How do you revitalize New Zealand capital markets? And you go through some of the investment houses and they've been putting out articles one way or another, sometimes disguise, but asking those re same questions, how does New Zealand capital markets actually get a shot.
In the arm given that you know, there's a fair amount of New Zealand beef that goes into the US, and I'm pretty sure a fair amount of that probably goes onto McDonald's Burger's. Given Trump's interest in the Golden Archers, maybe there's a trade opportunity for us.
The cryptocurrencies now have an investment legitimacy which will not be broken notwithstanding what happens, and it will speed up moves by central banks and other mainstream financial service providers to get into the space somehow.
Cura and welcome to Shed Lunch, brought to you by Cheesy's. My name is Helen Madison, and today on the program we'll be looking back at twenty twenty five, the good, the bad and the ugly, but we'll also be looking towards twenty twenty five and Watson's Store. I'll be joined by Giles Beckford, the business editor at R and Z and Informetrics chief economist Brad Olsen. But before we get started, he's some important information.
Investing involves the risk you might lose the money you start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor. We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest. Everything you're about to see and here is current at the time of recording.
Thanks for coming in, Giles and Brad, Welcome to the studio and our last episode of shed launch for twenty twenty four. Let's start with January this year when the Security and Exchange Commission that's the US regulator, actually approved bitcoin exchange traded funds. That's a real difference for crypto and probably legitimizes the fact that it could be an asset class. Giles, how do you think the feed since then?
Well, that was the good housekeeping seal of approval, wasn't it. When the SEC comes out and says, yeah, you know it's going future, and everybody figured, let's not play around with actually getting into the crypto. Let's get into the crypto operators. Hence the ETFs that got set up and bang, that was just the touching the blue paper and away it went, and all we've seen since then is just
a complete appreciation. Right, it's dominated by bitcoin. You have to say that there's much about the crypto scene which is still dodgy. It is questionable. You just know that there's so much dark stuff happening under the surface, and the amount of crypto that's been stolen so much for it being necessarily secure investment. But all that aside. Once the bandwagon gets rolling, everybody keeps chasing the train, and
that's what's happening. And with the prospect now with the new Trump administration saying you know, we're going to make it easier, when you've got the likes of Musk being able to hype it up in particular doge, how coincidental is it that the new department he's going to run to take out the red tape and make government more efficient and cheaper and easier as the acronym doge as well. I mean, oh, it's a complete meme, right, I mean, and they're not going to have the US government sealed there.
What they're going to have, in fact, is probably the portrait of being on Musk right behind every employee there. But you have to say that cryptocurrencies now have an investment legitimacy, which will not be broken notwithstanding what happens, and it will speed up moves by central banks and other mainstream financial service providers to get into the space.
Somehow, I think it's well though. I mean, yes, it legitimized it a touch, but I think it also gave it a crypto more generally, a bit of an easier entry method, and rather than people having to figure out how their own wallets and everything else worked, you know, you didn't have to go through all the hoopla that was sometimes either a bit dangerous, dodgy or otherwise, and it actually just made it a little bit more convenient through those ETFs and similar I mean, there's still, I think,
like you say, a lot of caution, a lot of worry in some areas about it, and people are still dropping new coins all the time. And there was another popular one the other day, the hop tour Girl released a coin that you know, shot up in price and then immediately crashed ninety percent. So again, some people are still putting some pretty serious money into things that they're not fully or aren't fully regulated. But now there's a little bit more of I guess some guardrails around it.
That provides a little bit more legitimate to So you're right.
It would be interesting to see actually how firm those guardrails are because the US will set the standard for regulation and everyone else is going to take it around the world. Like about one of the bigger operators here in New Zealand, and we've spoken to them a few times recently. They I think are probably being extremely responsible by saying, look, do your due diligence, right, but don't take this as being the be all and end all of your investment future.
This firm whom I won't name, but they're saying, look, regard crypto as say a five percent part of a diversified portfolio, right, just be sensible. And I'm thinking these are people who are actually going to earn money out of it, but they're taking a really responsible view, trying to advise people and keep the custom.
