Thinking Sideways: Arthur's Seat Dolls

super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry, just in case somebody you know, five years from now I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen. This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, thinking Sideways. I don't under to say you never know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, what's up sinking side With the podcast? I'm Devin hosting super Well, joined by my co hosts and Steve Yeah,

here's one for you. In eighteen thirty six, five boys were hunting rabbits in the northeast area of Arthur c Edinburgh. Pro tip if you are boys hunting and you find something even remotely weird, just just walk away, just walk away. The number of cases that we cover that start out in this way is mind boggling to me. It's boys, specifically young boys groups as young boys find something and then think, oh, I know, let's go investigate that. Why why?

Because they're boys. The ten year old boy in me come completely identifies with the boys in this story absolutely. You know, if you if you have the potential to kick off a really cool unsolved mystery, and then you should should not turn your back on that as long as it doesn't involve you getting killed. No, it's mostly just playing with stuff, yeah, throwing stuff. I just think we should start keeping a counter. These kids were kind of jerks, but we'll get into that later. Yeah. So, okay,

the boys were hunting wabbits. Wabbits kill the wabbitibbit, kill the labbit, and they came across the cave. Zwinks they better check that out, so they did. Inside they found seventeen small caskets and a pile. And by the way, this wasn't really a cave. It was kind of like kind of like a hole inside on the side of the hillside. My story is so much better. Cave is cool. Cave is cool. No, it was found a torch, an old torch, and they lit the torch and they walked

into the cave. But it didn't really happen that way, and it didn't happen that it kind of an alcove area. Three pieces of slate covering. I don't know. There were seventeen small caskets and a pile, eight on the bottom, eight in the middle, and one on top. And upon further investigation, guys so smart, they found that the caskets contained a small wooden doll in each one, carved to look like a human, clothed and small handmade garments. The dolls were said to be about the size of an

adult finger, so three or four inches long. The doll, not the cast. Yeah, the doll, okay, yeah, just making sure being boys, dumb, stupid boys. Hey, Instead of running to the police or the adult with this fine, they decided, oh, you know, it would be awesome, Let's just throw all these things at each other. This is the equivalent of a dirt wad fight. You find something and you throw it at your friend to make them run. And screened

this is why the ten year old boy loves this story. Somebody. Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, at that age, I probably would have done the same thing. I would be because of this. Only eight of these dolls remained. They were destroyed. Most of them were destroyed. Yeah, and before we go much further, this is the Arthur Seat murder dolls. And it was listener suggestion about a million years ago

from Thomas all right, ready to keep going. Yeah, creeping me out, kind of creepy boys throwing caskets and each other creeps you out a little, tiny caskets. It gets a little creepier, a little creepier maybe. Anyhow, it's not clear how the eight remaining caskets that did make it made it back to civilization, well, in any kind of sense. The boys were never questioned, they never gave any statements.

It's unclear if they told their school teacher or he overheard them talking about how much fun it was that they were throwing coffins at each other. Was it the school teacher or their head master head I thought it was the head master. Somebody involved in school, okay, who happened to also be an amateur archaeologist. Because that's what you did in those days, right, So he heard the boys or the boys told him or something. Maybe one of the boys had a black guy, and he was like, wow,

that happened. He was like this dude through and he was like, okay, we'll tell me more. Either way, somehow the dolls made it back. And again it's not clear even if it was only the eight dolls or all of the dolls or what happened, but only eight of them really survived. Yeah, thanks have a way sort of like disappearing. Yeah, let's talk about the dolls for a seconds more. I guess a little more. We've talked about

them little bit already. There are some reports that there are both male and female dolls, but I don't actually think that's the case. I would agree with this, And like I said, only eight of the dolls survived, but none of them, as far as I can tell, were dressed as women. And let's be fair, if you're going to make tiny little doll clothes, it's way easier to make a skirt than it is to make little trousers.

But they all had little trousers on the ones that weren't decayed, didn't didn't They weren't where the trousers so right with legs, because I mean these things didn't have individual legs. They they did, did they had? Yeah? They had, they had, and they had a pair of legs. They weren't just like a stub that had some kind of feature carved into them to give the appearance there were two individual legs and little pants on them, little pants on them. The dolls in the bottom coffin seemed to

have been older and more deteriorated. Some of the garments were rotting away or totally rotted away, you can see in some of the pictures this. The middle tier seemed to have looked more recent, and the top one apparently looked almost brand new. And again, in fairness, this is I'm not it's not clear how this information was relayed. Yeah, the kids probably upset the site quite a bit when they pillaged it so they could throw stuff at each other.

