Myth #2: Birds & Bees Are The Whole Picture

Christine  0:07  
This is sex ed debunked, a cross generational podcast hosted by mother daughter duo, Christina and Shannon curly, where we talk about all the things you learned 

Shannon  0:15  
or didn't learn 

Christine  0:16  
in sex ed, 

Shannon  0:17  
and where it all went wrong. 

Christine  0:18  
From the abstinence curriculum to the monogamy myth. 

Shannon  0:21  
In the vast spectrum of rainbow representation.

Christine  0:23  
 We'll get real about sex positivity, and catch you up on everything from proper anatomy 

Shannon  0:28  
to the holistic benefits of a great sex life. 

Christine  0:30  
Tune in to sex ed debunked wherever you get your podcasts

Shannon  0:34  
and follow us at sex ed debunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Hi, and welcome to Episode Two of sex ed debunked a podcast about comprehensive sex ed, sex positivity and why watching the miracle of life is maybe more traumatizing than it is useful.

Christine  0:56  
We're your hosts, Christine and Shannon curly. Thanks for tuning in. Today we'll be talking about the myth of the birds and the bees, 

Shannon  1:04  
buzz-buzz

Christine  1:05  
The birds and the bees is a myth. because it assumes that if you know about the biology, or in most cases, the anatomy, meaning the parts, you know enough about sexuality to do the things.

Shannon  1:18  
As a reminder, last time, we talked about sex ed in the United States and debunk the myth that it's in any way comprehensive. As a second reminder, one of the worst states for sex ed is hold your shock, and it's gonna shock everyone. That's right, Texas. So obviously, we'd be remiss to not talk about the recent, appalling abortion legislator, aka crimes going on in Texas. So before we jump into this topic for this week, let's talk about why we probably could have seen this coming with Texas,

Christine  1:52  
it's a little hard to know where to begin with Texas. But one thing I'm going to remind you guys is Texas thinks they have comprehensive sex ed, and a couple of facts about Texas. they emphasize sexual abstinence before marriage, bad idea. They state that homosexual conduct is not an acceptable lifestyle, horrific 

Shannon  2:14  
news to me, 

Christine  2:14  
and they teach that sexual activity before marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical consequences. And how's that worked out? Well, they have one of the highest unwanted pregnancy rates in the entire country and in the world. And to by way of contrast, when we talk about the Netherlands, we talk about the Dutch we talk about other Western cultures that have comprehensive sex ed, one, kids actually have sex at a later age, kids are much more comfortable taking responsibility for their sex lives. And there's a lot less unwanted pregnancies. And when I say a lot less, nine times less. So Texas, is going about this ass backwards. And clearly, this is not about a right to life. This is about controlling women.

Shannon  3:14  
Right? I mean, Texas has I mean, abortion itself. Is it a woman's issue? It's a men's issue. It's a race issue. It's a class issue. It's a human issue. But in Texas, they've seemingly decided that above all else, it's a political issue. And I've got to tell you weaponizing women's bodies as a battleground for political bargaining among a bunch of old white men, really makes me feel some type of way.

Christine  3:38  
Yeah. And it's hard to kind of, I mean, obviously, we can't cover this, all of this in one podcast. But really what the point I'm trying to get across is, if they really, if states like Texas, places who really strongly, strongly believe in reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies and reducing the number of abortions, the way to do it is through sex education and telling kids about sexuality at a really young age. What they're doing in Texas right now, is an affront to constitutional rights, the rights to privacy, body autonomy, the right to private healthcare information. It's bringing it back to really the Dark Ages, which is quite frightening. But bringing it back to the myth we're debunking today that the birds and bees is all there is what they're doing in Texas is just talking about anatomy. And they're just talking about the physical biology they're forgetting that sexuality is more than biology and anatomy, they're forgetting about emotions, psychological components and social context of sexuality.

