I think that like working in restaurants, especially. I was serving in front of house for a while. You have to introduce yourself to new people every 20 minutes.
as a server or even like a host or something. It's a lot of like, hi, I have to put my entire personality on hold for the rest of this exchange and pretend I'm basically an iPhone app for you. I mean, we've all gone through like... breakups and you know i've had like family issues and stuff and then you got to put on a name tag and go to work and it's it's really brutal and i mean if i feel i feel like if i've learned anything from those jobs it's that
um you know like it's a it's a sort of like this too shall pass kind of thing um and sometimes you're not in the mood to work and i feel like How do I put this? I have tried- I achieved my dream of never having to go back into one of these places. and i was like huzzah now i can sit down and write i will be a writer and i
For the first few months after I was full-time, I was like, I'm going to play video games and eat pizza every single day. This is like, I don't have any chaperone. There's no adult in this room with me. And I think that it's so ironic. Cause like I was running away from that, that for so long. And that was like the thing I hated so much about those jobs. It's like, they got to be here at this time and you can't leave until this time. And it's so funny to me. It's so cosmically fun.
that the way that I'm able to get these books finished on deadline now is by acting exactly like that with my dream job. It's like you really do have to do it when you don't feel like it sometimes. What is up, everybody? You're listening to episode 155 of SFF Addicts. I'm your host, Adrian M. Gibson, and welcome to your weekly dive into the world of science fiction, fantasy, and writing craft. Joining me this week is my co-host, the truth.
my Commander Shepard. I'm Jake Kuhn. How you doing, girl? Hello. I am doing great. doing fantastic. We've had like a long off air chat with our guests. Right, I know. We've been chitter-chattering. We've been chitter-chattering like little birdies. And if you want to chitter-chatter your ass on over to whatever bookstore or bookseller and get MJ's debut novel, Among Thieves, and the sequel.
Thick-ass thieves to support this wonderful human being, everything she does. And, well, she's freelance now. But to get another day job that she controls herself. Slightly more. And if you'd like to support Adrian and the wonderful things that he does, check out Mushroom Blues. For some fungal body horror and police procedural shenanigans. Yeah. And SPFBO second place. Yeah. Oh, that's right. This will be the first episode that comes out after. No.
Yeah, yeah. The first one we're recording after. The first one we're recording. Can't be all runner up, baby. Yeah. And if you want to support Greta, our other co-host, you can go check out her book. She's got Frozen Crown, The Seventh Queen, and The Queen of Days. So go support my queen.
As well, a quick note for listeners, you can support SFF Addicts on Patreon for a ton of cool extras like bonus episodes, author readings, and more. So check the links in the description to help us do what we do here. Also, don't forget to rate and view the podcast on your favorite podcast app and subscribe. or this and every other episode.
also shout out to our newest patron on patreon april h we don't know your last name but we adore you and thank you for giving And now, welcoming back to SFF Addicts, our dear friend Evan Lycum, debut author of the newly released Angie Kills a King and the brilliant mind behind the book reviews Kill podcast and social media.
I'm great. Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure, man. Well, we gave a little rundown of your book and book reviews kill, but if you want to give people a little bit more of an in-depth... Hi, everybody. I'm Evan. I run the Book Reviews Kill Instagram and TikTok pages, and I also run the Book Reviews Kill podcast. puts out episodes sometimes.
He's not as rigid as us. We do still put episodes out. I'm the author of Angie Kills the King, which as of this recording today comes out in like four days. So I am keeping it together. The best that I can. It's been a long time. Yes. He's trembling. He's trembling. He's got it together so much. I'm trembling. We're so together. I'm very, very excited about it. It's been so amazing to see the encouragement and the support.
just the optimism from everybody. And it's just, man, it's a huge dream come true. And it's still just as surreal today, right before release, as it was when I found out I was getting published and all the time between that two. So, yeah, I just feel really grateful and lucky and mushy about it. And I think I'm going to for the next few weeks. I just keep catching myself like, oh, this is so...
So stoked about it. We deserve it, man. As I was going to say, it's exciting and it's well-deserved. I'm very excited for the launch and to see how everything goes. And for listeners, wait, Adrienne, when does this episode air? Hey, people in the Michigan area, you need to come see both me and Evan. at Sidetrack Bookshop!
I think in the 22nd. And Joe Abercrombie. 22nd. And Joe Abercrombie, yeah. And a little author you might have heard of. Joe Abercrombie. MJ Evan and that other dude. That British guy. Yeah. That dude we just had on the podcast who leans too much. He was leaning up a storm. Man, he's so calm, cool, collected, and composed. You'll get there. Eventually.
I love it. After this release. I'll relax. That's right. I'll bring him again. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Before we dig deeper into the episode, a quick word from our sponsor. Welcome to Transference, where death and sickness are but a distant memory. Nicholas Five Burroughs is a sicko, someone that takes on others' illnesses. In a city where diseases can be transferred, the rich buy longer lives without pain, and the poor get a short life of constant sickness. Brought back from the brink of death.
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Transference by Ian Patterson is available now in paperback and ebook. Get your copy today. And now, enjoy the rest of this episode of SFF Addicts. Well let's, we've been thinking forward to the release, let's think backward, and let's go to... Because, like us, you're a big old nerd. I mean that with love. What books, shows, movies, games from your childhood got you hooked?
I think with a lot of people of my generation, I'm 34, so I was a 90s kid, and so Harry Potter, for sure, that was the first thing where I was like, oh. I don't just like doing this now and then. I love reading. Like, this is great. And then, you know, like The Hobbit, obviously, like my mom bought it for me.
I don't know if I, like, super got everything in it, because I was, like, 9 or 10, but I definitely got enough of it. And then, like, T.A. Barron's Lost Years of Merlin, I think, was, like, a really big influence. on like secondary world type stuff where it's like wow we really can just go to like a complete
I was huge. And then, you know, I kept reading some stuff, but then when I was in high school, I kind of stopped reading. I was mostly like playing video games and playing music and stuff. But then my old podcast co-host, Chad, let me... his copy of The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, and that kind of kicked me off again. And just, I was like, oh my God, I forgot. I totally love doing this so much. And then it was just completely down. J.R. Martin, Robin Hobbs, J.R. Martin, Robin Hobbs,
I feel like downhill is a good one because it's like, I kind of coasted into it. It was just so easy. Not falling down a hill. Not like tripping and stumbling. Yeah, I feel like uphill would have been a struggle. Yeah, that's fair. I'm very grateful for those kinds of like more formative years reading when I was a kid because my parents were like, they really encouraged it.