So these were found in Arthur's Seats, which is in Edinburgh, scott Scotland. Is that right? Yeah? Did you do any research on that site by chance? Like pertaining to what? Well? I just I pulled a Joe and I went Google mapping, and then I started researching it. Did you know that that's actually an old volcano, which is really cool. Yeah, it's also only about two miles away from the ocean,

the North Sea, right, not the ocean. It's it's really weird, raised out raised chunk of earth in the middle of a town. So it's just it was really interesting to me, and that's why I was just asking. Yeah, it's a pretty cool all spot. It's one of the only fully green spots on Google in Edinburgh because the rest is a town. Back to the dolls, there were two different kinds of coffins, one carved more rounded, one a little more square. The different kinds of coffins, however, don't seem

to have been exclusive by tier. They were all inter mingled when and and this is I saw this in the photos of people might not understand this when you say rounded versus square. The square was really more just a rectangle, just simple straight pieces of wood, and the rounded it only looked like somebody had basically carved off the corners to smooth it out a little bit. So

that was the only style difference I saw. That was my impression too, Okay, not that some of them were circles and some of them Yeah, that would be super weird. It also seems that the dolls were not actually made for this purpose. Men any of the dolls were missing limbs arms. Specifically, they all had their legs, I think, so that they would fit inside the coffins. And in fact, it's a bit odd that the coffins weren't made to the size of the dolls. That's one of the things

that sort of made me wonder too. Yeah, it doesn't seem like maybe they were always meant to be together, but the dolls do seem to have been from the same set. They all seemed to be almost identical. The theory is that they were a set of soldiers, toy soldiers. There were markings around the feet that looked like they had once been painted, like they were little booties, black booties. Were they painted or were they blackened? I got the impression that they were black and almost with soot or

a candle or something. It's a cheaper way to do it. You just grab a chunk charcoal out of the fire, you know. Well, yeah, I know, And this is why I didn't. I didn't. I never saw anything said specifically. Some said they were black and some said they were black and that was my too, so I just said painted. But you're probably right. It probably was something more like charcoal or something like that, which wouldn't last as long,

but who cares. They were worried about that. The legs were carved in a way that seemed to note kind of a rigid, upward standing post, like standing at attention if you're a toy soldier. Yeah, And in fact, upon further inspection, it was discovered that they would stand straight on their own if a small amount of weight was added to the front of them, like a musket. The

arms that were missing would have held a musket. It would have been on like a bandolier across their chest or something tripod kind of like long across their chest, just like hanging there. So it wasn't actually going to touch the ground, Okay, I got I got the impression that it was that you see soldiers, you know, let's yeah, you know, holding their gun against the ground, so they make a tripod. That wasn't my sense. It was that

they would have had something else lashed them. I will believe you, because I'm not positive I didn't go as far down in this one. Yeah, that's probably true. It was like I said, they were probably toy soldiers, and they probably had muskets or something like that, so they

would stand upright in that situation and quickly. I want to address the rotting because the different It was initially suggested that perhaps they were of three different ages, that the bottom ones had been placed much earlier than the middle ones, and the middle ones placed much earlier than the top one, or that perhaps the top tier was in a work in progress or whatever. But I do want to just mention anybody who's ever had like a woodpile may know that things rot from the bottom because

that's where the moistures end. So those would have, even if they've all been placed at the same time, would have absolutely rotted much quicker and would have looked as though they were much older than the middle and top ones. Tears tears, will call them tears, Yeah, tears good, Yeah, yeah, because you're gonna have fungus and bugs and just plain water damage in general to that would yeah, it makes

total sense. Yeah. So, like I said, there was the original thought that they had been placed at different times. I don't think that's true. I think it was probably at the same time, maybe a short period of time but definitely no more than twelve years, which I guess is kind of a long period of time that has got a long period of time. Yeah, I mean, I definitely if it was me doing this, I would have done all at once, just to save myself a lot