Shannon  4:47  
So the birds and the bees and yeah, like there's obviously more to it, but even the birds and the bees, this was something that was interesting to me, because I didn't know the origin of this. So I looked into it because, of course, even just when you think about it beyond the slightest surface level, the Birds are white, like what is birds and bees as it relates to human sexuality aren't like, birds are allegedly like the female in sexual intercourse because they lay eggs. We don't do that. And then the bees are the male because they pollinate flowers, which is just, I mean, really. So I was curious about this, and I did some googling. And so initially, these phrases of the birds and the bees were used in like pastoral poetry. So like Samuel Coleridge, whatever, but it was never explicitly sexualized. And then it wasn't until Dr. Emma Francis Angel Drake, try fitting that on a Scantron card published the story of life in 1909. And that's when that phrase started being used to describe intercourse. But the interesting thing is that the story of life itself wasn't that popular when it was initially published. What happened was that it got picked up by safe counsel, which was a home medical reference book in the late 19th and early 20th century. And unfortunately, seek counsel sounds okay, on its own until you find out that the alternate title for safe counsel was practical eugenics. Yeah. Yeah. So I was looking at, I was seeing if I could find a copy of it. But then I also didn't want to, you know, spend money on buying a car. But an Amazon review of the book says, and I quote, if you want to understand how the Nazis could do what they did read this book. So again, yikes. And maybe let's move away from the home birds. And the biggest thing, right, like now that we know, maybe we should never speak of it ever again, also, not to at Texas, but I'm gonna go ahead. And at Texas, it sounds a lot like what they're doing right now.

Christine  6:40  
It really does. And it's, it's, you know, the birds and the bees has become part of our vernacular, right? It's how we feel comfortable. And we're like, oh, I'm going to tell them about the birds and the bees. And it is completely irrelevant. However, to the extent it allows us to bring up a conversation and say, you know, let's start with birds and the bees, it's perfectly fine to start with anatomy. But there's a lot more to it. So let's start a little bit. I was just wondering, Shannon, and I know this is kind of maybe gonna throw myself under the bus. But do you remember when I talked to you about the birds and the bees?

Shannon  7:18  
Yes, I remember when you told me I was a bird. No, I mean, the I think the extent of the conversation that we had was completely just related to getting your period. And I do remember, because we were at a pub, he was like, you're like, let's go out to dinner. So nice. And I was oblivious to the fact that that was a setup. And then I remember, you're realizing something was off, because we ordered an appetizer. This is so unusual. We never, we never do this, this must be a special event. And the special event was you being like, so by the way, your body is gonna start changing and you're gonna bleed a bunch. And I was like, what, but I think also the reason why it was such a difficult conversation for me, and like, such a kind of, you know, off putting conversation for me was because up until that point, I barely had any conception of my own body. So then to have the first conversation be, it's gonna start like bleeding. And you're now you can have a baby when you're, like, sorry, but it wasn't, I mean, but it wasn't your fault. The point is, like, the conversation should start earlier. And it should also be more comprehensive, because if the first thing I learned about my body is that it's gonna, like, bleed. That's not a great intro to like, here's how your body works. And here's how you interact with it.

Christine  8:36  
Oh, that's true. And that's why like the next podcast, we're gonna really devote a whole a whole show to kind of talking about better ways to start talking with your kids. And you know, maybe your niece or your nephew to about the birds and the bees. But in my defense, my birds and the bees talk with my mom. 

Shannon  8:57  
We should stop saying birds and the bees, we should call itsomething else. 

Christine  8:59  
Yeah, well, the first talk, and I don't want to call it the talk. 

Shannon  9:02  
My first Body Talk, 

Christine  9:04  
let's say, the first time I was told that my body is going to change from that of a kid to something different. My mom was definitely as I think we mentioned in other podcast, very strict Catholic. Me and my sister got a box put on each of our beds. And it was all of the things you need to know about getting your period and back then it was um, sanitary pads and belts, which is very frightening. A belt? Yep. Yep. There was no adhesive back there. No. Yeah. Okay. No word of a lie. I really thought that I was hoping I would be the first woman on the face of the earth never to get her period. So I

Shannon  9:53  
probably had the similar feeling though, and I got my period really late. So I was really optimistic. I was like, this is it. I might miss out. My mother

Christine  10:00  
daughter, I guess. But we don't want to go to down too far down that road except the point being that most kids, all they learn about is biology. And when they do they learn it at a time where it's kind of almost too late because we they haven't spent their whole upbringing talking about it. So the myth there is not only that she wouldn't you say the birds and the bees, but it's certainly not enough.

