After his first birthday. We were still in the High Court via zoom with me being questioned I mean it makes my blood boil, but by some sort of eighty year old gray haired man and being slightly whatever but pretty much who was saying, are you sure you try it hard enough to have a baby?
Welcome to the Seas the Ya Podcast.
Busy and happy, but tired and worn, just some of the feelings when baby is born. There's magic, elation, there's chaos and tears, but everyone goes through the same hopes and fears. So this is a segment we hope helps you feel supported and valid. The mum juggles real, the good, bad, the ugly, the best.
And worst day.
It's part of the journey to seize the Babe. I'm Sarah Davidson, a lawyer turned f entrepreneur who hung up the suits and heels to co found Mata Maiden a Macha milk bar, become a TV and radio presenter and of course host the Sees the Ya Podcast.
This year I added.
Motherhood to that list, which is the best job I've ever had with our beautiful baby Teddy. And this segment was designed to house all the conversations we've been having about parenthood. We'll still do our regular episodes, and just like real life, it's a constant balance between our parent identity and everything else. I hope you guys enjoy this
segment as much as I have enjoyed creating it. Guys, I mentioned the crazy revelation in our last episode that our first was back in twenty eighteen, making twenty twenty five our seventh year of seizing the AA, and that makes this one of many beautiful full circle moments as we welcome back our first guest ever, the inimitable Lisa Messenger,
without whom this show would not actually exist. I so often talk about sliding doors moments, and sometimes those come in the form of a person taking a leap of faith on you that changes your life forever. Lisa said yes when we hardly knew each other. I had zero proof of concept, literally had barely understood what a podcast actually was, and was so green in business. So I will always be incredibly grateful to her, and just reminding all of you to always ask the question, because you
just never know who might say yes. What's even more special about this one is that while Lisa has been back on the show, a few times. We've now added motherhood to the bonds of our friendship and pathways to
family that transcend DNA. Lisa was three years into trying to conceive when we first spoke back in twenty eighteen, but eighteen rounds of IVF would follow until twenty nine hundred and twenty two days after starting trying, Lisa welcomed her beautiful son, Hugo, into the world via surrogacy, being adopted. As you all know, I've always been so invested in making less traditional and sometimes stigmatized pathways to a family
more accessible and better understood. So I pored over the incredible book that Lisa and her wonderful surrogate, Sarah Megison co authored, called The Power of Two, which came out late last year. They broke their hearts all the way open to share every detail of their experience, logistics, finances, emotions, and we are just so lucky to have them both on the show today. I'll let them tell you more themselves.
They tell it so much better than I do. But I personally was so curious about the mechanics and logistics of surrogacy, with it still being rarely spoken about and perhaps still a bit taboo or stigmatized, but definitely not very accessible in terms of the finances and all the
logistics of making it work. On the off chance that this episode might reach even one or two of you who needed a scrap of new information or a glimmer of hope, as we will talk about it felt like the perfect topic for Caesar Bab and I hope you all enjoy it as much as I did. Of course, as this is about a fertility journey, just a content warning. We do cover pregnancy loss and other similar struggles, so please do take care while listening. Lisa and Sarah, Welcome
to CZA. Actually, Lise, welcome back to CZA. I feel this is maybe your fifth appearance or something like that.
Yeah, I feel like I've been hanging around for a while and we were just chatting before we jumped on about how I was your first party guest and you were my first plenty guest. So there's something beautiful about all of this.
Absolutely, But when I was your first podcast guest, you were so established in your career. I was just helping you out because I was also editing it.
But when you were my.
First podcast guest, I had just started in business. The podcast Landscape was brand new. I had no idea what I was doing, and you took such a big leap of faith saying yes to me back then the show. I think that was like twenty eighteen, and I definitely wouldn't be here, my career wouldn't be where it was if you hadn't said yes. So I will always remember that and be eternally grateful. So what a full circle moment.
And look at you now with one of the best podcasts on the planet. There's many full circle moments on the podcast between the three of us today.
I'm sure whereas we said, this is the first time we've properly met, and yet because of your beautiful book, as we mentioned and off air, I know almost everything about your lady bits and how.
Your urous works, just all the details I know.
I think far too many people know more than they ever wanted to about how my inner parts work.
Now I'm such a sucker for detail. But that's also the beauty of your incredible co authored book, The Power of Two, where you both give such intimate details and often quite stigmatize details of the surrogacy experience and other parts of the fertility journey. And that stigma is often the barrier to accessibility for other people who might be on a similar journey. I feel like this is quite
a signature move for you, Lisa. You've always shared the financials, the data, you share numbers, and that's so unheard of. So I'm so grateful that you've put this out into the world. Thank you so much for sharing the way you do.
Thank you so Where to start?
There's so much I wish I could just read the entire book out to everyone, but hopefully they go and do that for themselves. Lise, maybe let's start with a bit of your fertility journey, the chronology leading up to when you met Sarah and when you embarked on this journey together. So eighteen rounds of IVF, eight years of trying, I mean in your data, twenty nine hundred and twenty
two days. Gosh, you tried adoption. You've done IVF in many different formats, like tell us about the journey leading up to this point.
Yeah, Well, Sarah and I met in twenty eleven, so Sarah came before all that came back. But we met in a work capacity.
We were working on book babies, not real babies.
