Today on Shared Lunch, we're taking a moment to remember Nigel Latter, who passed away last week at the age of fifty eight. As most New Zealanders know, Nigel was a true Kiwi icon, someone who tackled urgent, complex topics with curiosity, honesty, and warmth. As an author and a broadcaster, he made psychology and big national issues feel relatable and real. Nigel made time for everyone, including us, and we're grateful
to have had the chance to talk with him. Today we're resharing that conversation as a tribute to Nigel with his personal and thoughtful reflections on how to talk to kids and faro about money and connecting those conversations to what really matters our values.
So thanks so much for Green to have a yarn to me about kids and money and all that fun stuff. Do you want to tell us a bit about you and what your interests are?
I never ever expected to be on Telly, like I grew up in the east coast of South Oland. It's like I don't know, like it was just I don't
list all. A lot of us is mysteriou to me how any of this happened, but so so for me it's kind of like, so most people kind of know me from that point where I started doing the Tally stuff, but I like twenty something years of doing clinical stuff before that, and so most of my clinical work was kind of teenagers and families and they're sort of what used to be suspects now that I rang out to Mariki stuff in prisons and sort of all of that, and so I kind of come out of that and
then into TV like literally everything that we ever makes me going, I don't know anything about this thing. I'm going to go and talk to some people who know, and then I basically just go around asking questions because I don't know what's going on. But still somehow people think that's me saying I know stuff, and like no, I'm really not, Like I'm literally just bumbling about the place chatting to people who do know stuff, which is
actually that's the best part of it. I guess, like if I really think about the stuff that interests me, it's like it really is about how do you I understand people and what's going on with people? And then it's like how do you take that sort of complicated stuff and simplify and make it easier for people? To understand. And that's where Tally's really good. Like, I think a lot of psychologists get really anxious about doing media stuff because they think, oh, I can't give a full nuanced
answer this really complicated question. And it's like, well, no you can't. Like so you can't you can't cover them off because you'll get twenty or thirty seconds and they'll cut you out. But I think what we can do is, I think it is really important to be kind of actively trying to help people to understand stuff. And what doing TALLY is really greater at is you have to make really complicated things simple.
You're obviously very in tune with parents and families from a lot of your research and know you have looked into money and children and yeah those dynamics too. Yeah what lengths did you have to go to kind of explore that topic.
Yeah, So we made the kind of mind of a money show a few years ago an Shua Kiwi bank definitely Qui Bank great. They would just said, here's a bunch of money. You guys know what you're doing, make a TV show. So it was really good. We kind of talk about like the secret engine, so you have to have some kind of intellectual kind of secret engine basis to the content that you're talking about, and then
try to make that kind of interesting for people. So we started thinking about this idea of kind of money personalities, and there is some stuff around that that you know there some of us are more about security, and some of us more about experiences, and some of us, you know, money is about freedom, it's about the social stuff. And so money is just like what we do with their money fundamentally just reflects the values of who we are.
I mean, like I say, some people they just can't say because it's like they just want that dopamine rush of stuff. So it's like there are understanding I think your kind of money personality. And again, like I think that taps a lot into kind of temperament, and it taps a lot into kind of your kind of values and how you see the world. But that's another thing, getting humans to think long term, to think about the future, and that's really hard because we're not used to that.
We're made for, you know, basically prehistoric times. We've got these one hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand year old brains. We're doing enormously complicated stuff with them. But they're still the same old brains. So they struggle with imagining the future and these really abstract kind of concepts because you know, they're more likely to be caught by you know, the little aptic go is bing, you've got three coins? Did I all amazing?
Do you know say that's complicated for humans? Do you wonder if it's in some ways easier for kids without dreaming about the future of what could come next?
I think the children what you can do is you can kind of model stuff, and you can start to set up some habits and things, and so, you know, for a lot of people, like I kind of grew up on a house where we never really talked about money, Like it wasn't a thing that anyone ever talked about, and so I didn't really have any understanding of that kind of stuff. And it was because you know, like my dad was a builder and my mom was a mum, and it was just like their world was you work
your money and then you spend it on stuff. And so like I remember, like as a young man reading that Richard Kiyosaki rich Dad, poor Dad thing and thinking, man, this passive income stuff, this sounds pretty good, Like I want me some of that, but like that wasn't stuff that I ever learned, and so I do think it's important for parents to to kind of talk to kids about that stuff and to talk about you know, to find ways to teach them that sort of delayed gratification stuff.
So like when I remember, like my boys were little, they had the pocket money thing, right, and they would just get like we didn't make them save it, and we just said, well, look it's yours. You can decide what you do. And so my youngest guy, he was like every week ago and buy some two dollars crappy little thing and that would break and break and break. But his brother would kind of save up and he
would you know, get bigger, cooler stuff. And so eventually the younger one thought I must start saving the stuff. He had to go through that. It is like when you first when you first get money, and it's like your own money, that's a pretty amazing thing. I remember my first job when I and I'm so old, I got a check book and I remember thinking, oh my god, like a check book, all right, checks for stuff. It does feel kind of quite free and amazing. So you do have to go through that phase of kind of
doing dumb stuff with it. But it's really helpful if you can start that conversation I think earlier with kids so they can start thinking about things like interest and delayed gratification and yeah, you can spend it all now or you could, but because that's about self control and self regulation and lots of really good skills.
