Myth #23: BDSM is Deviant with Ryn Pfeuffer

Tune in to Sex Ed Debunked wherever you get your podcasts and follow us at Sex Ed Debunked on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter Hi. And welcome to Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational podcast about sex positivity, sexual health, and chains, whips, and other good, clean fun. La, la, la, la. Come on. Sponsored unofficially by Rihanna. Yes. On today's episode, we have a special guest interview.

We're excited to introduce you to Rin Fufer, a sex and relationship expert who has written for many well-known publications, including Men's Health, Marie Claire, Playboy, Refinery29, Shape, The Globe and Mail, The Washington Post, and Wow, that's like an amazing resume. Quite. When you really list it out like that. We were fortunate enough to talk to Rin over Zoom a couple weeks ago.

So much like our interview with Jason a few weeks ago, three weeks back, we're going to play that interview for you on today's episode. So ready, set, go. Enjoy. Hi, Rin. Thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it. Do you mind giving us a little background on yourself and how you came upon Sex Ed Debunked and where you are in your journey right now? You're not just a person we're talking to randomly. We found out you love being tied up. Could you come on our show?

So on that note, end of the spectrum. Uh, I have been writing about sex and relationships for 24 years this month, which is a really long time. Uh, and it's been fantastic and great. And I am the keeper of so many people's secrets and I love it. And then like two years ago in the pandemic, I started getting into, um, online sex work, which has also been fascinating for me because it's been, it's really not that big of a stretch from the sex writing cause or sex education.

Um, Yes, there are a lot of people who come to me who want to get off, but it's also this fascinating space where I'm getting a lot of young 20-somethings reaching out to me and a lot of college students who are like, hey, they either want to try on a role play before they take it out into the real world with a partner, or they're like, hey, I'm interested in this kink. Can we talk about it? And I love it.

And so I've been... before I started doing that, I'm like, ah, I've heard of a lot of things, you know, I've been doing this a long time. And then I get into like sex work and the fantasies and the fetishes and the kinks. I'm like, oh my God, like the human brain is amazing. What can, like, what can turn you on and get you off? Interesting line of work. You say you started in the pandemic. So I'm assuming all of your sex work is either on the phone or doing like Zoom calls and things.

Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. Good on you, Wren. Good on you for figuring out who's an entrepreneur. So, okay. So it's always my job as part of the moderation here to also address that some people don't know anything about this culture, right? And so BDSM, let's get into the basics before we get into how it's life-changing. What does it stand for? It stands for bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism. That's extra. It's a mouthful.

Yeah. Well, Hey, I'm in the community. We're used to big acronyms. Yep. Right. So that's the other question is, is there a difference between BDSM and SNM? I think SNM is an umbrella is under the umbrella. Yeah. Yeah. My generation's like, I only know SNM from Rihanna. So that's all we know. That's all I got. Okay. Okay. So yeah. We've got the acronym down. And then I think one of the other questions that a lot of folks have is, do you have to enjoy pain to be into BDSM?

Oh, I don't think so at all. I mean, I think there's a lot of elements of BDSM that don't involve pain at all. There are a lot of dynamics that are just purely psychological and pleasurable in that way where there's, you know, they could be a long distance thing where you don't even see the person and it's, you know, it could be you know, power dynamics where you're assigning tasks or it's, there's so many different ways that this could look like without having actual physical pain.

So it's, I think it's just as much physical as it is psychological and you kind of can choose what you, it's like a choose your own adventure. Oh, I love that. Sexual fun. So can you tell us a little bit about how you see the, the power exchange between a dominant and a submissive? so that our listeners can have a better idea of what we're talking about. We've debunked a myth a little bit that it's about control, but I think it is a little about control.

So let's try to talk about what they call it, capital D, little s relationship. Yeah. I think also that it also can look like a lot of things too. Like you can carve out what you want these relationships to look like. And I've been on both sides of the D slash S relationship I tend to be more submissive in real life, but I've had relationships where I was submissive switch to where I've been dominant.

And I think, again, it's an exchange of power and there is some control involved in it where it's, I feel it's like one person's like kind of driving the bus, but the person, who's on the receiving end has also negotiated exactly what they want. So they're kind of like driving the bus too. So it's, it's, you know, everyone always looks at the dominant is running the show. Set the bus route. Right.

