You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the entire ocean in a drop - Rumi // with Dr Kieran Kennedy

we are and who we are. That's what society tells us we are, and we can change that narrative, and I think for men's health, we need to be changing that narrative.

will bear all the facets of seizing your Yeay. Sarah Davidson or A spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milkbar. CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Welcome back to yeas of our lives, Lovelyyighborhood. This one is a bit of

a cracker in a CZA. First, I didn't write any notes to prepare for this episode or edit any of it at all, which has never happened before, which is both terrifying and liberating as well as a testament to what a great conversationalist our guest for the episode truly is. I'm joined by absolute legend doctor Kieran Kennedy, a medical doctor, psychiatrist, and mental health advocate who first appeared on the show back in episode ninety two, which I highly recommend you

go back and have a listen to for context. It is in fact the one year anniversary this week of our chat for last year's Men's Health Week, and I thought who better to join for a reunion to discuss this year's Men's Health Week then Kieran. Kieran is a dedicated advocate for redefining societal ideas about masculinity, encouraging open conversations about mental health and well being, and has been a shining light for many of us through the challenges

of Victoria's continued lockdowns. He also expertly weaves in amongst his technical scientific wisdom, a wicked sense of humor, passion for Calf Club which I'll never let him live down and which you'll hear all about, and love for seizing his yea, making this chat an absolute hoot. We really only met properly during last year's episode and haven't known each other that long, but he's one of those people you instantly trust and can have the most enjoyably tangential

conversations with. I had also been filming for over fifteen hours when we recorded this one, so do please excuse my delirium. I usually don't let my crazy out of the bag that much, but hopefully you get a few laughs out of it, as well as a more serious practical insights on managing your mental health. Doctor Kieran Kennedy and Calf Club member extraordinaire, welcome back to the show.

United States. You have named one of your national parks incorrectly because veggiemite is not vegemity. I win, and.

so that makes this our anniversary so much yay. So can you let us in on the secret of what calf Club actually is and why every time I see you I have to mention it and ask how lamb he's going back in New Zealand.

facing in Lockdown last year. And somehow in my research I unearthed that actually your launch into the stratosphere of the universe was calf Club back in New Zealand, which is can you explain for all the mainlanders in here?

such a great chat. But in all seriousness, apart from being a calf club champion extraordinaire, you are an extremely accomplished qualified doctor of psychiatry who's doing wonderful things in the world of mental health for men in particular, but for everyone generally, and being a wonderful spokesperson for mental health in a time where it's probably been challenged more than it really ever has been in it our memories.

So I thought for today's yas of our lives, because I have done zero preparation, that I would let you choose the quote of the A and see if there was anything that had kind of come up for you in the last I mean, we've just come out of Lockdown number four after having done our last episode in Lockdown number miscellaneous number. Who knows what has the last couple of weeks been like for you? And is there a quote that you wanted to chat about today?

and do a lot of different things. So I'm doing some psychiatry works of locom work, we call it sort of little private contract work the doctors, and I'm also rolling up the sleeves to help the vaccine roll out, So I've been doing a vaccine clinic a few days a week as well, which has been something different and something really important to get behind. And then just my usual rambling and trying to get the message out there

as well. So it's been really, really busy, but really good as well, because, just as you said, Sarah, that's never a time more that we need to be talking about mental health, because I think we're all feeling it in some way right now.

really wonderful. I mean, it was probably starting to happen, but that's kind of solidified itself over the past year and a bit like maybe eighteen months has been a real light being shone on men's mental health in particular, and maybe because it's been more acute and the need has been greater to sort of talk about it more and encourage conversations and really engage in preventive mental health for the gender who is not traditionally encouraged to kind

of show when they're struggling or reach out. Absolutely, and you've been a wonderful spokesperson for that, like guiding us all through I mean, as soon as the lockdown happens again, every announcement, you've just been pumping out really reassuring but not too scientific or over complicated information either. That's been really really really wonderful.

