Tarang Chawla // On the complexity of contentment and the capacity for change

will bear all the facets of seizing your yea. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned unentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk bar cz The Ya is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Lovely yighborhood. This episode has been a long time coming with a guest I've admired for many years now.

We have one of those relationships that's so unique to our modern digital lives where we haven't actually met in person yet somehow, but have followed each other's work and lives for some time, have many mutual friends, and had just so much to talk about this first time we sat down for a proper conversation. As you'll hear, that means I strayed all over the place from my usual structured thinking. I just had so many questions on so

many topics. And once you learn a bit more about Teung Trauler, you'll understand why he's an expert on so many different things. Teung is not only a fellow former lawyer, but is also wait for this list, an author, a keynote speaker, an anti violence campaigner, a gender equality and mental health advocate, former independent political candidate, and even a commissioner at the Victorian Multicultural Commission. And that is only

reading half his bio. So it really was impossible to feel like I did anything more than scratch the surface. And I suspect that this won't be our only chat on the show. Just a little content warning. We also cover one of the catalysts for Teung's incredible work and activism, being the tragic murder of his younger sister, Nikki at the age of twenty three by her then husband, as well as the impact of this on his own mental health,

and we briefly touch on suicide. So please do take care while listening and I've included in the show notes a list of resources and helplines should anyone listening need

to reach out at any time, Please don't hesitate. How Tarang has come through this absolutely unimaginable tragedy and dedicated himself to Nicki's legacy with his anti violence campaigning and activism is nothing short of inspiring and actually opens up a much more layered and complex conversation about joy in life and the concept of yay than is usually the case on this show, which was definitely something a bit different, and I do hope it lands in the ears of

anyone out there who might need to hear it. I'm so grateful for his time, his vulnerability, and his energy, and I hope you guys find this as moving as I did. Tarang, Welcome to CZA.

like domestic violence, street harassment, men's mental health, women's mental health, the experience of racism, and you know, it's easy to assume that you knew you wanted to end up here, or the pathway to get here was smooth, and the places that you get a lot of airtime on these issues and not necessarily on your pathway or what it took to kind of shape that journey for you, which is what I love to talk about on this show, Like when you google you, for example, There's so much

from the last couple of years from your activism. There are articles that have been written, there are campaigns that you've been working on. There's so much about the now, and for someone who's earlier on in their journey, who are going through experiences that you went through earlier in your life, it's often quite reassuring to hear more about how you actually got there, what were all the pivotal moments and what you went through to actually shape the

life that you have today. So can you take us back to the very beginnings and trace to all those chapters that helped form the turuque we know today?

for me, it doesn't really start with me. It starts with like my grandparents who were in what is modern.

A lot of people misunderstand arranged marriages.

it was like a facilitated introduction for my parents. But the way that it happened is like my dad put an ad in the Times of India newspaper, the broadsheet, and he went into Connaught place in the center of Delhi and he put an ad in and it was just like you know, five foot nine engineer from x y Z fans family seeks you know, life partner whatever, I don't know, whatever he put And then my mom's dad, my late grandfather, he saw it and it said that my dad's family were from the same part of like

old Pakistan, that my mom's family was no way, and they were like, well, we should go meet them, yeah, And so they did. Like they met and my mom had met like a few men, and you know, none of them really took her fancy. And I even think with my dad, she was just like, I don't know, I'm a twenty She was like twenty four or something twenty three, and she was like, I'm a young woman, and I think this is a misconception people have about

women in other countries. It's like in Australia we often look at other countries and go, oh, this are backwards and stuff. And there's aspects of that, of course, right, and really woeful statistics around some of the women's safety stuff. But there's also like a lot of progressive people, right, like, and modern day India is an example of that, right where you've got a population of one point four billion, right and hundreds and hundreds of millions on the cusp

of being like just that generation of New India. And they're educated, and they're cosmopolitan, and they travel the world and they're progressively minded. And it's like my mom was sort of like, you know, part of that a generation ago. And so she kind of met my dad, and my dad was like he was a career oriented and a very quiet man, and I think he asked my mom what she knew about marine engineering, which is what my dad was. He used to work on ships of the

Merchant Navy. And my mom was like, I don't know anything about it, and I don't really care.

