. I don't know if they put a guy in a scuba suit or what to set him down to search the bottom. Yeah, probably, but they didn't. Oh yeah, just not disgusting. But well, they didn't find his body, and they checked every other pool in town, also fish pools or at ponds, or whatever. They found nothing, and then they searched the entire town. There's some ruins of the original estate, the Campdas state and they want to do all that stuff. And so

they found no body. But anyway, the rest of the family, Joan and Richard, the mother and the brother, denied all the charges. Of course, they said it was all just bs, which was what you'd expect them to say. John stood

by his story. And there was one incriminating piece of physical evidence was which is a ball of blenden tape that was founded on Richard Pairing, and a policeman showed it to John Perry, and John Perry said, oh, yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's the strain that my brother used to strangle my master with. So that's the only physical evidence they've got. Yeah, so they don't have the body, don't they maybe have

a murder weapon? And as far as evidence of the burglary, well, Richard had told John after the burglary that he buried the money in this garden and they were just going to leave it there and tell everything cooled down it was safe to spend it. So it was still buried in the garden. At the ends of this point, right, they went and dug up the garden authorities did they found They found no money. Yeah, I know. Uh so John's stories. He's confessional these major crimes. There's no evidence

to back up anything he's actually said. And of course his mother and his brother deny everything. But nonetheless, in September and the following month, after the disappearance of Harris, and all three of them were indicted for burglary and

also for robbery and murder. Yeah, and the judge refused to try them on the robbery murder charge because the body had not been found and this is like less than a month after he disappeared, and so that he thought it was just not quite right to charge somebody with murder when he could just be off somewhere gallivanting around the country, right, yeah, yeah, And so so he wouldn't charge him on that. But they were still tried for the charge of robbery and they pleaded not guilty.

But then they changed their pleading guilty because this came after This is where we get you get a little free English history lesson which I'd sure all British listeners are gonna love to hear. Yeah, refrained from Yeah, they haven't heard this before tell me I got everything wrong. But they changed their police to guilty and asked the court to grant them amnesty for the crime because there was a pardon in the Act of Oblivion of King Charles the Second that had recently come down, and so

they got a pardon and that was that charge is dismissed. Uh. In the case you're confused about that, I'll give you a quick background. This happened right after the end of the English Civil War in se Charles the First was beheaded and the monarchy and the House of Lords were abolished. England was declared to be a commonwealth with the more representative form we've got it makes sense. Cromwell and people hated Cromwell. Well, this is before Cromwell. Actually he was

like this, yeah, yeah, Cromwell was around. But but the things that he really didn't like with the Protectorate, which came after the Commonwealth. But the Commonwealth didn't work out so well. In sixteen fifty three all over Cromwell was declared Lord protector and this period is called the Protectorate, and Cromwell ruled with all the powers of a king, but he was totally not a king. Got it. Totally,

not at all, not even close. But it turns out life down the life under the protectorate was more repressive than it had ever been out of the monarchy, almost like it was a dictatorship. Yeah and so so eventually Parliament proposed to restore the monarchy, and the offer that thrown the Prince Charles, son of Charles the first. Oh like Charles, the one that prince that we have now, yeah, the same, the same Prince Charles. He looks like I was going to say, because that Prince Charles is actually

prince under his mom, the Queen. Alright, so different Charles, different Charles. But yeah, well no, the English made this confusing by naming all of their same humans, the same people, things, the same people. It made sense. Shut up, Why, I mean, why isn't there why is there not a King Javier or King Man? Well, yeah, or king anyway? Sorry, So,

how does this affect the guilty plea? Well, okay, So, so when Parliament offered to restore the monarchy and give him the throne, they made it a condition of his return that he issued a general pardon for all crimes committed during the Civil War. The Commonwealth and the protectorate, and the idea was just kind of a reconciliation, you know, like you just washing wash the slate clean, like first start. Yeah,

pretty much every crime, every crime except regicide. Okay, So I could have gone and murdered someone like a bunch of people probably in the middle of the didn't kill like a king or a prince, and they would have been like, well, actually it's okay now it would have been yeah, because we got a king again, so it's cool. Yeah, everybody awesome. Okay, Well I know where I'm going in my time machine now, I know I know about yeah

six six that's a good time. Yeah. But anyway, that's how that's why they were able to plead guilty to this burglary and get pardoned for the crime because just under the tag and he had some good lawyers. Okay, no, no, I don't I don't even know if they had a lawyer. It might have been the justice himself and said, hey, look, why don't you spare us all aheadache and just plead guilty. Yeah, that's probably more likely what happened. So they were guilty,

