Seize the Bébé // The Juggle with Genevieve Day

the Baby. I know I can't help myself if you guys all know me by now, but it just makes me smile every time I say it or read it, which is very on brands. I'm going to stick with it. I just felt I'd been copying and pasting some ted talk length answers on socials about various aspects of adjusting to mum life, and I felt that the fuller answers that I've been giving people needed somewhere to.

couple of weeks. You might have been able to tell from my socials, so it's very close to home right now, and you know, I love to get a bit vulnerable on here, particularly in real time when it's still happening, and you're getting kind of how I really feel, rather

than hearing about it when it's all resolved. Secondly, one of the mum role models that I turned to often, and incidentally also my manager, Genevieve Day, who is in herself a huge part of how I maintain any kind of juggle, just released her brand new book called The Juggle, featuring interviews with some of our very own incredible past guests on the topic. So a conversation on the Juggle

just seemed meant to be. I've covered parts of how I've been balancing work and mum life in various episodes so far, and I actually recall my answer in an earlier episode being that I haven't really felt an identity split or pull between my mum or work identity yet jokes on me how quickly our babies grow, but also how quickly you can go from relatively copy and high on indoor for and hormones too suddenly not so much.

And I've recently felt much more of a split between wanting more time for my career but also wanting to be with Teddy twenty four seven at the same time. It's like that meme where you kind of want to be a city goal but living in the country but working full time, but also meditating all day and doing nothing, and like, that's me. I'm so confused, and that's the juggle that's feeling that split. It definitely is happening, and

the way I resolve that tension changes every day. And I'm so sorry to those who only listened to the earlier episode what I said that I didn't have that struggle, because I absolutely do. One thing I've really had to grapple with is letting go of perfectionism at work now that there's much less time to play with. So sadly you don't get the nice new intro that I was hoping to organize to accompany the new segment. I was going to do our CZ eight. People call it the

CZA rap, which is so funny to me. It's not a rap, but I was going to do a new one for this new segment. But you'd be waiting all year for the segment otherwise, so you're just going to have to stick with the original. I also feel like

I got so distracted by Jen's wisdom. In this one, we kind of venture into sleep and feeding anyway, and then I'm not sure that I clearly laid out my specific version of the juggle to answer your questions about like the structure of the day and Nanny's and all that. It literally makes me want to come out in hives not answering questions because I hate not doing things properly. But again, that's the juggle of just doing my best and hoping that that represents in itself exactly what this

episode is all about. I'm just going to put it out anyway. I hope you enjoy it, and please let me know your thoughts on sees, the baby and what you want next. I'm pretty sure the next episode will be on sleep, because there have just been so many questions about that and it's very current for us. But of course I will also include links to Gen's amazing book in the show notes. If you don't already know by the end of this episode, you'll well and truly know why you need a copy. And it's such an

incredible guide on everything related to the Juggle. Jen my love, welcome back to the show.

then I'm kind of like, what about that evolution? And so often those stories don't get told of like what happens next?

folog you six months later. September twenty twenty four has just passed, marking one year of you navigating the juggle, and you celebrated by birthing your third baby, your incredible new book that just launches this week now actually named The Juggle.

the book. It was so special to kind of launch that in that same stage of life of being like, I mean, my rhythm now with parenting and motherhood and work, and then I'm launching this book talking about all those things, and so kind of a poetic timing ought to happen in that September chunk.

mother and watching you juggle motherhood with business. I can't say how many times I've called you a voice noted, asking questions about Nanni's and burnout and working in the same business as your husband and all of those.

this beautiful blog that can't do anything yet. And you know, I think that was really great for them for my friends going through it or about to go through it, like Okay, cool, you're finding this hard to thank goodness you're saying that.

and their own journey too. And that's kind of really where the book came from, is I was having these copies with them being like, how the hell are you doing it? I'm pregnant, I'm terrified of having issues between Korea and motherhood, and am I going to give up everything I've worked so hard to build? And they were so wonderful and sharing their story with me that I'm like, this has to live somewhere for other women to be exactly like you say, not feel so alone themselves.

been the hardest I've had since he's been born. In

terms of the juggle. You and I have both found different parts of our journey quite difficult, and you know, we'll go into a little bit more about my juggle later, but for you, I know you found that early newborn phase extremely challenging and difficult to sort of say that, whereas I was one of those people who probably made you feel bad when you were in that phase because I was sort of like, oh, it's so much easier that I thought, Oh, it's just so magical, which is

genuinely how I felt. It was really magical. I think I just had really sort of realistic expectations being one of the last of my friendship group to have a baby, So I sort of found the juggle a lot easier at the beginning because the people in my workplace were you. You were so good at navigating it all. I had so much advice and support. But it's, you know, the past couple of weeks that I've had a massive breakdown. So it's just so funny that this is when this

particular episode is all coming together. And I'm so excited to share your book because I read the early manuscript when I was going through all this Oh my god, what have I done? All that fear that we're used to dealing with in our careers but not in motherhood before.

