Thinking Sideways: Atlantis

How this happened? I don't know. It just happens every long time up and here it was. I think someone's been drugging us. Actually really weird. Yeah, this is kind of like mnesty. We're just there. We're trapped on the space station. We're forced to solve another crappy mystery every year. Explains my fear of space. Yeah, okay, let's talk about a mystery. This is one that you've heard of. I'm pretty sure this is brought to the world by Plato.

Remember Plato, the Greek philosopher or not not the silly Yeah yeah, yeah, I know that one. Yeah yeah yeah, student of Socrates. So I'm sorry, I saw accident. I know crazy, it's so great. So's your buddy. Yeah, it's a good movie. Come on, man, Yeah, you know what. I didn't want to see that movie. I kind of love expectations, but actually it was really good. That's a good movie. Okay. Anyway, back to our thing, uh Plato, yes, uh.

And the story came out in two of his dialogues with The first was to Mas, in which Plato told the story that had been handed down as the family tree from his great great great great grandfather Slim, who was an elder statesman in Greece. It had been handed down to Plato, had been handed down to Toms and the story it was handed down to somebody else. Yes, and the story. But you know, I think Plato itself himself heard the story. Oh that's right. Is the name

of the thing, not the name of Sorry. Sorry. So Tomatoes is a dialogue between Socrates and a guy named Critias, but it's of course written by Plato, and Socrates asked Critias for a good story, So he tells the story of Salon's trip to Egypt two years before, because supposedly Critius heard it from his grandfather who had got who had had it passed down from his father who got it from Solon. But anyway, in Plato's words, Salon was the wisest of the seven stages um. He was obviously

highly respected ancestor and all around great guy. But long before Plato was born, Salon traveled to Egypt and met with the priests in the city of Sais, and they told him the story of Atlantis. So that's our story this week. Atlantis due. So we're going to figure out if who really lived there was an aquaman or a sub mariner, which one was real and which one got ripped off by the other comic book line. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, we will talk about that. Yeah, sweet,

they will stole it from Donovan. Does either of you know how to pronounce the submariner's name. It's an A M O R and I never is it nam or. I can never name more. I always thought nay more. But there's nothing in there to make it an a other than the letter as going to say, other than the letter A. Sorry, I took us off track right away, Sorry,

immediately immediately. It's what I'm good for. Yeah. The only thing manual labor back to our story that the reason the subject came up is Salon had asked the priests about antiquity and if they knew any ancient or history and what they already knew were in Greece and what I've said. I'm not going to quote them, but essentially the priests said that the Greeks are never anything but

children and there's never an old man among you. And Salon was asked him what he meant, and the priest said, essentially, people have no history to speak of because you're always

being wiped out by natural disasters. Yeah. So there would be, you know, maybe an earthquake and then a heat tsunami, and that would just wipe out everybody in the towns and the only people that would survive were the shepherds and then the hicks up in the hills who didn't know how to read or write, and so the civilization was essentially wiped out and go back to the Dark Ages and back to the Dark Ages. Yeah, and Greece did go through a Dark Age prior to at least

one yeah, at least one. Yeah. Anyway, back to Atlantis. This supposedly happened nine thousand years before Solon's visit to Egypt, although there's some dispute about the nine thousand years and there's there are plausible theories that there could have been

a transcription era. We you're talking nine thousand years what happened nine thousand years also solids what visit would have been about what sixth century BC, around sixth century BC, I think, And then it would have been nine thousand years before that years BC is when the is the story that they're talking about happening. Is Yeah, what the whole Atlantis thing happened? Okay? So okay, because that that wasn't exactly clear, so I just making sure I understood

that part. Yeah, and uh, but of course, like I said, it could have been possibly nine hundred years, which makes it about somebody missed a decimal point. Somebody put it at an extra zero there. Yeah, And there was a Greek Dark Age is from which no written records exist, and I think written Greek immerged again with the Iliad and the Odyssey, which we're written. It's believed in the

seventh of the eighth century BC, and we don't know. Well, that's the hard part with that is that we don't know exactly when they started writing versus the things that we found. That's always the difficulty with things like written languages. They may have been doing it for a hundred years, but on things that crumbled, Yeah, and so we can't

place it. Yeah, it's yeah, but you know, I mean typically in times of what these people do is they will cast stuff in clay also, and those things are usually more survivable than than papyrus or whatever they were using, not if they gets washed away to see though, that's a good point. Yeah, they might be h I mean, who knows, you know what I mean, there might be all kinds of stuff down there under the water. Yeah, yeah, or it gets crushed up. I mean yeah, that's how

sand gets made, right wave action. Yeah, maybe your beach may actually just be like old crushed up stories. It could be. I'm never going to the beach again. Ruined it for me. This claim that there have been a previous form of written Greek, which is what the priests are saying, was news obviously to Solon, and also claim that there have been a previous Greek civilization was also

kind of kind of news to him. It turns out the Egyptians at that time at least had better records on Greek history than the Greeks had themselves, because they weren't getting wiped out. They weren't getting wiped out. Yeah, And they also had a high regard for the Athenians. They decided to tell Solon the story of the greatest thing that Athens had ever done. And this was pretty

dark ages obviously, uh. And so the great thing was is way back in the day again, either at hunter BC or FIFTC, civilizations of the eastern Mediterranean came into attack by a mysterious see people and so that was Athens in Egypt, among others were essentially and see people were trying to conquer them and enslave them. And apparently

they already controlled the western Mediterranean they see people. Uh, and these invading armies one of the control of the kings of Atlantis, and which the Egyptians described as a great island located outside the Pillars of Heracles or depending apparently Greek should be Gibraltar, right, yeah, yeah, the Pillars of Heracles. They most likely was Gibraltar, but we don't

really know a hundred percent for sure about that. And also it's possible, depending on because of language and everything like that, it's possible that it was just inside I mean, typically it's said to be outside the Straits of Gibraltar. Yeah, but it could have been inside And also, as I said, there's there's other places that are nominees for the pillars of Heracles also, so maybe it wasn't even Gibraltar. Yeah, it's according to the writings, it kind of moved around

a lot. Yeah it did, ye, which is weird. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like the designation of pillars of Heracles was just whatever the limits of you know, navigation words, however far you could get. We've reached the pillars, pillars. We can't go past the pillars past those. Yeah. Hey, so I totally went by them. So we're now so they're out there somewhere that couldn't have possibly been the pillars, No pillars. Yeah, so what else do we know about Atlantis?

Let's see here, So Athens went to war and single handedly defeated Atlantis and spared everybody from the slavement, so

you know, happy ending and all that. But then afterwards there were violent earthquakes and floods in Athens, and in a single day and night, and I'll quote here from them, the Athenians sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis, in like manner, disappeared in the depths of the sea, for which reason to see in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there's a hole of mud in the way, and this is caused by the subsidence of the island. Unquote. Yeah, yeah,

so yeah, that's that's so. That's a head scratcher, there, don't I'm not sure where these shoals of mud were. Maybe they've gotten washed away since I don't know. It's been a long time. It's been over a thousand years, several thousand years, if it's true. Yeah, it's been a long time. And I should note that after Critius tells his tale of Atlantis, Plato, putting words in Socrates mount was so great, smounce, excuse me, I sharees the reader that the story is true. Yeah, and and and so

that was the tom Us. Next the next dialog ory Matches is the Critias, where he again recounts the story told the Egyptians or by the Egyptians to Solon, but this time Curtius talks about Athens in Atlantis and a lot of greater detail. So prior to the great disaster that wiped out Greek civilization, the Acropolis and Athens, you know that place where and all that. Yeah, yeah, that big old hill. It was larger, but apparently a single night of earthquakes and inundation washed away a lot of it.