think making it relatable is key, but yeah, I almost forgot. Then I did find a quote because I took all that pressure on my back knowing that I needed to find the quote because you've been hectic.

drop in the ocean. You're the entire ocean and a drop, And I love that quote and I've always found it

incredibly powerful. But you know, when I was thinking about us talking about mental health and this current time and Men's Health Week that we've just had last week, that one sort of stands out as well, because I think there's a bit of a stormy, a stormy old ocean going on out there in the world at the moment, and it's so easy for all of us to feel like we're pretty isolated and alone and you know, sort of hemmed and with a lot of anxiety and worry

right now. So you know that that idea or ethos of you know, you're not just the drop, you you're the ocean in that drop is I think quite powerful when we're thinking about having these discussions, because no matter how alone or isolated you feel, you're worth you know, your story is worth being heard and you are worth reaching out. So that that is a bit psychobably and psychiatrisy.

But I said, I wasn't going to go there, but you know, yeah, in its own way, that's what that quote sort of clicked them with quite nicely to me this past week.

what to do. But actually, I think there are so many people out there who are who know what to say or who know who to help you, how to get you to someone who knows what to say.

side of things for men more. And I think you said it before, Sarah, but the almost the strange double take silver lining to everything we've all been through in the last twelve months is that it's really just outed the fact that mental health and mental illness is something

that unites us, it doesn't separate us. And I think of anything this Men's Health Week, it's just been so so so bloody amazing for me as a mental health doctor to see that mental health health has really been an equal kind of partner to physical health, because it's not just Men's Health Week, it's it's all health weeks.

And it goes for women too, I think, but we're often so much quicker to just jump on, Okay, let's let's talk about prostate cancer, and let's talk about viagra, and let's talk about men's sexual health and their fitness and you know, all of those big ticket physical things that are really really important, but sometimes the mental health

discussions can feel a little secondary. But for me, this past week with Men's Health Week has really just felt very strongly that we've kind of bumped mental health up to an equal placing on that table and that's exactly where it should be. And you know, that's been so so so great to see.

or who we're talking to. But to see that even just how often, you know, how regularly you've been consulted to contribute to things, and watching your career blossom as well, is in itself kind of a sign that these conversations are becoming more important and have evolved from almost being a little bit sort of tokenistic and like a week where we just tick the box of which is not a bad thing. I mean, it's better than nothing. It's

the start of how conversations begin. But it's almost like it stopped being just something we think about for one week and it started being something that different organizations or different spokesperst people or ambassadors are actually bringing up all the time.

separately from me as well. Obviously, I've seen so many people on social media and in the media this past week just really pushing that, you know, and so to see fitness influences or you know, media platforms that might not traditionally talk about some of that nitty gritty difficult stuff. To see places like that kind of pushing for for health of mind as being equally important as your body.

That's been so you know, it's been really special to see, actually, you know, because I think men's health is that you know, and obviously women's health is as well, but you know, men's health is so much more than you know, gymming and you know, lifestyle stuff and prostate cancer and although are the physical things and obviously they all have their place, but you know, men and men's health as a whole. You know, men are so much more than that. And

men are you know, the vulnerable side. Men are, you know, the panic attacking side. They're the worrying about failure, worrying if they stack up against other guys, worrying if they're ever gonna you know, nail down a partner or have kids one day. You know, all of these things that that masculinity has for so long told men they can't be or they can't touch. You know, it's really important that we acknowledge that that those things are men's health

as well. And you know, it's this really interesting shift happening in the world, I think where for men and women, we're sort of sitting up to the fact that our health is so much more than sort of what we see on the surface and are biased. But you know, as a psychiatry doctor, I think that's a that's a

bloody view orful things. So it's you know, it's been actually a really sort of humbling, special sort of week to see in the midst of all this COVID chaos, some of the messages that we're pushing for men and their health right now.

doesn't mean it's exclusively female. And I don't think men have really ever been given permission to say I've got comparison itis about my career or my worth or my body, like body image in particular, something you spoke to me about last year, and that was quite new, Like I don't think many men had even started having those conversations. So it's really wonderful to see how far in just a year we've come.

