I just thought maybe I could do this. I didn't think I definitely can do this, and that was enough for me to give it a go. So if you have any sort of sense of adventure, or just trying to do something which is a little bit out of your comfort zone, just give it a go.
Hey, everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official podcast of New York Road Runners, presented by Peloton. I'm your host, Rob Simmelkjaer, the CEO of New York Road Runners. And with me week in, week out, my co- host, Peloton instructor, and currently my coach, Becs Gentry. Hello, Becs, how are you?
Hello. I'm good. How are you doing?
I'm doing great. I feel really good.
Okay, good.
We'll talk about my training in a little bit.
We will.
I'm feeling really, really good, and the weather has been nice around here lately.
Yes, finally.
God, it just cooled off a bit. The air quality's not ideal with some of what's left, I guess, from the Canadian fires. You can see it in the air, but I don't know, it hasn't bothered me this year, as it was last year. I've been feeling pretty good, and we've had some good enough weather, I think a lot of people have been feeling good with the running. What about you, have you been getting out?
I have not. Today was my first run since last Wednesday, so nearly a week of no running.
Wow.
It was fantastic. Yeah, we went away to Canada actually, we went to Lake Simcoe on Thursday, for a big family summer get- together. There's like 16 of us who go. And we just did water sports, so if I'm honest, my back and shoulders and arms are really sore from wake surfing and paddleboarding and kayaking, all of the water sports. So it was fantastic to do other things rather than the regular running.
You are having a great summer, with the running that you do, obviously, is part of your job, but hey, you clearly deserve some time just running a little here and there, given all you've done. It seems really smart and healthy, and I love hearing that for you. It sounds amazing, and what's better than being in a lake doing a little water skiing.
Exactly. Yeah, it's funny because you get so tied up in running, as a runner. As somebody who is a hobby runner, yes, it's part of my job, but I love it too. And I don't do other things, I just do running, and life's too short for that, for me personally. Just being there on that lake, I could have got up and went for a run. I took
my running stuff with me. I was in a beautiful location, but instead I was like, " You know what I want to do? I want to go for a paddleboard before Tallulah wakes up, because I can. It's right there." We were on the lake with a dock, and I can't do that in New York. I can go for a run in New York. So it's just that, to me, is shifting your mindset of use your fitness to enjoy other activities
when you're not training for stuff. It's been really lovely.
I love that. I actually love that. It's beautiful. I played a little golf myself, for a couple days this week, which I hadn't done much of lately.
Good core workout.
It's not a lot of... Yeah, a good core workout. Definitely the twisting is good.
Yeah.
I walked too, so a lot of time on feet, which was good, but had to get back to the running pretty quickly. We'll talk about that in a little bit. We had a nice day in Harlem this past weekend, the Percy Sutton Harlem 5K. The weather was so nice for the runners in Harlem. It was so great to see, because that's been a hot race, as you can imagine, in August, up in Harlem, but it was a gorgeous day. On
the men's side, Ryan Couch was the winner, 14: 58. Khia Kurtenbach on the women's side, 16: 49. Non- binary Jack Marley Payne, 19:35. But I think the best part of the day, Becs, is for New York Road Runners, this is such a special event, because all of our programs are on beautiful
display at the Percy Sutton Harlem 5K. Not only did we have the race with 5, 000 runners, we had the Run for the Future girls doing their big graduation 5K. This is a group of 50 young women, high school- aged, rising for this fall, and none of them had ever really been runners before. They had been training with their run buddies and their mentors all summer long, and they
graduate at the Percy Sutton Harlem 5K. And they did a phenomenal job. As you know, that's a hard course, that race course, that's some really big hills there, especially in mile two,
but they did a phenomenal job. And Becs, seeing the look of pride on these girls' faces as they finished this, and they got their medals, and posed for pictures, it was awesome, and it's a beautiful program we have at New York Road Runners, so I really enjoyed seeing them, hanging out with all of them before and after the race, and that was thrilling. And then we also
had races for all the kids. We had stage one, two, and three races happening in Harlem, plus we had our Striders out there as well, our older adults doing their walking thing. They walked a 1. 5- mile course, and it was the 15th anniversary celebration of the Striders program as well. So it was just an awesome day for everything that we do at New York Road Runners.
Oh, I love all of the celebrations and all of the joy. What a perfect weekend.
Now, I was able to take a Saturday off. I did not run Harlem, because I did my long run on Friday, Becs, and I have to say it went pretty well. Becs had prescribed a 14- miler for me last week. I did it on Friday morning, beautiful weather, and it was good. I felt really good. I stayed, more or less, at my marathon pace. This is one thing I wanted to talk to you about, which is pacing for
long runs. Because when I had previously trained for marathons, most of my long runs were just at an easy pace. I really hadn't focused that much on pacing in my long runs before, which probably was not a good thing. And so you gave me an assignment to run 14 miles at my marathon pace. I kind of alternated off that a little. I did about three miles at marathon pace, then slowed a bit, then another three at
marathon pace, then slowed a bit. But I had some really good sustained periods. I was actually a little faster than my marathon pace for most of those kind of pickups, which was good, but then I would drop back a bit. Can you talk to runners out there about, for the long runs, for the most part, how much should they be focused on running at that marathon pace?
Should it be for the whole long run typically, should they be picking out bits and pieces of two, three miles per push, let's say? What do you really recommend?
I personally, and this is every coach is different, I personally prescribe my runners to run all their long runs at their goal marathon pace. You actually hit it. You were fine, even though you did some fast and some slow.
Net-net, I did. Yeah, net-net, I did, because my average was below.
You did. Your average pace was- I gave you 15- second window to fill it in. And that's
Yeah, just under eight minutes a mile.
the thing, is to me, it's more about offering a window of pace range for my runners on those long runs so they get used to having a little bit of variability. Now, the only time I would do something a bit different to that, would be for an advanced runner who is looking to shave time off their previous marathon finish time, and I would prescribe something more along the lines of a tempo versus marathon run in their
long run. It's pretty disgusting. It's the kind of workouts I did when I was training for the Olympic trials. It was mile at tempo, mile at marathon, mile at tempo, mile at marathon for up to 21 miles. It was brutal, but it got my turnover so much stronger, not just that, it got my confidence stronger. So already,
you already said that. You didn't mean to say it, but you already said it in your description of your run, was " I was actually faster than my marathon pace in one of them." So netting it out, if you'd have just stayed on a progressive run within that 15- second window, you would've been fine because you have it in you.
But sometimes just getting that marathon pace in every weekend is all people need in their mind to be ready
to hit that 26.2 miles at their goal pace. And no shade to anyone who doesn't do this, I hate that some people prescribe marathon pace only for shorter runs, because when people get to that start line, how on Earth are they supposed to understand the discomfort of running 26.2 miles at their goal pace if they have never run 26.2 miles, or near it, at a similar pace?