other women treated around you? Right, because it's like and my dad's answer was normal, I guess, like he'd never really thought about it, and so when she probed him on what normal meant, he gave her an answer that she liked, right, And they went on some dates and stuff and then met in like September of one year, and then they got married in November of that year, and they had like a three day long Indian wedding.

don't remember anything about it. But I think my mom going from like the hustle and bustle of Delhi, and my mom in particular, she grew up in South Delhi, which is very posh and think like Southiera turned up a lot. That's where she kind of grew up. So she kind of she went from that to Port Lincoln and was just like, what have I done? Like I have an infant with I've got a husband who is a man I barely know, and have a child to really because they hadn't you know, they hadn't been together

ten years. Then they get a house and they get engaged, and it's not that story, right, It's like, literally two years ago I met this man and now we are on the other side of the world. Pre Internet, pre everything. The only way to contact India was five dollars fifty a minute phone calls.

and that. But we didn't stay in Port Lincoln for long. I think we stayed there weeks, if not months at most, and then we settled in Melbourne after a while. And yeah,

I grew up in the suburbs of Melbourne. We moved around a little bit from like you know, one bedroom flat to another until my parents bought a home and then shortly after my little sister, Nikki was born, And I wouldn't have known if not for the benefit of hindsight and as you experienced well growing up, that we didn't have a lot of money, that we lived in absolutely like out outer suburbs. Like I had no concept because as a kid, you don't really know any of

this stuff, right. Your world is just your immediate kind of zone around you. I remember seeing people with substance misuse issues. I remember seeing like the effects of alcohol and other drugs around the community, of violence and other things,

but not really knowing that as being anything abnormal. The experience of like overt discrimination and violent discrimination, like you know, getting beaten up, getting black eyes, going to the school nurse's office and they're being sent home because I was injured physically, that was like common, right, that happened often enough that I still remember it. But it wasn't all bad, right,

It wasn't all negative. And I think some people don't get that about like issues like racism or any kind of discrimination, that it's not like a constant thing that's happening all the time. There's like peaks and flows of it. Right, So there's like an incident and then you that becomes part of your psyche and the trauma stays with you

in different ways. And so it was like a childhood that was marred by all of these incidents where like I stopped playing footy because of getting beaten up on the football field, right, and after the third time it happened, I remember going to the tribunal because the other kid got like charged with like punching me because the umpire saw it. And then he, you know, he got led off like and he didn't get in trouble for it.

And I remember my coach driving me home and I have this vivid recollection of that day where he drove me home from the tribunal and the other kid didn't get any like didn't get in for it. And when we got home, I Mum pulled me out of footy, and all I remember is not the injustice of that day, because I was too young to understand all that stuff. But I just remember being fascinated by this guy. He drove this Holden commodore, and I just remember being fascinated by his sports steering wheel.

I just had such negative experiences. And now when I see players of color, you know, making it into the AFL, When I see them like speaking out about elements of racism, and then I see positive responses from clubs, I'm like, that's all we want, is just positive interaction. This isn't about like saying everyone is horrible or bad or making a bigger deal than we need to about things that have happened in the past, but about how we go

forward to make things more positive for everyone. So, yeah, like my childhood was one of those things where there was a lot of a lot of experiences of discrimination, but so many positives. We wouldn't have known Nicki and I that money was tied even though my parents were working multiple jobs and we were in childcare a lot and kind of not seeing doubt as much as we wanted to at times, we didn't feel that absence because the love that we had when they were there was

really present. And as a sister, Nicki was amazing. She is like the most loving person and that some of your listeners might know. She was killed when she was twenty three, and so I didn't get to have her in my life for as long as you know, most people get to have their siblings in their life. But we got lifetimes of love in her twenty three years of life. So feel really fortunate. And I'm just remembering back.

I listened to your episode with Alyssa Healy, who captain a team in Mumbai a few months ago, and you asked me about like some of my you know, some of my work and that people don't start where they where people noticed them, and she talked about how it and what resonated me is that she talked about how people think it just happened overnight, and she was talking about the journey that it took for her breaking down

every barrier as a woman in sport. And what resonated with me is and it says adult saying where it's like it takes ten years to become an overnight success. Oh yeah. And I talk about this with like with others that are in similar spaces where people will notice them,

you know. And I know one of our mutual friends in Maria Fatil twenty twenties Miss Universe Australia and just all around legend and you know we've talked about that her and I and she's also been on this great loreal campaign that I've been working on and we've talked about that, where she's been, you know, chipping away doing such important work, and then all of a sudden people are like, oh my god, you came out of nowhere.

