In anyone's great success story, there is always there's always hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many people trying to do the thing that we're trying to do. We're searching for these binary answers for everything. But everyone likes different things and that's okay. Just find your person that likes the similar things to you. If you need to talk about anything with your partner or with your friend, if you go in with an inquisitive mindset, going with curiosity, you can't lose.
Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives.
They adore, the good, bad and ugly.
The best and worst day will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found Matcha Maiden and Matcha Milk Bark CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and.
Fulfillment along the way.
Hope you're having a wonderful week lovely neighborhood and to those of you I've been lucky enough to meet in person on the Keeper Cleaner Tour in Adelaide and Auckland over the past couple of weekends, you have absolutely made my year. It is always such a pleasure to meet neighborhood members out in the wild. We're heading to Perth this coming weekend for the final leg of Kick Tour this year, so hopefully I get to meet some more of you there. Please send me a DM if you're
coming along. I don't want to miss any of you. If any of you are going to be there, speaking of traveling into state, if anyone needs a little chuckle
or a bit of extra ya this week. Another random tidbit that happened in the past couple of days is I made one of my unhinged videos on social media, which you know I love to do, sharing what I think is the perfect analogy between Melbourne and Sydney involving them being sisters, which a went viral over the past couple of days, which is hilarious in itself, but b sparked a comment conversation that was a thousand times funnier, Like literally thousands of people weighing in on how they
see Melbourne and Sydney, or how they see all the other states and how they fit into the family tree of Australia. It's just so funny. It's better than Netflix. Just going through the comments is the best thing that's ever happened. So go and check that out if you need a laugh. But that is not my point for today.
It's been a pretty busy time lately, obviously, but in the days that I was in Melbourne, I was lucky enough to catch the legendary Rob Mills to record an episode in celebration of his brand new book, Putting On a Show. I only got my advanced copy about twenty four hours beforehand, and I kind of thought i'd give it a quick once over to prepare these questions, and that i'd go back and read it in more detail at a later time. But I could not put it down. I read the entire thing in depth in one go.
It's such a fabulous and very much needed exploration of the average Aussie bloke, our shifting and sometimes distorted perception of masculinity. With Rob's beautiful knack for storytelling and personal anecdotes weave throughout, there is a reason this man has been so successful in showbiz. He is warm, witty, vulnerable, honest and open minded, all of which comes through in
the book. I'll let him tell you more about it himself, but we also get to cover the parts of his pathier that you might not have heard as much about between the Australian Idol and Paris Hilton related headlines. You know, I love getting into all the chapters we know much less about, and Rob was very obliging and a joy to listen to. I also definitely did that thing where
I wanted to cover so much all at once. Perhaps I should have read the book not in twice so much detail beforehand, so that I wouldn't have so many questions to ask in one episode. So I do probably jump around a bit crazily, but hopefully you enjoy. Nonetheless, just a very quick content warning as well. We do touch on mental health and suicide briefly in the conversation, so listener discretion is advised.
Melsy, Welcome to seize thee.
Thank you for having me. I've been watching from Afar and it's delightful. There was a lot of yay in your world, a lot of yay lovely humans. I'm glad I'm now considered.
A Yaya, part of the yighborhood.
That's how we refer to that community, a yighborhood. I like that.
Yeah, it's a good one, you know. I love a pun.
I can't walk past one, can't walk past an opportunity. It is such a privilege and pleasure to have you here. I've literally just spent the last twenty four hours pouring over your brand new book. I got a copy I think twenty five hours ago, and I was like, I can't wait. I need to have it moved. I've read the entire thing.
Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, it was a couple of years of writing, researching, working together with Paul Connolly, who's just incredible. So many great conversations with him, back and forth with the editor towards the end as well, what to keep, what to throw out. He was amazing and instrumental in putting all my thoughts and feelings together and yeah, just letting me feel like I'm in a safe space, I suppose, in order to let it all out.
I think what's so beautiful is the book itself and the way it's written and how much personal anecdote is interwoven with you know, really important statistics and science and research.
Is that you've created a safe space for other people.
I think in sharing your story so openly and vulnerably, I think you'll create a real safe space for people who otherwise maybe haven't had one before.
So it's really beautiful. That's kind of thing, that's the kind of the point of the book, but also kind of the point of life. Like, we have horrible suicide rate in Austraia, especially for men. So I wanted to go, well, all right, how do how do we get them to get to a place where they feel like they're not alone, they feel like they do belong, they can talk about
this stuff. So if I held anything back, I didn't feel like I'm not walking the walk, you know, I'm not walking the talk, so that I had better let everything out there and be vulnerable and create enough space. It's kind of what you do when you having conversation with the mate. If you create the space to be vulnerable have a vulnerable chat. Then they feel like, all right, well they've showed me something. Yeah, I'll show you something, you know, let's kind of it's part of how it works.
