But if we can talk about climate change, what else might we be able to talk about? And here's how we do it. Rather than beginning by dumping scary facts on people, or by arguing, or by focusing on what we disagree on, we need to begin our conversations with something that we agree on. And if we don't know what we agree with somebody on, then ask the questions and learn about what matters to them until we figure out where we could possibly find a point of connection.
Then connect the dots to how climate change affects what we both care about. That was Catherine Hayjo, a climate scientist who was on a mission to save the planet, and she says that we can do that by having honest conversations with each other. I'm a land Revere. This is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women you need to hear. Katherine Hahoe refuses to give
into despair about the climate crisis. She's chief scientist for the Natured Conservancy and a professor at Texas Tech. Her message about the need for communications seems to be getting across. She gave a TED talk about climate change that has been viewed more than four million times. In September, she
published her latest book. It's called Saving Us, a Climate Scientist's Case, Her hope and healing in a divided world, and it's one praise from everyone from Margaret Atwood to Scientific American Listen and learn why Katherine Hahoe is one of Seneca's one hundred Women to hear. I I'm speaking today with Katherine hajo and we're so delighted to have this climate scientist with us. Catherine, you've done amazing work in terms of the climate issue, the existential threat of
our time. You're the chief scientists for the Nature Conservancy, and you teach at Texas Tech, so that's quite a bit. And you were recently at the Climate Summit in Glasgow, and as someone who knows the subject so well, so deeply, I wonder how you would sum up the state of
the world in terms of the climate threat today. Well, from the perspective of the science, it is not too cheerful because we know, in fact, we've known since the eighteen hundreds that digging up and burning coal and gas and oil produces heat trapping gases that are building up in the atmosphere, wrapping an extra blanket around the planet.
We as scientists were so concerned about the potential impacts on humans on our society that scientists took the unprecedented step of formally warning a US president about the dangers of climate change in nineteen sixty five. And we have produced more than two thirds of our commulative carbon emissions since that warning occurred. So in terms of the science, we truly are in a dire situation where every action matters,
every year matters, every ton of carbon matters. But what gave me hope in Glasgow was seeing all of the people who were there. For so long, climate change has been perceived as a niche issue, one that matters to climate scientists and environmentalists but not to everybody else. But the reality is climate change is a human issue, and no matter what we love, who we love, or where we love, all of these are already being affected by
climate change today. And so what gave me so much hope in Glasgow was seeing the tens of thousands of people there from every walk of life, from industry for nonprofit, young old, from academia, theologians, um, religious leaders, negotiators, policy experts, medical professionals, everyone you can imagine was there because they understood that climate change is in everything issue and in everyone issue, and you know, in order to want to fix it, we only have to be one thing, and
that is quite literally just a human being living on planet Earth. Oh that's so well said. I think one of the reasons that climate is an uncomfortable discussion at times, or their engagement hasn't been what it needed to have been and clearly needs to be ramped up, is that when scientists talk, it seems remote from everybody else. And you just gave a Ted talk not too long ago that's already had four million viewers, and you said in the talk that the single best thing we can do
to fight climate change is to talk about it. So explain what you mean by that, particularly since for many people it seems like not an accessible topic or a controversial topic. So it's very interesting because when we look at the data, it turns out that seventy percent of people in the United States are already worried about climate change. Those numbers are greater in other countries like my home country of candidates, about the same in the UK, greater
in the EU. So most people are already worried, and in fact, here in the US, when you ask people who are mothers if they're worried, eight three percent of moms are worried about climate change. Young people, the biggest problem we have. The biggest gap we have is not between the people who say it's real and the people who say it isn't, even though the people who say it isn't are certainly very loud. The biggest gap we have is between people who say it's real and people
who are activated. Because it turns out only a fraction of us are actually actively engaged in doing something about this. How do we close that gap? The catalyst to action is when we use our voice to connect with others, to say what could we do as a family, What could we do as a school, What could we do as a business or a place of work. What can we do as a neighborhood or a city or a state. The catalyst to every single one of those actions is when we talk about why it matters and what we
might be able to do together to help to fix it. So, how do we talk persuasively uh to those even though their numbers and it may not be enormous, who still are very skeptical, or to those who worry about jobs in terms of fossil fuels and the kinds of worrisome emissions that are a big part of the problem. How do we talk to well those as well as everybody else in a way that is very compelling. I think there's really a simple formula to having positive, constructive conversations,