So they did it. No plead pleading guilty. They all denied later that they're actually guilty of this crime. Yeah, John took back all of his confessions. You have to wonder if maybe John wasn't under a little bit of dressed by the police, kind of kind of pondered that maybe he was given the old rubber hose treatment. Perhaps. Um, but you know, the guilty plea might have made some sense,

and it saved everybody the bother of a trial. It probably, from their point of view, in a sense, was a smart move because it means it meant that the justice who was sitting on their case was probably more more inclined in their favor because he had just saved They had just saved him some hassle, you know, so scratch my back, I scratched yours kind of Yeah. But but it was bad optics with the public because in the eyes of all the locals who were the future jury

pool for any trials that might happen foreshadowing. Uh, it confirmed that the parish they were guilty. Yeah, they were scallowags, they were there were nearly wells. Yeah, it confirmed that not only had they wanted to rob William Harrison, but they actually had robbed him and so and so well necessarily. But but it made it easier to believe later on down the line that they had way lad him and robbed him and murdered him, and eventually they were tried

on those charges. Of course, that didn't happen for until the next year, in March sixte By this time, of course, there's still no body. But people felt a little more comfortable about the situation because it has been like eight months a year in a while, and so and no word, no side of him. And he had a wife, Yeah, he had a wife. Yeah. And he had a nice job, which he presumably would have he would have probably sent

a letter to his wife. Yeah, he was him. Yeah, I mean in those days, and you know those days in the Europe or you know anywhere in America even I'm sure a lot of people just just mosied off. There are people who are kind of foot loose and just mosied off. Yeah. It's a giant convenience. I really hate the way things are working right now. And you can be better somewhere else. Grass is greener. I can just easily leave absolutely, hop on a horse and ride. Yeah. Absolutely.

But but somebody like him, yeah, I know, I remember, Yeah, Well, somebody like Harrison. Yeah, and uh, they all pleaded not guilty. That is the Paris John and Joan and Richard. John of course said that he recapted his confession, said he had been insane and didn't know what he was talking about. And again, who knows. I mean, maybe he did have some mental issues, even I don't know. Yeah, I mean they weren't really diagnosing those at the time, not really

all that well. And I still kind of believe that most likely the police kind of leaned on him hard probably, Yeah, but so okay, sorry, I think we were just busy kind of like uh laughing. Yeah. To be clear, they're being tried for the murder. Yeah, okay, yeah, they were the whole burder. Everything is long in the past. It's the murder now, it's the robbery and the murder. Uh. They were all found guilty. They were all sensed to hang and then yeah, I know, and then they don't.

They didn't do it in those days like we do it now in America, where you wait like thirty forty years before it actually happens. You know. There was two days, yeah, yeah, two days. It's a quick and expedient trial, very execution. Yeah yeah. Two days after the trial they were strung up. This was on the hill outside Camden. Legend has it Joan was executed first because some people thought she was a witch and that she had cast a spell over

her sons. So well, she did float yeah, water, so I guess I don't know if they tried that or not. So if she was dead, the spell would be broken and John and Richard would finally tell the truth and they would find out what happened to Harrison's body. For example. Well, that didn't work out. They still said they didn't do it, and still said they had no idea where the body was, etcetera. Even after the mother was dead. It seems like they

could have. I mean, do you think they would have been free if they had been like, she cast a spell on us? Oh my god, I can't believe it. We did it, and we fed his body to the pigs and there's no evidence. Yeah, I don't know how that would have worked out. You know, they should have thought that, I mean, I mean, what the hell do you have to lose? Yeah, that's true. I mean they would let you go. I would totally if it were me, and I would I'd just be like looking around, what

am I doing here? Oh? My god, what where else is going on? Oh? My god, my mother's dead? What happened? Yea dead for years? Yeah, my mother died in childbirth. Yes, yeah, that's a good one. So um yeah. Anyway, so if you go back in time to get to give these guys a little coaching, OK, yeah, that would when probably yeah? Yeah. They So they also were hung with Richard next and then John the last. Yeah hanged. Yeah. So that was

the end of it. Harrison was presumed murder and gone his killers that had had been killed, and they were executed, I guess as a more appropriate words. So okay, So I'm sorry, Uh, I guess I'm confused about the mystery is here because it sounds like this guy got murdered. Granted they didn't find his body, so is that the thing? Or is it because they denied they thought, they said they were innocent until the end? Is that they so? Mean? Yeah?

