The Andre Agassi Interview | Served with Andy Roddick

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Everyone, welcome to Served. I am Andy. This is a special episode for me personally. We've had a lot of fun over the last 18 months. What was going to be a little side hustle has now become like a thing. It's been amazing. We've had great players. I have yet to sit across from someone who I consider my idol on this show. One of one, but eight-time Grand Slam champion, tennis icon, my friend.

andre agassi welcome to served well what's up so good to be here dude i mean let me just start off by saying like props to your contribution to the sport through this format because you are not only like like thoughtful You're insightful, and you're fair. And your takes are, I really enjoy it. I mean, the sport's better off for it. I'll tell you this.

I think my favorite thing, and I've told producer Mike this before, is doing a show and then getting like feedback loops from people I really respect where it's like, you know, we will talk about Zvera's forehand and you'll have this take and I'll have this take and we just start trading barbs.

That I think is like the most fun for me for this entire show is basically it's a reason for feedback and to kind of engage and get in the weeds on stuff. So we're so pumped to have you. Thanks for carving this out. I know you're going to.

over to paris in a couple of days we're in south carolina because um you're doing everything like i'm reading about like agassiz sports entertainment your partnerships with julio with lifetime you're the labor cup captain And then after, you know, almost two decades of everyone wanting you to go weigh in on tennis in a formal capacity, you're going to fly over to Paris and start and do the last four days for TNT.

It seems like we weren't getting hardly any of you for a long time. And there was this kind of void in our sport. And now we're getting a lot of much. And no, your words, not mine. What changed? I don't want to ask, why are you back? Why are we lucky to have you back? Fair enough. Thank you for the way you phrased that too. I mean, those are kind words. I can't say I look at my life in sort of decades because I'm really not the kind of person who maps out anything.

I sort of follow the ripples and it was really important to me to stay true to something I promised Steph when we first met, which is like after she really kind of knew me, it was like, I'm not going to be too busy. I'm not going to be too bored. because I'm really dangerous in both scenarios. And I think when the kids sort of, you know, that empty nest thing, and all of a sudden that chapter, you kind of move into a different season in life, I sort of had this bandwidth.

Wasn't quite sure what to do with it. Wasn't stressed about it at all. I found interesting ways to engage. I've always wanted to stay engaged with the sport. I've done stuff for people who have been good to the sport.

title sponsors are different things. And I've always tried to be good behind the scenes to the game, but now it's like, I kind of have more bandwidth and, and that's the problem sort of when you commit to something that you can't control the workload because like you do a little bit and then you're.

You're in the front of somebody's mind, and then you end up doing something else, and it's just continued. Work begets work. But I mean, it can't be a surprise to you that you just, I mean, you've been so successful. I'd say a lot of us hackers don't have the ability to like. choose when to come and go. You've been such an important figure to this game for for so long.

you know, one of its main crossover stars, you can't be surprised that when you decide to come back that there's work that follows. Well, I don't, I don't see it in context. I think that's where I probably get a little too much credit from. Maybe you are outsiders in the game. I don't have a perspective of myself in context with the game. I try to be as authentic as possible. You can do math.

Well, in shit times, right? At least it was authentic. So that's how I engage. It's so real time that I'm starting to realize the implications. And I'm getting the data now of what choices mean in a whole new arena. But I'm comfortable as long as everything's in balance, generally speaking. And, you know, it really is. How do you feel about going over and working at the French Open?

That's a tough question for a guy like me. I mean, I think if there's something- Okay, so that's a better question. What are you excited about and what are your stressors? Well, I didn't mean to judge it as better or worse or not a good or bad, but what's tough for me is like- I have my own process when I care about something and I do care about contributing if I choose to do something. And so my stresses are quite honestly doing it, you know, doing it.

adding right contributing not not not be not not distracting or not sort of lowering the bar of any kind so i want to do it well and i have my own tortured process in doing it it's not it's not unfamiliar with how i played the game

So am I looking forward to going? And I'm never looking forward to my skin being stretched. There's something I begrudge it, you know, like, oh, God, here we go. It's going to hurt. I'm going to stretch my skin. But then I settled in, and then I'm usually glad I did it. It's funny because we've been trading some texts about it or we'll be watching something and we'll start trading. And I can assure you whatever stresses you have about doing it, nobody else has for you.

ask a good question, put you in front of a microphone. It's never been an issue for you, at least not to us. Yeah, well. Here it is all of a sudden. I can't even find a word. You say that. It's a whole different thing when you're around your peers and you're around the game in such a real way and it's meant such a significant part of your life.

and you've had sort of this conflicting relationship with the sport, and you've accomplished a lot, and you've failed a lot, and then you've accomplished a lot, and then you're... and then you're gone, and then you do something in a whole different arena, and then you come back to it. I mean, I could let you inside my head on that level, but it does kind of stress me out. I mean, you called me like your idol, man. I'm sitting across from you. I was like, so cool.

We compete against each other. We, you know, we live the same hamster wheel of life of sorts. And now we get to sit here and bullshit about it. It's like, I mean, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty honored to be here. That's nice of you. One tournament that I'm, and obviously it's the time of the year and you're going over to cover it, but one tournament that I kind of want to dive into on a little bit of a deeper level is your run at Roland Garros in 99.

Right. And I felt like it was, you automatically went like, anything you want to share before you get into it? I know just that I should have lost that tournament four times, but. Yeah. So, but it was, it was an interesting kind of inflection point in your career.

You might say you come back from playing Challengers. 98 was fine, but not by your standards fine, right? And then... you know 99 i talked to bg he said you hadn't played tennis in like seven or eight days going in you hit the ground before uh you mentioned uh you lost like three or four times you were down you know

A set in something to Squilari. Six, four, four, one. And then two points away against Clement. Two sets to one down, four, five, love, 30. It's a winner. And they called it out by getting an overrule. That would have been triple match point. He ends up cramping in a 12-deuce game the next game, and I beat him 6-0 in the fifth. Moya. 6-4-4-1, two breaks. Yep, and then you get her body, who you'd lost to in Miami, you know, two months before.

And then the final, I mean, but let's, let's, let's level set the historical context of, of this tournament. Any grand slam for any player is the most important thing you're doing up to that point, right? It's just, they all take on kind of their own thing. Looking back, you can say.

You can, we can be objective. I wasn't ready for that one. I was ready for this one. This is what happened there, but I wasn't actually able to be super objective going in. I was in the business of lying to myself. I'm ready. I can do this. I can win this. Yeah. Whatever it, uh,

might be but that one specifically it was for the career grand slam for the career golden grand slam you hadn't been in a semi in a major since 96 i think at the us open there was something that needed to happen to kind of rejuvenate your career on the level that you knew right yeah no question so um yeah 97 i went from which the year before, don't underestimate how tough this was. You say it was average and it was from a Grand Slam performance perspective.

But I went from 141 in the world to number six. It was a joke. I mean, but that wasn't because I was doing well in big tournaments. That's because I made up my mind. that I need to climb back from one of the lowest points in my life. And I just went after it with full intensity week after week after week, you know, small tournament, big tournament. It didn't matter. I lost round of 16 pretty much in every slam, if not earlier.

And then I start 99 and it's like you have those. Now your questions go at 141 in the world. Your questions are, can I really even do this anymore? Then you get to number six in the world and then you're confronted with. Well, I can, but I haven't been here in years. So now I had this whole nother level of intensity and pressure to deal with. And I was, and I kind of failed miserably at it. Right. Like, like I went into the 99 Australian open and. And had a real curve thrown at me with my like.

first wife at the time, but we can skip over that if we want. And it was like, I just, I tapped out mentally and again, had an early loss. And I got a shoulder injury. I went to the clay season, not having a good hard court season, lost first round to keep his game. So for me and the way my game was, maybe a bit like you, I don't know, but like I felt like if I don't do well in the hard court season, it really had a monstrous effect on.

on on my whole year because i did not expect to do well on clay so i went over to europe for the clay it wasn't fantastic had a shoulder injury didn't even think i was going to play paris It was the last of the four Grand Slams for me to win. It was one I should have. Well, when I say should have, it's been represented that I should have. I was favored twice in the finals almost a decade earlier. 90 and 91. Yeah. So it's like.

I was out there going, I'll never have a chance to win this thing. Anyhow, why even play it? And my coach at the time, who was yours for a while, Brad, I'll never forget his comment to me. He goes, dude, he goes like, how can you win the French if you don't play? That was, that's how he said it. Like big concepts, just dubbing adaptive where it's like, Oh yeah. Yeah. So I was like, so I really was looking at 99 French open as a way for me to.

Grind out some sets, maybe grind out some matches, but be ready for the rest of the year where maybe I could do something. So that was a context I went in there with. Talk about that because I did make it. too easy i'm like every like everything i hate about media but 141 flipping your own score cards the infamous challenger in vegas that we all remember where you're you know flipping your own naomi referenced it a month ago because she was kind of doing the same thing uh definitely a point

for inspiration, for like, it's possible. Andre ate some humble pie. I can do this too, right? And I say that in the most flattering way. but then 141 to six. Now it's important to kind of point out how we have to reframe things in our mind continuously as tennis players. If you're sitting at 141 and someone tells you you're going to be six,

I don't know the number, 14, 15 months later, whatever it might be, you're going, great, done. That's the best. And then you get there and it's like, there's more. There's always... this kind of fight of more. And you, you like, once you're six, you almost forget about the one 41, right? Like you're just kind of only as good as your last result. Yeah. Like, but it's, people don't see, they see the numbers and they know the talent. They know what they've seen from you before.

So in a way, we don't give enough credit in real time, right? It's true. I mean, I always kind of look at it like we as tennis players are a car uphill with no brakes, like in our own minds, right? And sometimes we forget that. that you know you can't you know you can give yourself a little bit of a break if it's if if you design it into your overall methodology or your overall game plan but if you don't do that

you end up getting sucked in that vortex of like torture perfectionism because you're always fighting a ghost. You're fighting something better than you are right now. And that's what I was, that's, if somebody told me at 141. I was going to get to number six. Sign me up. I'm happy. You would have said I'm happy forever. And then it comes and it's not the case. No, it's never the case. But that's the shit part for me with tennis.

It was always that. It was like winning and then having to prove it again next week. But the flip side is losing and then getting a chance, right? the next week so it's like anything in life it's perspective yeah and unfortunately we usually don't have it because we're so damn young too right i mean it's another thing to consider yeah so you find you find your way to that final

And you're playing, and this is a way to show kind of the human side of you that I think people hear about and know. I certainly experienced it. I have firsthand stories that I'll tell later, but. you end up playing a guy named andre medvedev who was a really good player won monte carlo i think when he was really young was four in the world was kind of the guy that people were pointing to as like that next guy and then he just kind of he was really good but maybe not great right and

You had had a conversation with him at the beginning, like 14 days, practice week of the French Open. Monte Carlo week, actually. Oh, it was before the French Open. Walk us through what happened and then like how.

you know, tennis does its magic. And then all of a sudden you guys are battling for, you know, an important title. So, uh, I don't know what the rules are now with tennis, but back then, if you're going to pull out of an event for medical reasons or whatever, you know, to avoid fines and penalties with rankings, you got to kind of see the doctor on. I was going over there, honestly, to pulling out of Monte Carlo just because I wasn't playing it.