these things, you know. And you know what we always say in psychiatry, and it's not my quote at all, but you know, the the unexamined life, you know, is questionably you know that the examined life is the life worth living, you know. So I think if it's taken something like this to get us all to sit up, and especially to get us men to sit up and really start acknowledging that these things of your very real and they're very important, and that it doesn't make you

less of a man. It actually makes you more of a man to kind of acknowledge that we're struggling and to reach out and ask for help. So, no, it's huge, and I mean, just as you said there, So, there's been a lot of sort of research and things coming out lately showing that men really are feeling a lot of these things that we traditionally just sort of wouldn't think that men would be feeling or worrying about. And as you said, the body image struggles and things is

one that's really skyrocketing for men lately. But also those fears about whether we're doing okay and you know, what other people think, and all of those things. You know, I think they've always been there for men. But masculinity and femininity, they have their physiological components. You know, men and women are different in certain ways for definite reasons. But you know, so much of what masculinity is and

femininity is is socially constructed. You know that the world tells a man what a man is supposed to be, and vice versa tells a woman what a woman's supposed to be. And you know, I think that can make it really difficult if naturally we actually are also underneath feeling things that the world tells us we're not supposed to feel. And obviously for people who are in between, you know, genders, or who might be fluid in their gender and things, that brings in a whole other range

of difficult kind of pushes and pulls there too. So I think it's important for us to remember that a lot of the things we're starting to see men struggle with may have been there all along in some form, but the fact that we're starting to see them may be a sign that we're starting to break through some of those traditionally very powerful ways that the world has said this is masculine, this is feminine, because actually, at the end of the day, that's by logically often not

what we are and who we are. That's what society tells us we are, and we can change that narrative, and I think for men's health, we need to be changing.

you know, how we feel. And I think spokespeople like you are so important to help normalize breaking down those barriers where they're not productive, because sometimes they are, but where then you know, where they might stop someone from

reaching out to get help. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you in the Yighborhood Watch section, coming at it from quite a different perspective that I normally would, where you know, I'm normally looking out there for like a community hero story or a community group or something, but I'd love to ask you just from a I know you can't talk specifics about patient or people or conversations, but I think one of the big barriers is access, and not access in that psychiatrists and

psychologists aren't accessible, but more that patients don't actually go and seek them, and that's a really big psychological barrier.

So for people who might be wanting to chat to someone like you or even just open the conversation, I know that social media has made it a lot easier to drop you a DM or kind of say, reach out in a less formal way, which obviously can sometimes compromise your working hours and like stretch your boundaries, but it also means that you've probably connected with a lot of people who would never have otherwise consulted a psychiatrist just to ask questions about how they feel or what

the right resources are. So on the whole in the neighborhood, are there any questions or themes that have repeatedly come up that if someone was listening they might find useful to hear what your answer was. Who might have missed your DM, who might have missed your stories or the places where you've kind of said the same thing a couple of times that you know might be useful for them as a starting point.

anniversary and Men's Health Week and things. You know, there have really been some big ticket things that have come up, and you know, one of the first ones that comes to mind is really a lot of you know, girlfriends, wives, mums, sisters, friends asking how they can support the man or the men in their lives if they're struggling, you know, And that's a really powerful thing too, you know, and that always really warms me, you know, to know that we're

looking out for each other that way. You know. Obviously we talk about men's health and women's health, but we're all in this together and overall it's just health. So one of the things that I often get asked is how can I make it easier in terms of opening up or broaching these conversations, and especially for men, I think because of all those sort of traditional things, men have been made to feel and the messages we've taken, and it can be hard for guys in particular to

open up about this stuff. So a question I often get asked is how do I kind of get in their efforts if it's a bit tough in terms of getting him to open up or getting him to talk about these things.