And prior to that disaster, the warrior class of Athens lived off by themselves on the north side of the hill, where they had dwellings, dining halls and stuff like that. There was a fountain or a spring which supplied all their needs for water, but that earthquake choked it off

and it was no more filled up with debris. Yeah. Yeah, I'm leaving out a lot of detail here, but you can all go read the critius also if you're interested totally on the international Yeah, yeah, but do remember the spring, Remember that spring? Remember it. That's a brief description of Athens way back in the day prehistory of pre dark ages, and that's in the Yeah, and then description of Atlantis is very detailed. Yeah, and in fact it's so detailed

I'm gonna leave a lot of it out. But you you, luckily for us, you formatted this in some bullet points, so it's easy to digest. Yeah, there's there's a little bit, little nuggets of information. Yeah, so what do we know? What we know about Atlantis is it was created by Poseidon, that's the god decided. Yeah, and he created it for he's falling in love with this woman in Clito, and so he wanted to make a special island where she could be kind of isolated so other guys couldn't because

he was jealous. Yeah, exactly. Well he was a Greek god. I mean they always were. They were very jealous, Yeah, they were. Yeah, So he creates this island. The island was about five states across. The state is uh, it varies. It generally is named after stadium and so it's the length of a stadium, and stadiums, of course varied in sizes, and so a state could be five feet, six feet, seven hundred feet about. So I picked the average, which is about six feet so that's yeah around there. Yeah.

And then he so he cut one circular channel which was which filled with water. Uh. And then and that's that was one statewide. Is this radiating from the center of the island. Is that where you're Is that where all of these numbers come from? As we start in the center of an island and then go out a state and then there's a ring cut. Yeah, Okay, picture it wasn't working. Yeah, it's like a target. It's a

bulls eye. So the islands in the middle, and that's five hundred states or five states, okay, and then it's surrounded by a ring of water. This one stayed one. And then that ring of water isn't turned surrounded by a ring of land that's two states wide, which is surrounded by a ring of water that is two states wide, which is surrounded by Yeah. I know, it's confusing. It it's so much easier to just look at a diagram

of it. Uh. And the third the third ring is three states and three states, and the outer ring of water is three states wide. And then yeah, and then beyond that, Yeah, there was a wall. Um, let's see the wall surrounded the entire thing, also circular about six miles out from the outermost ring of water, which I did a little math, and if the wall really did completely encircle the city, that would be forty seven miles long. It's a long wall. Yeah. Uh, you know, I mean

the ancient Greeks were good with stone work. They could build walls fast, so maybe you know, it could be. Of course, these aren't the Greeks. What am I saying? Yeah, but people back in those days that was stone easily. And then a channel was cut through the rings and out to the sea, so they were all connected. They were all connected to the sea, so channel. Yeah, so apparently Atlantis was s sea level. That kind of makes sense, right, uh. Yeah.

And then between the outer wall, between the outer water ring and the wall, that was a commercial section of the city, apparently densely populated. And then um bridges were built over the channels so that, you know, if you were on one of those rings of land and you're on one side of the channel, you want to get to the other side, you don't just go all the way around, if you just go over the bridge. That's what bridges are. Four. Yeah, I know, So that was

that was convenient. And then on the central island, the kings of Atlantis built a huge palace for themselves and also a temple Poseidon and Clito and the grove of Poseidon, which was also apparently really cool and had lots of nimpty trees. It also had hot and cold springs and stole by Poseidon because he was a plumber. Yeah, I guess so, yeah, uh. And then most of the buildings were and walls and everything were built of a stone that was red, white, and black. So that's a detail

you you need to remember. Can I ask a question about that? So I never I never really got a clear impression of this. Is it there were red stones, there were white stones, and there were black stones, or is it more kind of like granite where it's modeled from red's too blacks to white? You know, I've never seen a picture of this legendary rock, but I'm in

the descriptions. You know. Sometimes people were like, it was it was this, this and this, or it was this, that and this, and I never really found out a whole lot of about the rocks. Yeah, it's all three colors, by understand, it's all three colors in one rocky, so

it's multi colored. Yeah. Adjacent to the city there was an oblong playing that was two thousand by three thousand states, which is two hundred thirty by three forty miles for those those of you were you lit mired in the old fashioned meter system's three hundred seventy by five fifty kilometers. There was a channel cut all the way around the plane for irrigation, which was criss crossed by other channels that were spaced a hundred states apart, and then um

to the north. There were huge mountains. Water would flow out of the mountains and flow into those irrigation channels and so, yeah, good for agriculture and just a few other things things about Atlantis. It had large deposits of ur a calcum. I think that's how that's pronounced, yeah, I which is described as a metal more precious than

anything but gold. But nobody knows what it is. There they have been besides Plato, there have been some other places nature manuscripts where they found mention of this metal. But nobody knows precisely what it is. Yeah, it could be it could be it could be copper too, I don't know, but it could be a lot of things. Yeah. Last of all, give a brief mention to the elephants. Yes, there were elephants in Atlantis and so, but I don't

want to talk about that too much. I know that the description sometimes it's a little hard to follow, but there are drawings illustrations based off of this. Totally check them out. It makes a lot of sense once you look at that. But the bull's eye is essentially what the whole thing was. Yeah, a dark, giant dartboard. Yeah, just a big old god's dartboard, and eventually it became one. Yeah, great, mass was less anyway, if you if you are interested

in reading more details, the Critious is actually online. You can just do a Google and you'll find it out there. So yeah, yeah, so I've mentioned Yeah, all of these I mean, all of these historic works are yeah pretty much. Yeah,

which is awesome. Yeah. Uh, the life in Atlantis was pretty good for a long time because you know, there were these people were kind of descended from the gods because besides Mate it with his his woman and they had like tens five sets of twins and who became kings of Atlantis, you know, and so these people were all sort of had god blood in them and everything. But then you know, the story goes generation after generation

that blood gets stand out a little bit more. But didn't they also I swear I remembered something about they kept subdividing the island for the next generation to have their own to own. Is that correct? Yeah, So the next generation from those five sets of twins got parts of the island and it just sort of cut overpopulated. Yeah, that's why they had to take to see and go

out cocker of the land. That as his typical in these stories, the Atlantans lost their way, became more consumed with greed and lust for power and ye you know, yeah, and were warlike, and Zeus decided they needed to be punished so that they could see the errors of their ways. What Us decided people needed to be punished. He never does that. Never right now? Uh so we're still in the Critius. He calls all the guys together for a

comfab Just as he was about to speak, the story ends. Yeah, the last sentence read and all reads, and I will quote. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows, unquote, not even not even a period. That's the first cliffhanger, right, there is a cliffhanger. Yeah, I don't know some pages got lost, or if Plato died, or if you got arrested. I'm not sure Plato invented the cliffhanger. That was it. Yeah, he was doing an intentional thing. Yeah, he invented the cave,

didn't he. Yeah, that was the cave. Did you did you read the Republic? Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm I'm mostly making fun of things. Yeah, the cave well that's a mystery, but we'll tackle that another time. So that's that's the whole thing, I mean, the mystery of Atlantis. Was it true? So it's kind of an either or kind of thing, yes or no? Yeah, yes or no? It is a true or not. What do you guys think? There are people out to say Plato made it all up. It wouldn't be the first time he invented some sort of

a Yeah. I think it's an allegory. Yeah. Though the problem with this is an allegory is it's kind of hard. It's not really clear what points he's trying to make with this story. Well the point the point comes after and when he called them all together he spake as follows, that's the I mean, the next part of that, right, that's when it brings it all together, and you go, oh, yeah, that's what the allegory was all about. He's never finished it.

It was the seventeen book in the Wheel of Time series that tied it all together, but it never got written. Yeah it did. Yeah, yeah, I know, but no, I it's it's I personally feel like it's got to be an allegory and he was just drawing on references that he knew. I mean, he did things like that in the past. Yeah, yeah, you've done. Like I said, there's a cave in the Republic. But when he wrote, when he told the story of the cave, it's he makes it very clear that this is not real. It makes

it very very clear. That's a it's an analogy and um, and it is to illustrate a very very basic point about philosophy and reality and the way ordinary people who are not philosophers see the world compared to how philosophers see the world. So, yeah, that's what spoilers. Philosophers are

better in every way. Yeah, exactly. Here's but here's the thing is that when we think of the writings of really famous people that are considered to be master works, we never see or very rarely see the contemporary critique that they received when they first put it out there. You don't see that they were getting heckled and everybody was like, you shouldn't have done this, that was so terrible. And it's not till a hundred or a thousand years later people like, oh my gosh, this is really great.

And the critiques, which were mostly verbal, never got recorded, so it could very well be that when he did this, I'm making this up. I'm telling you now, I made this up. Everybody was like, that was so dumb. That was the worst part of that story. Why did you do that? So he's like, okay, I we'll do it again. It's totally real this time. Okay, I mean it's possible. Yeah, well, definitely,

I would. I would have to agree that he had to have he or somebody had to have embellish the story just a little bit because the idea of these uh this island surrounded by these canals and everything like that. I mean they were huge, and so obviously it would have had to have been some sort of a natural formation because we didn't have our Poseidon men couldn't have dug that aliens could have. Aliens could possible. Yeah, good point.