Shannon  10:29  
Obviously, this topic was really important to you to talk about even before Texas one, you know, full Handmaid's Tale on us. But let's talk about more about the relationship between anatomy and sex and sex education. You know, what is that bridge between understanding your anatomy and moving towards more positive sex education,

Christine  10:46  
I will start by saying, Let's get a little academic for a minute. The reason that the talk was allowed to be about the body and anatomy is the people in the movement to say we need to start bringing sex education into schools, for example, had to find a way to get around the moral judgment. So it was a loophole. It was a loophole, because they turned it into science. And they turned it into about being about facts. And you can talk about facts in school, which is, which is, well, now you can, but now you can, there was a time you could talk about facts in school. But at least it's it was intended as a starting point. And unfortunately, in most school systems, and in most environments, it's the end point. And really, as we talked about in the first podcast, there needs to be more talk about personal relationships. And morality is not what we want to bring into the classroom. And so what happens is, because sex education stops at biology, kids are forgetting. And they're not being taught the feelings, the emotions, the context, and the things that they really have to know about growing up. So biology, not only is it not enough, but it's being taught poorly. They don't tell kids about more than one gender, it's all binary, they don't properly identify parts, which is horrific, right? So those are part of the downfalls of even how it's already been done.

Shannon  12:24  
Right. So, of course, this makes me think about my own experiences with you know, obviously, our birds and bees are BodyTalk was pretty limited. But also like in school, this is something they're supposed to start talking to you about, pretty early on. But I remember boys and girls, you know, quote, unquote, boys and girls being split up into different rooms to talk about anatomy like you. And I remember explicitly that our health instructor said, what we talk about doesn't leave this room. And it's like, well, yes, it does. Because we're going to go out into the world and beat people with bodies. So it is going to leave this room. But what are your like, from an academic standpoint? And from what's wrong with that standpoint? Like there's obviously we understand what's wrong with it, but what's wrong with it?

Christine  13:05  
Well, I mean, first of all, I'm kind of shocked that that was your experience, too, because 30 years ago, it was the same thing. Everybody go into separate rooms. And what does that do? What does it do? It creates shame. It creates this feeling of one othering. Right. We're not all in this together. Well, last I checked, we are all in sexuality together. And we shouldn't be separating the boys, the girls and who's to say, you know, you've got so many kids these days that aren't identifying as a gender. So how the hell are they even separating kids right now? 

Shannon  13:37  
I mean, that's what I was thinking is it's boys go over here, girls go over here that just forces people into boxes, it forces kids into boxes. And I know that the conversation about gender has evolved considerably over the years, but I have no trouble believing that the boys go to one room girls go to another is still the way that this is being taught. And I think it

Christine  13:57  
is, I think it is I have to I have to ask some of my friends who have school aged kids what they think about that and you know, and and I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is what this does is it makes this whole evolution of how our bodies change as something that we're supposed to keep hidden right? And so it's starting from a young age, this perception that sex isn't a good thing that your body isn't a good thing right? So you're starting like body shaming at the age of like nine that's ridiculous when it and then it results in you know, not just discomfort with your body but

Shannon  14:32  
discomfort talking about your body like those are all words that you were inappropriate. You know, talking about words to describe your anatomy was on the same level as cursing. You can't say it you can't say penis. You can't definitely can't say vagina like you can't say those things in when you were a kid. I was taught no no square You know, that's me.

Christine  14:53  
Excuse me. Wait a minute.

Shannon  14:54  
No, no square guys. Yeah.

Christine  14:56  
What is the no no square I

Shannon  14:58  
mean, it's the no no square.

Christine  14:59  
I have no idea that is a that is definitely something if your generation not

Shannon  15:03  
my generation, it's what I was taught was no, no. Like, as in Don't touch that. Whether you're a boy whether you're a girl Don't touch your vagina. It's a no no swear hands off. And the funny thing is like boys were girls I think felt shame around using these words. Like I definitely was not comfortable saying vagina when I was 10. But I feel like boys weren't ashamed of it. Or maybe they were but the way that they manifested it was with humor. Right? So like, boys were allowed to say it, but only were allowed to say penis, but only if they were yelling it, you know, on the bus as a game. You know, there's

Christine  15:35  
a game Oh, yeah,

Shannon  15:35  
the penis game. It's where you, you just progressively say the word penis louder and louder and louder until you're actually causing disruption, which I found out is actually alive. And well, because I was at a high school graduation party a few weeks ago, and it started getting played. And I'm like, there's no way. There's no way people are still playing the penis game. But of course they are because it's still a word that nobody wants to say unless they're making a joke about it.

Christine  16:02  
Wow. Yeah. And let's just say no one's gonna be saying the vulva game.

Shannon  16:08  
No, that's true. Although I'm not sitting here on like, you know, pretending that I didn't play.

