Culture is really important and effects how we think about people. It's next how we treat one another. You know, it does affect the issues around tangible things like wealth inequality, because it affects, you know, how people advance, how they're viewed in the workplace, how they're evaluated. Tina Chen is on a mission to change workplace culture, to ensure that women have safe, dignified, and fair places to work and succeed that they get equal pay and opportunity in a
setting that's free of sexual harassment. Tina's doing that as president and CEO of Times up the movement that started in two thousand seventeen and help put the issue of sexual harassment on the nation's front burner. I'm Kim Azareli, and this is Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. We're bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women. You need to hear. Tina Chen is a force of nature, a longtime advocate on behalf of
women and girls. Formerly, she was assistant to President Obama, Executive Director of the White House Council on Women and Girls, and Chief of Staff to First Lady Michelle Obama. Recently, Tina sat down with Carol and Tasted, Group President North America for PNG, and Dianna Bass, Vice President Global Diversity, Equality and Inclusion for PNG. Their talk was featured in our special six part series Getting to Equal. Listen and learn why Tina Chen is one of Seneca's one hundred
women to hear. Tina, thank you for being here. Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me, Tina. Let's start with what Time's Up is and why it was started. You know, you were there from the beginning, as you co founded the Times Up Legal Defense Fund back in tell us about all of that. Well, you know, as you mentioned, there was this moment in October when, thanks to the reporting of the New York Times and the New York magazine UM, the stories about Harvey Weinstein
cracked wide open. And what happened was women all of a sudden realized they weren't alone up until that point. So many of these women who were survivors of sexual harassment in the entertainment business thought they had suffered alone. Because actually that's one of the part of what I call the proditors playbook, right, which was to keep people silent and siloed from one another, so that the full
dimensions of the problem were unknown. Um and spontaneously, these women started gathering in l a in late October just to come together to support one another, having realized they weren't alone. But to their credit, they very quickly turned their personal pain into action. They wanted to figure out what could they do, recognizing they were women of privilege with platforms that would affect women in other industries and help them. And I happened to be in Los Angeles.
A lot of my life is just being in the right place at the right time. You just never know. And one of the things that became clear that we needed to do was to create some mechanism to lawyers to help defend these women because the other part of the predators playbook was playing itself out. And that was as women started speaking up using the hashtag me too that Toronto Burke had launched several years earlier. Was they were getting threatened with defamation lawsuits, because that's what used
to happen. If you spoke out, you were going to get sued, you know, by the predator, and that could have shut the whole thing down. It also became clear to me something as a lawyer, I did not know, and that was although you can get attorney's fees in Title seven cases for sexual harassment, you can't get it if you're a low wage worker, right because your wages
are so low, so the recovery is so low. So if you are a victim of sexual harassment as a restaurant worker, as a farm worker, you can't get somebody to take your case. And so we needed, you know, that legal defense fund for them. So I'm really proud that the National Women's Law Center took it on. But the part of Times Up that I'm now you know, the president CEO of his our advocacy you know, and impact lab research arm of the movement to really you know,
expand to the work that we're doing. And what we're doing is number one, continuing to focus on survivor justice always right, supporting survivors when they speak up, like the Harvey Weinstein survivors during the Weinstein trial. But we also know we don't want to just keep dealing with the aftermath, right, you know, we don't want to just be in a world where we're picking up the pieces right after sexual harassment occurs, you know, to really keep sexual harassment from happening.
You have to deal with all the structural barriers that are keeping women from having safe, fair and dignified work. You know, that are keeping us from having fully inclusive workplaces where women and people of color and lgbt q A and disabled workers can fully thrive and move up the scale. We know, if it workplaces are more inclusive, they are safer, right, and um, you know, we need
to then therefore address all those such structural barriers. So it is things like pay equity and paid leave and fair hiring and promotion practices and the whole panoply of
structural barriers in our work places. And so that's our mission is to you know, also work force safere and dignified work through changing you know, um, people, company and laws, so you know, really you know, addressing you know, public policy, addressing companies and private policy, and addressing you know, our culture and what we can do broadly in our world with people. It's so important, that's so important, Tina, and I really appreciate the fact that you talk about fixing
the structural issues. We talk about it in our language as fixed the system, but it is about getting at much more breadth of what happens in the workplace, and so i'm you know, there's such a significant impact to the workplace, particularly workplaces where harassment and um it is part of the culture. Can you talk a little bit about that. Oh, it's an important question. I mean when you when sexual harassment is happening, that's a symptom. It's
a symptom of a toxic workplace. Right. Once you get to the point you know of um, you know, actual sexual assaults happening in the workplace, you've really got something very broken, you know, within a workplace. And let's be clear, sexual harassment occurs on a spectrum. You know, we talk you know, there's a lot of attention to the Harvey Weinstein or the less Moon vez you know, types of actual criminal sexual assault that we're happening in those cases.
