Thinking Sideways: Abismo Negro

and Joe, and this week we have yet another mystery. Uh. This week we are going to talk about the death of Bisbon Negro a Bismon Negro for anybody who doesn't know, was a was a lout a door and his looch doors. That's obviously. Bismo Negro was his ring name. His real name was actually Andreas Alejandro Palamecke Gonzalez. Do we want to tell what people what a looch door is? We will. We're okay, We're gonna get there. I'm sorry, just a brief description of what the mystery is before we talk

about the details on it. Pala mack A was found dead under a bridge neil near El Rosario, Mexico, in March of two thousand nine, and the initial belief of what caused his death, and then the eventual official cause of death was accidental drowning, which caused a lot of

questions to be raised. And the reason partially is because it was during the dry season in Mexico and he drowned a mud puddal basically, yeah, yeah, he basically drowned in a mud puddle so deadly dihydrogen monoxide that oh yeah, teaspoon that can kill you, can kill you, and everybody who's consumed it dies, you know. Okay, So this, this supposed mud puddle was actually it was a body of water.

It was about a waiste not waist deep. But it is really strange because it raises the question of how does a man who is so physically fit drowned in such a small body of water stand up? Stand up? And so the mystery, the questions around the mystery are, you know, how did he die? Was it really an accident? If so, how did it happen? And if it wasn't an accident, then it must have been murdered? And who pulled off this very well covered up murder? Yeah, it's

really what our story is. Good questions. It's quite insidious, I must agree. Before we get into the mystery. Quick shout out to Stephen who suggested this, not not not me, know somebody else like a year ago, which I mean, this is another one I've been sitting on forever. I admit it. I'm doing this all the time. You are, you know. I go through that cheat that we keep of all of the suggestions, and I see, oh, that one sounds all Steve called Dibbs already. That was Steve

called Dibbs already. Okay, I'll do this one. No, Joe's got DIBs already. You guys been doing it for years. I know. I really appoloy, I really we should have warned you, except that you would have got in on the really good stories. Is to tell you that we were calling dibbs on spreadsheets, so I didn't know. And by the way, Devon, we're calling dibbs on the spreadsheet, So go ahead and call DIBs on anything you want.

Oh great, now, thanks. You know. Actually, the reason I do that every time it's time to do an episode and I'm trying to think of a good mystery to do, I go out there and I go to those things, and sometimes I'll be opening those up and realizing Christ. You know, I looked at this thing like three times already, and I've forgotten about it and gone back and looks I started, I said, I decided to start marking the good ones. And you'll know I've marked out the ones.

Is too short or not a mystery, or I have noticed Joe has his own crib note system. He does. I still don't know what the asterric means. I've asked him three times. He refuses to tell me. Actually, I've forgotten what it means. Think it means. I've looked at it yourself. So new mystery next week? What does the astrict meaning? Okay, alright, let's go on with our story. I do okay. Before we actually get into the story, quick quick disclaimer here story took place in Mexico. There's

a lot of Spanish. Spanish is not a language that I am very good with. I mean, if you've heard me speak British English, you know how bad I am or English English English English. So I have done a lot of work to get the pronunciations of things right. If I dropped something, which chances are good, I'm gonna drop a couple of things wrong. I apologize in advance Okay, back to Devon's question several minutes ago, which is what's

a Luchadors are wrestlers. Luchadors are part of sport which is called lucha libre, which loosely translates to English is free fight. Lucha libres kind of similar to professional wrestling that you'll see in the US, which is it's non greco Roman wrestling. Yeah, it's like the professional wrestling with the guys are big, hooking guys and they have these

all have these grievances against one another. We're talking like ww e JO sort of stuff, except that the lucha libre is a little unique in terms of there's a cultural aspect where all of the wrestlers are always seen in the ring as their persona or outside the ring as their persona, where they're wearing a mask, if not an outfit, and we're talking likes full face mask, you know, complete body suits that are color matched. So there are things that you'll see with these where it is very

stylistically linked together. The masks are very stylistic, and one wrestler's mask and another's wrestler's mask don't look anything alike other than their a mask because just the way it's organized, So it's it's it's very distinct. Yeah. Frankly, I've always been a little creeped out by those masks. Yeah, I would agree with that. Actually, well, you know it's It's funny though, is that most people probably will know what we're talking about because there's so much pop culture stuff

that's been done. I mean there's cartoons. There was mucha Lucca which was on TV for several years, which was a cartoon road Strong Bad from Home Start Runner. Although my favorite thing about Strong Bad. Have you ever caught the joke of Strong Bad he's wearing a luchador mask, but he also wears boxing gloves. Yeah, so there's this weird, this weird little joke. And and who he is Yeah, Nacho Libre. Also, I don't think he wore the mask. I didn't see the movie. I didn't watch that. Yeah. No,

that's one of those ones. I wasn't gonna wat check made that movie where poop disappeared. I kind of stopped watching this movie. I literally have no idea what you're talking about exactly. I don't think I saw that one either. You're lucky. Yeah, what movie was that? Ben Stiller was in it. That's all you need to know. Don't don't, don't go down that alley. I'm gonna go on record here as saying, in regards to Lucally Bring, it's all fake. What pretty sure it's all fake? And I'm pretty sure

that's a well accepted fact. I don't know about that, Steve. Okay, So American w w E slash ten A wrestling people still try to pretend that's real. But the reading that I got that I did. I get the feeling that you know, people who watched literally they get that it's kind of made up. Well, of course it is. Now Okay, so I've I've gone ahead and I've piste off sports fans this entire continent at this point. I'm sure not many of our listeners aren't wrestling fans. You know, it

all makes sense. I mean, if you're going out into the ring, like you know, five times a week or whatever and actually really going at it, you can't just do that all the time. Injured a lot. Did either of you watch matches for this? I have seen them before.