Baby sahed A number of my books in the first book she edited for me, because I write about everything that I know nothing about, and then I write as I learn as future, which is where I've written so many books. So that particular book in twenty eleven was a property investing book that Sarah and I met over. But yes, fast forward to my fertility journey and then we can go back to how we connected about all
of this twenty fifteen. And it's funny because I'm so data orientated in my business now because I've had to learn to be. I am big on numbers. Stephen always says to me, Oh my god, how do you just pull these numbers out? Like I just know numbers about when things happened. So twenty fifteen, I was with my previous partner, I got pregnant to him. Sadly, I had
a miscarriage and then we broke up shortly thereafter. But being a bit of a bost lady and being like I'm ready to have a baby now, that was really painful and it kind of opened the gates of I really want to be a mum. And I think it was back when I had Collective Hub Print mag and you know, we were very much about world domination at the time with the magazine in thirty seven countries, and so I was like, of course I can throw this into the mix, and of course I can achieve this,
and I don't need a man to do so. So then I decided to get donus sperm, and I did two rounds of IVF using my eggs, shopping for random baby daddy's on the internet. So where I went next. Actually before that, though, I had been to Bali the Christmas of twenty sixteen, and I'd met this little baby Gracie who was lying on a mattress and I spent three days lying next to her and I tried to adopt her. So yeah, so natural conception tried to adopt two rounds with baby daddy sperm, and none of that,
sadly was successful. And then I met Stephen shortly thereafter, and he was like, you know, once we knew that we were going to be together, we were like, let's try and have a baby. Yeah, And that was interesting because he was like, well, let's just go naturally. But I was already like three rounds into everything, you know, I'd done all the pieces before, and he was like, fresh off the you know, fresh out of the gates,
and like, let's try to have a baby naturally. So I'd already done two rounds of and then we tried naturally, which he was determined to do, which I think makes complete sense because as we talk about in the book, we all come to things at different phases. We tried naturally, that wasn't working, so then proceeded to do a further fourteen rounds of IBF. So by the time Sair came into the picture, I had done two rounds on my own my maths now twelve with still and then was
all right. Anyway, we got to fourteen sixteen and then came in for the last two. I mean, it was a long journey, and really we talked about it all in the book, but it's not a sorry book, which I think you pointed out before says it was much
more around that's the through line. But for us it's about how do we tell a story and you know, share the tenacity and the never giving up and anything's possible and there's more than one way to do anything, which you know I've always been all about clearly, and I was just not going to give up until I had my beautiful scromptious, little baby in my hands. So yeah, that's that's the smash.
Oh my goodness.
I mean it's one of those things where you had spoken so much in your life about tenacity and grit and you know, never kind of taking over an answer
before that point. And yet I don't think any of the times where you'd try something for had it taken you eight years and eighteen rounds to not be able to do it, And for someone so driven and so sure that you could just do better next time and understand all the data, I can't imagine how frustrating and what a roller coaster, just how consuming that that must have been for that time.
All consuming, And I think, you know, mostly what you and I have talked about previously is entrepreneurship and business, you know, which I'm very good at because I mean that's what I do. I thrive on finding solutions to problems and seeing opportunity where others see, you know, bluckages, and so that's what I do all day, every day. So it was extraordinarily frustrating that you can't just you know, throw money at something or bringing a team to solve
so I mean you can. I did throw a lot of money and did bring in a lot of teams.
I was going to say, you did try that.
You know, there are certain things that medically, you know, within my body, it just seemed impossible to solve. And you know, in a business meeting, we would always debrief and work out what do we do best next time? And every single time with the clinic that we had a debriefing call. Even though the rounds of IBF had cost between ten and twelve thousand dollars each, the debriefing call then was like another one hundred and thirty dollars.
I'm like, you do not just throw that in as a value had And it always took you know, two to four minutes, and it was just like you're on the right track, you know, just keep going. So that I found extraordinarily frustrating because you know, as a business person and someone who wants to reverse engineer and you know, break everything apart and work out, well, why is it not working? Like, just tell me what I'll do and
I'll do it. I don't care, like I'll which I did, you know, poo in a thing to the US and check it out and do this and do that, like whatever it is, inject myself for one hundred and eighty times, you know, swallow these tablets, climb on the roofs, down on my head, whatever it is, just tell me. So that was frustrating because in those briefing calls it was
very much like, no, you're doing really well. And I'm someone who, as is said, we like to learn and we like to have data and explanations so we can do better and be better, and so it was like, well, okay, thank you, and there was not much to go on. So that was very frustrating.
I always found, even in like a much much more condensed version of what you went through, that it was the first time ever in my life I'd had to accept that I could do all the right things, everything right. Every single thing that is possible to control I had controlled to the best of my ability, and still just some months you didn't get a result. Like it was just the most frustrating thing because we're so used to our effort equally output, and there was just no output.
So before we do move on to the actual surrogacy process and the mechanics of it, to anyone who I think you often hear the story in reverse. You hear like even the way I tell my story is now I have Teddy, so you kind of hear with the happy ending. And even with my mum's story, she also went through an extraordinary amount of IVF before adopting us, And so we all have a beautiful happy ending at
the end. But for those who haven't sort of got their happy ending in that bit where you just don't know how enduring it's going to be, what does keep you going? Like, what would you say to someone who's sort of still in those earlier days, Because I feel like there will be a lot of listeners who are listening because that's where they are.
Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, sayh Meg, we will come to you. I feel like it's the Lisa Show out of my mind. There's a whole lot of stuff. And also, interestingly, since the book The Power Two has come out, it's also brought out a whole lot of triggers and stuff because you know, we've been rashing it and sharing it and everything. It's kind of brought up the whole journey again, which I think is probably good in terms of helping other
people and feeling back into the feelings. But for me, yeah, I do have my happy ending, and so I'm like, oh my god, please let those eight years will be dolune. I just want to focus on this beautiful baby in front of me. But for anyone who's still in the trenches, I'm very aware that I only talk about my own experiences because there's nothing worse than people being like, oh,
why don't you just try and relax more? Or I did this, And sometimes that's useful to kind of go, oh, yeah, maybe they're little threads that I could follow, But also sometimes you just want to scream because you're like, I know, I've tried that fifteen mimes. So I think what I would say is that what kept me going to be honest, in a way, it was probably Stephen because he just kept really wanting a baby and just kept saying, come on, we can do this, and so I just kind of
kept leaning into whatever. I don't know if I would have given up earlier. What I would say is this, though, actually the most useful thing for other people is I think it's like little semblances of hope and creating little things to look forward to. So for me, what that meant was just changing things up a little bit, and that's probably actually the most useful thing I can say to anyone, because when I was trying the same thing over and over again and being told by the clinic, oh,
just keep going. But it was when someone else, actually, when i'm thinking back to it, suggested a little something like at some one point I started going to a Chinese herbalist, and you know, people had said acupuncture is great, so then I went on to Okay, I'll do it. I was doing acupuncture two or three times a week, every week and taking up to ninety tablets a day, which sounds crazy. Fifty of them were these tiny, tiny
little bullets that you just check down at once. But you know, I think, actually it's again about people's readiness and what information they want to take in. But I think it was those things sometimes gave me the hope and so I was like, oh I try that, Yep, this will be the answer. Or you know, when we tried different protocols like you know, swapping over, I don't know, various different things that we did. I think that gave me some more hope because I was like, oh, that
can do it. So I think when you've got new next steps, it opens up the ability. Like I think if i'd just done eighteen rounds of IVF doing the exact same protocol without introducing anything new or trying anything new. I might have given up the way before, but as we talk about in the book, there was just so many different things, yeah, to the point where I actually,
I mean, this is irrelevant. And we didn't talk about this in the book, but like Steven and I went to one crazy naturopath that charged nine dollars a minute, while and Stephen used to exist purely on like kale and mung beans and you know, like the healthiest person on the entire planet. And we both did all these tests, which included like doing a protest and sending it off
to America, all these things. Right, Anyway, the funny thing is, and this is the ridiculousness of it, my results came back like absolutely squeaky clean, and I wasn't eating particularly well and I was all over the shop and he was like and I couldn't stop laughing because I was like, oh my god, you're like the healthiest person I know.
