SPS 290: Self Publishing In Multiple Countries, Getting Arrested, And Grassroots Marketing with Machiel Hoek

You can see if you're watching the video version . You can see the cover . Good looking cover . The book turned out great . He's also the co-founder of it All Makes Sense , a company focused on helping people live lighter and more relaxed lives , and he's based out of . Amsterdam , which is kind of fun , or the Netherlands , I guess , I should say .

And so , yeah , excited to chat Michael . He worked with us on this book and so we've been able to see the behind the scenes of this . We just got a feature up . We'll include it in the show notes of him and his book and the behind the scenes all that . We put a feature up on the selfpublishcom site , kind of behind the scenes of his process .

But I'm excited , welcome . How are you ? Thank you , thank you very much for having me . So tell me about . So , I guess , first things first , why a novel and and going the fiction approach instead of non-fiction to kind of convey the message that you wanted to convey in this book and and all that stuff .

I read over 2,000 books that were related to the secrets of life , the secrets of the universe , how things were explained , religions , all spiritual stuff , and most of those books were just nonfiction . So I take such a book and sometimes I just started reading the middle what I was interested in , and it took me a bit of it .

Um , yeah , it took some time to get to the core , to get the whole message of the book or even finish them . And then I read some stories more like , not novels , but the . These , the books like , um , the , the celestine prophecy by james Redfield or Sophie's World by Justin Gardner .

Those are novels but the underlying message is the same as a nonfiction book , and I think this is the way I would like to bring a message across .

And at some point in my life I had an inner voice that said to me you got to stop everything you do , you got to give up the potential financial independence that's luring the uh around the corner and start doing what you came to do here in this life . And that is about the secret of life .

And I thought , okay , I'll do it , and if I find it , I want to be able to explain it to other people . I actually would like to write a book that I would love , love , would have loved to read when I was a kid or when I was a teenager or a young adult , and that's what I ended up doing .

I thought I need to bring it in the form of a novel , because then it is , from start to end , a story that takes you by the hand and through the whole process you get a deeper understanding of what I want people to well to grab from it . I like that uh to grab from it .

You've got kind of traditional nonfiction on the left-hand side , very straightforward , Maybe here's a story lessons recap , here's a story lessons recap , et cetera . Then you've got , I'd say , in the middle is kind of a fable , and we've had Patrick Lencioni come on and talk about fables . I think we even had John Gordon maybe talk about John Gordon or Bob Berg .

Both have been on the show , I forget . We kind of nerded out on fables in multiple episodes . I think that's a really interesting sub-genre for business books . I'd say that's kind of in the middle of this spectrum . Then you've got novels on the other side , so maybe even Anne Ryan , Atlas Shrugged , you know kind of okay , novel teaching an underlying thing .

So how did you think about on that spectrum , Like , would you consider what you did a fable ? Is it a full-fledged novel ? Did you think about going the fable route ? Like , how did you kind of think about that ?

A book that adapts to the reader , and of course I'm not patting myself on the shoulder , but I'm proud of what it is and it went out that way that really it doesn't depend on where someone comes from .

I have professors from university reading it , I have kids from eight or nine being read or even reading it themselves , and they both love it because it adapts to them .

change the . Well , I want to . Of course it's called the Girl Changed the World , but I want to help change the world . I want to make the world a better place , like you do , like you do with self-publishing . You give a platform to people , to with every uh aspect .

So I wanted to change the world myself and I thought what better place to do that , to make impact , than the us ? Um , in a lot of european eyes , the us is a country that is very masculine , has a lot of influence . Of course , you , you , you saved us in and after World War II .

The country has such a big influence in the world and I think it's well , if you want to make a difference in the world , start there . So that's what I thought , and I thought it would be easy just to translate it and get it published , and that was a huge underestimate .

First of all , the cultural difference between Europe and America are amplified by translation . I had to change a lot of scene in the book where people say if you do this , your book will be banned on Amazon . If you keep it unchanged , you could be sued . I thought what ? Never heard any noise on that in Holland or in Europe .

But that was one nice thing to encounter . And then I thought , okay , I'll just approach publishers and agents , and of course no one wants to have me because I'm an unknown foreign author for them .

So then I thought I follow the example of James Redfield , and James Redfield has a story in the 90s for his book the Celestine Prophecy , that at some point he just he wasn't wanted by any publisher or agent as well , and he just printed 2,000 copies and drove around America giving away copies to readers and bookshops out of the trunk of his car .

So I thought I'll do the same . So I had 2,000 copies of the translation printed , shipped them over to LA and started handing them out there . And of course nobody wanted them , because on LA , if you hand something out to people on the street , they don't want it because you can't , yeah , Ask money for it . I don't know , I've never been in LA before .