But harassment isn't just that. It's also you know, the more subtle verbal you know, harassment that occurs, you know, based on someone's gender, or based on someone's race or disability. You know, the cutting jokes, right, the belittling that happens. You know that then there's also sort of an escalation that looks like it's favorable. The I like what you're wearing, and how about some drinks, and then let's go on
a business trip. And you know, you know, if at each moment, none of as a manager, you don't stop that, you don't address those microaggressions and those lesser forms of harassment, you wind up with a workplace that's s related all the way to a place that's unsafe, and that affects your entire workplace. Right, it's not just the fact that the women have to suffer it. They're not as productive, they're not able to bring their full selves to the workplace.
They will leave your workplace, so you're gonna lose your talent, will have high turnover rates. Um. You know, there's also the bullying that's not even sexual at all, you know, toxic workplace culture, and that's not even illegal. But the legal the bar for let bad behavior is really low. When you lose, you use the legal definitions because things like just the equal opportunity bullying, the guy who yells at everyone and throws telephones of people's heads, it's not illegal.
And in fact, the winning defense in sexual harassment cases is to say, oh, I don't just harass women, I harass everybody. And if you had rass everybody. You win, you win the sexual harassment case. But I was unbelievable, right I would submit. If you're and you all round, cup you know you're running a company right as managers, that's probably not the workplace you want, right, that is not the kind of thriving, productive workplace that you want
to have. UM And and so that's why you've got to address culture, workplace culture, you know, broadly, because that's what we're trying to fix, UM and all of these other ways in which you make sure you have a diverse and inclusive culture. UM is part of it how you bring people who are diverse into the workplace, but then also how people treat one another in the workplace. UM. And I'm sure you all know this. UM is that tone of the top manners, right, you know, it starts
at the top of a company. You know, and I've been saying to CEO is that I've talked with, Look, this is every bit is important right now, how you fix your culture as your new technology is right or the latest real estate investment you're gonna make is a company because your workforce is your talent. And you know right now, you know the other thing that happens or the negative enforcement from the Harvey Wednstein moment was all of a sudden, companies realized, oh, there's risk here, right.
It's not just something that's kind of like a nice to do for my employees thing. If I don't pay attention to culture. There's huge enterprise risk here. Um. And I think that was a motivator for companies to start changing. You know, it's interesting. One of the things that we talk a lot about is that, you know, in this work you have to really hold two realities. And one reality is that most men don't harass women, and the other reality is that most women do not lie about
their experience of harassment or hostile work environments. I mean, both of those things are true. And so, you know, peeling back the layers of the complexity of this issue in the workplace is really difficult. Research tells us that you're absolutely right, that is a very small percentage, you know, you know, somewhere less than ten percent of men are you know, the people who are committing of the sexual solve.
And the problem there is there were pe defenders, like when you tend to do this once, you tend to do it over and over again. Which is why it's so important as employers too catch that right so that it
it doesn't happen over and over. And that's why that this this sort of silence that grew up around silencing survivors and not talking about it in a company and not people you know, employment actions being taken in secret, so you didn't know who was a sexual harasser and they could move to another part of the company, for example, because it wasn't identified. You know, um creates the problem and perpetuates it. And you're absolutely right. I get the
question all the time about what about false reporting? Right? And again, what we know from the sexual sault field, and there's been study after study to try to demonstrate, you know, false reporting, and nobody has been ever able to document anything higher than a seven to rate of false reporting, right, because think about it, people, what you have to go through as a survivor, why would you
just make that up and bring it forward? Right? And and so the vast majority of women who raise these claims, you know, aren't lying about it. And but here's the system. We don't we believe at times up it isn't believe all survivors. That's not our call, you know, it is survivors need to be heard and they're you know, what they're saying needs to be taken seriously and there doesn't need to be due process. You know, we're not saying don't investigate and don't come out with a conclusion at
the end. And as a conclusion at the end is it didn't happen, well, then okay, Joe, But we need a fair process where those survivors, you know, story was taken seriously and investigated, not just simply dismissed or swept under the rock, which is what typically happens. Have you seen any impact during the pandemic of either increased or decrease impact of harassment, hostile work environment experiences of women?