It could be an alien charging station. We didn't know. Yeah, it could have actually just been like, yeah, the landing spot, the outline is the outline of the spaceship. We figured it out, guys, Yeah, we can finish okay. Yeah. But yeah, And if there was one detail that that Plato made up, it was probably the rings because he loves circles. He was in geometry and all that stuff, and he likes circles a lot, so well, the other the other possibility

is that he didn't make it up. Yeah, and frankly like, if he didn't make it up, then what happened to Atlantis? Right? Or is it? That's the next question? Right, is the next question. We'll talk about that in a minute. Okay, Yeah, Well, here's here's what I think is evidence that he didn't make it up, that it was the truth. Yeah, okay, the truth, at least partially the truth, well based in truth. Yeah. Remember the spring on the Acropolis that was Yeah, that

didn't exist in Plato's day. Well, okay, so how does that prove Well, yeah, because an archaelogical expedition uncovered that same spring in the nineteen thirties. Oh so it did exist at one time, but not when Plato was around. Yeah, it existed. It existed many many years before. And then and then they went into the Dark Ages, all writing was lost. And then and then solom goes to Egypt and the Egyptians tell him about the spring that existed

that nobody knew that existed. Then is it actually documented that the spring didn't exist when Plato was writing? As far as I know, that it was it was found in the nineteen thirties, Okay, and there was there was not a spring there. Well, I think what Devon's getting at was there was there mentions of it another writing. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, I guess the question is, like, you know, it would be pretty easy for him to say, oh yeah, and then this spring got covered up even though it was still there, and then it got covered up in the introim and then it was rediscovered. Oh yeah, I don't think it was still there because the way he told that, the way he told the story is

there was a spring, but it was choked off. And I guess he's telling people in Athens and they would they would probably go they'd be like, wait, no, no, no, that springs there. What we're talking? Yeah, but this story is totally true. Yeah, okay, Yeah, good point. Okay, So that's interesting. That's a detail of the Egyptians told Salon that he and have known himself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

The thing about it is is there could have been even after the win at the Dark Ages, there could have been stories that were passed down from generation to generation even without writing. Yeah, but if you're gonna tell the story, you've gotta tell the story of like you know, like the guts and glory and stuff like that. You're not going to talk about the spring on top of the acropolis. Probably old men sit around and just talk

about stuff over and over. You might, Yeah, especially if you were a part of the warrior class and you had lived over there, and you're sitting there and see, man, you remember how great it was when we had that spring that was so sweet, that was high living gener Remember that story Grandpa used to tell about spring. That was the most boring story ever. Yeah, I think I think the warrior class all got wiped out. It was all It was all the sheep, sheep orders up in

the hills who survived. Another another clue, A lot of clay tablets have been found in Greek ruins that were described with a secure non Greek language. It turns out though that it's uh these day, back to before the Greek Dark Ages, and the language has been named linear B and appear. It appears that that is an earlier form of written Greek. So there's linear A and linear B, which one has been deciphered. I want to say it's A, but I'm not sure. I love they had both been deciphered,

and they weren't. No, I think only one of them have been deciphered in there there. I can't remember their ones. They're both related to each other. It's been a long time since I've read about linear and A and BI. Last time I read about it was what was that The Codebreaker? Remember that book? Ye? Yeah, that was the last time I read about linear A and B. Linear B has been deciphered. Okay, so it's A that has not. I can it's not important to the story. Just suddenly

couldn't remember that. I know, it's hard to keep track of that stuff, but uh so this is another interesting detail. This stuff was buried, you know, long long ago in ancient ancient ruins, and there was no way that Plato knew that there have been a previous form of written Greek, and yet the Egyptians knew. So that's another interesting clue. And another thing is the story itself at the ending. It's kind of a down to ending because Atlantis gets there.

There's just come up in the story, which is the way these things are Athens. Athens gets it too. Yeah, although I guess that that does lead a lot of credence to the fact that it was real, because natural disaster is like a huge earthquake or tsunami or something like that. You know, if it's a sea people that's coming, it's likely that if it's an earthquake that big, it would probably destroy other places like Athens. Right, so that's

but maybe not Egypt because it's too far away. Yeah, yeah, different. Yeah. I think that when you're telling telling a parable and you're trying to illustrate a point, than you know, you want to have the good guys live happily ever after. Yeah, unless the point is it doesn't matter what you do. If you engage in war, you're screwed. Yeah. Maybe he was making and maybe he was making the point that life is random, and you know, even if you try to do good, you're gonna get smitten by the gods

or smited by the gods. I like smitten smitten. Yeah, yeah, I'd rather have to get smitten with me smiting me. The chances are pretty good that was made. Yeah. Yeah, any gods out there listening, Yeah dude. Uh well. My last point is that the story has playto's ancestors Solon relating this information and also Socrates assures the reader that the story is true. And Socrates, of course, as we as we know, is Plato's mentor, highly respected by Plato.

And I wouldn't it be kind of disrespectful to Salon and Socrates. Socrates, excuse me, you have to put lies in their mouths. So for a little expert on this issue, we're going to talk to Mark Adams. And I'm sure all you heard of Mark, but for a few of you that haven't, he's written a book called Meet Me in Atlantis, which came out a year to ago. I'm not sure when it came out about a year ago, yeah, yeah, which is a really good source if you want to

learn more about Atlantis, because I mean, obviously who doesn't. Yeah, and he goes into it a lot more details, So if you're interested in that, I would like to point out before we talk to Mark that he is actually a nonfiction writer. He used to work for Outside magazine. It's written another book called Turned Right at Rochu Picchu, Yeah, which I just finished. Good book. But he's a nonfiction writer. He's not a crank. He's he's very skeptical of all

this stuff. But it really it was great to talk to him. Yeah, no, well, yeah, Yeah, so asked the question of whether it would be disrespectful to uh, to Salon and to Socrates. Uh. We put that question to Mark Adams. You know it might have been. But again, you know, um, I don't want to go back into my like post structuralist terminology that drove me out of grad school in the early night. But you know, he's

using a series of masks here. You know, he's he could be hiding behind Socrates to say something that he wants to uh, you know, play with. So we you know, we can't know whether he intended that to be real, or whether he you know, was using that as some

sort of rhetorical device or or you know whatnot. Um. So, you know, if if we knew for a fact that this was intended as a piece of written history, yes it would have been disrespectful for him to put those words in the mouth of of Socrates or into the mouth of Solon. You know. But that's that's another thing that we have to deal with here, another layer, which is that written history in three sixty b C. You know,

this is still new technology. This is you know, as far as the Greeks are concerned, this is technology that's less than a hundred years old, you know, Herodotus has has you know, the father of history has just started doing this stuff about a hundred years before, you know, writing down history rather than allowing it to be passed on orally. And when it's when history has passed on orally, it's done in the form of stories which have become myths.

You know. So now from our vantage point, we have to decode those myths and and try to pluck the truth out. And this is you know, this is a lot of what archaeologists and anthropologists do. So, you know, Plato, through the character of Socrates, wrestling with this idea, you know, is written history true or is oral history true? Things that are passed down the story is true, and I think it's in the republic Um. No, it's actually in a different work, but I can't remember which. You know.

