Eleanor Roosevelt: A Most Remarkable First Lady

of anti lynching laws. I've heard many people say that they didn't have much use for Franklin, but they voted for him just because he was married to Eleanor and they had faith that she would make the right decisions when she could. That is historian Betty Boyd Coroll talking about Eleanor Roosevelt, one of the most extraordinary first ladies

this country has ever known. From the nineteen thirties through the early sixties, Eleanor Roosevelt was a vigorous champion for social justice and equal rights for women, for African Americans, for the poor, for working people. I'm a land Ververe and this is Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. We are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women. You need to hear. The wife of one President Franklin, Delana Roosevelt, and the niece of

another Teddy Roosevelt. Eleanor had enormous influence on policy, known as FDR's Eyes, Ears and Legs. During the Depression, she traveled across the country meeting with ordinary citizens and advocating for relief programs. After World War Two, she was a prime mover behind the U n s Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That landmark document has become the basis for constitutions of countries around the world. Our guest today is Betty Boyd care L, a leading expert on American first ladies.

Her books include Lady Burton Lindon First Ladies, Martha Washington to Michelle Obama, and the Roosevelt Women. Let's listen and learn why Eleanor Roosevelt is one of Seneca's one Women. To hear Well, I'm really excited to be here today with Betty Boyd Carole, who is an authority on first ladies, and we are going to be discussing one of the great first ladies, Eleanor Roosevelt today. But Betty is the author of several books and and a wonderful authority and resource.

So Betty, welcome, thank you, good to be here. Eleanor Roosevelt was so many things. She was a diplomatic, human rights crusader, a politician, one of the most remarkable, if not the most remarkable first lady. What do you think she is best remembered for and how would you discus ribe her impact? Well? I think how she is being

remembered depends on the age group. For a certain age group, I think Eleanor Roosevelt will always be the first Lady, an amazing first lady in the job much longer than anyone had ever been, and did more with it than anyone had ever done. But I think for younger Americans probably she's remembered for her post first lady years, when she became really first lady of the world with her work at the United Nations UH the Declaration of Human Rights. So it depends on the age group. But certainly she's

one of the most remarkable American women ever produced. So let's perhaps start at the beginning so we can get to understand her a little better and peel what she was up against. She didn't start out as a crusader, she didn't start out the way that history remembers her today. For the most part, what was it like for women of her time and and how was she as a person. She didn't have all the confidence in the world, as

I remember. No. Eleanor Roosevelt certainly had one of the most disastrous childhoods of all time, probably losing both her parents before the age of ten, also a brother, growing up in really very tragic circumstances. But she went away to school in England, uh in a school that her aunt had attended previously. I think she gained enormous self confidence there, partly because of the way she was treated by the school. It was a different atmosphere, so she

gained some confidence there. And by the time she came back to the United States in nineteen two, her uncle was President of the United States, and I think she began to see the women in her family in a slightly different light. Certainly they were important to her development, I think, although not much credit is given to them.

Remember that at the time Theodore was president, event his sister, his older sister Bamy, her real name was Anna, but everybody called Obami, lived right there in Washington, and Eleanor said she thought that Theodore never made an important decision without talking it over with Bammy first. So Bannie had tremendous political aptitude. She was interested in how issues were resolved, and I think I think that made a difference to Eleanor.

I think she saw that the other aunt was also politically involved, a friend of senators, and actually later became the first woman to give a nominating speech at a major party convention for president. So she came back from England with already a bit of self confidence, and then I think being exposed to those women in her family, I think that helped she had some social conscience then. I mean, we know that she went to work briefly. When I say work, I mean a volunteer work at

a settlement house here in New York. And what they it at the settlements was she taught dancing or whatever needed to be taught. But she also made visits to homes. And it's said that when Franklin accompanied her to some of the very impoverished homes, dilapidated housing, terrible conditions, he said, I didn't know people lived like that. So she had some social conscience then and perhaps exposed him to one of his first well he said it was his first

exposure to that kind of living. So that's how she started out. But the real change, I think comes later, and I think we can point to World War One for for making that change. Now, what do you mean by that? We can point to World War One because she wasn't the crusader that she became at the end. She was always involved and as you said, she was pointing out to her husband some of the really difficult ways in which people were living, even before he was president.

