Live on Sky News. This is Sharry.
Good Evening. Welcome to the show.
Well, massive breaking news as we speak. The hostage deal is now in disarray. I've got the latest news for you right now. I've just had confirmation from Israeli Prime Minister Benjaminette and Yahoo's office that the deal is currently not on the table because her Musk is pulling last minute stunts. I'll bring you that full detail and full analysis tonight with expert commentary. I've also got on the
show family members of current hostages. Throughout the program, will bring you the news as it happens and the ins and outs of this breaking news in just a moment. Also tonight, Deputy Liberal Leader Susan Lay has launched an internal investigation into why she failed to declare accommodation meals and transport funded by the Palestinian Authority. My exclusive story coming up, but first let's get into this breaking news.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahoo has released a statement saying that Hermas is backing out of elements.
Of the hostage deal.
This deal was celebrated globally today and it's now in disarray. It faces a major stumbling point. The deal was scheduled to be put to the Israeli Cabinet right now as we speak eleven am local time in Israel.
But now the cabinet.
Will not meet to vote on the deal until Hermas agrees to all existing elements. The Israeli Prime Minister's Office has released a statement tonight saying Hamas is backing out of the explicit understandings agreed upon with the mediators and Israel in a last minute blackmail attempt. Israel will not set a date for a cabinet and government meeting until the Mediators announce that Hermas has approved all the details
of the agreement. I understand, and I've got this first hand from the Prime Minister's Office that also playing into this decision was that there was rocket fire from Hamas in Gaza, both last night in Israel and this morning. This is not in the spirit of a ceasefire deal and a hostage release agreement, so that rocket fire has also played into this move. Now, this shouldn't be a surprise. Hamas is a terrorist group.
It's a bad.
Faith negotiator, a bad faith actor. Israel has had this very deal on the table since May twenty twenty four and Hamas only came to the negotiating table at the eleventh hour because Donald Trump said he'd unleash Hell. Now, we had been expecting to hear from Bedroom nettin Yahoo after Cabinet met.
That would have been in the next couple of hours.
But this is a huge delay now and it would be a massive disappointment for the family members of hostages who've now been held in Gaza for four hundred and sixty seven days. Now, while there is a pause in the deal, that could still go ahead if Hermas agrees to well stop firing rockets and agrees to the existing points on the table. If Hermas does that, if this deal is back on the table. This is how it will play out. There'll be three hostages, expected to be women,
who'll be released this Sunday. Then seven days later there'll be another four hostages released, so that's seven days in between hostages. After that, three hostages will be released every seven days, and then after nearly six weeks there'll be fourteen hostages freed. So in total, in this first stage of the deal, that would be thirty three hostages released, and we know sadly.
That not all are alive.
For some families, there would be beautiful reunions with their loved ones, but for others, they'd be welcoming home dead bodies. Now, this is one of the sticking points currently of the negotiation. This is why the hostage deal is up in the air, because Israel was meant to have veto power on all of the hardened terrorists that would have been released from
their own prisons. So in Israeli prisons there are Palestinian criminals and terrorists for the thirty three humanitarian hostages that Hamas was releasing, and these are women and children.
Israel was going to have to release or we'll have to release.
One thousand Palestinian criminals from Israeli prisons, and that includes at least two hundred and fifty terrorists who are said to have.
Had blood on their hands.
Now, Israel has insisted in these negotiations on having the veto power over which terrorists are released.
Which of the worst terrorists I released.
Her mask at this late hour, is now insisting on trying to dictate who'll be released from Israeli prisons. Even then, Israel has said they're not going to free them into Gaza, that they would want the hardened criminals who are serving life sentences if they are released to be sent to
a third country sent overseas. Now, just this evening on Sky on Chris Kenny's program, Liberal MP Julian Lisa said that he wants a guarantee from Anthony Alberizi that Australia won't be taking in these hardened Palestinian criminals.
Have a look.
So I think the Prime Minister has to make it very clear because those freed Palestinian prisoners, many of whom have committed violent crimes, are due to be sent to a third country. And I want the Prime Minister to guarantee to all Australians that he will not bring any Palestinian prisoner who spent time in Israeli jail to Australia because that will do nothing to make this country safer for all Australians.