Andre Medvedev was playing Monte Carlo and lost. And so we both looked at that night the same way. I'm in Monte Carlo. I have nothing else to do. I'm going out. He's in Monte Carlo. He has lost. He has nothing else to do. He's going out. So we were out at this, like, it was kind of like a... dinner that transforms into a nightclub kind of place. And we're already deep into the nightclub side of things, just sitting there. I'm just basically waiting for my flight the next day.

He sits down. I was like, oh, dude, what are you doing? Are you playing here? He goes, yeah, he lost today. He goes, I lost today. And I'm like, you know, bad luck. And he goes, it's not bad luck. I just suck. You know, and I'm like. What are you talking about? So he starts walking me through his head, right, where he's at. He's going to quit tennis. And I'm like, dude, you can't do that. I mean, he goes, why not? I said, well, first of all.

You can't quit because changing that scenery is not going to change you quitting on yourself. So that ain't happening. So just get that out of your head. You got to ask yourself, what's it take to make you better?

And the first question I have for you is like, why do you think you suck when you can do this, this, this, this, and this? Like, what's going on, you know? And so I kind of became weird for this like stretch of... an hour I became like this coach to him you know just personal coach like dude get your head out of your ass and use the strengths of your game and the only weakness you have you can get around multiple ways and

And he was like, I mean, he hugged me afterwards and just said, thank you. And sure enough, here comes 99 French Open and a draw. And we were always playing on opposite days. So he would see me and he'd come over and be like.

Man, go get him today. And I'm like, yeah, well done yesterday. And then I'd see him the next day and I'm like, you know, it's your turn. Get out there. At what point does that start getting real for you too? Oh, shit. That got real, real like quarterfinals. Like I'm going, I look at him, I'm thinking to myself.

You looked a lot nicer to me like a week ago. I didn't think it would actually work. No, I know. And he just starts laying wood to everybody. And semifinals, here we are. It's like a collision course. And it's like poetic. Like, I mean, how the irony of it that I'm playing my greatest opponent ever, Andre, like my mind, I'm thinking myself, right? I'm playing my, I literally coached this guy how to not only beat.

the people he was bitching about but how to beat me right and it's like and here we are playing my biggest match ever against each other it was just yeah it was a little too much to emotionally kind of process i was I'm not only nervous, I was kind of scared out of my mind, to be quite honest. And you get down. The only cloud in Paris that day finds you for, I don't know, 40 minutes, something like that. Brad yells at you a little bit.

Gil gives you a pat on the back and you go out, find your game, lose the second set, come back from two sets to love in a grand slam final. It was worse than that. The first two sets were gone in 47 minutes. I mean, you don't know what it's like.

to lose in 47 minutes because you can hold serve, right? Like when you lose your way as a guy that played like the way I played. I've lost to you three and one before. Like that was about four. That was about 56 minutes. So if I can't relate to 47, I can relate to 56. That was San Jose. Do you know I actually aced you four times in a row?

it's the only time i've ever done it no you've told me oh okay sorry just uh so what was what would help we were just talking about just walk us through yeah basically coming back 47 so this was my point There's one thing to be in a grand sum final and lose, and I've done that plenty of times. The first three I ever played, I did that. Lost many more. And it's a feeling of heartbreak. I'm not sure if I'd rather lose in the finals or lose.

first round because then at least I can turn my mind towards like I can use this time back to that tortured perfectionist kind of tennis player mentality. You lose in the finals, it's just like. Like you're leaving a loser. Like that's how, that's how he's like, I won six, lost one and somehow like the heartbreak. Right. So I go out in that tennis court and it was like 47 minutes, two sets down.

And it was so bad, I actually looked at the crowd and absorbed it and just said to myself, you can't do this to them. I mean, you've got to give them a match somehow, some way. My feeling was one of empathy for... the people watching this train wreck, right? I mean, this natural disaster take place in front of them.

Absolute carnage, right? I'm dragging people to my funeral, for God's sake. And it's like, and then the rains came. And when that rain cloud came, I didn't, I thought it was just delaying the... The beat down is just, but at least the clock might move and at least in historical scorecard, it's going to say the match lasted an hour and 40 minutes now. Right. But we get into the locker room and as you know, and anytime you want to feel free to interrupt me on this, but.

You know what it's like when you got 128 guys in the draw, doubles, mixed, right? And you got just a guy's locker room. Yeah. And then it's like deathly silent and there's two people and it's a rain delay. and like you know you can hear the other one breathe in there and brad comes in and he just i mean he just lost his mind which isn't his he doesn't he's not a yellow no he's not a screamer like that's for the

listeners who wonder, I mean, they've seen our episodes, but he doesn't like never screamed at me. And I'm sure I give him many, many reasons too. Not a yellow. No, not a yellow at all. I mean, but I was, I didn't even, I couldn't eat that more. I was so nervous. My feet were, I was a deer in headlights, right? So he had to slap me out of it. And he's, and I just looked at him and I was like, what? I mean, this guy's like, he's like too good. And he goes.

How the F would you know if this guy's too good? You're not even moving. You're not even hitting the ball. Here's an idea. If he hits the ball over there, why don't you run? He starts giving me like this. He goes, no. You can picture him doing this. It's a good start to be fair. Yeah, but this was after he slammed the locker. Yeah. I mean, that's so dramatic. I can't even imagine Brad doing that. Yeah.

Yeah, he'd lost his mind. Then he said to me, and by the way, if you're so confused on where to hit the ball, you know, wherever he is, hit it the other direction, right? He's just like, but for God's sake, how can you tell me this guy's too good? If you're not even doing anything, I just like, let's go down swinging. We've been here for, you know, almost 20 days and you've been laying it on the line. You've been leaving your heart out there. I mean, he gave me one of the talks that just.

And then I was still convinced heading back on the court, I was just now going to lose different. I was just going to lose on my terms and just start scorching the ball. But in any case, it was probably the only time in my life where I was so disconnected emotionally and mentally from what was... from where I wanted to be on the court that I found myself like gathering my senses, sort of digging in and then getting over the hump and then playing in what.

Athletes kind of call the zone right like I've never I've gone out there in the zone. I've lost the zone I've never gone from like Mars to like the zone like and it happened in the one in the biggest match of my career. How much of that match, the deer in headlights, and I know we're making it about Medvedev for this conversation as it should be.

How much of that was from, and you mentioned it a little bit before, you go in your first Grand Slam in 90 and you're playing Gomez. You're the favorite and it doesn't go your way. The next year against Jim, it doesn't go your way. You go in in 99. It's a tournament at that point where your game had kind of shifted to where you were probably better on other surfaces, right? Whereas early in your career, maybe that was your better surface. Was there a sense of this is it? I have to do it.

Now I had the curse of knowing too much at that age. Right. And being at the end of myself in 97, where I was sitting in my living room. you know, self-inflicting harm and just going from 1 to 141. So I had the luxury or the curse of just knowing too much. I knew I'd never have another chance at this. I knew I probably didn't even deserve this chance at this.

That was the real fight inside of me is how do you get – I think that's why nerves come in in any sport. You see golfers as they get older, something happens to their – They know what saving a five-foot par putt means, even though it's the middle of the third round, right? It's like they know it. They've just lived it too many times. I knew what this opportunity was.

I knew how important it was that I don't waste it. But at the same time, you're handing me like a suicide pill. Right. And I could just I could just take it and go home. I guess how I felt is like I was petrified and I was. I was just dying in front of everybody. So it was a hard deal. I kind of wish I was young and naive and just letting it fly. But I lost to Gomez, where I was favored in the finals of France.

I then went to the U.S. Open in 1990, lost to Pete, where I was big-time favorite. He was like, who's this guy? Seated 12. Yeah. Then I went back to the French against Courier. So that feeling is an intense one. I even told Jim in 93 when he beat me in the semis, or yeah, 93, beat me in the semis, and then he beat Court in the finals. That was 92. 92, 92. I told him in 92.

After you beat Corda, he came in the locker room at Wimbledon and, you know, respectfully went over to congratulate him. But I added this little bit, which is like respect for just being favored and just going out there and just like taking care of business. Like I'm. I admired that because it was so not who I was. And it was, he was so able just to go to work, you know, and I was so unable to do that. It's interesting because that leads me into kind of another conversation.

I'm going to move order here, but 88, make a couple semifinals of the only two Grand Slams you played. You didn't play Australia because apparently you didn't like the conditions down there. I only missed 10 of them. You'd have ripped off four out of five, but yeah, just life advice. Maybe you should have played those.

So, I mean, it's just more, I'm not that insecure. I'm not like my wife, for God's sake, who is so insecure multiple times. So insecure, not just beautifully humble. Three in the world. You've become. World famous, right? You've basically taken the sport that Mac and Connors have, you know, kind of lifted into the mainstream, but then even taken it a step further. There's every ad campaign that comes.

you're more famous than people who have won a lot more at that point. And then I've always wondered, and especially as we, you know, Americans were playing against Americans, but then like a story that doesn't get talked about ever now, and it did at the time. You know, history is easy when it works out for everyone. Chang comes in and wins out of nowhere in 89 when he's 17. You know, and then we mentioned Pete in 1990 over you comes out of nowhere wins.

Then Jim beats you in a final in 91. And then all of a sudden we're sitting here in 92 and these three guys have won and you haven't yet. And you were kind of the first one that was actually burdened with the expectations to kind of continue on.

with uh you know mac and and connors and that whole that whole deal is that something that that you thought about was it important to you did it matter that they were americans did you care about other people's expectations were you aware what was the fame versus not winning dynamic like what was that whole kind of four years yeah that's that's a lot right there let me start with this it's like

It's like the Peloton, right? You got four guys, right? You have to work together. You have to help each other believe they can win also too, right? Like I helped them believe that we can do it. I turned pro first and I was actually succeeding, you know. really succeeding on some level, you know, that made them believe, well, well then I can do it. Right. And then like chain comes in and says, well, I can win a slam, you know, wins it.

And then Pete's like, well, I can do that too. Then Jim's like, well, I can not only win a slam, I can be number one. And meanwhile, yeah, I definitely went from leading. to, you know, second place in the, in the Peloton to like third to like fourth and then just fighting to keep drafts. Right. I'm just like, just trying to not let everybody run away. But I was coming off a generation where Americans didn't.