So for those that are thinking about setting up their kids with pocket money, how did you what do they need to do together their pocket money? And then also do you think you would go about look you choose what you do with it for a while, or actually, for certain money personalities, we're going to teach you spend, save, gift or whatever, you know, because actually I know you're just going to do whatever you want with it.
You know. Yeah. Yeah, Well, So what I think is like this, I don't think there's any kind of rights or wrong, and I don't think there's any one sort of hard research sciences based on So I do think we know some stuff about about the stuff that you know, how we spend money, and it is that stuff about you know, saving someone, spending stuff and fun stuff and giving stuff we like that makes that kind of makes
people feel better. So it's like, it's like all things parenting, you know, you have to like the more you understand about your kid and the attemperament and how they're wired together and how they see the world, then you can do some different things for them. Because for some kids it'll be like I've got it and now I'm going to spend it and what I don't know. I'm just going to throw it out the window because it feels cool, and other kids. He was like, man, you would say
this do you're a hundred and you wouldn't. You wouldn't do anything with it. And so it is I think about that that first thing of when they first start to kind of get some pocket money and get a little bit of money. It's that it's like every other every other part of parenting. It's like, what kind of kid do I have? And how is their temperament? How is this going to work out for them later on? And what are the skills that I need to start
teaching them now around the stuff. So if I've got a little spender, you know, I'm going to let that blow on for a bit so they can get that out of the system and then just start kind of gently file ways to kind of to bring it back. So, like you know, with my youngest, we didn't have to step in and make a policy. He just kind of got there himself. But if he just kept doing it, then I think we would have probably had some more focus conversations with him about like what do you like,
what's the what's what's going on now? You know, and then we might have done some stuff like Okay, we're gonna we're going to take a fifty percent tax off you. It's called the future tax, and we're going to put this in this jar and you have to pay it because we're the government. This helders. And then at a certain time, we'll see how much is there and you
can you can spend it on some stuff. Well, then you can make a decision about whether you increase your tax rate or what you do like that that kind of stuff.
I'm really intrigued on what people what kids should be remunerated for with pocket money, Like how do you make sure their money are aware but not money hungry or money fearful? You know?
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it should be kind of values driven in your home, So like all families need to kind of figure out, like what are the values that drive our family and no one's got the you know, it's it's it's about finding the stuff that works for you. And so I personally, I think it's a good thing for kids to like pocket money and stuff that you get because you do some stuff to help out. And so if you do the stuff to help out, then you get paid, because it's kind of
how the world is. And I know other people don't. They just just give it to their kids. And I don't think either strategy is right or wrong. I just think they are I think I think what people can do sometimes is they can just chuck money at kids and they have no sense of the value of it and they just waste stuff. And I don't think that's
a good thing to do that. I think to have some sort of consciousness of the fact that actually, you know, this comes from somewhere, you know, like you losing your shoes at school for like the third time, that stuff comes from somewhere. So I think that you know, it's that consequential learning stuff about money is still fundamentally it's a resource that you have to make decisions about, and if you make poor decisions, then you end up in not such a great place.
I remember when I had my children and I was becoming a parent, I was like, there's all these humans out there, it can't be that hard. Well, and then I thought there has to be a formula, like why isn't there a formulator like how to raise his child or how you know?
And it kind of is right, I mean, there is a way of kind of there are some frameworks that you can apply to people, the temperament stuff, so that you can kind of understand because we all kind of we all kind of have a basic temperament, right You're you're an introvert or an extrovert, your you know, more intense or less intense, and that's we We're kind of
keep that through our whole life. But it changes over a life as well, and so that's the really important but to kind of figure out what your kid's temperament is and then apply the things that work to that. Because really persistent, which is the nice way of saying stubborn kids. They're very different to the more kind of easy going quick do without to change kids.
Yeah, I've got both. I call a strong.
World because you have to it's not what we mean.
I do need to touch on that introvert extra because I feel like I hear all the time, you know that being used, and I also hear all we shouldn't be using that. It's not actually how people are well.
No, so that the temperament stuff's been around for over fifty years, and so what the extrast stuff is talking about? I think, I think what people get tangled up and they think there's a good one and a bad one, and they're not like extroverts have their things going and
introverts to their thing going. That they're both introverts and introverts like people, but introverts find it draining to be around people and they fill up in quiet time, and extroverts get their energy from being around people and they find it draining being alone, and so like understanding that basic thing about yourself is fundamentally important by nature. I'm an introvert, so I find long periods of doing it social stuff like it's really tiring. I just need a
little bit of quiet time. Weirdly, my partner is a real extrovert, and so for her it's kind of the opposite, but it's still kind of worked. And so it's not like there's not a good one or a bad one. They both have. There's both good and bad things about all of that. Just like you know, there are having a strong will kid is draining and exhausting. But those are the kids when the will goes you can't do that, they go shut up, I can't and they just do it,
you know. And the kids who are more flexible, what they do is they find another way around it, or they're better at working with teams of people, all that kind of stuff. So there are good or bad temperaments. It's just who we are and then understanding that and trying to figure out how to use that.