of trips up the mountainside. Yeah. Well, but that's that's inferring that if somebody's putting their these in that location for specific reason, that it's one reason and not a reason that reoccurs over a period of time, because I know some of the reasons that they would happen we're going to talk about in the theory section. So that's that's a big presumption. I have to say, I'm going to do it just this way because it's easiest. No, Actually, what I really would have done pitched him out in

the trash, but yeah, not broken. I would have got to the hassle of making them little coffins. I would have just like tossed them but given them too. Obviously, Yeah, obviously I've got I've got different motivations than whoever with these things there. And here's where I get to actually nerd out a little bit to help justify my no longer than twelve years things, because I'm really excited about this. I am a bit of a historical fashion buff you as you to know sitting in this room with me,

and this is where don't talk anymore. There was a lot of analysis of the textiles and notions. And notions are like thread and buttons and the other miscellaneous things other than just the cloth that you would use to create something in case you didn't know what those things were. Anyways, there was a lot of analysis happening on that aspect of the dolls. Since it was it's pretty well recognized that they probably were tour soldiers and they came from

the same set. It's hard to glean a date from that because they could have been years old by the time they were placed in the coffin. So they thought, well, let's look at the fabric, which I think is great. If you look at the pictures of the dolls, it's fairly clear to say that they're not really clothed for burial. That is to say, they're not in the traditional burial

clothes of the time. It's more of a garments kind of representing clothes every day where, or maybe not garments at all, just to cover basically chunks of cloth that they just put over the top of them, right, Yeah, except that they weren't actually just placed on top of them like a blanket. They were actually sewn into sleeves and pants. In fact, some of the dolls that were missing arms also there are not armholes where an arm would have been. The seam is sewn up over that

missing arm. So they were clothed for the purpose of going into those coffins once the coffins were made to size, which is fairly interesting. No, you guys are looking at me like this is boring. Well just I just this is this fashion with thread count and notions are I don't get it? Yeah, so this is the this is actually the bit. I'll just get to the bit that

excites me a lot. The curator of European Textiles at the National Museum of Scotland looked at these garments and she noticed that the thread that had been used in some of the garments with three ply cotton thread. This, okay, three ply though cotton threats. So you know applies are because you buy toilet paper. Yeah right. The reply is there's three layers. Yes, two ply is two layers and single ply is one layer. Never used single ply, right, Why would you ever do that to yourself? It's awful.

But the same thing goes for thread. You can make thread with just one strand, or you can make it with multiple strands. It's stronger. So it's three strands wound around each other pretty much. Yeah, okay, I've got it. This is significant because the kind of thread, this three ply cotton thread wasn't even remotely available prior to eighteen twelve, and didn't become readily available and used until the eighteen thirties. So that can help us give a bit of a

timeline for these garments. And it is fair to say that the some of the other garments were sewn with two or one ply thread, so they could have been sewn earlier at the same time. You know, people don't just pitch stuff out right. I mean, I've got I've actually got sewing thread that I inherited from my mother, and you know who knows she might have inherited from her grand because why throw it out? Yeah, there's a couple of loops that you hang onto him for a

quick stitch job. Yeah, So this allows us to date the dolls as having likely been interred between the eighteen twenties, mid eighteen twenties to mid eighteen thirties, likely eight eighteen thirty five, just for convenience sake, I would say it's a pretty good time frame on cotton thread. So at first, the suspicion was that these dolls were related to witchcraft. That's what which I mean, this is kind of late

for the witchcraft bandwagon. It's not the sixteen hundreds. Probably at that time, probably still a lot of people are kind of believing in that stuff. Well, it turns out as recently as some women in Russia were murdered because they used folk magic on some people. They were burned at the stake. No, I mean even in the even in the twenty one century. I mean, there have been rumors, rumors of witchcraft started in some countries in Africa, and

next thing you know, people are getting killed because of it. Yeah, so it's still going on. Yeah, people thought maybe because they were mixing voodoo and witchcraft. Up, I'm not totally sure. I'm not up on my witchcraft stuff. I guess I should go back and do some learning. I didn't realize that they used dolls, but I guess the theory was that maybe the dolls were used to symbolically confined victims to their tombs forever. Well, the dolls could be there.