They didn't really, I mean, besides maybe Vetus and Mac, but Vetus is never competing for number one in the world. Connors and Mac never really got along, right? And then, you know, like me, Pete, Currier, Chang, I don't think there's anything. more classic than watching us on the same Davis Cup team. The dinner room becomes like a Fellini movie. It's crazy. Everybody sort of has their own.

thing and it's so individual and it's so like we're trying to be a team pretending like we're a team but we just really want to be better than you because if we're better than you then that means i'm number one and then you throw mac in the mix who was still a factor right it was just it was it was crazy but

That's why I envied your generation so much, right? I mean, like I looked at you and Marty and John and Eisner and, you know, the Bryans and others that you guys like, you guys were like, you're like the Aussies or like the French or like, you know, you guys actually. went out and sat in the other one's box and supported him during the match. It was like, you guys were like, I never experienced that. Me, Pete, Jim, Chang, we're fighting to be number one in the world at the other one's demise.

So you always felt that edge. And so what did it do to me in real time as they started achieving way more than me? It made me feel worse about myself, quite frankly. And that that that heat.

And that pressure was twofolds, right? It was burdensome, but it was also a sneaky accelerant. It was a sneaky, like, because, you know, I've always sort of have... fought tennis like an underdog it's the way i was raised you know it was circumstances i had to go against and and they just they just raised the stakes and you know in some strange way i used it

You were obviously always going to win your first major at Wimbledon. That was a given, yeah. But walk us through, like, there's so many parts of your stories that are, of your story that just... don't make a lot of sense, right? And then you start putting in the human element and you start layering over, you know, certain factors in life and then it kind of makes sense at some point, but you got to kind of dig a little bit. Like you played in 87, you didn't play Wimbledon.

for four years during this whole upswing of, of, of fame and success and the whole, you know, Jean Short, Moulet, the whole, the whole, the whole deal, you didn't play women again until 91, took four years off.

Then you come out and win in 92. Like how does your brain click to where you're obviously not playing it because you think you're, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but obviously they make me wear stuff I don't want to wear. And I'm a baseliner. Like all these guys are hitting bombs and coming in.

And correct me where I'm wrong, but then when do you feel like, oh, you know what? Not only should I play it, I think I can win it. Like that's a fucking lifetime of mental gymnastics for most. And it seems like you're able to like. once you can get it in your grasp, then you feel like you can actually wrestle with it, right? Yeah. What is that process? I've been known to be the person that paints myself in the corner in order to, you know, find a way out. I mean, um, let's, let's.

Let's get to the heart of it, right? I mean, because you're saying, how do you make sense of it? I never chose tennis, right? From day one, from day one, right? News alert. most controversial thing in my book came on page one, and I hated tennis. All right, now that's not... does the i'm not making that up like i saw what it did to my family i saw what it did to relationships i i it just it always meant too much i always resented it right it didn't mean

that I wasn't good at it, but you can be motivated through two things in your life, fear or love. And it was fear that was driving me, right? It was fear of my father. The last youngest of four children. It was just fight gets sent away from home. Nick voluntary tennis Academy. It was like, and it's like Lord of the flies with four hands and backhands. I mean, teenagers raising each other, no adult supervision. This place is a.

hell, I want to burn it down. I mean, like rebellion kicked in at the age of 13, told my dad to piss off basically by then too. Right. Like, I mean, when I tell you I'm living a real life rebellion, And my anger is directed at tennis, misdirected, but nevertheless directed at tennis. I mean, rage is an interesting thing, you know, and I chose to use my intuitiveness and my resentment of tennis and that rage.

is something that I knew I didn't want to ever use to hurt people. So I had to direct it somewhere. So I directed it at the easiest thing in front of me, the thing that was responsible for the misery of my whole life at the time. which I concluded was tennis. And so getting out of the academy was about survival. It was about if I, here's how I can get out, win, you know, win, like just, okay, now I'm pro and now I'm out in this man's world.

with this teenage rebellion. And then everybody's telling me, sticking microphones in my face, asking me who I am, asking me to make sense of why I'm wearing jean shorts. Well, I'm wearing jean shorts because it's a big fuck you to the whole world. It's like, that's how I felt at the time. It's a reality, right? And it's like... So there was this push-pull that was always going on in my decision-making. I didn't play Wimbledon because I felt like I was playing in a giant dollhouse.

Bambi on ice. It's like grass. I mean, you could tell me to smoke this stuff and I understand it, but to play on it? I mean, like... How do you play on this surface you can't even stand on? I didn't even get to practice it. They treat you like a stranger in your own club. I mean, it's like in your own tournament. It's like you're not seated. You can't go over there, right? And you can't practice at Wimbledon because I'm 16 years old going, you know.

anti-establishment, anti-everybody. It's like, and I'm in a man's world trying to pay bills, right? So it's like traveling the world with my brother, just being begrudged in the locker room. At least that's my perception, but nevertheless. I start to then not go to the locker room, which makes them think I'm begrudging my peers. And then it's just everything was just compounding, compounding. So my whole life has been about I didn't play. I didn't play Australia.

Because I wanted something normal. And that's called Christmas. And that's called New Year's. I mean, that's how simple it was. That's as simple as you just, that was it. Oh, as little as I could play and get away with it. I was, I was thrilled. It's amazing to me though. And then we'll, we'll get back on topic. Cause I think that 90, I like, I remember it's so funny. Cause like your matches.

I remember where I was for them, like the biggest ones. Like I remember I was at 92 Wimbledon Funnels at Jeff Lau's house and we were playing ping pong. And then we were like, and we, we sat there as, you know, nine-year-olds at the time and, and, and, and kind of.

Dialed it in and then he misses the volley and you go down. It's like I think even at that point I understood like The weight of expectation and pressure and the release valve and accomplishment and the whole thing I get asked about your quote a lot about the, I hate tennis. You know, what does he, and I'm going, yeah, I mean, it's, it's his truth. It's his reality. But I also know that he spent a lifetime.

perfecting a craft, appreciating the wins of tennis, appreciating tennis as a teacher. So has it changed in your mind from, obviously when you're 16, you're playing against something I used to not want to lose because my parents would be mad at me. like that changes when you're 25, right? Like that's a very different scenario. Like how did your relationship change as you got older and maybe accomplish some goals to where there wasn't that thing that you had to do?

anymore well like i hear you talk about i'm like this person loves the game well yeah so it's not a when did i go from love hate to hate love and i think that happened i think that happened probably in the fall of 1997 i was at my lowest point i've fallen from number one in the world um i was doing crystal meth all right i mean let's talk real terms here for god's sake right like like

I'm doing one of the most addictive drugs, recreational drugs, that exists. I'm trying to harm myself. I mean, like, I hated my life. I hated it because... I didn't know who I was. I didn't choose it. Was there a contradiction in the good that came with it? Yeah, when I bought... a house for my parents and I bought another house for so-and-so and I got, you know, you have these contradictions that I had to reconcile but I couldn't reconcile it.

Until I went full circle, you know, and full circle meant getting to the end of myself. It meant staring across that abyss. It meant, it meant feeling so useless that a gust of wind will blow you off the edge. You know, it's like. Like you want to talk about Rio is going to Stuttgart, getting a wild card because I'm 141 in the world because I can still sell tickets, but I can't hit a damn tennis ball and I'm overweight. You know, it's like I lose first round. Brad always.

Brad to simplify things, you know, it's like in the hotel room, locks the door and says, you know, dude, like I care about you too much. And like, you got to quit. Or we got to start over. I mean, and I never hated tennis more than that moment, if you can believe it. Because it's like if Brad lost hope in me.

I mean, Brad, right? I'm down two sets of love at the French, and he's going, what's the matter with you? Don't tell you you got him right where you want him. You might just believe him. Yeah, no question about it. And here he was just going.

I'm like, I'm going to walk. And I think you might need to walk too. And I just never remember. And then I remember looking out. It was like the epiphany. And mind you, and you're way too smart for this, so I'll say it up front. Epiphanies don't change your life. But what you do with them can. And that moment I had an epiphany. It was an epiphany was just because I didn't choose my life doesn't mean I can't take ownership of it.

Just because I didn't choose my life doesn't mean I can't choose to choose it, right? Like it was this abstract intangibles, like hope is fragile and hard to kill, you know? Like I'm sitting there with no more hope. But there's a glimmer, right? There's a glimmer. If I feel like a piece of shit, well, isn't that a good growing ground for a seed? Maybe something can grow out of this. It's like hope is hard to kill.

I held on to that epiphany and I held on to it. And I spent the next couple months trying to figure out what my reason was going to be to use, obviously, a gift that I had and a life that, in a lot of ways... gave me so much but but in a lot of ways it took so much right like my childhood and like right so again perspective and I saw the show on 60 minutes it was a kit program knowledge is power program it's a charter school operator and I watched

These two guys, Dave Levin, Michael Feinberg, and they were educating these children in the most economically challenged areas, and they were empowering them and changing the trajectory of their lives. And I remember watching those kids. And I saw myself, you know, like, oh man, I saw myself. I said, you know, maybe that is my reason right there. Like those kids don't have the luxury about bitching about being number one in the world. Right. It's like, like.

That's when I committed to like building my own charter school. I took out a $40 million mortgage, a $40 million mortgage. Ambien is no match. for a 40 million dollar mortgage and i built my own charter school when i was 141 in the world because you know what i'm gonna then you had to do it i'm gonna use tennis like it's used me right I had to. I didn't have a choice, but I had my reason. I had my reason. My reason was something that I was connected to, but was much larger than me.

And that's why I would have always been a better team player if I was a team sport player, if I had any athletic ability. You know, it's like. I was connected to my team. And it was like I was on a court and all of a sudden it looked different. People are saying I'm playing the challenger, flipping my own scorecard. I don't know how Naomi sees that. I can tell you how I see it. Like people said.

Like, he's humble. No, no, no. That's not humble. Humble is smoking meth in your living room. That's what humble is. Being out here having your reason for what you're doing, that's called grace. I mean, that's just called a gift. And I had that the rest of my career. So when did that epiphany, when did that change go from, you know, love, hate to hate love? I would say it went that fall of 1997.

I'm Claire Parker. And I'm Ashley Hamilton. And this week we're discussing Hilaria Baldwin. Why does she have so many kids? She will not answer that question for you in a way that you want it answered, but she will respond to every single thing ever written about her in a tabloid. She's taking on the tough questions like, does ADD make you speak with a Spanish accent? Does an older man guarantee happiness in a marriage?

