Julie Bargmann: Innovative Landscape Architect

I'm in Pittsburgh. That was Julie Bergman talking about the sites and even smells that had inspired her work. Bergman is a landscape architect, and clearly not your typical one. She's famous for taking old and industrial sites, toxic waste dumps and abandoned coal mines and transforming them into corporate headquarters, community art centers, and commercial spaces. I'm aland Ververe and this is senecas on women to hear. We are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history

making women you need to hear. If you visit a site that's been designed by Julie Barkman, you might see lots of trees and beautiful gardens, as well as old bricks, parts of defunct buildings, and rusty railroad tracks. Barkman believes in preserving the history of a place, using it in her design, and when possible, doing it with a touch of humor. Her company, for instance, is called d I

RT Dirt, which stands for dump it right there. For her innovative work, Julie was recently named the first recipient of the prestigious Oberlander Prize, created to bring greater recognition to landscape architecture. Listen and learn why Julie Bergman is one of Seneca's on Women to Hear. I'm speaking today with Julie Bergman, who is one of the top landscape architects whose work truly makes a difference. Julie, welcome, Thank you. You've been called the Toxic Avenger, the Queen of slag.

What do these names mean and what do they say about you and your work? Well, it's funny, I mean, I I take it as people liking superhero heroes, um, you know, so in this case, I think the writers you know, you know, used a pretty sexy name, you know to draw attention to my efforts, um you know, to address toxicity, UM and degradation. Sometimes this don't have to be you know, super bad. UM. I've dealt with

kind of every level of degradation. UM. But I think that the I have to say sometimes you know, when the press would kind of tag me or label me, I would be resistant, But in this case, you know what the heck, I'll strap on a cape or a crown um. Fine. Uh. And but mostly it's it's important since you know, the attention to in post industrial sites was really not very robust UM. So I was happy for UM maybe those names being a way in for folks to be curious, you know about the work. I

think that's really important. If it cause attention to the kind of important work you're doing, it's a great process. Yeah. So you do read claim UM toxic waste sites, heavily polluted areas, old industrial sites and you turn them into usable spaces for the community. Tell us about that? What are you trying to achieve? Well, you know, I want to make one point here UM about uh, the reuse

of these industrial sites. And to say that UM, in the three decades that I've been working on them, early on the environmental engineers well into this date also were the primary actors, you know, and so called what they would call it cleaning up I'm doing little quote air quotes there polluted sites, and I just had to intervene.

I would actually sometimes be very angry at their approaches, which were mostly quick fixes, you know, they you know, hoggin hall is the you know what they call it, which means they just excavate all the polluted soils and haul them away to you know somebody who has to deal with it, um, somebody else's backyard. UM and cap and cover you know, which is importing, right, A bunch of soil from Kudos wear over UM, all of the contaminants.

And I just felt like, wait a second, you know, you're erasing some really important layers you know, of UM, of history. You know, there's a lot of sweat from labor in that soil. UM. And I just wanted to um, make friends with the environmental engineers and say, let's have another set of criteria for the decision making here, UM right, and UH, mostly with the with the aim that those sites were still connected to the community, right, because it's all it's a their memory is embedded, you know, UM

in these sites. So I always felt like it was. I used to say when I wrote really Mad that it was a form of robbery um that was being done. So I knew we could do uh a lot better. And you actually take these toxic waste sites and do it in a way that you just described and transform it for the community. Yeah, yes, it's you know, there's also you know what I kind of battled was that, um, the community also would have this kind of perception of

the sites they were one big toxic blob. And when you do your homework and really look at you know, the flows, the you know, the materials, the byproduct, they aren't one big toxic blob. And um, I found it became super interesting too to think about what I would call curating the site. You know, like what's hot is hot, and that needs to be you know, definitely dealt in

some ways. But there are places that are not hot, meaning you know, toxic, and could aren't those away for the community to get past the chain link fence, you know, and say this, this still belongs to us. It's being treated in a good way over there where it's hot, but we have a way in we can still be invested. And do you consult with the community before you begin projects like this. Oh boy, yes, well, because I mean

their stories, their stories create the baseline. When I would do diagrams with my students, one would be about the industrial flows, right, but the other diagram was constructing the narrative of the social and cultural value of the project. So there were two things with the communities. One was too actually educate them about what the level of toxicity is and to just be very honest with them. That was kind of radical, to like the e p A, you know, to be like, you know, I was like,

no wool over their eyes. They're smart, you know. Um. So, so one was to kind of really be real about the condition of the site. The second was, you know, again their their stories, because those those stories of how they would relate about what the site had meant to them, right, I mean it was their livelihood. I mean, the workers housing was right there, and suddenly the site chain link fence goes up and suddenly the site is an orphan.