So at some point I saw a lot of homeless people and I thought I'll just give them my books and they can give them away or just charge some money for it .

So my book in LA was spread around by the homeless network , was spread around by the homeless network and then I just drove forward to San Francisco and I saw some places with huge long lanes and all these American for me typical American mailboxes in front of the house and I thought , hey , that's easy .

So I started driving past this house just filling each mailbox with one book and a little note into it until , I think after 20 or 30 mailboxes I heard a siren behind of me and a sheriff saying get out of the car , sir , You're committing a federal crime . What so ? I was arrested for touching these mailboxes .

Of course I now know it's a federal crime to even touch a US mailbox and I got myself out by saying I'm Dutch , I didn't know and I explained what I was doing , but it took me three hours to talk me out of it and that for me was quite a challenging experience , because being confronted with an American sheriff , being European , that's a new experience .

Was that before you started working with us , I'm assuming ? And then you said , yeah , what did that like , what did that look like ?

And a lot of people then I spoke within the publishing business , like editors and some other others said you don't want to get published with a publisher , you're out of control . If in two months it's not a success , they'll end you and you cannot do anything about it . You lose your rights . Please , please , do go the self-publishing routes .

And in Europe there's a difference . Self-publishing means lesser in some way , and I learned in America that's not the case at all . So I'm glad that I went the other way , and that's when I got introduced to SPC and then things moved forward .

Are you glad that you started and published locally in your own language first and then went to the us ? Do you wish you would have done it the other way around ? Like , what did you learn from that process ?

So it turns out you're not . So , unless you're a native speaker in English , don't do it , uh , don't , don't start , don't start with writing in English . So I had to redo my whole manuscript , uh , in Dutch , based on all the advice I got , and then get it translated .

And I'm glad I did it that way , because it learned me so much about the publishing industry close to my home and I learned about the differences . And I think US is a wonderful market but it's also very competitive . And if you step in without that experience , you can have a success too , because you're guiding me and other authors that start publishing .

So that's great and clear . But to have , like , say , a home base and that experience , the first steps can be very beneficial . But it depends , of course , what you want to achieve and what your let's say mother tongue is .

Was this more of a passion project , kind of ? How did you launch in that market ? Was the purpose to grow your business ? Was this more of a passion project , kind of how did this fit in with what you were doing ? How did you launch it and what came of it ? Just local to the Netherlands .

the secrets of life and then write this book about it . So it's my mission , it's my passion , it's what I want to do , um and the story is short story that I I had sold my business . I had to stay on for three years because of the consultancy business , of course , related to me .

And after one year I got this insight , this , this inner voice saying you gotta , you gotta quit now and do what you want to do , because otherwise you'll never do it . And if I I had stayed on for two more years , I would have been financially independent and I could do it in a totally different way .

But apparently , if you're financially independent , the urge to do things is also different . I see that with a lot of other people that became financially independent . So I think for me it was the right step .

So I stepped out of it and wanted to get it out and published and I realized now I realize , of course , that writing a book is very tough and getting it edited and getting it finished is tough . Then finding a publisher I did find a publisher in the Netherlands , but finding a publisher getting it out there is really , really hard .

And then getting it sold , getting it marketed this is very tough . So if you know that from the beginning it's like , oh no , no , I'm not gonna gonna start that , I'll do something else which is less , uh , fatiguing . But um , I had the same experience here as in the US . No one wanted to publish me and at some point again , it was COVID time .

We had a lockdown and I just printed 2,000 books and I gave them literally away in my hometown . I just went from door to door , put them in a mailbox it's not illegal here Saying you might be bored , you might want to read something , maybe you'll like this .

And the results and the response from it was so overwhelming I thought , okay , now I can find a publisher because there's so much people saying you got to publish this . Then I found a publisher and then we got it onward . But we're the same step .

So any advice is just believe in what you wrote , believe in what you want to achieve with it and just go every step and continue , continue until you get traction .

And another person said , hey , you need 20,000 copies . So he said , hey , it's probably somewhere in the middle , right , but thinking about , hey , how do I get a base level of books out into the world in a way that people will read it and that it will start to grow some legs of its own ?

And so I think it's really cool hearing you say that of just hey , how do I shortcut this process and get this in 2,000 hands . And then now you said the response was really good . So what started happening ? Were people giving the book to other people ? Were telling other people to buy it . Were they , did you have people reaching out to you ?

Like what did that response kind of look like ?

So if you are looking to spread your book with the aim of supporting your business , I think it might be a different route , and if you want to have a bestseller with tens of thousands of copies being sold in the end , I think this is the way . That might be the way to do it , but I don't believe it's .