It's just not fair in my mind. And I've run a fair few races to understand disappointment and discomfort, and you don't need to go into that setting people up for discomfort. So as these weeks roll on, you've got 16 at it this weekend, steady cruise, it's just about building you, and you'll see that your weeks are not overloaded
with other things. Your workout, your speed workouts, for example, aren't long and really, really demanding, they're just about pickup and turnover, and the real focus is your long run, because you're going for a hopeful time here.
Yeah, I really like the approach. It's definitely something new for me, but it makes sense. I mean, you know the race environment is going to give you something extra, right? You're going to have a little more adrenaline, a little more speed, just from being in a race, but it comes down to how much you're going to rely on that race adrenaline fr on race day, right? Because you
don't want to over rely on that. If your body hasn't done the work, hasn't done the 15 miles at marathon pace to 20, 22 miles, yeah, I guess really the question is how can you expect it to do it
on marathon day? And so I know there's different philosophies of how much, maybe it's pick up, drop back, pick up, drop back, but at least you've done long, long mileage with a sustained amount of time at your marathon pace so that you know it's in you.
Yes, you do. You got to know it's in you.
I love it. I really love it.
Yeah.
The speed work went well this morning. I still had to go out on the track. I still have not gotten myself onto the treadmill, but it was better for me today. I felt better on the track. It was beautiful. Plus I got my daughter, Julia, to come out and do some speed work with me this morning, and that's definitely not happening than a treadmill.
That's so sweet. But they were longer efforts. When you're talking more like the shorter ones, that can be fun on the tread. It can be fun on the track, as you say. As long as you get out and do it, I don't care. Get it done on the tread, on the track, on the road, you do it, wherever it takes you.
It was so much fun, so things going well from now. We will keep things going, and I'll keep you updated as I work towards Chicago. And of course, so many of you working towards the TCS New York City Marathon a few weeks after my run in early November. Well, coming up on today's show, we have a colleague
of Becs is truly amazing. Susie Chan, she runs in deserts, she runs in jungle, she has run Badlands, and she runs of course, on the treadmill with Becs at Peloton. She just celebrated her 50th birthday, and it seems she's just getting started. She's going to tell us all about her adventures and her book as well. Then our friend, Meb Keflezighi, will be here with today's featured member,
Margaret Schwartz. Margaret ran 20 consecutive TCS New York City Marathons, but lately, she's decided to tread some new ground. She'll be here to tell us what she has learned along the way. And we've got a special Meb Minute with HSS today, the hospital for special surgery, Chrysta Irolla, director of HSS's world- class Prosthetics and Orthotics service, is here with expert tips on how to get the right shoes
and inserts to run more efficiently. Ready to see real results? Try the Peloton app for free and get expert- designed running programs that build speed, strength, and endurance. Run outdoors with real- time coaching, as instructors guide your form and pace every step of the way. Plus strength for Runners, a program built to help runners boost muscle and prevent injury, complements your training so you can crush your
goals even faster. Try the app for free for 30 days, and download it now from the app store or Google Play. Terms apply. Peloton, the official digital fitness partner of New York Road Runners. Our guest today is British ultramarathon runner, and Becs' fellow Peloton tread instructor, Susie Chan. Susie didn't start running until she was 35 years old, when her brother convinced her to join him for a half-
marathon. Six months later, she ran her first full marathon in Paris, and since then, she's completed about 20 marathons, including all six original Abbott World Marathon majors. But, like so many people we have spoken to here on Set
the Pace, 26.2 miles just wasn't enough for Susie. She kept going, went on to conquer the Marathon des Sables, a six- day, 250- kilometer race through the Sahara Desert, and set a world record by running 68. 54 miles on a treadmill in 12 hours. That is like my all- time worst nightmare, I can't wait to hear how she
did this. She also made ultramarathon running history as the first European woman to finish all three Badwater Ultramarathon races in the same year. And along the way, she's overcome serious challenges, including a thyroid cancer diagnosis shortly after running the Chicago Marathon. Susie's also, as if this wasn't enough, an award-
winning author. Her book, Trails and Tribulations, the Running Adventures of Susie Chan, won Sports Performance book of the year at the 2025 Charles Tyrwhitt Sports Book Awards. Susie, what is wrong with you? You can't seem to stop doing things, are you okay?
No, I don't know if I am. Do you know what, it's not until actually I wrote the book, and I was forced to reflect, because I'm very much a forward- looking person, and I was forced to sort of think about all the things I've done. It was like, "Oh, actually, I have been quite busy, haven't I?" And also, some of the things, hearing them back like that, it doesn't sound like
me. I don't know genuinely, how I did some of those things now, because as I'm a little bit older, I'm a little bit slower, things are a little bit harder when I'm running, and then I'm like, " How did I do those things?" So yeah, I've been very, very lucky, very privileged, and I've seen the world through running around on my two
feet. And I think overall, largely loved it all. There were some low moments, as runners experience, but what a journey.
All right, so I don't know where to start. I guess, let's start at the start. So you run a half- marathon with your brother, and did that trigger something in you? You hadn't really been a runner, right, so did you feel all of a sudden, through the process of training for and running that half, that, " Oh, my God, this is what I meant to do?"
It was a bit of a delayed reaction, I'm going to say. I didn't really want to run. I didn't have any interest in it. It sounded awful. And I used to sit at home and watch London Marathon when it came on my TV, in awe of what they were doing, but not really having any comprehension of how far that is, and how much work you have to do to get there. But I was in a bit of a rough patch in my life.
I was drinking too much. I was a smoker. I was in a bit of a life rut. I hadn't had much money, I was a single mom. And I think my brother could sort of identify that within me, and he wanted to run his half. He was signed in for a marathon, he was like, "I'm going to do a bucket list marathon. I'm going to run a marathon, tick it off." And he picked a local half- marathon
to me, to run as a training one. And basically, he said, " Run this with me, run this with me." And I agreed. I didn't really know how far it was either. And I started training, this is when it was 20, when did we say, 2010, something like that. And I had no watch. I mean, I didn't have a watch. I can remember trying to run my first run
around a field. It had two football pitches in it, and I was trying to run around that that without stopping, couldn't do it, and it was just awful. But because I had this goal, I kept on trying to run a little bit further, a little bit further.
Yep.
And then race day came, I was stood there, terrified. Looked around, everybody else knew what they were doing. They all had the gear on. I didn't even have a proper running bra or running shoes.
Oh, man.
Oh, honestly. And then as I was stood there, about five minutes before the race started, somebody leaned over and said, " Do you like trail running?" And I was like, " What's trail running?" And the whole thing was this trail half- marathon. It was like off- road, over fences, narrow, up mud. And so I was so distracted trying not to fall over, I'm thinking " What is happening to me," up these hills and down
these hills. Because I'd been running on a flat road, I was trying to stay alive. And then I got to nine miles, and I thought, " Oh, my God, I'm going to run this half- marathon." And then it just filled me with something which I hadn't ever experienced before. I was very tired, but I just suddenly believed I could do it, and then crossed the finish
line. And then of course, all those finish line feels that you get, and everybody that's had that first race experience, you're on such a high. And I was on such a high for days and days, I thought I need more of this. I need to keep running. That's how it started, and then I went in pretty hard after that.