Yeah, personally, I've noticed myne change that's becoming a parent too. I think I was more extroverted and now I find if I can get a bit of a loan time, I'm like.
Yeah, yeah, that's just survival. That's just like even kids, even if you're an ext of it, kids will scoop all of that out of you, and you just you just want to be away from tiny grasping fingers. It's like just I just want peace of just no one demanding stuff or anythings if something is my fault.
Yeah, what are some top tips that it might not just be parents, grandparents, anybody in a child's life, What are some things that you wish you saw people do more? When that interacting with children when it comes.
To money, money is just another way to teach kids' values and to show kids the stuff that's important for you. And so the way that you spend money and what you spend it on, that's that's just like the way you treat other people when you're out and about with your kids, Like that's teaching them things about your values, and they're looking at your values and making their decisions. So so I kind of think it's about, Okay, you just have to decide that values based stuff like how
do how do we think you look after people? And how do we look after each other? And how do we treat other people? And I think you just have to be kind of values driven so that regardless of kind of how much money you have with your kids, that they are kind of making values based decisions about what they do with it. Parenting is essentially it's a long conversation, and so it's not like you do one thing and it's like, okay, we've done that. We did
money from seven to nine, and now that's sorted. It's just this continuous kind of ongoing conversation when you.
Reflect on yourself as a dad and how you've interacted with money with your children or what you've installed in them as anything you're really proud of, like a moment where you're like, oh, I think that really helped them.
So I think one of the things that we kind of tried to do is like, I think it's fine to give your kids stuff, but you should give them stuff because you want to give them stuff, not just because they expect it or whatever. And so you know, when it comes a little word, we do stuff. But I remember again the youngest guy, I think we're in Queenstown or something, and he wanted this silver money box thing from Smuggle and like he never he was actually
really mallow cutler, He would never have. He had this full on, two hour long meltdown because he had I don't know, four bucks or something and it was going to cost four dollars fifty and I chose that moment to teach him a little money lesson, and like to be honest, about twenty minutes and I was thinking, oh, man, I shouldn't we should just give them the kid the fifty cents because it's just getting really boring. It's like,
I don't believe that he didn't. He hasn't sat down and say, you know, Baba, that day in Queenstown changed my heart look on life. He just remembers being really angry about us at the time. So if I look back to my too, I actually think it's more about their too, individual little personalities and temperaments are like I didn't think. I don't think it was anything any of that stuff that we didn't need necessary that made a difference.
But I think as part of I think you need to see the money conversations with kids as being part of all of that stuff. Like so it's a really important part of life. And too, as they get older, I think you have to have conversations with them about the wider world of money, because like they're there. You know.
It is things like you know, the counter narrative that poor people are poor because they're lazy and they do work hard, and it's like, well, actually most people are poor because they get paid the minimum wage and so they're actually working seventy or eighty hours a week. Like, well, now we've gone out and talked to and I've worked in homes and your famis where they're working far harder
than I've ever worked. And so you know, the things like having conversations with your kids about how they think about stuff, because they get to vote at some point, so you have to decide, like, you know, what do you think about all the stuff about taxes and tax rates, and do we help other people out or do we just all help our soals? And what do we do
about that? And you know, and generally what happens in the world as as more of us get closer to the edge, we suddenly decide that safety nets are a great thing. So all the people that winged about the dull blood is COVID comes along and it's like we get research and payments where there's big safety in that, and everyone's going, oh, this is the most great And then once we get more comfortable again, we forget that learning and some people kind of move on.
I've got a real visual too of that. How you said, parenting is a lifelong conversation, and you just see it from you know, when you're your child is young and you might be teaching them delayed gratification through the Marshal arw test or chocolates to.
You know, my oldest is now working and is doing Key we Saver, and so we're now having conversations about which Key we Save a scheme he is in and what he thinks about that stuff. And it's so yeah, it's like that stuff. It just it doesn't kind of end it is. It is a long conversation, and it's just like anything. It's not a separate conversation. And it's not like one single thing is the be all around all or anything. It's like they're all part of the same sort of long thing.
I would love to see more people in the world and in particular like feel more that their money is we for them.
There are some things that we can all do to kind of make better decisions and end up in a better place. Like if I if.
I knew.
When I was like starting off what I know now, I would be ending my life in a way different financial position, like just way different. I would have made some really different decisions. And so particularly in the world where traditional idea has been that you know, I'll buy a home and that'll be my biggest assort. Well, for more and more and more people, that's just never going
to happen. So then what do you do with your money and you have to have ways to understand that basic concept of like making your money work for you, like that passive income stuff like you just put in a thing and then it does stuff. That's a really that's a really important idea, and increasingly we're going to have to, you know, those traditional routes of building some sort of legacy, which is the house that it's just not going to be for most people.
Thanks so much for your insights around money, and I think it is really just important kind of to know that there isn't a wrong way. It's just about sharing the values and having those open communications and keeping their dialogue and just watching it grow and evolve from that nice The long conversation, The long conversation,