Well that that's with everything though, right, I mean, the risk conversation is always the biggest one. I still all the time, all through this year, all through the last couple have people coming up and there generally three questions that people on the street want to know. You know, what's the housing market going to do, What's my personal interest rate that I should fix on for and what's my investment strategy? And I always go back, well, what's
your tolerance? You know, if you're real happy to sort of maybe put it all on on one thing and it'll either blow up or blow down, as the case might be, then then that's cool for you, if you're willing to lose it all or gain it all. But for a lot of other people who aren't, it's then going, well, how do I sort of match things through? So you're totally right, that's a much more appropriate response and sort of plow it all in on the one option and sort of hope that hope, like heck it works.
Sticking with the US, guys, I'm just thinking Donald Trump, president elect. Tariffs has been a big topic, and what will happen to New Zealand In other countries, uncertainty seems to be what we're going for in twenty twenty five, Brad, What are you thinking given the US is our second largest trading partner.
Yeah, well, and that's only happened this year, right, the Chinese economy hasn't been going as well. We've now been doing more with the US because their economy has been a lot stronger. That's great, But equally you're right that we're seeing more uncertain times, but perhaps we're seeing more certain uncertainty. You know, it's going to be maybe not as volatile, but there's just so many moving parts that
are sort of heading forward. So I think increasingly when we're looking at the US markets and more generally the US economy, I think we know that we're in for quite a lot. You saw some of those early talks this year by Trump saying, look, I might levy tariff's on Mexico, Canada, and China. Now knew about China, we didn't necessarily know who was going to be first off the ranks for the other ones. But again, the reaction that had one changed the currency around quite a bit
for New Zealand. But also some of our providers like so Officier and Piker Will they've got manufacturing sites in Mexico that supply North America. So I think it also highlighted to us again sort of the importance in the
financial system that the US occupies. We've known that for a long time, but it's been a bit more latent or background, and now all of a sudden it's back to the forefront, because whatever happens there will have sort of ripple effects and maybe bigger ripples than before through to the rest of US.
I think Trump's last administration it's slightly indicative of how we might feel the whole thing about tariffs and the like. You know, the one thing that sort of directly affected us, and it was only small fry, was aluminium steel, which the tariffs cost us in the region of say six million bucks I think over that period. But the bigger impact, in fact was the paralysis that attached and Trump brought
to the World Trade Organization. Now we believe in the World Trade Organization because it's the referee of the world trading system. It's rules based, and little people like this, when you haven't got financial clout right, you've got to rely on the rules to help you. And the Trump administration last time round, they basically froze the WTO into inactivity.
They made it impotent as a trade referee, very simply just because they refused to nominate people to be appellate judges to work out the disputes between people who trying
to work out. What's interesting for me is it sheds a bit of a light that there are a significant number of small New Zealand tech companies who have domiciled themselves essentially in the States, and that might be our little secret back door, right that we've got Kiwi firms doing business in the States who will actually be to some extent insulated. Right, they actually might get the advantage of these sorts of things. But we'll wait and see
on that one. Trump. Look, there's more bluff and bluster right than you would find Niagara Falls.
Well, you just don't know, and I think that's one of the big challenges for everyone, not only in New Zealand but around the world. You're just not sure what is ever going to necessarily come through. I mean, the wider tone I think from this is that trade is going to be more difficult, which is not great news for New Zealand. Equally, I've been quite impressed that this year, you know, we have had a greater focus on trade deals.
We've got with the UAE, We've got trade deals with the Golf Cooperation Council, we've got some with Costa ECRA in Switzerland recently. So is still a lot of good moves there. We've had in the last couple of years, both the EU and the UK Free Trade Agreement, So we've still got a lot of options out there, but
I think that trading environment is more difficult. The challenge, I think is that the US economy is still such a hefty part of the global market that you know, this year, for example, we saw that when our meat wasn't going as well into China, we could pivot that quite quickly a lot of it, not all of it, but a lot of it into the US because they've got the lowest beef stocks and I think seventy years, so you know, that's where we can send our meat. Now,
it does always come through. And you know, we've talked about not only the tariffs but the possible exemptions that maybe we need to try and focus on because Trump won't be looking to target New Zealand, it'll just be probably across the board thing. But given that, you know, there's a fair amount of New Zealand beef that goes into the US, and I'm pretty sure a fair amount
of that probably goes into McDonald's burgers. Given Trump's interest in the Golden Archers, maybe maybe there's a trade opportunity for US there, or you know, some sort of exemption. But I mean just the consumption numbers that you're seeing in the US. They are spending like no tomorrow. And I must say, looking at the markets as well, there's part of me that goes, we're too next. I mean that just what's going on there.