And I never explained this, right, but what I mean is kind of you know, things aren't trendy until they're trendy, and just because you started talking about it ten years ago, it doesn't mean that you had the audience and the platform who were willing to listen ten years ago. But now it seems like you've just you know, propelled onto the scene. But really, you started, as you said, chipping away bit by bit a long time ago, and it's taken you a long time to get there. It never

happens overnight. And Maria and I have spoken about this too as well, that you know, she's been campaigning for a bigger presence and more representation for women of color since well before people were actually ready to action that and before it was more commonly accepted, and before platforms would give her space and airtime to talk about that stuff. But to many people it appears like, oh, she'd just come out of nowhere, But no, she's actually been working

on it for such a long time. And I think that's why I really like tracing back through all the chapters that you had to go through, what you were thinking, what your mindset was like at that time, Like you know, we have more than a few things in common. You went to Melbourne High, I went to mcgrob. You did It's law. I did its law. And I think you know even that itself is of like that was a whole chapter and you had no idea that you were going to end out where you are?

self awareness that like what their strengths and limitations are.

And so for me, my strengths and limitations were understanding that in Melbourne High like I didn't necessarily belong academically, like I didn't do as well as a lot of the others, right, they were like I was surrounded by some just absolute, you know, incredible minds, and I remember like looking at people that I like, my peers, right, same age and everything, and just being like, fuck, you're so smart man, Like how how does your brain do that?

And I just remember going, my brain doesn't do that. So I just gravitated towards the things that I liked, which was like Droot Sandstorm, what an era in organizing high school social So I just did that. That was like, that was my contribution to the school was just get on the sise and organized parties and events, and so I have like fond memories of that, Like one year, did you ever go to a like a social at the Memorial Hall?

like chaos. And then me and a friend got up on the mic and I beatboxed and he freestyle wrapped, and they were like, you can't beatboxed. No, I can't anymore, but I used to try as a kid.

at MCROB. Because of such cultural diversity that like all of a sudden when your ethnic group becomes part of the majority, visibly the script flips a little bit, but it's it's really interesting, Like a lot of the environment that I grew up in around those spaces is what

like and the conversations that we have now. I'm very conscious of any conversations about discrimination, particularly from people in our sort of broad age bracket, have been grounded in a context of we probably said and did this stuff

ten fifteen years ago. Well we know better now because this idea that all my friends, like people my age calling them friends right have the like we've never said or done anything bad is so dishonest, right, Like I grew up listening to doctor Dre like I've had a misogynistic thought in my life.

all collectively better as a result. You know, we're all safer, more inclusive, more, you know, understanding whatever the case is.

so fascinated by it all. But you know, coming back to that idea that you have really been speaking about these topics for so long and in such a way that you've learned and progressed and got it wrong and stumbled, and then you do help other people to be able to feel comfortable to enter this space and start speaking, even if they might make a mistake or say the wrong thing. And I think sometimes people are so scared to say the wrong thing and get canceled that often

they just refrain from discourse at all. And I think you do really well at encouraging people that it's better to try and maybe get it wrong and and learn then to not speak about these things at all. But you also had to start somewhere, and I think again people underestimate you don't just get handed a laureal ambassadorship for an anti harassment campaign the day you decide to

be an activist. You've been chipping away, as you say, And you know, I think it's coming back to that whole pathway thing and all the steps that it took to get here. You've been speaking about these important issues, are particularly domestic violence, since twenty fifteen, and so I know we I don't want to labor this chapter of

your life too much. But as much as you were comfortable speaking about, you know, can you take us through how it all happened, how things changed for you, and how you did start speaking about things like domestic violence. You turned a huge and unimaginable trauma in your life into something so positive.

make sense of it? And the reason I say that doesn't make sense to me is like, we're biological siblings, so we buy default share fifty percent of the same DNA, right, So at like I genuinely felt, and this sounds hippie and whatever, but I felt like a part of me died right with my sister. But as I learned over time through different forms of advocacy, it's that talking about my sister giving life to her in death as well as countless others, was my own way of healing, and

it's my own way of recovery. And I've very recently actually just been speaking at and hosting this conference for the National Trauma and Recovery Conference related to Domestic family and Sexual Violence, and it sort of dawned on me literally while I was on stage that that's what a lot of this is that this is actually my own form of healing and recovery and trauma, and it was like giving meaning to what my family's experience. It's what