And of course she did that in spades once he was president. Uh So, what made her into the crusaders she became ten years or so after her marriage. She was pretty much concerned with family. She gave birth to six children in ten years. One of them died, but five lived to adulthood. It was after that, after nineteen sixteen, the children were born and on their way. And I have to say that even before that, when Franklin was elected to the state legislature in nineteen ten, and at

their home there were meetings of Democratic leaders. So she was involved in political discussions. It just that she wasn't. She didn't speak out in the way that she did later.

But in nineteen thirteen they moved to Washington because Franklin became assistant secretary of the Navy, and they lived in a house, uh near Um the aunt that I mentioned earlier ban me, And when the war started, Eleanor was right down there volunteering at the canteen, talking to soldiers going off the war, dealing with the wounded who came back. And I think it opened her eyes to what needed to be done and what she could do. And it's really after that, after the war that we see her

getting involved. Of course, then uh in Franklin was on the Democratic ticket as vice president. She campaigned, but just not the way we think of campaigning, not giving speeches. She rode beside him on the train, you know, and wait that sort of thing. And then, of course when he gets polio in one she's really pushed into the limelight in a way that she wasn't before. In other words, I think Louis Howe was instrumental in getting her too to travel to be the eyes and ears for Franklin

when his mobility was limited. So it's really the war, Franklin's polio that initiates her as a major activist. And how did she feel about the women's suffrage movement? Would we describe her as a feminist in those days? Oh? The suffrage question, I think it people of our time have probable understanding why women like Eleanor Roosevelt and her aunts, remember the aunt that was advising the president, They weren't

interested in the vote at all. It was it was common to women of that class and time, and I think they felt that they really had enough to do with politics without voting. You know, if you're having dinner with the president or the your senator, you didn't really feel you had to vote. You were speaking your mind right to the top. So her aunts didn't favor the vote, and she really didn't favor the vote until I think we can say after New York gave the vote, I

shouldn't say gave the vote. The women achieved the right to vote were enfranchised by nineteen seventeen. I mean the the election of nineteen seventeen in New York. People voted that women should be allowed to vote, so after that they could. I think that maybe gave a little spur of energy to a movement. So now we're going to fast forward and her husband is elected president and she enters into that very difficult position a first lady, one that comes with no job description those days. I think

she may have had one staff. If that but you're gonna let us know, and she turned out to be perhaps the most activist first lady. How did she feel about moving into the White House and did she have a sense of what would be required of her or how did all of that evolve. Eleanor Roosevelt hated the idea of moving into the White House. She said she wanted to keep her teaching job. Remember, she had seen

her aunt in the job. Theodore's wife, Edith, had had the job almost eight years, so it was mostly although I think Edith has been a little underestimated. I mean, after all, Edith did have some ideas about how to popularize the presidential family by hiring a secretary that gave out autographed photographs of them and so forth. So I

think maybe Eleanor underestimated her aunt Edith. But she definitely didn't want that hostessing job, where most of it was just greeting people at the table and not speaking your mind. I don't Edith had a few opinions, but she was very careful about uh telling anybody what they were. So Eleanor definitely did not want to move into the White House. But she did, and she did give up her teaching job and she had a staff, but not what we

would call a staff today. I mean, what's the typical Well, not in this administration, but in previous administrations you would be able to tell us this. It's more like two dozen people are on it at least and then borrowing, as Lady burg Johnson, did you borrowed from other departments? Well, Eleanor's was nothing like that. In fact, it's not even officially entered into the Book of Government Employees, the person

working or the persons working for the First Lady. The first one to really be mentioned officially is Mamie Eisenhower's secretary in the nineteen fifties. But Eleanor did have people working for She had secretaries, she had people volunteering. She had her friend Lourina Hiccock, the journalist, moved in as soon as she went to the White House in nineteen three. So um, she did have a staff. And remember when she got there, she had had a lot of training.

