This is sex ed debunked across generational podcast hosted by mother daughter duo, Christina and Shannon curly, where we talk about all the things you learned
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and follow us at sex ed debunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Hi, and welcome to Episode Nine of sex ed debunked a podcast about comprehensive sex ed, sex positivity and the concept of tell me what you want what you really, really want,
tell me what you want what really, really want to
trademark all rights reserved to sorry, we're your host, Christina, Jenny, curly. Thanks for tuning in.
Today we'll talk me talking about asking for what you want, for the intimacy you want. And the myth that isn't attractive or sexy.
So as a reminder, Last episode, we talked about affirmative consent, and we debunked the myth that consent is just about saying no, it's actually very much about saying yes. So as we continue talking about affirmation and positive sex, it makes sense that we would also talk about not just affirming what you want, but actually asking for what you want to.
And even though asking for what you want is healthy and honest. There's still a myth that sometime somehow isn't sexy, in the context of when you're talking to a partner. That's somehow saying, This is what I feel like tonight isn't sexy. So let's go into talking about where that myths comes from, and why it needs to be debunked.
Yes. Before we get into today's topic, we did want to acknowledge that there is definitely a limitation in the research for non binary folk in this conversation, you know, much of the studies that we're going to refer to not by our choice, but because simply what's available focus on cis women and cis men. Obviously, we hope that there continues to be more research that's more inclusive. But again, we just wanted to take a
chance to acknowledge that. And I think, you know, we'll share any additional resources that we can find. But in this context of this episode, a lot of the research will be about cis women cismen.
Yeah. And I will make a commitment to you guys that I will find the research that's out there, I'm actually be attending a sexuality conference in two weeks, and hope to be exposed to the most current research on non binary folks and sexuality issues. And I'm hoping that there are more discussions around set social norms and sexual assertiveness, across gender spectrums and across
sexual orientation as well. So whatever I find will get posted by our social media, folks, and perhaps they'll be enough to have a whole separate episode on it.
Hope so. Right?
Do I do.
So when we talk about asking for what you want? I think it's fair to say that some of the stigma behind asking for what you want in a sexual or intimate setting is that talking about sex is still considered taboo by a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. And obviously, one of the purposes of this show is to normalize
talking about sex. But from your perspective, could you talk a little bit more from your research from some of the work that you've done, about the hesitancy around asking, and being clear about what you want, you know, beyond just it's a sex is weird to talk about, but why else? Well, there's several layers to this.
One layer is worthiness, you know, believing as individuals were worthy to ask for pleasure, worthy to ask for what we need for what we desire. In fact, even believing that they're worthy of having desires and needs sexually. So part of that is a courage to be vulnerable. And, and that's something that we're very hesitant to do. As a society as a culture, that vulnerability is sometimes seen as weakness, when it really is being courageous.
But on the next level, we're talking about research tells us there are some social norms that hold us back about sexuality in particular, one is a norm around privacy. And there is some research by montemurro and her colleagues, when they talk about women and their ability to talk about sexuality. It's very much kind of like that whole Sex in the City thing, where you can talk about sex, if you're dating casually, and you're hooking up.
But once you're in a committed relationship, boom, the privacy boundary drops. So that's a privacy norm that prevents us sometimes for talking about sexuality amongst our friends, but also talking about sexuality, among your partners. The other one That is probably slightly more relevant to the discussion today is the social norms that hold us back in terms of what we are expected to do as women and men in our society around sexuality.
So the first is, as a student of women in gender studies, Shannon, I think you can speak a little bit to the gender norms around women and assertiveness in particular.
Yeah, well, certainly there's a relationship between how women are expected to act in you know, expected big, big air quotes, how are they expected to act in the public sphere, and then that also translates into the private sphere. And I think we've all heard you know, that women, women who are assertive or you know, bitchy, women who are assertive are asking for too
much. And so it's not surprising that that would also trickle down into something that is really vulnerable, like talking about sex, and sexual needs and sexual desires. And so yeah, I think you know, that that research definitely explains a bit of that reluctance.
And I actually just was talking with my one of my colleagues about a recent study that showed that the social norms have not changed as much as we think. I think there's a perception that the world is changing, you know, around gender norms. But really, we are finding that there are more norms, seeing women as competent, and as competent leaders, but not necessarily having greater agency and greater assertiveness. There's a book that I would recommend that I will post on the resources,
called Girls and sex. It was written by Peggy Orenstein a few years ago. And what she did is she surveyed both young men and young women. But she focused primarily on women because of this cultural presumption that women are now allowed to be more
assertive. And what she found is, although the fact that you see more women in college and grad school in law school, and fairly kind of assertive in their academic and professional world, there is still a hesitancy around assertiveness and their sexuality.