I'm keen to see what you think of that, Giles too, because the tech stocks and video and the like, it's been insane, but there seems to be no bottom.
Well, I don't know, let's be honest. You know, things can run their course. We've been through these sorts of cycles in the pastime thinking that I've been around so long, Right, the Internet wasn't invented when they started journalism. Microsoft was just a twinkle in Bill Gates's eye. But what then turned out was that we are we very quickly had the dot com bubble bang right just on the turn near the late nineties, right, we had the e commerce
like that. You know, everybody built so much promise into it, right bang it fell away. But I think, you know, we've got to say that the tech stocks now they have such clouts. You know, when the likes of Nnvidia is what one hundred times bigger than the New Zealand economy, I think there's evaluation of it, so like that, you go, yeah,
they're probably here to stay. It's the games that the investment funds want to play, I think, and where the technology will take us where we see that you know, artificial intelligence will be the driver for two, three, four, five years, right, the invidios of this world and all the other chip makers and the associated tech companies must continue to thrive. The Magnificent seven. Who knows if there'll actually be seven or seventeen or three allies all the
same companies and who will own them. I mean politics comes in to play because there's a lot of Chinese influence in that tech sector, like it or not, and do the politics of a Trump administration wants to punish the Chinese, as we've just actually seen in the past few days where there's a district court judgment in the States right that TikTok's got TikTok's got to be divested. And so from that point of view, you know, technologies here of the state, there will all be companies and
money that drive that. We're going to see more boom, I think. But I think we're just going to say there will be busts somewhere as well.
Well. It has been interesting. I saw a chart the other day that because let's be clear, this is mostly about the US markets. It's not that generally you know, stocks and equities and that are just on a rocket ship to the moon. It's the US. And I saw something the other day I think that said that, you know, the US markets are you know, now so far away relative to Europe. It's like the biggest the GAP's ever been in terms of sort of you know, the positioning
on the US compared to Europe. And I mean that does highlight that again, there's a lot of growth and fundamentals, there's a lot of money going in there, there's a lot of consumer spending. But I go, the markets are high when interest rates have been high. If interest rates then come down normally that would stimulate a greater level of investment in spending, which would then put the markets higher.
So if the markets are high when interest rates are high, and when they're low, then, like you say, I mean, my question is when does it turn around? But I mean the reality is you look at the sorts of numbers that New Zealanders invest, we do put it into the US as well. We're not alone in that fact. So there seems to be correct me up from Wronghound, but there seems to be sort of quite a focus there on people wanting to look at it well.
I find interesting though, is that you talk about how the US is just well ahead of the rest of the world. Is that also introduces distortion into capital allocation around the world, And you've got to say, well, if the US is sucking it all up or is putting most of its own resources into the sector, right, how's the rest.
Of the world going with the rest of it?
That's right? Where's ourbit right?
Well, that leads me to the fact that here in New Zealand we've had our highest trading days ever at Cheersey's a lot of that is US fueled because everybody sees great returns, prospects, etc. They're not seeing the same with our own market. Then dead X and Giles. You know, there's been a few shockers and terms of earnings, there's many companies I could talk about, Spark in New Zealand, the Warehouse, the list goes on.
Yeah, it's the incredible shrinking inz X, isn't it. You contrast it with thirty forty years ago where it was well driven, well supported. But the in X, you have to say, has just not being able to make any headway in persuading local companies that the exchange is the place for them. What is the ENDINEX for? Essentially, it's a way of raising money. Why do you invest in it? Well, because you, as an investor have confidence in the way
companies are run. You would have to save that over the past two to three years in particular, and the case for some companies for the past decade, they've been less than competently run. Right, And I was channeling up the number of companies in this country that have not
been paying dividends for the past couple of years. There's some really big ones, right, Sky City, Fletcher Building in New Zealand, some of the retail stocks, right, But they're all saying we're saving our cash, well, saving the cash, well, saving the cash actually to cover some rather big holes in their balance sheets because they made really bad decisions.
And I think that's one of the features is that the level of corporate governance and commercial nous that's been applied by some of our publicly listed companies has been shown to be woefully inadequate. Leave aside the one off effects of the pandemic because everybody got a kick in the backside and a kick in the balance sheet for that. Well and good, but you have to say that, you know, the level of shareholder return and the New Zealand market
is essentially supported by investors who want dividends. That's what it's all about. It tells you everything that the NSINEX fifty, the benchmark index, includes dividends, right, a lot of other places around the world it doesn't. And I think that a lot of people will have been woefully disappointed. And you can see why people don't have much enthusiasm for actually getting in there. If there's going to be a big IPO. Say, you know, let's just pretend bank k gosh,
aren't they just the spectral vision on the horizon? Now that's going to save us? Or Kiwi Bank?