That's an excellent way of putting it where it's kind of, um, I feel like in a lot of ways, the submissive has the control in some ways because it's only as successful as if, uh, you know, the submissive feels safe and is getting what is communicated and, uh, it's like an agreement, you know, and I think both parties are equally responsible in communicating what they want and what the boundaries are and communicating throughout an experience.

So things, um, whether that's using a safe word or negotiating throughout a scene, which I've done, you know, throughout, you know, especially with things, a lot of pain, like there's just been renegotiations throughout, um, So I don't know if that's a good answer, but. No, I think that's a great answer because we had a few, or maybe like four episodes back, we had Lucas on our show talking about kink and the myth that it's about sex and power. And pain. Sex, power, and pain.

And that was one of the big things that we discussed was that it's not, it's actually more about consent and mutual control than it is about anything else. So when you mentioned that that it can be very psychological. I think we also have to clear up for our listeners that this long held myth that BDSM stems from some sort of psychological deviance. I'll bring a little bit of research in for this stuff because it's a huge myth that there's a psychopathology.

In fact, the DSM that talks about what the psychological disorders were used to call it sexual perversion. Sweet. That's okay. Being queer also was a sexual perversion. But what I will say, the language that's been changed right now is consensual sexual diversity. And I think we can kind of rock that term. I like that. That's better. It's definitely better. Take it. I mean, yes, I prefer diversity over perversion. Oh, yeah. Step in the right direction. Yeah, it's progress.

And essentially the way the DSM is now is that it's only considered a pathology if someone is hurt or harmed or not giving consent. But I also want to bring up a really good research project that was done maybe like 15 years ago. And what they specifically did is they interviewed you know, several hundred members of the BDSM and kink community to see if any of these myths held up.

If kink people were more traumatized, if they were more depressed, if they were more anxious, if they were more borderline, if they had any of these personality disorders. Well, it sounds like a lot of folks in the BDSM community might start that way, but it's also through BDSM and kink that they work through a lot of those things. Well, you know what, but that's the myth. The myth is that people in the community start that way.

And what the research showed was that there was no specific personality profile of people who engaged in BDSM, except for a slight, and you're not going to be surprised with this, Rin, slight narcissism or histrionic personality, which goes with the role playing, I think, is that histrionic theater-loving type of personality. But they didn't. Define histrionic for our listeners who may not have vocabulary, please. Who says going, tell me what it is.

Well, in, in personality psychology, when we talk about personality, a histrionic personality is the one that tends to have a lot of flair and tends to be like theater and dramatic. So you do find a few more people in the BDSM kink community that tend toward histrionic personality, and also sensation seeking. But nothing in the literature and the research shows there's anything pathological. In other words, people who practice BDSM and kink, they're not more borderline personality.

They're not more schizophrenic. They're not more depressed. They're not more anxious. They don't have more PTSD. Like all of these things that are supposedly connected with BDSM has been completely debunked by the science, which I think is a really important message going forward that we're talking about, once again, consensual sexual diversity. Not perversion. Not perversion. Not perversion.

So Bryn, from your perspective, I think we should talk a little bit more about the, maybe the positives, but not even just the positives, like parts of the BDSM experience that maybe folks don't know about. Like you talked a little bit about headspace and subspace and you talked about things beyond just pain and power, even though pain and power can be a part of it.

But if you could talk a little bit about your experience and maybe open some eyes as to the other possibilities, I think that would really help some of our listeners. So, uh, My sexual journey has been all over the map. I grew up in a household where there was no sex education whatsoever. And it wasn't until I had sex for the first time and my mother was over listening on the phone call and overheard that this happened, that there was any conversation.

And it was that I was a whore and that I was a slut and I had been quote unquote deflowered and that nobody would want me anymore. And that I was like used damaged goods. And so this was at 15. And so I grew up with this really weird messaging around sex and pleasure. And even though I knew it felt good, I didn't really know anything about it. So fast forward, my mother passes away when I'm 17, senior in high school, you know, your pivotal moment in growing up.

And my knee jerk response was two weeks after she died was to go out and buy a Hitachi magic wand. There's only one thing that can help. It is a classic, though. You went for the classic. Right, like neighbors were bringing casseroles to comfort us. I went to the sex toy store that was, you know, had all the blacked out windows outside Philadelphia at the mall. And, you know, I got this. And at that point, I learned about pleasure, you know, pleasure for the sake of pleasure.