They were really happy to see me reading so much. And, you know, obviously I didn't have a job. I couldn't buy my own books, but they were very cool about, you know, if I wanted a book, they would typically grab it for me or just like ensure that I had enough to read. So I'm really grateful for that. And then also just as grateful for Chad for giving me that copy of Name of the Wind. And I think I probably would have found it eventually.
The reading never really stopped from there. It waxed and waned, for sure. I was playing in my band and trying to get that off the ground. It was a little distracting sometimes. And then with video games too, I've been playing video games since... with Super Nintendo when I was five or six years old and haven't stopped. So... I mean, obviously, I played... Ocarina of Time, when I was seven or eight, I feel like that was pretty instrumental.
And like the big sweeping adventure progression, you know, with still like a really solid story. All the fantasy elements feel like right now they feel so classic. and almost like done to death but i feel like in the late 90s in that visual medium like it just hadn't really been done like that before So that was huge. lately, like recently, I think that the Dark Souls games, like all the FromSoft games,
in a weird way, I think have helped me along in this process. Not because of the story, because like the stories are like very vague and you really got to dig. But the way that you don't really know what's going to happen in those games, and you don't really know what to expect, and nothing's off the table with those games. And I think it's a very inspiring thing to know that you can go into something.
you know like when they're creating those games i'm sure there's no like oh we can't put that kind of monster in here no way Um, so that those were, those were pretty big. And then like, I mean, like, uh, The Bioshock games, I really love those. Those were pretty big for me. I'm a really big Halo fan, so playing... Halo when I was like 12 or 13 and like being able to like get excited for those installments And I was like, Halo 2 is coming out.
what's going to happen next in the story. Or playing co-op with your friends or having LAN parties and shit. Oh, I used to do that. I totally used to do that. We'd get all our... CRT TVs. Yeah, I do that. I'm going to take my 40-pound TV in the car. Yeah, I totally did that. It was so much fun, but yeah, like waiting. I mean, I still remember like the wait for Halo 3. As a video game, I feel like Halo specifically...
I was excited. I was like, we're finishing the fight. I remember the cliffhanger for Halo 2. I'm so invested in this story. And then I started reading some of the books and it was like... It was such a big deal for me as far as like digging into the lore of something. I hadn't really done that before to that degree with like where I was like kind of marrying like books and video games. a side note too for anybody listening who works for one of these publishers that put out video game books
I'm super down. I would love to write, like, a Borderlands book or, like, a Mass Effect book. Oh, my God. Mass Effect was the one for you. Mass Effect book is on my list. high for like i'd rather do borderlands because i could be wacky yeah yeah yeah you could do whatever but like your experience your experience with halo is exactly what happened with me and mass The lead writer on the Mass Effect games also wrote the sad content.
Patrick Batallon novels. Drew Carpersen. Oh, yeah, he's done some Star Wars stuff. Yeah, exactly. Like, Darth Bane and all this stuff. So I was like, man, I am all in on this. And it was just like... you know like let me like learn more about sarin and all this stuff you know it's good when you're seeking out yes yeah right exactly yeah exactly yeah so yeah i mean i think there's so much that went into it um i think
Constantly being willing to try new things, try new games, try new movies, new shows, new books. I mean, I've got my comfort stuff that I keep coming back to. But then it's like, okay, well, I've heard this is really cool. Let's get into this. So yes, at this point, especially after starting the TikTok and Instagram stuff, it's like with books specifically.
I mean, I'm seeing so many books just one after the other. I can't keep up. And everybody listening, and you guys know too, it's impossible to keep up with all the amazing work that's being put. And it's just, I think it's really awesome. I wouldn't, I'd rather, I wouldn't rather have it any other way, but at the same time, I'm like, okay, well. I guess I'll just keep buying them. I'll get some kind of dopamine out of this. Someday I'll get to them, yeah. Someday, someday we'll make it happen.
Dude, I want to dig into video games a little bit more. Sure. On the content creation side, if anyone wants to check out episode 119, we did a panel with Evan, Mike's Book Reviews, and Kay's Hidden. content creation um but like let's stick into video games a little bit more because this is like a shared love between all three of us of course and i want to know like what what what appeals to you about the video game medium and like how has that kind of influenced your understanding.
I'm gonna try to say this in a way that doesn't make me sound controlling person.
but it's the control aspect of it. So, like, let me just dig in that a little more. Why didn't you go into self-publishing? But, I mean, I think for me with video games, it's, like, the really cool thing about it, and one of the reasons I love the FromSoft games so much is because you can always get back... like if there's a problem you can fix it and you're in like this contained world where yes you're not doing a very good job at this but if you keep at it
You'll keep doing better. And I feel like that applies to making art, too. It applies to making music. I mean, Adrian, you're a visual artist. You know exactly that kind of discomfort that you can feel sometimes where you're like, I'm just not getting this. It's not what I want it to be.
This is a problem. I don't know how to fix it. And with video games, it's kind of like that in miniature and much more contained where it's like, okay, I'm just going to keep running up against this boss until I figure out what I'm doing wrong and what to do right. Maybe I'm just addicted to that feeling because when you do it, it feels amazing. When you actually do figure it out, it's great.
there's a certain perseverance, not just with FromSoft games, but with most video games, where the whole point of the game is that you're discovering the correct way. in a lot of cases. You know, you're playing Zelda.
solve one of the puzzles and it's like okay i feel like i've looked everywhere did you look up you know oh you gotta look up you know like so that kind of feeling i feel like translates pretty well to making art and you know when i'm when i'm writing it's like i feel like i've run into a wall and it's like well okay but did you though
Like, did you really? Like, are you done? You're just going to put it down forever? You know, like, no. I've done that with some games. But to be totally clear, like, yeah, I mean, I don't like 100% everything. But, you know, like I run into some kind of wall with writing where I can feel that discomfort start to creep in and I can feel that kind of like.
man, I just don't know if I've got the chops for this. And it's like, no, of course you do. Of course you do. You just got to keep doing it. Keep doing it. Figure out what it is that's bugging you. Figure out what it is that's not working. And instead of running from it, sit. sit with that discomfort and work through it. And that's really what, to me at least, that's what video games are all about. It's kind of like this... enjoyable form of ma-
It's safe for everybody. Everybody's on the same page. It's mutual. I think it's also kind of like an inspiring thing where it's like perseverance. that you know matters because you know the puzzle can be solved. which sometimes in real life, it doesn't feel that way. So yeah, I love that. And I love the connection of that to persevering when you're creating art and music and writing and things like that, because, you know.