I think if you look at what Eleanor Roosevelt did in the nineteen twenties, you're not very surprised by what she did in the nineteen thirties as First Lady. Because remember, in nineteen she helped write the platform. She was very active in the women's division of the Democratic Party, helping to write the platform. She had a strong network of women friends who were instrumental in many very activists in many organizations. So she'd gained she'd gained confidence, says a speaker,

because she she had confidence meeting people. She had been wife of the governor of New York, so she she didn't come in. I think there are a few first ladies who were as well prepared for the job as Eleanor Roosevelt was in n You know, that's really an interesting comment because we don't think about it that way. We think of all the professional women who have come in since. But she really did come with a lot of experience that was relevant to the way the position

evolved in her doing it. Yes, I cannot think Lady Bird Johnson, of course had more years in Washington, but I think the two of them are probably um the best prepared of any first ladies in terms of their time in Washington and knowing what the job entailed. You know, we talked a little bit about women and getting the right to vote, and another issue that was clearly one in that society was grappling with was the issue of

race relations. And one of her most memorable acts was having Marian Anderson saying at the Lincoln Memorial back in nineteen thirty nine. I think, so, how did all of that happen? Because that was another really extraordinary bit of action on Eleanor's part. It was that was extraordinary. Remember Marian Anderson in nineteen thirty nine, I had a world reputation, but was not permitted to sing in most venues in

the United States. I mean, she was what about forty, she was born about forty in her early forties, a wonderful control co in Europe. She had been praised as a voice that is heard once in a century. And you know, if you go on YouTube and listen to her singing in front of the Lincoln Memorial that day in nineteen thirty nine, you'll understand what they were talking about. It was a remarkable voice. She had had fantastic success

in Europe. So in ninety nine, the plan was to have her sing in Washington, and and the only hall large enough to accommodate what it was thought would be you know, an unbelievable crowd was Constitution Hall, which was of course controlled by the Daughters of American Revolution and they had a policy, a race policy that the audiences were not integrated and certainly not the performers, so they

denied her the right to sing there. And Eleanor got wind of this, and with the Secretary of Interior, and I think Franklin's help, I think it was a broad based appeal, it was decided that she would sing in front of in the Lincoln Memorial on Easter Sunday. And if you see pictures of that on YouTube, I mean that's something like people lined up in front and it's just Marian Anderson upfair with her pianist, this kind of lonely figure in front of this impressive monument, and she

starts singing. It's an unbelievable event. I think what most people don't know is that Eleanor did not actually attend the concert because she felt it would take attention away from Marion Anderson. That's the kind of person she was. Senecas one hundred women to hear will be back after the short break. Well, she made history in so many ways. She also had her radio addresses and we read her columns,

so she was communicating constantly. Her impressions of what was happening in the country, and it was a tumultuous time. It wasn't a tumultuous time. Remember, I always say that she she tops all lists for first ladies. Whether you survey the readers of Good Housekeeping or you ask political scientists to rate first Ladies, Eleanor Roosevelt always comes out

on top. But we remember that she was in the job longer than anybody, as I said before, and also during the Great Depression and World War Two, two of our very low spots in American history. But she knew how to use her time there. I mean, it wasn't

just that she was up against really rough times. You speak about her her writing, she had started out writing articles earlier, and then by nine I think, well she there was some competition with her cousin Alice Roosevelt, who also wanted to write columns, but Eleanor showed her very quickly who could be best at that job. So Eleanor started writing a column December one, nineteen thirty five, and wrote it right up until her death. I mean just

a few weeks before her death. She scaled back to instead of six days a week, three days a week, or something like that. She scaled back. But these my day columns that Americans read, and I've heard people say that their mothers told them o' franklin, he can't be that bad if he's married to her. I mean, people didn't like Franklin at all would read Eleanor's daily columns

and think they had a kindred soul. She also went on the radio issue point out not part of this, I think maybe most people don't know this, but part of her publishing, publishing and her uh speaking on the radio was commercial. In other words, she was paid for it. She was paid pretty well for the radio appearances and in fact made more money than uh Franklin did. Franklin's salary at the beginning was seventy dollars a year, and she was making more than that with her radio speeches.