An effigy and effigies have a pretty long history and they've been used for lots of things, traditional burial things when a sarcophagus is not the right thing. But if you see the old stone carvings of kings that sit on top of their their caskets, that's an effigy. But effigies have been used in all scales for all kinds of practices through time, so an effigy can easily be linked to it. And I don't think it has to just be a voodoo saying fair. Yeah, and I guess

we're in Theories's just keep talking about theories. Another primary early theory was that these dolls were meant to represent an effigy a bit sailors who had been lost at sea, to give them a sort of ceremonial burial. And like we said earlier, Arthur's seat is just about two miles away from the coast of the North Sea. It does overlook the sea. It's pretty It's the kind of place you might bury somebody you cared about, even if only

in a four inch long doll. That makes sense, But you would think that would be some sort of memorial marker. You would think that you would also think that there would have been some sort of record of the loss of seventeen souls. I don't think they bothered again, Okay, I'm going to point out a fallacy in that that, which is you're presuming that all seventeen died at the

same time. We're we're giving a ten year range for these things to have been interred, which means that even if it wasn't over that ten year time span, there could have been time between them being put in there. So it could be I knew Steve and Joe went on this ship, and then that whaling ship sank, so I made effigy so I could bury them at home, and then of course, and then the next is the next ship that you know a couple of guys are on,

and so it could have built up that way. So I mean, we've got to be careful of saying they were all interred at the same time with that idea. That's fair, That's totally fair. I guess I just think there's a cooler theory out there. I hate I hate this one. Why do you want to talk about that first or do you want to talk about it after? Let's wait till after. No, let's talk about your feelings. Let's not you know, I'm not a big talking about

my feelings guy. Podcast therapy session. This is not that podcast. Are you guys ready? Are you guys up on your early nineteenth century murders in Scotland? Yeah, some listeners maybe as well, So you might know these guys, William Burke and William Hair. Yeah. Burke and Hair were Irish born immigrants to Scotland. They are so famous, in fact, that there's apparently a British term called Burking, which is derived

from Burke's name. So why are they famous? You may be asking if you don't know, if you're not up like we are on our early nineteenth century murders in Scotland. Well for killing people, of course at the killings. They are the guys behind what's known as the Westport murders, and they killed sixteen people in ten months. But Devin, you're yelling undoubtedly at your iPod in the car and

people think you're crazy. There were seventeen calls. Well, kind listener, that's interesting because Burke and hair were killing folks to sell to a doctor to dissect, and they actually sold seventeen bodies. The first one died of natural causes. That was there, like introductory, that was their inspiration. It's like, hey, wow, they thought, oh, let's sell him. And then they're waiting for somebody else to die natural causes, and they thought,

let's just rush the process a little bit. Yeah, the first so he expired of natural causes, and they they yeah, they basically realized how much money they could make and said, hey, why don't we just kill some people sell their bodies. What did they get? They sold it to a professor, a doctor named Dr Knox, who is using him for lectures.

That's what it was. Okay, so they actually sold the first body for a hefty seven pounds ten shillings, which doesn't sound like much now, but is about the equivalent of one thousand, two hundred and six dollars and cents or about eight dred and six pounds in two thousand fifteen. Yeah, I gotta tell you that that really wouldn't be enough to incent about a murder somebody. In fairness, it's not nothing for just finding a body talking about murdering bucks,

I might be tempted. That's a good point. It gets better. Doctor Knox offered any bodies that they bring him further, particularly if they were mostly healthy and just died of like, oh,

I don't know, asphixiation or something. He would pay them ten pounds a body, and I'll do some quick I did some quick math, and that meant that they in ten months they would have made a handy twelve thousand, four hundred and ninety six dollars in today's But there's actually a better calculation for what it is actually equivalent to with the cost of living. Blah blah blah, blah blah. If you want to find out how I got this number, you can email me. I will tell you all about it.