Christine  16:15  
Oh, did you win? I know you're quite competitive Shannon. No, I

Shannon  16:20  
don't win. Unless you consider it a win that when we used to play on the bus, sometimes the bus driver would pull over because of the memories. Yeah, I don't know if it helps normalize the conversation to just yell penis out loud. But it was a start, I guess. And I mean, we were more comfortable saying that than anyone would have been comfortable saying vulva. So maybe that's the next wave of body positivity. Teaching body anatomy is, you know, don't stop playing the penis game, but just also started playing the velvet cave.

Christine  16:49  
Well, and that's the point to that I know drives, you know, kind of drives you crazy a little bit. But everyone talks about the woman's part of pleasure as being the vagina. And it's not, it's the vulva and the clitoris. So maybe should be the clearest game because the clitoral is actually the homologue to the penis. So I think that in your group, Shannon, we should start that.

Shannon  17:10  
I mean, I'm an adult now. So I'm not going to just like start the clip game, but we'll see what we can do. But I think the greater point here is that, you know, it is more okay. And it has been more okay for boys to talk about their parts than for girls, you know, cisgender boys, it's been more okay for them to talk about their parts than girls. And obviously, that has long term effects, for both, you know, for kids of any gender. But I think girls in particular, understanding your body and understanding how your body works and your anatomy, if you don't get that education that that's going to impact you in the long run.

Christine  17:48  
And impacts especially that, that body shame because at least for boys, they were able to go into that room and they learn about, oh, you might have wet dreams, girls never heard pleasure. And I've asked this of my classes when I teach human sexuality. And I said, How many of you have learned learned in school about your body parts as women? And universally, it's I think I had one student who said that it was discussed. Usually for girls, it's just about the vagina because it's all about reproduction. Right. So I'm going to take a minute and recommend a couple of books, and we're going to post them on our social media. Highly recommend for all genders. becoming clearer it is specifically the first part of the book is directed towards people with vulvas. But the second half, there's a whole like mini chapter that is for people who don't or want to please them. And I also want to recommend comments you are by Emily Nagurski. She is amazing. And if you don't feel like reading the book, find her TED Talks. She will. She talks so much about feeling comfortable about pleasure and comfortable about your body, and has a great, great chapter explaining how people with wellness and people with penises are actually much more similar than we ever

Shannon  19:12  
think it's great to have those resources and we'll post them but in that sense, it's like, hey, go get your own education, go figure it out. Obviously, we also believe that this is something that needs to be discussed in in schools earlier. So what do you say to parents whose reactions might be well, that's too soon? Or what if this makes my kid think about sex earlier or you know, wants them? They want to be more sexually active because now they know how the body works?

Christine  19:39  
Well, that does tend to be the pushback, like there is a presumption that if you talk about sex, people will think young people will think about sex more. Now let's just put take that apart. Young people are thinking about socks, right? They're thinking about right whether or not you're right. It's in their face. It's on In the media, it's in movies, it's in on Netflix shows everything.

Shannon  20:04  
And also like, their older siblings are talking about it. Like there's, there's just so many other channels that they're going to start thinking about sex in that type. So that school is the only Avenue by which they would be introduced to it is just it's, it's it's

Christine  20:19  
insanity. But but but what school is supposed to do is to introduce you to things in a trusted, factual, credible environment. Do you really want our kids, your kids, your niece, your nephew, learning about sex from the internet? That's dumb. It's dumb. And so once again, I'm going to bring you all back to the Netherlands model. When kids learn about sex at a young age, sex stops being a big deal, it's going to be something that they can talk about, they can be positive about, and it becomes a choice. And kids who learn about their sexuality and about their bodies at a young age, actually have sex at a later age, because they know they want to wait till they're ready and responsible. They have conversations with trusted teachers with trusted parents, with aunts, uncles, grandparents, because it's a conversation. It's not something that's like put in a corner like baby. Yeah, I