even about something as contentious as climate change. You know, here in the US over the last decade or more, climate change has been at the top of the list of the most politically slarized issues in the country. But if we can talk about climate change, what else might we be able to talk about? And here's how we do it. Rather than beginning by dumping scary facts on people, or by arguing, or by focusing on what we disagree on, we need to begin our conversations with something that we
agree on. And if we don't know what we agree with somebody on, then ask them questions and learn about what matters to them, who, what, where they love, what their concerns are, what concerns inform their positions, Until we figure out where we could possibly find a point of connection. Then connect the dots to how climate change affects what we both care about and how climate solutions are consistent with the values that we have. But how we begin
that conversation is important. And I want to say one cautionary thing, which is often people immediately say, oh, well, that's great. I'm going to run off and I'm going to have a conversation with the most dismissive person I know, my relative, my neighbor, my colleague, who's all he's saying, it isn't real, it's just a hoax. Finally I have them, you know, the solution to show them how they're wrong. Well,
here's the bad news. The bad news is is that for people who are truly dismissive, who have built their identity on rejecting the reality of this problem, not because they truly have a problem with basic physics. If they did, they'd also reject the reality of stoves, bridges, and airplanes. But they rejected because they don't think there's any solutions
that are compatible or consistent with their values. So for the seven percent of people in the United States who are the very loud dismissives who bring this issue up all the time to pooh pooh it, it is not possible to have a constructive conversation with them because they can't listen. But here's the good news of us are not dismissive, and in fact, people often say, well, why bother talking to the rest of the people If you
know we already think the same way. You might think you think the same way, but how do you know if you don't talk about it. And even if you who think the same way, the chances are they're not activated because most people aren't. The vast majority of people who are worried about climate change are doing nothing about it because they don't know what to do. And that's
where our conversations come in. Bond over shared values, connect the dots to how climate change affect us here and now in ways that are relevant to us, and then talk about what we could do together to help make a difference. Every action counts. That's certainly very well said. You mentioned values, and I know that you have brought the dimension of faith into your communications with others on this issue. How does religion tie into your message and
climate change? Well, it ties right into step number one, which is beginning a conversation by bonding over shared values. So in my book Saving Us, I encourage people to do a personal inventory, who are you, who do you love, what do you love, where do you love? And think of those as ways that you can start to connect with other people. So my personal inventory is first of all, I am a scientist, so I can definitely connect with people who really like science, and a lot of people
are very curious about science. But I am also a mother, so I can talk to other parents about our kids in their future and the air they're breathing and their health and how climate change affects that. I love skiing, and you need snow in order to ski, so that might sound trivial, but that is important and close to my heart. Um. I am Canadian, so I can talk
to other Canadians about what's happening in our country. I live in Texas, which is the most vulnerable state in the US too increasingly severe climate and weather disasters as climate change loads the weather dice against us, so I can definitely talk about that with other people here in Texas. And I am a Christian, so I can talk with other people who share my faith about how if we
truly take our faith seriously. And this is true not just for Christianity but for every major world religion that has concepts of stewardship or caring for nature or creation or other living things, and just as importantly, caring for the poorest and most vulnerable and most marginalized among us, our sisters and our brothers less fortunate than us. If we truly take our faith seriously, we would be out
at the front of the line demanding climate action. So that's my inventory, and I would encourage everybody sort of do your inventory. Are you a gardener, Do you love beer or wine? Do you like beaches or traveling? Um? Do you enjoy hiking or birding or kayaking? Um? Do you you know? Are you concerned about national security or about a stable economy? Or are you a farmer or
a rancher? There's every all that. My goodness, there's a million points of connection in our human life to how climate change affects us and to how climate solutions can truly benefit us. You know, you talked about the fact that lots of people are very, very worried and that the great majority about climate change. But the gap comes with what we're going to do about it as individuals. And I wonder what are some of those things that
are listeners? For example, could be doing to address climate change, but don't feel they have the competency, or don't feel they're part of an organization where that can be easily done. Give us some simple ideas about what kinds of things individuals can do or families can do. I would love to do that. Uh So this is actually what I started asking myself because as a climate scientist, I study this issue, but I also want to make a difference.