Nicki went through. But initially it didn't start there in twenty fifteen. It actually was born out of a sense of injustice and a sense of anger, and particularly the way that Niki's death was reported, on the way that it was handled in the courts, particularly initially, And the vindication that we got as a family was that the judge who was responsible for sentencing the man who killed my sister said in his comments that nothing Nikki de Joula did in any way whatsoever contributed to what you

chose to do to her. And I felt vindicated by that because we live in a society that often blames victims, particularly women, but all victims for what happens to them. Right, It's like what were they wearing, or why were they out late at night or all of these things, right, even if it's just like behaviors like cat calling, right, which is obviously very very different to like taking a weapon and physically harming someone, right, but still has an

impact on the person who is subjected to it. So it was born out of this sense of injustice, just and anger. Initially that I was like, hang on a minute,

I want to course correct the record. And I think it's because of the stuff we talked about earlier that might come from this, you know, ancestry of my grandparents being who they are and you know, migrating across borders as refugees and my parents coming and starting again and raising Nicky and I with not much but finding a way to get through and making sure that we had love around us at all times. That I was just like, well,

I don't really know how the Australian media works. I don't really know how powerful these institutions are, but I'm just going to start saying what I think. And sometimes when people come to me now and they're like, how can I become an advocate? I sometimes have to give them the well, I'll always give them honest advice, but sometimes I have to give them the difficult reality of the honest advice, which is not everyone's going to like what you have to say. You know, particularly if they

belong to certain institutions. They're not going to enjoy being told that their inherent problems with the institutions because they take it as a personal upfront, and so I try to separate the institutions from the people behind them, as well as the behaviors from the person. And I've made mistakes at different times, so I think, you know, in certain instances, I've gone very hard on certain people where I reflect and go, oh, I don't know if I

helped there as much. But I find myself now at a place where it's like I'll always try to, as you said, invite a conversation to get towards progress. Like we're living in a time where there are so many broad social issues that are touching on all of us in this country that it's like we don't have time

or space to be more divided. We need to sort of find the common ground and the common human experiences and build from that, particularly after COVID, where so many of us were separated from the people that we love, just a lot of in our homes or going through whatever struggles we were going through. And so I don't know, it's just been this whole journey where since twenty fifteen,

I've just tried to speak out about what matters. And initially it was borne out of a sense of anger and injustice, and then over time as I did the work to come to terms psychologically with the fact that yes, Nikki was murdered. No, it was not my fault. The blame lies squarely with the perpetrator. No, it was not

my family's fault. In spite of all the criticisms that we've received online and some of the trolling that we've been sent as a family, particularly at the kind of that's been directed at my parents in particular, has been really hurtful to me as their child, because it's just like, I know who they are and they're not responsible for what was done to Nikki, and yet this kind of public perception that occurred, and as well, as you know,

coming from a fairly tight knit South Asian Indian community, this look of like pity that my parents got initially really bugged me because it was like, why do you feel like sympathized with them but don't feel pity for them, Like they're not They're not a basket case now. And it's been really kind of strangely along the way, and it's a lie in many ways, Sarah. It will be a lifelong journey, right because that grief of losing someone before their time. I grieve now, not for myself. I

grieve for the missed opportunities for Nikki. You know that she recently would have had her thirtieth birthday, and I just think, Wow, I remember back to my thirtieth birthday and being on the cust were thinking, Oh my god, I'm thirty. I haven't done anything with my life. Oh my god, I'm also thirty. I've still got ages. All.

it's not the end. Yet. Whereas my city had a sense of ambition and a quiet conviction, right, she would present us very shy, very quiet, and almost meek at times, and like she had no self belief, and at times she suffered from crippling self doubt. Yet the flip side of that was because she was almost like a born performer right than performing arts. And she was performing from the age of like four.

all around, like different European cities. The first time they came to Australia and with Michael Bouble and they formed the Melbourne Scholt Rod Laver Arena afterwards because they were small then, right, but big enough that Michael Boublay took notice of them.

