My mother called up my boss at Turner Construction. Um. Turner is a large national contractor with their main office headquartered in New York City. As she told my boss, my daughter's courting today as she's coming to work for her family firm, that is SHRL mckasick Daniel. And if she sounds proud of her family, well she has good reason. Sherl is the fifth generation of her family to lead what is the oldest minority and women on professional design
and construction firm in the nation, mckayzick and mckasick. Over the years as president and CEO, Shul has taken this company with this long and rich history and made that legacy shine even brighter. I am Sharon Bowen and this is Seneca's one hundred Women to hear. We are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women you need to hear. There was a time when she was younger, when show McKissick thought she wanted
to work somewhere other than the family business. But it's quite a family and quite a business. The company traces its roots back to a slave named Moses mckissic who learned the art of brickmaking. By two thousand, when Show was ready to take the reins, mckisica mccause it was doing well, but she moved it to even higher levels.
By two thousand nineteen, the company was generating fifty billion dollars in revenues, and it has worked on some of the most important projects in the New York area, including at JFK and Leguide Airports in the Berkley Center. Listen and learn why Show mccusick Daniel as one of Seneca's one hundred women to hear m So, Cheryl, thank you so much for joining us. For Chryl, can you tell us what is McKissick and how long has your company been around? So McKissick and McKissick is the nation's old
black owned design and construction firm. We date back five generations to the late seventeen hundreds early eighteen hundreds. However, we did not incorporate until nineteen o five in Nashville, Tennessee. We are architects and we are builders, construction managers, general contractors, and program managers. That sounds like you do a lot. So when did you step into your current role as president and CEO? So I have to go back, um to our history, which I think might be quite interesting
for our listening audience. UM. As I said, the first descendant of our family came here as a slave. His name was Moses m Phisick, and he was taught the trade of making bricks. We believe that he received his freedom around eighteen sixty or eighteen sixty five because he was able to give three hundred and sixty five thousand bricks to a wealthy family in Tennessee named the Cheers family,
and they built their mansion from those bricks. And that mansion is still standing and bears the cornerstone of Moses McKissick the first. Moses mckissick's son, Moses McKissick the second, was a master carpenter um that was a trade back in the day for construction, and he was known for his spiral staircases and gingerbread finishes and homes in the South. But most notably he worked on the Maxwell House hotel right downtown Nashville, Tennessee, where six presidents actually stayed and visited.
He had seven girls and then seven boys, a big family right His first son was Moses McKissick the third, but because he wanted a son. Every time he had a girl. Moses had seven names. He had the names of all the boys that he thought he was going to have. His name is as we As Moses, Henry John Edward Lewis McKissick the third, and his brother is Calvin McKissick. And the two of them are the first black license architects in the country, with license one seventeen
and one eighteen in the state of Tennessee. So if you can imagine two black men going to take their license in the early two that's the whole story. And we're writing a book around that. You should And so the company was then passed down to my father, that's fourth generation, and then my mother took over for several years when my father became ill. And then I have a in working in the company. In nine my mother
called up my boss at Turner Construction. UM. Turner is a large national contractor with their main office headquartered in New York City, and she told my boss, my daughter's quitting today and she's coming to work for her family firm. Okay, so that was gonna be my questions is gonna I was gonna ask you, did you plan to join your
family family's business. But I kind of see how that unfolded. Yeah, you know, um, coming to New York and um, seeing what what black businesses were doing here and black people little hole. I mean, you know, I had a lot of friends who were investment bankers. As you know, I
knew you one of the most prominent attorneys in town. Um. You know, I began to say to myself, why would I be bothered with the company in Nashville, Tennessee, even though it's my family owned business, it is my herit inheritance, UM, and I would be fifth generation because as a young person, you know, you don't see always the value and owning
your own UM. And I can tell you I'm not sure that I would have joined the family business though soon, if my mother had not stepped in and solicited my help. And you know, following her lead has probably been one of the best things I've ever done, because there's the ability to create your own destiny and when you have your own business, and and so I look back, it's been thirty years, thirty one years, and you know, it's
it's it's been a terrific ride. That's amazing. UM. And so I'm not sure I would have done that on my own. I had to be kind of forced. It sounds like it was a good decision in the long run, and especially given that the long and rich history. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. So once you joined, how how did you make your own mark