So I thought, well, what could I do? So the first thing I did is probably the most obvious thing for many people. I decided, I'm going to use a carbon calculator, and there's a really good one called the cool Carbon Calculator from Berkeley to figure out what our family's personal carbon footprint is, and I'm going to do everything I can to reduce it. In fact, every year I still take on two new habits that reduce my use of energy or fossil fuels or transition to clean energy.
Habits that make a difference in my personal life and my family's life, like reducing food waste, getting rid of the extra freezer, changing the type of food we eat to eat less meat, especially red meat, um, hanging up the clothes to dry getting a plug in car. Solar panels have significantly reducing my travel. But here's the thing.
As a scientist, I calculated that even if all of us who are worried about climate change did everything we could in our current economy, which is heavily skewed in favor of using fossil fuels, if we did everything we could to cut our personal missions, that wouldn't even be of the pie. So I figured there's got to be something more we can do, and I realized it isn't only about our footprint, it's also about our shadow. Our
shadow is the way we interact with others. And when you look at how the world has changed in the past, how civil rights were enacted, how women got the vote, how did our society change, it wasn't because the president woke up one morning and decided, I really need to give those women the vote. But rather, it was because many, many, many other people, people who originally were you know, of
no particular fame or renown. They decided, no, the world really does need to be different, and they used their voice to advocate for change at every level. When we look at how change is happening with corporations like Microsoft, it's because employees who worked there used their voice to say,
you know what we could do better. When you look at cities like the city of Houston that have a climate action plan and they're meeting their Paris targets, they decided to change because there's many people in that city who were using their voices to say, we need climate action.
When we look anywhere around the world wherever we see amazing things happening, and we start to look around the world, there are amazing things happening everywhere, even right here in Texas where I live, the common denominator the catalyst to that action is when people use their voice to say, here's why it matters to us here and now. Not not tons of science about antarctic or polar bears, but look look at Texas. We just had three five year flood events in three years. We need to do something
about that. And then talked about what we can do, like, for example, we already get almost a quarter of our electricity and Texas from clean energy. How could we make sure that we're getting some of that for our school or a place of work or our city. So there's so many things we can do, but it all begins
with having that conversation. So again, that's why I did my TED talk and that's why I wrote my book Saving Us, because the number one question I get from people these days almost every day is what gives you hope? And the answer to that is when we act, hope is all around us. And the second question I get is how do you have a conversation like this with somebody?
And that's what I wrote the book about. And my favorite thing is to hear from people who said, Okay, I gave it a try, and it actually surprised me at went a better than I thought. I've talked to my mom about this already ten times and it went awfully. But we finally had a breakthrough. I'm not going to say that, you know, we're getting solar panels tomorrow, but we were able to find the connect and I was able to listen to her concerns and she was a little bit more open to what I had to say.
So it truly does make a difference when we have these conversations, again, not dumping the science on people, but really focusing on having that conversation as a catalyst to talking about what we can do together. Senecas one hundred women to hear we'll be back after the short break. You're providing a sense of movement, bringing lots of people together to demand this kind of attention to the problem.
I think is something that is growing but has been lacking on this issue, unlike some other issue as you mentioned. And I think to that end, people think and there has to be big systemic changes in many ways, but they can affect bringing those changes. Is that not right? Oh? I completely agree. So people often argue do we need individual action or do we need system wide change? And my answer to that is yes, because what is the
system made up of other than people? And how do systems change other than when people engage in those systems? And how do we engage again by using our voice and of course sometimes using our voices literally talking, but sometimes it's writing, Sometimes it's posting on social media. Sometimes it's just doing something where someone else can see us doing it. There is a myriad of ways to use our voice to engage in the system to catalyze change.