Well our story is not quite over actually, okay, because the following year, late summer sixteen sixty two. Uh, guess who guess who comes back to town William Harrison. What does he say is going on? Yeah? Because obviously everybody's curious to know, really curious to know just where the hell he'd been, because after all, I mean, but yeah, but three people are dead now. But he actually had a good excuse. He had been unavoidably detained, and he put the whole story into writing, which is by the

way out there. You can find it if you look around. Uh, and it's not made up. It's actually part of the historical record. And just i'll just it's a long document, so i'll just paraphrase and here repletely because it's quite lengthy. Yeah. So when he sat out that day August sixteen, sixteen sixty, he was accosted by three men on horseback on the road who stabbed him with the sword and then grabbed him and put him on the back of one of

their horses and headed off to the east. And they rode for about three days, staying the night in various isolated places, and we'll finally wind up on the coast on the English Channel in a town called Deal, was still exists today, by the way. It's about eight miles northeast of Dover. And at Deal, he couldn't really tell for sure, but it looked like it was a negotiation, and he believes he was sold for seven pounds as a slave, apparently, so he was taken out to a

ship off the right, off the coast. They're put on the ship along with a lot of other people in a similar situation as him, and then he estimates he spent about six weeks on the ship, just sailing around the seat. I don't know where they were going, because I mean, I guess around they were sailing towards the maniature. Seems like six weeks would have been plenty of time to get you anywhere you wanted to go, anywhere in

the world. Yeah, really, But anyway, they were on that They were on the ship for about six weeks, and then one day they came into contact with three Turkish ships.

It's not clear if these were pirate ships or if they were just slavers or what, but he and all the passengers who have fellow slaves, I guess, were transferred across to one of the Turkish ships and they spent an undetermined amount of time on that ship before they made landfall, which it turns out was in Smyrnatt, Turkey, which is where modern day is Mayor and now is now And so he was sold. It was it was

as some sort of a slave market. He was sold at this this very old doctor who happened to speak a little English, and basically the doctor, I don't know how much he paid for him, but he wanted him to run his distillery. So that's what he did. For over a year. He ran this old guy's distillery and the old guy was kindly gave him this nice silver bowl to use for drinking or drinking, eating soup or whatever. And that was basically his his only thing, his only possession.

And uh, after about he says, about a year and three quarters, the old guy, his master died, and so Harrison made a break for freedom and lifted to the port at Smyrna and tried to try to put passage on a ship. He managed to get on a ship that was going to Lisbon, Portugal and return for his silver bowl. So thank god for the silver bowl, right, yeah, I mean really, uh so he traded that for passage

to Lisbon. Once he got into Lisbon, he was totally at louci as he had nothing, I mean, not a penny, and but he was hanging out and he was this guy walks up to him and starts talking to him. When it turns out he's an Englishman. And so this guy, you know, here's a sad story, and he takes pity on him, and so he puts him up, you know, gives him a place to stay temporarily, and and then

finds him passage on a ship to Dover back in England. Uh. And then before he goes, gives him some wine and some brandy for the road and and a little money and sends him on his way. And so he made it back to England. We never found out the name of this guy. But that's a that's quite a story. Yeah, that's an interesting story, don't you think It's a way to put it. That's not the way I would have put it, but that's a nice way to put it. Yeah,

you know, but but it accounts for a lot. I mean, it's it's unfortunate that three people were killed, but you know, what could he do? He was enslaved back in Turkey, so you know, and so hey, what's it. What's the guy gonna do? Right? And and well that's it. It's like the story actually was not that well received a lot of people. Frankly, I don't know if anybody believed it.