Yeah, I would say so. First of all, I love that you were running a trail half- marathon and did not realize it was a trail half- marathon until you were at the starting line.
No.
Very different, very different experience than running on the road, but that's awesome. And you're right, the focus you get on a trail run, sometimes you stop thinking about the miles because you're trying not to break your face, yeah.
I was just looking at whatever was coming next. It was like, " Oh, there's some trees. Oh, there's some mud." Oh, it was just like a fence, and it was like, " Oh, gosh." It was very busy in my head.
I love it. So from there, did your mind go right to the marathon distance?
No, I then thought, "Oh, I can run a 10K obviously, that's shorter." It's a very different kettle of fish actually, running a 10K, because you have to run a little bit faster. And then I did a couple of more half- marathons, and then I started to do a bit more fitness because it was making me feel good, so I joined a couple of little fitness groups, and they were all running Paris Marathon. And basically, I
was like, " Yeah, yeah." I was very much " Give it a go," like " What's the worst that could happen?" I didn't really overthink things too much, which probably was how I've ended up doing some of the things I'm doing. I'd rather give it a go and maybe fail, than not experience it, so I signed up for Paris Marathon, trained so hard for that, and came-
I assume you got some shoes and a sports bra, and all the things.
I wore the correct bra, and I bought some shoes. I had my gate analyzed. Yes, I did all the right things. I didn't have a watch still. Those were a bit expensive for me back then, but at least I was dressed more appropriately for the thing I was doing. And I was so hell- bent on getting four hours, aren't we all, for that first marathon. Trained so hard. And I think I came at like 407, 409, something like
that. And I was devastated when that... I was just fighting for my life for that last 10 miles, as you do in your first marathon. And when the pacer came past me, at about 17 miles, and I just couldn't keep with him. And then I can remember, I thought I was going to be one and done, because I was happy with my half-
marathon distances. It was fulfilling me enough. And then I remember crossing the line, thinking " I'm going to have to do this again, because I have to get it." Because it was close enough to think I can do it. And then just this is how it happens, and you find an excuse, don't you, for every race that
you do thereafter. And so the excuses started to build, and so I did a marathon, and then not long after that, I signed up for the Marathon des Sables, which you talked about there, which again, was more born out of... I had not accidentally found myself there, but I didn't think I would end up at that start line, and I did, and it was terrifying and life changing at the same time.
So I just want to understand that, it's not something I'm familiar with. So you're running through the Sahara Desert?
Yeah. So it's a six- day, it's called a multi- stage race, so it takes place across six days, and you are running. The course changes every year. You are plonked into the Sahara Desert, and you run each day, a different distance. And normally, it follows the same format, it's something like 20 miles, 20 miles, but technical, with some
mountains, and then a longer stage, 20, 22 miles. And then you have something called the long stage, which is an ultramarathon, and then you finish on a marathon, and then a fun run. And the hard thing is, is it's self- sufficient, so you need everything to survive for the week, you have to carry right from the start. So that is all your food, which is the heaviest thing, your
sleeping gear, and anything, any survival kit. So the first time in my life, I was like just trying to find out what an anti- venom pump was, things like this. I'm like, "What?" Just in case I get bitten by something which is going to kill me.
Oh, my goodness.
So they give you a tent. It's not really a tent, it's like a blanket on sticks, and they move that further and further away, and then you run towards it each day. And it's you're carrying... I'd say for women, I'm not very tall, I'm like five- foot three. For smaller women, it's harder, because carrying the same amount as some six- foot three dude that's done Ironman. So
it's pretty tough, it's pretty tough. And yeah, I ended up doing that, because I had a very long wait list, and I couldn't really find out too much about it. This is before the internet is what it is today. And I thought, " I know, I'll sign up to this very long wait list." I was like 198th, or something, and " I'll get some emails about it." And I signed up to the wait list, and then in three months, I was at the
top of it. I was terrified.
Wow.
fortunately, where I live, I live about 50 miles outside of London, a place called Hampshire, in UK. And by some weird geographical freak, it's very sandy, so the trails are very sandy near me. So in the summer, I could easily run on sand, because it's just where I run. I find it slightly... I don't find it any easier, but I'm just more used to it, I'm going
to say. I'm better. I'm quite good at reading where to put my foot, and then seeing... I don't think I'm more efficient, I'm just more used to it, I would say.
Yeah. And you're probably your ankles and your tendons and your ligaments around your ankles and your knees, are probably just that bit stronger, and as you say, more accustomed to it than somebody who runs on the road or track more.
Yeah.
Yeah. What a feat. I mean, most people do it once, and say " Thank you, that was enough." Susie goes back three more times.
Yeah. I loved that race.
It says a lot.
I do love it.
You do. You do.
So I think people always want to know, just like non- runners want to know what would get someone to run a half- marathon or a marathon, I think even people who run marathons want to know what is it that would drive you to take on a challenge like that?
I think you just have to be a little bit... You've got to want to. I think at any run, anybody that runs, you've got to have a desire to do it, because that is half of the battle. You've got to maybe want to see what it's like to feel like to finish a half- marathon, to finish a marathon, and that desire is going to get you a very, very long way.
I think it's always, I don't overthink these things. Which sometimes, I'll be honest with you, Rob, it hasn't worked out that well for me, because I've not really found out as much about race, and I found myself in a situation which is nearly beyond how good I am. But I think it's only running, it's not that deep. If you want to see the Sahara, what better way than to try and run around it for
a few days? And that race is actually, yes, it is very difficult, and the terrain is quite tough to get through, but the timings are such that a lot of people, they hike it, they run very small, they run periods of it, and then they walk a lot of it. And the timings are such that you can actually probably fast- walk
the whole thing and get through it. So if you just add in just a little bit of adventure, I just thought maybe I could do this. I didn't think I definitely can do this, and that was enough for me to give it a go. So if you have any sort of sense of adventure, or just trying to do something which is a little bit out of your comfort zone, just give it a go. What's the worst? You just stop and you've
only experienced some of it, it's not that deep. Yeah.
I love that. I love that. And that's so true. It's so you. I mean, I'm so lucky that I know you. I've known you for a decade at least, maybe longer, but that's so, so true, that people need to remember that. It's not that deep. And I think yes, of course, if you are a professional athlete listening to this, it is that deep for you. It is your
career, it is your whole life. But for the rest of us, as hobby runners, who do things outside of our careers and our other hats that we wear, to fulfill something else inside us, if it doesn't work out, yes.
It's okay.
It's okay.