Are they?
But the point being is that say Kibibank were to list, everybody would be in like the way that people were in for the gent tailors, right, Meridian, Mighty River Power.
We're talking twenty eight, aren't we, now, Child, Well, if it happens.
At all, it may not happen in any of our investing lifetimes.
I've got a lot of time.
I think, but I mean I think, you know, serious questions come down to how do you revitalize New Zealand capital markets? And you go through some of the investment houses and they've been putting out articles one way or another, sometimes disguise, been asking those very same questions, how does New Zealand capital markets actually get a shot on the arm, And I'm not sure that anybody's actually got a reasonable answer about that.
Well, the question I start to ask is, you know, when does this come to a head, Because you've got those the issues with just canvas, the fact that increasingly seems to be a trend of businesses that are either looking to only list on the Australian markets in Australian Exchange, or they're actually going unlisted here in New Zealand because they don't want all the big obligations and the costs. And so I think one of the reasons that you're
not seeing, for example, there as many young people. I know that there's an easy way to vote now and I've done that myself with Macheesy's app, But I look at that and I do find that a lot of times people go, well, I've continued to get the same results, and I feel like, you know, it's not like I can put up a director or eything else. You know, I've sort of got to vote on the pictures that are made by those that sort of seem to have more of the power. What's the point. I'm sort of
just voting for the same old, same old. So I think there is a real lack of engagement and a real level of disappointment amongst investors, but who are voting with their wallets and going, well, stuff it, I'll find something better, and they are.
Yeah. The one little candle of confidence, if I can call it that, is that I like the more assertive and prominent attitude that the Shareholders Association has taken in the past few years, where they've been willing to stand up whether it's big company or small company and saying
what you're proposing isn't good. It works against the interests of small shareholders and us be honest, you know, the Shareholders Association looks after little folks, little folk like me who've got their three hundred shares and you know ABC dot Com, and we we feel the person who's got ten million shares right, well, we've done so why bothered?
But you know, we've got some sort of return. But the Sharehold Association says no, you know, big company or small companies say you've got a standard of care and the standard of duty and a fiscal, a fiduciary and legal obligation to look after all shareholders, big or small. Right,
So I applaud the Shareholder Association. I actually I think that if there was an organization to belong to as an investor, that would be one that you would look at and say it's worth giving our support, because if somebody's going to be a voice against some of the bigger powers, it'll be then.
There's been a bit more sort of talk as well, I feel this year and last as well about sort of putting your money where your mouth is, you know, making sure that for some of those people who are on boards and even a management you know that they need to have some skin in the game to recognize why this loss of value and the lack of outcome is actually important. And I mean you brought up keep Bank, and I sort of feel like that's sort of similar there.
I find it pretty difficult to stomach the idea that the government thinks that having a bank is so good, but it's not good enough for them to bank with. Why on earth does a bank? Does a government own a bank that they're not willing to do work with?
Speaking of banks, and one of the things that did happen in twenty twenty four is interest rates, which obviously banks have a big part in play, thinking, Brad, we're on the downward cycle, but it doesn't feel like it's champagne time. It's caution still. What's your view on where we're going to get to in twenty twenty five.
I think the big thing with interest rates at the moment is we're looking for where the new goldilocks owners, where is the new normal, because it might not be exactly where it was pre pandemic in twenty nineteen. And I think the difference as well this time is we're not trying to stimulate the economy. We're trying to take
our foot off the break and stop restraining it. If you look at where the official cash rade is expected to end out around that sort of three ish percent, maybe three and a half percent, that's still quite a bit above where it was in twenty nineteen. So I think that that's the sort of the different tone it's we're trying to unlock the economy, but we're not trying to put any sort of boost or noss behind it. We're just trying to get it back to a normal,
solid level of operation. So that will be different. I think when we're looking at sort of the next year, there's been a lot more front loading of those intrast rate cuts by the Reserve Bank, and there seems to be a bit more front loading that the retail banks have done as well on mortgage rates and the likes of savings rates and similar as well. So I do
wonder there will be further next year. There will be more to come, but I think that we're possibly closer to the bottom of interest rates than we might think. It's just that it will take a while, I think, for households to refix. So there's probably another six months of quite challenging conditions until midyear when a lot more people every fix that all of a sudden got a bit more money that they're not spending on the mortgage, they can spend that on other things. Business sales start
to perk up a bit. Businesses then need a bit more resource, start to hire a bit more, and you start to get again that more I guess it is solid level of economic activity. It's it's not economic goal drums, but it's not the rocket ship to the moon stuff either.