We talked to Eliza McClam and Julia Hava from Bingetopia podcast. They are Hilaria Baldwin experts, and they dove deep with us on Hilaria's latest memoir, Manual Not Included. You can listen to new episodes of Celebrity Memoir Book Club every... Tuesday on Amazon Music. This week on Prof G Markets, we speak with Aswath Damodaran, Professor of Finance at NYU's Stern School of Business. He shares his take...

on the recent tariff turmoil and what he's watching as we head into second quarter earnings. This is going to be a contest between market resilience and economic resilience as to whether, in fact, the markets are overestimating the resilience of the economy. And that's what the actual numbers are going to deliver is maybe the economy and markets are a lot more resilient than we gave them credit for.

In which case, we'll come out of this year just like we came out of 2020 and 2022 with much less damage than we thought would be created. You can find that conversation exclusively on the Prof G Markets feed. So we met in 2000. Okay. And so at that point you'd had, you know, 97 has happened. You've had this run of Roland Garros and the U S open and all this other stuff.

I kind of found myself in, you know, the next lane of a swimming meet sometimes where I could draft sometimes. And you would use me if you needed a body to play an exo somewhere. And I got to fly with you and I got to see how you operated and I got to. you know, see the way that you lived and see the way that you process the game, see the way that your mind worked about the game. And so from where I sat, I only saw the part where you had.

gone through all of this this this torment but that was i was 17 also so what i'm seeing is basically my reality at that point right there's no retrospective when you're 17. so ever since i've known you it's it's like this obsession which which presents outwardly as as as love for the game so i don't know the back i haven't lived your reality i'm just saying from where i sit and when we had a personal relationship and when i was close to you

I would see you, we would go play Birmingham. Yeah. And I would see the way that you would interact with the 12,000 people there and treat them as if this wasn't the 478th one night exhibition that you had done in the last 10 years. Right. And so that was love to me. And it was going, going into whoever the sponsor, it's a local car dealership. And I'm making these parts up, but the sentiment is truth.

We go in and it's a local car dealership and I'm seeing you off the phone when your foundation talk at handling life around. We get to the venue. And it's simple things like you asking someone, hey, sponsor, I know, remind me of his first name. And also, I know the last name because it's on the dealership, but what's his wife's first name also? And you walk in and it's a group full of people who...

don't see live tennis all the time they're not they know you they don't know me and we walk in and it's you know tommy and buffy thank you for your hospitality and the room melts and that's love and so anything that i've seen of you with my own eyeballs has come across as love with this game without the baggage. So I don't say that for a response for you. I say that it's admirable that you've taken this thing that caused you pain and caused you torment and caused you family issues.

And without you knowing it, as a 17-year-old coming up, it presents as complete and total love. I accept that. And so that's where, when I hear it and people ask me about it, I'm completely confused by it. Not to say that's not your reality. Not to say, I like, I know your history backwards, right? I've read about it. I've, you did me the favor.

Uh, one of the coolest things, and I think I've told you about it before, but when your book was going to come out, obviously, by the way, it's my favorite book I've ever read because I feel like there's two things that great former athletes do. They either write a greatest hits album or they throw everyone else under the bus. you put a magnifying glass on the things that weren't your greatest hits while throwing yourself under the bus. So it was raw. It was authentic.

You had been retired for a couple of years at the time. I think it came out in 08, right? 9. Maybe I've read it. 09. But I remember Brooke and I were early on in the first year of our relationship. i remember you called me and said hey i'm sending you this book don't give it to anyone don't let anyone read it i'm not sending this to you so that i can coach you on a response i'm sending it to you so that if you have any questions feel free to ask me there's a lot of shit in there

And I remember I read it. I didn't, I think you understood the product. Like if this book comes out and then I get asked about it in a press conference and I haven't read it yet or whatever, then I don't know how to respond. That was a very nice gesture, which I appreciated. My wife read the book.

And we were still early days. It was probably the first year we had just gotten engaged or something. She read the book. She's crying. She goes, I feel like I understand your universe better from having read your book. like it has to i mean that's love too like basically telling your story to where other people understand like creating like a lever for for communication it had an impact not just on me because you know i admired you and i did all the bad

fashion choices right along with you. My apologies. We overpaid for him though. So that was good. But there is like a lever and that presents his love. So it's, it's, it's not me telling you that. what you're saying isn't true. That's the last thing I'd ever tell you. I'm saying from what I saw with my own eyeballs, it presented very differently. I've, I accept it. I appreciate it. That matters to me. It's.

And it's reflective of this. It's because of the baggage. It's because of the garbage that got me to that place. It's because of it. And when you say it in that context. The gratitude I have is the distance I've traveled and how thankful I am that that distance was traveled when we met because that's just another person that was affected positively by... by a lot of heartache and a lot of successes and a lot of this thing called life. And my entire objective...

with communicating that in my book was recognizing that we all live different, well, different experiences. It's kind of the same journey. And if you can find that overlap. in that journey because i think people look at athletes as unidentifiable because like somehow they're so good at something but

But what you have to go through to turn pro at the age of 16, or like my wife playing Wimbledon at 13, think about what you have to go through every day of your life. In some ways, we're so overdeveloped.

you know, in growth and experiences. In other ways, we're so underdeveloped, you know, we're so not ready for what these things mean. And for me, that conflict, you know, started as a child. I mean, it started as a kid. It is amazing how... I also think, and we'll move on to something more fun and fluffier on the other side of it, but it is weird because I think because people talk about it and then you get the generations.

like it's you you're allowed to talk about it now and it's allowed to be okay you know it's it's it's it's naomi talking about it it's you know roger going about his business in a very different way that was less tortuous that i've like i've said i don't have a ounce of jealousy for roger for what he accomplished my jealousy is for his ease of operation like he was able to be his best self daily he was allowed to like do all the so we think

Yeah. So we think, but even so I would, you would have seen it some way, shape or form in the toughest moments, like a crack. It's not meant to question it. It's just meant to say there's a lot we probably don't know too. That's probably right. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a million things, but I think because someone actually like

the bandit off and has a conversation about it i do think it matters to the people following so congratulations for that and kind of walking through that door um one thing i want to do because it would be malpractice if i didn't just turn this into what i want to know about um now because i have you here yeah your brain the way you view matchups the way you break things down

I expect it'll be on full display at, you know, on TNT. Yeah. Set the bar low. Thank you. I'm not worried. I already set the bar. I'm not worried about you. I know you're going to worry about yourself, but I'm not worried. I'm just going to go through. some names lots of which i haven't played and i just want you to tell me what was a nightmare about them and where you thought you could make progress a little bit let's start with someone that i never played uh

Matt's V. Lander. Well, that's a generational question, right? Because when I came into the game, the first time I ever played him, I was 15 years old. I lost to him second round after qualifying at La Quinta, which is, you know, the Palm Springs term.

And I won my first round of main draw and I played him. I lost one and one and came off the court and told my brother, like, I want to play that again. I can beat that dude. He can't break it. You lost one and one? I lost to you when I was 17, two and three. And I said, like, it wasn't that close. Yeah. But my point is, is that he hit the ball. Like I was the first one to come into the game.

Everybody that gets the number one in the world brings something the game hasn't seen on some level, right? You did it. I mean, everybody who gets the number one and has any modicum of staying there or winning slams always do something that the game has to adjust to.

For me, it was about taking the ball off both wings, whether it was low or high, and being able to hurt the ball and being able to do it as early in the court as I wanted to, right? So the game hadn't seen it. So somebody like Mats Villander, who won three of the four Grand Slams in 1988. beat me in the semis of Paris and the semis 6-0 in the fifth because I crammed. Like I came off the court going like,

I could have ran him all day. I mean, like all he's doing. It wasn't about tennis at that point. No, physically. I mean, not to say I would have won if I didn't cram, but my point is, is that that's the way that's the generational gap. So playing Matthew V. Launder when I started to, let's say.

you know, beat him was just a fundamental of, like, he made, and respect to Mats, because he's, the guy never got tired. He got his fastest wind. The guy wouldn't miss a ball for hours. I mean, total respect for everything he's done.

But like he made me feel like there should be weight classes in tennis. That's how I kind of thought of it. It was like at 18, 19, 20 years old. So for me and the way I played the game matched up against him was literally about driving the train through Main Street. It was just like.

You just deal with what I'm bringing. I'm going to get back to that because I think there's a weird end around with someone else for the dental list. I'm finally excited that you, a story that I had heard over drinks for. a couple of years, finally made its way mainstream with the Becker tongue situation where you, but like talk, talk about Boris. Like I went back and watched that documentary and it's happy he's doing well again, obviously. But I mean, that guy was a

Like you watch him in the highlights from 85. He looked different than everyone else. You talk about someone that like shook the fabric of the sport. Man child. Man child. Yeah. Right. With Boris. I mean, I mean, he's, he's. I don't know if he's an underrated athlete, but he's a greater athlete even if you didn't underrate him. I mean, he's a better athlete when you face him.

than when you watch him and respect what he's actually doing. I mean, he's 6'3". He'd crouch in a position at net and you think like you have this big target. And he could swallow that space up like nobody, even if it meant rolling on the ground to cover it under control, right? And if you couldn't deal with his serve, that's a real problem. I mean, one thing about him that was tough, and I had an inroad to his game.

because of the serve. But he could absolutely drive backhand second serve returns or forehands. Either direction. From the deuce court, if you serve body backhand, he could pull that thing and come flying in with his athleticism. He could hit the off one, a bit like Leighton Hewitt would, except offensively, and move forward, right? So now you're on the full one trying to pass him.

Forehand, he could do the same thing. He could pull it or he could go offline and just come flying in with total athleticism behind it. Nothing stressed me out more than somebody that could stress out my second serve, right? It's like you just feel like, okay, what's the deal today? So when I played him...

My first serve percentage had to go way up and I had to have something else. I mean, Boris to this day probably denies that he did that with his tongue, but then I would challenge him with this comment, which is like, are you actually admitting I can beat you 10 times in a row? I mean. I mean, I mean, let's be serious. I mean, like you're like Boris Becker, for God's sake. I mean, how is that even possible? And less. So the guy, no, talk about somebody that.

that, that added flair. And I mean, he, he came into the game, not just on the court, but also off the court. He changed the marketplace from the standpoint of sponsorships and he could take the oxygen out of a room, you know, pretty, pretty quickly. Uh, Ed Berg. Eddie, he was, he was classic. So Edberg, yeah, you know.

When I played Ed Berg, I can tell you now, looking back, more than I really understood it at the time, but the thing that would always surprise you about Ed Berg is you thought he had this... um real weak forehand right which it wasn't as better it wasn't his best shot but it was like

It just looked weird, but he could flight it and kind of put it in corners. Yeah, he could knuckle it, right? Like he would knuckle it. So you have to generate a ball off nothing, right? So nowadays with the spin and the strings, it might be easier to manage, right? Getting the ball down if he comes forward or what have you.

Not as easy with Problend. Not as easy with Problend. I mean, you could reel in a Marlin with that stuff. But what he would do is he, you know, I would go after his forehand and then all of a sudden... He would use the paste that you give him to his forehead. He'd find a hole for it.