Socrates comes out and and says, you know, look, I actually trust oral history more. I you know, trust things that are that are passed down not in writing, because you can engage with them, you can argue with them, you know, whereas written history is just sort of this lump right here and you can't you can't sort of you know, poke the holes in it. It is what it is, um, you know. So that's just one more gigantic problem sitting in the middle of the attempt to

try to solve the Atlantis story. All right, So that that's my whole thing. And then those four things, the spring, the tablets that turned out, the the written out, the written at that was lost, the unhappy ending for Athnes which makes no sense, and also the respect issue. This makes you think that probably this was a true story at least in play those eyes at least, yeah, at least that maybe so long was told that story by the Egyptians. Yeah, whether they were pulling the wall over

his eyes, well, that's possible. The thing about it is is they knew stuff that was true. Yeah, that's true, you know. Yeah, And the idea of a city disappearing is not totally crazy. There was an ancient Greek city of Heliki, which was wiped out by an earthquake and the tsunami. When you heard of those guys, Yeah, the whole thing was wound up underwater and then permanently underwater

apparently got smeared. But the between the earthquake and the tsunami, the ground under the city basically subsided and it wound up in the water. Yeah, it did sink entirely, it really did. That was Yeah, that was a city of course that was not Atlantis. But these things could happen. Although some people that have theorized that Helicky was Atlantis, but total wrong timeline, So you're not lucky that was

what three something VC. It was right around Plato's time. Yeah, yeah, And some people have suggested that this might have been an inspiration for the story of Atlantis. That that that has been suggested. Although if how like he was wiped out while Athens did not get wiped out with that particular earthquake and tsunami. So that's why it's not a great Atlantis candidate for that and other reasons. Well, that's that's again saying that, I mean, this is you're saying

that under the guise of the story is true. Is why you're saying it that way? Correct? Is that? Yeah? Okay? Yeah, because yeah, I'm just saying that it's not outrageous the idea that this city, you know, could totally be submerged. It's also entirely possible that I think we said this before. He's groat, he's picking and choosing things that happened in history and using them. Yeah. Another another place that used to be consider just be a fable. It was the

lost city of Troy that eventually was found. Yeah, it used to be thought of just made up by Homer. But it's actually there. It's in Turkey. But is it it's that's actually Troy, right, we just think it's Troy. It's pretty widely accepted, but yeah, it's not absolutely. Yeah, and actually, you know, I should point out to that archaeology is a relatively new science. Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of stuff that they probably have gotten wrong, not to not to do any of our archaeological listeners

don't know. Yeah, they know, they're they're they're making educated guesses based on information that they've deduced previously. Yeah, and so I'm sure they're getting a lot of a lot of it right, but probably not all of it. That's you know, we just gotta keep digging. So we're pretty much saying that Atlantis was real. I think that with a certain dety of fudging, fighting factory nous, little fudge factor in that you got to go to the fudge factory. Yeah,

that sounds really good. Let's just pause this take a break. Okay, we're back. You two have so much chuck on your face it's gonna emphas up for the rest of the episodes. Okay, yeah, okay, the rest of us will be a lot more high energy. Yeah. I didn't think that's mustache could get any bigger. But as my mother would say, it's like a child with a beard eating. Atlantis was probably actually not called Atlantis. It could have been called Tartessos or something else. There

was an ancient city called Tartestos. By the way, There was uh whether the story was completely accurate in all the details. I'm sure it was not. The prittest might have been missing porn about some details. And then, of course the story was passed down for two hundred years and the internet generational game of telephone, because so you know, it's there's got to be some distortions, you know added yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then there's you know, translation nuances as well. There's also that, yeah, Egyptian to Greek and all that Plato English yeah, oh yeah, the English too. Yeah. Plato might have been balish a story a bit himself. Um, you know, so he was trying to describe an ideal society and so that there were some messy little details. We might have left some of those out. Uh, and we might have stuck some stuff in there. Just the biggest point. People tend to embellish. Yeah, that doesn't it's an easy

thing to do. Yeah, we don't do it at all, but it's pretty easy to do. Yeah. Anyway, that's that's about the story. There probably really wasn't in Atlantis the story over right, Well, now we don't. Now we have to find it now that we've existed. Yeah, so this is the point where I tell you, guys, I get C six, so this is probably not the one to take on this expedition. Yeah, yeah, that's that's okay. We'll bring somebody else, Okay, Devon and me and some other guys.

Here's what I know about getting seasick. You get over it after a couple of days, you do, Okay, cool, that's good. I've never when you when you pick my stunt double, make sure he's got good hair. That's all I ask. Okay, Okay, Yeah, I tell you. It's funny when you're going to go to an ocean ocean thing, and you know you're feeling fine and there's people leaving over the side, just heaving their guts outd It's like it makes me feel good. Yeah, me too. I like

watching other people's software shout up. So where do we start looking for Atlantis? Yeah? I checked the Atlantipedia. Have you seen the atlant Have you seen the Atlantipedia? No? Yeah. This is the creation of an Irish guy named Tony O'Connell. He has a few lists of all the different places that we put forward as possible locations for Atlantis, and they're almost every place in the entire world has been

offered up. Yeah. I didn't even I didn't even count all the places that were on the list, much less check them all out. There are hundreds of them. Yeah, yeah, lots and lots of places. And by the way, I tell you, Connell is another guy who's not a crank or a crackpot. That Mark talks about him in his book, and he actually met up with him in Ireland and later on the Malta and he seems to have an

admirable bit of skepticisms. You know, he's he he understands that when somebody says Atlantis was actually in the Blue Ridge Mountains on the continental United States, he's probably not accurate, but he'll probably added, yeah, he'll he'll put it there because it's the Atlantipedia. Everything goes in there that Atlantis

related and yeah, so definitely worth checking out. Well, we'll post a link to that, or if you just want to go to Google to find the Atlantipedia, just type in atlantipedia'll come right up and boy, there's a lot of good information there there. There's several favorites that are out there, um and so one of the big clues, of course, it's the Pillars of Heracles, which the island was just inside or outside. It could have been the Straight of Gibraltar, but as we said earlier that they

seem to have kept moving. And there's like, I don't know, at least twelve thirteen places that have been put forward as possible sites for the pillars. One is the Straight of a Cina, which is between Italy and Sicily, which would mean that the Atlantic Ocean in Plato's story was actually the western Mediterranean. That wouldn't be so weird, though, would it. It's not impossible. Another another candidate the straight

of Otronto. I'm not pronouncing that correctly, I'm sure, but that's the gap between in the heel of the Italian boot and the country of Albania. And that would mean that the Atlantic was actually the Adriatic Sea, which again it wouldn't be so weird, yeah, yeah, or or something some people have said, maybe the Bosporus, which means that the Atlantic was actually the Black Sea. Well, and I know that somebodys go, well, that doesn't sound anything like

the Atlantic. Well that's because the names have changed over. Yeah, And like say the Black Sea, for example, Well, that's just a big lake, right. Well, you know, when you're standing on the edge of it looking, it looks pretty ocean like, you know, it's pretty You can't see the other side at all. And at one time wasn't at one time connected to the rest of the ocean and with the Black Sea. Yeah, is that the one I'm thinking of. It's it's it's it's it's connected now. At

one time it was not connected, that's what. Okay, it was, yeah, and it used to have a much different shoreline. Yeah. And then and then saddly that one day that the old land bridge breaks and boom they filled up with water real quick, and so they found ruins and that they found an ancient coastline down there and ruins on it and everything. Yeah, too bad for those guys. Yet no warning. At least when you'll live on a volcano, you kind of get a warning that it's gonna blow,

except for the people of Pompeii. But they just didn't pay attention, apparently apparently not Yeah, or maybe just didn't get any warning. May or maybe they got a warning and they just said, well, you know, that kind of sucks the pack and move, So we'll just hope it's just gonna rumble a little bit. And then he's been doing this for twenty years. It's fine, Yeah, one blue. So we need to do we need to pick some

places out. Actually, Mark Mark Adams picked out four places out of the hundreds, out of the hundreds, picked out four possible places. I think he picked him out. I said, we just places he wanted to travel. He never said that. Yeah, yeah, it's a good guess. Yeah. We asked, We asked Mark Adams why he picked the four spots that he did out of the possible hundreds for to go to for

his book. Well, you know, first of all, a lot of times you'll see locations for Atlantis that don't make any sense if if you you know, look at the original details. Assuming that Plato's story is real, let's start with that assumption, which is rocky to be certain. I mean, to assume the Atlantic story is real. First of all, you have to believe that a sea god named Poseidon created the the island of Atlantis. UH. So you know you're making some some pretty big leaps here to start with.