I don't know how you do what you do, Becs. We've had this conversation off the record several times, about how you do that with that. But the time pressure, I mean I'm not the fastest. Really, I'm very much a middle- packer, and I'm very comfortable with being a middle- packer, and that affords me, and everybody else around me, the benefit of it doesn't matter if we're slower that day, it doesn't matter if we don't
get our PB. I'm not trying to do what Becs is trying to do and run that fast. And so it's nice to be able to do that, but to take that comforting space, and then put it in an environment which is actually a bit more taxing and difficult, is my sweet spot. It's just being middle- packing somewhere a little bit more adventurous and seeing how far I could get on my steam.
That makes a lot of sense. I think that's really cool. And so when we started this conversation, you talked about how early on, when you were in that first half with your brother, your life wasn't in a great place, and you had some money issues, and things like that. And so running, little did you know, I'm sure, ended up changing your
life, in terms of your career as well. Can you talk about how that all came about, and what led you to Peloton? And now you're this star instructor on the tread.
I don't know, Rob, how this happened to me. I am not joking. Sometimes I'll turn up to work, and I'll think " How have I ended up here," to be totally honest with you. But I did always, I think I managed to hit ultra- running at the right time. When I started in the UK, there were, I think, 15 ultramarathons in the whole of the UK. There's now over 200. I think I just hit something at the right
moment. Social media was relatively in its infancy. I'm not a huge on social media, but I just started to document what I was doing. There were very few women doing these sorts of events, and so I just started to document it. And I did have a couple of little rules for myself. If I've had had a bad day, or I don't know, got a parking ticket, or something, wasn't going to come to social media to start
to moan about that. That's not what I'm there for, I'm there just to talk about my running and to keep it quite a light positive space. So I just chronicled my running journey. And I had a normal job. I've worked for 20 years, in the museum and gallery sector, putting on exhibitions, so I did love that, but I was at the weekend then, doing these races, very long
races, and coming into work on Monday. And there was just a moment there, where social media was beginning to take off, I started to get brand deals and invited to things. I then got sponsorship, which wasn't a lot of money, but it was just enough for me to think maybe I could just step away from museums and see where this leads me. And I was doing race commentating, sort of commentary, I was doing a little bit of
presenting with it. So I was doing all these little things, and just trying to make everything work. And there was a point where I was very stretched, and I wasn't doing my day job very well, and I wasn't really applying myself to my races very well, so I just stopped on the day job,
which was terrifying, and took the plunge. And I was just doing bits and pieces, and then lockdown happened, which worried me, because a lot of my brand deals, and things, were governed by producing content, which we weren't allowed to do
because we were all sitting in indoors. And then I just got a phone call from Peloton, and I genuinely was like, " Oh, what?" And the first thing I said, Becs, was, " Do you know how old I am?" And they said " Yes, and
we don't care." Because I was in my mid- 40s by this point, and I just had in my head, I just thought " Really?" I'm an older woman, and actually, all Peloton cared about is authenticity and if you love it, and if you love running, you want to share your journey. And did various screen tests and interviews, and things. And here
I am, working with Becs. And last time I saw Becs was when she disappeared off the face of the Earth in London. She was like a big name on the scene, big name. Everybody's like, " Becs is so cool," and then she just disappeared, and then popped back up on Peloton. And then I was following, I don't know, maybe three years later.
I love that, that Susie always tells me that. Like literally, " Do you know you disappeared? You literally just one day, you were not in London."
I was like, "Where has she gone? She hasn't posted anything for ages." I started to get worried. Anyway.
Oh, my gosh. Okay, let's talk. Whilst we're talking about Peloton and treadmill running, you are such a fantastic advocate for all the ways people can run, whether it's road, trail, tread, and you and I are both in that mindset. I think we're very similar in, I would say, 80% of the way we run, in that we get it done. We just get it done. And we both love a tread for speed work, it's like a set it
and forget it sort of thing. But you, Susie, eighth, nearly, no, nine years ago, I guess now, in 2016, you broke the Guinness World Record by running 68.5 miles on a treadmill in 12 hours. I mean, you can hear in my voice, and I just... Tell our listeners about that. What was it like? And I love the tread, but that seems like it would be harder than anything.
It was grim. I don't know what else to say. Well, what happened was I ended up there because a friend of mine, so when I do some of the races I do, I tend to lean towards hot environments. And so my friend is actually a doctor in ultramarathon, he's a sports scientist. And so I'd go and train. He had a heat chamber set up at his university, so
I'd go and do a lot of my heat training there. And then he, as part of his research into ultramarathoners and the effects of ultramarathons on body, he wanted people to run 50 miles on a treadmill in an experiment and just record the effects of it. So not many people came forward for that, as you can imagine. I helped him out, me and a few
friends went and did our 50 miles. He was monitoring our blood, how we felt, doing blood tests and saliva tests, and all sorts of... Did that, so I went along. I was super fit, because I'd just finished an Iron Man. I was super fit, I just hopped on the treadmill, ran 50 miles and just went home. And then I just did a
little tweet about it, or something, like, " Oh, I just did 50 miles on the treadmill." And somebody said to me on Twitter, " If you'd kept going, you would've broken the world record." I was so close and I didn't know. I didn't know that these things existed. And the truth is, not many people give these a go because they are quite grim, and they are also incredibly difficult
to set up. And so we set it up, and Dennis sent a 23- page document on all the things we had to do to make it valid, which was numerous. There were lots of things about the calibration of the treadmill, it had to be public, it had to be filmed constantly, it had to have independent witnesses.
There was so many rules that we had to do, but we set about with the university, Kingston University. And I thought it wouldn't be too bad, because I wasn't that far off, just doing that 50 miles on the treadmill. And actually, I felt okay. What had happened, was it took eight months to set up, and I had lost a reasonable amount of fitness. I wasn't quite Iron Man- fit
anymore. And I hopped on on the day of it, and it had gone viral. I had thousands of people watching me.
Yeah, I remember.
You know when you start running, some days you just start running, and you think, " Oh, actually I'm not feeling this today." Yeah, it was one of those. I just hopped on, I thought, "I'm not really in the mood for this." And it was too late. We'd had so many people there watching, and I just had to run through a day of running when I didn't want to
run on a treadmill. I got very seasick, because the treadmill we had to use was huge, and it wasn't too far away from the wall. We couldn't move it away from the wall, and so I was just staring at a wall for 12 hours whilst running. And do anything, it doesn't matter what it is, just staring at a wall for 12 hours, and you will get a bit. So I was so throwing up.
Is that what you were doing? So were you staring at a wall? Did you have something, you weren't watching anything, you weren't-
Well, they kind of got a TV screen there. And then I had people coming. I had a treadmill next to me for friends and people to join me, just to kind of keep me buoyed up. But essentially, I couldn't really, because if I fell over, it was over. I couldn't touch the treadmill bars, I couldn't touch any of it, because it was done. So I had to have no sort of assistance holding it, so
I couldn't really look. I did a bit of it, but it was really rough. And I started to throw up because I was getting seasick, and then it got very hard in the last few miles. I think the YouTube video, which we had to record, is out there somewhere, of me just going greener and greener around the gills. But I broke
the world record, and it did go viral. And then it's subsequently been broken by somebody else, who she's welcome to it, because this, it was hardcore.