and execute your own vision for the company? Well, research and understanding that I had a portfolio, but that portfolio really did not apply to New York as us New Yorkers know, we're the greatest place in the world. We don't want to hear from people coming from out of town. We don't, you know, we we have enough of our own here. UM. And so coming from uh Washington, d C. Where I was in school, and then having this portfolio basically from the southeast, UM really only helped me in
deciding what areas I wanted to go and pursue. And I knew that that would be architecture and construction management. And so being a salesperson, I could say, well, we did this work here in the South, but you know,
we know New York is different. But I've been here working all these years, and now I understand, you know, all the idiosyncrasies around construction here in New York City, and so my strategy was to first develop strategic alliances with companies like mine that were much bigger, the Turners, the scanscas, and a lot of those companies are are gone now because they've all been swallowed up, and so too develop strategic alliances with those companies as well as
participate in the newly formed m w b E programs UM. I believe when I first started my business, that was probably year one or two, that the state had an m w b E program and the city was beginning to start. There's with the School Construction Authority. Can you tell us what the m b w E program? I know what it is, but can you tell us what that is and the well that it laid in sort of your decision making. So mwb E stands for Women and Minority Business Enterprises and those are programs um geared
to engage minority and women owned business firms. To be a minority and women owned business, more than fift so of the company has to be owned by a woman or a minority. And over the years, New York State, in New York City and various agencies and now the private sector have set up programs where UM they challenge the A E C community, which is my community and goods and services, to make sure that they hire these
types of businesses. And early on, let's say the goals were you know, ten or five percent of city agencies would go to MWB E firms. That has now grown to UM and so these firms have been very instrumental and leveling the playing field for firms like ours and given us the ability to get started with very little capital UM and very little access quite frankly two decision
makers when it comes to contracts. These programs have given us direct contact with UM city officials and and commissioners UM who make the decisions on you know, most of the contracting community contracting community for a EC and that's architecture, engineering and construction. It sounds like no, is that a great program? But so they given where we are right now with the economy, that would seem to me we
need programs like that more than ever. Yes, And you know what, Sharon, we are seeing now more because what happened over time is there became a disparity within the disparity. So what a disparity study is conducted by an agency, a city, a state to determine first what is the capacity to contract with minority and women on firms? And then UM what the actual goals should be as far as minority and women on firms. So women firms may have a goal, Minority men may have a goal. UM,
minority women may have a goal. And what happened over time is more women businesses begin to get more work, then the minority businesses, and now the disparity studies are
showing a disparity within the disparity. So recently various UM cities like New York UM and the State of New York have started to begin programs targeting black business or Latino business because that is where the disparity, you know lies with the Latino and black female receiving you know, much less work than all the other categories within the
m w B program. So in that regard as a woman not only working in construction but leading a construction company, can you talk a little bit about what challenges that you faced or continue to face UM as an entrepreneur. Early on, it was all about capital. UM. We could not get a lot of credit. UM we we UM had to meet payroll. So how do you pay payroll while you're waiting for your invoices to go through a
New York City or New York's state UMU procurement department. UM. And you know what was interesting is I knew some investment bankers then, and um five investment bankers actually invested in the Kissick. And that's how I really got my business off the ground. They each gave me five thousand dollars and I had it. They gave it to me for six months, and at the end of six months, I gave them six thousand dollars. So back then that was a good return. That's a real good return, it
really is. That's that's that's creative finance. I mean, in particularly, you know, the access to capital. You know, you figured out a way to to solve for that by reaching I guess to your own networks. UM. Some of a lot of women entrepreneurs have probably have done the same thing, because we do know that access to capital has been a big challenge for women entrepreneurs. And you know, again, with the economy being is it is today, this this
this issue is really prominent. I totally agree with that. I mean, you know, as a result of the interests of these investment bankers, I've never forgotten that and what that meant for me. So all along the way I have tried to help firms UM. But recently, about a year ago, a good friend of mine, a black engineer, we started a firm called Legacy Engineering for the sole purpose of giving young engineers ownership and allowing them to be entrepreneurs UM. And I say that because our model
is we are owners of the company right now. We've brought in for young black engineers and in five years returning the entire company over to them and we will exit. And so that's setting up you know, black businesses us for the future, but also mentoring them on how to be business owners. Excellent. Yeah, we just don't do it by ourselves. We've hired consultants to come in and teach