And he had like all these red lines on his So you just got to keep trying different things, I think, and work out what works for you, work out what information you're open to I know a lot of times when I was ready for help, I'd be like, yes, can you share something with me? But other times I'd be like, just today or this week or this month, I'm just not open to anything. I've probably tried it and I just need to hold my protect my energy.
I think I love that you said the readiness to hear it, because I also think that with different pathways, like you're the most beautiful example of and I think I'm also an example of the fact that there are many different pathways to a family and DNA and blood and natural birth is but one of many. But unless you've had exposure to it, like to me when we were trying, I sort of thought, adoption is so not
foreign to me. It's been around me at my husband's My mother in law was adopted as well, so both sides it's quite common, which means the more you talk about it, the less foreign these things are. And I think this is why you guys are so amazing, is because no one has really spoken about saragus before, even as an option.
So what I would love to ask you.
Sarah, is the very very beginning idea, was you kind of throwing away a comment of if you need a surrogate, you know, let me know. Is that because you had had exposure to sarrogasy before, did you know how it worked? Or was it just literally a random idea.
No exposure to anything. All I had to had was really easy pregnancies. Myself, this idea had always been fascinated in sarrogacy, but my own exposure to it had been overseas, like seeing people on Oprah talking about how they used a sarrogate, or just seeing you know, reading articles in magazines and stuff. I really didn't know much about it at all. I had tried years ago just to like google it and see, like is there an agency you can register with in And it's really.
Really hard in Australia. It's so such a black hole. There's like hardly and information about it.
And so I had just always thought, years ago, like a decade ago, when the first thought popped into my mind, I thought, if the right circumstance came up, you know, I'd love to do that. It was something i'd talked about with my husband, like I reckon I could be a surrogate one day, and I'd love to do this for someone one day. So It wasn't a surprise to him when I came to him and said I wanted to do this for Lisa. We talked about it, no way.
It wasn't like.
I had gone, oh, my sister needs a baby, so I'm going to do this. It was just like this idea of something I could do one day, and then when I was talking to Lisa and she's like, oh, we're starting IVF, it's not going so well.
And I just wasn't even thinking. I was like, oh, well, if.
You need a surrogate, you know, I'm usually But it was actually at the beginning of her journey shows only maybe like three rounds in. When I say only, my gosh, three rounds is a lot of rounds for a lot of people that you know, the end of the journey. But for now we know that Lisa had such a long road. She was only three rounds in at the time, and so that wasn't really an option for her then.
And I must admit I just kind of threw it out there. I didn't know anything.
About what it would involve or what the I knew nothing. I knew nothing, so I was just like, oh, yeah, you know, sure, let's do it. The same way that like you're chatting with friends and they go, we should go to Bali one day.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's go to girls trip. Like I was just like, yeah, that sounds great, we could do it. So I kind of I threw it out there, and then we just didn't talk about it again. It was like she was like, oh, that's so kind of you, but you know, we're still early stages and whatever, and then.
We didn't talk about it again. And then I went and had.
I had hernias with my pregnancies and I had diastysprecty, so my abs were really separated and the hernia was starting to become really painful, and my GP said, look, you're either going to need to go get it operated on or it will burst and then you'll be getting the operation in an emergency setting. So like, either way you're getting an operation, it's just a matter of when you want to do it.
And he's like, if you.
If you wait and it explodes and you're in surgery an emergency, you might get someone who's only done three of these before in their life.
Or if you go and proactively get it taken care of, you can.
Get a specialist and I was like, well, that sounds like a better way to do it.
So I went and got all that repaired.
And my surgeon at the time, excuse me, He said, like, you're finished having babies, because once we put you all back together, we don't want to, you know, stress that area out again.
And I was like, no, no, we're done. And like in the back of.
My mind, I thought, oh, I threw that out to Lisa, but she never like picked up on it, Like we never talked about it again, so that's probably not going to happen.
So off I went got my surgery until we did.
Oh my gosh, it is like, you know all those memes about how the girls, you know, trip to Europe has made it out of the group chat. For you guys, it's like a baby made it out of the group chat. I mean, I said to you guys before he started recording.
It's the second time I've read the book, even having already known the story, just because I know Lisa and it just I've always been such a big believer that the universe works things out, the timing, the way ideas circulate, like things conspire to make things happen, and I believe that our first loss was because Teddy was waiting and he just wasn't ready then. And now it all makes sense, and I kind of feel like Hugo was just waiting.
He was waiting for all of those things, yea, and it took you know, he was like these eight years, I'm not ready yet, Like You're gonna have to wait, mum, because I'm in the stars and I.
Need Sarah to drop this email, and like these things.
Need to happen, and it all worked out, which is It gives me goosebumps to think of how many things had to go right at the right time for this idea to circulate. And I hope that maybe someone listening to this finds some nugget of the process of something that opens their mind to something that also is part of, you know, the fabric that makes up their own journey.
Why.
I think it is truly remarkable how much you guys share.
Yeah, I also have goosebumps all of my entire body, and you probably feel this with Teddy. But like I do think about it often, Sarah and Sarah because I look at you and I go, oh my gosh, imagine if I hadn't been successful before I wouldn't have Hugo like, and he's just so oh, I get so my show like, he's so perfect. I am so in love with him. We are so connected, it's like we're the same person.