That's hilarious. Oh, my goodness. I can't even imagine. And obviously, back in 2016, the technology for treadmills was so much... There was so little compared to now, what we have, like our Peloton Tread Plus is so beautiful. And if I had to run on a tread for 12 hours, I would be undoubtedly on that tread. But I can't imagine just banging away on that, on the belt, just (inaudible) .
Yeah, the old school belt. I mean, Becs, we've had people on this podcast who've done a lot of amazing things, yourself included. I don't think there's anything I've heard that terrifies me more than what Susie did. And I mean, do you still think back to that and feel the trauma, Susie? Because I'm feeling it and I didn't even do it.
Yeah, a little bit. It took me a long time to get back on a treadmill after that, for a while. I was just outside at any opportunity. It was really, really tough. And I've never felt that I'm well running, and there was a lot of... I think if there wasn't so much pressure, because so many people were watching and there, I think I probably
would've just gone home. It was a little but you have to keep going because there's so many people looking at you, it was a little bit like that. But thank God they were there, because actually, I did manage to do it. And I think left to my own mental space, I probably wouldn't have done it, so there's a little bit said about the vanity of trying to look good in front of people.
Well, here we are today. I just looked it up., The current record, just for your information, is 81 miles in 12 hours.
Oh, I couldn't have done that. I was aiming for, I think we had me down to do about 76, 75, which was within my capabilities. Which wasn't really, we were on target for until the last three hours, and then all the vomit was really slowing me down.
You got past the record, and you're like, " Tap me
Oh, my goodness.
out baby, I'm done."
Yeah.
Well, Becs, Susie is back to the more conventional outdoor road running marathon distance. She's training for the Sydney Marathon coming up this fall.
Yes.
And she was telling me as we came on the interview, that she had a little bit of a registration issue, wasn't actually sure she was going to make it, but she's in.
Okay.
I hadn't fully completed my registration. There was an extra layer, which I didn't know about.
Until when, recently?
This morning, Becs.
I was going to say, hold on, I saw you a week ago in London, and you were all go.
I was getting some. Anyway, some minor detail that I've dotted the Is and crossed the Ts, thank goodness, because I've bought that plane ticket. Can you imagine?
I was going to say she's off with 19 days to spare, and we're officially in.
Yeah, I hadn't quite completed it. Anyway, I'm in. I'm very excited.
So you've already got the six- star medal, so this will be number seven for you, on the road to whatever it will be, nine perhaps. What's got you back in the marathon phase? Is it just the challenge and it's a new place, new experience, and all of that?
Yeah. I mean, this is how they get you, isn't it? The sixth star, so I thought I was done. They announced Sydney, my friends are saying " I'm going, are you going?" And I was like, " Oh, okay then," because you don't want to have the FOMO of seeing your friends get the seventh and you haven't. So I'm dreadful. I'm very easily persuaded in things like this, Rob, very, very easily.
And so a couple of my friends are going, and I was like, " Okay, I'll come too," because I couldn't bear to miss out, so I'm off. I haven't run. Last time I was in Sydney, in Australia, it was like 20 years ago, so I wasn't even a runner, so very much looking forward to it. Never been to Sydney. Slightly anxious about the course profile, which I looked at, and it's 1, 500- foot.
Yeah, there's some legit elevation in there, absolutely.
It gives New York a run for its money.
Yes, it really does. And I've run New York three times, and actually, the last time I ran New York, I really felt the hills, and they're not my strengths. But on the day, this only happens on the day, doesn't it? Race day, another world marathon major, I'm way off racing this, so I'm just going to go with my friends and have as much fun as possible, and do it justice. I'm going to do my best that I can, because it's
a world marathon major. I'm so lucky to be there, so I'll give it a crack. Not super fast, but just consistent. I'll try and be as consistent as I can on those hills.
Yeah, you've got this. And as you say, there's something about the energy of these world marathon majors, and this one being the inaugural official one, I think, is going to be really cool. You've been running through extreme heat in the UK this summer.
I love it.
Yeah, you love it. So maybe the coolness of a spring race in Sydney is going to be exhilarating for the body.
Yeah. I think for some reason, Sahara Desert runner here, I'm not thinking heat's a big issue for you, Susie.
No, it's not a big-
I love running in the heat, yeah.
Oh, my God.
I would hope so. Tell us about your book and what drove you to write the book, what can someone get from reading your book? What's the story?
So I didn't really want to write this book. The book company, Bloomsbury, they asked me a couple of times, and I said no, mainly because, I don't know, I just thought, " Well, I'm not that interesting. I haven't really done that much." And also, I felt a lot of imposter syndrome there, like " I don't know. I really don't know."
And then a couple of things happened, lockdown happened, and then so everything that we could do was taken away. And then I got into the race of my dreams, which was my final destination race. I finally got into that race. And so those two things made me think, " I'm just going to embrace them. I'm just going to embrace life as it is right now, and say yes."
So I'd already established myself in Peloton. I'd been there for about a couple of years, and I thought, "Okay, I've got a little bit of space to try and write the book." So I started to write the book. And I'm saying right at the beginning, Becs, that writing the book actually made me do a lot of reflection and realize that I've been in some extraordinary situations, and been really lucky with my running. And I had,
in fact, I've done quite a lot with it. So it's just a story of a normal woman fighting her through some very long miles, and on a bit of a journey of discovery. I'm going to say a journey from being not confident and not confident and a single mum, to just reinvention, and just finding my strength, and finding a whole community of empowerment within the runners.
It's such a great book. Obviously, I've read it, and I've actually listened to it as well. I listened to a lot of it during 7, 7, 7, where Hillary was actually listening to it when we met. It was so weird. It was on her phone, and I was like, " Wait, that's my Susie. You're listening to my Susie."
I'm so flattered. That's wild.
Those were the two of us on the plane.
Yes, yes.
Of course, with this voice, I mean-
It was an intense three days, but I was like, " I'm down for a recording. I can do this." So yes, yes. But really, it just chronicles what is that transformative period of my life, from being very unfit and unhealthy, and having no confidence at all, like terrified to speak publicly, to running on
a treadmill, talking to millions of people about running. And it really is, it's like a love story about me and running and everybody I've met along the way, and just some extraordinary, extraordinary people out there.
And it's very funny as well. You're a very funny writer.
Thank you.
Not all the way through. It's not a comedy of course, but there are some true Susie Chan moments that really make you have a good chuckle. But it is, everyone should read it, because it's such a testament to how strong you are. You've been in some, I'm not going to give away the plot lines, but you have, you've put yourself in some gnarly situations. You've had some very scary experiences.
I have, yes. And I'm very pleased, because I did actually, I refused a ghost writer. I was like, " I'm writing this all myself." And it was a slog to get that thing out, but I did it. Yeah.