And I was like, Ooh, this is good. Like, no one's here to shame me. I can do this on my own. I was having really bad sex with my then boyfriend. And I was like, oh yeah, like I can, I can do this to myself and it feels good. And so like I learned about pleasure and then, um, that I could pleasure myself on my own terms. Well, fast forward. Um, I didn't really deal with the trauma of my mother's death very well or at all, I should say.

And so for the next nine years, I kind of went down this hole of using sex as a way to fill voids. And so it wasn't very pleasurable. It was really just like that fast adrenaline fix of like feeling wanted, feeling needed for a brief moment. And so at 26, I, you know, this went on for nine years at 26, I tried to kill myself. Like I just, it all came to a crashing halt where I was like, all right, I haven't dealt with anything. I feel so terrible. This isn't sustainable. It's not working for me.

And so that happened. And then at that point I got put on, you know, I started going to therapy a lot, which was great. But I was also put on a lot of depression meds, which made me feel absolutely nothing. And for, I love, you know, that was fun. Right. It was just like, okay, great. Like I'm feeling better here, but I also like to have sex. And so how does this intersect with, And at that point, I started playing around with a few partners with power dynamics and restraints and impact play.

And at that point, I was like, ooh, I feel something. Like, I feel something good. And it wasn't so orgasm-focused, like every other sex message had been up to that point. It was really the psychological aspect that really was... healing for me in that moment and kind of opened this Pandora's box of like, Ooh, there's another way to take care of yourself and heal.

Yeah. I have to take these meds and I do have to go to therapy and I do have to do the work, but I can have this as piece of the puzzle. And so that was really like BDSM and these things, you know, were really kind of the first thing that kind of brought me back to my body and myself and that connection of healing. Initially, it was like psychological, but then I was like, oh, physically, I like the pain and I like this and I like the, you know, the way I feel the next day.

And I like, you know, all, there were so many elements of it. I was like, hmm, let's explore this some more. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting because I think, you know, a lot of what we do on this show is we debunk myths, right? Like that's kind of our, our trope every week is that we debunk a myth. And I think BDSM is one of those things that people don't know a lot about and what they do know, they tend to associate with negativity. Um, Yeah, that's true.

And I think too, that, you know, this idea of exploration and finding, you know, the science will tell us that we can find new neural pathways in our brain to reconnect to pleasure in ways we never thought possible. And I think your experience really speaks to, you know, confirms the science in a lot of ways. You changed the way your brain worked around sex in a different in a way that was totally unexpected. Yeah, I didn't expect that at all.

Like, So finding BDSM for me, I was like, okay, this is, this seems healthy. This seems manageable. This seems, and in some weird way, I felt like my life was out of control at that. It was out of control at that point. And BDSM for me was a way to take back that control because every single one of those dynamics is so controlled. You know, it's so negotiated. There's communication. You know what you're getting yourself into. There's no surprises.

It wasn't like going to a bar and feeling sad for myself and bringing home some guy and being like, Let's see what this happens. All right. You still with us, debunkers? How great is Wren? We love Wren. What a good conversation. Such an interesting human with such an interesting perspective on sex positivity and sexual mindfulness.

In this next part of our interview, Wren tells us more about her experience with BDSM and King Clients in her sex work, how to build and find communities of like-minded sex positive people, and how her experience aligns with That's Right! The research. We love the research. All right. Enjoy. For me, I have a partner who's into a tickling kink, which was something I have never played with before. And it is delightful because...

Like I go to, like I go to Dollar Tree and try to find all these promotables that are like a dollar to tickle with. And I'm like such a child. I'm like, everyone else here is buying like, you know, like cheap dish soap and this. And I'm like, how am I going to get my partner off with dollar feathers? You know, for me planning out, planning out those scenes. Cause I've like, been building up sessions to like an hour long each. And I'm like, all right, what's my plan?

Like, where am I going to start? Like, am I going to start at the ears? I'm going to start at the feet. Like, where am I going to go? Like, what are my top toys?

