Now, I think those of us who have been involved in politics is to say get in there. Yes, there will still be sometimes when you are treated differently or lesser simply because you're a woman. But the only way of us busting through that is for more women to go into the system. The more women that come through, the easier it gets. The more women who go in, the more women who get there, the bigger the change
we make. That is Julia Gillard, the first woman to serve as Prime Minister of Australia and a fierce advocate for equality, education and women's leadership. I'm the land Vere and this is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We're bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women you need to hear. Today we're speaking with Julia Gillard. Her time in office as Australia's Prime Minister from two thousand and ten to two thousand and thirteen
transformed that country's political landscape forever. Being a female first is never easy, especially when you have to deal with overt sexism. That led Julia Gillard to give one of the most memorable speeches in Australian history. That happened in two thousand and twelve when she spoke before Parliament and called out the sexism and double standard faced by women in public and professional life. Julia Gillard continues to make
an impact on public life. She is the chair of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College, London, and she also chairs the Global Partnership for Education, which seeks to strengthen education systems worldwide and get more children into school. Let's listen and learn why Julia Gillard is one of Seneca's on women to hear. So, Madam Prime Minister, it's a delight to have you with us today, A great pleasure to be with you. I wonder if you
could tell us briefly about your personal history. Was there a defining moment in your life that perhaps helped you become a future prime minister? Because it is quite an extraordinary accomplishment. Needless to say, well, thank you for saying that. My history is that of a migrant family. Australia is different to the US. You don't need to be born in Australia to end up Australian Prime Minister. I was actually born in Wales in the United Kingdom. My father
grew up in a coal mining village. He left school at fourteen. My mother grew up in Barrie, which is a dock area in Wales, a lots of ships and shipbuilding and the like, and she too drifted away from school during her teenage is They actually both ended up in the police force, got married and decided to migrate to Australia when my sister was seven and I was four. So I grew up in a very suburban Australian home in Adelaide. My dad went on to train to become
a psychiatric nurse. My mother was a cook in an aged care facility. But they were very regretful that they hadn't had an opportunity to finish their education, so they always taught my sister and I to aim high. And I guess the pivotal moment of my life in terms of choosing politics, came when I got to go to
Adelaide University to study law. In the second year there, the government engaged in some big cutbacks to education, and coming from my family background, I thought this was really wrong, that everybody had the right to a great quality education, and so I got involved in a campaign to change
the government's mind and we did have some success. They backed down on some of the cutbacks, not all of them, but that swept me up into student politics and from that I got more and more involved in the Labor Party and then by the time I was moving from my twenties into my thirties, I decided that I would like to go into politics and have the power to make a difference. And that, in a nutshell is my story. Well it's a wonderful story. And you did aim high,
there's no doubt about it. And I love the fact that you got engaged in your college years and really in the events and issues of your time, and that's been the case ever since. It's an extraordinary story. When you were elected Prime minister, that happened I think in two thousand and ten you faced truly incredible sexism by any definition. In fact, you gave a speech in the
Parliament calling out sexism and the double standard. That speech was voted the most unforgettable moment in Australian TV history. Why did you make that speech and what was the result? That was a speech really born of frustration. I mean, with the benefit of hindsight looking back on my time as Prime minister, I made a big error in terms
of calling out sexism and misogyny. I assumed when I became Prime Minister that the maximum reaction to me being the first woman, both good and bad, would happen in the early months of my prime ministership, and then it would sort of wash through the system and it would be back to politics as usual, noting of course, that politics as usual in Australia is a pretty robust thing. What I actually found is the longer I was Prime Minister,
inevitably the government made controversial decisions. Some people were happy, some people weren't. The longer I was there, the tougher the political times, the more or gender came to the four And so it was, you know, in my second or third year as Prime Minister that I was more likely to be referred to as a bitch or a witch, or a menopausal monster or any of the other insults