So amazing. Trails and Tribulations, everyone needs to go and read it. Susie, while we're talking about scary things, I think one of the scariest things for me, is when people go into marathon races and they fall down. And as another runner, you run past, and you just, for the rest of your race, you're just thinking, " Please, goodness
above, please hope that person is okay." And this is what happened to you at the end of the Chicago Marathon, right?
Yes.
In 2017, was it?
I was about to say, you pointed the date. Yeah, was it 2017? Yes, it was. I had been feeling very just off and on, unwell for, I'm going to say a few months. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I was feeling very sluggish, very slow, sweaty, everything was a bit of a chore. And I thought, " Well,
maybe I'm just getting unfit, maybe I'm getting older." There was no obvious symptom, but the biggest symptom I had is I kept having this dreadful cough, which was just an awful cough, which would come and go. And I was put on antibiotics, it came back. And I had this terrible cough, and I was doing Chicago Marathon, which was my sixth, and then, I thought, final World Marathon major, so
it was huge. I'd qualified, I'd got in, the hotel was booked, I was over there with a few friends, we're all getting our six- star medal together. It was a moment, and I had not been feeling great coming into it. I had this cough. And I ran the marathon. I was running with one of my very good friends, Sophie, who's also doing Sydney with
me. And I said, " This cough, I feel dreadful." And I said, I remember telling her, Becs, I said this, " If I faint, don't let them take me off the course because I need this sixth star. I can't come back a year later." And I was clinging on and clinging on. I can remember my vision being a bit... She was one side of me, trying to make sure I was okay. And I finished the race.
It wasn't my finest moment. But we were being presented with our sixth star medals and being videoed, they were talking to us, and I remember thinking, and I was very British about it, because I said, " I'm so sorry, I think I'm going to faint." And then I just fainted. I collapsed and I was so English about it, " How embarrassing, I'm so sorry." And when I fainted, and then I don't really know what happened. But
the short version is Sophie was very worried. She was like, " She can run 100 miles through a desert, there's something wrong with you." Phoned a doctor, went home, had an X- ray on my lungs, because they thought there was perhaps something my lungs, and they found a huge tumor in my neck. It was quite a large tumor in my thyroid. And I had thyroid
cancer, and I didn't know. I was very lucky. I've seen and know people that have been on cancer journeys, which have been incredibly rough, challenging, and hard. And being completely honest with you, I was incredibly lucky. It was a very easy, I had a couple of operations, mild treatment, and I dealt with it, probably not in the most normal way. I did a half- marathon about two weeks after my operation. Didn't
ask my oncologist, just thought I can. Exactly, I'll just go for a run, and if I stop, I just stop. Finished, and then went on and did a very, very life- affirming Marathon des Sables with my best friends a couple of weeks after.
Wow.
Wow, wow. Glad that was a successful journey, a successful ending for you too, because obviously a scary thing, and clearly, has not held you back. So, all right, so Sydney Marathon's next. I guess, in closing, is there another big crazy thing out there that you have your eyes on?
Is it what Becs did with the Great World Race? Is there anything else out there that you look at and say, " Yeah, this needs to be my next big thing?"
Rob, it never ends. And I actually, I mean, maybe Becs is the person actually. There's one itch left to scratch, and I don't know if this will ever happened, because I have to be... I'm getting older. I want to be running until I'm a little old lady, and I need to just look after myself. And I can't run like I used to, I just throw myself into anything without much thought, and now I have
bit more considerate. But maybe I'm just going to ask Becs live on this podcast, if she would. I want to run in the Arctic, Becs. I know you've run there already, so you're like an old hat at this thing, but there is one race in the Yukon, where we just run, walk 100 miles with a little sled. I love it.
Done, in. I did Antarctica, so technically, the Arctic's different.
Oh yes, there we go. Yeah. I don't know if it'll ever happened, but you only see those people with their sledges, and they're like that. Yeah, I'd quite like to see that.
Yeah, I would love to do that for the exploring side of it too, because I ran four loops around one base in Antarctica, so I didn't really see it. So I feel like that would be, yes, see it. I think we do, we need to do a big, big ultra together.
We need to do something.
Something like, I don't know, the old-
You'd have to either get the kettle on when you get over the finish line or slow down if you want to be (inaudible) .
No, we'll do it together. It's an ultra, we'll do it together. The Hippie Trail, I'd love to be able to actually do the Hippie Trail, the original Hippie Trail, like across, but I don't think politically we can do that anymore.
I don't know. If I ever go to the Arctic, I want to be pulled by eight Huskies, you know, sled dogs. That sounds like fun. Maybe I'll pass. Maybe I'll pass, you guys. Yeah.
Yeah.
There's always something. I'm very much driven by experience over experience with people to the race rather than a distance or a time now.
It makes sense. Well, Susie, congrats on everything. Congrats on your book, Trails and Tribulations, which is out now. And good luck in Sydney, hope you have a great, great time. And the first time Sydney's a major, so you'll always have that experience to go on. And keep going on those treadmills for all those Peloton classes, but not for
86 miles. New York Road Runners is a nonprofit organization with a vision to build healthier lives and stronger communities through the transformative power of running. The support of members and donors like you helps us achieve our mission to transform the health and well- being of our communities through inclusive and accessible running experiences, empowering all to achieve their
potential. Learn more, and contribute at nyrr. org/ donate. Margaret Schwartz is a very familiar face to New York Road Runners, having run 263 NYRR races, 20 of which were New York City Marathons. But after completing her 20th consecutive marathon in 2021, she made the decision to step back from the 26.2 mile distance. And despite her streaker status, she hasn't run a full marathon since crossing that last Central Park
finish line. Instead, she's become a devoted marathon spectator, and has swapped endurance running for endurance swimming. A lifelong athlete, Margaret is both the certified yoga instructor and trainer, and she brings two decades of marathon grit and her growing love of open- water swimming to today's member moments.
Thanks, Rob. Thanks, Becs. Margaret, welcome to the Set the Pace Podcast. How's it going today?
It's going well. And I'm just really happy to be here and talk to you. But we see you from afar, so this is exciting for me.
Very kind of you. It's great to be with you. So let's get to, wow, 263 races with the New York Road Runners, you run the TCS New York City Marathon 20 times, but now you consider yourself retired from the 26.2 miles. What drove you to run year after year? How did you give yourself permission to stop the 26. 2?
Well, it's a soft provision, Meb, I'm not going to lie. It hasn't been easy. And in my own mind, I haven't missed one marathon yet. So when vacations come up and someone says, " First Sunday of November," I'm like, " Not yet." I still have to be in New York City on what I believe, maybe next to the Thanksgiving Day Parade, is one of the most happiest times in New York City. So it's my favorite day. So permission was
I just wanted to quit while I was ahead. I had a few injuries along the way. We can all cringe at plantar fasciitis. I had a labral tear at one point, and thought I'd never come back again, where a friend of mine convinced me to, or I used the Galloway method to do probably what was my 14th marathon, to keep the streak going. And then I became a streaker,
and knew I'd have guaranteed entry. And so I guess in the back of my mind, I know that I can run the marathon at any given time. And I'm turning 59 this year, and then I thought to myself, " Maybe every decade I'll just complete it, so I'll do it when I'm 60." Who knows? I don't know. Jury's out on that one.