It's a very important point and we do as Australians, need that guarantee from the Prime Minister. Now, this deal, if it does go ahead, and we expect ultimately it probably will given Trump has threatened to unleash Hell. This is a deal with the devil. It's far from what you'd call a good deal. It's deeply unjust because there's
no equivalence between innocent hostages and terrorists in prison. I mean, on the one hand, you have babies, children, mothers, sons, the elderly, all of them innocent Israelis who've been kidnapped. They're not prisoners of war. They should never have been abducted. There's no justice here. But this is a deal that Israel felt it had to do to bring its people home,
even though it's far from perfect. There will be happy reunions, there will be moments of pure joy in the weeks ahead, but there will also be incredible distress, no question, when we learn that some hostages who we prayed were a live were in fact killed by Hermas. And I can say I'm definitely not looking forward to the sight of innocent, beautiful people coming home in body bags. But that is what we're facing now and it will be a difficult time now.
One of those who.
Were set to be the first to be released and this first stage of the deal is Keith Siegel. He's the beloved husband of Aviva Seagull, who I met when I was in Israel. He's sixty five and he spent fifteen months now in cruel captivity. Aviva was also held hostage for fifty four days, and she spoke about the cruel way Keith was treated.
And we were just taken from her house in such a brutal way. On the way they pushed Keith and Brokie's rips and shot us. I remember seeing the bullets coming very close to my foot. I'm lucky, but they shot Keith on his hand. We arrived in Gaza while keep with bleeding and he was in such pain. The conditions were the worst conditions that you can think about. I just thought that I'm going to die, that kid's
going to die, and just think about it. When in such a brutal way tortured my husband that I've been married to forty five years. I wanted to scream and cry, and I wasn't allowed to cry or scream. I just had to keep myself quiet.
A Viva and her family they are warriors. A Viva has not stopped campaigning for the release of her husband and of all of the hostages, and we pray that Keith will be alive when he's.
Returned to her. We just don't know now.
It was incoming President Donald Trump who first broke the news that a deal had been done, and he posted on social media saying, we have a deal for the hostages in the Middle East.
They will be released shortly. Thank you.
But Joe Biden of course claimed that it was to his credit and he said this would be a permanent end to the war.
Phase two, which is a permanent end of the war. Let me say it again, a permanent end of the war. There are a number of details that negotiate to move from Phase one to Phase two, but the plan says if negotiations take longer than six weeks, the ceasefire will continue as long as the negotiations continue.
Now that's wrong, as I'll explain in a moment. But Albanizi also celebrated this cease fire.
Have a look.
I certainly hope and have consistently called for a lowering of the temperature here. Australians, I believe, wanted to see the hostage is released. They want to see an end to conflict. They also don't want conflict brought here. This is not the end. Importantly, this is a really important break through and stepped forward.
Peter Darton, in much stronger comments, spoke about how much is Raetius have been through over the past fifteen months.
We should never forget the carnage that took place on October seven, when Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, went in slaughtered, raped, pillaged the Kibbutzer's the music festival, where young people were struck down in their prime. Some of these people will be released shortly. They've been in captivity and in the hands of these barbarians for about fourteen months. It is
horrific and we should never forget that. And the fact that they're still held hostage and haven't been released by now is an absolute disgrace.
So as you just saw there from Joe Biden, there's naive politicians who are celebrating like it's the end of the war, but it's only a temporary cease fight if we even get one. Trey Yinks from Fox News reported today that Hamas is still thriving in Gaza, their green flag still waving on the.
Streets inside Gaza. We've seen scenes from the city of their Albala in the center part of the Gaza Strip, many Palestinians celebrating there, and video of Hamas gunmen parading through the streets. The reality on the ground is that Hamas remains in power, and Biden's own Secretary of State just yesterday said that they have recruited just as many fighters as they have lost.
And as he says, there is also unverified footage on social media that purports to show Palestinians and Hamas celebrating. They shouldn't be celebrating because having Hamas in power isn't good for the Palestinians and it's certainly not good for Israel. So despite Biden and even Albanesi's declarations, this hostage deal and temporary cease fire doesn't mean it's the end of the war, because Donald Trump has repeatedly vowed to help
Israel defeat Hamas and terrorism, and he means it. He will empower Israel rather than work against it and try to obstruct it like Joe Biden did with Netan Yahoo. Now there is some really sad news. Last night, I was very hopeful that the Bibas family might be brought home, but high level sources told me today that actually Israel
isn't hopeful that they'll be returned alive. I thought it's thought, and this is what the belief is in Israel, that the father may be alive, but not baby Kafir, brother Ariel, or mother Shiri. This beautiful family and these beautiful little boys. They had everything to live or they had their whole lives ahead of them, and they're now presumed by Israel to be dead. This isn't confirmed. It's not confirmed. This is just what in Israeli intelligence believes. I hope they're wrong.