Seven minutes later, you're a volunteers a position on the floor together.
It's beautiful, embracing with your best mates. It's great, it's great.
Well, I'm so excited to get into the book, and particularly the fact that I think one of the most amazing parts of having a podcast is that this is so fresh for you. This is like twenty four hours after you've seen your first copy, and I love that in a year's time you'll be able to listen back to how nervous you were and all your first impressions.
About how it feels.
But first, it would be remiss with me not to ask you the icebreaker, but be just talk very quickly through a couple of the dots that had to connect for you to get here, because I think people often walk into your life at this chapter, even the Australian Idol chapter, like big chapters of your life that are much more publicized, and forget that like once upon a time there was a little Rob Mills who had no idea how it was going to work out, if it was going to work out which direction.
There's an older young Miles to still think he's got no idea what more so now I no can idea.
But I think tracing through those sort of steps in the staircase is really reassuring for other people that now you may have, you know, a lot of introspection, self awareness and joy and fulfillment. But it doesn't always happen overnight. In fact, it never does.
No, absolutely not.
So very first question to break through the ice, especially as an actor, TV host, singer, songwriter, it's pretty glam on the outside. Sure, what's something very down to earth about you? Like the most relatable? What would Tunny say is the most relatable thing about you?
I've got a weird habit. I have a toothpick habit. In fact, how weird. I don't actually have one on me right now, but I always have one in the car door. It's like one of those little pixture things, no way, like it's.
Just a straight one, or like the actual dental things that have like.
The flosstick, the flastic flastic. I love them, obsessed with them. I found out a few years ago that they existed, you know, like with floss, you have to wrap it around your fingers. You're drooling on your hands trying to put your fingers in your mouth and get through all the flastick. Probably not very environmentally friendly.
But definitely disposaball single use. But that's fine, single use of that's disgusting and amazing.
Yeah, that's that's my thing. I love it. I can't go on stage if I haven't lossed. I can't do a gig. So I've flushed before I got here.
No ginger badis over there.
Super healthy gums. Yeah, I love dental hygiene.
I love it. That's the best.
That's definitely down to earth And strangely, Nick has recently got on the dental floss pick. That's how I knew what they were. Bandwagon and we were recently. I can't even remember we were overseas.
We're in Italy.
Don't tell me.
You drop that into the conversation.
I was watching your Instagram. It's just thank you.
In Italy.
He was like, I just I can't. I didn't bring my flow sticks, Like, what am I going to do? So he went to a pharmacy and bought this hundred packs.
Done. I've done that on a night out with friends, Like, what do you do with the hundred? I just need one.
I couldn't just right now.
Yeah, it's not like a one hundred. It's one hundred or nothing that I need one. I can't go zero.
It's crazy.
Is that hating about to people? They're like, oh, this is interesting. I think that's good because that's where a lot of your bad breath comes from.
It is us.
It's from food that's stuck in hard to reach places. So just guys, get on to it. You won't regret it. I expect some dms.
It is quite a game changer. Yeah, neighborhood, this is a challenge. Go and get a gentle plastic and then report back to Melsy.
Thank you.
Yeah, don't do worry about the book.
Just get get some old steak back.
There Another really lovely, down to earth thing about you that I need to mention. We've already spoken about it quickly today is you won't probably find all the things you'd find in your back teeth. It's probably not seafood because you and Georgie don't really eat seafood. But this is how kind Milsy is. He found out that near his house a new restaurant. I think a friend had opened the restaurant and to be a beautiful, supportive friend and to be a lovely host who then invited us
to experience this beautiful restaurant as well. He took us out for dinner, and they don't eat seafood, but the entire menu is only seafood. It was like, and I didn't realize this until like halfway through the dinner. You were like, yeah, we don't really eat seafood. And there's like a smallest board of the ocean on the table.
It looked delicious for you guys.
The level of kindness that what did you guys eat?
Like chips had some pollentid chips or something. And I think there was some bread.
Some fad some bread passed around like great meal.
Like a snack. It was some lovely wine as well.
The best.
Still a great time. It's all about the conversation. It's all about the chat.
Oh but I mean that's just a snippet of how kind and thoughtful and lovely you guys both are. So yeah, I just felt like I had to bring that up front.
Also had to find a partner that doesn't like seafood very compatible. Yeah, very compatible.
Is that when you knew like yes, was dining it's un compatible.
That's all we need to tick. You're got to tick some of the box. So that was like, that's I just need one.