I don't think anybody and people have been wondering ever since, and that's why this story is usually called the Camden Wonder. That is the official name, because it makes everybody wonder what the hell happened? Obviously, the story is a bit questionable about slavery and everything. So the mystery is here, what really happened to William Harrison? Where did he go? His hat, comb and bloody shirt color were really found

in the road for real? And so did they fall off during his subduction, assuming his story was real, or did Harrison plant them there to fake his own death? And what the hell was Perry doing? What? Then? Why the hell did Perry claim he planted them there? Yeah? Yeah, I mean if Harrison did fake his death and run off to start a new life, then where did he go, why did he do it well? And why the hell did he come back? And also, of course I've already said this, but why did John Perry confess to a

murder that never happened? This is so that's why this is why it's called the Wonder because it's freaking there's lots of wondering. Yeah, and I left out a few details here. I'll just mention him. Rumor has it Harrison's wife committed suicide by hanging right after he came back. If that happened, we don't. We don't know for sure that that happened. But and like any any one of these things, I mean, certain things do get added to the story. Another one was at in her possessions after

she died. There was a letter from Harris and William Harrison found in her possessions that was dated after his disappearance. Again, I don't know if that's true or not, but if if those things are true, then it certainly adds to the intrigue. Don't you think how he comes back and she killed herself. Yeah, and by the way, I want to get a hat tip to a guy named Peter Clifford. Well, we will link to his website, but this is a guy who is, oh yeah, he's done some serious historical

research on this mystery. I mean, he's he's definitely gotten down in the weeds. He's not a tinfoil hat guy at all. A good website. But hat tip to Peter. Thank you, Peter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good point. Uh So, yeah, that's our mystery. What the hell really happened? So it's now, as you know, time for the series. But first let's take a break. You look into your wardrobe and realize, I think somebody else bottle these clothes for me. Is my closet haunted? Man, You have to get rid of

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new the return William Harrison wasn't impostor? Oh like Bobby what's his name? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's been a bunch of them. Who's that guy that was in that? Was that? Was that Bobby Dunbar? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. Uh, it's it's happened. I mean, there's been a lot of stories like that. Usually it's a little kid that's brought back where'd added with his family and if the kids spirited age not a seventy year

old man. Yeah, and his wife was of course still alive, you know, at least it's long enough to hang herself. Okay, if you believe that story. So I don't really buy this one, you know, of course, unless maybe old Harrison had a twin somewhere. Even then, is this an actual theory out there that anytime there's something like this happens, you know where you know, there's at least somebody's gonna be saying, well, could he be an impostor? Yeah, I

have a theory about this. Actually, um, it was that they never found the body, but it was really well preserved, and then the ghost of one of the Perry brothers came back and inhabited the body and just took over his just just a mess with people's heads. Yeah, yeah, I like the idea. Wow, that's not witchy at all. It was Joan, You're right, it was could have been Joan. Joan actually did that one of the boys. Could have been a witch you don't know? Yeah, yeah, sorry, which

is yeah, I don't think it was. I don't think it was Joan and her witchery because she probably would have just messed with everybody's heads a lot. More like, isn't it really a shame that he strung those three people up just over me, silly old meat? Isn't it a shame? Just? I mean, he was constantly messing. As far as I know, that didn't happen because nobody, nobody shot him. Well, next sory, Well, Harrison really was kidnapped

and enslaved, which totally explains everything. I mean, you got to admit, you know, but even at the time, a lot of people find this found the story kind of hard to swallow because why the hell would anybody a kidnap him. He was seventy years old, not exactly you know, prime material for the slave market. He's not exactly on the coastline where he's an easy nabbing distance. Well, he's

from from where he was. He was like a good hundred miles at least, if not more, from the town of Deal, And of course, with the roads in those days, it was not a straight shot so much more than that on hors back. A lot of England is a hundred miles away from the coast. Yeah, yeah, I mean there was a lot of slavers. There's a lot of There were actually ships raiding the English coast and grabbing slaves.

It slavery was totally a thing, but not that far inland. No, It's definitely, yeah, and so and so that's that's one reason to wonder about this. Uh. It was also you know, another part of his story I really didn't like is he was he had this guy who befriended him in Lisbon and really basically saved him. I mean, you know, took care of him and got him got a passage on a ship and gave him money and all. He

never said who the guy was. That's weird. Yeah, I mean, I just think it's weird, Like seventies seventy is pretty old for this time to be enslaved. Just like for humans, material you're not a good thing. You mean, you could catch sick and die immediately at the drop of a hat. Why would anybody invest any money in somebody at that age? Yeah, I know, so the whole idea for that is, the whole idea is like ludicrous, and a lot of people

at that time felt the same way. But you know, he had to invent something though, because supposing he did to scan with the red money and want to shack up with his girlfriend a few counties over, uh, he would have had a lot to answer for because three people had been killed over this whole deal. So he had to come up with some sort of a story. Um, And so you know, he made up a story that you know, accounted for everything. But frankly, I think he did make this story up. It can't possibly be true.