that got flung around than in the early days. And the trouble with not having called it out early is pointing to it then led people to think, Oh, she's got mixed motivation. She's only pointing out sexism now because the government's in trouble and she's trying to distract from
that trouble. What's come to be known as the misogyny speech was actually very much the product of a particular parliamentary day where because of a set of circumstances in the Parliament, I knew that the opposition would be trying to challenge me on sexism. Their case was that I had supported a man to become Speaker of the House of Representatives and he had subsequently been shown and to
have sense some very sexist text messages. Now, the fact I couldn't have known about those messages at the time I supported his appointment wasn't going to get in the way of this parliamentary attack. And you know, that did bring out in me a real sense of frustration that, after everything I had tolerated with a kind of stiff, stiff upper lip and a set jaw, now I was going to be accused of sexism. And that gave me a real sense of cool anger, and I think it
shows in the speech. In Australia, the reaction to the speech in the Canberra Bubble was very much about the political play of the day, but more broadly in the Australian community, it was seen for what it was, one woman standing up against sexism, and of course I'm delighted that that speech continues to make its way around the world and women still talk to me about it wherever
I go. Well, you know, you don't have to be in Australia to deal with these kinds of issues and politics, and you and I both know how difficult it still is for women to take their rightful place in elective office. But I'm sure this will continue to be that most unforgettable moment in terms of what you said that day. Now you mentioned early on and talking about your story, your commitment already to education for all, and I know you have brought your considerable leadership to education to this
day when you chair the Global Partnership for Education. How are we doing. Have we closed the gender gap in in girls education, at least at the primary level around the world, because that's been a very difficult challenge. Needless to say, I would love to be able to say to you, yes, we've closed the gap, but unfortunately I can't. We have made huge progress and if I look at the work of the Global Partnership for Education, we work in nearly seventy countries around the world and as a
result of the work we've done. Since the early two thousand's, eighty two million more girls are in school. Primary school enrollment has in fact increased by sixty five percent, so that's a big jump. And three quarters of the countries we work with have achieved gender parity in school completion rates. But three quarters is not one d percent and we're talking about primary school. By the time we look at
secondary school, the figures are much more disturbing. Even though those primary school figures are pretty shocking, it's even worse in secondary school. So in many countries in Africa, for example, the chance of a girl completing twelve years of schooling is one in ten. Only one intend girls will get through. So we've got a huge amount of work to still do to make sure that every girl and every boy
on the planet gets a quality education. But of the children missing out now the most marginalized, we know that they are disproportionately girls, and COVID has had just a terrible impact, hasn't it. We keep hearing and reading about the number of girls who having left school during this
period when schools have closed, etcetera. May never return and that will just be a tremendous setback for them for their families for their communities, because it's such an incredible investment, development investment to make education of a girl that's absolutely right.
COVID is having a very big impact. We know from earlier epidemics like a Bowler that when schools close for health reasons and then reopened sometime later, that the most marginalized children, particularly girls, never make the return to school. They end up married off early, or they end up in child labor, or they end up in a pregnancy situation outside marriage, whatever it is, they just don't make it back to school. And so we are all focused at the moment trying to make a difference to that.
For example, the Global Partnership for Education has dedicated half a billion US dollars to try and to help countries maintain educational continuity now but also ready schools for reopening and reopening with the full complement of kids, making sure
that everybody gets back to school. But the reality is the resources available are not equal to the task, and we are also worried that education will kind of lipped down the list as a priority in the days post the pandemic, people will turn to investments in their health care systems, which of course they should, they will be worried about what's happened to their economies, and the risk
will be that education misses out. In all of that, we're certainly advocating that as tough as times are, we have to keep increasing investments in education, because the evidence is crystal clear that the best investment we can make in the future is in girls education. It makes a difference to everything, to health, to peace and security, to the size of economies if we keep investing in girls.