With all my hard I hope they're wrong, But I'm reporting what high level Israeli sources, trusted sources, have told me today. Now, like I said, this is going to be a really, really tough and emotional six weeks. It's going to be an emotional rollercoaster. It's a tortured process where we may wait anxiously for an entire week for three hostages to be returned home to find that only
bodies are returned home. But among the pain, there will be joyous reunions and incredible celebrations, and we at least look forward to the pure elation at families being reunited after terrorism cruelly tore them apart along four hundred and sixty seven days ago. Now I've got full coverage of the hostage deal, of what's breaking in Israel on my show tonight I have expert analysis coming up in just a moment, but first I'm going to bring you this
exclusive report tonight. Deputy Liberal leader Susan Lay has launched an internal investigation into why she failed to declare accommodation, meals and transport funded by the Palestinian Authority. I put questions to her today about the expenses from her trip to the West Bank in twenty eleven. You can see her on that trip in this photograph. Susan Lay was a strong critic of Israel at the time, and she
was given a tour by the Palestinian officials. Now, other politicians who went with her on that trip, labor and Peas like Maria van Vkino and Jill Hall, and even Liberal MP Melissa Park, they did make declarations in their pecuniary interest register about gifted meals, transport and accommodation from the Palestinian Authority. Susan Lay was traveling on the same trip,
but made no declarations in her register of interests. Her office has told me this evening that they were now examining her declarations and I quote, our office will look into the question you've raised regarding a matter of declaration. Fourteen years ago. If correct, this would have been an administrative oversight. Susan has never hid from the fact that she was on the trip, indeed, she has spoken about it publicly on a number of occasions.
Now, this failure to.
Declare gifts like accommodation meals and transpot from the Palestinian authority is embarrassing for Susan Lay, and the revelation comes as concerns emerge about her ability to lead the policy argument on Israel if she were to take on the Foreign Affairs portfolio. Now, Peter Darton has a big decision to make about who will be his shadow Foreign Affairs Minister. These are the top contenders for the job, Dantian, James Patterson,
Julian Lisa, Dave Sharma and Susan Lay. Now the only reason Susan Lay is even being concer cited for this portfolio is because she's the deputy Liberal leader and the Liberal Constitution states that the deputy can choose her own portfolio. And the main reason Susan Lay's deputy is that after the last selection, when Scott Morrison was wrongly hounded over the Britney Higgins affair, there was the perception that the Coalition had a women problem, so Peter Dutton appointed a
woman as his deputy. He may not have made that choice otherwise. The deputy leader needs to come from the Lower House and there were limited options. The other women were either new MPs or lower profile MPs. So Susan Lay was appointed deputy and now, in the wake of Simon Birmingham's resignation, she has her sits on the Foreign
Affairs job. But as you know, the biggest political issue in foreign affairs right now is the Middle East and Israel's fight against terror on behalf of all Western civilization. It's a fight Trump supports unequivocally. And here's the thing. Susan Lay was a pro Palestinian advocate for some fifteen years, at least before she visited Israel for less than a week in late twenty twenty two and changed her perspective. That visit was after she became the Deputy Liberal Leader
in the wake of the May twenty twenty two election. Now, Susan Lay told me today that as Deputy leader, I have consistently held the government to account for their comprehensive and categorical failure to support Israel and our wonderful Jewish diaspora community on an almost daily basis since October seven. I always strive to be a voice of moral clarity and I never shy away from standing up for Australia.
Unlike this Labor government, it will always be Australia's national interest that dictates the coalition's foreign policy thinking, not electoral arithmetic.
Now I have to say, right up.
I applaud Susan Lay for being open to visiting Israel, for changing her views. If only more people have this attitude. And she has been incredibly strong in her commentary since October seven and before, and I've broadcast on this program her many questions to Albanizi in Parliament where she hounded him over his hostility towards Israel. But the inescapable reality is Susan Lay's commentary over at least fifteen years was hostile towards Israel. It's at times been as bad as
anything Albanisi or Penny Wong said. In twenty seventeen, just four and a half years ago, Susan Lay spoke about her long standing affinity with the Palestinians and made shocking accusations against Israel.
I Rise today to remind the Parliament that in June it was fifty years since the Arab Israel Six Day War, the conflict that empowered the State of Israel but began fifty years of occupation of Palestinian land. Is seen from very different points of view. As someone with a long term affinity for the Palestinians, including co chairing this Parliament's Friendship Group over many years, I wish to highlight the Palestinian perspective between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Half the residents all more live as either second class citizens or non citizens because they are Palestinian. In the West Bank, a third of the Palestinian population is under fourteen. Less than five percent would remember a time without Israeli occupation.