It's wild on so many levels. And so yeah, I do think that's hopefully another piece for anyone out there trying still in the trenches, just you know, hang on to that string of possibility and we can get into this as much in as much detail as you want. But as you said, I do share the finances and things, and that's always been something I've done since I watched the magazine in twenty thirteen. I was always like, the story behind the story. We're a real relatable, attainable and
if I'm not talking about it, then is it? You know. I feel like it's my duty, that's what I've put out into the world, to actually explain it all. And if you don't put all the pieces in, then a lot of people are left shaking their head or scratching their head and going but why, but why? But how about how? And I've always wanted to really help to take that away and make things much more easy to understand. And I think you can only do that with all
of the detail, but the financial piece. We had a review a couple of days ago, a beautiful review, but it triggered me a little bit because she was like, of course, you know, Lisa and Sarah are beautiful in the book, and because they talk all about, you know, the privilege that they have, it always makes me feel a bit like, you know, because yes, I have privileged depending on how you look at it, in that I had the resources, mostly being money, to be able to
do this, and I do understand that a lot of people are not in that position. And I do hope, you know, through what Sarah and I are putting out there, that you know, there becomes some regulatory changes and things so that it becomes more accessible, because you know, there is so many fertility issues and they seem to be sadly becoming more prevalent. So I do hope. So, I mean, I met a woman recently who had saved for ten years to have one round of IBF, and luckily she
was fortunate to have her child. But I do know that. But the thing about privilege, it kind of well in the book, I talk a lot about it, you know, part of the reason I beat myself up and people were like, well, of course you can't get pregnant, because the irony was I had to keep trembling the world doing what I do, Like the biggest piece of my money is jumping on stages and speaking, and I needed to do that in order to pay for the IVF.
So yeah, anyway, and that's the whole thing. But yes, I understand we were in a position to be able to do it.
Yeah, but I think it's also yes, you're right that it does depend how you look on it, because at the same time, you know, one of the so you talk about is the four hundred thousand US dollars that goes into an agency, but that it wasn't without sacrifice. I mean, you had to sell your house to fund that.
So yes, your privileged in that you had a house to sell to do that, but it didn't not cost you things that you had worked for in order to you know, it wasn't just sitting there sort of you were rolling in money, you know.
And actually another point around that, which is a full circle, which I've never talked about really, but probably part of the reason, I mean, the whole irony of this whole thing, I have had my own businesses for twenty three and a half years, and my business was my identity and my everything, right, so I almost forgot to have a baby. So it's because I hustled my ass off for twenty three years and probably almost sacrificed the ability to have a baby, that I actually had the finances to be
able to pay for the baby. I would suggest people maybe stop hustling their ass off a little earlier than me, and maybe they wouldn't have to put all the money that they for twenty three years into trying to have a baby.
Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean again, it's so funny how it works out. And again maybe it all inspired because you were meant to have Hugo. And that's what my mom has also always drilled into me because she went through I mean very primitive IVF, like Monash IVF when it first started. So she's got like immense hormonal issue, like lifelong issues from how kind of early stage it was. But she still says to this day it's because she was like I was.
Waiting for her.
And one thing that I also love about your book is it does remind I think we have this fascination. I mean, there's a whole chapter in the book on how the first question for everybody is whose DNA is it? Like,
as if that's the most important thing. But what I think is really beautiful is not only did things happen like your left breast started producing milk, Lisa, but also that like when I go out with Mum, I'm fully Asian, she's fully Caucasian, and no one can't tell immediately that where mother and daughter, like we have body language things people say like, oh, you've the same smile or the same face shape or whatever, and there's no sort of
question about it. And you say now that there's so many things about Hugo where people are like, oh, he's got your whatever it is. And it's just funny that we've beenly preoccupied with DNA being the only way that you can be related, and yet all around us there are these bonds of family that aren't based on that, And I think it's just interesting how that is the first question. Probably most people listening will be waiting to hear, like, who's DUNO was it? As if that's the most important thing.
Yeah, So just to cover off on that for anyone who hasn't read the book yet, spoiler Alette, Hugo is not my Danna, And that was a big point that Sarah and I, I mean, we did months of like back and forwards on that, because it's funny whenever we said, oh, I've got a sorry get carrying Hugo, but I would always language it like I'm pregnant. So there's a lot around that but kind of shockingly. But I don't think anyone meant anything buy it. I think that's just a fascination.
But every single time people would say, oh, is it your eg and every time I was like, it was really jarring and triggering for me, and so like sometimes I would lie and like I just was like and it always it often took away from the after I'd said I'm pregnant and then to be like straight on my way met with that. But no know, it took me quite a lot of therapy to get through that, to be like do I feel less bad? Or like
why is that triggering me? But now that Hugo's here, oh and sayah, you know really said to me, which I agree with, you know, to round it out properly and for people to truly understand what is possible if I left that piece out yet talked about all the other roads to Hugo. Then it would have been a bit disingenuous, and it wouldn't have necessarily because speaking of hope, that's when I had the piece of hope, right. It
was when I had done it. I've just got she was again when I went for some reason outside of my normal clinic for a day to do a scan and this woman was like, ah, I have women in here all the time that used dinner eggs and they're like getting pregnant all over the place. Kind to me, and I just walked out of there and I was like, oh my gosh. Right, But like the readiness, I wasn't ready before. I always thought, A, oh, carry my own baby, and then b no, of course it's going to be
my egg. And then you know, I got to your point where it was like, oh my god, of course, yes, yes, yes, And then it was just catching Stephen up because his readiness came understanding different phases. But you know what there is and you, you said, Davidson, understand this completely with your mama bear. I mean, there is not a question on the planet that Hugo is not unnervely every single bit my child and the crazy thing with us is and this might trigger you, and I'm sorry if it does.
We look identical like when we were babies, which is wild. So yeah, there's so many things it's quite crazy. So yes, that is the piece that we decided to talk about.
Well, And just to add on to that, Lisa and I talked about it a lot because it was obviously a really sensitive chapter for her. But I said, you can't tell a story like this and give people hope because a lot of the people reading this book are trying to have the hope that they'll be able to
have their happy ending in their family. And I said, you can't do that and not share that piece, because then you're encouraging people to keep going down the path you went down sixteen times with no result, And that just was not not something we wanted to do. We really want to help people see what the options are when you do broaden it out a little bit and go, what's the goal. The goal is to have a family, so let's look at every opportunity we can to make that happen.