You're right, it's such a tremendously effective investment and it would be just a huge setback for the world, not just for the girl and her family, if the progress that has been made as turned back. So keep up your great efforts in this respect. I know. In another respect, you've recently published a book on women and leadership, and you've done so with Angosiokanjo Yahwala, who was the former Finance Minister of Nigeria and former Managing Director of the
World Bank of formidable leader in her own right. Your book, I I know, is already on the bestseller's list in Australia. I assume it will be published soon in North America so we can all have ready access to it and uh, perhaps you can tell me when the pub date is in in North America as well as a little bit
about the book. Why did you write it? I know that you interviewed a number of women leaders from around the world for it, uh, and it would be interesting to know the kinds of people you interviewed and what you intend for it to do for the reader. How can it be beneficial? Our book is making its way around the world, which is tremendously exciting. It's being published in the UK, It's being published in Africa, and it will come to North America at the start of next year.
So at the publication date will be towards the end of January. My motivation in writing this book and working with and goes to do it really stems from my experiences as Prime Minister. I left the Prime ministership with these questions whirring around in my brain about my experiences. You know, I was constantly asking myself how much of this is me? How much of it is the temper of the political times in which I governed, and how much of what happened happened simply because I'm a woman?
What is the gendered bit? And my intrigue with that question has led me to working with King's College, London to create a global Institute for Women's Leadership. And then it led me as and Goes and I met each other in various parts of the world, me as the chair of the Global Partnership for Education, her as the Chair of the Global Vaccine Alliance. It led the two of us to constantly talking about women and leadership. We were both intrigued, both trying to figure out about our
own experiences how much was gender. So we decided to write a book which was different in format from anything that we had seen available. We wanted to bring the best of the global research about women and leadership, but we wanted to test that research against lived experience, and so we interviewed eight leading women from politics around the world.
Women who were still in office, like Prime Minister just Into Our Deurn in New Zealand, Prime Minister Ernest Sohlberg in Norway, and women who have been at the top of politics, including of course Hillary Clinton, Prime Minister Theresa May in the UK, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf who was President of Liberia, Joyce Bander who was President of Malawi, Michelle Bachelet, who was President of Chile, and we also interviewed Christine Lagarde, who headed up the International Monetary Fund, so a global
array of women, and we were saying to them, these are the hypotheses we've come up with based on the global research. Does this live in your life? How are you experiencing it? And out of all of that we drill out what we call some standout lessons for men, for the media, for everyone, but particularly for women who are on their own journeys towards leadership in whatever walk of life that is. We've tried to give some very practical tips to be forewarned and for or armed against
the continuing discrimination that women. Advice sounds like an absolute must read. It's wonderful that you and Agosi have come together to do that. Senecas one hundred women to hear, will be back after the short break. I wonder, without telling us everything that's in the book, do women lead differently?
I know there's been so much conversation and notice of those few heads of government, heads of state m who are in power today UH, and conversation about the exceptional job they have been doing in terms of confronting COVID and UH informing their their fellow citizens and proceeding in a way that's made a huge difference. So do women lead differently? I think this is quite a complex question.
In the book, we look at the neuroscience. You would be aware of all of this stuff that's been written over decades now about men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and our brains are quite different. We have a very clear eyed look at all of that and conclude at the end of it that most of it's neuro sexism, not neuroscience, that men's and women's brains aren't
inherently different. But we then go on to examine how we are socialized, you know, from the very earliest days when it's pink for girls and blue for boys, when a boy who's organizing a game in a playground is seen as a natural leader and a girl is seen
as little miss bossy boots. We work our way through all of that and say, look, whilst our brains aren't inherently different, we are socialized differently, and women are socialized is to put the needs of others first, to be a good team player, to not be too commanding and controlling.