So I I would work with the community to you know, tease out how it is that they might restore their relationship with the site again. And are they skeptical about the possibility of transformation, if you will, of the site oh yeah, oh boy. Yeah, And that's what's so important

about UM. You know, the technical part of it, you know, to UM have them and this time, you know, this time with the E p A and with you know, local UM like departments of environmental quality and the environmental engineers to be very clear about like I said, that condition of the site, you know, and how it is that they could enter into it. But it it took that was hard work. Well, you design studio, as they understand, is called d I R T. And as best as

I know, that spells dirt. Why did you choose that name? I well, I have I have a thing about four letter words, unfortunately, uh and acronyms. I love puns, you know, and I don't know. I also didn't want to name the firm after myself like a lot are because the work is bigger than me, you know. And uh, for whatever reason, dirt came to mind, UM because I like dirt and uh yeah so it so it's carried me through UM and it's people remember that. I like that.

They remember. I mean, I don't want to name drop here, but I will say that I worked on a project with Brad Pitt and he like when he first met he came up to me, he goes, I love dirt, Like, okay, you're gonna get it. If the firm, if the firm was named after me, I don't know if you would say I love Julie, you know. So anyway, Well, it's

certainly evocative, it's fun. Well, what's what's already clear in this conversation, as you have a marvelous sense of humor and you're fresh thinking goes into these projects, you're actually have used industrial waste as part of your designs. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that works. Yeah, First of all, I have to say I think the humor has been very helpful in dealing with such serious stuff. I mean I I was careful

with it not to kind of diminish the severity of things. UM. But the other thing was, you know, the other thing you know that humor does is it um It lets you just kind of enter into um, you know, conversations with people, and yeah, it's just work that way. And about the kind of reuse, well, I feel like, right that waste, when you look at it in a certain way, you know, is full of the memory of the place. UM. And you know, if we're all swept, you know, like

the old hog and Hall swept away. I've always worried about erasure. But what I like to do, you know, and I'm thinking about my project, you know at Urban Outfitters, the Billy Navy Yard and one in Dallas where I experimented with you know, what became known as Barney Rubble. Was to look at the idea of transforming that material in such a way that you could read both the history of it but also kind of the future of it.

I mean, the folks at Urban you know, I've got I got some of my most cherished compliments from them, one being that there was evidence that maybe what I was trying to do work. He just said, I feel like this site has always been here, this landscape has always been here, but there's something that points to the future that I'm part of. Oh wow, I was like, bang, Yeah, you did exactly what you wanted to do. Yeah. So you're the first ever recipient of a new prize, the

Cornelia han Oberlander International Landscape Architecture Prize. It's a mouthful, but it's a very very prestigious prize. Yeah, what did getting that prize mean to you? Well? I was pretty

blown away what it meant to me. I mean, I feel like and I said this to the chair of the committee when she called, I just said, I am so glad that the work is being recognized and the way of working is recognized, UM, because I've I mean, you know, I always called you know, Dirt Studio like a nonprofit, just as a joke, but it was truly not profit um, you know, because I was so invested in it being a critical design practice versus a commercial

one where it really had a mission. So I think from what I am getting reactions to is that the gratitude, thankfulness from my being um, I guess a pioneer um. And and actually that is why um it's named you know after Cornelia who was just wow, a powerhouse UM. And so yeah, I think that's it. I'm just appreciate the attention to the work and the attention to way of working well. And it's clearly wonderful recognition of what you've done and what you're trying to do and why

it's so important to our communities. Senecas one hundred Women to Hear will be back after this short break. M Let's talk a little bit about how hard this is well, what was the most challenging site you've worked on? I guess I'm curious. Are there sites that are just too polluted or ugly to be reclaimed? I mean, do you just not are you not able to do certain things? Yeah? Well, first of all, I have to say, I never consider a landscape ugly. Uh. And I mean if you mean