You can solve it. The solution is there. You just have to kind of maybe beat your head against the wall a little bit to get there. Or you need to, you know, with video games, sometimes I need to put the controller down and go take a walk. And that kind of helps when I'm writing too. It's like, okay, let's just, okay, we're just, we're too deep into this.
You think it's not going to work, just put it down for a second. And, you know, I don't know if this happens to you all when you're playing video games, but sometimes when I'm having a really rough... time with a certain part of a game if i go to sleep i'll like beat it when i wake up which is so interesting honestly it's the same with like any creative endeavor it's like your mind is just so immersed in this and you're just like Almost to the point where you're like... drowning in your own...
desire to do it now, now, now. Yeah. I mean, even day job stuff. Like when I used to work in an office back before in the pre-COVID days, my coworkers and I would joke that post-lunch Mallory was a lot smarter than pre-lunch Mallory. for like half the morning. And then I would go for a walk on my lunch break, come back and, you know, a little bit of code that I've been trying to write in five minutes, you know? Um,
Well, let's talk a little bit more because I think we talked a lot about perseverance with the video games. That's like a big piece of it and a big piece of any. piece of art um we talked a little offline before we started well we talked a lot offline before we started recording but we talked a little bit about um some of the jobs that that you've been in um before
kind of moving into your full-time content creation and now author life. Let's talk a little bit about some of those jobs. Correction MJ, shit jobs. You said it. I'm trying to call him that character. That's a lovely one, remember? Shit jobs build character. At least you didn't necessarily like them all that much and like what working in those taught you about persistence, perseverance.
Dreaming bigger, that whole vibe. Let's talk about your, your rexed riches, Evan. My rexed riches, I mean, I love it, dude. It kind of was, like, I really didn't have any money for, like, a long time. Um, I don't know. Like, I mean, I think that like working in restaurants, especially. I was serving in front of house for a while. You have to introduce yourself to new people every 20 minutes. as a server Or even like a host or something.
It's a lot of like, hi, I have to put my entire personality on hold for the rest of this exchange and pretend I'm basically an iPhone app for you. And then repeat it again. Yeah, exactly. And I've had those days where... You know, I mean, we've all gone through like... breakups and you know i've had like family issues and stuff and then you got to put on a name tag and go to work and it's it's really brutal and i mean if i feel i feel like if i've learned anything from those jobs it's that
It's a sort of like this too shall pass kind of thing. And sometimes you're not in the mood to work. And I feel like... How do I put this? I have tried- I achieved my dream of never having to go back into one of these places again. And I was like, huzzah, now I can sit down and write. I will be a writer.
And for the first few months after I was full-time, I was like, I'm going to play video games and eat pizza every single day. It's like, I don't have any chaperone. There's no adult in this room with me. And I think that it's so ironic. Cause like I was running away from that, that for so long. And that was like the thing I hated so much about those jobs. It's like, they got to be here at this time and you can't leave until this time. And it's so funny to me. It's so cosmically fun.
that the way that I'm able to get these books finished on deadline now is by acting exactly... like that with the job that I, my dream job. It's like, you really do have to do it when you don't feel like it sometimes. And there's a little more wiggle room now because like, you know, I don't have like a, you know, a manager. breathing down my neck telling me that i gotta upsell like mozzarella sticks or something it's not the same it's not like that but it is like okay
It's fine if you wake up at 10 a.m., but you're not going to lay in bed on your phone for four hours. We're not doing that today. We can do it tomorrow, maybe. We can do it later this week. That time can happen, but... like this is um you know this is a huge opportunity and i think that
what i really the mindset i really had to get into when i've been working on these books it's like okay like set with this gratitude and sit with like this knowledge of like what kind of opportunity this is and don't fuck it up like don't
fuck it up by being like aha like i am emancipated from the workaday like you know like and it's like no you're not going to be the only the really cool thing about what's going on is that you are now having to put about the same amount of time and effort into something that you are much more... and when i made that kind of like when that kind of clicked i was able to get a lot more work done because
Yeah, some part of me was just like, ah, I did it. Now I can work for half an hour a day. And it's like, I mean, you could, but you're not going to get anything done and you really got to show up. And just like with those jobs that I wasn't as excited about, I did have to. and when I was there I didn't want to do a bad job.
You know, I wasn't like, rah, rah, let's make this company as much money as possible. Yeah, but the motivations are different. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But I mean, I really appreciate that I was in those jobs for a long time. I mean, you learn so much, especially working in restaurants. I'm not one of those people. It's a lot. It can be a lot, like working in restaurants, but it teaches you perseverance.
with when I was talking about video games. I mean, it teaches you to, you got to be able to like, let some stuff roll off your back and you know, you're not going to have a bunch of really great exchanges all the time. And you got to kind of, you're getting a lot of humanity. Like this, it's a ton. And so, yeah, I mean, like I, as much as I. I want to stay an author for the rest of my life. Very much so.
But it's so funny. Again, it's another really funny thing where I've considered getting a part-time job at a restaurant. uh even though i'm doing fine but it's like i wouldn't i do miss the the kind of like camaraderie of working in a place like that uh that is something that i i definitely do miss
You're kind of coming in, you're seeing your friends. And sometimes when you're working at a restaurant, it can be really fun, too. Like, it's a blast sometimes. And you really get to know the people you're working with. And one thing about this job now that I wouldn't say that I... or anything, but... for a while, like the last cycle. I don't know, this winter I was working just in my apartment.
All the day. I was just typing and sitting in here and I live in Portland and like in the wintertime it's just... Not great. It's, you know, you just pretty much don't go outside. Like, I mean, you can, it's fine, but it's raining. It's cold. MJ, you know what I mean? yeah i was gonna say there's a good portion of the year we just don't go outside either yeah i grew up in british columbia so it's pretty much okay you know exactly yeah yeah yeah so um
It's been really, really nice over the last few months. I started forcing myself to go to, there's a couple cafes that are within about a half. So I get a nice little walk and I go to this cafe and working in a coffee shop is way better for me than working alone at home. I still don't mind working alone at home, but I think that it does kind of, it's got that kind of like.