I mean, I just don't think so. I don't think that that's a possibility. Slavers coming in a hundred miles from the coastline and then stealing a man who is going to cost them more to keep alive and put on the auction block, then he's going to fetch on the auction block does not make any sense. It really doesn't.

Although there is there is one possibility that there is a possibility, and that is that William Harrison's son Edward, actually stayed the abduction because he wanted his father out of the way, because he wanted his dad's job as steward of the viccounts as is a state, because that was a nice job and he felt like he would inherit the job if if his dad disappeared. So yeah,

I don't I don't know. There's there's actually no record that he did he if he did, he didn't do it for very long, because I know there was there is a record of another steward who's started the job no later than like sixteen sixty five. Yeah, it just kind of seems like the Viscountess would be like, but I don't know, this is another guy I trust Yeah, it could be. Wouldn't just be like, oh, yes, the

son of course he will do it. Yeah, the sun does not necessarily, particularly if if he got murdered or disappeared in some weird circumstance, right, and then the sound the sound of course not being totally heartless, he doesn't want his dad killed, so he just has these guys have ducked to him and sell him into slavery and stuff. He doesn't kill people at all to get dead out of the way. Totally healthy experience. Actually, actually, especially a seven years old, he was lucky he didn't die on

the ship. Yeah, if he was actually, if he was actually on a ship, if he was actually on a ship, because I mean a lot of people didn't survive sea voyages. Frankly at seventy, kind of shocked he survived walking to a different town all the time. And saying, to be clear, I'm not saying seventy now is insanely old. My parents are almost seventy. I'm sorry mom and dad for telling everybody that, But there, I mean, seventy is like nothing four hundred years ago. Seventy was kind of like it

was incredibly old back in those days. Yeah, I mean most people died about what age thirty five. I'm sure we're going to get a lot of emails where people are like, it wasn't that old. Calm down, But it was calmed down. I think the median age was forty five to fifty was about the average length that you could expect to live and die normally, you know, barring any accidents or diseases or whatnot. Yeah, he was, he

was well outside of the bell curve. Yeah. Yeah, and he actually he didn't die until sixteen seventy two, so he lived to be eighty two years old. He was even farther off of the Builker. This is why you don't great on the Bilker, because guys like this throw it off. So the theory is that his son arranges his abduction so he can take his job, which which would actually okay, so that makes sense of this whole

thing you're saying. Why would they take this guy how to twenty miles inland and take them all the way to the coast. Well, it was a special order. Yeah, and so that was yeah, I know, special order. But I'm sorry I have to pause for a second. Did you say it's bunk terrific. Yes, sorry, yeah it is. Yeah. The only problem I have with this series it would

have been really expensive to arrange this whole thing. Yes, this co conspirators, the three guys on horseback to name it just three would never blabbed, which is really helpful, especially after this. This actual story actually got a fair amount of circulation. It was a big story. I mean, yeah, I was gonna say if they were slavers that kind of were in the coast or even like in the Mediterranean most of the time, if I were hiring someone to abduct one of you guys, for instance, it would

not be somebody who lives locally. So, by the way, let me give you my new address. It's totally different than my old address. I don't believe you try to hire somebody out. Maybe I'll just give him both of them the tunnel under my house. That's where I'm living now, Okay, nice safe place to live. I don't blame you. I'm gonna get me one of them. Yeah, oh where where

we Oh? Yeah, Edward Harrison had his father affected. The problem I have with this serious It would have been so much easier just to poison him, you know, really, because the guy just I mean, just knock him off. As we just said, the guy was seven years old. If you poisoned him and he just keeled over and died, nobody would think. Nobody would think twice. Yeah, seriously, not at all. They wouldn't have been any question, was m Yeah, stack of chloroform or arsenic I don't know. Even then.

Apparently you can just pump it into someone's stomach and nobody cares down their throat. Alright, so you guys, what do you think do you want to do anymore on Edward? All right, let's move on. Next theory Harrison William Harrison faked his I took the rent money that he collected that day and ran off to start a new life. What do you guys would Actually, this is my theory, This is my preferred thing. Actually, it actually makes more

sense than the last three that we talked about. It actually makes more sense than all of the theories that you have in this text that we're looking at, because listen, this old man knows how much money he collects on a regular basis. He's been doing it for a long time, and he probably is sick and tired of it all.