Let's talk about women in particular. You know so many times women seem sidelined or marginalized in the climate change solutions camp. Uh, and yet they are so important to the solution UM, and I know, particularly in places that are the hardest hit in the developing world, UH, that
women need to be engaged in the green economy. They can even be empowered economically with access to the green economy, so clean cook stones for example, or as you mentioned, the installation of solar panels or conservation programs electrical mini grids that they can manage. Why has it been so elusive to recognize the role that women have to play
in in in climate change solutions. Well, you're completely right, and I'm so glad you brought this up because this is something that is obviously very near and dear to my own heart as a woman as well. Women are disproportionately affected by climate impacts, especially in low income countries. As disaster strikes, as droughts get longer and longer, UM risk of child marriage increases, UM women are are left picking up the pieces as they can no longer feed
their family. When UM climate change tips the balance in an already failing state over into refugee crises or exacerbates pre existing crises that are already there, the first things to go are the public education system, in the public health system and all of a sudden, something as as natural as having a baby can become a life threatening event if you lack just basic health services that we
take for granted every day. So just as woman are disproportionately affected, though so too there are all kinds of amazing solutions that empower women, lift up woman, benefit women, and oh they help with climate change too. So education of women and girls, especially in low income countries, empowering women to make their own decisions as shareholder farmers um.
In my book, I tell the story of Solar Sister, which works with women in Sub Saharan Africa, helping them to sell solar technology that can be used in places where they don't have access to a power grid, which enables children to do their lessons at night. UH. It allows women to uh, to feed their families and to gain an income. There's so many solutions that address gender equity and address climate change. To really with climate solutions, we need to be doing all those ones that have
win win wins. Oh, and they also help with climate change as well. With with these solutions, it's like, well, why aren't we doing them? There's so many good reasons today to invest in low income communities, right, here in the US, to invest in low income countries, to invest in people who work hard and who feed their family and who want to go to school. And by investing in their lives today, we can invest in climate change tomorrow by helping them become more resilient and by helping
them grow towards a clean energy future. Well said, you know, you're so enthusiastic when you speak about this, so energized. So come helling, And I wonder, what is your personal story? How did you get into this? What was your child like childhood like? Uh, did you think about becoming a climate scientist when you were young? No? I didn't, but I definitely thought about science. Um, and my child had
absolutely influenced why and where I am today. So my dad was a science teacher and my grandmother, his mother, had a degree in science education. And she in fact named my father after the first female astrophysicist in Canada, Dr Bibert Douglas. So the apple did not fall far from the tree on that one. And in fact, growing up I I just grew up thinking that science was the coolest thing anybody could possibly study. Who doesn't want to know why the grass is green or why the
sky is blue? Or why polar bears have black skin. So I was almost finished my undergraduate degree in i astronomy and physics yet again when I need an extra class to complete my breath requirements, and I looked around and there was a new class on climate change over the geography department. I thought, well, that looks interesting. Why
not take it? So up until then, I had always thought of climate change as one of a group of environmental issues deforestation, bio diversity, loss, air pollution, climate change that we're real and we're concerning, but that environmentalist cared about, and environmentalists worked on, and the rest of us wished them well, sort of the way I thought about it. But when I took that class, I was completely shocked, first of all to find out that climate change was
much more urgent than I had imagined. Second of all, to find out that climate science was the exact same physics that I've been learning in my physics and astronomy classes. I don't know what I thought it was, but I didn't think it was that. But then what really changed my life was when I found out that climate change
is profoundly unfair. It disproportionately affects the poorest and the most marginalized people, whether they are living in a low income neighborhood rate here in Chicago or Houston, or whether they're living in sub Saharan Africa and some of the poorest areas in the world, without running water or electricity, or access to any of the resources we take for grant today. I grew up both in Canada as well as in Colombia. We moved down there when I was nine years old, and so I grew up knowing what
that type of poverty looks like. I know what it looks like to live in a place that doesn't have running water or electricity, and when the storms come, your home is just washed down the side of the mountain and you're lucky to survive. I know what it looks like when drought destroys your crops and there's no recourse, there's no resources to provide food for your family. And so when I realized that climate change was affecting those