It's a wonderful idea. I think it's great to be able to do what you have done, 20 of them, and then if you have the desire or the urge to come back every decades, we'd love to see you there. From your perspective though, how was running the first marathon different from running the 20th time?
The first one is, for me, and this is all my personal experience, no one in my family was a runner, and I wasn't a runner. And I had started working close to Central Park. And back in 2000, yay, Central Park Conservancy. The Central Park wasn't what it is today. So I would leave. Back then, there were no phones. I would leave a note with a person, saying, " I'm going to Central Park now. If I'm not back in
an hour, something has happened to me." So I mean, I feel like I'm sort of getting that experience, because we take it for granted, this beautiful place that we have to
run. And for me, as a little girl, I grew up in Queens, and I always went to watch the marathon, I guess 15 and a half at the Queensborough Bridge, and I just thought they were people doing something that I could never do. And then one year, my friend, in 1999, did it. And so I finally knew someone who ran the marathon, and I thought " I can do that." And so it's really about completing it for me, and
I thought " One and done, I'm out." And then it was, " Well, let's see if I can do it a little better the second time." And then it was "Now I qualified for Boston. Okay, I'm going to end it with Boston." And I remember talking to someone on the plane to Boston, and I said, " Well, no, this was I thought it would never happen, so I'm going to be done here." And she looked at me, and she said, " No, you're
not." I don't know what she saw in me. But the last one was also special, because it was the 50th running of the New York City Marathon, and I got to do it with my wife. So I'd like to say maybe in my last five marathons, I called them completing marathons. I didn't necessarily run them, I used the Galloway, and certainly, that last one was a run- walk coming out of COVID.
Amazing. I said, my first one I did in New York, I said, " This is my first and last, I don't think I want to do it." But somehow, someway, you've done 20 of them, you've done 26, but we're grateful for that.
Yes.
So you are also a crazy leg runner, which means you have run the Mini- 10K at least 15 times. You ran your first Mini- 10K in 2001. What is it about that race that makes you want to keep coming back?
I love that race. First and foremost, I think the new course is great. It's a little outside of the park, so you got that first mile on Central Park West. But along with that, there was a time, and I always say this to my running students, where they didn't think women could run more than a 5K, and that's the impetus of that race, to run the 10K, and that women
got together, and said, " We can do this." But the New York City Marathon, people like me get to run next to people like you, or Edna Kiplagat, or Catherine Switzer. And it's just mind blowing that we can be sort of these non- professionals doing our best. And I always say in that race, at the halfway point, the race is over. Somebody already won. It's just crazy that these women are doing it in 30 minutes. It's just
crazy. So I love that race, and so in my heart, it will always be a crazy... It will always be a Mini and one New York City half. If it's not the United, perhaps Brooklyn, but there will always be a New York Road Runners half- marathon and the crazy lights for me, as long as I can do it.
You're going to keep doing it. Just keep doing those small things, that makes a big difference. You're inspiring many.
Yeah.
But now, your endurance sport is swimming. How does swimming in open water compare to running a marathon?
They're very similar, except it takes you much longer to swim a mile than to run a mile. Whether it's me or you, it just takes longer. So I remember the first time when I thought I could swim a 5K, I had two miles under my belt easy, and I said, " What's another one?" It's a lot. And the truth is when you're running, you can start to walk. When you're
swimming, there's no walking, and usually no standing up. I swim with a safety buoy, so it's different in that respect. They're very similar though, nutrition- wise, so I can use the skills I had from running distance events and put them into swimming events. And it's much easier on my body. I know when I run a 5K, but sometimes I can forget that I swam a 5K, I just don't feel it in physical body as much.
No, the impact is definitely less on the body, but I think you're doing a great job balancing 10K, the mini, or the United Airline Half- marathon, stuff like that, to do great job. So how did participating in yoga make a difference in your running, and do you find it helps with your swimming as well?
Well, I started yoga probably in the late- 90s, when it wasn't as in vogue as it is now. And I think like many runners are terrible about post- recovery, like doing stretching. So for me, as a student, it forced me to stretch. It forced me to move my body differently. But there is similarities with it, and as a yoga instructor, and knowing more about yoga in general,
the mind- body connection is, to me, the same. So if you're in a hard posture, even if it's warrior one, it's been said that the second you want to come out of the posture is when the yoga begins. And just like when you hit mile 20, for me, that's the marathon. The final 10K is the marathon. 20, we all do that. That last 10K is more here than physically for me. I can't speak for anybody else.
I think I could relate. The last 10K is a more mental thing. But having done yoga since 1994, '95 also kind of helps you with everything, to just stretch, be in the moment, and visualization. With all your experiences as a runner, swimmer, and a coach, what's the biggest insight or piece of advice you find to yourself sharing with others?
Well, with my experience, so in my mind, I know that I'm capable in the distance. For those 20 years that I was running, I always had a base, always. And so when I stopped running the marathon, I thought I could just run 10K and just bang that out. I cannot do that. You still have to build. So I
actually had to train for a half- marathon for the first time. I was always half-marathon ready. So knowing where you are in the moment, it doesn't matter what you did six months ago or six years ago. Although mentally, that foundation is still there, I like to train, Meb, on the less is
more. Less is more. And especially as you get older, pushing those miles, and having 40, 50- mile weeks, which by the way, if you have any other life besides running, if you're not professional, you have another job. So actually, to put that time in is very time consuming and hard on the body, hard mentally. So I'd just say less is more. Have your base before you even start
training for a marathon, and then build on that. And always distance first. I mean, you know this. This isn't anything that we can't find anywhere. Speed is second. Complete, and then add your speed to it. One of my friends told me, who became a full Ironman, Kona Ironman, and was injured along the way, she said " The one reason why I had longevity was because I never pushed the speed," and I think she was right.
I agree. I think the base is important. You could always convert endurance to speed, but you can't convert speed to endurance. So as long you can do the fundamental work and progression run, and longevity is important. So as long as you're having fun, staying healthy, have a maintained lifestyle, a healthy lifestyle, great things can happen. So Margaret-
Can I ask you a question, Meb?
Sure.
Because the final marathon you did, of course I did a little history here, looked back, a little homework. You were one hour longer than you're winning New York City Marathon time. How was that for you? Because I'm one hour longer than I have ever been, and then you get to a time where it is what it is, right? It is what it is.
I was with a New Balance person yesterday, having a dinner, I said that win in Boston, or the finish equally hurt the last time I did it, last year. Same pain. But at the same time, I was ready for it. It's just the last time, I had a lot of injuries going into the race. But it equally hurts. You have to prepare for it. A marathon, you can't just
walk into it, you have to do the work. And if you do the work, we might make it look seamless or effortless, but it hurts. Whether you're in front of the pack or the middle of the pack or the back of the pack, it hurts. But at the end of the day, you could say, "Hey, I have done it." Coming across the finish line is such a gratifying moment, no matter what.