I think another thing that's interesting, because that just kind of sparked it for me is that, I think, and I can say this, from my experience, like talking about sex with my friends, and talking about sex with like other, you know, people in the queer community, other women, whatever, I think that has become something that's more comfortable, and maybe it always has been, and I'm just older now. And it's always been like, talk to your friends about
it. But I think, you know, as we talk about sex positivity, and we touched on that New York Times article and debunk some of the myths around that a few weeks ago, like women are, I think, supporting other women in being sexually agentic and being
sexually assertive. But I don't know that we've gotten to the point where men are supporting women being that way, or if they've changed their presumptions about it necessarily, I think women who are like embracing hookup culture, and embracing, you know, experimenting with different partners and all that I think other women are at the point where they're being more supportive of that. I don't know if society has shifted so much that men are comfortable with
that as well. Well, and I think that's where that myth comes from.
Right? That myth that talking about you, what you want isn't somehow sexy, that we're supposed to be quiet about our sexuality is home, we can talk to it about our friends, but not our partners. But to your point, Shannon, I'm actually seeing some research and actually anecdotally, conversations that I've had with both younger men and older men, is that they actually welcome knowing a little bit more about what their partner wants.
Yeah, I mean, it's funny, because I brought this up to a friend of mine this week, because, you know, we were talking and I said, this is what the next episode is about. And I said, you know, we're talking about the myth of the asking for you want isn't sexy, and he kind of blank stared me for a second. I was like, it was that does not not make sense. And he's like, I'm so sick of having to guess.
And I think that's probably fair for a lot of people whether, you know, whoever it is in the relationship, it is a kind of thing where you shouldn't have to be playing a guessing game.
No, no, you shouldn't. And I think we'll talk a little bit more in the next episode about sexual communication in committed relationships, where where maybe more standing relationships doesn't have to be a long term relationship. But in terms of just beating people, and having a sexual experience, part of being sexually assertive is being able to have that
communication. And as you said, and as the people I talked to, people are like, yeah, wanting, you know, getting the information is only a good thing. I also want to point out that social norms around sexual command communication, impact meant to
Yeah, I was going to ask about that, because I think sexual assertiveness seems like a concept that it's really encouraging women to be assertive about their sexual needs. But, and this is something I think we've talked about before, and we'll talk about more in the future. But intimacy is also a really important conversation. And I would imagine, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that for men, sexual assertiveness comes easier than intimacy, assertiveness does
well and I would really kind of argue that we had to get away from that maybe get away a little bit of the word assertiveness because it's true most of the research on sexual assertiveness, and most of the researchers out there are always developing sexual assertiveness scale for women, like because there's an assumption that men know how to be assertive. So perhaps what we should really be talking about in a more general way, is sexual communication. And you are exactly right. Men
are in a man box. And I direct you to Tony Porter's TED talk is a fantastic TED talk about the man box. And what they says is that men are socialized to be so masculine and to be so strong and so successful and so dominating. That for men, it's harder to ask for pleasure in sensuality, pleasure and intimacy, pleasure in things that don't involve, you know, dominant being a dominant masculine person, so to speak.
That reminds me of the movie Crazy, Stupid Love. Yes. With Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone and Steve Carell and Jodie Foster. No, not to foster the other one.
Emma. Emma.
No, no, the other redhead anyway, Julianne Moore there areother redhead. But it reminds me of this, you know, Ryan Gosling's characters this, you know, she's this very confident male who kind of makes his whole identity about like all the women he brings home from the bar, obviously, sleeping with all of them, you know, he has got a quote unquote, body count.
And at one point, you know, Emma Stone meets him in the beginning doesn't interact with him again, until like two thirds of the way through the movie, when she comes back to the bar and meets with them again, it's because she wants to have sex. And she's like, come here, we're going home, and he brings her home. And that's like, the whole presumption is we're going to go home, we're going to have sex, which you know, not for nothing goes back to our last episode, because she was allowed to
reverse it. He was allowed to say actually, specifically, I don't want to have sex. But they ended up cuddling. And like, in that scene, you realize that, that intimacy and that closeness and that, that the cuddling and snuggling is actually a lot more what he really needed. And part of that came with the fact that in that scene, he was opening up about his childhood and his upbringing, whatever, and really connecting that vulnerability to
intimacy. So while it was really easy for his character to, you know, have casual sex, and then had moves, remember right
have the move
have the move...what he'd never asked for, but what he ultimately needed was what Emma Stone's character gave him, which was physical closeness and intimacy. And, you know, an ability to be open and vulnerable and trusted.
And to keep in mind that one of the other great things about that scene is it was sexual, it was still sexual without intercourse without orgasm, without all the things that men are taught to want deep personal connection. Exactly.
And that is, that is why when we talk about sex positivity, and we talk about this broad definition of sexual activity, it certainly includes intimacy, and closeness and touch, and kissing, and kissing, and the things that are beyond what we've been taught, for example. So talk a little bit, I'll talk I only take a couple minutes to talk about the research because I know that our listeners like to hear the academic side of
things. The research is consistent, that women who are able to ask for what they want saying no to what they don't want, and to just communicate sexually with their partner, experience higher levels of sexual satisfaction, and relationship satisfaction. So the piece that I want to emphasize here, and when we're talking about both genders, is it's about sexual communication. And we know it's not easy, but it's worth it.