Shannon  21:26  
think it's this isn't the same but it what it kind of reminds me of is like, if you if your family or your your parents or whatever, let you have a sip of wine at the dinner table exam, you're not going to, like feel this, you No need to kind of lose control and imbibe when you're in other situations. So it's like if you know about something, and you're allowed to experience it, and you're allowed to feel, quote, unquote, normalized in those conversations, and it doesn't become something that you're like acting out to do, you know, like, right, I'm not gonna go get trash at my first party, because to me, it's okay to sip alcohol. Like I don't, I doesn't have to go to the extreme. So I think we did that right with you skipped out on having any kind of Body Talk. But yeah, that's good. Um, so but I think what we're getting at here to kind of bring it back to the topic that we're looking at today with with the quote unquote, birds and the bees, which we're now going to never speak of ever again, the problem is that there's a focus on anatomy, in schools, and in sex ed in general. And it's not even comprehensive anatomy. And that leaves this disconnect between everything that makes sex good and healthy, mentally, psychology, psychologically and otherwise. And that is the responsibility of structured sex ed to address it's also the responsibility of families, and, you know, parents, whoever their you know, the people are, that are educating the young people in their life is to have conversations that connect anatomy and connect body to the overall well being and holistic, well being of a person.

Christine  23:00  
And basically, sex ed in this country is just about body parts. And and I want to just say for a minute, older people to, you know, people of my generation, what their, what they've all learned is body parts. And now we're all starting to discover this more comprehensive sexuality in our own lives, not just in high school, not just in a school setting, but in our lives. So much more than parts, right? And let's just not just give the basic ingredients, right?

Shannon  23:30  
Well, yeah, yeah, right. I mean, the way that it's taught right now is it's basically like saying, okay, here's a bunch of ingredients that you may or may not have seen before, but you don't get to have a recipe, and you don't really actually get to have any understanding of how to cook properly. And if we don't believe that you should be cooking at all, then you might like, get someone else. But it's like chopped for your bodies, right? Here's a basket of a bunch of ingredients. But unless you're already are well versed in it, then you're not going to know what to do with it. Alright,

Christine  24:02  
and we're not going to teach you what to do, right? And we're not going to tell you that it's okay to cook and cooking is fun. And you can add spices.

Shannon  24:12  
So many spices. That's the episode we will

Christine  24:15  
we will devote an episode to spices because bringing it back to the space. Both spices are what once you learn about the basics, I mean, you know, you can cook a hamburger on a grill, but when you add a little bit she really I'm

Shannon  24:29  
getting hungry. Spice is the spice of life. No, I yeah, I think the point being that it's something you build upon. Right and and this is what we'll talk about, actually in our next episode, because in the next episode, we're going to talk about the talk. But the idea that one conversation about anything isn't enough, whether it's the Body Talk or another talk, like there's there just needs to be more ongoing conversations about this, which, you know, again, bring it back to our charter. It's part of why we're doing this podcast.

Christine  25:00  
That's right. And so we'll, we'll be debunking next week, the myth that you only need one talk. And we're going to really, I mean, I will say it'll probably be really geared to some extent, to people who want to feel more comfortable talking about talking with their kids. But also, I think it's going to be enlightening as a lifespan perspective on sexuality. So it will be emphasizing the continued conversation around sexuality.

Shannon  25:34  
To that extent, we'd love for our listeners to drop us some DMS, comments, emails, whatever at sex ed, debunked, or sex ed debunked at gmail, we'd love to hear about your sex talks that you had with parents, kids, friends, etc. and also maybe your experience with body talks, aka now being struck down as birds in the bees.

Christine  25:55  
Yeah. So um, I think there'll be some conversations about my failures, which I apologize again, but as part of the reason failure is a learning experience. I'm owning it, I'm taking responsibility for the fact that I may not have been the best that I could have been when you were younger and trying to make it up this time around. So thank you.

Shannon  26:21  
But for now, thank you, Texas for unofficially sponsoring our episode, including debunking the myth about the birds and the bees, and also I guess, eugenics. And thank you, as always, for our listeners for tuning in. You want to say mom,

Christine  26:37  
I'm gonna say it. It's not all about the birds and the bees. Another myth put to bed.

Shannon  26:45  
Thank you. Thank you. So remember to follow us on social at sex ed debunked, and stay tuned for next time when we put another myth to

Christine  26:53  
see you. 

Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of sex ed debunked. During the course of our podcast, we have limited time together, which means that unfortunately, many identities, groups and movements may not be represented each week. The field of sexuality and gender orientations, identities and behaviors are changing and growing rapidly, and we remain committed to being as inclusive as possible.

Shannon  27:21  
Please remember that all of us, including us, are learning in this area and may occasionally slip up. We ask that we all continue to be kind to one another so that we can create a truly inclusive and accepting environment. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at sex ed debunked on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. 

Sex Ed debunked is produced by trailblaze Media along with myself Shannon Curley and Christine Curley from trailblaze Media. Our engineering is handled by Ezra Winters