I didn't for this. I was I was cracking up watching some of the matches where they are just they're all super macho and they're buff and it's so hard, and then one guy smacks into another guy and that guy goes completely flaccid and falls down and then jumps up into suddenly just sy energizing, so hilarious. One of my favorites is one like one guy is down in the center of the ring and the other guy starts running back and forth corner to quarter, bouncing off the

ropes about him. Yeah, I mean, the idea I think is that is that he's like building up momentum and speed. You know what, Really all he's doing is running back and forth, Yeah, right to fall. It's not even like

you're gonna run. He's building up static electricity probably, And let me see you see him, Like do the other one with the guys down, He clambs up on the ropes in the corner and then jumps off on the guy, jumps on top of him and then just lads next to him, and his arm is actually the only part of them that hits the guy's body. Yeah, you know, and it's just totally the whole thing. It's just is so much fun to watch as long as you keep that in mind, because I'd laugh for a good fifteen

minutes watching these. They are so fun. But that's enough about the little precursor bits. Let's get into our mystery. Are we ready to rumble? Yeah, let's get ready to rumble. You're right, okay. So Pala Macka had been wrestling for about two decades. He began his career in At that time he was under the character or ring name of Alex Dynamo, and then, several years later and of course masked and costume changes, began wrestling as Pecanyo Samurai, which

translates the little Samurai. What does it did his costume look like a samurai? You're gonna you're gonna look it up now. I'm going to tell you that it doesn't look like a samurai. I'm just gonna tell you no swords involved. It is wrestling. He uh He. Then again, later several years later, changed his outfit again and his persona and in two became Winners that's the character's name, Winners, at which point he actually enjoyed a lot of success.

Yeah he did. He actually had. He had pretty good career there for a while before he started circling the drain Winners. It's just not it's just not omin enough, ominous enough sounding. Okay, So there's there's this funny thing in in luter libre where there's rudios, which are the rude boys that you're bad guys, and then there's the good guys. And the rudio's always have these kind of sinister names, and the good guys have these very simple, clean,

pure names. And so winners or winner, depending on how you see it written. He was a good guy, so it's kind of that clean, pure name. So that's why I believe that's what that's why it was only winner instead of the Olympic Champion winners or something crazy like that. He did. He did eventually do that. Um. But here's something that we got to point out about the wrestling sport itself, which is things are done with luchadors. There are leagues or federations, and people might be sort of

familiar with this with other sports. You know, you see the majors and the miners and and the semipro leagues and all this stuff. The thing about the Luca libre is that there are these leagues or federations, whatever you want to call them, that all operate at the same level into pendant of one another. So there are we

to actually mentioned this briefly earlier. In the US, there is the w w E, the World Wrestling Entertainments formerly WWF formally WWF, And there is also t N A Total Total NonStop Action, which I've never heard of before, you know, really, yeah, I've heard of it for years, but I always thought it was part of t n T the TV, But it's not. But these are two leagues that are on the same level, but they are

completely autonomous of one another. They're there, wrestlers don't don't crossover and wrestle their guys, and if they do, they full on leave one side and begin to operate inside the circles of the other. They don't. They don't go back and forth. No crossover. Now, so they were the luchador masks and the costumes and all that stuff. Is it publicized who's behind that masker? Is it just you know, when they're talking about the are they saying this person

is this person? Or are they just saying and it's this person they always refer as, at least in my experience. And again, I don't know a lot of Spanish. I don't watch a watch a lot, so I can't give good firsthand knowledge of this. But what I understand is everybody kind of knows who behind who's behind the mask, But when the mask is on, that is the character, and that is who you talk about. You don't say and Bob Jones playing the whatever whatever, that's that's not

the way it goes character, you know. Yeah, it's like um as an example, in the w WF when I was a kid, so there was there was Hull Cogan. Everybody knew who whole Cogan was. Well, that's kind of his name. But then there's Jake the Snake. Well, Jake's last name was not Snake. His character was Jake the Snake. He had a last name. His first name happened to be Jake. They never said Jake the Snake a k A. Whatever his full name. About the Undertaker, that was not

his real name. That's not his legal name. No, No, I have some I have some apology letters to write. Do. Yeah, we are way off track. Okay, So we were talking about the League's what we were talking about. Okay, So palamcka was originally he was wrestling under uh. It's commonly the abbreviation in English is cml L, which is consert Ho Mundial de Lucha Libre, which is Spanish for World Wrestling Council. And that was when he was under the

characters of Alex Dynamo and Pecano Samurai. And then after he went over to what you see commonly referred to his Triple A promotions, which I'm actually not going to try and say this one Spanish because I know a butcher really badly, uh, which in Spanish translated to English, it is assistance counseling and Administra Arasian promotions, which is why everybody calls it Triple A because it sounds much

sexier that way. But when he was when Palomo palam Oke was at Triple A, that's when he started his winners and he had a lot of success with them, and then in he changed from one of the good guys to the bad guys. He changed his character, and that's when he became a bismo negro, which is the black abyss, which we haven't actually said yet. It is absolutely correct. We have not said that the direct translation, So this is this is the funny thing. Joe and

I chatted about this a little bit earlier. The direct translation in English is abyss black, but it is properly translated black Abyss. Yeah, that's one of those nuances of translation. It is, and it's it plays a bit of a role later on as we go through things. But he had a lot of success, Like I said, he did that he made that transition. He was one of their top wrestlers at Triple A in two thousand and four.

He was good enough that he actually got into an exchange program with t NA here in the US, and he for a year wrestled in matches in the States with the mask and everything before he eventually went back. And it's funny. I watched some of those matches and it's kind of terrible and shame on ten A for doing this a little bit. I mean, he does English, but he plays totally dumb like he doesn't know English, and they play that up. It's a weird stereotype thing.