and it doesn't mean that at all. And I think a large part of it for me too, using the book as a resource, Like I went to my mother's group and the women there were so gorgeous and so friendly and warm, but they were all in their own journeys and they most of them had like twelve months off work, which wasn't my narrative, Like I had to go back super early, and I didn't really feel seen in those circles, and so I felt alone, like am

I doing the right thing? But then I go back to the book and the conversations people are saying, yeah, I went back at three months, or I went back earlier, or I was emailing from the delivery room, and you're like, okay, cool, they're eating steptrum there, like it's okay to fall somewhere in that spectrum and we're all worried about doing the

wrong thing right. But then everyone has different like ebbs and flows of their rhythm with it, of what they're going to thrive out, what they're going to challenge, and yeah, it's crazy, and it's so funny that ours definitely fell on different sides of that pendulum.

food or their exercise. We're sort of happy to accept, you know, everyone does their own thing, and what suits you won't suit someone else. But for some reason, I think because parenthood is so personal, it's like the one area where there's the unsolicited advice, how offended we all get, Like we take everything personally even when it's not meant that way, but then sometimes it is meant that way, Like it's.

thirty nine weeks. Yeah, why did I do so, and then you continued to write an entire book during your like early sort of first months of motherhood. So talk to us about, yeah, the beginning of I'm going to write a book in this time.

which is complete bs as well. And I was even feeling that way in pregnancy because a lot of part of my job is to be front facing and then also to sign new talent and then go out and get new clients for us, and I thought, I have to show them that I'm still devoted even though I'm pregnant. And it was a bit of a barrier during my pregnancy because I was a physical reminder that I was about to step away, right. I would rock up to these meetings there's coffee catchups with brands, a massive belly,

and they'd be like why are you here? Literally that's what was like vibat and what someone said. They were like, what are you doing here? And I was like, I'm

only thirty six weeks. This is fine. With the TV show as well, like when they asked me to host it, I had a genuine fear they would never ask me again if I said no. And that's something that I definitely explore in the book, is that like scarcity mindset as women that we're not going to get these opportunities again, that we've fought tooth and nail to have a seat at the table and if we step away for any reason,

but especially to have children. But those opportunities were dry up, and so I wasn't willing to say no. I filmed that and I was literally nine months pregnant, and I look ridiculous. Everyone was very kind on the day, but like looking back, I'm like, oh, that's that's a very pregnant person on the camera there.

because now I have to be out there. And I think one of the common themes that came out through all your beautiful guests in the book was that when you're a business owner, the one thing that's different from maternity leave. And I want to talk about like the mechanics of the juggle and how people actually structure their leave and how much they take and when they do nannies and stuff, because that's also sort of really important, But the common theme is that when you have maternity

locked in. There's at least an element of security that you can face motherhood as motherhood, and then your job is kind of there at the end you come back to it, and yes there's identity splits and whatever, but when you work for yourself, it is such a momentum game. You sort of think if I get off this like roller coaster, then I'm never going to get back on and everyone's going to hate me, and even now you.

I literally email guys just to be fully transparent. I email Jen once or twice a week saying I physically don't feel well enough to do this job or go to this event because you know, Teddy hasn't been sleeping, but I think I should because what if everyone thinks

that I can't do this as a mum. So yeah, I kind of almost delegate to you the like pros cons list because I feel like I'm irrational and I'm like, Jed, do you think I'm going to drop off the face of the earth if I don't say yes to this thing?

And for me, it also you know, accumulated in a sense that I couldn't work as many hours like I used to just look at possibilities as just a little bit of hard work. So I was like, you know, I can do xyz. I'll have takes is ten more hours of me this week, but I don't have those

hours anymore. And then I realized that, like, I didn't actually miss out on anything by having a baby and stepping away, but the pressure is still there and proving myself and I almost now have the flip side where I'm so hesitant to post too much baby content online or even on the days that I might finish at three pm and pick my sign up from daycare early and go to the park, I'm like, oh shit, if I post this online and people thinking I'm not committed

to my job or my business. So again it's the optics almost in the reverse. It's like I don't want to seem like I'm not committed to my work enough. But then if I'm shown to be out at night at work events and going to things and traveling to Sydney for jobs I sometimes have to do, then everyone's like, well, why don't you with your baby? So I feel like