hand and was like, Hi, I'm Nikki. I'm a choreographer, and I reckon that we could work together and really like hone in on you know, these steps as part of your thing, and I reckon there's a whole market out there for you that is. And I was just like sitting there in the background and be like, who

the fuck does this kid think? She was like yeah, Like and they're like seven black dudes from Brooklyn, and after Nicki's death, they were touring in their own right across Australia and they actually came over to my parents' house for dinner. And they're like seven black dudes who and five of them came for dinner and they occupy

space right like in a room. They've got their presence as well as their physical stature of being like six foot three and broad and obviously you know, being performers, having commanding voices and stuff. So it was like this really fascinating thing of just like them being there in our home. But before that all of that, Nicki just went up to these guys that she didn't know, introduced herself and they were like, yeah, okay, we'll be in touch.

And then what happened after Nicki's death was hearing from the leader of the group, Roger, about how my sister was to work with right and if anyone interested in their work, Like one of their clips went viral where they were on the French subway in Paris singing phil Collins in the air tonight all like a power Yeah, that's I think that one of the most famous clips.

But yeah, she like just work with them, And it was really credible hearing from him and a couple of others in the group about my sister as a performer and as a choreographer in her work, because to me, she was like my little sister. She's an annoying, little brady, lovable kid and she always will be. But the other side of her was this kind of like professional, intelligent, ambitious woman And so for me it's like, yeah, my advocacy was born out of just wanting to give voice

to that. And with all of the people whose stories I've shared, it's never about the circumstances in which they died, because often people will say to me, I know your sister's story or I know xyz person's story, and I just think, and I never correct people because I don't think this is what they mean, but what they're really saying, and I don't think they mean this, but what they're saying is I know how your sister died, not who she was. Who she was was twenty three years of

her life. The act of violence that took her was not even her own. It was someone else's choice, right, And I think the stories of people are far more than the circumstances of their death. And I think this about everyone, right. I think about this in terms of, like I've just seen lately the ovarian cancer awareness and people say, oh, you know, I know your aunt's story or I know this, and it's like an aspect of it, yeah, like the most traumatizing aspect of it. But the real end,

the end, Yeah, the reality is the life. And I think we do well to share more of the stories of the lives of these people, because when you look at the collective loss to society, and what I grieve in Nikki is not my own loss. It's the loss of all of the opportunities for her. And I think about that for everyone, whether it's through violent means or any inadvertent early death, accidental cancer, violence from another person, it's just like, oh shit, like they could have done

anything they wanted if they had the time. And so it's really changed a lot for me. It's changed little stuff, Sarah, where I don't My grandfather died recently, had an extended family member passed away just yesterday in and like it's totally I don't feel sad like I feel. I feel a sense of loss, like oh, it's a shame, but I feel I don't get sad in the same way because it's the fact that Nikki died early and the fact that she died under such horrible circumstances, like real

painful violence circumstances. If someone lives a full life like my grandfather did and others who have passed away recently, I just feel happy for them. I'm like, you've got to do everything that life has to offer. Yeah, and I missed them, and I'm sad for you know them and all of that, but I'm not sad in the same way. It's different, you know. I'm like, I feel gratitude more than anything. You know, if you get to live a full life.

role with Laurel and the campaign you've done recently. But what I think you're also a wonderful advocate for that isn't spoken about as much, just because it's obviously not the main focus is the fact that on this show we talk about joy, right, which is sometimes quite an artificial thing to talk about in a world where this kind of thing does happened, this level of trauma and violence can happen. And I often say to people, when you look back, all the dots often connect that led

you to where you are today. And you know, it's really easy to sort of understand life's ups and downs when you think everything happens for a reason and you win or you learn, and everything shapes who you are. But in a situation like yours, it's not really appropriate to say everything happens for a reason because that doesn't apply when there's some of life's greatest tragedies and horrors.

But yet you have become a person who can still feel gratitude who can still front up to work, who has obviously had challenges in grief and mental health, and it hasn't been rosy. But the fact that you can articulate gratitude after going through something like that and then be an ambassador that helps others through their journey is

quite remarkable. So the big question for you that not many other people in the world can answer, is when something like that does happen and that is not a yay, There is no I'm sure for many years of your life, joy was not even a question. To have come through that now and be able to embrace speaking of things in a joyful way or find happiness in knowing that that will never go away. This is a lifelong journey. As you said, you still find joy day to day.

How do you do that? How have you done that?