It was awkward, still totally hilarious to watch him running around smacking guys in the face. But yeah, it was a little strange. It's a little strange. Yeah, the whole thing is a little strange to watch that if the people who watch it and take it seriously is what I don't. But again, I have made all those people angry once, So we're not going to keep doing that. Let's move forward. So after you know, there's he goes to the States. He's in on the teen A matches

for a year. He then he starts to hit what I would call a rough match, starts missing matches on a relatively regular basis, and based on the reading that I've done, he's generally starts to be considered unreliable, as in not showing up for matches. And that's kind of a bummer. Yeah, it's thousands of people show up for a four match night and one of the guys doesn't show. They just paid for a three match night and they're

they're not happy. Well, but so here's a question. I mean, they wear a costume and a mask, mask, there's no option, yeah for there to just have somebody else go on as him. I think that might have been done a few times. So there, um, there is ways that that happened. There are some negative repercussions that come about from that. We're gonna talk about some personally or both for the both for the reputation of the character as well as the organizer of the event, depending upon how they go

about it. There I mean, we can just jump to this. There's a bit where somebody goes on stage pretending to be our wrestler, our luchador here, and it is not actually him, and they bill it as him and don't make any mention that they have a fill in pretending, And when it comes out what happened, that promoter gets banned for two years. So we'll talk about that a little bit later. Yeah, so it's it's possible. I know exactly where you're heading with that, but it's it's terrible

for me. Yeah. Um, So the problem is he's missing these matches because, according to the rumors that we're floating about, and this is for a good number of years, he really some drugs. He especially seems to have been fond of cocaine. People are a lot of people do like cocaine to the length that he is reported to have wrestled for drugs as well as possibly have done it in the locker room in the open with other wrestlers.

Maybe this sounds like rude, but don't you kind of think you'd want to be high if you were doing this for a living. I'm actually if you're gonna go like fake a fight, don't you think maybe you want high before that. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but I'm gonna defend wrestling in a way that I never thought I was gonna do. Yes, Okay, so let's

think about this. A match is choreographed. You go to the ballet and these dancers have trained, and they know their steps and their routines and where they're supposed to be, where their marks are are are on stage the entire time, as are moving about rapidly with up to you know, I don't know how many of them on the site, but a bunch of people. Okay. Now let's think about that. From the point of a wrestler. There are two of you. You are choreographed to do very specific things, which are

feats of athleticism. The last thing you want is the other dude high as a kite and missing his mark and bringing his elbow down not on the mat next to your head, but on your throat. Like there, there's a lot of choreography and actual skill involved. I get that wrestling is a joke, but there's a ton of skill in or that to look real. But if if you took a few lines before the match, you know

it might, it won't necessarily make you less sharp. Two points one used Ballerina, which was maybe a bad example because I know I'm going to get some flak for this, But a lot of ballerina's do cocaine, like a lot of them, almost all of them. I understand that. Please don't send me angry emails. And two two's got it. Yeah, I mean that's been a thing. Um. But I guess point two is I don't know. I guess I don't

know the history well enough to know. You know, maybe he was actually a serious wrestler and hated the fact that he sold out, and so he wanted to get high, so he wasn't so embarrassed by I. I don't think that you can get into the sport. I mean he started in the sport at fourteen, he started professionally. I mean his debut. He was a sixteen year old kid. So he at this point you know in the story when he dies, he's almost a forty year old man.

He's been doing it for years. If he had a problem with it, if he would have gotten out of here, he would have this. It would have been very obvious many many years ago. Mostly, I just like you don't know why I am why I'm even bringing this stuff up, because I feel like it's just not an issue that he was doing cocaine. I mean, obviously it's an issue

that anybody's doing cocaine. But but but there is there's a there's a certain level of physical control that you have to have to pull off some of these things. I mean, you see these crazy flying moves that these guys do, and if you are blitzed in any way, well it's not heroin. I mean, but if you are not in your most soberst state of mind, bad things can happen. So that's why I say that. But the point is he he's apparently liked his drugs and like I said, to put it all the drugs on the table.

He liked to do coke. And it is also rumored that there's a lot of guys at the time and previous to him we're doing he was also on anabolic steroids. He was on steroids. It's no I thank you, Joe. It is very highly suspected, but there is nothing that I have found that says definitively he was on steroids. He Palaback evidently knew or somebody around him knew that there was a problem because he apparently went into rehab several times. And I also am under under the understanding

that Triple A banned him a couple of times. Maybe not officially, but he would come and go in the scene. If you're missing matches, obviously they're going to do something to you. Yeah. I think it was probably something in the order of, you know, go away, going to rehab, get yourself cleaned up, and they'd come back someday whenever, you know, right, And so then they would let him come back and he would seem fine, and then the process of the cycle would start again, and then things

would go bad and they'd kick him out. Now, Triple A, they were trying to figure out what to do because his character was pretty popular and they needed a roudio in that he was still winners at that time. No, no, he was. He was a bismo negro at this point because he had he had gone to that character seven. So this character is really fans loved him because he

was just he did this weird thing. He loved to bring out a lighter and a can of hairspray or something like that, and he was he was doing the flamethrowers and walking down through a crowd of people with fire like. People loved this crap, so he was very popular. Triple A is trying to figure out what they're gonna do because they're very popular. Rudio is suddenly super unreliable, and what do they do. They go ahead and they introduced a new Rudio who is black Abits in English,

right in English. Very similar costume slight. I mean if if they pitched these guys against each other as a gimmick several times and you watch it, I had a hard time keeping straight who was who. I had to dial the video back to look at the colors of who did what because the costumes are so similar. But they did this as a way of, well, you know, if you kind of screw it up, we're gonna we're gonna kick you out and we're just gonna replace you

with black Abyss, so you know, get your stuff together. Man. It's funny, but it didn't seem to fix the problem. So let's move to the last days of Pala Machi's life. In two thousand nine, Pala Macki took part in the King of Kings event which was in Guadalajara, and that happened on either the fourteenth or the fifteenth of March is when it began. I had a hard time pinning down the exact date, but I think that's because the reporting is based on matches and not the event itself.