that never goes away. But I definitely learned that like that pressure and that scarcity mindset does ease up because there's those clear examples that like, actually, you're going to be okay. And I wish I could really time travel

and tell myself that I know you'd be similar. But I've done things where, you know, I did a Channel seven news thing about social media, and I had my mum and Henry in the next room, and the journalists were so understanding that like if he cried out and made noyiage, like it's okay, We'll just recorded again, like we know you have like a I think he was

seven weeks old at that stage or something. And we actually signed some incredible new talent to the agency who were mums themselves, and they loved the fact that I understood them, and so it almost became like a superpower that I could tap into that extra empathy and understanding. So while I was so afraid of missing out of things, it then actually became so much more gained on the other side of that. Plus you get a beautiful baby.

a whole different planet. Like everyone who's had kids crosses over to planet parent and lives there and understands. They just get it, what it feels like, what it looks like.

And I actually felt the need to issue a formal apology to all of those friends because when I wasn't living on that planet, i'd interacted with them just without having any idea what it took them to leave the house or how I could be useful or understand their time constraints, And the word busy means something different, like I just really felt so bad once I finally crossed over. And I think of myself as quite an empathetic, intellectual person, but even what I imagined it would be like, it's

still nowhere close to it actually feels like. Another thing that also came out across every no matter what the juggle looked like for every single woman, including yourself in the book, is that no one had traditional maternity leave. Everyone went back conventionally extremely early, and almost everyone, particularly if they've had second children, regret that a little bit and have a little bit of guilt. Maybe wouldn't change it, but just wish that they had not felt so much pressure.

So I want to talk to you about the fact that you didn't necessarily love the newborn phase, the guilt to even say that, the feelings of failure that that brought up. You write a lot about that in part two of the book. Yeah, because I think that's a really big thing that motherhood mothers in any not just in business mothers, no matter what their juggle looks like they feel this like incredible guilty if their journey doesn't look how they think it should totally, and.

you know, like I'm such a prepared individual. I've gone out and pre bought all the nursing bras, the breast pump, the silverrette nipple covers, like I had all the creams. I was like, oh, my nipples are going to crack, so I have to buy this amazing ointment and like I had it all ready to go because I just thought this will be a given right. And then my labor was a little bit prickly. I lost over a

leader of blood. I also have PCOS, so my hormones are already a bit funky and a factor of those I mean, we'll never know the reason why, but that's what the doctors say potentially could be part of it. I just had no supply. He also didn't latch. He had no interest in me, probably because I had no milk for him. Yeah, I'm like fair enough, little kid,

Sorry about that. But I was in the hospital and the lactation consultants they're just they were awful to me, if I'm really honest about it, Like they were shocking. They were like, you want to give your baby the best start in life, so don't you want to try

as hard as you can. And I'm there, like I've got strangers milking my breast and I was put on medication the time I helped my supply and I was pumping six times a day for like thirty minutes each and then the luctation consultant told me because I wasn't doing it eight times a day, I was trying to cut corners, I know. And that's the thing. It's like, there was just so awful, awful advice to just like

push through. And it was literally like trying to get blood from a stone, and I just would get like ten meals each time. And it's so funny because even now I see, like, I remember you posted on the weekend that you were pumping at the fit Her at your like speaking gig, and I saw like the amount that you had expressed then, and even that still I'm like, oh my gosh, I just I've never seen that much

milk in my life. And even though again not personal, nothing to do with me, but I still look at that and I'm like, oh, I just just wasn't my journey. So that was really hard in those early weeks. I tried for six weeks to pump, but I could give him like one bottle a day would be my breast milk, put those tiny ten meals each couple of hours over like six punths a day and giving one bottles worth just sixty meals at that time, and then the rest

was formula. It was so disheartening because again, go to mother's group and everyone's feeding their babies and I've got to, like, you know, shamefully go to my bag and get my formula tin out and like I'll just feed my baby. Just give me a second, and I'm like mixing it together. And so that was really really tough because again the expectation of motherhood is like it's a natural thing, and I felt like I wasn't good at labor. I felt

like I wasn't good at breastfeeding. It's hard because I also had these lactation consultants say to me, well, if you're going to feed in with a bottle, make sure that you do all the feed so you still have a connection with him because you're not breastfeeding. And so I had it in my head that like, Okay, well I have to have a connection. I'm not going to have a connection because I'm not feeding him naturally in

inverted commas. So I think that was a really big contributing factor of me finding those early weeks really hard. I also because I lost so much blood. I was just so drained. It had no energy. I was depleted straight away. And then because through labor there was a lot of pushing and he was stuck, I had a lot of pelvic floor pain, and so even like changing his nappy, I found it too painful to stand up for that period of time. So it was a lot of factors. It made that not a like joyous time