Then you go safe to the backhand side of the court and he would just let this off backhand fly up the line. That was, that was the most, his volleys might be the greatest of all time as far as just fundamental first volley. His first volley was like just rocks. I like, I don't know if he's ever missed. first volley. Like if he hit a kick serve, he came in and you were off the court and you buried that thing in a shoe and he had that court to work with.

He's not missing that like 99 out of a hundred times. He's not missing that, that volley. I mean, I mean, Pete could do some incredible things at net, but he can miss that volley. You know what I mean? Edward's not missing that ball, but his shot that was most underrated. was you hit a routine ball to his backhand and he would just hit it routine back. So you're always managing that cost risk. Why do something you don't have to do?

Then the next thing you know, you go, okay, well, I don't need to really take risks, so I'm not going to. And then he would just hit this off one-handed backhand like flyer, like line and come in behind it. And he was one of the hardest guys in the world. How would the way that Becker and Edberg cover the net differently? Because, I mean, you said you couldn't find space against Boris, but Edberg, the footwork was more intense, whereas...

Becker felt like he was tumbling towards things a little bit. He's just watching. Fair enough. Becker, Edberg read the play. And he was there 85% of the time. He read it. Boris waited till you hit it. And then would explode to the spot. And then would just swallow the space with sheer athleticism, size, and ability to lay out for it, right? So he's taking Athletics 6-3 and turning it into...

You know, 6'6 was good hands, right? So that's how I would differentiate the two. I always felt to me like I went to pass Becker. He was waiting for me to hit it. And I felt like Edberg was like maybe a step ahead.

on the percentages of where I'm going to hit it. Talk about Mac. You know Mac had an incredible ability to offset power right to neutralize power so like he he could keep the ball down with no pace which kind of affected the way I came into the game because I came into the game kind of going through guys and Mac was that generation where I felt like you know maybe I can go through this guy but I couldn't quite go through him because the balls he would hit

were not only not much pace to it, but they were always low. He never, you felt like you were lifting on every ball that you hit against the guy. Plus, his ability to cut angles was a joke. His speed was way underrated too. I mean, he was quick. I mean, the guy had unbelievable footwork.

And he took unbelievable angles towards to the ball. I mean, especially in the forecourt, but even in the backcourt. I mean, if he shoveled a forehand from the lefty side, right, he shovels a forehand, you know, towards down the line and gets bad direction.

and you crank it cross, he's already committed to an angle at that ball, and he's buttoned that thing down and coming in. So now you're actually behind. You're having to lift it and having to generate, and he's on top of the net. You always feel like you're lifting the ball against him. Talk about Connors. Be nice. Listen, I mean, Connors, when I looked at him as...

An 18-year-old, I saw somebody I recognized in the sense that he always had his team around him. He always seemed like he had this appropriate... how would I call it, appropriate paranoia about him, right? Like he didn't trust anybody that wasn't on his team, but he trusted his team immensely. And there's something I identified with that. I mean, what he did for the game was incredible. And I mean, Jimmy surprised the hell out of me when I played him by his ability.

Which would have been later on in his career. Yeah, it would have been later on, although years later, he still got to the semis in the opening. Pretty incredible. I was really amazed at Jimmy's ability to take pace. and use it against you right so if I hit a hard ball to his backhand he would maybe stay with one cross to my forehand then I hit it hard again to his backhand and then he would he would take a two-handed early

like inside out shovel, like, like, like a, like a two handed side spin shot, like line. And he would come in, he was only like five, nine, but.

Man, he only came in on his terms. And when he came in, he charged. Talk about a guy that never missed a volley. I mean, he made sure. I mean, he turned his racket into a sand wedge. Do you think we have this thing in tennis where if someone's a baseliner that means we don't give them credit for the vault because like the three of the best volleyers i've ever seen are watched connor's hewitt and rafa thank you for saying rafa right like yeah

Completely. Like, but we were so lazy if they're like a baseline or that means they don't like, just cause they don't come in a lot doesn't mean they're not golden when they get there. You know what I would have loved to have seen? I would have loved to have seen Rafa play a match. where he had to come in 68 times. He still would have won it. Just to watch what he could come up with to set that record straight. Jim Currier.

Yeah, Jim was the first guy that was a bigger bully than I was. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, he was when I realized the game was changing. You know, Jim had a heavy serve. Don't kid yourself. His second serve was heavy. It was hard to hurt his second, hard for anybody. I mean, he had a winning record against...

Krejcik, Krejcik couldn't even come in behind the second serve. You know, he had a real heavy second serve and he had a big first punch like no tomorrow. I mean, this forehand inside out or inside in was monster. He was always looking to take it early.

And although his backhand was awkward and I could imitate it at will and probably tell you his grip just by how many times I saw it from the side of the net. But if it was in his pocket, I mean, he could bat that thing. And it was like a flighted kind of.

it would like sail. It was low and you're going, please go long. Why do I have this feeling like it's not going long? It's just, it, I mean, it eats you. If that ball bounces, it's like, so it's like, I, I, you, you want to get it to his backhand.

And he squeezed that court as good as anybody. I mean, you had to go after Jim's court. Even with your ability to hit it to both corners, it's still like it was heavy enough to where you didn't feel like you could take shots there. You know what? I didn't. When Jim did most his... beating on me was before Brad.

And I didn't really have a coach. So like, I mean, so I, nobody ever told me go after his forehand to open up his backhand. So he couldn't get that ball in his pocket. Right. Like nobody ever told me that, but. But even if somebody told me that, he's still hard to execute against because he's still going to get that first ball every chance you don't hit it perfect. Michael Chang. You know, here's a great thing I'll say about Michael.

Maybe one time I've ever played him where the second set was easier than the first. It did not matter what scoreline was happening. That match was going to get harder as a match went on. He was a problem solver. He was a competitor. He had incredible speed defensively, but I never minded his speed defensively. If I could get on top of the point early, he was content to run.

And I have a great relationship with somebody on the court if they like to run, because I like to make them run, right? So that was my deal. But he also had this incredible offensive ability. to take the real estate if you hit the ball a little short. So he would burn you so many times. He could thump a forehand if it was hanging. And he'd get up to it quick.

And he'd get under every volley. So even if he hit it off forehand, serve out wide, off forehand and in, you get the ball down. He never quit with his legs. He was always under that ball. And it wasn't an easy guy. It wasn't an easy guy to pass because he never came in. when it was just about his size. He always came in when he could use his legs. And so he kind of presented challenges. I don't know what our career was.

He beat me four times, but every time it was like in big matches. I mean, he beat me in some big matches because I knew, and that's another thing he'd wear on you. You knew he was punching in the clock. And it's a tough one. Like I had that with Hewitt. Like you knew going in that it was just, you might win, you might lose. You were going to feel horrible.

at some point in the afternoon to where it's like, this guy is, he's tougher than I am. He's fitter than I am. He's like going to ask all these questions. He's not going to blow me away, which make, it's almost this weird pressure mechanism where it's like, okay, it's up to you. which has its own like set of, you know, getting the wheels turning. Oh yeah. And the gravitational pull of, you know, being so close to the finish line yet the opposite, like.

opposite magnet feeling against him you're trying to close out a match and somehow you go why does the finish line feel so far away uh talk about lemble um So Lendl brought a lot of physicality. He was the first one to bring real training and like I can play for seven hours kind of thing to the tennis court. But Lendl needed somebody who struggled with...

His slice backhand. He needed somebody that struggled with that. No, it wasn't. I mean, he got me early in my career, but that shot is a shot I kind of looked at as opportunity. But if somebody can't handle that hard, let's just call it like a Todd Woodridge kind of stick slice, and they lift that ball to that guy, I mean, his serve was underrated. God, he could hit his spots on his serve.

I, it's funny you say the Lendl thing. That's how I felt against a lot. If I could get away with a chip to switch directions and like move it around, I was fine. But then the three, the three people you needed to beat to win a major had no issue with it.

Or if they like chip better. The three people you'd need to beat to win a major had no problem with anything. I mean, for God's sake. We're going to get to them. But even like Murray. So like I would chip to Murray and all of a sudden. He would chip it back. Chip short.

Yeah. It was a better chip. It was a Dr. Feelgood chip. And it was a better chip and it was going to worse spots. Like, you know, it was going to my back instead of his back in. But that's kind of the way I felt. If I can get away with the chip, then I'm beating whoever was across the net 99% of the time. Yeah.

They were like, you were to Lendl and it took away that option. And it was like, I'm, I'm having to deal with this. Now I got a really whole serve. Now I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's seriously, uh, Leighton Hewitt. We're going to another generation. Yeah. Leighton Hewitt, I mean, gosh, he was a puzzle for me for the first couple of times I played him. It was a puzzle. He could absorb pace like nobody. And if you gave him pace and tried to go through him.

You couldn't beat him cross court. Do it at your own peril. Do it at your own peril. But I tell you one thing. If you gave him nothing, he gave you nothing. So it became this real like. The chip would say against him. It wasn't backing the backhand because I could just chip. Right. You could get away. I mean, I don't own that shot, right? I don't have that shot. But you know how hard it is for me to resist torquing a backhand cross court?

I mean, just, you know how much discipline it takes to play Leighton Hewitt for four hours and not try to rip a backhand when I see space. I mean, the only time you could go aggressive on Leighton. was one time a point. It's like, go aggressive line. And if his shoes are screeching and he sounds like he's out of position, don't believe it. And then if he gets himself back into the point.

Start again, but do not try to hit two big ones in a row. No, don't do it. Like he absorbed pace. Well, plus, you know, he, he was one of the first ones to really turn defense and offense. Like, like he was one of those defenders.

that can go from like scrapping, scrapping, then you don't quite do something. And he's gone from the forehand corner inside the court in the backhand corner. That's the thing with like their defenders. I mean, all the great defenders that we talk about throughout, we're talking about Chang. We're talking about. Matz could come in. We're talking about Leighton. They had the ability and they could recognize the ball.

to go get their lunch also. They would almost lull you into it, but it wasn't going to be predictable, right? They kind of came on their terms. And some of them could have done it more than others, right? But Leighton, I think, was the first one that said, careful, I'm on defense. And if you're not careful, I will get on offense. I feel like Matt was saying to himself, I'm on defense and I don't know how you're going to end this point.

but you're going to have to have 15 more shots, right? Layton was the first one I ever played that could just get on defense, and he's actually in his mind getting fed up with that. And looking for an opportunity to take that point over and using his speed offensively as much as defensively, sometimes two or three times inside a point. And then the one that I kind of think is almost like the prototype for these.