ugly in terms of it's you know, if of it's unrehabitable. Okay, well certainly. I you know, I worked with the e p A on on super fun sites, and as you know, those are the biggest and baddest the ones, especially on the National Priority List, I mean bad and um oh gosh, I mean I I have to say, I um, I worked with on these sites for a while, and then after a while I just had too many bruises from banging my head. You know, the laws, the legislation, you know,

all of those constraints, constraints just we're so difficult. So, you know, I mean, and I could actually say that those those constraints, you know, of that of that incredible process that you have to go through legally is one thing that makes it impossible. And the other thing is the you know how incredibly difficult. The toxicity is, but I have to say I do think that there could be a larger repertoire of ways of approaching those sites.

I was trying to kind of suggest those to the e p A and like some owners of this property, um and you know, so my you know, suggestions of like well, why don't we leave this whole entire area alone, make sure it's not leaching off to the side. But in fact, microorganisms, you know, actually take care of the toxicity, but they take a long time. That is the thing that really gets me is time and everyone's impatience. Yeah, and probably the skepticism is still there, is this ever

going to get finished? And are they really going to do what they said they're going to do? Sure? Absolutely? And then what's it like when the community gets to see this extraordinary change? Oh man, I mean, you know, similar to what I was like saying earlier. You just watch them, you know, give it a big hug again,

you know. I mean when I worked on the it's the Vittondale project, old coal mine in southwestern Pennsylvania, and you know, all the generations right of the workers were living right there, you know, So when it became the park um with this passive treatment system incorporated within it.

There are stories of grandfathers just talking about working on that site because they were taking a walk and they were seeing they were seeing both the legacy of pollution, but they were seeing the future of regeneration and that they that they are part of that. It's a beautiful thought. It really is. Gives you goose bumps, Yeah, it does.

Let's go back to your childhood for a moment. What was your growing up like, did you think you'd ever become a landscape architect and what was that moment when you knew exactly what you wanted to do? M hmm. Well, I grew up in a very typical post war neighborhood

outside New York City, and it was absolutely wonderful. And I often tell the story about how I remember this maybe perverse attraction I had while we were eight kids in the station wagon driving on the New York you know, the Jersey Turnpike, looking at the refineries, and I loved it. I loved them. I just was fascinated by that landscape. But you know, I think that just kind of like I absorbed that and then it really kind of wasn't present although you know, I went to undergrad um in Pittsburgh,

which I love that city. UM love it and uh it actually used to still smell of the steel mills. I'd come down and you know, out of my apartment and go oho, okay, I'm in Pittsburgh and uh but it's a great transformative place. And when you think, okay, we're able to do the right but I have I do have to say. I always remember that I met the mayor, Tom Burpy, uh and I just was like we had a conversation about how we took away too much slag. You know, it was almost right, it was

almost cleaned up a little too much. You know. It's like you know, so you know, you know, but but it was Uh. After after undergrad I art school. I always talked about how I was in my black hole period and uh, I just really didn't know what to do until I I suddenly somebody said landscape architecture. I said, what what is that? You know? And I found that it's the perfect combination of know of of art, of science, you know, of of being engaging the public, you know.

So I just was like, boom, that's it. I'm there. I am wonderful so you're I think the first woman working in the contaminated United States. As we say, did you face any special challenges because you were a woman doing this? And why do you think it's important to have a woman's perspective in this field? Well? Yes, it

was certainly, um, completely male dominated. Um. And you know, but I have brothers, so if that doesn't bother me, so um, you know, I mean I I sometimes don't make a big deal of it, um, so that it's kind of more comfortable. But you know, I it was the case that the engineers and folks were skeptical and when I just kind of in a way quietly. I don't do things quietly, but like just assertively, but just um respectfully. The important thing here was to show that

you knew what they were dealing with. I mean, I dealt with the head of environmental operations at Ford and he basically said, you know, hey, I've got the e p A has a gun to my head, you know, and I just was like, yikes, you know. So that's where you know, I had to do my homework and understand the legislation. And then an environmental engineer was saying blah blah blah, blah and the coke works, and they I go, okay, coke works, and I would get this