Interestingly, just before I came here this morning, one of our leading clothing retailers just reported to the internet saying, our sales are up ten percent for the first eighteen weeks of our trading year, and go ten percent. That's great, And I said, but you should have seen what they were like last year, so a ten percent rise isn't
that great. But they made the comment that they found their margins were actually stable in an environment where everybody else would be doing deep discounting just to get goods out the door, right, and to get cash into the tools, that whole turnover piece, right, just running fast to stay still. And from that point of view, you know, there's been a real pressure on margins. In the end, I think a lot of firms were hanging on by their fingertips
through the pandemic. They were saved by wage subsidies and the other cheap finance schemes that came through from the government. And now that that TAP's been largely turned off, right, and people like Treasury and the banks are saying, well, we lent you, you know, five hundred thousand dollars during the pandemic.
Excuse us, can we have some of it back? Right in an environment where they're still paying high money for their working cash when they're not making sales and wage bills are Actually we should note there that their wage costs have gone up quite considerably as well. So looking at that throw it all together, Yeah, you can see why more businesses are failing, and we.
Probably will have some more failures, you think, o.
Bounty, I mean, you've got well, four hundred and thirty six thousand people. I think by the last Centric report, we're in their debt areas, right, four hundred and thirty six Now you say, you know, that's enormous. The number of liquidations of companies is double in the past year or so, in particular construction, retails, a hospital.
It is interesting, though, because I feel like we're sort of back into a almost an economic purgatory position where you've got those business closures coming through. You've still got some pretty tough operating conditions through in the economy. But at the same time you are looking at the likes of electronic card data are starting to pick up ever
so slightly. It's still down on a year ago, but it's picking up slightly, and I think it highlights that there's still that level of cause amongst consumers that when we've looked at that, how that spending has sort of changed consumable so you know, your supermarket spend your essentials is pretty stable and solid. Your durables, your big items, your electronics and couches, and that's still pretty lackluster.
One of the other features of twenty twenty four was we had the introduction of climate reporting and that's four entities I think that have got one billion in assets. It feels quite mixed reaction. We've had what would you say, Giles.
Well, we had two big reports out in the past couple of weeks. One was from the Financial Markets Authority, who have got the oversight for the climate reporting entities.
Those big firms that you were talking about. They said, well, you know, I'm generally speaking, people have sular got to grips were that, but there areas of need for improvement and we've got the view that some firms actually probably still haven't quite got the grips of what they're supposed to say and what they're supposed to measure and how they're supposed to present the information. Some of them were accentuating the positive, right and should we say, well the
dirty word, but exactly they were green washing. And then there was a report by Forsyth Bar who looked at those companies on the nz X who were putting out the ESG reporting and they do a carbon component as well, and they said the ones who have got to grips with that are the gent tailors. And the reason why, of course, is because they've got some of the biggest carbon emissions, so they actually they measure, they know the cost, they're moving to mitigate racings. They've got the whole renewable
energy side to their business as well. They're fine. Other companies are trailing quite a way back. Everybody's making an effort. I thought the interesting comment that came out of the FMA report was that cost of compliance, even for a small firm, a smallish firm, you can be spending a million dollars or more to actually do this report or to do these reports. It's required by law for those entities of being who meet that criteria, but you know, and it's taking up a lot of time, there's a
whole industry now in ESG reporting. So all those firms that we're doing consultancy on smart tax avoidance sorry, tax minimization schemes right are now doing reports on how to do your ESG reporting. That's a new side of their business.
See. That's my worry as well, though, is that we're
effectively creating a whole another cottage industry. And in fact, you get some of the businesses who, you know, I don't know if it's been public or reporter, but a few every now and then seem to suggest that actually, thus spending more on compliance, that they've actually had to strip out some of their budget for doing stuff on the climate, for supporting you know, the adaptation and mitigation to just fill out the forms and do some of that reporting, and that seems a little bit over the top.