But the point is he was eliminated in the first round. He is then known to have been wrestling at event at an event in most Lawn on the sixteenth of March, and he was subsequently supposed to be at a match on the twenty one at another city in Mexico, and

he no showed that event event. He was at the one on the sixteenth and then didn't show for the one five days later on fort Maybe he know you, yeah, yeah, because it's rumored that he stayed in Muslon and he went on a coke bender for at least five days, until which point he ran out of money. And this, by the way, I don't know this for sure. I want to put that out there. This is based on

the reporting that is done. His family has never said this, and we don't have a real clear accounting of his actions during that time from the match on the sixt forward, so we don't know this for sure, this is strongly believed, but not not a hundred percent proven. He's either supposed to be on the twenty one. He was either supposed to be in Monterey or in Cancoon, I don't know which one. But instead what he does is he leaves mas Lan and he heads home on a bus to

Mexico City. So it goes in the wrong direction entirely, like he just needs bows off the match. He wants to go home to get home. Like I said, he got on a bus. And this is another bit of weirdness in the reporting, which is he got on the bus either on Friday or Saturday, the twenty one. And here's why I think it's weird is that the bus left at twelve thirty in the morning. So my impression is at the bus probably actually left on Saturday morning

at twelve thirty am. Probably, But the way it's reported, you'll see it said that he got on a bus on Friday, and blah blah blah blah blah. Well maybe it was Friday when he went on the bus. He certainly probably showed up at the bus day Friday. No, but you will also see it said definitively that he got on a bus that left at this time, and he got and it was his Saturday was the day that the bus departed town. Like, it's weirdness, but I'm pretty sure that morning hours of Saturday and we got

on Friday night. It's weird. But about an hour into the trip, so this is about one thirty am, Palamcha reportedly he became agitated. You see this described as having a nervous breakdown. Uh, it was to the point that he got up. He went to the driver and he made the driver of the bus stop the bus and he got off the bus on on the edge of the highway. Now this happens near the town of El Rosario. The bus driver evidently must have reported this to his

superiors because they knew where they dropped him. How it's miles, it's not, it's not, it's it's more like a dozen maybe two dozen miles away at the very most, I would say, what's it? Oh, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mas it lawn to El Rosario. It was an hour drive, which means it must have been about fifty miles. I apologized, though I was thinking of the bus stopped outside north of the town of El Rosario. Based on what I figured out. That's where I was getting that mixed up.

So it's about an hour away, about yep. And he walks away from the bus and shortly thereafter Tex his wife and says something to the effect of he's lost in the dark in the hills. She faring for you know him, what's going on? She contacts a promoter that they know who's in most lawn to you know, get a search party and go look for him. Uh. That search party, I have to resume, didn't start that night,

probably started the next morning. They went around town, they showed his picture around, nobody recognized him, at which point they began to search outside of the town. They've the searchers found Palamas body and I believe it wasn't just these private parties. It was by this tend of police. Also, yes, the police were involved. Yes, I mean, this is just people looking for him, I guess. Is what I meant is they started the search party in general. I excluded

the police. That's my bad. They go looking for him Sunday, March. They find his body face down under a bridge in a body of water, Like I said, very small body of water. It's the dry season. It's one of those bridges. You may have seen the sports concrete bridge, and there is a river and walls of concrete. Walls have been built up on either side, either side of the bank of the river vertically, and then the bridge sits on top of those, so it makes kind of a channel,

and the center between the concrete creates a divot. That's where the body of water was almost directly under the bridge, and that's where his body was found floating, which is weird. Again, it's one of the few places where the water could have accumulated. Now I in the reading, they never say specifically where it is. Did they find a smiley face drawn anywhere near the body? Not that I ever saw, but it's entirely possible that it may have been cut out.

He wasn't in college, Okay, sorry, he may have been in the Lucha Libre fraternity. Now, as I said before, though we don't know exactly. The reporting doesn't specify where the bridge is, uh, which this is. This is a failing. I reported this, by the way. This is a failing on the part of Google Translate. There appears to be in the town of El Rosario, a citrus company and according to the translated text it is it is a

bridge that is Citrus Company tall. So I reported that issue, but it appears to be several miles north of the town on the fifty most lawn Tepic Highway is where he was found. Um he was found and the report again this is the weird part. The reporting says that he the body was found in the Beloirte River, which actually is south of the town, and if you look at it on satellite, there's these really big bridges with

big pillars and nothing matches the crime scene photos. There is, however, a small stream that flows into the Balarte that starts north of the town. It's really weird if you look. If you you have to follow the freeway to figure out exactly where his body is. The point is he's found in the river. I know I took that way too far, but so he found in the creek, not the river. It's basically it's creek he's found the depression

in the ground that's full of water. Initially, the official cause of death is nervous breakdown caused by steroids, and those steroid that nervous breakdown is what caused him to fall on the water and get stuck in the mud and because he was unable to pull himself out of the mud drowned. I mean, I have problems with that, but also like I have huge problems with that. But yes,

frowning is the official cod though. Yeah, I mean if I don't know what happens when you're having a nervous breakdown, I mean, we're gonna get into the We're gonna get this much more. I know, I understand. So let me finish this last. We got just the last little bit here, and then we'll get into theories. Um, there is an autopsy reformed apparently on the body. But once they figured out that, yeah, there's water in his lungs, they stopped doing anything else because they figured out why he died.

They don't ever try to figure out what caused his mental breakdown, and so they stopped the autopsy when they they found the water. They didn't like check his heart to see if he had had a heart attack or anything like that, or nothing is reported along those lines. Nothing says that. And here's the problem is that the like I said in the beginning, the initial the medical examiners like, well, he was obviously on steroids, and that's the problem, and that's what caused all of this, and oh, look,

I found water in his lungs and I'm done. At which point, kind of similarly to what we talked about in the Kobaine case, body has turned over to the family. The family has the body cremated in a matter of days after the fact, and we have no records of what was discovered or how much investigation they actually did during that autopsy and I have done. I find it hard to believe that they would just say, oh, water and the lungs, We're done. We're not gonna do anything else.