I don't know for everybody, but it actually is about the equivalent of two hundred and ten two dollars in ten months by selling seventeen bodies and murdering sixteen people. Murdering I don't know for two hundred and eleven. It wasn't like Hardy got him drunk and suffocated them. Anyways, The murders were okay. The murders and the one death were hugely sensationalized and Harren Burke were caught and tried. This is super cliff notes version of this story because

this is not what the story is about. But essentially, the prosecutors were under the impression that Harron Burke would just say no, he didn't, no, he didn't know, he did he did, and the jury would get confused because people were dumb then, apparently, and they wouldn't convict either one of them. You know what, I think the jury probably would have convicted both. I agree, I think they

probably would have too. But because of this, the prosecutors said, oh, well, actually, you know what, Hair is kind of the dummy of the two, so they offered to allow him to become what's do what's known as becoming King's evidence, which basically means for immunity rats out. He said, yes, I will do that, and it worked, and in eighteen twenty nine Burke was convicted and hanged. Actually he was convicted Christmas Eve and executed a month later. You gotta love it, because,

I mean, that doesn't happen in this kind. It takes it takes thirty years at least. But here's the best part is that the judge and his sentencing said yeah, you're going to be executed, and also, uh, also the day after you're executed, you're going to be dissected in public. And he was dissected in public and correct me if I'm wrong. They then took his skeleton and that is still in the Royal College. I think at least the skull is. I'm not sure if it's entire. I know

it goes a step further than that. They actually sold his skin as like pocket person They used it as leather goods basically and sold it. It was yeah, one one, like I don't know if it was, I can't remember. It's like a card purse or something like that, a little small purse that was made from the skin of his hand, and that's sold as recently I don't remember, like two thousand and eight or something like that. Yeah,

and it was. I mean that's the grossest part. Yeah, I mean it's I I don't want to own anything that would made out of somebody's skin, especially not a murderer. Who knows what kind of bad ju do that. Yeah, anyways, you can look up the story. You should definitely look The hair is a horrifying story, horrifying and super fascinating, great story. Now, can we get to my I don't like the story? No? Why? Oh no, I'm sorry. Do you have more on it? I do? Let's have that

lots more. So. It's again it's theorized that there were seventeen victims kind of so it could have been similar to the burial for the sailors, kind of in an effigy. What's referred to as a mimic burial is I think probably the term you were looking for. It's because since the bodies were dissected for science or reasons, they they never got a burial, so it was supposed to represent them so that their souls could be laid to rest.

There is a huge problem, one huge problem at least, and that is that of the seventeen victims of Burke and Hair, twelve war women, and all of the effigies look male or don't have any feminine Not only do they look man, that's fine, that's fine, there's no feminine

features at all, so that's pretty big. Additionally, the there's the problem of who would have created the dolls that comes into play here because Burke and Hair there was a thought that they one of them did it because they felt bad, but Burke and Hair were apprehended directly after their seventeenth murder. Well, and also they were sociopaths,

so they probably didn't feel bad. Well, I don't know if they're sociopaths, but they don't strike me as the kind of guys who would go to any huge I think Hair seems like, well he he lived up the rest of his life and misery again, or you should read the story. It was not a popular guy. It was not a popular guy, and people recognized him everywhere

he went. Anyways, some people have suggested that there was an accomplice, because there were lots of accomplices, perhaps that weren't ever actually convicted of anything um in regards to the Birken Hair story, But it seems like those people would want to keep a low profile, and maybe carting seventeen coffins, no matter how small, into the wilderness would be kind of a high profile thing. Well, but there are four or five inch coffins. You can fit those

into a bag very easily. But even there's you're carrying a bag of stuff. I think that they would have

not done anything even anything even kind of suspicious. Yeah, I don't think so either, but you know, it's also possible, and I don't think I'll just say this, I don't think that the dolls are committed, are connected to the murder and anyone, but it's but it is conceivable that maybe somebody, having heard about these seventeen people haven't been died and sent off to be dissected and then basically tossed into the dumpster, maybe somebody got the idea to

create these epigees and bury them. Well. I guess it's also probably worth noting that the theory that the dolls were connected to the burke Hair murders the Westport murders wasn't even positive and tell them the nineteen nineties, that was an issue made and somebody looked back and thought, oh, there's seventeen victims, and I know that the only thing

they have in common is another. Yeah, I think that that's you know, I know Steve has a bunch of stuff to talk about this, but I think that's one of the big ones, right, Yeah, Well, yes, it's so romantic to assign these dolls to this case. It's a romantic notion. We've found this connection between in the two and so somebody had remorse. That's to me why people