You know, remember harassment doesn't require physical presence, right, And I think the misnomer is harassment is only happening when I get you in the hotel room. That's not that's maybe the far end of the extreme, but harassment can happen and Zoom calls right, you know what people what what? What? People? You know are people who are shut down when they speak. People, whether they're called you know, belittaling names, are treated like they don't have you know, they aren't you know, a
serious participant in the Zoom meetings. We've heard stories of women who are getting you know, harassed by their you know, um uh manager because they're calling them at three o'clock in the morning, making all sorts of demands on them, you know, over the phone, or again belittle ng their work, work product and their conduct. Um So, Yes, harassment can
happen remotely. It's harder for managers to spot. It's one of the things that prompted us actually, in this moment of crisis, to put out something called the Times of Guide to Equity and Inclusion during Crisis, which folks can get. You know, you can text the word leaders to three zero six four four to get open source free copy of the guide downloaded. Don't forget that when you're working remotely.
Not everyone's home space is a safe space, right so the domestic violence Hotline has seen increases in calls, you know, with everyone can find in the home, it's not always a safe space for everyone, and employers should be thinking about that too. We'll be back after this break, Tina, this is such a fascinating conversation. I want to pivot a little bit, and we want to shift a discussion to the issue of pay equality. Can let's talk about what you're seeing right now for women in the area
of pay equality. Well, we just did a survey actually at Times UP. We did a a national survey with Triestadham and Perry and hum Research, you know, UM, to find out what people are thinking about pay equity during
a pandemic, during an economic crisis. I was heartened because it showed that over an overwhelming majority of both men and women, so we're talking about overall in the survey of men even agreed that addressing pay equity even during our crisis is a critical, important UM priority that we all need to address. UM. It's very different because I lived through the last Great Recession in the White House, right and working you know, on the White House counsel
on Women and Girls. And what we found back then was people just thought they just wanted a job, you know, in issues of pay equity and paid leave, we're just personal issues for me to figure out, not public policy issues for legislators or something for my manager and my employer to figure out. And that has shifted in the last decade where people now recognize that these issues of the structural barriers for working families are issues that we all need to care about. Employers need to care about,
public policy makers need to care about. Um. And that really showed on in our in our survey. But you know, the downside was, you know, the huge impact that paying equalities having, especially on black women and Latin X women. You know a majority of Latin X women in our survey don't have two hundred dollars in their bank account right now. They are struggling to just make ends meet. Um. Uh. And you know that that goes for you know, like forty percent of black women UM. And meanwhile that that's
twelve percent of white men are experiencing that. And you know, we also asked, you know, what what would it take right what do you need to succeed in your job? And pay quality, you know, was one. They also know that they're not getting pay equity because of race discrimination and gender discrimination. UM. You know, we've you know, got majorities of black and brown women who are saying they had to leave jobs because of race and gender discrimination
that was occurring. Um. And they also point the way to the things that we need and it's all of the system fixes that we've been talking about. They need jobs that include paid leave and paid sick leave, you know, and better promotion practices, um. And those are the things. So you know, even in a pandemic moment, even in an economic crisis, what we're trying to say to companies is this is the opportunity to build your company back better,
you know, build our economy back better. Um, make sure that we are more resilient for the future, because if we are, you know, this is a time when you've actually stripped your company down. Right, if you furloughed everybody, then re examine your pay policies and start bringing people back into jobs where the pay inequity has been fixed.
You know. So there's an opportunity in this horrible crisis, and that is I've been lining you know, what we're going through to like stripping our economy if it was a house down to the bare foundations. Right, everything is out of the house because everything is broken, and the opportunity has to build our structures back better. Right when build and incorporate in them the things that we need.
You know that I think about paid sickly. I've been talking a lot about paid sickly as an example of this. You know, we are one of you know just a handful of countries around the world that does not have some form of national paisically policy. Well, what if we and then we had to scramble right to put an
emergency one into the CARES Act. I think what it would have been if we had had one, If we had a national paisically policy going into the pandemic, If businesses had been able to already build that cost into their business plan, if workers knew they had paidsickly to take so they could stay home if they were sick without risking their job or their paycheck or their family member was sick. You know, think how much better we would have been and we could be right now in
managing this pandemic. And I would suggest to all of the business leaders who are listening, you do not have to wait for Congress to act. In Congress is acting slow, or your state legislature. You can set the policies in your company that are more forward leaning and forward looking.