Giving away is very good , but of course , at some point you got to materialize on that . So I don't believe in setting a sales price and then discounting it . Because you believe in your message , you believe in your book , what you wrote , I think books are so much powerful , and so much more powerful than many of the online courses that you can do .

Of course , they're very good online courses , but many of them are very expensive and what you get there is what you can read in a book for a fraction of the price . You only have to read it . Books are treasures , but I think this is right .

The seeding aspect is very important to get it out there to people who you get , to get momentum and there's maybe one or two person there that is really going to give you a stage . Of course , everyone wants a celebrity credential or celebrity blurb or something like that , and they know that . Of course you got to build up .

So probably it's true that it's roughly between the 1,000 and 20,000 . 20,000 is a lot , but it's like shooting with hail . You shoot with hail and you hit targets , but you don't know in which direction you have to shoot . You just shoot .

A launch team obviously that's one of our big concepts , that we teach All of them . Yeah , a launch team obviously that's one of our our big concepts , that we teach all of them .

Yeah , and so tell me , you know , how did you find out about selfpublishingcom and at what point in your journey was that and why did you decide to work with us all that good stuff , um , in this way .

And he introduced me to Kristen Andrews . She worked for Stedman , for Graham Stedman , stedman , graham sorry , the partner of Oprah Winfrey for over 15 years and she had been editing his books and introduced me to her and she was in love with the story but said , ok , we can uplift it .

So she really polished it , uplifted to the level that is really , I think , the right level for the American readers and American markets , really I think the right level for the American readers and American markets .

And we were together on this quest to find an agent or find a publisher , with a lot of disappointments in that way , and at some point she was indeed introduced to SBC , saying OK , this might be the group of people that is really capable of getting the book right out there in the right state , with the right approach , the right launch , but you know you still

have to do it yourself . You can launch whatever you want , but you the the whole propulsion is yourself .

So you gotta keep uh putting the energy in , gotta keep moving it , gotta keep on uh continuously putting your own effort in it and if you , if that's your , your , your your type of of of dealing with it , if you can uh master that , and if you like that , then this is the right way to do that .

So she well , it was via , via , via , but in the end that's always the way it works , uh , and of course , you have very good credentials . So that's that added to it cool , that's awesome .

The tough part is always where , if you're an American author and you're launching your book with you for the first time , that's a different experience than when you already had done it once and you maybe become a bit more stubborn or a bit more of my own idea . But that's good , that friction . It polishes the diamonds , so that's good .

So I don't think there were any rough parts in there . It's only good where you have , um , the interaction , say , okay , I might think I'm with it and and being advised the other way , so you get some , some , some , not a fight , but you get some discussion

and someone's okay , let's do it that way or do it that way . I accept your advice , let's go that way , that's , that's just normal interaction and that's very good that it has been that way that's good .

He had this phrase which just kind of drove me crazy and I thought was really dumb , but then I kind of came around to it . He said listen and do it . He said I know the process of what you're about to do and I'm going to give you advice and all you have to do is listen and then do it . He's like , no , you're going to want to question it .

You're going to want to say , oh , that's not right , You're going to want to whatever . But I've done this and you have it and so just listen to what I say and and it will work . But if you try to outsmart it , you're gonna not do the core things that you need to do . So just listen .

And so it was almost just this super clarifying thing for me up front where I said okay , well , I'm just gonna listen exactly what you say and I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna work harder than anybody else and I'm gonna be super coachable and it worked right .

At that company I became the number one in the company , number one in the country for all franchisees , and so we've kind of adopted that mantra with a lot of authors that we work with is hey , you're paying us to give you a process and accountability , but also to give you tough feedback , and I think it's easy to get but to your point , it's really impressive

how you've done this and working with us is . It's one thing to say that or to understand it , it's another thing to do it . So when someone comes to me and I say , hey , the title isn't good , they're like hey , I think I've got my title . That's not good . Come back with five more . Or hey , the cover , cover , yeah , it could be better .

And then , just week after week , showing up to these group coaching calls with me and I'm saying , all right , come back next week , keep working it .

It can be infuriating and you can just feel like you're beating your head against the keyboard or against your computer , but what ends up happening is you get a better book , but only if you listen and take the feedback , and so I know you've really done that .

Was there any lessons learned from that or any advice for people who are kind of going through the process or about to go through the process ?

There are some points where , of course , your point is very valuable as an author , but on the other side , you're the experts and you got to indeed combine it , and I think it's also about what is it you want to achieve . If , of course , you want to get your masterpiece out there in a way you want it , that's , that's your choice .