And so it's like curating this fun experience, um, you're just grinning from ear to ear talking about it so because it's delightfully fun but I'm still dominating this person yeah but they're laughing the whole time and like what's not to love about that that's great joy you know so this brings up a question for me that I've actually gotten from some of our listeners before and I was not the authority to answer it but maybe you are which is what is the difference between a kink and a fetish

Okay, so as far as I do know this, a kink, a fetish involves an object. And so that could be, you know, a fetish for balloons or for latex or for anything that's an object, you know. I don't know, I'm trying to think of other things, you know. Shoes, leather boots, you know. Yeah. And then a kink is... and activity versus fetishizing the object. Interesting. Thank you. That's actually a really good way to dichotomize it because even in taking psychology, kink hasn't really been defined that way.

And I like how you define it. That's just simple, simple. It's an activity that is consensual sexual diversity. Not perversion. Yay. Not perversion. All about it. All about that. Another question that also I was thinking about as you were speaking is if you, um, enjoy BDSM or you're a part of the BDSM community, are all of your sexual experiences with BDSM or do you enjoy sex outside of the tenets of BDSM? That's a really good question. Yeah, I enjoy all kinds of sex.

It doesn't have to be in the BDSM world. I do have certain partners where that's kind of the... that's just what we do and that's what we meet up for. And that's kind of the rules of engagement and our dynamics. And that's fine. But there are other people in my world where our play is more diverse and it can just be like, Hey, I just like rolled over in the morning and want to have straight up sex for the sake of feeling good.

Or it's like, Hey, we're going to get together tonight and create this whole scene. Let's plan this whole thing out and do this thing. Cause it's, I mean, as much as I love being tied up, I don't think I could be tied up like every time. Like, I'm not that flexible anymore. Excellent point. And, you know, when we're talking about variety, variety includes vanilla with sprinkles, right? It doesn't always have to be variety that's impacts and rope or whatever. Sprinkles are good, right?

I am here for all of it. Again, comfort. It's comfort. Like you were saying, BDSM has been described as comfort. All consensual sex can be comfort. It just depends on what you're feeling like in that moment. Yeah. I think a lot of the conclusions that people jump to without knowing a lot about the kink community or the BDSM community is always one of extremism.

But I think what we're talking about and what we've talked about before, especially with Lucas and now with you, is that it's as much as any other consensual sexual or non-sexual experience. It's really just about setting your comfort level. Yeah. I mean, it can be as simple as just putting on a blindfold and like having, you know, an intimate experience that way with just something like a little bit different than what's normal and going from there.

Like it doesn't have to be, you know, all the bells and whistles. Or, you know, some bells and whistles, a few bells, one or two whistles. Maybe like minimal flair. So we've kind of covered the B and the D and the S of the submission aspect. But I want to take a little time to talk about the... sadomasochism part, because that is the pain part or the impact part, which is not part of all BDSM experiences, but it's part of enough that we should at least discuss it.

Because again, a lot of people just have Rihanna as their point of reference. I might be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it. Excite me. Come on, come on, come on. Is there more to it than Rihanna's take? I mean Rihanna's a great role model and all but yeah I mean I think it's again you know S&M can look like so many different things like for me um I like pain I really like pain sometimes and uh Which is supported by the science, which we'll talk about in a minute. Okay, good.

So for our listeners, the M, the masochistic side, is deriving that gratification from receiving. And then the sadism side is the sexual gratification from inflicting, correct? Right. And so, yeah. Both psychologically supported? More so for the... masochists, the people who experience pain. Because in most of these dynamics, the extreme pain is very rare. And I think that's a myth too, that it's always this extreme pain. And you, you apparently love pain, which is good.

Some people, like you, like to push pain. Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes though, but it's like, it's, you know, it's not a constant and it's kind of like when I'm craving that flavor of fun, you know? Well, and it's like all kinds of sex, right? In diversity, most of us don't want the same thing every time in vanilla sex either. So to understand that there's a range in BDSM as well is important.

But what the science says, Shannon, is they've done some neuroimaging of individuals who engage in BDSM and are specifically in the submissive or masochistic category, they do show higher pain tolerance and a little bit more acceptance of pain and more self-regulation. But importantly for other folks who are maybe in the continuum, Really fascinating research in neuroscience shows that the pleasure and the pain networks in our brain are really closely connected.