So you just heard there Susan lay accuse Israel of occupation. She's also described the highly necessary security fence as a separation wall, and she's criticized Israel for refusing to allow the return of expelled refugees. In other speeches in Parliament, she accused Israel of confiscating Palestinian land and said that
Gaza was on the brink of starvation. In twan one and eleven, she expressed support for Palestinian's statehood, which at the time was even to the left of the Labor Party have a look.
I support the Palestinian bid for statehood in part because it will give heart to the ordinary people of the West Bank and Gaza.
In a two thousand and eight speech, Susan Lay said, and I quote, Israel has many friends in this country and in this parliament. The Palestinians, by comparison, have few theirs. Is not a popular cause, but it is one I support in part out of knowledge that the victors in World War II, including Australia, wrote a homeland check to cover the sins of the Holocaust and centuries of anti Semitism in Europe, but it was the Palestinians who had
to cash it. I find that particularly shocking because it feeds into the narrative that the Jews don't belong in Israel, when in fact, Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel and lived there for thousands of years before Islam was even invented. Now in as recently as twenty eighteen, Susan Lay met with the Australian Palestinian Advocacy Network, whose current leader Nasa Mashni.
Has described Jews as filth.
So again, Susan lay She did see first hand the situation in Israel. She has been extremely sympathetic to Israeli since then, and she has taken the fight up to Penny Wong. But the other contenders for the Foreign Affairs portfolio, especially Julian Lisa, James Patterson and Dave Sharma, all have an in depth and highly intellectual understanding of the complexities and history of the Middle East. They didn't change long held views to support Israel a year or so before October seven.
They have always This is such a key point.
They have always been aligned with Australia's official foreign policy stance and our national interest and it's just obvious that any one of them would be a more natural, qualified choice for the Foreign Affairs portfolio. If Susan lay Force is the issue, there would be accusations that the Liberals had succumb to Dei, that her appointment was owing to her gender rather than merit, and merit should win out on all occasions, particularly with such an important role as
Foreign affairs that's so crucial to our future and national security. Okay, let's return to the breaking news now. Confirmation from Israeli Prime Minister Benjaminettaya, who's office that the hostage deal is on pause. It is not going to go to cabinet now in Israel, as it was scheduled to at eleven am local time. Let's bring in two experts on this issue.
I'm joined now by the CEO of the International Legal Forum and senior fellow at the Misgarv Institute for National Security, Arsenostrowsky, irregular on the show, and the former Press office director of the Prime Minister's office, Daniel Seaman.
Welcome to you both. Arson. Let's start with you.
What are you hearing and are you surprised that this hostage deal is now under threat?
No, I don't think anyone should be surprised. You know, cheetahs don't change their spots in order. Terror groups like Hamas this is a last minute of tempt essentially by them to extort and blackmail Israel into making even further concessions, specifically here into having a say on the terraces that are supposed to be released. This is something that is outside the scope of the agreement, something outside what the
parties had agreed to along with the mediators. So essentially there's a Hamas trund to blackmail Israel in the last second off the negotiations and just before the signing of any agreement.
Daniel, we are hearing that one of the sticking I'm hearing that one of the sticking points in the deal were two sticking points. One is that there was still rocket fire from Hamas last night in Israel and this morning.
You would be well aware of that.
But also that Hermas is now demanding that they decide which Palestinian terrorists are released from Israeli prisons. Why is it important that Israel has veto over this decision.
Well, that was part of the arrangement, and obviously it's necessary because Israel can determine who among these Hamas former terrorists who were apprehended by Israel.
It's quite clear that they're not going to go and retire now and live their lives in harmony and in search of peace. So we want to be very careful who we allow out there because of the influence they'll have on their own society, a society which, by the way, since last night has been cheering this as a huge victory, but that should be expected. The other thing is that they're all claiming that they are all members of Kamas and they're going to now they will avenge the death
of Sinoar. So we have to be very careful with what we do and who we release, so to at least have the possibility of the ceasefire being respected and honored. Not that we've had anything from the past that can make us believe that this is this will happen. What is happening right now with Haamas is quite clear that they're once again trying to take advantage of the situation. It's nothing new. This happened with the situation with Hissbellah, it happened with the peace treaty, or or with the
ceasefire that was reached in Lebanon. Ribellah has been consistently and persistently trying to violate it or trying to get advantages because Israel is not there. The thing is that there's a difference now between what they've been used to because in the past Israel would usually complain to the to the countries that have given us that had promised that this would be observed. Now we're not doing that anymore.