That's it. Now, Everybody pack it up. That seems odd to me that that's all they reported. But I can't imagine in a small town in rural Mexico. It could be that I don't have a time or the funding to do a whole lot. Look, I found water in the lungs. I get to sign off and say this is what happened, and get my five minutes in the sun. The news loves me. I pronounced a bismo Negro died of drowning. But was that guy he said a small town? Was he actually a forensic pathologist, or was he perhaps

just a regular doctor? He was the local medical examiner. Yeah, but I don't know a local. Does that mean that it's a hundred mile radius area? I don't know how big of a range he covered. I couldn't find that. This is one of those weird it's you know, it's kind of an area where there's not a whole lot of information available. Well exactly how big of a spread

he covered. There's one last thing which I know we actually talked about this just a little bit ago, which is, uh, they one of March, which was a Saturday, Abismo Negro should have been there at a match, and and he was. He was wrestling. He wrestled that night, and the crowd loved it. He was he was already dead, even though apparently he was either already dead or happending on a

train on a bus. Yeah. Yeah, So, uh, this is the part I talked about where it was found out later on that somebody had dressed up in an outfit looking like him and took to the ring. Now Black Abyss, the character whose name is in English, had been known to come and fill in when he wouldn't show up, except Black Abyss was that a rat? Was that a match somewhere else? Black abyss. So somebody else had to come in there and right, and they didn't say anything and it came out and it was a huge egg

on the face situation. But that's one of those things that people use as a conspiracy line of Well, obviously they knew that something was happened to it was going to happen to him, and they booked somebody else to come in as I had a time, somebody had given h wind that this thing was going to go down. This is one of those things that you see happens wrong, you know, maybe or maybe maybe they got wind that he was on a five day coke vendor and they

decided they were going to need a replacement. That's possible, absolutely possible. Well let's go ahead and that's the end of the story. Let's let's move right into theories because there's actually a good number of theories that they're all pretty inter linked, but they're kind of like small variants on one another a little bit. So theory number one is not or actually you know what could be? Yeah, yeah, you know what, never steal coke from a chio picabra,

for though, dude, that's a bad grudge, lifetime grudge. And by lifetime. I mean, you're short remaining amount of lifetime. You can get your man. Let's get back to reality here, which is that the theory is that Palamic was murdered by a cocaine dealer and or a car drug cartel. Yes. Um, so we talked about the fact that he had a

penchant for cocaine, apparently according to the reporting. And when you like to do lots of drugs, you end up hanging out with the people who supply you those drugs, and those don't tend to be the most reputable people around. So the theory goes that Palamack a um, he's hanging out with these people, he pisces off the wrong person, presumably a drug dealer, and my guess would be that this would have had to have happened in Maslaan, and that dealer, that angry drug dealer, then says that you're

gonna get it. I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna get you for this, which is what prompts him to leave down quite quickly on a bus and what prompts him then to have his panic attack or freak out and get off of the bus and send this panic he text to his wife I don't know. I mean, it's it's possible that maybe the guy was also texting him, though I haven't. I've never found any records of that. His wife has never provided anything that supports this at all.

I suppose his phone was in his pocket when he was found, and probably it was wet and they probably couldn't really restore anything. I would presume that that would be the case. There's no mention of where his phone was recovered. That's a that's another interesting fact that actually been recovered. Yeah, it might might have dropped it and lost it somewhere, but he may very well. But I have a few theories on this one. Okay, Well, let me let me finish just the theory itself, or do

you want to you want okay? So basically, this theory is that he's in contact with this drug person. I know that sounds silly, but drug person, and that freaks him out. He gets off the bus. Somehow, they find him in either a shove him off of the bridge into the water, or are on the bank with him and drag him into the water and hold him under the water until he expired. Yeah. I just had a couple of thoughts. Um, you know in terms of if somebody was following him or not. Uh yeah, okay, somebody

could have been texting him. He could have had an additional phone. If he was doing lots of drugs, he probably had a burner. Somebody was on the bus with him.

I thought was the other thing I was gonna say is it could have been somebody who's on the bus with him, or it could have been that if a drug dealer was thinking, oh, I'm going to kill this guy, he provided him with some less than pure drugs or some drugs with some laced with something of some kind that he did right before he got on the bus or while he was on the bus that caused his panic attack. I mean, it's not a direct hand of I literally held this guy's head under the water and

killed him. But if you send him into a panic attack on a bus in the middle of nowhere, he's probably going to have a panic attack and somehow find himself dead or otherwise locked up. But I wonder if somebody couldn't, like go slip him a little LSD, yeah, or you know, or all you do is you give him bad drugs and then have one of your guys be on the bus with him, but just to ensure nobody was witness getting off the bus after him. No, I don't, and I don't mean that. I mean that.

You know, you do your drugs and then you start to slip into this paranoia and you look up and there's one of the guys who is your drug dealer's henchman, and you think, oh my god, I have to get off this bus. So he gets off the bus and nobody follows him, which is fine, but he's still in this panic state of what's gonna happen. It's gonna happen, have to get away, have to get away, have to get away. So the thing about that is is that if the henchman is there scaring him, then getting off

the bus in the middle of nowhere really makes no sense. Yeah, I agree with that, but I'm not. But we're not saying that he's as Steve would say, we're not thinking rational thought here. Thank you. There's that. But the other in too, If you could to send the hit squad out to find him, well, number one, how do you find him out there in the dark but following the bus. If you're in a car following the bus and your henchman on the bus, says he just got off to

see us stop. That's true. Yeah, if I was going to go out, I'm gonna have a pretty pretty healthy sized team, because I would think that they would use weapons that we're not just their hands. Because the guy, unless you've dragged him really well. I don't think we mentioned it before he got into wrestling. He was in a martial arts big time by. He's a big, strong guy. He's been doing this for twenty years. That means he's

he's very muscular, he knows how to handle himself. He fights for a living, well kind of, but he does physical work for a living. He's a big guy. It's not as if I as a scrawny forty year old guy with a pot belly. He's gonna run up to him and yell at him, and he's really cool, scared of you. I'm sorry, he's you going to look at me and smack me in the head probably and I'm

going to have a concussion. So here's another question. We said it was dry season, but there was this kind of pond area the shore around this dry or this pond area. Was it dry or was it wet. It's a very good question. There's only two images that I could find. Those images seemed to indicate that it was kind of a clayish riverbed, and that right up against the water it is soppy clay, and then outside of