And I would suggest if you do that right now, you are the business that's going to come out of the pandemic quicker, come out of the recovery quicker, and will be more resilient and ready for the next crisis, because we know another one will come eventually, and you will be able to build your business back better and more, you know, stronger, with more talent that is deeply invested
in your business. You're absolutely right, Tina senecas one hundred women to hear will be back after the short break. I want to go back to pay equality through that same lens. It's so important that pay equality also be seen as an issue by both women and men. It has to become the minimum standard for companies looking at gender, race,
disability and more. And there's a related topic which sets an even higher standard, and that is wealth equality, which is starting to be a broader conversation around the world. Wealth equality is about the amount of wealth that women and men accumulate over their careers. It relies on having women get equal access to higher paying fields and higher paying jobs, and it requires all of us to look at our total talent bull when we're making advancement decisions.
Otherwise those disparities remain at every level, and then the compounding impact of that creates a significant wealth gap for women versus men a p And we've declared that we want to have fifty fifty representation at all levels of our company and representation of multicultural individuals in the US. We are working hard to ensure that we have women equally represented in the highest paying roles, whether that's leading a business unit, leading a technical center, or a manufacturing plant.
And I'm really proud to share that today forty percent of our managers are women. Over of our C suite executives or women, and of our dependent directors on our board are women. Well. Un familiar with the work of PNG, and you you all have been doing a great job. I mean you've been intentional about it and put the working and that's what it requires. That is what it requires.
Intentionality is word we use so often. And as we've also said so many times, we know that women are highly effective, proven leaders, and we need to ensure that we give them that equal opportunity to lead. And in fact, on that note, Tina, I'd love to hear about the campaign you've started at Times Up, which is called we
Have Her Back. So we launched you know, we have her Back in August, right as Vice President Biden was a speculation about who would he pick as his VP nominee was happening, and myself and several other of my you know, women women leaders that I know, we feel like we've been to this movie before. We knew what was coming, right, and we could see it even before our nominee was picked. The kind of misogynistic and also racial slurs and suggestive language, UM that we're being used.
And you know, we kind of decided we weren't going to sit quietly anymore about that, UM, and so we launched you know, we have her Back in August hashtag we have her Back. Interestingly, we co wrote myself and several other women leaders co wrote a memo to news editors UM just the weekend before Senator Harris was picked as a VP nominee, and we sent it out that that Friday morning, the weekend before before there was a nominee, saying, you know, we know he's going to pick a woman.
Here's the thing you should watch out for in your reporting. Don't call her ambitious. Don't focus on her clothes or what she looks like, or what her husband did you know, or her personal pass and lo and behold twenty four not twenty four hours later, The New York Times ran a headline about risk corsages and comparing you know, like the last year lead for our a race too. You know, did Walter Monde want to bring a risk corsage to
to Jarre lead for hour when they first met. And even worse, l A Times ran a story that compared you know, the VP nominee selection process to The Bachelor and compared you know, the White House to the Ultimate Fantasy Suite. It's like horrific, and they proved the case of why we needed we have her back. And they've
been so many examples since then. And here's the problem though, and here's how it relates to what's happening inside your company and other companies, is when women leaders are talked about like that, we then, you know, there's a reason why we haven't been able to crack that highest flass ceiling of the presidents of the United States, because that's how we talk about women leaders in our political discourse, and therefore we don't see women leaders as being able
to occupy the highest homics. But it's not just that, you know, political discourse is so permanent, you know, it is the reason why not only can you not see a woman as president of the United States or vice president of the United States, you don't see R. S. CEO of your company or a director of your company. You don't see her as a district manager at that level. You know, the server and a restaurant who aspires to
be the manager of a restaurant. The restaurant owners don't see her in that way because we are getta culturated to thinking of women not as women leaders, but as contestants on The Bachelor. And that's why we did this. And it's so deep. I have to say, right, this is this is so much the social norms, and that's why we want we have our back. We're trying to
call it out, not to do cancel culture. It's not that is to get people to recognize the coded terms, the language they're using, and push back against it and don't let that be part of your decision making process, whether it's voting or trying to figure out who's gonna be the next manager in your company. That's exactly right, Tina. You know, I want to go back to the perception and language we use about women. You were talking about this earlier, but it's not just about the vice president
to race, and it's not just about one woman. I mean, we're so numb to the language that's used in the media and online and in everyday conversations that we don't even hear it anymore. I just had to pause on that for a moment, you know. I I keep saying to Caroline, I'm just so mad, and I don't know who I should be mad at. You don't know why you're mad because it's just coming from all sorts of places and you can't even identify where it's coming from. Right.