And the same thing is going to happen in Gaza with come and this by the actions taken by the Prime Minister is making it very clear to them that what they were used to in the past is not going to happen anymore. The Middle East has changed, Israel's has changed, and they should be aware that either they fulfill the appuirements and what they agreed to, or they will suffer the consequences us in what.
I've been struggling with with this deal, and absolutely I one hundred percent think and not just as a mother, but as a human, I think there's no measure you wouldn't go to to bring hostages home. But what I struggle with is why couldn't America Qatar Israel have forced her Musk into a better deal. I mean, her mass is virtually eliminated. So how did they have so much negotiating power to demand one thousand prisoners be released, to
demand only three hostages a week? You know, it just doesn't seem like a good deal.
Look, there are a lot of things here that certainly don't done that up, and these difficult hours and days, and you know, I think as united in the beginning your introduction, there's certainly some sense of relief, certainly for the hostage hostage families that about said the loved ones. But this is no celebration. There were no easy choices. Yeah, there was only painful decisions that had to be made, and essentially Israel had to make a deal with the
devil in order to secure the release of our loved ones. Unfortunately, this was the only deal on the table. It should not have been the case, but these are the circumstances. So yes, it does come with some element of risk. But you know, we're also taught that whoever saved the life,
it is as though they saved the entire world. You know, we're dealing on the one hand, it's this sort of morbid equation where children, women who have been brutally raped, assaulted, elderly wounded, and on the other hand you're dealing with
a terrorists, bloodthirsty murderers who are to be released. But for Israel, in Jewish state, the prerogative is to secure the release of hostage and that was absolute paramount because whereas we place the ultimate progative on life, they place their prerogative on death.
Daniel, it is going to be very hard for Israel emotionally when and provided this deal goes ahead, when there are weeks, you know, when families or people are going to be looking forward to the release of three hostages and it's body bags that come home.
Yep, this whole situation is heart wrenching. I know that everybody knows. Not only in the past year and three months in which we've come to know the families, many of us have direct connections to them. My daughters good friends with Nama Levi. We hear now that the first five who are to be released are the soldiers who were taken on that day. Nama is known from that infamous photo of her being dragged out of the jeep and bloodied, and so we have a personal feeling and stake in this.
So it is.
What can you say? You described it perfectly in your opening here. We also all of us know somebody who has fallen. My son had a friend who he grew up with in the high school fell in battle just a month ago. So these things are This is a
situation we're in. At the moment, there will be tremendous joy and satisfaction in them being sent home, but at the same time we know that there's a lot that they're not telling us, and they're using this for psychological elements of psychological warfare that they conduct against us in order to tear apart our society, but also to cause pain amongst us. And you asked about the conditions. They're not looking for a Ceasepier. They don't care about the
sea spire, They're not looking for an exchange. The whole purpose of what they're doing is to cause pain and emotional trauma among Israelis. They just don't understand.
I think that's exactly right.
Hamas hasn't cared about Yestinian civilians the entire way through. If they did, they wouldn't have launched the attack on Israel on October seven in the first place, because obviously they would know that Israel would need to retrieve its hostages, bring its people home and respond. So, you know, but any people it sacrifices.
We have to remember that their population elected them. These are not They did not impose themselves among the Palistina. And even at this moment, the Arabs and Gaza are saying very clearly that they continue to support Kamas. So when you vote and you elect and you support something, they continue to support the actions against Israel. There are consequences to that, as they've learned in the leear in past year, in three months.
Yeah, all right, Arsenostrovsky and Daniel Seamen really appreciate your expert analysis on this deal tonight.
Thank you.
Now, after the break we're going to look at as well the Australian who's feared executed by Russia. Have Robert Potter and Michael Downby on the show. Going to return to this hostage deal. I've got a family member of a current hostage will join me live. Stay tuned, welcome back. Well, if you're just tuning in, we have the breaking news tonight that Hermas has renegged on key parts of its deal with Israel. The hostage deal is now up in
the air. Israel has delayed its cabinet meeting this morning local time Israel, where it was due to officially pass the treaty. So we'll bring you more news as that unfolds, but at this point in time, the hostage deal.
Is up in the air.
This situation will be causing incredible anxiety for the family members of the hostages. One of them is the family members of Deron Steinbrecher. Last March, veterinary nurses family marked her thirty first birthday without her.