that it's kind of hard. Okay, Yeah, that answers. So there should be footprints the hard dirt, it's easy to get rid of footprints. Clay less wet clay, it's hard, very hard to get rid of them. Yeah. But then again, if they are footprints there, that's not that's not necessarily

a shocker anyway, that's true. And also there are enough people out searching that there's nothing to say that the scene wasn't swamped right, and that the first person who was there didn't say and I noticed there were a lot of footprints around, they would just be like, oh my god, we found him, and everyone could rominate come running and say oh we found him, and then yeah, next thing, you know that that's when whenever I murder somebody that way, I always break several sets of shoes

along so I can leave a kind of footprints. Yeah, that's where my shoes have been going. He does have small feet, he does you have big feet? One of the two. Yeah, Um, let's let's go on the next theory, which is that he drowned due to his panic attack or psychosis which was caused by his use of steroids. Okay, say this again. We don't know that he was on steroids, but there is so much freaking talk about it that

you can't you can't ignorg. Well, it occurs to me that it is totally possible, even probable, that the medical examiner came back and said yet he drowned. Um, he was on a lot of steroids and had a lot of co and a lot of other things, and the family said, cool, he drowned. You know, you wouldn't necessarily then publicized, and he was on tons of drugs and he did to himself. He would probably downplay that as much as possible and just stayed for for his dignity.

What were the results of of the toxicology report? If one was done, That's a very good question, Joe. I never found that because I don't believe it was ever publicized. That's what I'm saying. It could have been done. But let's let's back this train up for a second. Though we say one must have been done, we don't know what the standard practice is in this rural, this small area. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk who is belittling the medical practitioners in Mexico by any way or means.

But we also don't know that based on their funding, what what what is their resources? What do they start with it? They go, uh, well, the easy thing is, let's let's open him up. Oh look waters everywhere? Done deal? Uh there, Yeah, it's easy. I mean, we don't know and I don't know that, and I don't want to put any you know, anything on anybody. But as far

as I know, that wasn't done. But let's continue to run down the steroids line because I got ahold of some of our experts and there's a lot of conflicting information about the psychological effects of anabolic steroids. Some of that stuff about royd rage is, uh it's a little inflated, a little bit a little bit inflated. I mean it's hard because it's you can't really study it. That's a

good point. And yeah, so here's the deal on their own anabolic steroids, which for anybody who doesn't know, that's the thing that guys take to pump themselves up, pomp you off, we're going to pomp you up exactly, all right. These are the things that people take to get big, but they do have the potential to cause behavioral changes. Uh And and these behavioral changes don't come on suddenly. There are things that build up over time the side effects.

According to the studies, though, these behavioral side effects only occur in two to three percent of users. But there's a couple of things to point out about the studies. The first of which is that they presume and in

the studies, the users are only using one kind of steroid. Well, it turns out guys who are juicing use multiple types at once, and they do what's called pyramiding, where they will go in a let's say it's a twelve week rotation, so they'll build up for six weeks and taper off for six weeks, but two weeks later they'll start another kind of steroid. So they're constantly in this cycle with multiple kinds at once. Well, in the studies, because their

clinical studies, they can't do that. That's one thing that's not factored in. The Other thing about the studies is that they eliminate people who have a potential psychological issue like a pre existing one. Yes, yeah, you want blank slates case study, but people who do that stuff don't aren't blank slates. Yeah, the daring lies and of the problem.

But Obismo didn't have a history of psychiatric problems, not that we know of, no, But I mean the other thing that you don't really necessarily take into considerations studies like this, Right, Abismo Negro probably had like a couple of concussions. Right, there was probably a little bit of that sort of thing going on, And we know now from a lot of studies that are being done in America that that can have profound, prolonged and also delayed effects on your brain and the way that it works.

And so you're also doing steroids on top of that, and then those things can just systematically get worse and worse and worse. And snorts about a half pound of cocaine on top of steroids maybe, and then you're just done. The cocaine is okay, So let's let's take the coke out of the situation. And this theory is not so much centered in the cocaine, but just that let's say he's on he's at the peak of a pyramid of a cycle of his his steroid use that could have

been enough to just push him over the edge. So then all of this psyche, it all builds up to this psychosis where he suddenly has this breakdown on the bus.

The only thing that kind of lends itself possibly to indicate that this could be right, is that I said before he was at a match on the sixteenth, because he had been at the King of King's match on the or the fifteenth, whichever it was, and he got knocked out in the first round and then goes to this other match, which was sounded like it was kind of a house match or a town match. I don't you know, it was just kind of a local event, but he was booked for it. He was just um

despondent is the phrase that I saw used. He was not happy. He was complaining to the other wrestlers. Now maybe that's I'm not getting used enough. They're leaving me out because I'm always missing my matches. I mean, I don't know what it is, but people have pointed out and say, well, his behavior was he was on kind of a downward trend and was about to break. Well, yeah, he wasn't. He was kind of a downward train. There you know. So, Yeah, I would be depressed if I

were him too. Yeah. And so if you follow the final the finality of this, it says that he had his break. This is, of course, because it's due to the steroids. Steroids caused the break. He then gets off of the bus. He is completely unaware of his surroundings and either wanders into the water and is so aware that he aspirates water and drowns, or we've said this before. The water is shallow, like waist deep shallow. It's entirely

possible that he was on the bridge. He wanders over the edge of the bridge and falls over the rail. How how high was the bridge? Though? I would say that that bridge was twenty high? Joe, what is that meters? By the way, that's sweat three? I would uh, I mean, I guess I would say that if you found face first off of something like that, you your face would be pretty mashed up. That'd be something I actually I

spent a lot of time thinking about this. Let's say he falls off the railing and he lands uh anywhere that is not head first, so he is in a prone position when he hits he's bruising lots of lots of outward damage will happen from a fall like that, but not enough that I think that if he's been soaking in the drink for a day, it's gonna be super noticeable. And my point is that he would be