for me. I couldn't really go for a walk that far. And then he also hated the prem He hated the car seat, and so it was just stressful, like I was stuck at home with this baby that I didn't really understand, and I felt a bit like I couldn't be everything this baby wanted me to be, Like I didn't feel like a natural mother in that sense. It's funny when he hit like I think it was four or five months, and they start giving you a lot

more of facial expressions and reactions. And even when he started crawling and he would like crawl up to me, I felt like, well, for the first time, this baby's actually choosing me, because in every other point in time, I wasn't the one keeping him alive. I wasn't the one that he needed. And of course there are many benefits and I'm like the queen of pro formula like

formulas the bloody best. And it meant that my husband could feed and my parents would look after him, and it meant I could go into the office other people could keep him alive. But yeah, those moments where he could look at me and smile or crawl up to me and choose his mum to be the one that gets in those are really the breakthrough moments for me

of like, okay, yeah, yeah, this is cool. Like I'm into this now because I feel like it's a give take relationship and not just you know, this little gorgeous blog where I couldn't really like crack the code.

In fact, as soon as I posted that photo, I don't know if you saw, the immediate next slide was guys. So many people have messaged me saying about the numbers of meals. I usually blur them out because I don't want to create any feelings you know, of inadequacy, which I don't mean to. I'm just literally post, you know, sharing my life. But as an advocate for formula feeding, I was adopted, so I was an exclusively formula fed baby.

I don't even know what quality a formula there was in Korea in the eighties, yeah, but probably not amazing. And I think I turned out fine. So I was always ready to formula feed. And it's interesting that as soon as they knew my supply did come in the language of oh, well, you know, this is amazing because now you won't have to use formula kind of things, like we didn't want to mention the F word, but I was like, I'm I'm sorry, like I did actually

because I had a C section. It did take a few days and we gave Teddy formula for the first three until my milk did come in, and I was fine with that, but it was almost like they weren't fine with it, Like they were like, don't worry, it won't be for long, and I'm like, I actually don't

care if it's for long. Like my mum was in the room and she adopted both children who were also in the room, who and Nick's mum was adopted and he was in the room, and we were like, well, we were all formula fed, So like, yes, this is almost offensive the way that you're talking about this.

weeks old because he had pylorixgnosis. And we were too a public hospital because it's where emergency is all connected to it, and they were amazing, but they would not give me like a meal from the hospital because I wasn't breastfeeding, and that was company policy, was only breastfeeding mothers get the meals in hospital, even though I couldn't leave my baby. I'm there to support his surgery. I was there for five days, and it was funny. The nurses would give me like a nod in a wink,

being like, so you're breastfeeding. Yeah, but they would like sneak me spaghetti bolonnais because they're like, well, this is bullshit. I can't believe that we can't feed you as a mother of a six week old baby, and you can't leave this hospital, and so yeah, those the kind of reminders happen all the time, and it's just insane, you know.

I find it hard. Even with a lot of the baby food books that you read when you start solids, they have all these pages and pages devoted to how amazing breast milk is and you know, mix that with your wheat bigs and it's the best start for your baby's life. And I feel like no one was really talking about, well, what if you physically can't do it?

And that's why I really wanted to put it in the book and talk about it, because I didn't know anyone that had a journey like mine, and I felt so alone in those moments and like such a failure, and it does not matter. He's so healthy, like he's thriving, he's ninety eighth percentile weight and hide and walking very early. Might I add very.

a choice for a lot of people. So to frame it that way, like breast is, Like, I'm sure, yes, breast is best in terms of like if you're choosing in a totally neutral landscape, but how shit is it going to make the people feel who can't choose that?

oh I can, so I should be breastfeeding him. But it's also like what about your mental health and if you're going back to work and all these different things, And feeding comes up in the book a lot because a lot of women did transition to formula earlier because it wasn't sustainable pumping at work or pumping during meetings, all that pressure to keep the supply going when they're trying to work a nine to five job, and there's

so many complexities to it. So yeah, and I think at the same time, like, even though I'm very sensitive about it, I always try to understand that, like, no one is posting stuff out there to make me feel bad if it are sharing their own personal experience as well. Yeah, so we all should give each other a literally grace.

But it has become a lot more difficult now that I am doing longer, like I am able to leave him for a little bit longer, as you mentioned, like I was doing my first sort of eight hour days. The longest I'd been away from Teddy before was three hours, so we only had to do one bottle, so I

only had to pump once a day. But the milk that I had in the fridge was so much because I had had to plan like fourteen days out to start to up my supply, knowing that i'd have two days in a row, and that milk goes off if you can't use it after said in two hours, Like there's the logistics, and this comes back to the juggle.