And again, I keep saying it's ironic, but it's like it's got that kind of like, all right, I'm getting up and taking a shower and putting clothes on and I'm going to work kind of thing. And once I get to the coffee shop too, I don't know if you guys work like this, but I love working in coffee shops because I have to work Because everybody else is working. And if I go there and I just scroll on Instagram, I'm going to look like an asshole.
You know, so, like, there's, like, a little bit of, like, I don't know. That's the thing. That's such a fun mental trick. I use it. That's why I go to a gym instead of working out in my apartment, even though I have a treadmill, right? Because even though I know. logically that nobody around me in this coffee shop nobody around me in this gym is actually paying attention and they don't really care what if they are well that's also like the the kind of like collected consciousness
um vibe of it where it's like okay it's it's like a nice like comforting thing to know everybody's working on stuff there's like a camaraderie there too so i almost feel like i'm getting it's not quite the same but it's like there is some of that kind of camaraderie while when i go work
coffee shop too where it's like okay we're all here for the same reason we're all getting work done um and then also when i'm at home alone it's kind of like what i was saying before about like not having an adult in the room so it's like yeah i'll write an hour but then like the oblivion remake just came out and i kind of want to like order some food and like oh yeah like maybe maybe i will go out with my friends at seven o'clock when i really should be at home
So at the end of the day, though, yeah, I am really grateful for those jobs. Yeah, man. And honestly, parenting forced me to kind of reconfigure things in a very... like i can't really just like go hang out at a coffee shop because my son will be like well i
I don't want to be here. I'm alive. I am too, and I am like... curious and my diaper's full of poo and like whatever other issues come up like that's a serious yeah we gotta figure that out serious problem no but like i i totally understand where it's like Yeah, you just kind of get into these modalities. Yeah, I should probably be a little bit more structured, like a little bit more conscious about this stuff. I said, I think I put it on threads or something.
the total like mind vomit thing where I was just like frustrated with myself. but I said I need to stop rewarding periodic bursts of structure with total chaos buffets because it's not the way any of this works like it's not like i i think that that's been like a huge learning process for me It's like, whatever it is you're doing... or at least I should say whatever I'm doing, like whatever I'm doing, routine and consistency.
As much as I feel like I don't want it, it's probably best. Like, that's probably the move, you know? And the really amazing thing about this job in particular is that it does work well for... for me um in in the sense that i can kind of like okay so today we're working from 11 a.m to 4 p.m and we're gonna just we're doing deep work for these
so no no fucking around like no you know and then it's cool because it's like all right i got that chunk of time done that's awesome and then i can go do whatever but if i feel like getting back to it which is really nice. But it is really, man, I can't tell you. I'll be really honest with you guys. I went through a really shitty breakup in September-ish, and I didn't write anything for like three months. And it was really, it was really hard to
to obviously to go through a breakup and stuff and all that, you know, it's hard for everybody. But like, it was, I felt like I was like two different people. Like I was like sad breakup, Evan and guy that needs to write some books.
and it was really rough like it was because I knew every day every time I laid down to go to sleep I was like that's another day I didn't write it's another one like it's just we're stacking up these days like am I ever even going to get back to this like I was just handed this amazing opportunity and now like Because I don't want to, like, give myself a little kick in the ass and, like, actually get some routine going. And so I'm very also grateful.
saw some kind of light and was like okay like you gotta get up and write like even if it's like an hour five minutes even you know like just do it every day yeah i went through something similar after you know i didn't have a breakup but i had like a just like put everything into mushroom blues and like the marketing launch and all that stuff so much work and it's just like i felt like I got to this point where I was like, I've spent way more time marketing than like my creative.
I think it's natural for creativity to ebb and flow a little bit though, right? There's definitely, to the point that you made, sometimes you do have to show up. It's a job, especially if you're on deadline. And do the work when you don't want to. But it is important to be kind to yourself when you are struggling with something or when your brain just isn't braining. So, yeah, I think there's a good message of man.
Yeah, I think that's really true. Totally. And I do afford myself some of those moments. Like yesterday, I didn't write. I went golfing yesterday, and then I came home and played. I'm watching The Terror on Netflix right now, the Dan Simmons book adaptation. It's awesome. It's really good. I was like, should I write? And I was like, you know what, let's call it a day. Let's call it a day off and get to it tomorrow. And that's what I did.
Obviously, after those breaks, you know, you get weekends at a regular job, too. Yeah! Or if you're at a restaurant, like, mid-week. You get, like, out Tuesday, Wednesday. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever they decide to give you. Whatever they decide. You can pick up shifts, too. You can pick those shifts up, too.
It's really awesome to be able to. I write a lot on my laptop, and so my brother lives in the same apartment complex as me, and we hang out sometimes. He'll ask me to just... We'll just kind of spend time together. But I'll bring my computer with me and write. And I might as well admit this to your audience. Like, why not? But sometimes I will...
while I'm watching TV. Do you ever do that? No, I've never tried that. My brain does not. I was going to say, I can't even write while I listen to music that has words, so that feels like witchcraft to me. the way that I do it is like, I'll put on something that I can ignore, you know, like the office or like a movie I've seen like a million times or something.
And it's so weird. I wish I could explain it better in some kind of inspiring, articulate way, but I can't. But it's just like, if I'm kind of struggling to find that kind of... motivation to like get up and get some work done i'll even give myself that i'll be like why don't you just like watch some tv and just kind of putter around in it for a little bit you know at least get that steam engine turned on you know like maybe there's no steam yet but it's like at least
at least sit with your laptop open, you know, and that seems to work really well for me is like setting myself these really attainable, small little goals and reward systems where it's like. it kind of breaks it up and it makes it seem like, okay, you know, this isn't Evan, go write this book. It's, let's write a few sentences about that thing that we liked, like that part that we're in, that we're trying to fix. So that really helps a lot.
kind of bringing down the pressure, taking it off that pedestal a little bit and saying, Hey, like, it's totally cool. want to work on this while you're you know like listening to music or you know like outside on a patio grabbing some coffee and i've i hang out with my friends sometimes who are a couple of my friends are um in college and They will work on some of their schoolwork stuff and I'll work on my book and we'll just go hang out together.