stunned and then drowned. That's that's I You're right, there should be outward signs, but there's a whole bunch of details of outward signs that we have no record. I'm kind of I'm kind of doubting. And they fell off the bridge though, because I don't know what the standards are for railings in Mexico, but I assume you're kind of similar to what we have here. Oh yeah, No, it's it's a roadsign bridge. It's about Waiste High. I mean I've seen. I was on Google Maps, I was

pulling a Joe. I was on Google Maps do and street View, and I drove across that bridge and it's about Waist High. Yeah, so if you seriously want to get over that, you're gonna probably do it deliberately. You're not just gonna trip and fall off, well you might well. The one thing. The other thing I do want to just point out real quick here is I don't know if you guys have seen this video or not, because I know we're going to talk about more. He was

just panicking and drowned theories. There's this video of this little kid who I don't know, I remember where he is, but he's like probably five or six years old, and he's clinging to a rope, floating on his back like crying because he thinks he's going to drown until suddenly his older sister or mom or somebody comes over and just kind of pushes his legs down and it turns out it's been like lower than waist deep this water the entire time. But he was so sure, and I've

seen this happen to other people too. You sometimes you get so sure that you're drowning, you just panic and don't do anything actually helpful. You're just thinking you're drowning, right, you just seize up, or you start flailing around thinking, oh my god, I'm drowning because my face is covered in water, without thinking my back is dry though, or I could stand up. You know, if you're if you're entirely submerged, your head is entirely submerged, You're probably just

going to think I'm drowning. And if you're already having a panic attack or some kind of mental break, you're probably not going to be able to do anything helpful. So do you want to bring that up a little bit? Yeah, that's as we talked about that in saying that, Yeah, it's only waist deep, but it's still waist deep, and that's enough to submerge your head fully. So and and and I also, I'm gonna move a theory that was at the end of this. I'm gonna actually shuttle this forward.

We're gonna talk about this now, which is that let's take the psychological break out of it. Okay, it's entirely possible. So I can't explain why he got off the bridge or off of the bus. Excuse me, I can't explain why he got off the bus. But when I talk about the fall bit, it's entirely possible. He's in the dark. It's one thirty in the morning. He can't see a damn thing. It's actually well passed one by the time

he actually fell into that hole and round probably. Okay, so it's two in the morning, three in the morning something. It's pitch blackout, he can't see crap, and so the whole he fell over the railing. He could have literally been walking. Have you ever walked into a wall in the dark and had no idea it was there. He could have been walking and suddenly just pitched over the rail and went down because he had no idea where he was. It's entirely possible. Do I think that's what happened.

But because we're bringing this up there, and and the water line below the bridge, the lip of the bridge where he was found, it's not a straight line. It's kind of an undulating shape. So he would have either if he fell off the top of the bridge, he would have either a hit the water or be hit the ground. And I'm pretty sure he didn't hit the ground because there's no impression of his body in the shore.

And also would be really hard for him to hit hard enough to bounce into the water, which makes me think that he would have hit the water, which again brings me to he could have hit just right. We talked about this all the time. The odds of this are phenomenal, but it's possible. It's just right. Where does it leave any outward signs? But it stuns him and he drowns well, and Also, if you do a belly flop on the water, it's gonna knock the wind out and you're gonna suck in and you're gonna dry and

they draw a lot of water. And when you do that, there's there's also that phenomenon which I experienced one time rafting. And I don't know how cold that water was, but when you hit really cold water, I can't imagine it was cold, Joe. It was the dry season. This is March, right, Yeah, and I suppose it wouldn't been that cold. It's not freezing cold. Gasp reflex. It's just a gasp reflex because you hit the water, get the water, or the wind knocked out of you, or you get or you're so

stunned you just like out of it. And yeah, you know, I I tend to think he just stumbled into it or maybe fell off the bridge myself. Yeah. Well, let's let's keep going though, because we've I mean, we've talked about this enough so far, but we got more theories. Okay, next theory is that this is and this is related very similar to the last one. Is that the one before last? Yeah, yeah, because I did, I moved one up.

He drowned. His panic attack or psychosis, whichever it is, was caused by actually not steroids, but steroid withdrawal, because one of our experts that I was talking with was bringing up the fact that, yeah, while the psychosis can happen, it actually is a little more prevalent when somebody goes

called turkey. That's the problem is you just suddenly get off the sauce and um, that might have been what caused him to go office trolley as they say, and then get off the bus, be so confused, and whatever happens for him to be end up in the water happens. Is it steroid withdraw What? What withdraws that that makes you really thirsty? Do you know from water? I think like that you need water, Yeah, if you haven't had water for a couple of days. Why they're like there

are a certain drug withdraws there are. I'm just wondering if maybe like he was going to withdrawal of some kind and I saw this little thing of water and thought I will drink from that, but was so messed up he just went in head first. I don't know.

I mean when he's when he's when he's drowning. Technically, and technically, um, but we're gonna go to the next one, which is very similar again, which is that his panic attack or psychosis was caused by none other in cocaine, because like we talked about, he seems to have really enjoyed it, and the this is a list of side effects that I found. The short term side effects of cocaine are anxiety, paranoia, panic, and some other forms of psychosis.

And because he's a user of it, he likes it, he would fall into the category of long term effects. Those would be auditory and tactile hallucinations other known otherwise known as hearing things and feeling things on your skin. That's a common description, disorientation, delirium, and confusion. So coke bender, jump off bus, fall off bridge, end up in water is kind of the short of what this one is.

He was probably lost to which they believe me. It is kind of a panicky feeling, right yeah, yeah, in in the very dark of night, and you know, we had a cell phone, but we don't know if it had a good flash on it for him to use. Oh okay, so he probably did. He might have had a smartphone that he might have had a smart phone. He might not. Yeah, we don't know that for sure.

Moving on again, we have one last theory, which I actually think personally I find to be my preferred theory, which is that he drowned or fell due to a stroke or a heart attacks not unusual if you've been doing a lot of coke. Heart attacks are not uncommon. It's also not unknown or unprecedented when you've been doing steroids, because steroids um are known to cause people to have strokes and heart attacks. And this isn't necessarily for heavy users.