go to it. Okay, well too, maybe direct who might have been And I again, I'm not on the stand of saying that is connected these murders, but I know that the wives and children and the woman who owned the boarding house that they were in, they all got out relatively unscaped, but they all had to leave town,

but they didn't have to leave town immediately. So if we're gonna say this is correct, there is a possibility that they had some bit of remorse or guilt or felt like they needed to do some kind of penance for it. So that's why they would have gone ahead

and done this. Okay, that's the easy answer. I did a bunch of digging into the time frame and looking at as we talked about a little bit earlier, is that the use of effigies was something that had been going on in Europe for years and years and years, And because we talked about the sailors thing, but you know, something else that was going on at the time and very close to when the dolls were found, cholera, typhus

and influenza. You're rampant in the area. If you look at the news prints of the time, all kinds of alerts about this, and it's killing people like mad If your family member dies of cholera at the hospital, they're not giving you that. Boy, No, you're not going to get the body back. So what do you do? You say, uncle Jay and Janey died. Uncle Janey maybe, but and Janie most likely, and Janey died, and we can't do anything.

So I'm gonna do this little ceremonial thing here and then oops, well, now uncle Bob just got typhoid or died of typhoid, and then somebody else of influenza. All these deaths, it may have just been pure happistant. So the reason that that's why I think they're there is either as the sailors or somebody who knew as everybody did, a bunch of people who died from some ailment that was just running like wildfire through the population. That's a

that's very very true. Another possibility, even though I don't think they would have gone to the bother, is that maybe either Hair or Burke built up a little collection of these little dolls. I say, and it wasn't because they felt remorse, but because you know, they had time in their hands and everything, like the accounting system Basically, it's kind of like, you know, you know, every time you shoot down an enemy fighter, you put a little you put a little Japanese zero on the side of

the nose of you're playing. Oh yeah, well two fighters today, Yeah, exactly. So every time you do it, you create a you can grab one of these dolls and make a little coffin for it and put it in, and put it in the coffin, and then perhaps one of their one of their wives are supposed alleged accomplices, realize that, holy crap, this is kind of incriminating. I got rid of it, although I think that probably more likely want to shoot all of my own theory, just would have burned them,

you know, that's much simpler. Yeah, yeah, I just that just popped into my head out there, just to fill up a little air time. Yeah, I guess in fairness to poke another hole in that. Like I said, Verk and Hair were apprehended within I think an hour or two of their for their last murder. They wouldn't have had time to complete the seventeenth doll. Well actually, though maybe maybe they completed the dolls before the murders. I don't think they were that pre planned. I doubt I

doubt that they be crimes of opportunity. Yeah, and I mean, well, that's the thing is you can say, well, the wife or the mistress could have done it, but then again, why was she doing it? And at what point why wouldn't she have just chucked him in the fire rather than hiking up the hill and then putting them into a hole. That I think that the simpler answer of somebody did it for something other than the Burke Hair murders.

I just I don't. I don't have any good theories about what else, which is why I went through all the historical documentation to try to find some explanation that was a little more rooted in fact. That's fair, I guess. The only thing is that seventeen people is a lot of people. But well, but your sphere of influence and close relations. It could be if there was a big scholar epidemic or something like that then, and people had a lot of kids back then, many of whom died young.

So it could be family members. Uh got brother and a sister, and Aunton and Knuckle, maybe one of your parents, and then maybe a whole bunch of other people, you know, like schoolmates, or whatever, and so maybe that was There's a host of reasons, and I think it's not going to do with any benefit to beat him into the ground, but not a bunch of them. Yeah, there is. There really is no mystery here, I think, but I don't want to say that. I do want to say that

it is interesting though. There was a little a lot of approbrium directed a lot of people, like especially Hair of course, and the doctor Knox who dissected all these bodies. And it's like people keep bringing to these dead bodies and you and you pay them for them, and pay these guys for these bodies, and you never say where are you getting all these bodies from? And he just dissected them. And so he had mobs showing up outside

his house and throwing rocks through his windows. All of the all of the family that the mistress, the wife, and children, they all had to get out of town. Oh hell yeah, that was a bad scene. But the dolls, Oh yeah, you know, I'm sorry I did a dangerous thing where I brought up a really interesting case that wasn't unsolved. That's super interesting. Yeah, I think it is solved, but I'm sorry ment isn't unsolved, but there's a bunch of points. Yeah, we're back on topic, Devin. Where are

we going now? We're going nowhere? Yeah, we're there. Sorry, guys, that's it. That's all we've got. Yeah, okay, that's the whole like, that's all the theories. And Steve came up with a pretty good one. Yeah. I think. I think the lesson is that if you've lost a lot of loved ones and you want to make little effigies in their honor, do a better job of hiding themselves some little some little jerk kids and like really each other. Oh my gosh. Yeah yeah, So I mean that's it.