I had lunch with them another woman who had a sorry to carry her baby the other day, which was just so beautiful. And the funny thing is she said oh, but she was very adamant. She was like, oh, but he's my DNA, you know, like and I was like, oh, they didn't even whatever, you know. And as I was leaving about three hours later, I'm going to cry, she said to me, I have to tell you something. He's not my DNA, because I'd said to her, you guys,
you know Ukrainian egg. And then because I'd done that, right, I think she just came out and said and we both had this like just moment, and I was like, thank you for showing and she was like, I really needed to tell you that because you've been so honest, and you know, he's just such my child. And I get very emotional, and I think it is because of
this talking about the hard things. Sometimes it does help other people, and it gives them permission, and it gives people hope, and it gives a sisterhood bond and all of the things, you know.
And g It is also so crazy when people ask those questions, like when people say, oh, is it your egg or whatever, it's really for most people just to throw away question out of fascination. It doesn't change anyone else's view. Like the people that I've talked to about it and things, they don't go ask oh, so they usually ask me, is it any of it yours? You know?
That was the other thing, the other reason why I said to Lisa, we have to be really clear in the book, like what the genetics are, because I want it to be really clear that it's not a sibling genetically to my children, just so that you know, clarity around the whole.
Process of it.
And people would say to me, is it your egg? And I'd say no, it's none of my genetic material. Oh is it her egg then?
And I'd say no, it's a donor egg and they're like, oh, okay, cool.
So how does that work?
Like that's the end of it.
And so Lisa, when you talk about that other mother, like she obviously has so many feelings around that. Other people are not judging it, like we're all just excited for you that you've got a baby. Noone else is worrying about it to the level we worry about our own stuff.
Yeah, And I think that's the conversation. There are so many beautiful ways to you know, I would adopt another twenty or you know, foster, which the cards I just want.
I think, so that's a really great point, that there is just a lot of curiosity, Like there's either curiosity from people who are never going to be considering surrogacy or adoption for themselves. Like a lot of people ask if I want to find my biological parents, and it's not because they have biological parents, like it's just a question.
They're just really interested, And I think you can tell when it's not loaded with any emotional criticism, they just I think it's one of those areas where often the linguistics, like the language that's used can trigger people who are emotionally involved, but from people who aren't, they just accidentally use the wrong words because they've because we don't talk about it enough, Which is why I really like that you guys not only spoke at length about the emotional
side to prepare anyone going through it that it is a very very emotionally charged and complex area, but you also go through the non emotional logistics for curiosity's sake, So you talk about like legally, what did you have to do the wording? Like sayah, I think one of your chapters was how we're going to word this is it? It's your pregnancy Lisa's baby, and suddenly that helps you, guys with your boundaries, Like you need to have a
non emotional side of curiosity questions as well. So maybe Sarah, can you lay out sort of the mechanics of once you guys decided that you were going to do this, how did you work out sort of who decides what you eat during pregnancy and who goes to what appointments? And how do the costs work and deciding your birth plan and you know, all of those kind of like
how did you work out the phone logistic? You know, like all of those things, Like suddenly you've got to decide because this is a beautiful family of four bringing like a fifth member in you know.
Yeah, I mean the logistics were crazy because you've got four parents who are you know, me and my husband and Lisa and Stephen. All of us have our own busy careers and lives, and for us, we had three kids as well, and we're trying to fit in this pregnancy.
So it was crazy.
And we go into heaps of detail in the book about all of those specific logistics and the money and the decisions and the contracts and all that stuff, and I think really we approached it like one of Lisa's superpowers is to find that glimmer of hope and possibility and hold onto that, And that's like the approach we took for everything. So even at the very beginning, when I spoke to my surgeon and said, hey, I want to get pregnant.
I want to have my friend's.
Baby, and he was like, I said I want to get pregnant, and he was like, what are you talking about. I thought you had done with kids and I was like, no, I'm done, but I'd really like to be a surrogate for a friend.
And he was like, oh okay. He's like, look, I'm not used to this.
Like in the thousands of these surgeries I've done, we don't normally then have a baby afterwards. But he's like, let me go check it out and I'll come back to you. And when he came back, he didn't say like, yes, go ahead, you're all clear. He kind of said, look, you can do it. You can't have twins because that's
way too risky, but you can do it. Just hope he's not too big, or hope the baby's not too big, and we'll get to the other side and see what damage there is, and we'll repair it and fix it then. And for a lot of people that's a no, you know, like for a lot of people that would be this is too risky. Like my surgeon basically said that there's a risk of damage, so we can't really move forward. But I saw, Oh, so you're telling me there's a chance there's a chance that I could get pregnant and
it could be fine. So that's the chance we're holding on too. And I think that's Lisa's approach to everything, like look through all the weeds and the muck for the where's that little jew drop of sunshine that says we can do this? So that's what we did through the whole pregnancy. And there were honestly a lot of hard conversations we didn't have. Like we knew at the beginning that I couldn't have twins, but we didn't talk
about what that would mean. Like we knew both of us knew if we get pregnant with twins, we're gonna have to reduce one. I'm getting like goosebumps now at how horrible that would have been. Yeah, but we just really didn't like plot the what ifs of the negative
out until each one happened, until a situation happened. So it was an enormous amount of trust, particularly for Lisa because I was the one carrying a baby, but also they could have been curly sity tuations because it was their child, right, So if we did get to a point and you know, the thing about anyone who's who's been pregnant before knows there's no definitive diagnoses in pregnancy. Usually it's usually all a numbers game.
So you get the.
All the testing and stuff, and they'll go there's a chance of this, So you know, they could have been a chance of you might have an abnormality. Those questions where they say do you want to continue with the pregnancy or not, we would have had to make those decisions as four and like their baby my uterus, there just could have been so much complexity, but we really
just chose to approach it all really optimistically. We had the most incredible obstetrician who held her hand with so much grace and compassion and just walked us through everything, and we were so supported with him. So I think between the group of us, we just were able to handle everything that came. And there was a lot of complexity through it. Even just one of the small things was that I had a higher risk of high blood
pressure simply because it was not my genes. So when they did the risk profiling, they said, because it's not your genetic material, your body recognizes that and it kind of gets a little bit itchy and it raises your blood pressure, which then increases your risk of preaclamps here and all sorts of really dangerous potential conditions. So then I had to be on daily aspirin from like six
weeks of pregnancy. So there were so many little things like that that came up, and we just chose at every step to be as optimistic as possible, face the facts head on when they're in front of us, but just really stay.