The logistics, no matter what, of being away from your child, especially when you go back early because women in business don't really take maternity leave is an enormous physical load and an enormous mental load. So I want to move on now to like the mechanics of the juggle and the fact that most of the women in the book, yourself, myself took sort of, you know, a couple of weeks to a couple of days of maternity leave, yeah, and then had to work out the juggle of nanny's, daycare,

pumping formula, relying on partners. There's single mothers in there as well who don't have partners to rely on. How you and pat split the load, how did you work out your mechanics? Like what does that look like right now? And then take us through how you kind of got there, like when you first when he first went to daycare, and how you decided that and getting a nanny and all that stuff.

was a really big part of the interview question. I wanted just them to be like, feel comfortable enough to say, yeah, I have a nanny or in some cases, I have three nannies and that's how I do it all. Because it's not sustainable trying to be everything all the time. You'll burn out and be depleted, and then you'll be a terrible mum and partner because you have nothing left to give. So I kind of went into it with those conversations that I already had had about help and

how important it is and how varied it is. I think again, with the formula, it meant that Pat and I could parent fifty to fifty, which was super empowering for him, meaning that I could go to the office or go to a work event, or I had to go to Sydney quite a few times when he was like three or four months old. Knew he'd be okay.

So that was really great to kind of have that parenting structure, and we split it up in a sense where like I would always do the overnight fees and pot would do first thing in the morning, and then we'd try and share it during the day as well, and knowing that we both worked in the business, we could kind of know what's coming up when there are busy things and issues to be sold, and so that like transparency of what we're working on really helped us

divide and conquer as well. And so we did that in a shared load for the first couple of months while I still was like coming back part time ish or like just working when I could basically, and then I actually found it really helpful going back to the office for my mental health. And I loved having that structure returning to work and knowing I had these set days, not being Henry's mum or not being Genevieve day singing incy wincy Spider. They knew I could go back me

day management. I loved being able to like dress up in a cute outfit and go to the office. And so that structure, which was probably January this year, so he would have been like three and a half months old, we had my parents do one day a week. Pat's

mum did one day a week. Pat and I would kind of share the other three days fifty to fifty, and then when he was four months old, we ended up actually getting a nanny for the Wednesday, so Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, we had support for those big like eight hour days in the office or we were away from him for a long period of time, and then we kind of tried to share the Mondays and Fridays with him and both working, and that just became not sustainable because obviously

I got busier, Pat got busier, Henry slept less, and he was getting older and needed more attention, and he is super active, so he was not going to like he also doesn't really sleep at all, so he'd have like a forty five minute now, and so if you don't take him out to the park, like he's going

to combust or something. It got to a stage where I was like, this is not sustainable, and we were kind of bickering with each other of like, well, I need to jump on this phone call, and I've got this conference call or I've got this meeting, and so it just became we needed to put him into daycare. Basically around he would have just been like a eleven and a half months, almost one. So it's been in daycare for like three and a half weeks now and

we've already got gastro and conjunctividis hot. Yeah, love it, And it's a big adjustment. Because we had the nanny, she would also help us by doing the washing and preparing some of the dinners and that kind of thing. But instead I'm back to meal prepping for him on

a Sunday for like three hours. But that's kind of the way that we did all the help and the juggle, and we're so lucky to have family support and we definitely lean on them a lot, especially yeah, if I have to go into state for something, or we've gotten early morning work call with America's time zone or whatever it might be. So that's kind of how we've juggled it, and it definitely has not been perfect, and I think

that we really stucked it up a little bit. We were trying to have work days but have a baby there at the same time, because just for us and the way that he slept and lived and played is like you can't do two things at once with him, and I see people online I have the baby in a really cool playpan, and they're emailing and I'm like, that is just not my real Like, he'll never sleep for more than an hour, so it's like I don't have big, solid work chunks to get done while he's here.

and whatever? And like is it too early to get a nanny or is it, and that's like it's every mum goes through that no matter when, and what juggle, like what mechanics your juggle looks like, but that it's been this evolution towards like realizing that the decisions you've made along the way make you all happier, and that like who cares what it looks like compared to anyone else's Once you make the decisions that work in your life for your family, like everything just works better. But

it takes such a mental hurdle to get there. And it seems like everyone in the book had this kind of aha moment of like stop fighting what you need in your life to make it look like someone else's.

which takes a hour. I'm not doing that, but I still want to be a good mum and still want to give that to him, So I'm just going to outsource that and buy it. And like it is expensive, and you know, those are elements that do cost money, but we had to crunch it down to be like, well, let's just cut back on other areas to afford that because it gives us the time back in our lives where we can then spend our time with our son.