And there have been days where I was like, you know what, if I came into a couple of thousand bucks in bonus cash, I might just walk I'm your wife, that fine cheos is that I can see a guy in this day and age to be like, oh my god, I can have four hundred pounds. I could live like a king forever on four hundred pounds, not realizing that it's only going to actually last him a year. But he's likely I've only got a couple of years to live.

I'm going to go off and do something fun. I would go back on forth, back and forth on that because it kind of feels like to me, his job is to collect taxes. He probably gets paid. I would assume that he gets paid more than the taxes are, or at least a fair wage enough to incentivize him not to steal the taxes. Right, Well, there's that whole

beheading thing. Well, I mean I think that I I don't know, I'm totally talking out of my butt right now to be totally honest with everybody, But I would just think that he would know the actual value of the money that he had. You know what I mean, where you would want your tax collector to be educated on how far four pounds actually goes, or give him be paying him an annual salary that is close enough or halfway. I know, I see that you are mad

about this. It just makes sense. It's to me, it makes sense that you would pay that person that amount of money or help them understand a little quote unquote. It is just because you don't want them taking off with it. Joe, I have a question. Was this his only duty? No? Actually, as stewart, he had all kinds of other duties, and so I don't know why he was just being the regular. So this was not the

sole thing that he would do. So therefore, I don't believe that he would have been educated in that financial background that you're you're implying there. I think that it was a position that he had earned the trust of his employer enough to be given it. I mean, really, all you need for that job is to prove that you don't steal. Can you read? Can you know how much is written on the ledger that they owe? And can you come back with it to this single pence? Yes?

Job done? How long? But how long had he been doing this for? Probably a long time? Yeah, Well I don't know, Yeah, I mean, he's been doing the job I understand he's been doing for decades. Yeah. And by the way, his job was not just tax collector. He was managing the estate. He had a managerial job. So that's my thing is that if it's a managerial a middle manager, and if we all, if we know anything, middle managers get bored. It's just always want to take

it and run. I just think it's like a weird time and he should have known that four pounds isn't going to get him. Well, actually, it's not a weird timing. It's a perfect timing because here's the thing. For the last what eleven twelve years, the crown has been in turmoil. Nobody knows what's gonna go on on and oh look now they brought back Charles the Second and it's all

gonna be p g Keene. Except that's what they said when the last guy came on, and look what a crap show that turned into you know what, I'm out of here. I mean, listen, you know as well as I do that about a year ago when an election happened and all those people said that's it. We're we're gonna be expatriots, We're gonna leave the country. We're gonna live on our money in some other place because it's gonna be way better. And then they didn't do it.

But this guy may have had the same thought of, you know what, it's just gonna be one more of the same with a new paint job, and I've seen it before and I am out before it all burns down. I believe that Harrison was a royalist, so he was like, um so something. In other words, his side one, yeah, and that's what he is. But he may have been like he may not have thought that Charles the second was the man for the job. Maybe he thought he

wouldn't last. But but here's where the restoration Actually my factor into this is that and nobody actually knows the answer to this, and that is that all these all these these people with these lands that they were collecting rent when the Commonwealth went in and then protector essentially because the whole royalty thing kind of just went a way. Uh, they no longer were able to collect rents on their

lands extended period. And so one of the questions here is when it's time to go out and collect the rent? Uh do these people ohe back rent for all those years. Yeah, and so is that the case, And so in that case that he could have been yes, he would take all that he could have actually hauled, had quite a bit of money. And of course the problem with that is if you collected that amount of money, and he would never dare to show his face back in Camden

ever again, unless unless he well, I guess that's true. Yeah, I was gonna say, well, unless he knew that these people had been murdered, had been not murdered, but had been executed for his murder. But I guess it really makes more sense if they had been executed for his robbery, and he could come back and say I was so, I was robbed and I was so scared and I ran away. I played dead. I played dead. They thought they killed but it too me in a cesspool. But

then after they left, I climbed back out. I got better. I want to friends. Yeah, okay, so you're right, Yeah I agree, and it's but this is this is my favorite of the one. But again we don't know it. Probably realistically speaking, even if obviously they would have loved to have collected all of that back run, realistically speaking, they couldn't. They could not have held him accountable for ten or twelve years or worth of back rent. You were talking like one of the monarchy was abolished in

sixteen forty nine. That's know that that would bankrupt the entire country. They knew they couldn't go that just they couldn't gouge too hard. But you know, maybe just the regular hall from rents was it would have been enough to tempt him into leaving. I don't know, or I just don't know. Um, you know. And and of course the other thing about it is that you know, he had to have heard what happened in his absence. I mean, three people get executed for you being gone, I don't know.