I know that you talk about this with others, and so I was really nervous about being asked this because I genuinely I struggle with this, not because of my I mean in part because of my sister's death and the work that I do and the retraumatizing effects of that, but also because I'm someone who lives with complex mental health conditions around depression, et cetera, and medicated, and at one point during the lowest parts of my life, made an attempt at a suicide attempt, and thankfully not in

that space. I'd all want to live a very long time, and seemingly in my family have the genes to do it. Everyone lives for a very long time. So sorry to the haters, but I'm sticking around. But like, yeah, it's something that I grapple with daily, and it's and I don't know where it comes from, but I grapple with it in the sense of like sometimes if I feel too happy, I almost feel guilty, right, and it's because

of all of the I think. It's like an intergenerational thing where I look at, like the sacrifices my grandparents my parents have made, right, and I'm like, like, there were years stretches of years where my dad didn't take a holiday, and I swear, I swear that I've inherited that where I'm like, I could go on holiday or I could keep working because hard work is important. And it's weird how they're like, do what you love and

you'll never work it down your life. You will work right, you'll love what you do, but you will.

And for me, I derive joy from a lot of the littler things now, like a lot of the because I've found that all of the bigger things, whether it's material purchases or other aspects of life, don't really add up to the promise, right Like I could go to the shops buy something and I'd feel happy for a while,

but it will fade. Whereas if I have an amazing experience, like an incredible dinner with friends, or if I do something that I feel genuinely connected to someone, like I'm enjoying this conversation with you, right, this will be It's also joy for me today is the opportunity that after a long time, we get to have a conversation and I'm going to message like five or six friends afterwards and be like, hey, I got to talk to Sarah Davidson.

She's absolutely lovely. Like that that I think gives me joy right lately and this is so pathetic right I downloaded the Tetras app to my and I'm currently in the top five Australia wife.

Like that's a very simple equation, But there's so much to explore here, Like the guilt is something people don't often talk about.

of my health with me. So the sense of like joy for me, like I've almost reframed it as like I just want to find contentment, I want to find peace, right, And it's and that is so much harder, I reckon. It's so easy to find ways to get joy because you can get immediate dopamine.

That is like everything is good in the world, Everything is peaceful, everything is good, everything is right in the world.

And I feel very lucky, right, I feel joy in things where like in my work when I'm traveling and I get to be in cabs with different drivers from or an Uber or whatever, different drivers usually from India or Pakistan, whatever, and just hearing about their life, and I just think I'm so lucky because my parents moved here at an age where I got to grow to school here, I got to experience all of the benefits of an Australian education, which is not without its faults,

but I got so many opportunities. And a lot of these people, particularly men, you know, and some of them around my age are a bit younger. I'm in very different circumstances, very very different circumstances, and for me, it's like, well, my life could have been that. Like there's a brown dude, I'm a brown dude. We're not that. We're not that, yeah,

but we're not that dissimilar. I just feel lucky. I feel lucky, Like honestly, I just feel lucky, like I feel lucky, and I feel a sense of gratitude that I'm still around and that I'm going to keep being around. And joy comes in different ways where there are times where I feel content and happy and I'd rather chase that than just go I need to do the next thing.

I need to do the next thing, and I feel very One thing I do feel happy about is that I'm at a point there where if I drop dead tomorrow, I don't plan to, but if I drop dead, I would know that I've tried to do everything possible to you know how they say, right, like when your parents are trying to like inculcate values into you, like give back more than you take, etc. Like I've tried to do that, tried, Like I've actively tried to do that. So you know, if I've failed, then at least I've

given it a really good crack. So I just I mean, I don't know, and I'm really sorry because it's not giving potentially like the best answer.

levels of trauma, different like whatever it is. It's that contentment and satisfaction and fulfillment, like those kind of words and emotions. That's the complexity of happiness and success.

what does that mean? And it changed me because it was like, yeah, like why am I doing this? Is this external validation or is this personal fulfillment? And it was this journey where, like I was talking about earlier, that I realized that some of my advocacy is borne out of my own healing. And I say no to more things now than I say yes to, because I'd learned that the opposite was burning myself out, it was taking on too much, and it was often doing things

for other people's fulfillment rather than my own. And so I found joy in a sense of creating boundaries, finding balance, and figuring out a way that feels authentic to myself as best as possible.