these young men really how to be owners. So hopefully in five years they'll be ready to take it over, because I know I'll be ready to pass it over. I like the name Legacy Engineers to I understand that they need to pass the betime on senecas one hundred women to hear. We'll be back after this short break. You were talking about challenges, and you know we have had to deal challenges. My company has overcome slavery, Okay,
slavery dem crawl. But when it comes to my last thirty years, you know, I think one of the things we deal with and struggle with as a minority firm is people still think that we provide our services are inferior and that they cost more. And you'd be surprised how I still here that, Um that you know we don't have any reach. Um. You know that we're not
thinking on the scale of a larger business owner. Um. And and they're kind of like they can be you know, in your face, or it could just be a microaggression. I mean, it's it comes in so many different ways that sometimes you have to sit and think to yourself, do I even want to deal with that right now? Now? I know that you've Worke done some incredibly impressive projects
along the way. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those projects, and how did you know when to take a risk on a big project and how did you how did you tell like put ones weren't quite the right thing for you? We have had the players are working on some very wonderful projects, iconic projects for New York. Um. You know, we were on the Tapanzee Bridge, Laguadia Airport, um Delta Terminal, Columbia, Manhattanville.
We oversee the m t a's capital program and report directly to the board on every project that's over a hundred million dollars, which is most of them. UM. So I would say we report on somewhere around three hundred projects to the board on a monthly basis. And we've had that contract for ten years UM and so that we are I am blessed to have that UM Because of that contract, we've been able to build a national transit pack and we are working in l A, Florida, Miami, Dallas,
and Chicago. UM so we've been able to expand off of that one project. UM. Risk is a whole another story. I mean, we've taken on projects that we probably shouldn't have and that's the best way to learn. You know, it's a period of time that you know, most of our work was general contracting. We were lumps on bidding it. And you know, in in that environment you can take on ten good jobs and one bad job and go out of business. And so you know, we had our
ups and downs in that area of work. And I think now we've gotten it to where you know, we're we're comfortable with the risk that we take there, but that that comes with experience having been hurt on projects before. You know, our new projects were getting interest from UM the tech world. So UM in the last two months, you know, we've worked with Amazon, We've had several interviews with Apple, and Microsoft has a project coming up, and
so that's exciting. We're seeing a lot of movement. There are K through twelve or higher it all those sectors. UM seemed to be moving even during this you know, COVID period. I was gonna ask a little bit about COVID and we know that a lot of companies have had to pivot their business models and operations due to the pandemic. UM, how has COVID impacted your business and how have you been able to pivot? So it's impacted the the construction industry overall in that we have new policies.
You know, the number of of workers that can be on a site, so you have to work on shifts, the ppe required, you know, the cleaning required. So all these things have a cost um and we're working through that. UM. For our company, a lot of our work is was was deemed central because we do hospitals, UM and infrastructure
work like at the m T a UM. So out of our hundred and forty people, we probably had twelve or thirteen people who were furloughed and most of those have have come back to work, and so you know, we've kind of been blessed through this, but it it has been devastating for companies that are strictly K through twelve UM. The School Construction Authority, all of their work was was suspended. And in the private sector, the entire
private sector was suspended. Office buildings, residential, retail, all those projects were suspended under Governor Como's law. But they're all coming back on online now. At Terminal one, we are the program manager for the new JFK terminal at Terminal one, which is where Carlisle. Carlisle has teamed with Jim Riddles from Loop Capital as well as Magic Johnson Enterprises the build.
Originally it was a six billion dollar terminal. We've now reduced the sculpe somewhat and will build out parts of the terminal later because the airlines are saying they will not be back on line full scale, and this is optimistic till The good news is that we're fighting food through this difficult moment um and being resilient, you know,
particular as New Yorkers were pretty resilient people. UM. You know, as you know, having gone through nine eleven and the number of other prices at this time, knowing what you do know, UM, was the one piece of advice that you got that was crucial to your success or your career path. I would say there are two specific things that I have taken for me. One is out of my grandfather and his brother's book, and that is relationships. Because those they were two men, black men do a
business where there were no m w B programs. Everything that they did was based on some relationship that they had. UM. And the same was true for my father. UM. So building relationships, UM, I think is key. But I also think it's important to think big. You have to think outside of the rim of what you can see. UM.