We probably should talk a little bit about Eleanor's attitude toward money. She um she really liked to be paid for what she did. Now she had an income, she had a family income, and she had her her as a wife of Franklin, she had access to money. But she felt that the money she earned herself was important and she gave it away. I mean she gave enormous amounts to different charities. It wasn't that she spend it, you know, everybody knows she was not a spender, certainly

not on clothes or personal luxuries. So she gave the money away, but she wanted to be compensated for what she did, and she reached out to people in a way that no first lady had ever done. She's not the first first lady to speak on the radio, but she certainly used it more than any of the others ever had and reached more people. And she did press conferences too, didn't she. All her press conferences were and

sometimes they were broadcast on the radio. But the important thing I think about the press conferences is not only that she had them, but that she limited attendance to women, so that newspapers that didn't have a woman on the staff were quickly encouraged to hire one so they could attend Eleanor's press conferences and pick up a little something that maybe had and hit the news rooms before. She really was ahead of her time in so many ways.

You know, I have this image of her on those cargo planes with her wrapped in a blanket, flying to our servicemen during the war. I mean, what an extraordinary thing that she did, at great personal sacrifice to herself, great discomfort, and yet she would go and meet with them, bring back their letters from there to their families, etcetera. Can you talk a little bit about that role that she played. Oh, there are so many stories about and I think you're thinking particularly about the trip to the

Pacific exactly. Yeah, and remember those planes were not very pressurized. I mean it was extremely uncomfortable to do, but she went and she Oh the hours that she spent up early in the morning till late at night, going from bed to bed in the hospitals, talking to men who had been injured. Did they have a letter they wanted to give somebody back home. She would personally see that it got delivered. It was just an amazing thing. Nobody had ever done anything like that, people, no first lady

had ever done anything like that before. So you know, she wasn't a person for comfort. I mean, that was the last thing on her list, it seems to me. And she was a constant nudge to her husband, was she not. Oh, there are many stories about that, and I think that's a very clever partnership they worked out because everybody knew that she was more liberal than Franklin, and on many issues, for example, take anti lynching, the

anti lynching law. Franklin was aware that he could not get anything through the Senate with so many committees chaired by Southern senators. But Eleanor could speak out on in favor of anti lynching laws, and and when people said, can't you get your wife to shut up, he'd just say, oh, I can't do anything about her. So another words, they were pulling people who were four an anti lynching law and appeasing those who were against, you know, in the

same couple. They were working it out very well. I've heard many people say that they didn't have much use for Franklin, but they voted for him just because he was married to Eleanor, and they had faith that she would make the right decisions when she could, and she really had her pulse on the country in terms of

being able to tell him what was happening. Well, that's of course something that she did extremely well, which was to go into poor areas of Appellation, for example, and come back to Washington and tell the stories about how people were living and how there needed to be some

sort of housing improvement in that area. Uh, just those that really goes back, doesn't it to her days in the College settlement when she was going around immigrant households in New York City and she just applied the same measures going from different different areas in the United States eater.

So people said that she got away with that. In other words, people didn't think she was reaching too far because of his limited mobility, because of his being unable to travel, and of course he was he was pushing her on that. Remember the story when she comes back and says, oh, I think they were having a pretty good diet at that prison or wherever she had visited, and he he said, well what did they eat? She said, well,

they ate this and this and this. And he said, well did you go in and look at the pots in the kitchen? And she said no, I didn't do that, and he said, well, that's the real test. So the next time she made sure she looked at the pots in the kitchen. You see, because what she was served out front as an example of what the prisoners were eating maybe or the people in whatever institutions she was visiting, that might not have been exactly what they were eating

from day to day. Self fascinating and what a great first lady. But we remember her too, not just for all of this and so much more, but for what happened after the White House. That's true. You know. It's often told that she met a reporter after Franklin had died in nineteen forty five, and he said, so, what's the story, and she said, those stories over now. But of course it wasn't. She lived another seventeen years when you when you think that's a and was really active

right up until almost the time of her death. In other words, she was supported appointed by President Kennedy to head the Women's Commission. So um, she was active seventeen years and what we most well, I don't know what most people remember her, but I hope it's for the

work with the United Nations. Yes, when she was appointed at the end of nineteen five, so just a few months after Franklin's death and after moving out of the White House, when she was appointed to the U n I think some people thought it was a way to get her out of the country and shut her up right right, But of course she made it to something

really special and worked really hard for two years. I mean, the estimate of the number of people that she interviewed and contacted and um worked on to get them to go along with a declaration of human rights that everybody could agree on. And of course you know the story that when it was finished, one of the senators who had been so negative about her before said, I take back everything I said about her, and believe me, it's been plenty. I'm sure. But let's back up a little bit.