But let's assume that it's real. It's a story about a sea battle between Atlantis and Athens. So you know, for for an ancient UH navy to be able to travel to attack Athens, it doesn't really make sense that it's outside of a certain area. You know, it's not going to be crossing the Atlantic Ocean, so it's not the Bahamas, it's not coming from uh, you know, Indonesia,

as some people have said. You know, there's a guy out there with the theory that Atlantis was in the Bolivian Altiplano, which which is right two miles up hundreds of miles from the ocean. UH. And you know, I've been to the Alto UH and I gotta tell you this, it's not underwater. It is about the least underwater place you can imagine. Yeah, you know, so I I drew a you know, sort of a circle around Athens of of a certain distance. And then you know, Plato gives

clues in the story. He says, you know, it was opposite the pillars of Heracles or Hercules is it's usually called Um. It was Um, near the land called Goddies. It was an island Um. You know, it was near the Pan Pelagos or the the Infinite Sea. So you know, once you you start listing these things, you get the sense it had to be in the Mediterranean a certain

distance from Athens. And the four places that made sense to me um after a week of deliberations with Mr Tony O'Connell over in Ireland, were probably the most famous Atlantist site, the one that shows up on TV specials all the time, which is Santorini and island of Greece, Uh, the island of Malta in the center of the Mediterranean. There is a site just outside Um, the strait of

Gibraltar in southern Spain. And then there's a spot in Morocco near the city that's now called Aga dere Um, also just outside Um the Strait of Gibraltar, but to the south Um and those are the four sights that went and explored at length. So that's how Mark did it. And one of the ones the one of the places he talked about in his book. And this is the

number one favorite theory everybody seems to have. Uh doesn't necessarily mean it's scientifically all that likely, but uh, it's This is called the Minoana hypothesis, and this theory says that Atlantis was on the present day Isle of Santa Reini, or more likely on the island of Crete, which is seventy three miles south of Santa Meni, with an outpost

on Santa Meni. The island itself. The ruins of the Minowan city named Acroteria have been found on the south side of the island of Santa Reni, and so that one's a little credence to. And they're pretty impressive ruins. I don't know these they're actually if you go online, you can see pictures of them. I didn't actually ever go look at the ruins. Yeah, and it's there's, yeah, there's some pretty cool pictures of the ruins out there.

And then they're really impressive ruins, two or three story buildings and they had cobble streets and drainage systems like sewage systems and stuff. So a really sophisticated city. Yeah, yeah, t bad they built their city on the side of a volcanic island, but uh yeah, yeah absolutely. Uh the island location location, yeah yeah, so was you know, was Santa Mini Atlantis. People like it because it's a circular island and it's it's circular because the middle of it

blew out. It was a volcano and it just exploded ut Saint Helen's style. And uh, we didn't just be a little smoke in a little a little lava. Now, I just want to blew blew the majority of it away. Yeah. So and and then there's a there's a piece of it left. There's like a big crescent, and then an island out out from that crescent. And then and there's a cone in the middle that's rebuilding itself. That's volcanoes do, yeah,

as all canoes do. And so that circular thing with the with the ring of water in another island in the middle of what is one of the things that really make people like Santaini as a candidate for Atlantis. That means he would have embellished the number of rings though most likely yeah, yeah, and also changed the size of them. Uh and and yeah, and made them like a cone is much smaller. But in the original story,

the center part is the largest part. Listen, he was he was huge on Pythagoras and all of that geometry, So I mean it makes sense that he would have gone kind of kind of wild on that part. Yeah. Yeah, and he liked threes and stuff like that, you know, And so yeah, three rings and all that. But as to when this happened, that the volcano was called theory back in those days, and they're various estimates about one

at one off. Some say six seven BC, some put it at b C, and luckily was about nine hundred years before Salon visited Egypt. So um, of course, that doesn't mean that Santorini actually is Atlantis. Yeah, and it is convenient. I mean, I think that seems like one of those things where they say, oh, nine, Well, you know, the story that Salon was told was nine thousand. It's possible they just added a zero on accident that fits conveniently with our estimations. That feels really convenient to me,

do you think so? Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of convenient stuff in this story. I was gonna say, we're going to be making that statement probably, Yeah, I'm thinking that. What imagine if Sarah had exploded millions of years ago and then the central cone rebuilt itself like and like like it's happening in Mount Saint Helens and even in Santa Maria today. We built step to a fairly sizeable island. Let's still got a ring of water around it and

another ring of land, and then it goes dormant. Then time goes by, people show up and start building cities. So I mean, there could have been all kinds of like stuff going on on this island and then explode. It explodeed again, and you know that we got Atlantis. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, but the cone would have never it would have always been a mountain, right, I mean, that's how cones. We built themselves as cones, right.

So that's a problem for me. Um. I suspect the slopes would have been fairly steep, and that it seems like the views would have been awesome. But it does seem like that would be one of the things they would mention. It wouldn't be like well there was just this thing in the middle. They would say there was a mountain in the middle, and then there were rings around and let's let's let's remember though, we need to

go back to who gave us the story. The story came from one store who delivered it in a very specific way. Now, which source the Egyptians, because the Egyptians had a thing for pyramids, so they would have been like, and there was an awesome pyramid and then I'm not I'm not talking about the Egyptians at all. I mean Plato, So he could have massaged it as much as he wanted. Thing with Pythagoras, you wouldn't think that he would be like really excited that there was a triangle there. Well, yeah,

I still think he massaged to be circles. Yeah, maybe, I don't know, but that's something I didn't mention about. Acri tri Um. The city was actually not destroyed by the volcano, but it was all covered with ash, which is actually preserved it pretty well, which is cool. And they've only excavated a very small percentage of it. There's lots more ruins to be dug up. So let's hope the Greeks can get the economy back in shape, so they have some money for digging. That would be nice.

But what's interesting is what hasn't been found in the city so far, which is dead bodies. Yeah, it's it's possible that the island was evacuated before theory blew up. But if it's true, if this was if this wasn't an outpost, and it is believed that Equitia wasn't anoan city, then where would they have gone. They probably would have gone to Crete, which is where the Manoan civilization was, would try to go home. Yeah, yeah, and so that's

kind of unfortunate. So you go home and you're just sort of relaxing and saying, I'm sure glad I got away from that volcano. And then the volcano goes off. Well, I guess what, you had a major tsunami there you are on Create, and well Create gets summitted by the tsunami. Yeah, and all by the way, that tsunami would have also

would have also hit Athens. Yeah, I mean it seems like maybe that would be a reason for them to be attacking other city, right, you know, you go back to Crete and they say, no, no, we're full, We're full. You guys got to go somewhere else in your your home vacancy, right, yeah, and your home meanwhile, is experiencing these rumblings that you recognize as a precursor to something disastrous.

So you think, all right, well we ought to go find the next closest place, and where's the next closest place? Well maybe ath So you go there and they beat you off, and then suddenly you know you your situation is dire and just all gets washed away. That's yeah, No, I mean I'm not opposed to that approach to it. If it is. I still think that if if Atlantis was real, this is the my highest kid, I would

agree with that. That's Guy's good points. Yeah, I mean, of course, and I asked for this aggressive See, people's um just believe the Manans are actually pretty peaceful desperate times desperate measures. Well there's that. And also you know, it's like, I'm not convinced because if they were pretty peaceful, then that that that would make them kind of historically speaking, really huge outliers. Yeah you think, yeah, absolutely, yeah, And

so I I really don't believe that. Well, and there's also something to be said for you know, Victor's telling the story is that. You know, they say we were attacked when it's these people coming and showing up and saying help us please. Then you attack them, and then you get to write history and you get to say, oh, no, we were attacked. We had to kill them all. Yeah, we had to slaughter them. That never happened at all in history rewriting history. Yeah, not at all. You're right. Actually,

you are kind of rights not written down anywhere, You're right. Yeah. One of the one of the reasons that believe that they were peaceful is that they don't find a lot in terms of defensive construction on the island. So that's silly. Well, I think that's a silly reason to think someone's peaceful. That just means they're more aggressive, doesn't. It means they're attacking everyone around them before people around them are attacking them. But yeah, exactly. They believe the best defense is a

good offense. You know, that's that's entirely possible. Also, you're on an island, man, Yes, it's pretty easy to see people coming. You're good at seafair warfare. There's no reason to build defenses around your island. Y. Yeah, you released the cracking and it's old. You just prayed a Posidon a little bit, and he's like, God, my descendants, they're so needy. Alright, fine, the wave will send the wave again. Yeah,

I want my own cracking. The only problem with creating Santorini is, even put together, they're really kind of too small to accommodate that big plane that we were talking about that's two three create is only a hundred long. Of course, maybe if there were earthquakes, maybe parts of it subsided. Yeah, maybe there are small states or states states. Maybe there are small states. Yeah, maybe maybe maybe actually by stays even something else entirely and not six feet Yeah. Yeah.