And I won't say that I didn't feel judged that whole time for having a nanny, and like four months is quite young to be getting external help. And you know, he went into daycare at one also because I think he needed more social interaction and he was getting a little bit brady and like not sharing well. And I'm like times I've seen some other kids, but it's so hard, but you're right, everyone's on their own journey and if you just accept what works for you and your family.

of too early or too late. And I think for any mum's listening, our conversation is obviously very weighted towards women who have gone back to work very early, not taking traditional maternity leave. Our guilty is all around how early we do things or how much we sort of end up needing help earlier. But I think at the other end of the spectrum, there are also women who take twelve months maternity leave and they feel like everyone's saying, oh, look how much time you have, Oh, you'll get so

much done. That people think they're lazy because they're at home for twelve months with it. It's like you are raising a child, Like I'm sure their loss of identity is the other way around, like losing their working identity completely and feeling guilt around that. What I find really interesting now is that your struggle and having like kind of gone through that with you was at the beginning feeling guilt about not loving the newborn phase.

work really flexibly. Teddy was a really good sleeper at the start. We have so much family support in the immediate five k's of our house, so we haven't had an annial daycare yet, and it didn't really feel like a juggle, you know. I went back to work like that first photo shoot was at five weeks, but I had, like Nick, my mum and my auntie's there you there who's also a mum and who was going through it at the same time. It was hard, but it wasn't overwhelming.

And then I went back to work at six weeks. Our work is so flexible. Everyone like the TV show came to film my house. I could, you know, do a couple of hours of contact work sort of a week, but then do the rest from home. I actually felt really like, I'm okay at this for the whole first bit, and I was in that newborn bubble where I didn't have sort of guilt or regret or anything, which surprised me.

But what a lot of people who have that experience have is that then they get to sort of four to six.

I didn't, I don't regret that, blah blah blah. A couple of months on, I'm like, I almost wish that I could take maternity leave now. It's like you could take you could not take it for six months and then take it now, because now has been when I found it the hardest and then I feel guilty of in saying that because I'm like, he's such a good baby. I love my child. I don't hate motherhood. I love

being among more than anything. But like you said, I have not been diagnosed with postpartum anxiety or depression, but I would definitely say maybe two three weeks ago. I mean I was pretty much telling you. I was like, Jen, I can't, I can't life, and it was another topic that's so heated and heavy and loaded.

couple of weeks and they resolve. Teddy's kind of went for eight weeks plus, and that was like I was waking up every one and a half hours all day every day for like sixty something days, and then my sort of manifestation of what we spoke about earlier of like I'm still present and available and don't think that you can't book me was just keep going, like just suck it up and don't knowledge that anything's like hard, and just keep selling the story that let you're fine,

until then suddenly I was like I reached this critical point in around seven weeks and I was like.

so it was four and a half months on the dot. Yeah, I'll do a whole separate sleep episode on sort of how we've navigated out of that. But that's when the juggle became a juggle for me, Like suddenly I was I think one of the things I loved so much about your book is that everyone said the narrative that you can.

just can't do it all at once. And I kept trying to do socializing, seeing my friend and not really exercising, but at least like a little bit of outdoors walking, sleeping, being a mom and being a present mum, waking up to him all the time, feeding it back to sleep six times a night, and then going to work a full day, all day every day, and something had to give.

watching Netflix. Wow. Sleep for us was a huge thing, But I feel like, again, I just always spoke about it. I was like, he's a terrible sleeper. He always hated day n apps. He would never sleep in the prem never sleep in the cast. We couldn't go anywhere. And then we did sleep training at four months, and even the sleep training consultant told me, oh wow, I love

a challenge, and he's a challenge. Three to five days was the sleep training like life cycle, and I called her in day five and I was like, come, well, it's still not working, and she goes, Okay, I think it's actually going to be twenty one days. And again everyone has their methods. Is just what we decided to use and what worked for us. But responsive settling. So we left him in the room to cry for a bit and we'd time it and then go back in

after a certain amount of time. But he's the most stubborn determined kid, which I love that about him, Like

he's so independent, he is so strong willed. He would just stand up at the cot and scream and like shake the cot in like stare at the baking auditor, like straight into the camera, and we were like, no, we have to like keep going, and then we'd get in the good rhythm and then he would go backwards and we'd sleep around him again, and so yeah, it took eleven months and a sleep through the night, which at the moment he's been a dream and it's been