It's been really nice to figure out those kinds of variances. It doesn't have to be you in your best suit. With perfect posture, like writing, you're a great American. You have a cigar, and you don't have, yeah, it doesn't have to be that. If that is your jam, go for it. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it like that. If you're writing your book with a quill, that's fucking crazy. And we all have our different processes. But taking it down a peg...
It is serious in the sense that I think that connecting with an audience is serious. Like this is serious business we're talking about here, but the process doesn't necessarily have to be like this really rigid, serious thing. Yeah. At least from, I like to think about it as like big goals are comprised of compartmentalized small goals. Yeah. It's like the more you can kind of like. just level things out where it's like you can make a step forward without
without feeling like it needs to be a giant leap forward. It's like sending fucking astronauts to the moon. How many little steps... Conspiracy theory. I'm not doing that. I'm a white guy on a podcast. I felt like I had to do it. Just stir in the pot. Thank you for our video watchers. But it's like there are so many small steps that are accumulated into into that end goal of someone's different we attach like a coffee maker to a grain silo I'm just kidding I do believe for the record I do think
For the record, yes. Evan is not a conspiracy theorist in that particular regard, at least.
Yeah. Fucking hell. Derailed, Evan. Sorry, my bad. I wanted to get your take on this because it's like, everything we're talking about, somehow you managed to start writing more seriously while you... and how like because what you you mentioned chaos buffet like nothing seems like more of a chaos buffet to me than touring as a musician yeah definitely how the fuck did you do that and like does that Where Angie Kills a King was kind of born was during...
oh definitely not i mean so like i was reading a bunch because um the band i was in um we were touring a lot in the in europe and we did a few like united states and stuff um but for a lot of those tours i was just reading i mean like i read michael sullivan I don't think there's anybody. I was reading those. I finished up The Wheel of Time. I read a lot of Stephen King while I was on tour.
And then eventually, on one of those tours, I was like, I'll bring my laptop along and try this out. And to your question, one of the ways I was able to do that... in any way at all was because a lot of those dates are kind of far away from each other so it's like you're sitting in a van for four, five, six hours, sometimes longer. So I fortunately am able to read or type.
car because i know that a lot of people can't do that so i'm very grateful sorry to all the car sick people yeah that's like a i'm so glad it's like that and i'm not lactose intolerant And it's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm so sorry. Like, y'all, I just, like, what a life. Like, I'm so sorry, you guys. But anyway. Yeah, so it's like a lot of times just sitting. And then, you know, even when you get to the venue, we weren't like a really popular band. It's not like we had like legions of fans.
It was like, we'd get to the venue and they'd tell us where to put our stuff and give us a couple of drink tickets. We'd leave. I mean, just sitting around smoking cigarettes, like just waiting to go on. It's hours and hours of sitting around. So that's why I was able to get so much reading done. And then, I mean, I was able to get a lot of writing done, but it was like, you know, I was starting out and I think I was just, I was trying to familiarize myself with just the process.
ideas and building out scenes and stuff um but it was nowhere even close to i mean i don't even have like that refined of a process now but it wasn't even close to that at first and um i think that stuff and I'm like yikes Your truck novels were like a car trunk novel. It was pretty bad. But I kept doing it kind of off and on when I could. You know, I was working my regular jobs and stuff and then there was like band practice and shows and it was pretty busy.
And so the writing had kind of taken a backseat. And then around COVID was when it was like, okay, now we're doing this. This is like an everyday thing. I'd take a little break. but it was a lot more consistent. And then it became way more consistent when I started posting online. And then it was like, okay. Now I've got some people that actually might care about this if I did put something out. So let's really have a go at it. But before I wrote Anja Kills a King, I wrote...
I got to the end of three drafts. I didn't write three books. Thank you for that clarification. You're like, I finished this, but it is still a mess. I had three things. One of them I still kind of want to pick out. One of them was really cool. It was like a park ranger. who was in charge of all of the cryptids in a certain area.
country um so it was like it was like his responsibility to make sure that like people didn't find out about these things uh but also he was like their caretaker and so and then something came up that kind of would disturb it all It's like Fantastic Beasts meets Firewatch. Sounds amazing. Or like X-Files. Yeah. And I dug that, but it was kind of like... I was still figuring out. I didn't write an outline at all for it. I was convinced that I was a pantser or whatever, which I'm category.
that anymore like i thought i could do it and um that's just a special kind of writer that i am not That was a little identity crisis because I was like, oh man, I'm not like Stephen King. But no, we are not, y'all. I'm still kind of like proud of those, but yeah, it was mostly like COVID and...
you know, reading a lot more, diversifying my reading a lot more because of the community that I had gotten into on TikTok and Instagram and stuff. But yeah, writing on the road when I was in a band was, it was pretty fun because... It was... Like, I'm going to get all mushy. I'm just in a mushy mood. It's because you're hanging out with us. I got a book coming out, man. I'm getting all mushy. But it was really amazing, too.
for the first time be able to sink into something i was creating and i think that the reason i was reading so much when i was on tour was because i mean as amazing as it is to be out in different countries and stuff playing music um you know i mean you are in a smelly van with three people you can't stand for like a lot of it And when you're doing something like that, Everything's in it. like being on tour with with a middling obscure band no one really cares that much about
is rough. I mean, you're always out of money. You're always like, everything's disappointing. Like you're always getting like disappointing emails, things are falling through. And apart from that, it's like, you're trying to navigate like this new.
like either a new country or a new city or like this like rigid schedule with running on fumes gas-wise like all the time you're running on fumes patience-wise with like these people you're with and even if you're like your best friends um you're playing the same songs every night like it's just like this
kind of um it's a grind and i felt like reading books was like a really good way to escape that grind for a little while and i found myself even when i was like playing shows I can't wait to get back into... Like, I'm reading the 13th Wheel of Time book right now. Oh, my God. I'm going to go into that wild spot. Like, I don't want to spoil it. Please don't. The 13th Wheel of Time book. No, I won't spoil it.