You can do it , of course , but if you want to do , let's say , reach a larger audience or get a bestseller , or or make it as as um as as possible , as as as to get your audience as big as possible , then you should listen to the advice .

Okay , if that , if that's what you want , then you got to give up some of the autonomy of what you created , because indeed , it will be better is subjective , but it will be a better project for a larger group , for a larger audience and therefore a larger success in that way , measured in quantities .

I didn't understand about the world is that our world is so much out of balance that masculine energy , or call it male energy or the way masculine energy works , has controlled our world for millennia . I mean , it's in our business system , it's in our economical system , our political system , legal system .

There's a big disbalance and we've taken it for granted by being raised that way and , of course , we had movements where things were getting more equal . But in all these aspects , our society is , in that way , really out of balance . Anything out of balance will create things that are unhealthy or will , in the end , topple over .

So one thing that I understood there is okay if we want to bring back this balance , I have to , let's say , even maybe stir the pot of sisterhoods . I have to maybe challenge feminine energy , women to maybe stand up , because it's a dual action . It's not about men saying , or the masculine part saying , okay , we got to do things differently .

It's the feminine part that has to do the same , and my perception , my observation , is that this balance is created by both sides and we need on both sides something to happen to really create a balance .

And that's why I call my book also Barbie Meets Oppenheimer , because it's the Barbie movie , which I think is a really clever movie in that way , about patriarchy , matriarchy and Oppenheimer , where it's about quantum physics .

So what I try to explain in this book is first , it's about a young girl , 13-year-old girl , and she's being taught by her grandfather how you can look at life .

She's unhappy and a lot of things are against her in her life and he teaches her how you can discover to make that change , how you can really change your world and then the world in a way that things really become the opposite of what you thought they were , and by doing so he teaches us about quantum physics , like really in a nutshell , to get it explained

. So that's the Oppenheimer aspect , because in the end the world becomes a different playground , a different way of interacting with it . It's not the world coming at you and all its massiveness and everything that's set out in stone and everything is unchangeable . It becomes an interaction and dance with everything outside there . Unchangeable .

It becomes an interaction and dance with everything outside there and by making that dance , this girl transcends and she even changes her grandfather because and that's the masculine aspect she changes him in what he , he says , but he doesn't walk his talk , and I think that is both a nice metaphor as well as , for me , um , a kind of a uh calling to , yeah ,

women , feminine energy to say there's got to change something . And if you profess sisterhood but not living up to it , that's my observation we got to change some things to make this , to make this , to really get to a world where everything is balanced , and that's that means changing some system as well .

So it's an underlying level in the story , but it's part of it . So that's what's part of my , I think , life and souls mission is about . I want to contribute to a balanced world where , uh , things are different . One thing to say about that . I'll stop everything .

Our world , in current world , in conflicts , is created on a masculine level where there is action , reaction , revenge and another revenge on , if you look at conflicts that are violent conflicts , wars and all the assaults going on in the world . If we want to solve this , like Aysen said , you cannot solve it on the level where it was created .

You need a higher level , and I think , I feel , that this higher level , overarching energy is feminine , because there are different connections in that way that they can bring and relate to and overcome the conflicts that we have created and which we are so firm upon .

I think a little bit of a polarizing take , which I think is pretty smart . I mean not only because it's something you believe , but it also it's . You've probably heard of the three-star book with no three-star reviews .

It's a Perry Marshall marketing concept , and so he talks about how there's some books that are really polarizing and it's like a three-star on Amazon , but really there's no three-star reviews . It's five stars from the people who absolutely love it . And then it's then arguing in the comments about why the other person is wrong , which drives a lot of book sales .

And so I think I think a lot of people are afraid to take a polarizing stance and so they water it down and they have a vanilla book . Well then , who cares ? No one , and so I , I like , I like the approach you're taking there . No one , and so I like the approach you're taking there .

Last question I'll ask is what would be your parting piece of advice for someone who's in your shoes from years ago , thinking about writing their first book , or someone who's thinking about working with us at selfpublishcom .

And I like your phrase about the three stars , about the polarization , about be your true self in that way , and if that creates a lot of critic as well as praise , then that's wonderful , it's . It's , yeah , better than the bland three-star average . Get the five ones and accept the one stars . That's wonderful , I like . So . I like that comment on that . So

, um , anyone doing thinking about doing this , please do it , because the world you're doing the world of this service not not to express your , your deepest feelings or your or your deepest fantasies or your deepest stories or your deepest wisdom . Please get it out there , but realize it's sometimes a bit of a tough journey , but that makes it interesting .

Yeah , I love that .