to make it slightly less emotionally confronting and intense. And some really fascinating research that shows that for guys in particular, this can actually help just ease things a little bit to get us to open up and to talk about

some of these touchy feely kind of difficult things. So by a diffuser, I mean there's research that shows raising it in the car when you're side by side rather than face to face, men often find side by side conversations about this mental health emotional tricky stuff easier than when it's face to face sometimes, So trying it out in the car can be helpful while you're doing the dishes together, if your mates or whatever, when you're going for a job or a jog sorry, or when you're

doing a job together. You know, something in between that kind of means there's a little element of distraction there. You can be using your hands or there's other things going on. It can just for some people, women included, just take that emotional intensity out of it and that can be enough to allow someone to sort of open up. So that's a tip I often throw out there or give to people if they're saying, how do I open

up easier if I want to? Or for someone who's in the support role who's worried about someone and wanting them to open up, you know, that's something that they can use as well, just sort of trying and slip it in there when there's a bit of a diffuser in there too.

car dn ms are low key therapy sessions. I'm like, oh my god, he's just explained it from a scientific point of view. It's because there's a diffuser.

really awkward. But I cannot be the only person in the world who thinks that when I'm looking at someone really close, I start to overthink that I can't look at both their eyes at the same time, and then I have to look at one or the other, and then I think, oh my god, they're going to see that I'm not looking at them straight on, that I'm only.

do a virtual poll right now. Please everyone DM me if you have had that exact thought before during a serious conversation. But I get like it removes that whole intimacy that makes the conversation more intimidating when you're looking at someone's facial expression. That makes so much sense.

And I think when we're in that space and zone, when we're feeling really comfortable and connected, but at least to start with some of these conversations, You're absolutely right, it can just feel really kind of charged and intense and a bit confronting sometimes, I think, And so especially for people who might not have have always felt safe to raise some of the stuff or to be vulnerable or to talk about you know that they had a panic attack the other day, didn't tell anyone, or you

know that they're actually really scared that the business is going down the tubes, you know. And for men, I think, because again of that societal kind of plaster that society has put over men, sometimes I think that can be pretty prominent. So just diffusing the situation a little bit, and as you say, meming it up with that car, with that car therapy session, or the water, the walk around the lake, whatever it is. You know, as you say, that's not just a meme, there's some actual science in

that too. Yeah, that's that's a big that's a big thing that I rolled out to people when they're asking sort of how can I get you know, my mate or my partner, or my mom or my dad or my son to open up more, you know, trying that can help. And you know, I think something else to really remember as well, especially if you're the supporter of someone who's struggling, is that it's okay to take the

pressure off. You know, you said before, Sarah. You know, often we'll like google search psychiatry and we'll be like getting textbooks out and like trying to see what therapy technique we can like put under a everyone's start waving

a clock in front of their face. You know, I think taking that pressure off it on both sides is important because actually, far and away, the biggest thing that helps in these scenarios is when we are just there, and if we're the one that needs to talk, the biggest benefit comes from just talking and just getting out whatever you feel you can, you know, because these things can be complicated, hard to explain. It's not easy sometimes to sum up how you're feeling and why and what

it means. But there's often a pressure to think, we have to do that, And if you're on the other side of the conversation, there can often be this pressure should I have to I have to come up with some solution or some way to fix it, or help them or know something profound to say. But actually the biggest benefit from being the supporter is just being a

bit of a sponge, just being there to listen. So I think if we take the pressure and intensity out of some of these situations, that actually means we're not only open up to each other, but the opening up as actually more helpful, you know. So I always say to people, whether it's in the hospital or out of the hospital, just do it. Like it doesn't have to be a it doesn't have to be a Ted talk. It just has to be whatever comes out, you know. And that's thank you for.