All right, your way to yay. This is a bit where we kind of quickly go through your path yay. And I feel like, because you do have a public profile, a lot of information is available. Elis where and I want to spend most of the time.
In your book.
But just quickly, did Young Rob playing Sunday sessions at Red Eagle Hotel in Albert Park, yep, ever think he would be an author?
Absolutely not? No, absolutely, absolutely no way. Young Rob was eighteen singing at the Red Eagle Hotel, the Monash Hotel, notting Hill Hotel, Anglis Tavern, not Yeah breakers in Preston. Yeah. I was singing all across Melbourne in my little cover band, whether it was acoustic duo trio kind of thing or we're in a full band as well, cricket clubs and footag clubs. That was I never thought I would be
writing books, Absolutely not. I just loved performing, I suppose, but I suppose it's it's not too far out of stretch. It's just story telle. Like really, when you think of it, singing songs, even when I was sing covers as a kid, I was always trying to find the story. I didn't even think about it. I was just always trying to sing what the story was of the song, you know, like even if it's a pop song, there's still a story that goes with that boy mets girl or like
hardship or whatever whatever that the song is. I was always trying to sing the meaning of the song, and which ime.
I sing it that's so nice?
Yeah, subconsciously or whatever. But so maybe just always been a storytyp.
That's the opposite of me I was singing. I think back all the time to the lyrics that I used to sing when I was like thirteen, not having any clue about the story of the meaning. Thank god, I had no idea what I was singing, because I'm like my poor parents listening to me sing about, like, oh, just horrible.
What are the kids now singing a bit of wow to their parents?
What really wonderful?
Isn't it? Wet and Gushi, Yeah, he's the new version.
Speaking of wet angushy, I hear about you first discovered for mega man by being overheard in urinal. I mean talk about things coming out of you know, left of center. Yeah, opportunities landing in your laps.
The footy club. I played football. All I wanted to do as a kid was be a footballer, So I wanted to play AFL. I worked really hard. It turns out I wasn't very good. I wasn't good enough.
That's a shame. Yeah, that's a real shame.
But I was okay at singing. And I was in the toilets one night there was a band playing and I was having a having a whizz at the urinal and this guy heard me singing and he's like, is he pretty good singing? I'm like, a all right. He's like, my brother's in a band. Do you want to come down to rehearsal. They're looking for a singer. So it's like, yeah, sure.
I've been discovered in a urinal.
Yeah. So I started doing that. My dad was a bit nervous that I'd be hanging out with older men in a in a rehearsal room and stuff, so he drove me there and watched the rehearsal and chaperone, Yeah, a chaperone, even though I had my license and a car, so okay, cute, but yeah, so I did that for it was three or four years with those guys, and then then I did astraanadol straight after that.
So one of the things I think is so interesting when you speak to anyone in kind of the creative industry who's an artist, is that there are so many of us who begin and in our younger years interested in music or performing, but it's very very rare. In fact, there's so much active dissuasion against going into a career in that industry because it's so competitive, because it's not an obvious straightforward pathway, it can be so hard, so very few people actually end up being able to make
it a career. And I had no idea until read in the book that you actually started an electrical apprenticeship of all things, but then have been able to obviously make this your career. So I think the thing I like to hammer home to people is that most people have dabbled in a few different things, but that also, even though there might be a hugely competitive industry or just a few places.
Like, someone's got to make it. So how did you get through?
Did you have any dissuasion or people being like, you know that's going to be really hard for you, or did you just know that this was you and you tried electrical stuff and then we're like no.
So my dad was always like, you should have a trade or have a job behind you, just in case the music thing doesn't work out. Although I changed schools at the end of year ten to do in year eleven so I to do drama and music, turns out I got a D plus my singing exam, so very much.
Like distinguished plus.
E plus my oral exam in music. I dropped out of drama at the end of your eleven because I didn't think I was good enough and I felt like I got really nervous and I didn't want to put
myself out there in front of people acting. Singing, I seemed to be fine, but for the exam I didn't really work hard enough at all, like on the songs that I had to learn for the syllabus, and I learn't really really really valuable lesson through high school you actually have to work hard to get results, Like, oh wow, that sucks. I didn't realize like that was a thing.
My least favorite lesson in life it's kind of.
Like you only get out what you put in, so rude, oh horrible, And I just had no work ethic. I hated school, didn't really like it, not hated, but just didn't really like it. I just felt like you had to go. Then I loved doing electrical work. I did it as a work experience kind of thing. So I went and did a pre apprenticeship. I've got an electric I got a job. Then I found out I was terribly color blind, which I sort of knew. I was a big colorblinde ye.
And your brother was colorblind.