And by the way, I said, remind me, I gotta show you some some Google areas that created some interesting structures in the water, but just south of it. Yeah, and that's probably an artifact of Google's process rather than actual reality. But interesting to take a look at it. It's kind of a head scratcher. So here this is a little off the topic. But I was messing around in Google Earth the other day looking for stuff that happened to be in the ocean. And have either of

you used Google Earth recently? Not recently, Maybe this has always happened and I ever never noticed it. But do you know that the oceans move? They do. Yeah, if you look at the satellite images, it looks like there's rolling waves going across the water. It all. If you stop somewhere, it'll go for about five or ten seconds and then it will subside. I have no idea how Google does that. The cool I've seen you it's what is what is wrong? Holy crap, The waves are moving

like it's a live picture, the coolest thing ever. Maybe Google's finally launched enough satellites. Uh no, I'm pretty sure they don't, because I was looking at some things that had obviously images from different times a day late over each other. So that's a pretty good theory. Yeah, I know. I said it's obviously a favorite for a reason. Uh it's so maybe parts of creative crumbled away or something. I don't know. Yeah, let's move on to our next one.

This is also one of the ones that Mark picked. I picked that another one that he didn't pick, So it's we're not just cough be in his book exactly. And uh so he also went to Malta and this is also a very popular one. And I can see why because Malta has the oldest known ruins in the world, some of which do appear to be underwater because because there has been a lot of seawater rise in the past twenty years. What. Yeah, true, that sounds wrong. Yeah, nothing,

that's happening. Yeah, it's true. It is flat. We're safe. Yeah, we're good. The water just runs right off the edge. Yeah. Actually, one of these days somebody to go down and pull that plug and the water will go down again. Yeah. Uh. Some Malta is and it isn't reasonable proximity, kind of south of the Strait of Messina, which we mentioned was a candidate for the Pillars of Heracles. It's been theory. Dear. I said, Malta used to be a lot larger, but that rising sea levels caused a lot of it to

be submerged. And also in the scientists at the University of Malta did report that years ago Malta was a lot bigger and it was joined to Sicily via a land bridge. But of course every island and years ago was a lot bigger because years ago the glaciers just started to melt and so sea sea levels shot up

big time because all that water was locked up his ice. Yeah, I don't know if you guys have seen charts of it, but but thirty again starting a little while bad, I guess, I guess it was more like fifteen thousand years ago. It really shot up. Well we've we talked about this with the bearing land Bridge. I mean it was the same thing. Yeah, yeah, and so they leveled off and then and I don't mean totally leveled up, and they sort of leveled off about seven thousand years ago. Sea

level rise. They've steadily been rising since then and more recently. Yeah, but they've they've been rising since then, but really a lot much sharply than they did in the past. Uh So, Malta probably was bigger than it used to be. There's another thing that makes it appear that used to be bigger. Maybe the islands were even joined, because there's actually three islands. It's Malta goes Oh and a very small one in between called Camino, which has I think like four residents

or something. Uh yeah. There are there are cart ruts or what they call cart ruts all over Malta end goes O, which are these these grooves that are white, sort of like worn in the limestone of the island. In these places where the limestone is exposed, and they're always in parallel. They look like cart tracks, like like a like a sled or or or a wheeled cart or something like that. But they've been worn in there

all over criss crossing the islands. And what's weird about him is it in places they go right off cliffs. Other places they go down into the water. And so that kind of makes you wonder. I mean, if they they're going down into the water, they're going to a destination. That destination must have been dry land at some point. Well that or you know, it's walking mermaids. That's a good point. It's top half fish, bottom half Humans's ugly.

There's nothing to say that that was. That's not how mermaids are just saying, yeah, they drive cars, just like the rest of us. Yeah, but it does suggest to me what the islands used to be, bigger, possibly even interconnected. The interesting thing is that we know that limestone is one of the softer rocks, so wouldn't take too awful long for tracks to start show up if people are you know, if you've got route you take the same root every day, and to take that route every day

for a hundred years. It's not as if when you walk across some really hard stones and you never make a dent in them. So that's the that's the one interesting thing about this island. It just happens to have the right stone. Yeah, and it is that has been inhabited by human beings for a long long time. Yeah, lots of those islands have another reason to think that Malta might be the candidate, the best candidate. There's a guy in Malton named Anton mssud who Mark mentions is working.

Interviewed him. It's spent a little time with him and ms suit has gone back to primary sources for his Atlantish research, and you know, read all these ancient documents in Greek and stuff like that, and he found an interesting quote from a Greek name Wills of Cyrene, who wrote, I'm not sure I'm not pronouncing this, but I'm gonna go. He wrote, quote was the king of Atlantis uh, the island that once existed between Libya and Sicily and was submerged.

This large island was known as Nicopolis Atlantica by our forefathers of Cyrene as well as by the ancient Greeks. Unquote, I don't want to give Mark a hat tip here because I lifted that quote straight out of his book. You didn't you didn't actually call this guy uh an interview? Now I didn't actually Okay, yeah, no, sorry, I can't afford it. Well, let's be honest. If you had called him, you would have said, and I called him and he hasn't called me back. Yeah, that's probably that's what usually

or and I called him. But I don't speak Greek. Yeah, that's yea. I don't think. I think we speak Maltese on Malta. Uh. But of course the downside of the whole multi areas it's too small and it has no mountains. I supposed to say. Thing could be said for Santa Ridi and Creed. Also, fifteen years ago sea levels were about a hundred ten meters below what they are today.

But if we takes Plato's timeline seriously and the story took place in hundred years nine tho years before Solon's meeting in Egypt, sea levels were about six lower than they are today. But so far there's not evidence of a sophisticated human civilization that old. But on the other other hand, I mean, maybe it's all underwater. You know,

maybe there's lots of evidence. Well I think that, I mean, yeah, because there's other there's suggestions in other areas of the world that there were intelligent, you know, like really sophisticated societies prior that we've just forgotten about. So or it's been submerged because I mean, typically, you know, these the earliest cities were usually built on the edge of a body of water, usually the ocean. Well there's also now we're discovering there's a lot of red herrings in the ocean.

Did you guys see that. I'll put this article up before around the time that this comes out, But there was something that people were pretty sure was in an inhabited, submerged place that had must have been above water at one time, and it had all these interesting structures and it looked like it was almost a flagstone pattern on

the ground. And it turned out the whole thing, they just finally figured out it was actually a natural formation just because of a certain kind of the gases that were coming out of the ocean floor, turning the stone into dolomite, which then allowed bacteria to do these things

to it. Like it's a total red herring, but it's one of those places where people like this has gotta be something real, and there's probably a ton of those all over Yeah, definitely, if you're looking for that stuff, you've got your work cut out for you because it's been down there and it's got stuff growing all over it, you know, and that's that's that's covered with silt in a lot of places. So it's it's gonna take a

long time before we find anything useful down there. Yeah, it's gonna take a while, and then we're gonna find that that domed, bubbled city they're all living and still and it's the problem with it is too is like, you know, if it's above ground, you just send a bunch of college students out there with toothbrushes and the spoon. I really do that so easily in the of the ocean. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't work. No, it doesn't. So yeah, it's it's

it's it's expensive. Let's move on to another theory. This is there's somewhat popular one the Canary Islands. So they are beyond the pillars of Heracles, which qualifies them. They're well, they are kind of small, but they're also volcanics, so who knows, maybe they've blown up numerous times in the past, and they're a lot smaller than they used to be. And you know, I'm finding that my common thread for all of these are places that, like anybody would want

to go. So they're good suggestions because anybody who's researching them, it's like, you know what, I really got to go to the Canary Islands out if it's Atlantis or not, and I'll come back in six years. Yeah yeah, and with some idea of if it's Atlantis or not. Yeah, I would yeah. Yeah. When the Carthaginians discovered the Canary Islands, they found ancient ruins there, and of course the Carthaginians where themselves kind of ancients, so if they found ancient ruins,

well really ancient, that's pretty ancient. There's also remember that red, white, and black rock that I talked about the modeled colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that rock can be found there. They are also natural hot and cold springs there, so yeah, that's one reason people are kind of lacking the Canaries. And then there's there's another theory out there that it wasn't just the Canaries but also the Azores, Madeira, and Cape

Verde Islands altogether. Are just fragments of the original Atlantis, which should be pretty large. I mean, it was called the continent everything. But that's a lot of material. See that part again, the whole continent appear disappearing. It's kind of hard to swallow. Well, the evidence proves that. I mean, the floor of the ocean is very thin. It's not like there's a thick crust like there is underneath the continents. And there's nowhere that has anywhere shown that it could

have had a continent. Plus, there's no um, what is it where two plate tectonic plates collide. Yeah, there's there's nothing like that for to have been submerged and then sucked unders there would be very obvious evidence if it was a little continent. Uh yeah, no, I think I think so too. That's kind of the problem I have with this. But but but if it was a you know, God made thing like we're doing in you know, Saudi Arabia. Now we're not Saudi Arabi im sorry, in the United Emirates.