like twelve hours of sleep seven till seven beautiful day n apps, forty minute daynaps. But he goes straight to sleep now. But there were periods of time there where I'd be like settling him for an hour with like an audiobook in my AirPods, just like patting his bum, leave the room, go back in, leave, go back in, and then having to try and fit in work around that is truly insane. And yeah, those I think the sleep deprivation also meant that I wasn't coping at the time,

especially in those early days. I feel like so many people do these types of projects when they're out of the woods, right and they say, oh, they get so much better, And even me now with him being one, I'm like, it's okay, Like he sleeps perfectly, it's fine,

and you almost forget that pain. But what I loved about writing the book and doing it in like real time for me was that I would write down my thoughts at four weeks postparton, and then add a bit more at six weeks, and then edit the book at five months and do my final read over at six months old and beyond, and I look back and I think, oh my gosh, this girl sounds like unwell in the head.

But also there isn't there aren't enough resources. I believe in people like in the thick of it saying like, this is so hard and I feel this way totally.

like would tell themselves earlier, which is the reader. That's the person that's earlier them if they could go back and have the chance. And I also want to dedicate an entire episode to sort of again, I kind of wish I'd recorded this when we were more in the thick of the sleep thing, because to give you hope,

it has resolved a lot for us. So anyone listening, if you are in the thick of it, you know that we haven't been, and I promise you that it can get better, but I do sort of wish i'd similar to when we had our pregnancy loss, I sort of shared before we had our happy ending, and that was possibly more powerful. So yeah, but I documented a lot of it, and I will include that in the sleep episode which will come immediately after, because I think

it's probably the most pressing. But one of the things you and I spoke about a lot during that time. I was literally guys calling Jen all the time, being like, tell me about day nannie, tell me about night nannies, tell me about sleep school, Like tell me about all the options on the spectrum?

They need you to just keep going. And it's crazy that there's all these like deceased mothers walking around and fathers as well, but the rest of the world just keeps going, and you're like, how are you guys all just like up and about doing your thing. So it's I think the sleep part is a crazy interrelated part of the coping and juggling totally.

was three weeks postpartum. We put that in before I had the baby, and I had no idea what that meant being three weeks postpartum. When I booked in I was like, of course, I'm amazing, I'll push through. Of course I'll be there. I'll pop into the office. He'll be three weeks old. And so I came in and I think I brought in with me and how was And I did the meeting and I think I was still wearing a nappy myself by that stage even and it was not a good performance review because I couldn't

have prepared properly. I'd had like two hours chunks of sleep and row and you know, I wish I just looked back and said to the people around me, like, I can't give you the level that you deserve based on what I'm operating with right now. Let's reset for this date and then I can, you know, be the better leader for you, or be the better partner for you, or all those kind of things. And so there is power,

I think, and admitting what you're coping with. But you're so right that on a day to day level, people

don't care. And the people on the other end of your email, they don't care that I spent the night on the floor of his room, every three hours, you know, patting his bum to stop screaming, like wading all mums again, all parents understand that and have empathy and like a knowing glance across the room of like, I know what you've been through, but yeah, I think there's a mixture there of like pushing on because the world doesn't stop, but also acknowledging the people around you that like, this

is what I can realistically give you right now.

be my best work. So it's actually in everyone's best interest that we all just kind of like get on the page. And that's so especially for an A type personality who's really like likes to be good at stuff, and we're like twins in that regard. It's the hardest thing to ever say, is I am not doing well, Like.

woman's story in the book. And my biggest takeaway for you because it was your own story interweaved with and I love that you sort of do all the interviews and then you wrap it up with what have we learnt from these and then break it into really clear themes what is your biggest learning, maybe your biggest surprise from interviewing all these incredible women, And then, if it's different, the main thing that you want people to take away from the book except that they obviously have to read

it as well. But if you wanted one thing to come from this episode and the book, what would it be?

valuable as well. And I think what I took away the most was having boundaries, which I know is such like an over there pized word, and part of me hates and people are like, I need to have boundaries. But I was always so committed to those around me and my job and the people relying on me through my agency, and I think that applies to anyone with a career. You'd have you know, direct reports and a boss and everything. I would just be like they would say jump, I'd say how high because it was only

me that that was affecting. It was just my time, right. But then with a baby around, every time that that boundary was pushed, I was missing out in moments with my son, and more and more of those stories that I was told said the same thing, where they were like, you have to put those boundaries in place because clients will push you and work will push you, and you realize it's actually not worth the sacrifice when it does

come at the cost of your family. And you know, I was pushed in my boundaries hours after giving birth, I had to jump into a contract resolution from hospital and then you know, like I said, I lost it almost a leader and a half of blood, and I was, you know, emailing the next day about something because a brand was pulling a sick, bigger contract deal and unfortunately only I had the context helped resolve that. So those

are boundaries that were pushed. And then again coming into the office for those meetings so early on post pardon, and then it just happens all the time right where they think, okay, well it's not your official in the office day, but can you join this meeting It's really important, and you're like, oh, that's my day with my son, but okay, I'll be there. And that was something that came up again and again in the book with these women being like you just have to hold that time

firmly for your family so you can be present. Then then you can be present at work as opposed to like a mismatch where you're not doing either party justice.