All these guys that are now six foot six that can run, defend, and it looks natural. It doesn't look awkward. It's not like, you know, like Mark Rosset was six foot seven when you played. but he looked like he moved like he was six foot seven. He could punch in the face, but he was Marat Safin. Marat Safin was, first of all, he's six five, right? Massive, yeah. Yeah, massive. So Marat Safin was my, let's call it,

My days, Zarev, right? Like, big, tall dude, served from the trees, monster backhand, better forehand. His forehand was, I mean, he absolutely could dismiss any ball in the mid-court off both wings. Um, moved well. He was like, like, I remember when he beat Pete at the open, I was, I was watching that. And I said, if you were to build a tennis player, how do you not build that guy? Right. First six foot five guy to just like leave, leave.

tracks on a hard court and, and just snap balls off that are sitting mid court and could serve out of the trees and stop you from being in any service game. And by the way, he can just absolutely. pound your second serve. I played him at the Australian Open one time in the semifinals. Should have won the first two sets, lost six and six, then beat him seven, five, finally broke him. Seven, five, six, one. I thought I was running away with it because he was going to do like that.

that escape parachute, you know, Russian thing that happens occasionally with him. Right. And he ended up beating me in five, but he could play five. I was so sore from just the first move defending my serve.

first or second. It was like you, I would hit a quality first serve and there was a lot of lunging. I mean, his return was, I mean. Looked like a toothpick in his hand. Looked like me holding his pen. Like a baton. Like a baton. It was nothing. It was, yeah, no. And then, and then he knew what he was doing moving forward. How that guy doesn't have double digits is confusing to me. Pete. Oh, my God. So everybody knows what Pete was great at, right? And you had the...

you know, privilege of playing him. I had the privilege too many times of playing him. But we all know that a serve might be one of the most fundamentally great shots in all of sports. I mean... I mean, what he could generate with his serve. I mean, it was like his poetry in motion. It was so connected. Serve was unbelievable, right? Speed. I mean, he...

He was selective about his speed. So you could actually think to yourself, maybe he's not, doesn't move that well. But then when he sees opportunity or smells blood in the water, he turned on those jets. That dude had a 40 that would just. blow out anyway so speed we knew his hands we knew here's the one thing i think people didn't really get about what pete was so good at at least as it related to how it matched up against me

He refused. To let you get rhythm. To let you get rhythm. He refused it. I mean, when I say refused it, it was like that dude would hold serve and then he would try for two points on your serve. And then if he didn't win those two points, the game's over. He didn't care. His goal from that point on the rest of the game was for you not to actually hit another ball. And so what you end up realizing is...

geez, here we are. We've held serve uneventfully. He held it. I held because he shanked a ball. You know, this games are going by in a hurry. And all of a sudden it's 30 all and he's hitting three chips in a row to you. Or all of a sudden it's 30 all.

And he hits something off the frame and it floats and finds a piece of real estate. And then he uses his speed and darts forward with his hands. And you go to hit what you would call a routine passing shot. And you realize, I haven't hit this shot in 25 minutes.

And you have to now hit it to not lose the set. I mean, Pete's one of the only guys I ever played in the finals. When you get to the finals, you know you're playing well and you don't worry about playing well. You just hope you can do it better. When I got to the finals and played Pete. I worried if I was going to go from playing great to just not playing well, because that was his ability to sort of lull you into this abyss. It's like, you just felt like...

Okay, nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. Why is it set over? Can, hold on, timeout. Can just like somebody tell me like what just happened there? I mean, I thought I was playing just fine and the set's gone. I mean, yeah, Pete deserves all the credit for that.

I think might be the most clutch player of all time. He was unconscious about like, just he, he would do like, he would do this thing. And I don't think we operate this way. I'll speak for myself. I definitely don't operate this way. He could lose a set in practice.

Saturday before a Monday to some chucker who's ranked 400 in the world and it wouldn't even affect him a little. Do you think he even played a set in practice? I saw him lose to so many bad players when he was training at Saddlebrook. I was there. I mean, it was like, but doesn't.

And I asked him, I said, how do you, how do you, how do you even, he goes, I don't know. He's like, it'll be there. I'm like, what'll be there? He's like it, it, I don't even know what that is. Like, I don't know how to, I don't know. So a quick little story about him. He was retired.

A couple of years retired. I was still playing. And they were trying to put this deal together where me and Pete play Mac and Connors. And there was this whole handicap system. And it was for huge dollars or whatever. So I called Pete. And I'm like.

You know, like, what do you think? And he's like, yeah, I mean, you want to do it? I'll do it. And I was like, like, I mean, like you saw me last week and, you know, I'm hitting the ball pretty well. You know, I haven't seen you in two years. Okay. I was like, how are you doing? Right. Like, talk to me about your game. He goes. I mean, just give me a couple of weeks. I'll just roll the arm over. I can just imagine that conversation with you. If someone said you had to play like.

You would have been, you would have been like, I need to like get everything right. I would have been into, I would be, I would be in a tailspin. I would have paid a million bucks not to put myself through it. Yeah. Pete, one time we were on a flight and I had him trapped cause we're the only two people on it. So he had to talk to me.

And I remember he told me, and it just broke my soul, and I knew he was absolutely right. He goes, you were just good enough from the baseline for it to be a problem for you. He told you that too, huh? Yeah. Yeah, I'll never forget. I use it as an example quite often. I mean, I don't mean to bring this up, but like when we played in Cincinnati, it was a perfect example. It was like you held serve like quickly, 1-0, and then.

And then I think I got down like 1540 of some long points, back to deuce, add, deuce, whatever. I finally hold. At one all, I felt ready for any pressure opportunity that might present itself. Because you'd have hit balls. Because everything was kind of, you know, like the radar had...

Come on, right? So, like, if you gave me a chance that next game on your serve, whatever it was, it was like, I felt like I could take it. I never felt that way against Pete. I felt like I might miss this, like, shockingly bad now. I had a hard time with your pace.

Cause I can, I can, I can let it go, but I needed like when I had two feet under me, if I was playing, you know, one of the old school Spanish guys or like, I knew that I was going to have time where both feet were set and then I could go, but I needed.

I didn't have like that quick, you know, trigger like Pete, where he could just like move on one quickly. And so against you, I felt like I was always kind of backing up, backing up back. I just didn't feel like I could, I could force it forward. So. I always saw you as, like, let's just take away the personal side of things. I always saw you, like, I always saw you in my own mind, like, pace to the forehand safe, no pace to the backhand safe.

Pace to the backhand, I have to worry line because you can redirect that like nobody's business. No pace to the forehand, I got problems. No pace to the backhand where you get around it, I got problems. So if I go no pace to your backhand. And I don't like the way that thing came off my racket immediately. Like I had full attention for you getting around it. But if I liked the way it came off.

my shot, I knew you were going to have to generate with the backhand. Then I could physically kind of position myself in a court to then go faster to your forehand, right? If I went fast to your forehand right away.

I knew that unless you hit it perfectly, I could pick the next one up and get it down to your back end, right? So those two elements that work together always made me feel good only in the baseline exchanges. I love that for you. The problem was getting to the baseline exchanges with you. That was the problem. Love that for you. Sounds awesome. That sounds great. Come on. I mean, I still got to find a way to get into the game. Call them more. And then you've given us so much time. Roger.

You played them in a, people are going to forget you played them in a Grand Slam final. Yeah. I mean, I played them in the quarters. It was two quarters too. I played them in the open quarters and Aussie open quarters. You know, Roger was the first guy I ever played against where. I could hit a ball exactly how I wanted. I knew it, and I still didn't feel safe. Like, I knew I was going to bleed him with a backhand, and he was going to slice it.

Normally that's pretty good territory to be in, but you always- Your slice comes off weird though. You always had to have your clutter. It's so like, you have to like get, like really kind of create that like friction mechanism against it, right? Like it just like doesn't get to you. And then if it-

His slice comes off different. Yeah, there's no doubt. But you know what he did so much differently? It's like he would take one big step with his right foot if he's going to head over a backhand. And he catches that ball later than most one-handers catch it. Right. So, and then he could throw that thing. Right. So like he'd step back and just letting the ball travel that much deeper in the strike zone just made you pause that, that, that, that split second.

And then if he didn't hit it all that well, I'd never felt like I was seeing... That pause meant you couldn't take that step in and then... So on a side note, from a strategic standpoint in tennis, the hardest, the easiest thing to do... on a tennis court is to expect opportunity and then abort. Expect opportunity, then abort. The hardest thing to do on a tennis court is to not expect opportunity. Then all of a sudden you get it.

Right. And then you're up to it a second late. Your mind's going a mile a minute. And and then you can over over juice that. You can under juice it. You could talk yourself into it's like it's like we're always looking to slow down our side of the court. And if you look for opportunity. and it's not there, you keep it slow by boarding, right? So with Roger, I would hit a ball and I wasn't allowed to look for opportunity because even if I looked, I could be in trouble, right? It's like...

He could just hold it and then penalize you. I mean, the way he was magic. I mean, he's just absolutely magic. When he beat me in the finals of the Open, I mean, I was saying hello to the next player of the... next future generations. Little did I know, you know, we'd have two guys named, you know, Rafa and, you know, Novak come around. I still say there are people who serve bigger.

Um, but I still, when people ask me as far as pitching a ball game, I think you and Roger were really great at pitching a ball game. You have 17 tosses. Like you would throw them into different things. You would hit one out of your ear. You'd let one.

it would get a foot past where it normally. And so like, just for our listeners, like you get rhythm off of someone's serve and that's when you time your split step and that's when you, you know, start looking and when you're picking them off clean, you're, you're finding that rhythm.

This motherfucker would literally like toss the ball up two feet higher, then serve one out of his ear. And Roger had that game too. He could quick serve. He could lay off. He could, you know, hit one wide. He could slight. And I thought you two were the ones where like you would toss it up.

And I know you wanted to get to your kick to open up, but like you would kind of save it for certain moments. You two, like Pete served great. His second serve was way better, but he had all the options also with speed. I think you guys had to negotiate your speed in a way that was the most effective that I'd ever seen. Well, yeah, I mean, listen, I don't disagree with that. I was very purposeful in every serve I hit to set up the rest of the point.

But I tell you, people forget that Roger was just a straight serve volleyer for a couple of years early on in his career. And he played me at the Open just serve volleying. I mean, I was like, you know, thank you. I mean, I was like, thank you. Like, literally, it wasn't until he actually stopped doing that. But I'm like, oh, one or oh, two or something like that. I, those years run together because I actually.

liked the game at that point but no but he yeah because I remember like Pete was even congratulated he even came out of the shell and congratulated me in the tournament because it was going to be a problem and it was a bad round of 16 or something. But he served volleyed and it was like, whoa, I mean, like, so his serve dropped off to me dramatically.

if he got predictable behind it, like when he's, when he, all of a sudden you didn't know on top of it, if he was going to serve volley versus stay back. I didn't see that. It was like, he would pull the string at certain points. And like, to this day, we've played however many times. I don't know where he's going on a break point on the outside.