They're making these like you know, is island things. I mean, if you know, Poseidon was just making things like that, there's that could have submerged pretty easily. One of the most famous Canary Island advocates was Heinrich Hidler, you know, the famous Nazi familiar Nazi coming. Yeah, yeah, I get it.

Uh huh. But the Nazis are interested in Atlantis because I thought that perhaps the Atlantians were the forebears of the German people, of course, and the reason was that the Atlantis were advanced, superior and awesome, so were the Germans. So there must be a connection there, right. The Nazis were really good at think finding something ing that like proved that they were amazing and manipulating the information to match what they wanted. Man, they were so kookie sometimes

most Yeah. So we talked to Mark about the Nazi connection and here's what he had to say. You know what they had, They had this whole team, the Onitor but I think it was called put together by Himmler, And the whole point was it's very much like the first Indiana Jones movie Raiders. It a lost stark. They're looking for ancient evidence of this super Aaryan race that of course eventually became the most super race of all

in their opinion. Um, you know, the National Socialists. And what's interesting is they had planned um, a big expedition to the Canary Islands, which is which is not you know, as far as possible sites go, it's not the worst one you could come up with, uh for the Fall of nine. And it seems that the reason they never got there is because the Nazis decided to attack Poland instead. So it's like, wait, just one more bad thing to

come out of that whole era. But yeah, I mean they were the theories, the theories they were promoting, we're just completely nuts. I mean, going back tens of thousands of years and things like that. And you know, because stuff like that is interesting to a lot of people. Uh, it just it gives this tinge to Atlantis in general. That makes it sound like, you know, a subject that's only dealt with by crazy people. Um and I don't think that should be the case. Enough about the Yeah,

enough about them. Um And I should also mention there's a theory out there that's also called kind of racist, and I and others really is racist. But it's called the fusionism. And it's a theora that much, if not all, the the early advances in technology originated Atlantis or in some place and then spread to the rest of the world. The reason it's controversial is it is it's sort of

a put down of all these other people. It's like saying that these superhumans in Atlantis advented all this cool stuff and it went out to the whole rest of the world, and that's just filled with dummies. You can figure then you could never figure that stuff out, you know. And yeah, so that I don't really agree with the whole diffusionism thing myself, because some ideas are kind of obvious, you know, and people could separately conincidentally have the same ideas.

It's not at all beyond the relevant reasons. Pyramids, Yeah, I mean these pyramids in the Americas. There's pyramids in Egypt. So what it's not that remarkable the concept when you think about it BOMs. Yeah exactly. I mean, hey, simple ideas. Another problem with besides the small size of canaries are outside the pillars of Heracles, but they're like almost seven hundred miles away from the trade of Gibralter. Yeah yeah,

and that's a lot of material to go missing. Don't know, Well, that's the remaining you don't know how close the outer wall or the plane was. Yeah, maybe maybe it was. What remains is the small pieces left is yeah, and the rest of it's all been smoothed and yeah, that seems unlikely though, Yeah, I don't think that's the way that everything works in that area. Yeah, let's go to another theory here. Cut these Spain. And by the way, I was just out yesterday doing a little a little

white surfing on on street view and cut ease. And if I'd really recommend that you go out and you look at it, if you look at the area of it, there's a peninsula out in the front of the town in front of you by the Atlantic Ocean, and at the very very north end of that as like the old town, the old city, I'd really recommend doing a little street viewing in there because it's really cool. Is just because it's cool architecture, just cool architecture, and and

really narrow streets. I mean some streets too narrow even for a car, and most of them are like you know, just one car a lot. Yeah, it's yeah, it's just it's just a really beautiful cool sound check it out. I really wanted. Yeah, that's a nice thing. If I can ever afford to go there, at least I can see it on street view I really would like to

go there. It looks like a really cool place. Okay, cutt Ease, Spain Okay aka Gotties which is mentioned actually byplay though gotties, and so it's it's of course there's other places that would might possibly qualify as gotties also. But it thought that Atlantis maybe perhaps wasn't an island because apparently the Greek word for island can also mean peninsula.

So this theories gained prominence in recent years because Caddies is just outside of the Pillars, and it's also in an area that's known from massive earthquakes and Tsunamis has large copper deposits, which may account for plates mentioned of our calcum. But is it round? Is it round? Well, that's the thing. It's there is no structure there that

really looks around. There is an area north of Cadiz which is called the Douniana National Park, which is kind of a swampy bird preserved, fairly large area, and people claim to have found shapes in the ground from satellite photos that look like concentric circles, and apparently that the ground there has subsided um and it's kind of just like I said, swampy and so it makes that makes excavation pretty much impossible. Yeah. Yeah, so, and I looked

at the satellite photos. I couldn't see these outlines, and people who also said they've seen some rectangular structure outlines too, I can't find them myself. Um, I found something that looks like Google on there, but yeah, well that's Google, people.

That is the hard part when people try to use satellite imagery to find stuff, not that it hasn't worked before, but I feel like sometimes those were the lucky ones because a lot of people are looking and looking and looking and then just staring at shadows of trees and deciding that is this is actually a change in the structure of the Earth below it, And we saw that with the Phobos two incidents. When you look at the pictures, it's like, yeah, you could draw an outline of like

anything you want in that. You can see whatever you want in that, But realistically it's just shadows and craters pretty much. And that shows us how accurate Courtney Love was when she used it. Yeah, and Phobos, by the way, you're still an ugly little moon rude. Sorry, Phobos is never going to call you again. Actually, I think I think photos is pretty cool looking actually ended up with sort of way. Yeah. Uh So between Cutties and on Yana National Park that what's called the Bottle Keeper River

flows into the Atlantic. Uh. And it is believed that in ancient times the river split before reaching the ocean, which created an island in what is today that the southern part of the National Park that could have been the island of Atlantas. And also, I should say there are mountains to the north, which is another key point.

The one thing that just struck me that I hadn't really thought about before is that we all presume that everything that was done it was done in some kind of stone structure, when it could have actually been earthen ructures. So it could have been let's just presume that Plato was telling the truth about the rings but he was off on the scale. Well, then that could have easily, over a couple of generations been done by people just as an earthwork, and then when they stopped maintaining it,

it goes away. Yeah. I mean, if if we're gonna go with this, it's actually just on a peninsula that happened to have a bunch of earthwork rings on it,

and people are like Wow, that's really cool. I mean, I'm making this up off the top of my head, saying that Atlantis was earthwork or he's saying that there were earthworks built on this spot in the earthworks went away, but there's still sort of I'm saying that the real that Atlantis wasn't some giant city, but it was it was probably a town that had all these earthworks that

the locals were keeping up. So when when Plato says they were these giant rings in the ocean and data da da, I'm saying, Okay, well, they're probably actually above ground. If if we're going to go in this it was on a peninsula theory, that's the only way I could buy it. Yeah, yeah, But but I could certainly see

that too. The earthworks get smoothed by tsunami, because there there have been some big old tsunamis as part of the world and the coast of Spain and Portugal, so that could definitely knock knock them all apart and you know, sort of semi dissolved them. But yeah, I don't know. That's it's a good that's a strong it's considered a very strong candidate, But I don't know, And then there's

one last one. Mark talked about Morocco. Also, it was a German guy named Michael Hoodner just did a bunch of like once the word, I'm taking a bunch of data analysis of all the various clues and came up with a site in Morocco, which is also and I don't know, did you read this book. Did you read the Morocco part? Yeah, I think I remember that part. Yeah. Yeah, So this this is somewhat was this some miles inland though it is one of the problems with it, but

it's got ruins built on concentric circles. He's actually actually found this site by via computer and data analysis. And then he went out into Morocco and there was just the one that's kind of maybe got Aspergers is ever, No, that's not hum that's the German. Okay, that's okay, they're confused, Okay, all right, I knew I've one was kind of credible and one seemed a little yeah, a little bit. But yeah, him, they're unfortunately, was killed in a bicycle accident recently, which

is too bad. Suspiciously. Yeah, that's yeah. Well it's interesting though. He goes out there and he finds this city. One of the remains of some ruins of what appeared to be a city built on a site that had to contect concentric circles of you know, dips and rises, and the remains of these structures are made of red, white, and black rocks. But unfortunately the locals are carrying away all the rocks and there's really not very much left. So it's really sad. Yes, we've talked about this before.