I guess I like Steve sory the question. That's a good one. Yeah, okay one, although it doesn't explain why they were all a dressed like little dudes were little soldiers there, little dudes to start with. But you put them, you can put them in little skirts and stuff. If it's Aunt Jane, you're imaginative, you can. If you're not, you just dress what you have. I guess that's fair. Pants are really hard to make, though, just like, yeah, I would say it's score to be easier, way easier.

I'm just saying I understand just saying, especially at that size, I worked with a bunch of non creatives. Trust me, things where Okay, So, yeah, do you guys have favorite theories? I know yours. I'm still gonna go with the troop of Oh yeah, I know, I know. Um No, I have no favorite theories in this one. I have no opinion whatsoever. Yeah, I don't really, I don't care about

this car at all. Well, sorry it's a little short this, but now I guess I do have one opinion, which is that the typical name that is given to this mystery is the Arthur Seat murder Dolls. And I think that's a really cool name. It is. Yeah, I mean, that's true, so cool. But the yeah, the name is, and that's the tie to the Burke and Hairy situation. Yeah, murder dolls. There's just something so cool and creepy about that. But but yeah, I mean, there's there's really no tie

and other than the number seventeen. So if you want to find out how I came up with that weird giant number, I do you will, we'll talk about it afterwards. Or you have a theory about what the Arthur Seat murder Dolls might be or just the Arthur seat dolls or whatever. You can email us Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh, you are probably not listening to us on the website, but you can listen to us on the website. That website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

There are some of my research links up there as well, and on that as well, you can find the link to buy merch if you want. We got it. You guys were asking for it, so we did it because we love you. Finally, finally we have phasers and what else do we Yeah? We have rocket launchers. Yeah, yeah, a couple of airplanes. I don't know what kind they are.

You guys know that they're expensive, but if you want something a little cheaper, we also have t shirts and mugs and phone cases, which I am buying one of. That's right, I have to buy my own merch for free. Nope, find us or you probably you could be streaming us also almost anywhere. You are probably listening to us on iTunes though. If you do that, subscribe if you haven't already, and leave us a comment in a rating. Those are awesome. It's how other people find us, and I know you

want other people to find us. You can't find us on Facebook. We have a group and a page which has been uber busy yep, like us, friend us, friend us, find us, find us, friend us, like us, and then tweet us, and then and then tweet us thinking sideways, no podcast or anything like that. That. Okay, we tweet sometimes. Actually we use that Twitter thing every once in a while, and I think that's it. Usually we do the email

at the end. That's why I'm confused about it. If I told you or not, Sorry, I missed that one up. They know where to find us. Ever, you guys know where to find us. You're doing good at finding us. So that is everything about dolls. Yeah, creepy dolls. This is why I never liked the movie Chucky, because dolls are creepy. They are. No, No, I didn't watch them, but do go watch Breaking Hair. It's fun. It's a

fun movie. It's Simon Peg. It's totally fun. I gotta say, if you can, if you can make a comedy out of murder, that's awesome. Oh, it's totally funny and weird, Simon Peg. Yeah, okay, I gotta see it. Yeah. And by the way, speaking to Simon Peg, if you have not seen Sean of the Dead, well, you better go see it. Any of the Cornetto trilogy all right by. You know what's funny is if anybody knows this story.

Every time I read about Broken Hair, I have a really hard time not visualizing Simon Peg, because there's that that movies five years old. Five years ago, they made a Broken Hair and he was in it. And every time I read this, I see his face. I cannot help it sounds like a personal problem. I did not see that movie. They actually made a movie about Broken Hair. It's a bit of a comedy. I didn't make a comedy out of this story, and it's Simon Peg.