This is just like casual users who work it into their workout routine and suddenly have it. It just they just suddenly, with no signs previously have a stroke, have a heart attack because they decided they were gonna juice and this happens. By the way, did either of you look up the slang for steroids? No, what slang is that? The names that it gets this is the best thing ever. So I've said it a couple of its juicing, but they call it juicing Jim Candy, Pumpers, Roid's stackers, and

are you ready for it? Arnold's that's my favorite. But the swart Sky the short skis are no own for causing heart attacks and for causing strokes. So it could have been he's on the or maybe it was the coke. He's on the bus, he's in the beginning of a heart attack or a stroke, which is known to be

a state of delirium. It's not just delirium, it's also causes you to be panicked and uncomfortable, yes, like very uncomfortable, and also oftentimes like hot, and you try to escape all of the situations that you're in, pointing at her with the yes finger. Yeah, that's the S finger, you know, both of those. And again it's it doesn't necessarily have to be drug induced. It could have been that it was just a blood clot from an injury. It could

be that he just lived a hard lifestyle. It could be that he was genetically predispositions disciposed to that, disposed to that maybe. But I mean, if it was a small stroke and all it did was really incapacitate him for enough time that he fell into water and also drowned, it's not unreasonable to assume that the emmy would miss

something like that. In addition to that, also heard and a cursory medical examination or a cursory yeah, if you if you see water in the lungs, you're not going to also do an extensive exam of the heart and brain to see if they had a heart attack or blood clots or damage. Yet, you know, I can understand why somebody would immediately jump to the drowning conclusion. But the thing about it was is he was a strong guy. I'm not going to say he was totally healthy, but

he's probably fairly healthy. Part with the he fell in the mud out and couldn't get out, and so what would incapacitate somebody. We'll gonna be a heart attack, thank you. That's why I look at something else. It's got to have debilitated him, because if you have a stroker, you're in the throes of a heart attack, your body is not going to respond. And as I said before, if you're even partially in the water, you're going to breathe

it in, then you're going to drown it. Also, those also I able way to go maybe lend a little more credence to the fact that he did try to contact his wife. You know, the other theories that we've talked about, we say he was hallucinating, he was in a delirium, but people who are having these really huge psychotic breaks don't necessarily text their significant other and say I'm lost in the middle of the woods. You probably don't contact them, or you say don't you think about it?

Or you say you know the mushrooms are coming for me, or like something right. I mean, you're not gonna say very calmly, hey, I'm lost in the woods. And Grant said, I haven't seen the text, so I don't. I don't know exactly what his demeanor was, but it would also lead credence to you know, a heart attack or something where you say, okay, I was just getting out and this happened, or you maybe he had a heart attack and then a stroke. The the tone is stripped away.

That's why simple text messages can cause giant controversy because of the fact that you don't know which way they're meant to go or and they don't. I am lost does not say angrily I'm lost or panically who I mean? That doesn't come through. But none of those are hallucinatory reaction. True, that is a strange thing. I mean, you know, here does this looney thing, which is get off the bus, and he does a rational thing which to send a text to his wife. Yeah, so I don't know if

he was fading any hut or what I mean. Obviously, if he was having a stroke or having something that's going wrong, staying on the bus and telling the driver to go faster probably would have been a better solution. That was another four to six hours to his destination, or tell him the turn around. Oh you're saying, go faster so I can get to help. Yeah, okay, it's only a fifty four minute drive or something bad According to Google, which is probably on a bus, that's probably

like an hour and something. Um drive from uh point A to point B in the town El Rose, Ario or wherever it was close to it was. It's not that long, so they were pretty dang close. It would have been easy for him to say, I think something's wrong with me, get me a doctor. But it could have. All My point was he may have said, oh my god, something's wrong. Get me to Mexico City now, is the way I was saying. So when Joe says make the bust go faster, say he's no Ail Rosarios there, he

may not realize. But usually you would say I don't feel good, I need a doctor and they would just find a hospital or something. Right. As a good bus driver, you wouldn't just say okay, cool, get off right here, Yeah, that's here. Here's my catchphrase, rational thinking. If he but

that's I'm on your side on that. But I think you know, I I know enough about first aid and what people go through first aid care in general, emergency care, and what people go through with heart attacks, with strokes, with things of that nature, and the reaction is escape, just get out. That's one of the things they tell you to look for in situations like that is if someone's nervous and agitated, it's a huge sign that something going wrong inside their body and that you should get

them emergency care as soon as possible or administered. So again, so he stumbles around the darkness, falls into a mud puddle and having a heart attack stroke dies. That's it? Are we in Are we in consensus? Here? My I'm not locked into what caused it. I think that he had either a stroke or a heart attack, but I don't know what caused him to end up in the water. That's my problem is that I see one of those as leading him there, but I don't know why it came about. And and maybe it is just one of

those damn random things. But that that's so, I don't know that we're in consensus because I'm I'm not even settled or not even in consensus with yourself. No, No, as as usual. Yeah that I said to his family. Ever raised a stink about this with anybody raising his suspicions? No, No, I mean his his wife. You know. They she had him cremated, They had a ceremony. There was a bajillion luchadors there. Black Abyss. His career kind of ended after that. He tried to go on and take over the mantle

of a bismol negro. That didn't go on. He was going to go as a bismol negro too. That didn't work, Like I mean, but that was it. I mean, there's this whole weird thing in the luchador society, but she just she stepped away from it, as at least from the reporting side of what's been reported. Well, I mean that does lead credence to the fact that maybe there was something additional in the report, in the autopsy report, that they're just not making public, which would be understandable. Yeah, okay,

well there is that. So let's give everybody the the administrative details that they need to know, which is that this uh this episode and all other episodes are available on our website. We will of course have links to some of the research on this story. I will let everybody know that if you're going to do additional research, make sure you've got a browser that translates, because a lot of this is in Spanish, but you can. I will try and put some of the English versions on

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