I think you need to. You know, for me, it was standing in Jersey City looking across the water at huge Manhattan saying to myself, one day, I'm going to be the largest black owned construction company over there over there, because I wasn't even living in Manhattan, and so I, you know, I think having the thoughts um of where you can go. You know, I heard someone say recently the Green Book, which used to tell black people where
they could stay in the South, is really just Airbnb today. Um. And so that's this think that could have been a possibility for the person who came up with the Green Book. Yes, that's that. I like that analogy. So I assume that that your advice to young entrepreneurs who are moving up in their career path. It sounds to me that you would give them that same piece of advice in terms of building relationships and thinking big, any other supposal wisdom
that you would would share with them. You know, it's it's really the truth of the matter is being an entreeur manure has uh, it's ups and downs. You know, it's gonna be an abb and flow um, and they're gonna be some really low periods. It's not always good. And my road that I traveled, I would say I have been working at this for thirty years and it's only been the last five years where I felt like, you know, what's Sheryl, You're fatily at a point where
you feel comfortable. Yes, you're not worried about what's coming around the corner with respect to anything that's in my power. You can stand in your own shoes and talk to anybody about anything in your industry, UM, without feeling you know, nervous or inadequate. And you know you're being recognized in your industry by your others as being a mentor, UM, as giving back to minority firms. UM. And so I'm
just saying it's a journey. It's a journey. It's a journey, yes, but you know it's it's a it's a journey that um, you have navigated it quite well. And I do know about the and downs uh career paths. UM. And you know being positive is really important. So in this moment in time, what makes you optimistic? Well, UM, I think that basically people are good or they weren't good. They want the best. And in this period where you know the ratio woid equalities that other people are seeing, I
mean I think we've been seeing it forever. When I was nine at a friend's house for birthday party, we came outside there was a huge cross burning in the yard in Nashville, Tennessee. So I mean that kind of changed my existence in my world. UM. And so what I'm seeing now is everybody is beginning to understand if they want to, that there is a racial inequality in this country, and a lot of them are thinking we need to do something about it. And that is extremely encouraging. So,
I mean, I hope it really amounts to something. I'm optimistic there um as well, and we'll look forward to what the future we can. We can we create a better world, um, which is important. It is so as we wind down, let me ask, is there one particular question that you wished I have I should have asked you, who is my mentor? Oh, that's a good question. Who what's your who's your mentor? My mother? That's great, that's great.
Here's a lady who had a master's degree in psychology who took over a business in the eighties early eighties when women were not supposed to be in construction, and she had the foresight and fortitude to know that she needed to hold onto this business and make sure that her three daughters, not a son, her three daughters followed in her footsteps and in the footsteps of their ancestors. That's great. I'm sure she's extremely proud of you and what you have accomplished. And I do know that you've
got some brilliant sisters. I've met at least one of them. Yes, you have. Yes, my sister is the architect of record for the Martin Luther King Memorial, and he's program manager for uh the African American Museum, and he's program manager
for the Barack Obama Library. Well, it sounds like the blood really was running deep from your ancestors in terms of you had no choice but to be in the field that you that you're in, and what a great uh you know, legacy, and to to see your family business thrive um you know as it as it has. Thank you so much for joining us, and I know that our listeners will be inspired by what you share with us today. So thank you so much, Carrol. There are so much to learn from Schryl mccassi Daniel. Here
are three things that stuck with me from that conversation. First, of course, it's the importance of family. Sure probably wouldn't have joined mckisic and Macausi if her mother hadn't asked for help, but seeing yes and following her mother's lead was one of the best things shows ever done. Second, piano four to the next generation should extend beyond family. Ryl and a friend created Legacy Engineering for the sole purpose of giving young engineers ownership, now allowing them to
be entrepreneurs. That's the way to build a solid future for young people and for the firm. Finally, never underestimate the power of women to inspire and move each Other's mother took up with mckiz and mckissic back in the nineteen eighties when women were not supposed to be in construction, and she made sure that her daughters all went on to great professional success. Tune in next Thursday to hear about our next feature, Women and discover why she's one
of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG. Have a Great Day.