I think exactly what you just said, it hurts at 208 and it hurts at 308.
Yeah.
But yet you feel like you're running as fast as you did when you ran that 208.
The only thing, Margaret, I could say, is if you can do even pace or negative splits, it hurts a little bit more than then just going out hard. If you go 127 and come back 140, that's not pretty, that hurts.
Heartbreaking, heartbreaking. Go for the negative split always.
Negative split. Makes it easier. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, it just makes it easier that day, and also the recovery process.
Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely.
So great time to be able to talk to you as Member Moments, Margaret. Keep up the great work, and congratulations on all your accomplishments.
Thank you. Thank you, Meb. So nice to be with you here, and very inspirational. My friends are going to be very jealous, that's all I'm saying.
We had a nice conversation. Pleasure to be with you.
Yes, hopefully I'll see you at the Streaker Luncheon.
All right, sounds good.
Now it's time for today's Meb minute with HSS.
Thanks, Rob. Chrysta, welcome to Set the Pace Podcast. How's it going today?
Great. Yeah, it's going really well.
Great to have you. Many recreational runners aren't sure whether their aches are normal or a sign they need help. How do you assess runner's gait and foot mechanics to decide whether the custom insert could be beneficial, or if a well- chosen shoe is sufficient enough?
Sure. So I think there are a few things that we do in a clinical setting that actually, we recommend patients and runners can do at home, two types of assessment that they can do of their own feet and their own alignment. One is a static assessment, this means just standing and observing. I think the first really helpful thing you can do is look at where
you have calluses on your feet. Calluses is a little bit of your body's way of saying, " I wasn't quite designed for the pressure and forces you're putting on this section of my foot." So the calluses can be indicative of areas that have too much friction, or too much pressure against them, while you're running and moving. So looking
at those calluses and seeing where they're located. The second is looking at your alignment, standing in front of a mirror, or doing a footprint test, where even almost like just stepping with a wet foot on a piece of paper and seeing how much of that bottom surface of your foot is contacting the ground. And you can see online, they're really easy to find, footprint alignments that show
you a high, normal, or flat arch. Essentially, the more that that footprint is in contact with the ground, the flatter your foot. The less in contact, where it looks like it's jumping from the heel to the ball of the foot, that's a higher arch. And you're sort of trying to determine what type of arch alignment you personally have, and that's what we'll use to determine if you
need something more significant. So callusing, looking at your foot alignment, and then looking at the mobility of... Primarily, I think the biggest ones for runners are your calf, so how much ankle movement do you have, and your first toe. So your calf, you should be able to get at least 10 degrees of motion, up from 90 degrees, and you should be able to get that first toe to be at a 90 degree angle up with the
rest of your foot. And if you're not, that sort of tightness, or you have significant tightness, that's usually indicative of maybe some orthotic intervention, or a different type of shoe might be beneficial. So that's sort of the static things. And then the dynamic things are really just having people take videos, or looking at pictures of your running, and seeing what your foot and ankle alignment look like when
you're running. So if your knees are collapsing inward, your feet are rolling inward, your heels are rolling inward, that usually indicates a flatter arch, and that might be something that we'd want to do an orthotic intervention or a more substantial shoe for.
Pretty awesome information. Self- diagnose a little bit, and then go to the experts.
Yeah.
For someone dealing with recurring shin splints, or plantar fascia, what role can orthotic insert play in reducing pain or helping them get back into training?
Sure. So shin splints happen for a few reasons, one reason can be overtraining. So sometimes it's just that you're overtraining, and that might be more of a physical therapy strengthening
adjustment to your training schedule intervention. But orthotics can really help if one of the things contributing to your shin splints is that you're over pronating, so that arch is collapsing a little too much while you're running and putting a little bit of a rotational force on that shin, which is more likely to result in you developing the
shin splints. So having an arch support that puts your arch in the correct alignment and provides good support along the inside arch of your foot, can really help your muscles act in the plane that they're supposed to be functioning in, instead of having this extra rotation put on
them when you over pronate. And I always recommend for things like shin splints, that people, especially if it's their first time, or it's a milder case and they've done some physical therapy, or changes to their training, and it seemed to go away, that they really start with an off- the-
shelf orthotic insert and see if that's enough. If it's a recurring problem, then I usually recommend people go to somebody, like an orthotist or podiatrist, to see if they can get something custom- made to really more directly address their alignment if they're continually seeing the shin splints reoccur.
And how long is too long to have a problem? Sometimes you say, " Oh, it's going to get better. It's going to get better." Is it a month, is it weeks? And for me, personally, when I was at UCLA, I used to have, and when I first wake up and the first three, four steps were excruciating pain, so when is the time to go see a professionalist?
Yeah, I'd say anytime this pain is more significant, like where it's excruciating, I would say always go to see a specialist, if you're starting to see a significant amount of pain. If it's more of a soreness, and it seems to go away within, I'd say, give it a two to three- month period with intervention to see if something's
working. If after three months, you've tried off- the- shelf foot orthotics, you've tried stretching interventions, you've done some exercises to help strengthen your muscles, like you're intervening, you've changed your shoes. That's the first thing I tell people, " You have shin splints, when was the last time you bought a new pair of running sneakers?" Change your shoes.
Treat yourself.
Right. Change your shoes, because sometimes it's just that the padding and the foam has worn down, and the shoe is just not providing the same amount of cushioning and impact absorption that it used to. So I'd say more than three months, definitely go see somebody. Anything that feels significant or very poignant, like this sharp pain here, very localized, or it's consistent, it's hurting all day, then definitely
see somebody much sooner than that. I would say within the first week or two of starting to experience the pain, you want to see somebody much sooner, because you could also be misdiagnosing it. It could be something different than
shin splints, especially if it's that acute and sharp. But the dull ache, which seems to go away and come back every now and then, try interventions for, I would say, two to three months, to see if they work, and if not, then escalate to the next level.
Great job. I think it's always good to self- diagnose a little bit, when you going for a run, kind of pay attention a little bit to what the body is doing and try to stretch in the stability and exercise. And if not, then go see yourself a specialist. But yeah, when you have a little bit knee or plantar fascia, it could be the shoes, simple as that. But if not, you got to go to the experts.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, Chrysta, I said it all here. Thank you so much for taking the time to give out this wise advice to be better runners, and be able to move forward quickly and efficiently as possible.
Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure.
All right, that does it for another episode of Set The Pace. We want to thank our guests today, Susie Chan from Peloton, Margaret Schwartz, and HSS's Chrysta Irolla. If you liked the episode, make sure you give us a five- star rating, share it, leave a comment so we can hear from you. We'd love to hear from all of our great listeners out there. Hope everybody enjoyed the show.
Enjoy those miles out there. We will see you next week.