So, why is it worth it? What does the research say? Well, you just I know you said that part. But I'm sure there's more research that goes beyond just it's good.
Well, the research talks about looking beyond it's kind of intertwined with the research around sexual sexual gender roles. And what it says is that people who communicate and are willing to discuss their wants their needs, their desires, with their partner, have a deeper connection. And it takes that sexuality and that sexual activity beyond specific behaviors into intimacy. And interestingly, the research on sexual communication does go
across sexual orientations. And when they talk to same sex couples, more of the research is withlesbian relationships. Communication is still the key. And what's interesting, which I find fascinating, the sexual communication for heterosexual women is often around having more emotional connection having more sensuality Having more foreplay, which we'll talk about in another episode, but the sexual communication for lesbian relationships is actually wanting more physical sexual
activity. So kind of goes to...
we're going to have to do a whole episode on lesbian bed death, because that makes a lot of sense to me actually. Like, you know, if you overdo it with the emotional side of things, you can lose the physical side of things.
Yeah, yeah, there is a good amount of research on that. And we I definitely think we need to do a podcast on that. So I think the bottom line is, not everyone wants the same thing. And we're all wired differently. So we need to kind of communicate about that.
Yeah, I think, you know, we talk about the show Sex education a lot, but I think they do a really good job in sex education. That's the show on Netflix, with showing good examples of people learning what they want, and learning how to express what they want. There is a couple on the show. And one of them is really into fantasy. Oh, I love the dress up. And so but you know, they spend a good portion of the relationship doing all these fantasies and doing all this roleplay and
everything. And then ultimately, you know, one of the partners in the relationship just finally says, you know, sometimes I'd like to just have sex and not play, right, you know, and it's like, Oh, right. You know, I hadn't even thought that that might not be your thing. You were just going along with it, because that was my thing. But I think there's so many examples
of that, right? Because some people, you know, want chocolate syrup, other people don't like food play is something some people are into, and not others like me, I think about the mess, and I'm grossed out with you on that. Yeah. So people stuff, some people are like, get your feet away from me. So I think knowing what you want, and being able to express what you want,
is really important. And I'm sure a question that some of our listeners would have, and that we would probably again have to do a different episode on or just maybe provide more resources on as is how do you know what you want?
I've already outlined that episode. Because I think you're right. In some ways, this episode is really more about those of us who've kind of figured it out and are too nervous about talking about it. But another piece is how do we figure it out. And so we will do an episode on that. And I kind of invoke you've some of you may have seen the new show with Gwyneth Paltrow, on goop with sex and love. There is an erotic blueprint. And I would suggest
some of you to look it up. But we will put those resources out before we do that podcast. Because it really is a good tool to understand what type of a person you are erotically. And I think that will be something that will be interesting for all of us to find out. I think I can kind of guess what my erotic blueprint is. But I'm not 100% Sure.
Yeah, we'll send that out before we do an episode talking more about that, so that our listeners can take the quiz and kind of figure it out for themselves. So yeah, I mean, today's myth is that asking for what you want, isn't sexy. And we're debunking that and I think it's not that that's such a mind boggling myth. Right? It's, it's, that's pretty easy to understand that asking for what you want actually is really
sexy. Because if you're getting what you want, then you're more satisfied and your partner is likely to be more satisfied. And it's, you know, a domino effect of positivity. I think what we're also getting out in debunking this myth is that it can be daunting to to communicate, and it can be daunting to be vulnerable. But ultimately, the research shows that it really, really is worth it
Completely. Because what we want to do is make sure that our lives are as full as possible. And that includes sexuality. So what we're talking about here is trying to embolden, you all, give you the courage, give you the courage to be vulnerable, and to speak up with you want sexually, whether it's more touch, more talk more kissing, the benefits to sexual communication are so well established, that having that awkward conversation is most definitely, definitely worth it.
So again, thank you Spice Girls, for really, really, we're paving the way what you need to be
somewhere out there posh is like, that's not what we meant. But you know what, it's in the public domain now, so we can do whatever we want with it. But tell them what you want what you really, really want because you deserve to be satisfied, and you deserve to get what's gonna make you feel good.
And the myth that asking for what you want isn't sexy simply isn't true. It's much sexier to get what you want for your partner not to have to play a guessing game to figure it out. It's guessing games aren't always that fun, especially in the bedroom.
Yikes. So that is another myth what to bed. Thank you for listening to sex ed debunked. And remember to shoot us your questions, comments, stories, feedback on social media or email us at sex at debunked at Gmail.
Thanks for tuning in.
Have a good one.
Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex Ed debunked during the course of our podcast. We have limited time together, which means that unfortunately, many identities, groups and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities and behaviors are changing growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible.
Please remember that all of us, including us, are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up. We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us @sexeddebunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media along with myself Shannon Curley and
Christine Curley. From trailblaze media, our engineering is handled by Ezra Winters