It was a really nice way to kind of get out of that headspace for a little bit. As much as I wanted to be on tour and stuff, it's awesome. But then with writing, it was like that. million you know because it's all in my head and like even though like i like i mentioned like there is that discomfort of it not being even anywhere close to the quality that you want it to be it was still just so i got that bug like pretty quick
Like, oh man, I can do anything I want. Like, this is so wild. It's like the ultimate sandbox. And I think at that point too, I hadn't read like as much. Um, and so I think I might've been a little bit more kind of like forgiving about like now I'm kind of like, crap like you can delete that man like what are you doing you know but at the time i was like oh anything goes like this is so cool like hell yeah i'm not like worrying about like ending a
So, and what was really cool about it too, is that the guys I was on tour with were really like encouraging about it and they were really supportive. It was awesome. Like I told them what I was doing. know to their credit like none of them they weren't like oh why would you do something like that they were very like hell yeah why not like do it man like that's awesome that's a good idea and they had seen me reading so much it was kind of a no-brainer for them too um so they wouldn't like
That's beautiful, man. And now look at you. It's like you're on the doorstep of opening this door to your author career and everything like that. Well, it's funny. We're almost here. What's funny is I'm touring again now. Maybe you should write songs while you're waiting for your... I will definitely shower a lot more often on this tour. And Jen and Joe will appreciate that. I will be showered and ready to go. Let's talk about Angie Kills the King. We've made it 45 minutes.
Not really talking about it too much. Sorry, promo people at Tor. Hey, we didn't even set this up with them. Don't mess. Hey, yeah, let's do this for a party, baby. Can you give our listeners an elevator pitch? Just give us the deets. What is it about? Set us at the stage.
So Angie is a 20-year-old around that age woman that's working in the castle laundry in a castle in a city called Lanura. She's been there for about six years. She had been living on the streets before that because her parents had been murdered by... source. She has no idea who did it. At the very beginning of the book, first sentence of the book, she murders the head of state for this country that she lives in.
She had no plan. She just saw him, and she was in the same room as him. She had been told that she needed to go clean up his quarters, and he wasn't supposed to be there, but he was. And she grabs a letter opener and shoves it into his neck until dead. And then she manages to escape from the castle that she was living in. And just runs north. She just goes. And eventually a bounty hunter catches up with her. now going to
drag her back to the city to be publicly tortured and executed for the crime of regicide. So Angie really doesn't want to go. And this bounty hunter really wants to get her there because the bounty is huge. She killed a king. It's about as big as it can be. And the torture would be about as bad as it could be, too. So Angie is really not into the idea of going back to the city. So that's where a lot of... And I really also wanted to do...
what I think in the film business is called a two-hander. I really wanted to try, it kind of came from like wanting to experiment with like, okay, what if we had a story that was just two people? There's obviously some other characters and stuff, but most of the page time... her captor. And I really liked the idea of trying to do as much exposition as I could through dialogue, trying to develop as much of the world as I could through dialogue.
But, you know, it still feels like pretty tightly wound. And I feel like, you know, I could probably have fleshed it out a little bit more, but I'm really proud of the dynamic between these two characters.
Yeah, there's a lot more going on than as you initially thought, for sure. And I mean, from my perspective, it's like those things that... are not said or are implied but don't necessarily go into detail i'm like yeah i'm curious let's hear more and you're telling us that like book two is going to be
much longer and so you have the time to invest in that stuff and I think this first book is really about the characters but when it came to that opening that inciting incident It's like straight up, this is not a spoiler.
synopsis it's like the first line of the title it's the title so sorry if you didn't know that angie killed the king um why was this like uh really brutal opening the one that you went with and how how did it kind of for you and the story you wanted to tell kind of like set the tone for everything um so i think that it's a very jarring opening of the book for sure and i know that um but like i think that the reason that i wanted to do it
just no thought put into any of this really like I mean it really is a plot point that She just saw an opportunity and fucking took it. Like, she was just like, ah, okay, I'm doing it. Here we go. And, you know, she has a reason. It wasn't completely random. There was disdain for the king. Right, but there wasn't a lot of planning.
at all and so I think that I wanted that initial scene to be jarring like oh my god this is happening like i like the emotion that i'm trying to like convey from her and that prologue You know, and if you've ever been in like some kind of like really serious situation, if you've been in like a car accident or something, it's like someone just like stepped in and turned up the volume of your life up to 10. And that's kind of.
You're like in a completely different headspace. Everything's just so intense. You're like shaking and it's just, Oh my God, I can't believe that just fucking happened. And so that's kind of, I felt like, cause I had done a few drafts of the prologue and I had started earlier. in there and oh my god he's there what do i do but i cut all of that because i was just like you know what it'd be so cool if it was just like
Just like, we're doing this right now. Like, holy shit, what a situation. Let's get out of here. But it is jarring for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. Like I went to. convention thing here in oregon a little bit ago and um it was like my first it's like my first time like sitting down with a stack of my books and like kind of pitching it to different people who came up and talked And I just was just like, oh my god, this book is fucking fucked up.
Like, I feel bad. It's got, like, this really bright, like, beautiful cover. I'm like, oh, man, this guy's getting his neck just, like, ripped open in this, like, first couple sentences of this book. And it doesn't really let up like, I mean, it lets up obviously, but there's some other parts of the book too, where even when I was writing.
should I put this in here? Dude, I felt the same way. I opened my book like a... dead kid on a beach so you know i know how you feel i know by comparison raya cutting off someone's finger is like super easy Oh my God. Small digits. We're into Angie as a character. Um, because as you mentioned, this is a very character driven story. Um, the majority of the page time, as you said, is Angie.
i don't know i don't want to spoil anything i don't know what we can say whatever no just a bounty hunter yeah the bounty hunter um but let's talk specifically about angie first how did you go about developing the character of this like laundress turned surprise I mean, I think that it's a bit of a self insert for sure. Like I was trying to think back to. like my attitude towards the world and like politics and stuff. And I was like, am I really? And I just thought I had everything figured out.
Like I could solve all the problems. And I feel like, I felt like that with like personal relationships too. And like with work and just like with everything. And I don't think there's anything, I mean, like when you're younger, you feel like that and it's totally cool. But like what I was trying to convey with Angie is when I was proven wrong about some. It's like physically uncomfortable. I remember I was talking to some, it was like right around the time Trump got elected.
I was talking to this guy I worked with. and um i was just like man none of this matters like what's the point like let's just all bury our heads in this i was serious too i was like we shouldn't try anymore like what's the point this is all fucked and i remember he was like well that's cool you know i mean i'm in an interracial gay couple and it's nice to hear that you're down in the trenches with us and
you know, like it's cool that you can just kind of close your eyes to everything, but this is the life that I have to live. And it like... I was like, fuck.