In fact, in some spots, they overlap. So what pleasure can do, it creates and like what they call an exogenous opioid, which is basically an opioid in your body, which is why it not only increases pleasure. So this is the one drug we are endorsing, right? That says a drug is a great drug. So it reduces, it reduces pain and increases pleasure. Other drugs.

imaging studies show a cannabinoids which is basically what's in marijuana yeah so it reduces your stress and reduces your anxiety but it's proven in brain imaging so it's not just all in your head it's actually in your head and it's doing good things for your body and this relationship and I'm not going to go too deep into the research and I'm, we're going to post some resources after the podcast, but really, really fascinating is the link between sexual pleasure and chronic pain.

There are a few handful of studies where they have taken individuals who have been on pain medication for years. And instead of treating the pain medication, they treated their sexual dysfunction and And within months, they were off all the pain medication. No more chronic pain. Wow. That's so cool. So there's a connection here that needs to be explored more deeply by science, clearly. But in terms of talking about BDSM as being a part of a healthy sexuality, it's there in the research.

We love to hear it. Enable me, enable me with science. You're like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just keep doing it then. Tell your friends, tell everyone you know. Amazing. Actually amazing. Well, I think the relationship between pleasure and pain is so complicated. on so many levels and to take pleasure and pain and make that part of your sexuality should be something that's part of, once again, consensual sexual diversity.

If you want to try it, we embrace that sexual positivity to allow yourself to explore your edges and your boundaries. I think the last thing I want to make sure we talk about, and I know you said this might be difficult to describe, but There's a recent study, this one we'll post, and I can send this to you because I don't know if you have access to all the literature. This is a 2020 study that came out by the Journal of Sex Research.

And the title was, what is so appealing about being spanked, flogged, dominated, or restrained? Answers from practitioners of sadomasochism and submission. Ooh. Yeah, it's great. It's qualitative research. They talk to a bunch, a lot of people who practice space. And so many of them describe this transcendent subspace, much like meditation, and also as an experience similar to a runner's flow.

And you hear about flow is when you're doing a task and you're so focused on that task that everything else just leaves your mind. Does that feel an accurate description to you? That definitely feels like an accurate description. For me, subspace feels like there are no other thoughts in my mind at that moment other than what I'm actually feeling in that moment. And I kind of tune out. If I'm in a room or if it's in a public space, I don't hear other noises.

I'm like really unaware of who's around. I'm really just in that moment and really just focused on how I feel. And it can be something like so basic, like, oh, I'm feeling a finger drag across the palm of my hand. I rarely slow my brain down to focus on things at that level. We can relate. It's right. Like who does, who has time? And so it's like, Oh wow. Or like the breath on your neck or whatever. And I just, for me, it's kind of this like euphoric space of floating.

It's almost like after you get a really, really good massage and you've drooled on the floor and like all over the pillow and they leave the room and you have that moment, you're like, just, You don't want to move because you're not sure your legs are actually going to move. And you're just in that space of floating and feeling completely blissful and just there for that period of time. Yeah, this is super. I mean, I'm literally just looking at it now and I'm like, this is amazing.

But it's very interesting. One of the sections talks about altered states of consciousness and moving from mindfulness to transcendence. Yeah. Which is very cool and certainly not something I think that your lay person would relate to BDSM. So for people listening who are struggling with meditation, this is an alternative meditation, basically. We're not saying, but we are saying. It's just an option. It's just an option for you. Right. And you may have like a bonus side of like orgasms with it.

You might. What an amazing bonus. Right? Like, Sure. So, Ren, if you had to give a couple words of advice to people who are interested in getting started in the BDSM space, but are scared, apprehensive, not sure where to begin, what would your advice be? There's so much guilt and shame around these circles, and there shouldn't be any... There's nothing to be afraid of. What people are seeking is perfectly normal.

It's just finding the other people out there who are involved in the kind of similar interests that you are.

And for me, finding those like minded people was has been going to parties, kink events, or, you know, more so than just like a straight up sex club where it could be people just having vanilla, whatever, swingers and vanilla sacks or whatever, like going to something that's focused where you know there's the possibility of what you may be interested happening or that people are there because they're curious or they're experienced, but they'll all be under one roof together.

And that way I've gotten talking in those spaces. I've talked to people I met people that way where it's like, hey, I'm interested in exploring this thing. Are you interested? And you can kind of get, for me at least, I get a better sense of meeting people and what my trust level is meeting people face-to-face versus via, like, FetLife is great and all, but I just have better luck with the connection in person. And it doesn't have to be, you know, sexual chemistry.