There has been I think some common sense changes that have come through from the External Reporting Board and that that have sort of pushed out the expectations of how quickly a whole lot of the additional reporting has to come through. And that's important, And my sort of worry is, like I totally think we need to do this quite clearly.
It's important more importantly from a business point of view, you're seeing a lot of our overseas operators, those who are buying from New Zealand businesses saying I need you to do this, otherwise I won't buy from you. So like there's a business imperative there for it, but I feel like there's got to be a slightly smart way of going about it. Then making everyone do all of this paperwork that might have some value but maybe isn't all going as easily to plan, isn't quite as cheap
to produce, and more importantly diverts resources away. That there's got to be a better middle ground there. It was encouraging though at least what my sort of one positive on that broader climate landscape was at least the emission's trading scheme got a few credits sold this year because market I mean, there was nothing before and it's i mean again still not working like it should be, but the fact that there was actually a few bit of a look up.
You wouldn't, like buy some cute carbon credits. I've just got a few times.
If I could buy some, I probably would. I mean, one of the disappointing things this year as as an economist, you know, we're always looking at numbers. Was that actually some of the transparency on the carbon markets was taken away when Jarden's closed, the sort of public fronting on carbon and price supporting. So, I mean, it's one of
those things. I feel like the government still got a lot of work to do there to make everyone actually realize that you do need to do this stuff, rather than at the moment it still seems like everyone's like, yeah, okay, we get it, but you don't seem committed. So I don't know if I need to be committed well, which is a bad place.
Interestingly, of course, the government before it came into power was counting on a rather robust ets to be able to furnish some money for them, which actually hasn't emerged.
There's no money in the kiddy for that.
Right, You hat another pressure on the scores.
Now, guys, we've talked about a lot of things, and a lot of them are a little bit depressing. We need to lift the tempos somewhat. What are you thinking in twenty twenty five, I'll start with you, Giles, is going to be a positive for New Zealand.
I think we're just actually going to be more cheerful. I mean, we're no now, I mean, and that's.
That's where it starts. It's that positivity there.
Right, a sunny disposition of disposition even if the weather doesn't play ball. But I think people you're feeling it already, right, People talk positive, right. I mean the number of people I talk to now are actually saying it won't be thrive, right, but we've survived right well and good you're right.
Next year I think will be better quite simply because people's mortgages are coming down like that. We've seen that effect. Monetary policy did very well to curb economic activity when they were high. Now they're coming down. It will give people a bit more money. So I think as we go through next year it won't hit the first of January. Everything is all that quickly better. But that sort of talk around you know, green shirts, and I've been talking
about it quite a lot. I feel like the sunflower comes out a bit more around midyear, if you will, because that's when the spending will come through. And again, I mean, you can't break the economy down this simply, but sometimes you have to try. Once households are spending a bit more, they will go and put that into out into businesses, and similar to those businesses, once they have a bit more activity, they've got some runs on the board, they need a few more people to work
through that. That then stimulates a bit more employment. The unemployment rate drops a bit, more spending happen. So again I think you're right, We're just onto a more solid footing next year.
Speaking of spending, then, Brad, what are you thinking for spending for Christmas? What about gifting? How do you feel about that?
Personally? I really struggle with present shopping one. It's just the crowd sort of you know. I struggle with those enough. But as a good economist, the sort of lowest transaction value is to give people cash. In fact, a bank transfer would be better. Now some people say it's very unsentimental, Charles, I don't know if you've got a view on how you gift, but I'm a big fan of cash and money.
That's a much better option for me, very easy. Whoever I'm gifting it to, they can choose whatever they want.
The best gift I think I can give actually is my time. Right is to be actually with You can't put a price on it other than to say right when I have a family gathering, I come away uplifted, right, and I hope that you know, they gain a little something from me. And so time is the most important thing. And I don't think Look, we speak about peace on earth, good world war people right for Christmas, why don't we do it for three hundred and sixty five days of
the year. Actually, that's the key issue. I know it doesn't generate a lot of money. I know Brad's economic philip won't you know, necessarily get that boost, But so be it right, if we're actually better mentally within our own family structures, that actually, to me is the foundation of a good economy.
Well, that's with many more things we could talk about. Guys, thank you so much for coming in today and being with us for our last episode of the year, and thanks listeners for joining us. You can watch Shared Lunch on YouTube, or you can follow us on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a rating and tell us what you'd like to hear next. Merry Christmas and Martewar