I'm awful like and it was like this very like I just remember that feeling so I had to go into the bathroom and just kind of stand with myself for a second i was just like man evan you really put your foot in your mouth like so much you like really hurt that person's feelings like and you came off as like so it's just it's just like this wave of just one thing after another and i i really noticed that feeling And, you know, I apologize. and thought about it.
before you write. But all that to say is just like, you know, when you're so confident that your philosophy or like your way of doing things or the actions that you've taken are 100% justified. From a story perspective, it's like, well, wouldn't it be really cool to just bring those consequences to me? Wouldn't it be really cool to shove this right in a character's face and say, no, actually, that wasn't the move at all. And the reason I chose this specific set of events is that after reading...
You know, fantasy books, like a lot of stories in general, they end with the correct people being killed. And I think that that really works, obviously, with a lot of stories. I'm not saying that that's not the way to do it, but I do think it's interesting that a lot of stories that we read end that way, and that's a positive resolution.
And that's where the credits roll. And I thought, okay, well, like, what if you did kill the right people and it wasn't the right idea? Like, what if things got worse, actually? And I think, I mean, you can even see that with something like...
That was a spoiler for a different series. Not going to do it. Sorry. I was like, Evan, wait a minute. That's like a really big deal. Okay, so never mind. But, you know, taking that and kind of... not necessarily like subverting it, but just saying, just asking the question, like, okay, well, like what would happen though if these quote unquote correct people weren't around it?
And so in this world specifically, it's like there is a faction of religious zealots that were waiting for something just like this to happen, actually, so that they could swoop in and seize power. You know, so I'm playing around with that kind of like, okay, so we did this really well-intentioned thing. Angie's not a bad person. but she's an ill-informed person.
She acted in a way that was more for herself than for anybody, even though she kind of says it was for other people. You know, it's like, was it though? And it's not even just in a political sense. I mean, like I've definitely had moments just, I think back to like different relationships I've been in and stuff. acted in this very reactionary, emotional way with no regard for what the things I'm saying or the things I'm doing are going to...
we're going to cause. What's this going to do to my partner or my friends or my community? You know, these are questions that you should really ask yourself before taking some kind of like really drastic measure. And this book is about someone who doesn't do that and the consequences that come out.
not just for her, but for this world that she professes to want to change, you know? And it's, it was, there's some hyperbole there for sure. I mean, like a lot of the things that happened to Angie, obviously. There's no giant eyes squirping. Portland, as far as I'm aware. You've got to cross the Canadian border to find them. Are they really there? They're everywhere. But yeah, I'm proud of it for sure. I mean, I know that Angie...
Angie's not a very likable character, for sure. And I purposely did that. I mean, I would not hang out with her. And I really can say that with my whole chest. Like I really, she's awful. Like she's very confident that everybody has got. And that...
And also, like, there's this kind of, like, victimization that she's going through where she's just like, oh, my God, like, why is all this happening? I didn't even do anything. You know, like, I didn't even, like, he had to die. Like, he sucked. Like, I did the right thing. Like, what the hell? And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, like in a vacuum, maybe you did like, but we're not in a vacuum. We're in a world. This is a living, breathing world with consequences.
tons of other things that you have no understanding of at all, and you just made a giant dent in it, a tear in it, and now the water's going to... is what's going to happen and also you're going to get tortured. You kind of deserve it. I mean, but that's a cool thing. It's like, does she? It's like, that's something that I'm kind of like playing around with.
I can't say too much more without spoiling the plot, obviously. But I had a lot of fun writing it because the other character of this two-hander is much older than... But she doesn't really have all of her ducks in a row either. No, but the act is nice foiled. Sure, yeah. And I really also wanted to play around with this idea that just because you're a lot older doesn't necessarily mean that you're a lot wiser. Maybe a little bit, for sure.
You carry the traumas of your life and the traumas you've inflicted with you a lot longer than the resolutions. Those things stick with you. And they, you're not necessarily like this perfectly well put together person by the time you're an old age, like, of course not, you know? But so seeing them kind of like. come at that point but from different angles and then maybe pass that point at different
It was really fun to write. It was a little difficult to write because of the situation that I wrote. One person has captured another person. One person is that person's prison. And so it was kind of, it was a challenge for me because the captor has no real reason to explain the situation to our point of view. or the reader by extension, right? And so it's like, when Angie's like, why is this happening like this?
I can't have her be like, well, prisoner, like, this is exactly why this is happening. I had to have a lot of moments where she's like, can you just please shut the fuck up? Like, I'm trying to get you across the country and you're asking me why? Like, I just, I don't. And so it was really rough. It's hard. Like I wanted to just be like.
Alright, here's the whole story. Here's the whole kit and caboodle. Let me just give you some info dumping. No, but I had to get creative. And I think I also, to be super honest, this is my debut book and I think I can kind of take... it too and I think that I am proud of some of the mechanics that I used and I think that there were some good uses of different variations of how you could get some of these story elements across to the reader without
rubbing abrasively up against this other mechanic that I have going on. But also, I feel like I probably could have tightened those bonds just a tiny bit and had her explain something. you know what i mean like we can have a few like i don't know like a lapse and like impatience or something where she's like oh yeah i feel like i could talk about i don't know um but that was a that was a tough a tough thing Yeah, I can imagine, man. All in all, I really, really enjoyed it.
Thank you. Loving what you created and very proud of you and very excited. for book two. I was going to say, I can't wait for book two. I'm very excited. Me neither. Yeah, tell me how it ends. Surprise. No, no, we got this. We got this. Oh my god, bud. But yeah, just very, very proud of you and really excited for readers to start. Picking this book up. I mean, by the time this episode comes out, it'll be a week. So, yeah. Yeah, to everybody listening. Let us know in the comments below.
Yeah, really. You're grateful for everyone who's supporting Evan. I was just going to say, seriously, if you're listening and you just bought it or you're planning on buying it, Thank you for giving a debut a shot. Especially in 2025, there are so many banger books coming out this year. There's so much coming out.