Actually the most meaningful measure for me of joy is am I meeting what those people defined as their biggest regrets?

measure of having a good life. But having said that, you have turned your passion, and as you mentioned, it started from kind of your own journey and your own healing,

You've gone on to do some incredible work. And I was reading one of your articles the other day about how you know, women still in this day and age often have like I always have my keys in my fingers when I'm walking back to my car at night alone and seventy eight percent of US women experienced harassment on the street even now, So this campaign that you've become an ambassador for one of my favorite companies to work with, the Larel and their anti street harassment campaign

in April, and this is one of the things that you have said yes to and just been on a national tour with. What does that now mean to you? How do these campaigns now like this is your work Now it's gone from something that happened to you just something that you have turned into an amazing, amazing platform.

September twenty twenty two when it first went live. And at the time, it was like this whole kind of national really social media driven awareness raising campaign around anti street harassment training giving people and there's this thing called the five D's and it was giving people like a way to be effective by standards and safely intervene and

the key word there is safely right. And so when we had conversations after the success of last year, we talked about the fact that this happens in person, so how do we create something where we go to people where they are And we came up with this idea of doing this National University Tool, which we've just wrapped up, and we went to universities around the country where there was this just amazing panel that I had the real pleasure and privilege to curate with people like our friend

Maria and thet Til and Chanel Contos activist and campaigner, as well as others April Elaine Horton, Alira Potter, we had a really a Saint Clair. We had Hannah Ferguson, the survivor and advocate. Saxon Mullins was in Sydney as well, and so there was this whole kind of mix of women and non binary people with living experiences of street harassment as well as expertise educating university students right on

campuses and in exchange. Laier was very gracious to give them free products and you know, they get their picks taken and be part of a movement. And it was really empowering. You know, a brand that is about women's empowerment for them to go into these spaces and actually create an inclusive environment where Planned International Australia as their charity partner doing this education and giving people avenues to

safely intervene. For me, it was like taking so many of the boxes of like big brands get a bad ramp, right, and some of them for very valid reasons when you hear about some of their care for practices, right, But here was an example of a brand going we see that this is a problem. Our mission is women's empowerment.

If seventy eight percent effectively eight and ten right women are experiencing this issue, are we just gonna do something tokenistic or are we going to actually put our money where our mouth is and do something in their backset

and they did that ladder right. They actually were like, hey, here are things you can do right that will allow you to intervene in the moment, but also work towards systemically changing the culture where this happens to women and none of the onus is on like what is a woman wearing or why is she got you know so much makeup on or anything like that. It's like the woman or the non binary person or the man, whoever it is, can do or say or be whoever they are.

They can be the most authentic self and it is everyone else's job to respect their expression of self. And to me that was like so important, and so when they were like, would you like to be involved, It's like, absolutely, let's do it. And it was such a resounding success.

And I think where hoping to get twenty thousand people trained up by the end of the year and expand into different settings, whether it's like music festivals or other festivals, and really make it something that becomes the kind of thing where Lorial can do something that changes the statistics.

And I think they're really committed to doing that, you know, And I really value that because we live in a society where and this is why some of my work around sporting clubs I really enjoy is because we have to go where people are this idea that we're just going to get people to change their behavior in an echo chamber at a conference or an echo chamber of

online chatter. That's really important, don't get me wrong, And I participate in it actively because that's where I learn things, you know, it's where you learn the statistics, that's where you learn what's going on. But you can't change hearts and minds and behavior and actions or the future just in one room at a summer. It has to infiltrate into the outside world. And that's where like these settings

are so important. Sport cosmetics retail everywhere you know that people that people across Australia go, And it just made sense to do it at a university as well, because people are concarding to come of age, they're strying to figure out have those early interactions and if we embedded at that point, you know, and if the scope to do it in high schools in the future, it's just such important, crucial work and I think there's a real opportunity there and I'm really grateful that Loreal are a

brand that wanted to back it, because a lot of there are a lot of brands that have the ability to do something like that, but many of them are too scared. And I think it's part of what you said before, cancel culture, fear of doing something wrong, right, But you know, there's that saying like the worst course of action is in action, and that's where we are with three harassment, that doing nothing is worse than trying to do the right thing to safely intervene. And so

this is such an easy thing to do. And I'd love for all of your listeners, Sarah, to jump online at the Loreal stand Up website and if you if you can pop the links in the show notes, like get people doing that training online, because I know how much you care about this issue as well, and we

want a safer future. Like I just think of all the women I know who are you know, our age you included, who have had awful experiences either in their present or their past, you know, and definitely in their past. Who I don't want that to happen to young girls and young women now. I don't want them to go

through the same shit. As well as that, I don't want young men in particular to think that's the only model available to them, Like I really want young men to think, hey, there are other ways to assert my masculinity, to show that I am a man in this world where it's complicated and tricky and who knows what being a real man is anymore? And I want to be able to feel a sense of my masculine identity in a way that doesn't diminish the experience of other people.