It's just kind of like, how do I feel in this gut? How do I feel in my gut being around this person? And would I feel having the conversations and would I feel safe being put in a potentially vulnerable situation or exploring these things? So going to events for me has been really the gateway to building that community.

And now as a result of going to those events, I have, you know, partners that i play with for certain things i'm part of some uh facebook groups with common interests where people regularly get together to play and explore things and it's kind of um it's almost like adult play group in a way where it's you know it really is when they bring up kinks it's kind of like nobody bats an eye it's just like all right you're just a healthy human being and let's talk about it and see if we can do this

thing yeah it's pretty refreshing So, Wren, how would somebody find the community? Like, I definitely think FetLife is good for listing events. If your town has a center for, you know, like a sex-positive kind of community center, I know some small towns have them on the West Coast, but I don't know across the country what that looks like. Yeah. those things. I also look at like, who am I following on Instagram? It seems like a sex positive human being and where are they located?

Um, and seeing, you know, like there are people like, you know, like rope is my, it's kind of my big thing. So I'm like, I follow all these rope people from all over the world, um, looking and seeing like maybe like what your interest is in your community. So, cause a lot of these places will have classes or, you know, like a workshop. Um, and then, If there isn't, I know not everybody has the luxury of living in a place that can support kink communities or kink events or whatnot.

And in those cases, I know a lot of people that will travel. And again, I know that's a privilege, but we'll travel to a larger city and find those spaces. But then again, in other terms, I have found partners... by online dating by just being really clear in my profiles. If it's like, hey, like, and I change my profiles all the time where it's like, hey, I'm looking for whatever friends would benefit or hey, I'm looking for a rope top this week or I'm looking for whatever.

And then at that point, you may get it, you may not, but it's easier than, you know. Very explicit and clear about what you want, which is what BDSM is all about. Here's my wishlist. Let's make it happen. So I've met some kinky people that way. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, a lot of times in the earlier episodes of this show, we were like, don't find your sex ed information online. Like you're very rudimentary, basic stuff online.

But I think in terms of finding communities, the internet is still a good place to do that. Whether it's FetLife or subreddits or wherever it is that you find your like-minded people, it's a good place to find that community. We learned a lot today. I learned a lot. Yeah. I learned a lot. Like, We're all learning.

Hey, that's the point of our show is that we don't necessarily know everything because we don't, but we hope that through useful conversation and research, we all learn something every episode. It's nice to learn from like, like this is the way I feel, but here's the reason why. And that's what you bring to the table, Christine. Like here's the science why it's not just you. making this up in your head, like, yeah, it feels great. This is not psychosis. It's actually.

Hey, it's an important piece, especially when you're entering these areas where people are uncomfortable and they're trying to explore new things to know that it's okay. It's such a huge message. Or like, I just want everybody to be happy and experience as much pleasure as possible. It's really like at the end of the day, let's all just feel good. She's a woman of the people. Thanks for tuning in.

We hope you enjoyed listening to our interview with Rin Fufur, a queer sex and relationship expert and just all around cool human. I definitely learned some new info today about BDSM and I hope that y'all did too. And as you know by now, the myth that BDSM is deviant is far from the truth. Far from the truth.

BDSM can have many benefits, including helping healing from trauma and centering oneself, as well as improving comfort with self-exploration and rediscovering your body and pushing back And it's perfectly normal to want to experiment with it, consensually, of course. Consensually and comfortably. Comfortably, but as we said, consensual sexual diversity. Not perversion. BDSM, not bad after all, actually can be kind of great. So that is another myth. Put to bed. Thanks so much for tuning in.

If you have any follow-up questions for Wren, Christine, or myself, feel free to drop us a comment. or a message at sexeddebunked on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or shoot us an email at sexeddebunked at gmail.com. Thanks so much. Have a great day, y'all. Thanks, y'all. Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex Ed Debunked.

During the course of our podcast, we have limited time together, which means that unfortunately, many identities, groups, and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities, and behaviors are changing and growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible. Please remember that all of us, including us, are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up.

We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at Sex Ed Debunked on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media along with myself, Shannon Curley, and Christine Curley. From Trailblaze Media, our engineering is handled by Ezra Winters.