Oh yeah. Like anywhere he wants. Yeah. And different paces. There's the one 17, there's the one 28, there's the similar to you, you know, same swing. It's like a change up versus a fastball. And like a golfer scaring the cup on every roll too, even if he misses. And by the way, like just.

people at home listening to commentators going like, well, they're not, you know, they're not making returns like against you, against the players that we're talking about. If you don't stick that first ball against them, it's not a matter of making it. We're not just missing returns because we don't know what to do. Like it's because that first ball, if I lay.

in the middle against him, I might as well have missed it. You kind of have to create. My whole objective is to get any ball that isn't hit purely. I mean, when I say purely, not just off the string. Stuck. But depth or direction. is getting penalized and when you walk off the real estate of that tennis court that's about everywhere except maybe two feet from lines uh talk about rafa and i want to get it back to the i drew a line from matt's because you said

He likes playing defense, and I like making people play defense. I want to say Rafa might be the one that changed that. You guys played an 05 in the final in Canada, if I'm not wrong. I remember watching that one, and it felt like, oh. he's taking Andre's shots to the corners, but he's creating this spin profile that like, it was the first time I'd seen you uncomfortable after you had gotten kind of on top of the point. Yeah. So unfortunately that year it was a high bouncing.

Canadian open court, which is just a bad, just bad rate, bad math there with Rafa. He was the first guy ever played. where I looked at him going out there not knowing better. I looked at him like, okay, lefty, a lot of spin. If you go after his forehand, he's going to leave a lot of balls short. You can dictate from there. I don't mind if he's going to get to the extra. Same thing you're saying.

But I went out there early in the match. I pounded one backhand cross court. He tried to fight it off and go deep. I took the next one early and I moved him around and won the point. And I literally think I physically saw him like the Terminator go. Okay, I got it. Next time he does that, I'm going so high and so short that in order for me to take that thing on the rise, I had to commit so far into the court.

And what I never had is that speed, right? I had always had good footwork. I always, you know, had a decent. It wasn't line to line. It was controlling the middle and the circle C movements. Yeah. And if it was windy, it didn't matter because my feet were going, you know, but so all of a sudden I like.

bake a backhand cross court, he'd throw that thing up in the air where it's landing on the service line. If I don't get up on top of that ball, I have to now back up, else it's going to be way over my head. So I'm literally going, okay, so I got up on top of it.

And I hit it perfectly. He's bruising you. No, no, you're stuck in the middle of the court. You're done. So then I said, okay, I got my play. Now he's going to do that thing. And I'm going to commit and come forward and just screw it. Cause he's way over there. Right. He throws a spit up. just take it early up the line. I'm already at net. Like, like, like literally I'm already there. He's in the corner. He still finds a way to throw that thing at my feet.

I actually hit a great for me drop folly right because it's the only play I had underneath the net. And he runs and throws that thing over and around me. It wasn't in until it bounced. And then he throws a Vamos like three feet away. And I'm going, respect. Respect. I mean, that's too good. That's too good. But I got his weakness, though. You know what his weakness is, right? Tell me. The only way I broke serve that match. Tell me. Here's this guy that had all these quirks to him.

Oh, did you kick over his water bottle? Yeah. I wanted to do that one time. I kicked over his water bottle. Did you really do that? Yeah. I tipped it over.

Oh, I wanted to go full grammatical on at one time. No, no, no. I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to cause an issue. I just wanted to see how he reacted. And you just kind of get a little. So he walked to the stage. So then he goes and he starts doing the. I've talked about this so many times with my friends. The butt, the headband, the eyes, the nose. He goes through his whole routine.

that he's done a million times. And then just before he serves, it's like his eyes turned to his water bottle. And it was like not perfect. It was dead. Yeah, anyhow, I broke him for the second set, but that didn't last. Short-term fix. Band-aid. I don't think you played Novak, right? I actually played him in a...

In a pre Wimbledon exhibition grass court thing, which is useless. I mean, he was over a hundred in the world and give us, give me your thoughts. A lot of times I use you as the example of him being able to control the middle of the court. but then you add five inches, you add the length, you add the defense, and it's like, I don't know where to go. What do you see when you spent the last 20 years watching Novak? I see the greatest...

Defensive player the game's ever seen. And shockingly, this might shock you, but when he needs to be, not when he needs to be possibly the greatest offensive player. the game's ever seen in the sense that he could open a court up from the center with a forehand cross if he feels panicked at all. He's the kind of guy, if you think about it,

He's like the boxer that needs to feel the glove hit him before he even engages, right? He gets out there on a tennis court and he just goes into this lockdown mode, let the match come to me, right? And you start throwing punches at him and then you get away with a few and then you start getting him like...

a little bit engaged. And then he goes into hyper lockdown mode. And then he starts making you have to hit five winners a point to win a point. And then all of a sudden he gets a little agitated at that. Then he throws a little offense in and you're thinking to yourself, where did that come from now?

Now that there's a little offense, like I couldn't win the point when he was on defense and now he's on offense and he just like slowly, it's like if you're swimming in the ocean, like with 15 foot swells. And Novak's like the wet blanket that gets thrown on you. And you're just like, but I'm drowning anyhow. And now you're just, you just, it's like, he's like an amoeba that just.

that just swallows you and drags you under. It's like, he beats you defensively. He beats you offensively. It's like, he wants to beat you. Like he wants to beat your mom too. Like, it's like, like take it easy. I mean, it's, it's okay. You're going to get through this. We don't like just.

But the guy is world class. I mean, how many different ways can you say it? He can hurt you from any part of the court in a defensive position. He can hurt you from any part of the court in an offensive position. Return-wise, you were an offensive returner. You could make him when you needed to. Every great person could be better at something. But simultaneously, he had the Murray length thing where he could stretch and put a return in play.

and you on second serves where you're putting on their shoe tops with force. Like the offensive-defensive thing doesn't just end during the point. He was able to do it with returns. So here's how I saw his return, both as an opponent. And also being around him up close, you know, he, the whole purpose of a return is to get to neutral. That's the whole purpose of return, right? Like if, if you're better than somebody in the, in the.

and the meat and potatoes you want to get, but neutral means something different depending on how well you move, right? So like for me, neutral meant I had to get ahead on the return because if I just hit the return that Novak hits, Somebody's going to move me and I'm behind, right? Novak's not behind. So his need to panic on being offensive with his return is non-existent. I mean, he doesn't need to. Now, the question is if he had to be aggressive.

what would it look like? And of course, if he did it over and over again, I think he has the ability to do it better than anybody. But for him, it was always about direct. It wasn't about... I don't feel like with Novak's offensive returning that it was ever about, he had to be pissed off. He had to have a reason. Like it was hard to get him to think he even has to be aggressive on the return.

Yeah, but if he had to, I mean, he can do it. Talk about just quick couple lines on each. This new, you know, when the big threes, you know, Novak will eventually retire. We had this, you know, where they swallowed up 60 some odd grand slams over time. Stingy bastards. Okay, yeah. We're getting back to some parody. And then Carlos comes in as 1-4 by 22. Sinner. is looking like an extension of Novak. Maybe not the defensive skills, but when he gets on the front foot.

He doesn't just hit it through the court. He hits it through the court. I was amazed at the amount of shape that he has on it and how heavy he hits it. Like he's like an algorithm. And so you have these guys again. What are you seeing when you're watching these two players? Oh, yeah. I mean, the same thing you're seeing. I mean, you know, Alcaraz's upside on anything that isn't sure footing. It's not concrete. Yeah, I think is a little...

is a little higher. The thing that amazes me most watching Carlos play live was how little his speed diminishes on clay and grass. Like most people who are fast, they go to grass and their speed comes down, you know.

their core coverage comes down 5% just because you have to be really careful in the corners. You got to be careful on your first step. You got to let your body weight move before you start pushing. You have to run through shots also. You can't stop and hit at the same time. You can slide into him even if you slide into him.

The first step out has to be very careful. Second step has to be your push. So everybody's movement comes down a touch. His didn't. It's like he trusted himself so much on the power of his second push. That him running for a drop shot that caught him cold, center court Wimbledon, it would have broken my groin to think about going to that ball. And he just trusts that pause.

until his weight goes, and then he sticks on the jets, and he gets there like a flying saucer versus the F-15. It's like everybody's flying a plane, and he's like... changing altitudes and reversing and his speed doesn't diminish. So on slippery surfaces, I mean, his upside is incredible and he's still so raw. I don't know if I hope he should learn how to maximize.

And we should enjoy watching him before he maximizes because it's so much fun for the fan to watch the way he plays the game. But he still has so much more upside from the standpoint of... And now Sinner's the exact opposite, right? Sinner is like constantly maximizing. He's never hit a ball. He doesn't really need to, you know, and when he does let one rip, it makes you wonder if.

you know, if he was forced to, what that gear would really look like, because he's playing, he's taking 85% cuts, and they're like... his jab is like a straight right. It's like a straight right, you know? So, but then don't kid yourself from the corners. I mean, you don't put them on maybe Novak from the corners because Novak's. He's absurdly great. I'm just saying like, you know, maybe gets in the front foot sooner versus Novak is more likely to actually invite.

Right. The test to the corners. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, young just wants to take over it and never look back. He just smothers. I mean, let me ask you a question. You had to call it today in hindsight, whose career. Do you think is better resume Alcaraz or Sinner when it's all said and done? If he had to, we're popping off because life control curves. One there, I don't know is the answer. My thing would just be on the early.

the early things we've seen with Alcaraz and injuries. I don't know how a body moves that fast for 15 years. And that unnecessarily fast. But I said the same thing about Rafa. Right. So I was wrong about Rafa. I thought, I thought there's no way this guy plays past 27. There's just no way that you can cycle a different, I mean. Isn't there a difference between running for every ball and trying for every ball like Rafa did versus creating unnecessarily unnecessary like, like, like.

Yes. To rest on yourself. Yes. The, I would go center just because I can see him doing the same algorithm. I view him as a piece of software, like input, output, input, output, input, output. And. With Carlos, I'm just like, one, he's an artist. Is he going to get tired of it? Speaking of, he's a little edgy this tournament.

I don't know when you're airing this, but we're talking about the French Open. Tomorrow. Yeah, it's Monday. It's been a little edgy. I don't know. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. Yeah, let's see what happens. Curious to see it. I would go center just because it seems like every Tuesday is kind of the same. You know, like, but neither would surprise me. I say that with zero, zero confidence. One thing I want to, I want to touch on real quick before, before we finish is.

Can you talk about how you scheduled your practices at Wimbledon in 1999? I didn't. You didn't, but Brad did. Did he have any instructions? He seemed to think that it was supposed to either be before or after someone. Oh, so that's become, yeah. So I, I would Wimbledon in 92 alongside my now bride, Stephanie. I guess if you ever win Wimbledon, it was probably next to her during those years.