Present and grounded in the moment.
And I think we were all just so focused on the excitement of the baby, like what we're doing this for that that helped really keep us motivated.
I think that's so beautiful for life generally, particularly fertility journeys, but life generally that we do spend an enormous amount of time worrying about situations that haven't actually happened yet, and like, sure, you need a bit of rainy day planning. But I think we sort of dwell in the like let's worry fifty five steps ahea head when you're kind of just bringing about more negativity than is necessary. And I love that you just like you had enough things
to think about. I mean, you guys are all working full time, You've got lives going on aside from trying to do this miracle that I love that you just you make a choice to kind of bring a certain attitude and approach towards something, and I think that does carry it through. And it wasn't all rosy, like I
think I didn't know. I'd forgotten between the first reading and the second reading of the book that you actually had a chemical pregnancy first in this process, so you got pregnant and then it didn't go ahead, and all of you had to choose We're still going to try again after everything that you've been through. I mean that in itself is like the definition of optimism. And thank god you did, because every yes along the way resulted
in HUGO. But I mean, yeah, the logistics of that, like least, for example, can you sort of talk through the I don't want to make you go too far into the sort of US experience, but just how in Australia it's altruistic. And then the legalities of like what are your obligations to Sarah and what was legally obliged?
What did you choose to do.
Like what is the framework that kind of guides you guys through that whole pregnancy and then birth, because I know the birth certificate was Sarah first and you have to change that immediately, like all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, so I won't going to the detail his but we did actually go down a path in the US which was going to cost about four hundred and fifty thousand dollars, of which about forty thousand only goes to the surrogate. So a lot of people make it a lot of money over there, and we had a really hideous experience. However, I have heard of people having, you know, amazing experiences. It was just not meant to be for us.
So I think everything is relative, right, I say, Now, oh, Australia and having you know, this birth with Sarah was just like a breeze, I mean says absolutely right. There was a lot of hurdles and logistics and paperwork and things. I think everything in life is perspective readiness. It's situational and you know, dependent on you know, where you've come from. And because I've been through so much already, by the time we landed here, I was like, oh, this is
a breeze. When I say it's a breeze to get to the point of you know, putting an embryor into Sarah basically means that it needed to be you know, someone's DNA. So whether it be my eggs as I had had them, you know, extracted many times before, I would have had to do that because we didn't end up using my eggs. Ultimately, we had to go through
two rounds of IBF with a beautiful Ukrainian woman. When we were actually trying to do the collection in the Ukraine, it was actually COVID so we couldn't get the eggs out. And then it was like the war, so you know, you throw in a bit.
Of a global politics and a pandemic, you know you can't plan for that.
Yeah. So see that's why I'm saying it's relative because for me, by the time we decided to you know, go down the rut of surrogacye, we actually had embryos in the freezer. But to get the embryos, yeah, you need to extract eggs from somewhere. You know, Steven has to go and do his and then and then put
them together and then they need to be implanted. In Australia it is autruistic, so you cannot pay anyone, and there's a lot of sort of Facebook groups and then I mean, this is another reason we want to shine a light on it. There's a lot of really sort of underground things I think going on in Australia where we've heard some terrible things about you know, mismatched people through dodgy Facebook groups and things like that. So there is something in a way to be said potentially for
the agency. I just think maybe there's a slightly lesser
model than the four hundred thousand dollars plus. Yeah, so I think in Australia, you know, it is best and certainly Sarah and I would absolutely testify to this now that you undergo with someone who is a friend who you know you've both done quite a lot of therapy and you're able to have the hard conversations and really have extraordinary lines of communication, because I think that's really an absolute imperative and as Sarah and I have talked about as well, there probably needs to be a lot
more psychology and therapy throughout. All that happened was essentially we had to have therapy as a foursome, so Sarah and David, Steven and I all together. We also had to have therapy separately each one of the four of us just to doubly check in on everything. And then we had to fill out some sort of psych tests and things. So that was at the beginning, just to make sure there's no anomalies that were all kind of
on the same page. The therapist as some great questions which there has alluded to some around you know what happens if just to make sure that we'd actually thought about, you know, if the baby has done syndrome or if because all four of us could have had different kind of takes on it. So we sort of did some of the thinking up front. But I think both of us do think it would be useful to continue through with therapy and just really check in with all four
parties throughout. And then there's the legals, so Sah and I both needed to have separate lawyers just to you know, go through I mean, I think it's just a lot of people getting paid a lot of money for I mean, this is your background background from way before, you know how the legal system works. So our lawyer was beautiful though, a beautiful, beautiful man who had also gone through surrogacy himself.
And then we financially can cover anything that I would be doing myself, So any sort of maternity where or compression stockings or medical bills or you know, anything to do with that that I would be doing. Anyway, we can cover any and all of that for sair. But you're not allowed to really color too much outside of the lines. So that was that the birth certificate. Yes, I mean, I think Australia has a lot lot of catching up to do in terms of the bureaucracy and
red tape. And says better talking about this because she's much more analytical white in this way. But essentially what I will say is we use Hugo's Medicare cards there for the first time today. He's eighteen months and two days old, and we had to take him for his eighteen month backs and like to have his actual Medicare card, which we didn't have until about a month ago, and we didn't have his birth until he was I think
was it fourteen months? Thirteen months? Yeah, And in fact, after his first birthday we were still in the High Court second correction on any of this via zoom with me being questioned, I mean, it makes my blood boil, but by some sort of eighty year old gray headed man and bank slightly whatever, but pretty much who was saying, are you sure you tried hard enough to have a baby, And I'm like, hang on a minute, before they can hand over the proper parentage order or whatever to us,
And I was like, hang on a minute. My child is, you know, thirteen months old. We've just had his first birthday party, and you're questioning now if I tried hard enough,
and I was like, I don't know. So I do think there's somewhere between what's going on in the US and what's going on in Australia that we need to kind of bring the two slightly closer together in terms of eradicating some of the you know, bureaucracy and red tape and ridiculous lines of questioning, but also removing a lot of the barriers which are prohibitive in the US
in terms of the monetary side of it. Is kind of so over the top and ridiculous and really reserve for you know this, who can't be bothered to carry their own baby or whatever it is, I think a lot of the time. So I think we need to bring it together a lot more.