She's not a soldier, she's not a prisoner of war. Under the terms of the now.
Under threat hostage agreement, Diane Bracker would have been released in the first phase, which includes women and children. And I'm joined now by her cousin, Michail Mayo. Michal, thank you.
Very much for joining us now perfectly you.
Would have just heard the news about this deal now being under threat. I mean, how difficult is this for you to have to deal with this emotional roller coaster of this being on and off again.
Absolutely, these are the worlds. It's an emotional roller coaster. My family is strong. We believe the wrong is alive. We want her back. We want all the other ninety eight hostages. We want everyone to bring backs, but to be back.
Yeah. Those who have.
Died deserve a proper burial in Israel, and those who are alive need to be brought back to heal and recover with your families.
We are worried. Have you had any proof of life for Doron do Ronnie? Do you know?
Do you You say you believe she's alive, but have you heard anything officially?
Yeah, we had a voice recording which she said when they took her. She's saying, they caught me, They caught me, They caught me. She sent it on October seventh at ten approximately ten forty am am in the morning to a family it us, and then on the one hundred and seventh day, Hamas released a video. You can definitely see there that she's not in a good condition. My cousin suffered from a chronicle illness. She needs medications. She
definitely not getting there. This was almost almost a year ago. Yeah, at the one hundred and seventh day, they're very cautious with this deal. The responsibility for securing the dealers with Hamas, and people ask if you are excited. There is some excitement, but worried.
A lot of trepidation, a lot of anxiety. You know, there was always the possibility that something was going to go wrong. There'd be a snag, and even at even if the first three hostages were released on Sunday, at any point over the next six weeks, something could go wrong. You know, I just don't know how you're getting through every day.
Michael.
We really appreciate you joining us and for speaking out and fighting.
For your cousin. Thank you, Thank you very much.
Now, coming up after the break, We're going to look at whether Albinizi has responded strongly enough to Russia after reports that it executed a young Australian. I'll be joined by Robert Potter and Michael Danby, and a bit later we're going to cross back live to Israel and I'll be joined by the former head of the IDF hostage Affairs Unit. He's going to take us behind the scenes of negotiating with terrorists. This is a big show tonight,
don't miss it. Welcome back, all right. I'm joined now by Internet two point zo co founder Robert Potter and former Labor and P Michael Danby.
Welcome to you both, evening.
Look, Australia is still trying to officially confirm reports that Oscar Jenkins has been executed by Russian forces after fighting in Ukraine. Robert, you have spent you're basically living in Ukraine at the moment. What do you think Australia needs to do to put pressure on Russia to confirm whether or not Oscar is alive.
Well, the first thing we need to do is recognize that Russia only respects strength. A simple diplomatic response isn't going to get us the proof of life we want, we need to impose costs on Russia, and that means providing support to Ukraine and making it explicit that this is in retaliation to human rights abuses by the Russian government.
We also need to establish that a person with a gun to the face of an Australian prisoner of war is going to face consequences, and a simple diplomatic response that isn't backed up by significant financial support to the Ukrainian government isn't going to deter a Russian from shooting an Australian soldier in the face.
It's pretty extraordinary.
Michael Danby, you also have visited Ukraine on numerous occasions. You are quite an expert in this area. How do you think Australia and Penny Wong should be responding.
Exactly as Robert sees. We've got hundreds of these Hawkeye vehicles in sheds all over Australia, Ship them to the Ukrainian straight away, send them on the big aeroplanes that can airlift them there, and boot out the Soviet sorry Russian ambassador.
So you both think the Russian ambassador ambassador should be expelled at this point in the battlefield.
Kick him out, Robert.
Yes, if you've shot a prisoner of war, what's the diplomatic relationship? And it can't just be something we reset to in six months time. It has to be a financial penalty on the Russians that we know is going to harm Russian soldiers on the battlefield.
Yeah, all right.
I spoke at the start of the show about Peter Duten's reshuffle of his shadow Cabinet. The highly prized Foreign Affairs spokesman role is up for grabs. The contenders James Patterson, Dave Sharma, Julian Lisa Dantean and Susan Lay. Robert, you know there are concerns about Susan Lay in this role.
What is your view?
I don't think she's a heavyweight. I've worked pretty well with other members that have been proposed as alternatives for the Foreign Minister role. It's a key it's a key posting and it needs to go to somebody who's got a consistent track record of supporting Australian policy.
Michael dowanby what do you think?