It was a pretty short book, but just to give it some of that brain space that you're going to be dedicating to, or that you planned on dedicating to other books, I really appreciate it from one reader to another. beautiful note to end on. We all appreciate you and we hope you appreciate us. And now Evan's going to give us some... Aww. Sorry.
well closing out Evan we got a two part question for you if you can give our listeners and viewers a good bit of soundbite writing advice and then tell us some weird shit give us a weird random Awesome, alright. Let's see. So writing advice, I would say get to the end of what you're working on. You might be in a little bit of a honeymoon phase right now.
excited about this new idea, and that's awesome, but you also might be in the middle, and you might be getting a little discouraged because it's starting to get real. Things are starting to not make sense that you hoped would make sense, and they totally don't. stumble to the end, limp to the end, claw by your fingernails to the end, and then fix it. But I promise you, a perfect ten chapters will never get published.
But an imperfect 30 chapters will get published if you work your ass off at it and you keep getting to the end. so just i know it's so tempting to just like put it down for a second and then go work on this other thing or like maybe i'll go do some world building or whatever i know believe me but like if you can get to the end you'll have such a better idea of like what this actually is it'll start you'll actually really start seeing it in your head and then it'll start
coming together. And I can tell you from experience, there really is no better feeling than seeing it start to come together and it will start to come together. Now give us some later. Oh, weird stuff. Oh my god. You're putting me on the spot with the weird stuff. Okay, cool fun fact. I don't even know if this is that weird, but I thought it was interesting. There are more trees on Earth than there are stars in the Milky Way galaxy.
which i always thought was like kind of weird because i had always heard like the someone furiously typing this into the internet to see if I'm wrong. I read it on the internet. I could be wrong, but assuming that's correct, that's a shitload of trees. That is so many trees. And I kept thinking about it, and I was just like...
Like there are so many trees on this planet. And I think, I think there are like, it's like a similar thing where there's like more bacteria in a single human body than there is, than there are stars. I don't know what the reference is, like the universe or something like that. Yeah, man. There's a lot of gross shit going on. Yeah, thinking about that kind of stuff. I mean, I live in Oregon, and you're from the Pacific Northwest. driving through
like rural Oregon, like through the forest. It's like, you really don't think about it. Like you really don't think about like every single one of those things is like an, or. that's just like sticking up out of the ground really really really high and It's like drinking air. It's just weird to think about. And there are so many of them. I think it's like trillions of trees. Is that right? I can say they're very true.
Yeah, I was saying, you think about all the forests and rainforests. Dude, I've been to the Amazon, and it is literally just like, three trillion trees. Three trillion. Three trillion trees! Like, I can't even, like, that's not, that's two, like a billion's two. Yeah. Three trillion? Sorry, you were saying about the Amazon? Like, being in the Amazon and just, like, the entire expanse of, like, you can't see anything but trees.
like there's just so many it's like it's like going to the ocean like you know you go to the beach sometimes and all you see is just water the amazon is like that but just fucking tree Man, I have a funny story. That's crazy. So I've lived in Oregon almost my whole life, but I'm from central Oregon. So I had never been to the beach until I was like 20. That's crazy. I know. I just never got over there. But so I've seen like, you know, videos.
movies i know what the ocean was you know like we went to the beach one time and i was like i've never been to the beach before and i took an edible Like... bad idea like don't like unless you're like super cool on edibles like I already wasn't super cool on edibles for the first time and so like I I was like let's let's enhance this experience
And so I took like a pretty strong one and, you know, waited a good 45 minutes and here we go. Like we're ready. We're walking to the beach. And so we get out of the car. And I was like, that can't be right. None of this is right. It's so loud. I can't even see it. And so we get onto the beach. I couldn't handle how loud it was. It's too loud. It was so loud and it was so big and I just wasn't ready for it like at all.
and i stood there for like a couple minutes probably it felt like a year and then i literally just turned around and went back to the car and sat in the car and just rode out that high because i just i didn't want to hang out there like it was just it was so intimidating and just so huge and
I kind of feel like that. I wouldn't take an edible and do this, but I kind of feel like that about like the Amazon, like, you know, like the rainforest. It's like, it's just so big. Like it's just this gigantic, vast.
The most incredible experience in my life was being in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. We went out for a night walk, and then during the middle of the night walk, they just said, turn off all your flashlights, and you're just in the middle of the darkness and hearing all the chaos. All the stars, too, probably. Is it super loud? It's so loud. Really? It's so interesting. It's like you go to sleep with those people who are like, I'm going to put on my noise machine that sounds like a jungle.
and it's like it's legit just like that you wake up to the sound like the jungle yeah you wake up to some howler monkeys that are just like you probably remember from like i mean living and you know you too mallory but like living in the pacific northwest it's like i went camping but like the noise output from like the forest here is just like wind through pine yeah yeah it's very peaceful yeah but so in the rainforest it's like just not no it's bonkers dude that's so wild That's a good guy.
Come on down, down to Ecuador. Come on down. Let's do it. I'm going to Detroit. Perfect. Yeah. Detroit, the Ecuador of America. Of the Midwest. And on that note, Evan, thank you, buddy, so much for chatting with MJ and I today. Thanks, everybody. An absolute pleasure. As well, if you contribute $5 or more to our Patreon. and Bing reading from his new novel, Angie Kills a King. we do also support ev and go buy angie kills a king so that he can take more
of the beach and all kinds of other fun adventures. No, no more. No, I haven't. I lost my edge, man. There's no edge left. Give me his edge back. Bye. Bye, everybody. Hello, buddy. All right, well, dude, could you let everyone know where they can find you online? Yeah, I'm under bookreviewskill. It's at book underscore reviews underscore kill. And you can even drop me a line if you want at bookreviewskillpodcast at gmail.com. I've already gotten some really awesome feedback.
about the book and i really appreciate it um but yeah other than that if you type my name in you'll see my face and there will be links under my face Go find those face links. You can also follow SFF Addicts all across the board at SFF Addicts Pod. You can follow me at Adrian M. Gibson. My novel, Mushroom Blues, if you want a little bit of fungi in your life. MJ, what about you? Yep. You can find me across all the main socials at MJKoonBooks. I suck at posting.
And then MJKoon.com. And then, yeah, buy my books. Check out Among Thieves if you want some heists. Yeah, and feed MJ's cat. Yes, feed the Thorin Food Fund. Thorin's hungry. Go support Greta and feed her children. support the people that year.
Very helpful. That's a good note to hand on. Well, that's it for this episode. Stay tuned next week for part two with Evan for our writing masterclass on reading to become a better writer. Until then, keep reading, keep imagining, and we'll see you next time on SFF Addicts.