And I think for added context there the process that we all went through, Like with that court that Lisa's talking about. These are not judges who are used to surrogates. There's only one hundred surrogate bursts in Australia a year. So that court, with that judge, that is a family court that is designed to deal with like the most
complex and difficult custody cases. So even though I can I can understand why Lisa was so like triggered by the line of questioning that's such an important part of like that process because he's normally sitting there going right, So the mom is doing, what the dad is doing?
What?
Why am I here? Why am I in court? Why are we looking at this? So even though to him he was just stating the facts.
Okay, so the mum has done sixteen rounds, Okay, So he's just like literally slicing Lisa's heart.
Open in the court.
Yeah, but I actually am fully in support of that, because this is the mechanism that supports and protects children who are in these really difficult, difficult situations. So that's another part of where there's I guess the sensitivity is missing because he just walked in that morning, Lisa was
one of you know, twenty cases. He's hearing and he's just going through the facts, but she wasn't expecting, you know, I'm going to get my son is legally going to be recognized as my son today, And instead it's like this whole nother tranch of like what was it?
What did you go through? Again? Oh, we're just going to lay it all out again.
Like there's so many parts of this journey that can be reactivating, I guess, and takes a lot to get through it all.
Yeah, And I think the more or the less uncommon it becomes, and particularly as there are like so so many fertility challenging fertility journeys where people haven't ended up in adoption or sorry, I guess he purely because they don't actually know how you can do it, or they do start as you did with adoption, Lise, and it
was too difficult. Like the barriers are absolutely outrageous considering how many matches of desperate families who are desperate for children and children who desperately need homes, like the mismarriage is just so frustrating to see sometimes. But yeah, I mean for anyone who does who is more interested in the logistics, the Lisa and there in the book just give so much detail.
But just now that.
We've cut, like outside of the logistics, I would love to ask, and only if you're comfortable talking about it, because I know it does bring it all up again, But just emotionally, I think my fascination personally is in how things do transcend DNA. So Lise, I would love to talk to you about did you feel pregnant during the pregnancy and what did the moment of birth kind
of feel like? And sayah, also, how did having had three pregnancies where you did have a genetic match physiologically and emotionally, what it felt like caring for someone else and how your interaction like with your body and your brain through the pregnancy was going and same at the moment of birth, Like what was it like for four of you being involved?
Was it similar different?
Like?
Yeah, what did what did you guys feel kind of. I mean, that's such a big question.
But the sparknized version, Yeah, for anyone who loves the birth story, we give like the full blow by blow in the book.
I love Oh, I loved it.
Yeah, so I love it when people share their stories. But we've got all the full details in there. But yeah, a big question.
I think I hoped going into this that I would have a really healthy level of disconnection to the pregnancy. And I know that's like quite a strong word, but I was really hoping I wouldn't become super attached to this baby, and I'm thankful that's exactly what happened. I was always really protective of him and really like connected to what we were doing. But I never felt like his mum ever. It never felt like it was my baby.
I was never I was never like thinking. And I think one of the big things is though, like when you're having a baby, you're thinking ahead to like the first Christmas, and you're thinking of other milestones. When I was pregnant with my son Jesse, I would be thinking of, like, oh,
he's due in January. That's the same month my eldest was starting preschool, and so I was like imagining, oh my gosh, I'm going to be carrying like a tiny little baby into her first day of school, and you're imagining your future with this child.
And I was never doing that.
I was imagining him being born and then just going back to my life. So that created an instant and healthy boundary, so that it was just a beautiful pregnancy. I think pregnancy is miraculous, like.
The process of it.
I just don't understand how it starts as a microscopic cell and becomes a human.
So I'm always I still.
Think about that every day.
Yeah, just wild.
So I was always really just at the whole time, I just was like, what a miracle this is, Like I'm carrying this baby for my friends, Like what.
An extraordinary thing to be part of.
I just always felt really like blessed about it the whole time.
It was amazing.
And I love that you did include like the hormonal let down kind of immediately after birth, that you did give yourself time and a few days to kind of you know, your body has evacuated a human, so of course it's going to be sort of.
Like whoa, whoa.
But I love that you were also able to keep this umbrella of like, I know what I'm doing here, and we're all doing this together, and this is my role. I'm not ye creating kind of the future memories. At least, did you feel pregnant, because I know you. You would say like, I'm pregnant, you know, and I'm having a baby, and like your body did things like what the hell?
So I did feel pregnant the whole time. I'm not talking so much about the physicality of it, but I am one thousand percent un question. I'm really talking about the emotion of it and the depth of connection around being pregnant. And you know, I think I've been writing books on this stuff forever and I'm you know, spiritual, and I've really honed my mind set on a number of different things, and I'm very big on the languaging.
So yes, I would always say to people I'm pregnant, and I would believe that one hundred percent that I am pregnant, like it was. So I think everything is in you know, language and belief has so much to do with feeling. And then also, you know, I was just like this crazy person who I just loved it. I would go into baby shops and like try on carriers and like put a little baby in there, like I would all these things constantly. I you know, the
pram I used to we had this. I seriously ended up buying like a pretend baby and I would wheel him around like I was so pregnant. But also the wildest thing happens, And I think this is the beauty of that time with Sarah and I together. I have never felt as connected to a human in my life, no one, not my mother, not anyone as I did with Sarah, because we were just so in sync, you know.
And it's like having a best friend who you're calling or texting or dming like you know, or facetiming or seeing in persons like multiple times a day, and so having someone to share that journey in parallel was just like the most exciting thing I could ever imagine. And things would happen like I've not had. I think I've had antibiotics like once or twice in my life. I've never had them. And then Sarah had a kidney infection
and had to go on to antibiotics. And then the next day, like I weirdly got some infection in my finger from gardening, and I had to go to antibiotics, Like, there was just so many things, you know, And like Sarah, often we'd be out at lunch or something and she'd be like, oh, I need to go and be sick, and I'd be like, oh, do I go? Stick my fingers?
But clear I always encouraged her not to No, no, you're good.
I was like, we're in this together, though, let's go. So I did feel pregnant the whole time, and you know, that becomes slightly confusing for onlookers when I'm so, you know, the brosely saying I'm seven months pregnant, and they look down and they're like, wow, oh yeah, but my baby's and someone else's tummy, and but like it was almost like I had to explain it because I'm like, what do you mean you can't see them?