And I'm very much a work in progress in that, so I don't come to anyone from a position of being like I know everything. It's more like, hey, let's all learn together on the journey. And I think lorel supporting this program we Plan International Australia and the stand Up against three harassment training is such a crucial part of all of that.

well outside the necessary scope before they do. But you know, I've had the joy as well and privilege of being associated with like the for Women in Science campaign that's giving scholarships to female scientists that it's the only scholarship in the world that they're allowed to use on childcare, which is a huge barrier to like females empowerment in science.

Like they're covering so many areas that are not just you know, it's I think the phrase they're using is beauty that moves the world, which is, yeah, there's beauty as like this entry level to the company, but they use that massive global impact for other causes. That's what makes me really excited to be an ambassador when you get to do stuff like that.

love Ralph Lauren the man. I'm just perennially obsessed with Ralph Lauren and their beauty products are all under the Laureal umbrella. And so when they approached me, I was like, yes, I love Ralph Lauren. Immediately, Yes, immediately, yes, questions later, immediately, yes, yes, right, I agree with what you're saying. I think it's such a pertinent and a student observation by you. Right, Like beauty that moves the world, there's ways to create change

that exist within the systems that are around us. Like as much as everything we could just you know, start all over again, Well we can't. It's too late for that. So let's do good with what we have. And I think they're doing that, And my hope is that in coming months and years we can take it and be something that's even bigger and bolder and more ambitious. And there's certainly the appetite for it as well as the

need to do it right. There is a real kind of need in Australia for this, when seventy eight percent of women experienced tree harassment, and the other part of that is seventy a percent of women are experiencing it, what percentage of other people are perpetrating it? And how do we support them so they.

And so he's said on record, like when people asked how do you pronounce it, he says, like the.

So it's finding the way to stay on brand and on theme, but do something new every year, right, And I was like, that is a challenge, right, because you've got to stay within a parameter. And so sort of like the the mass respect that he's cultivated with different people from different backgrounds, you know, like hip hop artists loving his stuff as well as like the well to do of English aristocracy, Like he's sort of you know, you talk about Range, Ralf Florence.

to back it and give money and donate. And I'm like, wow, that's cool, Like and it's amazing how and other organizations struggle with knowing whether to do this, and to their credit, Laureal, we're like, this is a contenous issue, but this is affecting, you know, seventy percent of our market. Right, let's minimum, let's talk about it. Let's go out there and actually

be proactive. And I love that. I love when anyone is just like willing to go and put themselves out there, and for me, like, that's how my advocacy journey started, right. No one knew who I was in that way, but my sister was murdered and I was like, damn, we're going to say something about it and I'm going to make something from it. So I think Loriola doing some amazing work and it's great to be partnered with them, and it's great that you're involved across the brand, across everything.

But you are doing a huge amount to change that and educate us all in ways that I think we all can learn and progress together. So I'm so grateful for you for your time, how patient you were in making this happen. And we've got to do this again because again, like I feel like I covered like chapter one of one hundred, we should do like a full series, just like Turung chapter one to Urung chapter two.

definitely the highlight of my day today. And for any of your listeners that are stuck around this long, thank you for letting me go along your walk or whatever you're doing, you're tripping the car wherever you listen to this podcast, because I'm just really grateful right that people actually care enough to listen to things that I have to say, because there's enough amazing content out there these

days that you could easily just avoid mine. So thank you so so much, Sarah, and thank you to everyone for listening. I really appreciate it.

keep spreading his amazing work. I'll include links in the show notes as I mentioned, to some mental health and other important resources should any of you feel the need to reach out at any time. Never hesitate. It is a strength, not a weakness. Look after yourselves and each other, and we will be back next week with more yeays of our lives with ache, and until then, I hope you are seizing your ya