We then look at the research and the experience of women leaders about how they navigate their leadership, and each of them said to us, and the research says this very clearly, that in order to be accepted as a leader,
they needed to weave together strength and empathy. They couldn't simply come across as many men do, as commanding and controlling, because if they were like that, they would have been viewed as unlikable, not our kind of woman, offending against gender stereotypes, and people wouldn't have supported them for leadership. So they needed to weave in what people see as the traditional female trait of empathy. I think that combination of strength and empathy has come to the fore now
as the world faces this dreadful pandemic. People do want to know that their leaders have got the toughness to get them through, but they also want to know that leaders are hearing their cries, that they understand that people are in pain, that they're anxious, that they are very uncertain about what the future holds for them. Many of them are unwell, many of them are grieving the loss
of a family member. And I think women leaders around the world, with this combination of strength and empathy have done very well in responding to these times. My eyes have also been drawn to a piece of research from the UK where development economists looked at the pandemic response across the full a hundred and ninety odd countries and they compared nations led by women to comparable nations, and they ended up concluding that the women are doing better
because they reacted more quickly to the virus. They engaged in quicker lockdowns and other forms of restrictions to try and control the pandemic in their country, and the researchers can't quite forensically tell why that is. It might be that women are socialized to be more risk adverse. It might be that women are more prepared to listen to advice rather than bluster and say that I know better
than anybody else. But that is what they're saying has happened during that this pandemic, and I think that's a pretty interesting finding, very interesting and and really comports with what you said you found in working on the book as well. Well. I'll have to rush out and get the Women and Leadership when it's available, because it does
sound very much like a must read. You had mentioned also your work on women's leadership at King's College, London, and I wonder, you know, if you look at the data that exists on political participation, but app between men and women's political participation is still quite significant, in fact, one of the largest gaps compared to education, healthcare, economic participation. Even why is it so difficult for women to break into political leadership? Are the odds just act against them
or is there something that holds us back? I think once again, there's a mix of factors. I mean, basically, when you look at politics around the world, whether it's my nation or your nation or anywhere else. Historically, because politics has been about men and men's lives, it's also been about men's power structures. So unless political parties do something big to try and open up those power structures
to women, they can stay pretty closed. Here in Australia, my political party, the Australian Labor Party, which is the Democrat equivalent, in the early ninetees adopted an affirmative action rule to try and push the number of women who were representing Labor in parliament and it has really really worked. You know, in the nineteen nineties, if you'd looked at the National Parliament, the Labor team was about fourteen percent women,
So dreadful. Now it's basically fifty percent. So this sort of structural solution has been very effective, but in many parts of the world that kind of solution hasn't been engaged in yet. And then there's just the way political lives spin out. I mean, politics is all consuming, incredibly hard work, often involving constant travel over long distances, and not much has been done to accommodate work and family life.
Some things have happened, but nowhere near enough. And I think many women, particularly in the family formation stage, say to themselves that it just could come together for them, which is why an example like Jacinder Dern being the second woman to have a baby while leading a nation is just so important. And then thirdly, I think women see the treatment of other women in politics and they
see that it is still so sexist. So much happens negatively simply because it's a woman who's in the political sphere. And when we reflect on things, for example, like what happened to Hillary Clinton during her campaign, it's just clear, absolutely clear, that so many things happened simply because she was a woman. And I think women can have one
of two reactions to that. They can get mad and that anger can propel them into putting themselves forward for politics or supporting another woman who does, or they can get discouraged. And a really big thing for all of us now, I think those of us who have been involved in politics is to say, get in there. Yes, there will still be sometimes when you are treated differently or lesser simply because you're a woman. But the only way of us busting through that is for more women
to go into the system. And the heartening news there, I think, and it comes out very clearly in the discussions we had around the book, is that the more women that come through, the easier it gets. You know, just cinder our Dern is crystal clear that she is having a different time in New Zealand because she is the third woman to lead that country. It's a very
different experience than being the first. So that should give us heart that the more women who go in, the more women who get there, the bigger the change we make. So true. And you know, and you think about the decisions that are made in elective office and how they affect all of the people, men and women, how critically important it is to have women's experiences, talents, and perspectives brought to that decision making process. So hopefully more and
more will come forward. I think you will agree, as you've said that role models make a difference, and if it becomes more comfortable for larger numbers of people, Uh, it will be that much more possible. I want to end on gender equality today, and what brings me to the question is the fact that we're marking the twenty five anniversary of that Fourth World Conference on Women that took place in Beijing. Women's rights are human rights. Indeed,
we've made progress. Uh, there's a lot more progress to be made, surely. UM. And I wonder, because you've been part of discussions and high level convenings focus on this topic, and how do we go forward? UM? What your views are? What do you see as the biggest challenges yet for gender equality, and how do you see the future? What are some of those really compelling issues that we're going to have to confront It certainly is an important ear twenty five years on to reflect on the Beijing speech.