It's kind of a common occurrence. Yeah, yeah, it happens, and so it's really a shame. But so I know, probably maybe as I speak, maybe everything has gone who So it's but I don't think this was Atlantis anyway, because this one is miles inland. Then it's like hundreds of miles up. Remember we talked about how we had the rigs and the islands and everything, and then there

was a canal to the sea. If that canal to the sea, it means the city has to be more or less at sea level, Yeah, you would think, yeah, otherwise you have to have a really elaborate lock system. Oh god. And also there would be that would have been a pretty massive canal and there would still be some evidence of it. Theoretically. Yeah, so I'm going to give this one a fail. But let's ask Mark, because Mark has actually been there, Let's ask him what he thinks.

It's pretty high up, I mean, to have been hit by a wave. And we should point out that Plato's description in the Atlantis story is is not the island sink to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean as is often you know, bandied about, but um, it was destroyed by earthquakes and floods in a single night. So the sight you're talking about in Morocco. The guy who came up with this idea, UM, Michael Hubner, who was an I specialist in Bond, Germany. You know, he decided that

this sort of circular structure, um stone structure. UM. I don't know. It's like ten or fifteen miles inland from the Atlantic coast could have been hit by a huge tsunami. And the area has been hit by earthquakes and tsunamis frequently over the years. But yeah, it would have to be you know, a thousand foot high wall of water or something to get to that site, you know, could it be uh? And this is what Hubner proposes, you know, two or three ancient stories that were put together as

they sometimes are, and remembered as a single myth. Um, maybe you know, it's possible. It's definitely possible. Um. You know, people love that theory because you know, we're in this age of big data. And what Michael Hubner did was he he found fifty one clues from Plato, and you know, he plugged them into this algorithm and when it spat out at the end, it pointed him to this one spot in Morocco. And as he described it to me, it was he's like, you know, six stigma, this is

seven sigma. Yeah, I remember that from your book. You know. It's like it's it's impossible, you know. And it's like, you know, when you talk to one of these people who was like a pure you know, mathematician, it's like, well, yeah, but you you're controlling the variables here, right, You're plugging in the data that you want. He's like, yes, but if it did not work, we would have an old set. All right. Well, so much for the Morocco theory and the other series. You guys, No, I mean, I I

said it before. I still believe that Plato wasn't being honest, though he said he was being honest. I just I really feel like he was sort of obsessed with his descriptions of the perfect government that it doesn't it wouldn't shock me for him to just willie nilly grab things that had up and around and twist them to make them examples of good or bad for what he was trying to get across to his reader. Yeah, I tend

to think that he was. He wanted overboard with his description, you know, because he's describing the perfect society and perfect government. But why did you need to toss in the elephants and the red and white and black rocksts? Was the Republic? Remember it was a much longer than these dialogues, and did the Republic? Because I've never read the Republic because thankfully I never had a teacher who was that cruel for such a long thing. So what you mean is

you literally never took a philosophy course ever? Right, Because I don't believe in any the point is he went into. I'm sure he must have gone in some crazy details for that thing to have been that long. He couldn't have talked at a high level the whole time, am I right? Or yeah? Yeah, no, it's it's it's actually been so long since I've read it, I probably should read it again. Okay, Well, the point is, though, is that the way this story ended, he may have just

been ramping up baby. He may have just been getting started to just go again and write some huge thing, and that was how it was all going to make sense. Yeah that's true. Yeah, maybe I don't know. So anyway, I'm still I'm still thinking it was probably something of a real story. What do you think, Devan No, I mean, I think I agree. I think it was based in truth. I don't think that, you know, the concentric circles. I don't think that. I think there's a lot of stuff

that was added in. And you know, part of that is just do you want to respect Plato for his authenticity, but also, when it comes down to it, he was a storyteller, you know. And artistic license, Yeah, there's some artistic license that you would take. But also, you know, I guess you don't know necessarily if the Egyptians took the artistics or Salon took the artistic license, or like who took the artistic license at one point. But I do think it probably was based in some kind of fact. Yeah,

I think so. Yeah, but I don't have a I mean a clue where it is. Yeah, no, serious, not really, No, I say it was a barrener just because I hate Aquaman's orange and greens outfit bikini bottom. That's why I never read that comic terrible outfit. All right, there you go. Last was real. You heard it from us, It's got to be real. Uh, we don't line, No, We're never wrong. Yeah, solve it every time. Yeah, it's just just a few housekeeping details here our website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

If you want to, like, you know, download an episode or whatever, not leave a comment because we shut comments off. I'm really sorry about that, but and it had to be done alas. We'll also find us on iTunes and there's lots of places to stream us in Google Play. Uh, subscribe, give us a rating and a review if you want. We would really love it, especially a favorable review. And most of the stuff happens on iTunes. Yeah, Google, I know doesn't allow ratings and reviews, or at least I

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one if you want to. We're at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com and we are on Patreon if you want to support the show and totally voluntary, of course you don't have to, but go to patreon dot COM's last Thinking Sideways and just be aware if you pledge money, like if you pledge a dollar, that means you get charged the dollar for every episode, so you know you might be feeling generous you want to pledge

like a hidder box. That means it's a hundred bucks per episodes, which that's which we're told it down with before before one thing, and that's why we have the PayPal, Yeah exactly. So there's PayPal for the one times or the merchandise, the merch We got a lot of merch yeah yeah, yeah, and so yeah, definitely check out the merch well, that's it. Oh and Joe, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about Marks book. Yeah, yeah, Marks book Mark Adams. The book is called Meet Me in Atlantis.

Came out in um, it's on Amazon. It's it's now in paperbacks, so you just came recently. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just still it's a really good introduction to the whole Atlantis thing, which is much bigger and more complicated than you. But yeah, he's a pretty good author or whatever. He kind of knows what he's doing. Yeah, good at his job. No, actually, it was, it was. It was a really interesting book. I really, I mean, I gotta be honest. I didn't ever read about Atlantis because I

thought it was Cookieville, right, I was really. I was surprised because I knew Mark's previous book, so I'm surprised when I saw that he was writing about So it was very interesting. Yeah, and I think folks will enjoy it. Yeah, it is. And he brings up a lot of good stuff, which is that there are serious scientists and people out there who are actually talking about Atlantis. I mean, it's not it's not just for nutcases. I used to fringe science. No,

it's not fringe at all. They're actually in the southern Land. He actually went out and met a lot of really really interesting smart people. Yeah, very intelling. Yeah that's the thing. Yeah, there's actually very intelligent people who are working on this and not the Kukvills. You think it's a dome city. Yeah, Aquaman? Is that because I hate Aquaman that's living there. Yeah, it's still it's still a submariner. Submariner, submariner. No, no, no, submariner.

See what you say a mariner is a sailor when you say submariners, saying that's somebody who is less than a sailor. Submariners, submariners. This is this is a real point. If you if you are a submariner, you're not a submariner. That's the wrong way to pronounce it. You know what, I've just figured out what Joe is a total fan of Aquaman. Uncle boy until next week from Thinking Sideways Q goodbye, better everyone. A dramatic reading from Mr Grinning.

Atlanta was a city land locked hundreds of miles from the area you now called the Atlantic Ocean, yet so desperate for the city's desire for tourism that they moved offshore becoming an island and an even bigger Delta hub, until the city over developed and began to sink. Knowing their fate, the quality people ran away, Ted Turner, Hank Aaron, Jeff Foxworthy, the man who invented Coca cola, the Magician, and the other gods of our legend, though gods they were,

and also Jane Fonda was there. The others chose to stay behind in their porches, living with their rifles, and in time evolved into mermaids to sing and dance and ring. The new