And that was the first year they canceled the dance. And yeah, I was just bummed about that. Tried for a few years. Wasn't worthy enough, apparently. But then we won the French together in 99. And it gave me the confidence, maybe. you know, maybe I'm worthy now. I don't know. So it was her birthday and, um, and I knew that and so does the world, but I was flying back to London and I was like, I wanted to just accidentally run into her and accidentally give her a birthday card that I made.

And accidentally leave my phone number on or what have you. So I just, you know, so Brad would schedule practices. Like, just, it was simple. He'd go to graph plus one and then. I just, I mean, I stalked her the whole tournament. So I'd show up early and I'd act like I stretched. By the way, pause on that shit for a second. anyone who knows andre he would walk into the locker room he'd kind of go like like this like do this and then go practice and then

If he actually stopped at the locker room on the way to his car, it was a miracle. Less time spent in the locker room than maybe anyone that's ever been on tour. So the fact that you're out, it didn't stretch.

No stretching, no massage, no one's ever seen body work. It's like this thing, what happens? What happens when Andre goes home? We don't know, but it certainly wasn't stretching. So the fact that you're out there 15 minutes early, kind of pretending to stretch is the best part of the story. Oh, without a shirt on too.

But you know who spent less time at a tennis court than at a tennis court? It was Steph. I mean, cause she had the luxury of totally. And then, but she was the same way. She just like. Zip, zip, zip, gone. Like, yeah, no, that was definitely, I was not, one time I was, I might've been on the table more than once, but I remember one time that I was on the table, I think it was Henman. He, he looks over at me and he goes.

Can I just say something? And I was like, what? What's up? He goes, this is a real honor. What's an honor? He goes, actually being on the table next to you because. I don't think anybody's ever done that before. Ever. Yeah, because I was just never, it wasn't my deal. The visual of you scheduling practices around her practices and actually getting there and stretching would have ended me. We didn't know each other at that point, but that would have.

That would have absolutely killed me. You want me to tell you when I knew Rafa, I would never beat him? Yes. That's what I would want. I was at the French Open. I don't remember what year it was, but it was one of the years where I said I shouldn't come back to this tournament anymore because I have no chance. But in any case, it was in 2000. And here's this 17-year-old kid.

And you remember those lockers where they used to click them, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get your code and then you have to click the number. You couldn't just go to the numbers. Yeah. Click, click, click. And you look at his code, click, click, click. And then I was the only one that I prided myself on how hard I worked. I was the last one.

you know leaving the job so to speak except this kid comes in later than me and we're the only ones in the locker room and i could see him through lockers and he looks at his code and i was like oh he's a rookie you know he doesn't know he's trying to figure it out and click click click click and it doesn't open and he's like

And he starts again. He looks at his code and click, click, click, click, click. And it doesn't open. And he goes, bam. And he hits the locker. I'm not kidding. God is my witness. He hits the locker. And then he's like. shakes it off. And then, and I'm, I'm going, is this kid serious? Right. Then he's like, click, click, click. And it opens and he goes, no, no, no, I'm not making it up. There was no one else in there. And he self almost.

He was like in a war with the locker and he was going to win it and he won it. And I was like, I can't beat this guy. It says that's too good. I mean, and then he proved it 14 times. Yeah. It's crazy. I'm going to tell one more anecdotal story and then we're going to let you go. But like there are a million stories like this about Andre where it's this offset of being serious and also kind of loving shit as much as I love shit. So.

Doug Spreen, who is my trainer from 03 on, but used to be in the locker room. Andre wouldn't, wasn't, he would only be in there before he had to like go on or something. It's like a hot day in Australia. So there's this, this is twofold.

One, I was in there. It was like, oh, one, oh, two, no, oh, two, probably maybe oh, three, something. And it was like, everyone's complaining about how it's like, oh man, it's hot out there. And like, I was expecting like, oh, okay. And you go, fuck's wrong with you. I was like, what? What are you talking about? He goes, imagine a job. Imagine complaining about a job where you only have to be better than one person a day. It's like.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's that lands. I thought you were going to tell the Prenticell one. Yeah. I'm going to tell the Prenticell one. This is my favorite. You know which one I'm going to tell. It's the best one. It was Dougie Spreen was in there. Dougie Spreen tells the story.

Who's Dougie? Who's Dougie spring? Dougie spring is my trainer and he was on tour trainer forever. So when you see someone run out on the court and have to fix something, that was, that was Dougie for a long time. And then he worked for me until for my entire career. Once I want enough to make enough money to pay him.

but so you're playing print a soul. It's a good player, German dude, but like a lot of, you know, you go to Australia and especially Andre was in his run there. Like he was in, you know, four to five. He was like, he was Novak numbers for half a decade. And.

Prenticell, like, I don't know how to explain it. It had like the short calf, like coming from Germany, you'd see people get to Australia and they were like too pale to take the heat. Like you would see, it's like that guy's freckles need to connect in order for him to handle this heat, you know, at some point. So.

Dangerous player, kind of punchy, like would bleed you a little bit, but like not super consistent. One of the last guys to finish on the opposite foot when he served kind of situation. But I guess Dougie, I guess Andre said to Dougie before he's going out, it's hot.

hot in Australia. And I guess, I guess you said to him before you went out, you said, Dougie, you're going to have to come get him today. And Dougie was like, come get him. What do you mean? Come, come get him. He's like, you're going to come get this guy today.

Jackie's like, all right, something else. And so sure as shit, like apparently you go out and you're just bleeding in corner, corner, one of those hot days and he can't get you out of the center of the court. And you're just like, you have one.

story probably gets over told but you're laying off of it like you're happy to extend pain you win the first set 13 11 in a breaker and print is still like it's the full thing he's got the fan he's throwing ice on himself he's going you know and then sure enough like the heat obviously didn't get any cooler andre's doing a little little walk up quick you know they'll jog out of the chair you know past him and the whole thing sure enough print a cell taps out

It's even better than that. Dougie Spreen comes on the court and had to get him. Tell me. I've heard this story retold 15 times. I'm so ready to play. My bag's packed. I'm standing by the door to head out of the locker room. And it's kind of a written rule of sorts, an understood code between players. If you're ready to go, you're waiting, you've been there, you're going to walk out, you're going to go first. And they open the door, give us a green light.

And he blows over my shoulder, kind of bumps the bag and just passes me. And that's when I looked at Dougie and I went, you're going to have to come get this guy today. I'm going to kill him. I'm literally going to kill him. And, and, and it's the only time this has ever happened on a tennis court. The only time the doctor was watching from the side of the court and the doctor called the match. I'm not kidding. No.

Prentice Hill didn't ask for a trainer. The doctor was watching and they wrecked. So I've been 1311 in the breaker. He, he fist pumped me a few times. We start the second set and it's the strangest thing in the world. It's like he couldn't find the ball. It was like he was seeing three. I don't know what he was. He just looked gone. And the doctors came out. His heartbeat was like. something in the 180s, and he's breathing fine.

So they were like, this match is over. This guy, he doesn't know where he's at. They didn't let him come out of the corner. No, no, no. So they went, laid him on ice. He didn't even shake my hand. I mean, it was like, I'm sitting there like. Sound like he wouldn't have recognized you at the time. So they lay him on ice.

But I'll give this guy so much props because I was practicing the next day and I'm going at it and he like walked across five courts and just came over and just said, I never got to shake your hand for that display yesterday. That was like.

well done oh cool yeah he gave me a lot of props for it i love it i said he said you put me in the hospital but i've never heard a tennis player predict that the trainer's gonna have to come get their opponent yeah it was it was hot that day it was hot my shoes melted and literally your bottom of your shoes that was the rebound ace days where it would absorb the heat so much that literally your shoes would melt so going down in australia

you'd have to you'd walk down you know six steps or five steps and then you'd have to walk up two or three steps so it was like you're standing at the bottom and you're looking at it and it looks like it's this rubber surface it smells like burning tires and you see the water you see like the old like you know i don't know what it's called you see in the desert

And it smells like burning tires. And it's like, this is going to be. And there was nothing worse than 110 degree day where it starts to rain. They close the roof and everybody's thrilled for the players. And you're going. No, it's more humid. Now it's the worst. Now it's the worst. And the ball doesn't jump. Like it's good for the fans, bad for the players. Horrible.

Real quick, because we've taken too much of your time. How much are you enjoying the current process of Labor Cup? And how much are you going to enjoy? getting in the mix with, with, with the guys and being able to retell stories, what you got right, more importantly, maybe what you got wrong. What made you say yes to the labor cup job? I went and saw it and I heard.

coaches talk about it i heard some fans talk about people i know that went to it you know i heard uh business people talk about it from a hospitality perspective i mean i called bullshit on all of it right so i had to go see it and You watch those players, they're legit. I did the same thing and I came to the same conclusion that I think you're going to get to. Yeah, the players legitimately take pride in not just trying to beat the other one, not just trying to impress their teammates.

but they're actually trying to show them teammates, I think, some things too. Like, you know, there's like real intense competition going on.

captains into it. I mean, hospitality, unbelievable. I talked to a few people when I was there and I said, you know, if I gave you tickets to the quarters of a Grand Slam or weekend at Labor Cup, what do you take? They said, in a week in the labor cup because we know who we're going to see and we might even see him play doubles and like and like this is like this is like it's like it's like straight straight to the veins like if you love tennis

Like, this is what you want to see, you know? So they've really done an incredible job with what they've built. I mean, Mac and Bjorn have done an incredible job. And, you know, as far as what I look forward to, I've already engaged with many of the players. Even the other team, you know, a couple of the guys have reached out to me because they feel I'm accessible, which I am. And it's like, and I don't know if I, I wouldn't enjoy telling stories as much as enjoy seeing how they process.

Trying to kind of figure that out and just the smallest thing can make such a difference and not just in one week in their life, but hopefully in the growth and trajectory of their career. Well, I can't wait to see it. We're going to, we'll be out there.

Producer Mike, that's Laver Cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Producer Mike. Andre, I didn't know how to pronounce his name when we first started the show. You're going to love it. It's going to be great. Andre, thank you for coming on the show. More importantly. Thank you for being a mentor to me for a million years. Your foundation is the reason my foundation happens because of a conversation, which you don't remember when we're 17.

Basically, the gist of it was there's no time like the present. I wish I would have done it earlier, which was crazy considering everything that you've done for as many people as you've done it for. I think the magnetism. and this is just me is because there's so much power in not being perfect, but then kind of having that manifest in perfection sometimes in what you do.

And I think owning that is as admirable. I think that's the reason why you've drawn people in for, for as long as you have, you're like almost perfectly imperfect. And so I thank you for coming on serve. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a mentor. um i promise you you've done harder things than than tnt this weekend it'll be fun it was a pleasure thanks for watching sir