And then just all the feelings and conversations around guilt, like I still feel so much mother's guilt, and every single person felt it, even the way step person we spoke about like missing Harvey's first day of daycare because she had a work meeting that morning she just couldn't get out of it, and that still sat with her that she was like, I still didn't know if I made the right choice because what I had to do in the moment, and I have so many of those moments.

It's where I'm like, I feel guilty all the time, and the comparison really gets me in. I remember when we did first Sees the A recording together. My quote that I chose was comparison is a thief of joy because I still wrestle with that all the time, and I look at people who are with their children way more than I am, and you know, some part of

me yearns for that. But and I do feel guilty all the time, Like I feel guilty when I choose not to be with him because it feels like a choice putting him into daycare or giving him to my parents who have him right now, And so that's always really hard. But again knowing I'm not alone in that, because all these women feel the same way, but they know at their core they're building something bigger for their family, or they're doing it for a future for their kids.

Also that they can feel fulfilled and be a great mum and a great partner because they've filled their cup up through their own career ambitions. So I think definitely the guilt helped me so much heal, because that's something I still wrestle with all the time, and something I'll say that men don't get as well. Like my husband's had a number of like family weddings and Bucks parties, has traveled for a weekend away for and good on him.

He deserves that time off too, But I'm always like, oh, do you feel guilty?

be my first mum's weekend away. I'd booked a massage and everything, but he just literally stopped taking the bottle that week, and like my child has to eat, I have the boobs, Like, Unfortunately, I just couldn't make it work, and I had so much guilt around that, and then I still haven't, like it's not conceivable that I could sort of go away without him. But this end of this week, Nick's going to Thailand for a week on a work trip. But still it's like I can't even

imagine seven days. But it's funny you also said about the guilt thing and how much the book helped me. It's interesting that I have had. I've had so much support. Nick works from home, so it's a lot easier than either of us being in an office all the time. But my mechanics of the juggle has been I didn't need any help until the sleep thing, and then we got a night nanny, which I'll talk all about in

the sleep episode, which has been game changing. But Teddy's like Harry, he only sleeps for twenty seven to thirty one minutes max. Like clockwork during the day, so I can't do anything really during the day, but I have film so it has to be during light hours, so I kind of need a day nanny. But the first thing I asked you, I've asked quite a few people who I know have nanny's. I ask them how they

got their nanny. But I also asked when, as if that matters, as if that's got anything to do with anything.

Everyone has trouble with help and joggling it all. And like, I think, just that was awesome for me to see that from people I really looked up to as well. And even I remember Jess hatsis from Frank Body said in the book, like going back earlier and not really having any time off initially with her baby. She wouldn't wish that upon anyone, Like that's a hell that she

wouldn't wish upon anybody. And I was like, yeah, that was really hard, Like I thought that too, and yeah, I just think that's so powerful to be like we all feel guilty, but we all also have these career ambitions and aspirations that we don't have to miss out on because we chose to start a family. And you

just make it work in whatever way you can. And again like whatever makes you sleep at night, right, And there are some people who have no qualms about their level of support, some people who don't want to have external support at all. And again, like the women that stay home with their babies all the time, I'm like, hats off to you, because that is such a hard

and demanding job. And I have so much respect for women who can do that as well, and who choose to do that unpaid work, and you deserve to have supernuation and all that stuff, and I think that, Yeah, it's massive the spectrum there, and we all feel a level of guilt and pain and regret and we're all just doing our best.

misial boarding thing in the world. And I feel like I was lucky in the sense I had a lot of validation from my work, and I was given a lot of external validation as well, and I've won awards and I've been on four thirty under thirty and all those things that I thought madded to me. And now contrasting to him walking into the room and saying, ca, I'm like, oh my god, there's nothing like it.

Like everyone's going through it, And I hope that this was reassuring and a really nice addition to the CZA lineup for you guys. Really enjoying this segment so far, and also feel like, hopefully it will be a great addition to an extension of all the copying and pasting I've been doing on DMS trying to answer you eloquently.