At the u N so so President Truman names her, I think to the General Assembly to be a delegate. What role did she play in the US getting fully engaged as a member, because you leave just celebrated the seventy five birthday of the U N and she was part of all of that. Well. She certainly brought publicity to the idea that the United Nations was something that

the country should be interested in. In terms of her actually pulling people in, she was very strong about the US role in the US being a leader and caring about how this developed from the very beginning. I think back the antipathy many Americans feel towards any kind of international organization, right that, uh, we're somehow the best nation

in the world and we should go it alone. She certainly helped break down that prejudice by saying how important it was to know the rest of the world and to be part of the efforts of the rest of the world. Yes, so she became in many ways a spokesperson, if you will, for why it makes sense and why it matters, and that criticism is still there in the part of many people, issues of sovereignty, etcetera. So again

she was breaking ground. But as you said, it was really what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and that was just an extraordinary accomplishment in terms of what she did beyond those those years in the White House where she was tremendously engaged in so many different ways. So what don't we know about Eleanor Roosevelt. There have been so many works written about her. As you said, she enjoyed an extremely long life. She was participating up until

her last years. But there must be things we don't know about her that you certainly know having spent so many years as an historian unearthing her story. No, I think there's some things about Eleanor Roosevelt we will never know.

I mean, for example, her personal attachments. You know, there's a new book out just now about her life, and um, it was all the ones who went before point out that she had a way of forming close attachments with people who really took advantage of her terribly and and we're not on her side necessarily, they profited from the attachment she had relationships. She was a close friend of some people who were anti Semitic and racist, and you say,

how did she manage that? And if I could sit down and talk with her, that's what I would like to know. How she reconciled why. I think she would say, you keep an open mind. People have a right to make mistakes you but it's always I wish I had that broad minded approach to people who don't agree with me. And also her relationships, remember her relationships with her kids,

We're not great, and yet she made close relationships. She had close friendships, important friendships with other young people who became almost adopted sons. You think of Joe Lash or people like that, And that's a question I would like to talk to her about how she made those friendships and yet had such distant relationships with her own kids. Really fascinating. So if she were alive today looking out at what is happening at home, and around the world.

What do you think her advice would be for these times? Well, you know, she had a streak of optimism. She really thought things would get better, but we have to keep working. You know, she had tremendous energy. I don't think any of us could match her energy, but that was in the family. You know, she would go on four hours of sleep at night and she I could think her she would say, keep working. You know it'll get better, but we just need to keep working. Um. That's really

the model that kept her going. I don't I really when I read the hour she put in how she would turn out a column at two o'clock in the morning, I don't see how she did it, but she would say we could if we keep trying. You don't know if it's in the genes or if it's just pure determinate. Well,

that advice is good for all of us all the time. Uh. And I can't say how wonderful it's been to talk to you today, Betty, and our listeners have an opportunity to dig deeper into all of this because you've been a prolific author, and I hope that they will. But thank you so much for being with us and for making Eleanor that much more proximate to all of us. Oh thank you. I thought I knew Eleanor Roosevelt, but I learned so much from Betty Boyd Coroli. Here are

three things I took away from that conversation. First, Eleanor Roosevelt was able to create change, and she had two great tools, an ability to speak to ordinary, everyday people about their concerns and a strong network of women who were activists and organizations that could help make a difference. Second,

Eleanor backed up her convictions with bold gestures. When black opera singer Marian Anderson was not allowed to sing at the d A R S Call in Washington, d C, Eleanor arranged for her to perform in front of the Lincoln Memorial. Finally, Eleanor had tremendous energy and great optimism. As Betty Boyd Carol tells us, Eleanor always believed that things would get better, but that you have to keep

working on them. You have to keep on trying. Tune in next Thursday to hear about our next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's One Women. To hear Seneca's One hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner Pung. Have a great day in Patt