I had an activist one described that we're all living in a soup, right, and when you're in the middle of the soup, you sort of can't see it, right, and it can't taste it, and you don't know where the flavors are coming from, but they're surrounding you, right. You know, you need to sort of pull back from the soup and taste it and be able to understand
what's going on. And that's what we're trying to do with we have our back, is at least peel back that veil of what's the subtle signals that are affecting our culture. You know, culture is really important. It affects how we think about people. It's affects how we treat
one another. You know, it does affect the issues around UM tangible things like wealth inequality that we started talking about, because it affects, you know, how people advance, how they're viewed in their workplace, how they're evaluated, you know, Tina.
The other thing that I want to just go back to for a moment is your comments earlier about the importance of national sickly, the importance of parental leave, the importance of flexibility in our policies that applies equally and gets used and adopted equally by men and women, because it also broadens that opportunity for men to play a bigger role at home with family, with childcare, with schooling, with homework, with dental appointments, whatever the case might be.
And and that's another big important part of this because the more that we can broaden the role and the norm for men, it also has a positive impact for women. You know, we have to start seeing UM women UH women's leadership as as something that is highly effective and something we should expect. We have to begin to see that men washing dishes, or diapering babies or taking kids to school in the morning is also the norm that we should come to expect. And these policies are an
important part of that as well. Oh, it's interesting you mentioned that when I was in the White House, you know, we had a huge working Families agenda that we did and we worked on and we actually had the first ever White House someone on Working Families um And in one of the lead up events to that large summit we had, there were so many events on specific issues, and one of them was on men on stay at home dad's you know, and the support that they need.
There was a Mets player who actually took two days off and missed a game or two because for the birth of his son, and was roundly supported by the Mets, by the way in White j League Baseball, but roundly criticized on sports radio right And we brought him in to talk about it, and there was there's a whole group of men who just were mazed and that they
were at the White House talking about this. But the other thing that was striking is that we had some child psychologists, you know, a guy from Yale who came in and talked about the fact that it's demonstrated that if men are involved with their children, you know, in the zero to three range of their lives, that has lifelong effects. You know, on child development, on child achievement.
Absolutely and you were absolutely right. These need to be policies that are parental leave, not maternal leave, you know, and men need to take it right. So the other thing about tone at the top is we need leaders at the top of the business to set the tone in the business to take the leave. When we build safer and dignified work, we're building it for everyone, for
everyone to succeed. You know. We had a conversation with Eve Rodsky uh the author of a book called fair Play, and one of the things that we talked about with her on paid paternity leave is that not only is that really healthy for families, it's healthy for men UM.
Their outlook is better. But we also connected it back into the workplace that men who take paid paternity leave, paid parental leave come back into the workplace and have much greater empathy for men that are in that cycle as well, like they understand now what that all means, UM. And so I think in the world of creating workplaces that work for everyone at break when when they come back in UM, that is also helpful for the women that they're working with who are going through childcare leave
as well. Oh, absolutely, and you know, and it is an ongoing thing, so it's not just durven leave moment. Right, We're not experiencing a moment where schools are closed. So what were are we doing during the day for kids if you've got school aged kids. But it's also of elder care, you know, if they're if they're sick, um, and yourself self care. So caregiving really needs to get
broadened and defined. And I am terribly worried, you know, that we are in a new caregiving crisis with this pandemic where you know, women are now opting out of the workforce because they have no choice, so there's no access to free or affordable childcare, and we I'm deeply concerned that we will lose you know, all the progress we've made on women's labor force participation where we're now fifty in the labor force, that during the course of
this pandemic, we're going to lose that. You know, I want employers to start thinking about if you've got a lot empty space now, because you're only bringing half your workforce back to the office, maybe use an empty space so child aged school age kids can come to their school work. You know, one floor down from mom or dad, you know, so that mom and dad can actually come
into the office. I mean, I think we need to start getting a little disruptive and a little creative in how we deliver caregiving in this country, and how do we support the wages of these essential workers who are our caregivers and who are predominantly women. We're taking the house down to the foundation and building it differently, building it in a new way. Again, I'm moving to a slightly new topic here, But another industry that can probably
use a reset is tech. Right. Tech drives everything we do, everything we touch, but it also has this huge gender gap. You know, I have a computer science degree, and I think there were more women graduating from computer science when I graduated in the eighties than there are today, which is a crazy stat right, And we need women in tech. We need women helping to design the products, the systems, and the world that we live in. Um there's a