Yeah?
Can you see my baby that I bought in my carrier?
Yeah? And then sad the opposite because she looked obviously pregnant. But then people would be like congratulations and she'd be like, oh no, it's not mine or David her hobby would be like, oh no, no, it's not.
My baby, like it was.
You know, different stuff.
Oh my gosh, well I love yeah.
How well, you guys kind of tackle those unique eccentricities of such a unique situation with such humor and grace in the book. And least also the fact that you had skinner skin like straight away and that there was never a moment. I think I cried when I read you just saying that He's there's never been a moment where you aren't Hugo's mom, like the whole way through, it's just so and said that there's been no moment where you did feel that way.
Yeah, and so like you said with your mom, the mannerisms already, like all the way through, it is the wildest thing. How often I'll look over and he's like doing something like it's just like just very very similar. And he overheats. I overheat.
I mean, I mean you live up north, so that's kind of also.
Easiest thing.
It was a hot day and we both got we were sweating.
Oh my god, job, I don't want to take away from anything. People are like, oh, yeah.
The sides, there are sides, lots of them, but yeah, it's pretty well and yeah, the skin to skin the birth, which says that we do go into a lot of detailing the power.
Too, but it's beautiful things. I think this is where sometimes you can watch a movie about a romance and you're like, oh, that's how my life is. This was the opposite. It was like, I feel like I've watched movies and berths and they whisked the baby away and they do whatever they do and they clean them up. So in my mind, I was like, they're going to take him, They're going to take him. And literally I
caught him. I delivered my own baby, and then Stephen cut the cord and then Hugo came straight onto my chest and no one took him away. They didn't clean him. They just like I did everything, and that's where he stayed. It wasn't until we went to weigh him, like a few hours later. I think, like, no one took my baby. And the beautiful moment was once I had my time with him and Saa was kind of out of her parallel universe of being, you know, all the situations that
were happening for her. I took hu go over and together, I you know, put him onto her chest and like just that moment of us together was just so amazing.
I have goosebumps again.
Oh my god.
I mean what a remarkable, beautiful story, and the name is so perfect, the power of two. It is truly like what you were able to achieve together is a human being who's a happy little eighteen month old who's got the whole world ahead of him. Like that is just pure magic.
Yeah it is.
It's definitely the most special, extraordinary thing in the world. And I'm just so glad. I mean that doesn't even touch the surface that you know, I never gave up. I mean yeah, and that's you know, was there for me and unquestionably all the way through, and you know, for that, I am forever and eternally grateful from the moment of me saying, oh hey, he's still interested in
being a sorry girl. From that moment, so I was like, oh, well I have had, you know, all this surgery, but let me just go check like the whole way through. And I think my whole life for some reason, which has made me who I am and tenacious and resilient
and have the ability to overcome things. I think I've you know, as many of us have been let down many times, and so I just learned but not once ever, every single time, Sale was just calm, cool and collected and she's like, oh, I'll just find that out and yell, let's go. And even you know when we did when the first baby on round seventeen didn't take, and then I was like, oh god, will she want to do it again? And you know, straight away it says it
wasn't even like let's wait a month. I was like, yeah, how quickly can we do it? So she's been there like an absolute rock and waveringly the entire way through. And I think that's really what one of the really important messages in the book as well. It's not, yes, Scus is the true story, but this is about the power of friendship and the power of community, and the power of being vulnerable enough to say I need something, and the power of if you have the ability to
help someone, step up and help them, you know. And on that someone reached out to me on Instagram. Funnily enough a few days ago and said, oh, hey, I've been wanting to reach out to you for like the last year and offer to be a surrogate for you,
but I thought that you'd just be inundated. Well no, I haven't been in undated, but so I think, just never be afraid to offer you know if you see someone struggling or you see someone needing something, offer because you never know, like what an impact and how much that can help someone else.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And I love as well, Sarah, how open you've been to like your whole family. It's Lisa, you said it takes a village. It's not just Sarah, it's Sarah's family and the three kids. Like, I love how much you still are all catching up all the time, and everyone's in each other's lives, and what a beautiful story for the ages, like for all of the family members, Like everyone is involved in this beautiful little child and part of his world.
And my god, I could talk about this forever.
I've realized that it's past twelve, and I know you need to go, Lisa, but just you are both remarkable, extraordinary women for doing it and sharing it with everyone. And Hugo is just magical. I cannot wait for Teddy and Hugo to meet, and just thank you both.
Well, thank you Sarah and Sarah.
Oh well, for anyone who is interested in more detail, there is so much I mean, like literally so much honesty and openness and detail in the power of two emotionally, logistically, everything you would ever want to know, and I'll also include links in the notes to Lisa's page, sales page, wherever you might want to go to get other resources.
But thank you.
Both so much, and congratulations on everything.
Amazing, Thank you so much, Thank you, Ah.
I learned so much in this episode, and I still feel like we didn't scrape the surface.
I really do wish I could just read the entire book out to you guys.
In fact, maybe for some episodes I should do an audiobook in chapters of books that I've really enjoyed, I highly recommend you grab a copy of the Power of Two. It is not just about surrogacy, but also tenacity, resilience, friendship, thinking outside the box, and just the grit of sticking with a goal. For goodness me eight years. I will pop the link in the show notes and share links
to Lisa and Sarah's socials and pages as well. To anyone on their own journey, I hope there may have been a glimmer of hope or a small piece of information that helped you on your way, or sparked something that you might not have felt.
Or thought about before.
I truly believe that our earlier struggles for Nick and I personally at least were all because our little Teddy was just waiting before his time. But in the moment, it can be one of the most emotionally grueling, complex, confusing, and exhausting times of your life. I've been there, so I absolutely understand Sending so much love to all of you.
And if there is any other topic like surrogacy that you'd like to hear more about on Caesar Baby, or a particular guest or expert that you'd like to hear from, please do always send me a DM or an email. I also often run out of ideas and love to hear your requests or your perspectives, so love this to be a neighborhood production. In the meantime, we will be back soon with a regular guest episode.
I hope you are.
Having a wonderful start to the year.
January just has flown by.
I kind of feel like every year I just make February first the start of my new year.
I hope you guys are all seizing your yay.
Father am regent, a father, a humanly residing from