much you or the other thing. I think that's I mean, I would love to talk to you about mental health forever. I mean, there are so many things that I think are important. But I also I'm conscious that we're both well you're not, but I'm losing coherence. So I think another thing that is really important in CZA, but in life in general, is that when you are as passionate as you are about what you do, and access to

you has become easier for good reason. And I'm sure you've had you have many instances in your mind where you're so glad that someone was able to reach out to you in a way that they couldn't have a decade ago or five years ago. I think one of the things we talked for most of the lake about before UFOs and Calf Club and various named national parks in the US, was that we felt guilty that we were relieved, like in part relieved about a fourth lockdown,

having not learned our lessons the first three times. And because that's why I talk about platio so much, because we do get really consumed in our careers because when you love them like, there really is very little incentive

to kind of slow down before it's too late. And so I'd love to ask in this Neighborhood Watch section if there's anything you've seen that made you smile out in the community that wasn't about mental health, or that wasn't work related or a win as a psychiatrist, but that was just something you saw that made you happy, or that you did that made you happy, or a restaurant that you were like, you know, just an experience coming out of lockdown that really reminded you why it's exciting to be alive.

of lockdown and I did. I was getting my coffee where I would normally get my coffee in the morning before clinic and seeing people come in and like just the excitement of being able to go in and like sit down in the shop again and people saying hello to each other and hello to the barrister, and you know, it was just it did kind of make me stop and you know, have a little internal smile because I don't want to be that guy just standing there by himself like with a smile of faith.

get the coffee. You know, I think this whole pandemic life and going into lockdown and out lockdown. You know. Again, a silver lining in its own weird way, is that it's just shown us how important connection is, even those tiny little connections that we probably don't even think of

as connections. You know, I think when we think connections to other humans, we think, you know, our girlfriend, or we think our best mate, or we think our parents or siblings, but actually all those little other people and other little fleeting connections in our day are really really

important to just living as well, you know. So yeah, so that was that was something that made me sort of have a little bit of yay in the day just to see that coming across as people came out of Melbourne's you know, eleven hundredth.

And I think it's something that you might not notice, actually does happen quite often that strangers will smile at each other or connect for a second over their dog, or you know, something will happen or like someone even something as small as someone was driving past a cafe that I was sitting at and beeping his horn like crazy person, and all of us just laughing together like oh my god, what like connecting over that was like I haven't just laughed with the stranger in a long time.

And those little moments are really really lovely where you all just know how nice it is to see another person laugh and smile at.

really miss when they're not there. So totally, there's definitely a little creepy smile point for me.

everyone understands why that particular thing is funny. And that's why I love the Internet, because when you can't connect in person, you can all join together about how hysterical it is that you know, everyone around the world, like every woman in the world has seventy five lip balms and hair ties and you can never find them, and we all can just bond over that experience, you know, just like little small things or no you know, everyone has a chair or a couch in their room where

their laundry lives. For eighty five years after it's cleaned, before it gets folded and put away. Like we all understand those communal humanity things, and I think it's because that's part of just being a human.

I think I literally got up to about five last week, and we all get it.

restricted in movement and we are relying a little bit on the internet for human connect and those like hit you in the heart kind of things. Even music. I noticed I had forgotten to listen to music because I'm not driving as much, and I put on a playlist the other day and it made me so happy, and that made me happy for the rest of the day. And I just forgot how much the stimulus you put in your brain affects your mood for the rest of

the day. And so as much as I do love making time for serial killer movies because they're really important for me, Like this section is where those things that you watch and they're just feel good. You can't not feel good and happy about being a human. I love sharing those because then when you post about it, someone from across the world will go, oh, my god, I cried in that movie because it was so beautiful, and you're like, yes, I understand, humans are beautiful. Have you

seen was your recommendation? A show, a book, a movie? It can be old or anything you've seen lately that just made you really happy.

weirdly powerful movie. And I think again what it links back to, at least for me, was just that that whole thing of connection, like just kind of stopping in our day, stopping in our lives to realize that these tiny little points of connection that we have to other people or to an animal, or to just nature or what's around us. Yeah, just like really kind of sucker punched me in the gut in terms of our sa how awful that is? And it was yeah, really kind of surprisingly powerful.