And I know, Milan you were so involved and you were actually there, but it seems incredible now that twenty five years ago when Hillary Clinton said women's rights are humans rights, human rights and women's rights, that kind of the world went mad, whereas now I hope we would all say that that's a self evident and obviously true statement, and we have made a lot of progress. But as I look forward, I think we have to double down
on solving the girl's education challenge. That's just the foundation and stone for all else. I think in the post covid era, and by that I mean when we have the ability to deal with the health issues, hopefully through a vaccine, but we are still left with the economic issues, I think that there's a moment of opportunity to rebuild economies in a way that is better for women, and that's something that we need to focus on right now
in a planning sense, but in an implementation sense. In the years before us, what the pandemic has done has reminded us of the value of caring work. Who has got us through as a society this pandemic is those who work in caring professions, disproportionately women who has who have suffered in the economy, well, those with casualized and insecure work have suffered the most, and they are disproportionately women.
The jobs lost have been lost by women, mainly, and yet at the same time we've also had for those who do office style work, we've had a big quick lesson in how we can work virtually. And I'm hoping that we can take all of that with us into the future and say, what is a better, fairer and more flexible way of running our economies which would make
a real difference for gender equality and diversity generally. What can we build in as we rebuild that would be better for women and better for people who are disadvantaged in current economic structures. Its third, I think we have to keep pushing on this issue of women's leadership. Role models are important. Encouraging aspiration amongst girls and young women
is important. There's a fan hastic study in India which shows that girls who grow up in a village that has a female leader don't don't just have bigger aims for their life, they actually study harder today because they can see a future for themselves. So in terms of women's equality, women's leadership and role models really matter. And I also think we've got to be pushing the boundaries
on gender stereotyping. We're not going to get to true equality if people still put women and men in gender specific pigeon holes and expect them to behave the way we've traditionally seen what it is to be a woman and what it is to be a man. I think until we get all of that sexy stereotyping out of the back of our heads, then we won't hit an era of genuine equality. Well, may we be up to the task. Thank you so much for that call to action. Uh and I hope we all come together individually and
collectively to do all that we can. Thank you so much, Julia Gillard, the former Prime Minister of Australia. You've been leading the way, you continue to lead the way. We're so grateful for all that you are doing on education, on women's leadership, and so much more. And may your book continue to be a best seller, not just in Australia but the world over as it becomes available to readers everywhere. Thank you very much. It's been a lot.
I always get so energized talking to Julia Gillard. She's the best argument you can have for getting more women into leadership. Three things from that conversation resonate with me. First, Julius famous speech for Parliament. It's known as the misogyny. Speech shows just how important it is to call out unfairness whenever and wherever it occurs. Her blistering words denouncing the double standard inspired women around the world to see
what moves so many women watch your speech on YouTube. Second, when you get angry over sexism, Julia suggests using that anger, women, she says, can channel their energy by getting involved in politics or by supporting other women who do. Finally, Julia reminds us why it's vital to have women in leadership, but that also means that government and institutions will have to accommodate the reality of women's lives, including the fact
that women are still mostly responsible for raising children. Be sure to watch for Julia's valuable book, Women and Leadership, which will be published in the United States early next year, and tune in next Tuesday to learn about our next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's on Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I
Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG. If you like what you heard on the show, rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. We hope you'll join us for our next episode of one hundred Women to Hear, where we can all listen, learn and get inspired. Have a great day.