I don't know. He would have had to probably. I think this was very slow when there is no electronic communication. I just think it would have taken a lot of moxie, a lot of chefs pop excuse me for him to come back, and that's three people have been killed. I suppose maybe you're right, maybe he didn't know that three people have been executed. Yeah, I mean yeah, I really feel like he sauntered into town like, hey I'm back, everybody, I got this great story. People were oh hell um

um um, and then it happened to it was the worst. Yeah, and then I'm going to add the details and later. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, I gonna go see my wife, who's gonna mysteriously hang herself. Maybe that's why his wife hung herself. She didn't he killed her. I mean it's possible, Yeah, it could have been. So anyway, this is, as I say, so far, my favorite theory. But it's got its issues too. Yeah. But again that's why they call this the wonder. There is

no clear wondering. We should just called this podcast asked the wonder. Yeah, there's a wonder thing out there that's already sort of taking it. We've been I wonder. It sounds a little too now familiar. Yeah yeah, screw that all right. Series here shall be called Thinking Sideways. Yeah, well, we got another series or two here, so let's get on this one. Was that it's been hypothesized by historians

and and responsible people, not just your tinto types. But yeah, exactly, it's been hypothesized that he was perhaps on some sort of a secret mission, and like, for example, one would be well, his employers the so so the Viscountess Camden knows Julianna Noel her her sons or Baptist noell Uh that was his name was bast Yeah, I know, I know, weird Baptiste. No, probably Baptist bad Spanish, it's terrible name, but maybe name in them that Spish. Anyway, it was Boptist.

But any way, Baptist was known to be a party boy who apparently fathered a bunch of illegitimate children. So the thinking along this lane goes maybe, because as I said, the restoration happened, these people, a lot of their lands were sequestered, they had no income, a lot of their wealth was taken from them because of their associations with

with the monarchy. And so if he had all these illegitimate children floating around out there and across Europe, um, he wasn't able to get him any money in the instruments. So now finally the restoration happens, his lands are restored, he's got his wealth back. Now suddenly he's in a position to help out his kids. So the thinking is that he may be sent Harrison on a mission to to actually take money to his two children ex girlfriends. Whatever one, Why Harrison and to where did the money

suddenly appear from? This is all a good question. I don't know. This is, like I said, just a theory. I again, why Harrison, why do you choose a seven year old guy? One reason, of course, would be trustworthy. He was trustworthy, you know, he was a solid guy. One of the problems I have with this as far as him being essentially a money carrier, why did it take him two whole years to do this? Number one? Uh?

Number two? Why didn't anybody, knowing that he was just out of town it was going to be back, why didn't anybody intervene to stop three people from getting hanged? Well, I guess I can kind of answer that, maybe because you know, they didn't care. Well, no, I think it's possible that the Perrys were kind of yeah, I mean they could have been stealing and trashing things and getting drunks of the English country. I mean, they could have been people that the Viscountess was like, I don't care,

they don't contribute anything. They're kind of like, you know, beating up all of my all of the people who live in my area. They're stealing from trouble my employee. Yeah, basically just makers and you know what, it's probably better if they're gone anyway, Yeah, snuff that line out right there and there. I mean, I'm not saying that's like a good reason, but it's as well. Actually, if you think about it, you don't rule if he left and he was not expected to come back, but he had

to leave in his super secret mission. Maybe his wife was eventually going to go join and wherever he was, then it totally makes sense actually to let three people get executed, because that that puts an end of the whole thing. Yeah, he disappeared, but all speculation is done, and he was murdered, three people were killed, all questioning is done, so that kind of makes sense. But again, what was his super secret mission? We don't know. Then it's hard to say. I mean, there could actually be

progress on this. There are people actually all the time going through ancient libraries and old manuscripts, and you never know, somebody might stumble across a little more information one of these things. It could happen. Uh. And but on the theory or our last theory here this is this does actually kind of a possible theory too, which is that the whole story is complete BS that's never had fabrication, it's completely a fabrication. Yeah, totally possible. Well I don't

think so. I mean, yeah, I mean it is possible. But somebody had to go back and really fake some records and really well because they were accounts. Like one of the justices of the piece, what's his name, Jen Overbury wrote an accounted this about ten years after it