Well, my parliamentary experience tells me that you need to have someone in the same chamber as Penny warng So therefore I would put Sharma and Patterson as the front runners. And I agree with Steve Conroy that Patterson is the standout opposition person over the last three years. But he's doing so well in that portfolio if I was done, and I'd be reluctant to shift him, and I think Sharma is wasted, so I'd give him a leg up.
Yeah, he look at Sharma's as well, certainly experienced in the area, and agree with you Jameis Patterson, Well, he already had a minister resigned, didn't he in Andrew Giles. Now let's return to this breaking news tonight that the hostage deal is now under threat. Robert Potter, you know, there was a lot of celebration for this hostage deal today, but you know, we still don't have answers about how is America and Israel going to get rid of her mass,
how does her must not remain in power? So there are still difficult questions that need answering here.
Yes, I don't think celebrating early is ever a good idea when it comes to Middle East and negotiations. AMASA is known to be tricky and always tries to make extra demands at the end and trying to determine which mass murder it gets released from Israeli prisoner prisons in exchange for what could be bodies of hostages is just not going to look good for the politician who tries to go around doing a victory lap.
Right now, Michael, you know the hostage deal is now up in the air. Hamas isn't sticking by that one point that Robert just referred to, where Israel has veto over which terrorists are released from their own prisons. Hamas wants to dictate.
That as well.
I mean, you know, the biggest concern is that another Sinhwa is released, because that's what happened when Gillard Charlotte was free from Gaza in exchange for one twenty seven Palestinians from Israeli prisons.
One of them was ya Ya Sinha.
Well, this is a very harsh deal for the Israelis, but it's personally underwritten by this envoy of the President of the United States. So I hope those hummus freaks in Anchora and Gas are understand that they're going to double cross the Donald and I hoping Unleasha's hell on them if they do. These poor people haven't been visited Charri once by the International Committee of the Red Cross. I personally won't be giving the Red Cross a dollar anymore.
It's a complete negligence of the poor ninety eight people who have been tortured, raped, and all of the kinds of things that happened to them in those depraved Humusk tunnels.
And Robert, you know, the international community, I don't think you know, as Michael just referred to, it hasn't put enough pressure on a Hamas or on its backers, the nations that were harboring the Harmas leaders. If that pressure had been brought in such a strong way I'm talking sanctions a year ago, we.
Might be in a different situation.
Now, absolutely right. And getting the hostages back has always been the military goal here. Getting back bodies in exchange for dozens of mass murderers is just setting us up for another conflict. We need a pathway to peace, not a pathway to another round of violence.
And that's the concern Michael, that you know, there is the criticism that this deal will encourage hostage taking, because you know, the lesson for terrorists is that they take hostages, they can make any demands are you worried that that will be one of the unfortunate outcomes of this deal provided it goes ahead.
Well, of course, the Sinewa and Charlitte deal previously led directly to this one and to their plan to seize hostages. It's a terrible deal which Nettao has had to agree to because the pressure from the United States as much as anything. But what we don't know, Shari, is what the secret reasoning is behind why Nettannal has agreed to
do this. I hope is a bigger benefit with Iran that he is secured from the incoming president of the United States, who's owed the entire credit for what we've got so far, to the extent we've got it, much more so than the poor old fellow who is claiming credit couldn't do anything over the last years. In tragic broadcast today where he said that the Israeli had been attacked by Hezbollah, I can't even remember the name of the terrorist organization.
No, he was hopeless, and everyone knows it's the fact that Trump is about to be president in a number of days. That is the only reason Harmas came to the table. But that would be interesting. Michael if, as you say, Trump has indicated he might support Israel to attack Iran's nuclear or other defense sites in return for this, but we don't know that. That's pure speculation on our part. Network just couldn't want the hostages free. That could be
his only motivation. All right, Robert Potter Micha could down be great to have you both on the show.
Thank you. Now, I don't go anywhere.
The former head of the IDFs, that's Israeli Defense Forces Hostage Affairs Unit will join.
Me right after this quick break.
Okay, let's bring in this very impressive guest. Now, Advanced Lieutenant colonel and former head of the Hostage Affairs Unit for the Israeli Defense Force, Avikrlo joins me now live from Israel.
Avi.
Thank you very much, really appreciate your time. You were actually quite involved in this negotiation as well. One of the elements that's been so controversial are the one thousand, two hundred Palestinian criminals and terrorists who will be released from Israeli prisons. Can you tell us a bit about that process and where they'll be sent offshore and how Israeli families who are victims of those terrorists would have to be notified.