who are already suffering from everything. At the top of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals list, which says very simply, you know, zero poverty or no poverty, zero hunger, access to clean water, access to basic healthcare, to education, to gender equity, to good jobs, to affordable energy. Climate change puts every single one of those very basic goals at risk. And so I thought to myself, this is such an
urgent issue, and such an unfair issue. How can I not do everything I can to help fix this problem? And surely will fix it soon, and then I can go back to studying galaxies. That was a very long time ago. And you're going to be at this for a long time, needless to say, And we're fortunate that you are. The clock is running down as always, and we keep running out of time. But let me ask you in conclusion. You had mentioned the fact that people ask you what gives you hope? I know you've talked
about rational hope. Can you explain both the term and then how you answer what gives you hope? I can, And let me start by saying, often to people who have been so overloaded with fear, very rational fear, about how climate change is continuing to affect us and everything that it puts at risk. Too many people these days, hope is a bad word, and when they say hope, when I say hope, they think I mean false hope. The idea that if we just you know, indulge in
some wishful thinking, it's not so bad. Someone will come along and fix it. We don't have to worry about it. That That's what I'm talking about. But that isn't real. Hope, I believe, begins not in positive circumstances, but in a dark place. Hope is the chance, however slim, of a better future. And how do we get to that better future?
Not by burying our head in the sand, like the metaphorical Ostrich and hoping everything will be all right, but rather by striving with all of our might to do everything we can to get there, knowing that our success is not guaranteed, but it is possible, and knowing that is our actions that affect whether we do or hot. So that's what hope is. Hope is the idea that if we really try, can we get a better world?
And I truly believe that we can. I know some of the impacts of climate change are already here today. I study that as a scientist. I know that some of them are also inevitable because of all of the heat trapping gases that are built up in the atmosphere today. But I also know this and This is again what I study. I know that our future is still in our hands. Our choices today will determine the future of
civilization as we know it. So what gives me hope is when I look around and I recognize that climate action is not a giant boulder sitting at the bottom of an impossibly steep cliff with only a few hands on it, and if I add my hand, it will not budge an inch. That's often the way we think about climate action, and that gives us no hope at all. If I do anything, won't make a difference. We think, no,
so why bother. But when we look around and we see all of the cities, all of the companies, all of the schools and seminaries and universities, the tribal nations, the nonprofit organizations, the cities and provinces and countries and states, when we look around and we see all the hands that are on that giant boulder, we see that that boulder is already at the top of the hill. It is already rolling down the hill in the right direction.
It already has millions of hands on it, And when we add our hand to it, it goes a little bit faster. And when we use our voice to encourage others where we work, where we play, where we live, where we worship, where we study, when we use our voice to encourage others to join their hands to the boulder,
it goes even faster. And that's what gives us hope is looking around at all of the other people who are pushing beside us, making a difference in the world, showing us that yes, action is possible, and in that action we find hope. Well, Catherine, hey goo, this has been a marvelous conversation, certainly illuminating, certainly filled with good
ideas and recommendations for each of us. And I hope that as a result of listening to you, that our listeners will do their part to accelerate climate action, which we desperately need to have happened. Thank you so much, Thank you so much for having me. It's so inspiring to hear a scientist say that there is something we can do about climate change. Here are three things I
took from that conversation. First, as Catherine Hayjo says, solving the climate crisis is all about communication, finding common ground with others, and then getting them to engage. Second, we need to remember that climate change is any women's issue. In the developing world, especially women are disproportionately affected by increasingly severe droughts and floods and other disasters. But when you educate to empower women, they can feed their families
and help the environment. Finally, to save the planet, we need systemic change and how does that happen? Catherine reminds us that major movements like women's suffrage came about because millions of individuals and organizations use their voices. They told anyone who would listen that the issue was important to them.
You can learn more about Katherine Hajo's advice in her book Saving Us, a Climate scientists Case for Hope and Healing in a Divided World, and tune in next week to hear about our next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's on Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner Pung. Have a great Day,