happened and published it, and that's still around, is still available. Um, some other documents of surfaced, of course, the letter that Harrison wrote that still exists, the one that he wrote to explain where he'd been gone for for two years,

that's still around as far as I know. And then somebody just in this century I think, found some some court records discussing the trial of the Berries for the murder of William Harrison and named them all Joan, Richard, and John and they were all sentenced to be hanged for the murder of William Harrison. So here's the one. Here's the one thing that just screws this theory, or actually backs this theory up and screws up your belief

that it's real. Those names are super duper common. Yeah, William, it's crap. Harrison, Williamson, will Harrison, William, William Harrison, very very common name. Perry is not an uncommon name. Jones not uncommon, I mean John, I mean it's it's These are all common names. So it is entirely possible that

the Perry's killed Harrison, but not the Harrison. Right, So these things are happening in the area, and then it's kind of conflagration of stuff, and then it all just kind of merges in the historical record because we don't know because it's crappy record keeping well, and actually back to the back of the starting of those days, they

were starting to keep better records. And this is also in a time of turmoil win the anarchy is coming back and there is administrative turnover maybe, but but I mean again that one of the things that settles it for me, though, is is that Overbury wrote this his account to this whole thing, and he was privy to the the facts of the whole case, and he wrote the account of it. And so unless he was totally b s us he was an aspiring sci fi writer,

maybe that's what it was. And he was, as far as I know, a respectable man who would and don't forget doing stuff like like writing sci fi. Probably back in the seventeenth century was not considered respectable at all. So I think that I think it happened. Yeah, I think it happened, But I think that's big news. I really think that this whole thing boils down to he took off and spun a bs tale when he ran out of money, and it was running away from from debt.

I think that he got himself into either gambling debts or just credit debt because look, I've got all these hundreds of pounds, lend me money. I really think that he just he ran away and spent faster than he expected to come back. Oh it's a good thing. I gave them this different name I gotta go, Yeah, and didn't know where else it goes. So he went home. Well and maybe, uh, he took a big chance, I think. But you know, I think maybe one of the reasons

it worked out for him. And I don't think he got his whole job back as far as I got it. But if he did, their their very gold. Yeah, but maybe the local the local law and everything like that. Maybe they were all kind of like, you know, let's just sweep the sound of the rug and forget about it, because otherwise it kind of makes us look bad. Yeah, I didn't think that. One of the I think that this case was sort of the basis for for what was a long tradition in English law, which is that basically,

if you don't have a body, you don't have a murder. Yeah, that's what I think. This was the genesis of that whole idea. Is that, you know, because never in other cases. There was a case in American history, like back in the nineteenth century where the guy was hung for killing some guy and then some years later the guy comes back to town and say, what's up. But what's up, dudes? And oh, we thought you were dead. We killed ted over there over it. H We'll see yeah, d bag anyway.

But I mean, yeah, I know English law has for many many years had the nobody no hanging rule. But yeah, they've gotten away from that apparently. Well you might still be able to convict people, but yeah, you probably still thinking the bridge don't kill anybody. I don't think they execute anybody. But they also run on the shortest prison sentence. Oh you you clubbed an old lady near to death, gould be three weeks in jail. Yeah, they did kind of.

I mean, it's like there's only a couple of people in the whole country that are actually seriously in prison for life, Jeremy Bamber, Jeremy Bamber being one of them. Yeah, he's He's one of just a few. And that's it, I mean, just a couple really. Yeah, that's why they have a high crime rate over there. The Queen's Corgis. Yeah, because they hittled on the carpet. Yeah, well tied the room together. Alright. So, um, so you guys have any other theories here, other idea? What the hell I think

you just ran away? Yeah he probably did. Yeah, it's still a weird little story. Yeah, it's still weird. It's still weird, but especially that that that added little twist of three dead people. See. Yeah, anyway, Yeah, if we have any British listeners out there that are fans of the story and have any any input, we have an

email account. Believe we finally got an email account. I thought you were going to stop it if we have any British listeners and I was going to say, you know, we do, Yeah, of course we do, but we do have an email I'm sorry, we do. It is it's one of them fancy Gmail accounts. Don't you wish you had one? But Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com send us an email. What else we are on social media?

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but it makes you feel good. Whatever makes you feel good, all right, Okay, I guess that's it until next week. I leave it there to your lair or something. Hey, guys, so I gotta go to our bank account and then I swear I'll be back for recording next week. We'll see in two years, right, dude, I promise not to kill anybody, ow