one bit. And I only chose to watch it because Nick had said it's been on my list of pages, and I was playing some game on my phone and I was like, oh, well, I'm not going to concentrate, so I can play my game on my phone and watch it. And from the first minute it was literally this guy who is a filmmaker and he really burned himself out and lost creativity and couldn't work. He couldn't film, he had no inspiration to edit, so he started He's from South Africa, and he started going into the same

part of the ocean near where he lives. And one day he discovered this female octopus and got really sort of intrigued by what made her come out of her den and just look at him. And he thought, what if I go back the same you know, every day and show her that my camera's not foreign. I'm not going to you know, I'm not a threat. And over like seven to ten days, she started to touch, like her

little legs and tentacles started to touch. Like there's this amazing footage of all the little what are they call they called suction things.

But he was never a wildlife photographer, and he never made it for a documentary, so he got someone to actually turn it into something ten years later. But the footage that he saw of her is like, you start to conceive of this mollusk as this super intelligent being that recognizes him every day and comes and says hi, hugs him on the chest, and then she gets threatened

by sharks that are in her environment. And at the beginning, like he sees her crawl up into this like octopuses can actually octopy or whatever you say, can actually make themselves like liquid. They can get through the tiniest cracks. But she rolled herself up into a ball, changed color, and then grabbed all the shells from around her, and like, was this weird shell disco ball looking down? I didn't know you know that bit And he didn't know what it was. And then at the end he realized it

was camouflage. So she looked like a rock with shells on her to hide from the sharks. Oh my god, it's so smart. Yeah, And I'm just like I've never like, I love animals, but for some reason, mollusks and like anenemies or whatever, they're not They're not like you know, cute fluffy mammals, you know, so I've never Yeah they're not Paul, right, so I don't. But at the end, I was like, I love you.

You know, this is an octopus and a human. But the way the movie's done, and you know, just as you say, the journey you see it going on, it's just like this bond kind of formed, and you know, it just kind of strips all those other things away, you know, all those other things that as modern day humans.

We get thrown at us on a daily basis in terms of what's important and what we need to be worrying about and doing with our lives and all these things that kind of though again it's between a human and an opopusa, just kind of frames that you know, actually just being together and connecting and you know, treasuring that is what actually matters.

Goldie Horn is like the So Goldie Horn and Susan surround and when they were younger were groupies who were with you know, they followed bands around in the sixties and seventies and like did a lot of drugs and were wild. And then Goldiehorn kind of stays wild, and Susan Surrounder gets married to like a banker and it becomes all proper, and Goldiehorn goes and Caesar like thirty years later, and it's just I kind of explained why it's funny, but it's just because we all know one

of those people, like one of each people. And Goldie kind of reminds Susan how much she's suppressed of her yay self, and they start to like she's like this really proper lady with like a golf course membership and like beige suits, and she goes into a wardrobe and she's like everything I have is beige, and she has like this breakdown and then they get caught by her husband's smoking pot going through all their photos of themselves,

like and her old self comes out. Like it's just so hysterical of like a woman finding herself again, and it like made me think of Platier like remembering how to play. I'm not endorsing smoking weed or joints, but it's just so beautiful watching her find life again and like she went really beige and she found color again. It's just and they're hysterical actress, It's like it's amazing.

from me. But you know, I think also you know your platform and what you're doing on it here, you know how much I love it and respect it, and you know, to have the chance to come on and push you know, the mental health message, the men's health message, to combo those up up in some messy, semi coherent way, you know, it's it's always super super special and humbling.

So thank you, and you know, I hope, if anything, a takeaway from this for anyone listening is that you know, whether you're a man or a woman or anyone in between, you know wherever you are and whoever you are. You know it's okay to be struggling right now, and you're not alone if you are. And you know, like we said right back at the start, you're not just a drop. You're you're the ocean inner drop, so you know you're worth reaching out for and talking out for and getting

help for. So if that's signaling to a quack like me that you need a bit of help, that's cool. Or if it's signaling to a friend or a parent or a partner that you're not doing so well, especially if you're a guy, and that's hard, that's that's what we need to be doing. So yeah, thanks to you for letting me share that my friend, and.