fun fact. PNG has the highest the nation's highest average rate of women credited with inventions, as determined by the number of patents that they've been assigned. Now, women inventors at PNG had a filing rate I think it's about which is higher than institutions and companies like M I, T, Microsoft, Amazon, um, you know, and we make we make Tied and Pampers and DoD you know. But one of the reasons our female inventor rate is so high is that of our
employees working in research and development are women. And when you have diversity and invention, you get these products and applications that work for all people. So you know, these reset moments are so important. Well. Absolutely, they used to complain it was a pipeline problem. I don't actually think
it's a pipeline problem anymore. With increasing numbers of women with computer science backgrounds who are out there, they just are leaving, you know, and they're leaving because of the culture, right, the broa culture. And we've seen a lot of that, um that happens. And I've addressed startups and I said, look, you're a startup, but you need to actually invest in this right way, because what happens with these startup companies is hr isn't invested in you know, by the by
your angel investor. You're just dealing with the product and then all of a sudden you are big and international and you get thousands of employees and a terrible culture that does not support women or anyone who is different, and then it affects your your product because you know, there's all the stories, for example about face recognition, right, and face recognition being sort of completely sort of you know,
not recognizing black people, not really fully recognizing women. But tech folks like to think, oh, you know technology is neutral, right, It's just the algorithms. But the algorithms got written by people, right, and with people's biases, you know, built into it. It's the same thing with women's heart disease not being nice, right, because everything's been built on the examples of male heart disease.
I mean, there's so many places that it's present, and it's so important that we that we get women represented so that our world can be a better place for all of us. So, Tina, this has been such a great conversation, and I want to go back to one other thing that we talked earlier and just put it into words. What's bothering me so much about the corsage comment and then the Bachelor comment is that it's just
such a microaggression against all women and it keeps happening. Well, it is because, as you know, the three of us are women who grew up in business, right and you know I was. I was a corporate litigator for twenty three years before I went to the White House and loved it. And yet there were all those micro aggressions every day that she had to sort of deal with.
The you know, I remember I had I had jurors who would tell me after a jury trial, you know, we were so surprised you spoke English, so or you know, being mistaken for the corporate reporter, you know, when the depositions starts. So we have all of those things. So yeah, So Tina, we just have one final question for you, if you could leave our listeners with one final thought to remember. Tell us what you're hopeful about right now? What makes you get up in the morning and do
the important work that you're doing. Well, let me acknowledge it's a tough time, right. I think it still remains a very tough time for all of us, you know, during this unprecedented pandemic moment. So it's it's tough. I've been experiencing some of the toughness of of being isolated. You know that many of us are experiencing. Um. But I will tell you what gives me hope and keeps me up is the enthusiasm and the activism that's out there. You know, I think people are rising to the occasion, um,
to this moment. This is a transformational moment, and you know, it was thrust upon us, you know, um, by by
nature and and it's a global transformational moment. And it as an opportunity for us to seize that moment and you know, make a turn for the good, you know, and not go back to an old status quote that wasn't working for so many people, but to build really a new future, and new economic future, a new workplace future, um and and so that that I'm thrilled by that opportunity that we have, and I'm thrilled by the energy that I see in so many sectors to do it. Tina,
thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation. That's been a real joy. Gosh, Tina, such fantastic work you're doing. Thank you. It's so good to know that a bold advocate like Tina Chen is working on behalf of fairness and equality for women. Here are some of the things that really resonated with me from the conversation. First, combating sexual harassment is part of a wider fight for
dignity and safety at work. As Tina says, sexual harassment is actually a symptom of a toxic workplace, of something very broken that needs to be fixed, and a healthy workplace is something that every woman and man is entitled to. It's all about how people treat one another. For companies, that's just as important as installing new technology or making a real estate investment. Finally, while the pandemic has presented us with many challenges, including a crisis and caregiving, it's
also fostered a spirit of activism and engagement. The pandemic has stripped our institutions down to their foundations, and now, as Tina says, we have an opportunity to build them back in a more inclusive way. Tune in next Thursday to hear about our next featured woman and discover why
she's one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner png G. If you like what you heard on the show, rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. We hope you'll join us for our next episode of one hundred Women to Hear, where we can all listen, learn and get inspired. Have a great day.