Yeah, thanks Sherry for having me first, and we do hope for obviously the outcome of this crisis point tactical crisis to be end soon and the deal will start
to embark hopefully early next week. So with regard to what you've been asking, there is a unique procedure in Israel that deals with the aspects of a victim of terror that being offended by those massive murders that want to be released during this hostage deal, that have the entitlement to approach the Supreme Court in Israel, who as you know, highly prestigious on the international community as well to appeal against the government for the release of those
accused murderers. The DOJ, the Israel Department of Justice, must publish forty eight hours prior to the release of those mass murders of being in jail obviously for dozens of years, most of them for life sentence. So the DJ must publish the list of the prisoners and the families has the ability to obviously to appeal to the Supreme Court
and claim against the release. Usually Supreme Court in Israel keeps the freedom of action for the political level in this regard and usually the not interfering such a political decision, which is obviously a common practice not only in Israel, but also one global scale.
So this is a very complicated national security process for Israel because it's going to be releasing hardened criminals, including terrorists to committed terror attacks. It has been said that Israel will be sending some of these offshore overseas.
Where will they go, well.
At least according to initial understandings here on the local arena, I would say that they are going to be deported abroad from Israel, some of them definitely not to the West Bank where there is a high tension between Israelis and Palestinians back there on the Palestinian cities of the West Bank. Most of the most of the origins of
those prisoners are from the West Bank. So they are going to be released mainly abroad in order to obviously minimize the threat that they are setting for the national security of the Israeli people here. Mainly main countries that you could consider is cut out Turkey, Egypt, and other Gulf states around the region here, and probably also some from Europe, for example in the Schalidian which you mentioned
earlier in the previous interview. Some of the prisoners were deported to Ireland and even to France, so we had some other opportunities back there. That depends on the obviously a negotiation that the government is dealing with other governments around the globe in order to depot those prisoners in a very specific I would say, strict conditions about the way that they're going to handle the states were going to be hosted in.
You think that would be a huge political issue in any European country that has to take these Palestinian terrorists. Now you worked, you led the hostage affairs unit, looking at this deal, Is this the sort of deal you would have designed, three hostages being released each week?
You know, what do you think about that?
Well, it's extremely complicated negotiation, an extremely complicated deal that sat or its origins are based on the Biden initiative set by President Biden on November twenty on May twenty twenty three, and obviously the situation is that the we're talking here about a phased approach deal, which obviously stretch the timeline of the deal and make it even more complicated and more I would say concerned with regard to the possible implication of breaching such a deal due to
the time frame that it needs to be conducting, meaning that we have a wide timeline of three months almost for the release of all those hostages in a very phased approach that actually meets at the end some tensions on ground. The battlefield is still kind of boiled in a way, and the tensional ground is obvious, and the idea is obviously operasionally ready for any clashes with the Hamasteris.
So there must be some There may be some developments on ground that will take situations back in regard to the ability to implement the agreement once they will be clashes on ground. So it's going to be very complicated to implement such an agreement for such a long time of implementation.
We've had the breaking news, of course tonight as we went to a that this hostage deal is not going to the Israeli cabinet at least not this morning Israel time, because Hamas has breached key elements of the deal.
Do you expect this will get back on track?
Well, I do assess cautiously. As I know Hamas for almost twenty years, I would say, and I know also some of the mediators and the characters that deeply involved in the negotiation currently, I would say cautiously that I would assess that at the end those tactical recent or just last minute blackmails of Hamas, which is by the way, a common practice that we know from telst organization in
the Middle East. Not only Hamas but also Chrizbeala conducted the same methods of operation when it was in ostages deal with this organization, these Lebanies organization back in fifteen and twenty years ago. But same practices are being adopted by Hamas. By the brother of yeh Mohammad Sinhua was now taking the lead of Hamas on ground in Gaza.
So we do assess that this this last minute crisis are part of the need or the i would say stress of Hamas to gain some more assets before the final and really signed here.
But one of the things they wanted was Sinoa's body. That was a demand that they kept making.
Well, a Sinil body obviously is captivated in the hands of the Israeli authorities currently and if Israel will decide to release it, then it will have harsh demands for Hamas in this regard. We have some as you know, Sherry, we have some soldiers who I've also personally been involved in the cases that have been kidnapped and the remains are still in the hands of Hamas from the twenty fourteen military campaign in Gaza.
So we have some out of time, but I am so grateful for you joining us tonight. Thank you very much for your expertise. All right, that's all we have time for now. I'll see you Monday at eight o'clock. Thank you for watching this week. And here's Paul Murray