completely uncomprehensible flow diagram about making coke. But then I would spatialize it and they'd be like, oh okay. So there was I think in this case, and maybe you know, if a guy was doing what I was doing, it had to do the same thing. But I think there's there's that kind of other level of skepticism to move past. But I think there is might be a level of say the community seeing another person, in this case, a woman other than a bunch of white you know, environmental

engineers speaking with them, you know. So I think it it for them, it you know, for the community and for you know, clients I worked for. I like to think that it broadened their perspectives um and that I've reached audiences in a certain way by being a woman. Well, and half of these communities are populated by women, so you must have made them feel a tad more comfortable,

if you will. Well, I I talked about their you know, role in the work, which is usually invisible, but no, man, they were, they were, they were working hard, but it was just happened to be outside the coal mine. Well, so, in addition to all the things that you've been doing that we've been talking about, you teach at the University of Virginia. Our students drawn to your courses, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about their reaction.

What surprises you about about the students today. Well, this question makes me remember some of my early seminars. I've been at uv A for thirty years or something, but in my early seminars I would actually show them a lot of the photographs of artists like Richard Misrach, you know, of industrialized polluted sites that their whole you know, the whole bevy of David Hansen, Martin Pierre going, and you know, it was funny. Their reaction was, yeah, so that's our world.

I'm like, oh, okay, And then I'd say, you know, I was like, would you like to do something about it. Let's you know, let's really research what's you know behind that photograph? And they loved it. And selfishly, I have to tell you my teaching has absolutely supported not financial, well, actually it is um my, you know, the work, you know, the students research and curiosity was unbelievable. So every time

I did a studio I did. UM, I picked a subject that I didn't know very much about, and you know, a different one will say every year. So like I started with of course dump UM about landfills, and I think the students were very excited that I was learning with them. You know that we were like we're almost like an you know, a design office, you know that we would uh just venture into these things. And they

loved the places we would go, you know. I mean, I mean, you know, who doesn't love strapping on protective clothing, you know, so uh, you know, steelmaking and robeling. You know, just we had really fantastic adventures. And they are the ones that the students are the ones that really helped develop this way of spatializing UM. You know, the the contaminants UM and you know, combining that, like I was saying earlier, with the community history UM and to wonder

about how how would those two UM come together? Well? And I would imagine that what you just described as empowering for the students because they actually get to do something that brings about change. You know. I think so many students want to be part of that today, and you enable them to be. I like to think so you know, because I'm just like, come on, you guys, you know, come on over here and get mad with me.

But also let's get creative together with this stuff. And I'm I'm so I do have to say, I'm so proud of you know, so many of my students that you know, we're out there in the world and they're they write me and they're working on these projects. I mean this, you know, this work now is not marginal for our discipline. You know, it's it's it's pretty close to center. Um. And you know, and my students serve the ones that are they're they're you know, happily equipped

to address them. And how rewarding is that? Ha ha ha, it's so rewarding. Well, the clock is not our friend, uh, and it's winding down. And let me just ask you as we conclude this wonderful conversation. Um, these are challenging times. I don't think anybody would question that statement at a time that everything is questioned. But what gives you hope? Mm hmm. Well, you know, I mean, it's a very basic thing, but it's a profound thing to say that.

It's amazing to me that people, you know, and I say, when I say people, it's like from mayors you know, to women on the street are aware of the environment, and um, you know, they may not be acting upon this awareness, but I think slowly but surely they will, and um my students will help with that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us, and really, more importantly, thank you for what you do. It's really

been a pleasure to hear about it. And Julie Bergman, may you continue to do this for a long time. It's terrific. Thank you, Thank you, ambassador. What a great way to look at the world. It's so inspiring talking to Julie Bergmann. Here are three things I took from that conversation. First, when we create something new, we need to remember what came before. Just paving over the past is, as Julie says, a form of robbery. Second, any project gets better when it takes into account the opinions of

people who live near it. Whenever she undertakes a design, Julie seeks input from the community. She asked them what they remember, what the site means to them. Finally, like Julie, we can take hope from the younger generation. Julie's students recognize that the world is full of problems, but they are ready to take on the challenge of fixing them. Tune in next time to hear about our next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's one hundred

Women to Gear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG Have a Great Day.