Yeah, he wanted to be a cadet in the Air Force and didn't get into that because he was colorblind. Yeah. After being at Melbourne High he was super smart. And then just know it was a bit dismayed, I think from not doing that and then didn't really try much at high school. I think I kind of did the same things, like what's the point? What am I doing? Yeah, did heaps of jobs though after that, where there was
mowing lawns at like disused mobile service stations. I put up signs at the airport and had a big advertising banners. I did that for a while. I was like all my mates were tradees, so I just did landscaping work. I did carpentry work, plastering, yeah, a bit of concreting. There's nothing that I haven't really, not one trade I haven't tried out. And then yeah, I just kept singing on the weekends and the man was going pretty well, and a friend of mine said, do you want to
try it for this TV shot? My gosh, So I was always gigging, I suppose, yeah.
Okay, and it's like in the background you were still doing it.
Yeah, that was my thing. I was always gigging, but I was working like every day, and then I also working every weekend. So while everyone was at partying, I just worked, just trying to save up for a house or something.
Yeah. Yeah, real sense of or goals, Yeah I had.
I honestly, that's all I really wanted to do. I was like, oh, but what I was doing was not listening to myself at all during that time. I just put all my focus into work and did no self reflecting for ten fifteen years. Yeah.
And that's like the exact underlying theme and philosophy is this show is swapping that sees the day mentality, which is not a bad thing. To work incredibly hard and have kind of financial metrics and goals or certain like linear goals for yourself, but when they're totally detached from your own fulfillment and the intersection of your talents and passions, like it doesn't really lead to a very happy life,
even if on the outside it looks amazing. And I get really fascinated by the sliding doors moments in life that then sometimes give you an opportunity to be pulled out of that and back towards the thing that you really love. So I mean Australian I it was such a pivot.
Yeah, huge, huge, It just made me realize, oh, I really love this. And I didn't just love the performing aspect. I mean, going from singing thirty songs a night in a pub band just singing just one song or half a song really like I'm in It and a half. I was like, oh, this is pretty good. But so I had so much more free time. Yeah, so I learned
how the camera operators are working. I went and sat up in the desk in the studio with the director and learned what they did and learn like spoke to the producers about what they were kind of doing with each of us like the character. We were characters really, you know. We were the very first reality singing show since pop Stars.
Oh my gosh, oh my god, you were the first season.
That's right. And I didn't do very well at pop Stars. I also auditioned for that show, did you really? Yeah, not for the first one, the second one. I think it became scandalous. If you remember.
Opstar is what a throwback?
Yeah. I think I was eighteen when I did that. So yeah. So three years later astrain Idol came around. It's crazy. I was always sort of trying for stuff but not quite knowing how to do it very well. Yeah, and then I sort of just learned on the job. And then we toured with a national tour. Then I wrote an album, and then to the album, and then the record company dropped me. And I was like, I thought this just kept going up. Yes, thought that was the directory smooth yeah, yeah, but then it was a
full jump off the cliff. You know, the rollercoaster has to come back down. Yeah, and now now what you know? Your manager doesn't want you to sing in pubs anymore because that's what you used to do. It's got something else for you to do, like, I don't really know what else to do. I don't know how to write music really well. I don't really know how to do any of the stuff. And that's when I got into two thousand and five. It was a couple of years
after Idle. I did Grease the Arena spectacular, John Farnham making Zavanski nat Bass, huge cast, incredible, and I met all these really wonderful musical theater people. This incredible like work ethic, that work hard, party hard. I was like, I want I want to be friends with these guys. You know I love. I had this party hard ethic, but I didn't have the work hard and I wanted, you know, them to respect to me. Is that I didn't have it.
I had the party of it, just not the word downpat.
How do I become friends with these people? Or you have to gain their respect to be their peers. So I sort of fell in love with musical theater a bit and heard about the show called Wicked. So I went overseas and I saw Wicked and We Will Rock You and Avenue Q all this sort of new musicals that I was like, Oh, it's not all Rogers and Hammerstar. It's not all Andrew Lloyd Webber classical style singing, cool this pop and rock singing sort of stuff. I was like,
I can I can do that. I saw Adam Garcia, Helen Delly Moore, a couple of Aussies in the show. However, if they can do it, you know, you've got that old days You've got to see it to be it kind of thing.
And it's like that visibility of your dreams totally.
So I found from that day that I would get into Wicked. So I came home from my drunken overseas backpacking trip. You know, I did four or five months of just traveling the world, spending all of my money. It was awesome, the best thing I've ever done. And then came home and worked really hard, like took singing lessons, acting lessons, dance lessons. I went, now, I've got to do this. This is the thing I'm it's calling out
for me. Yeah. This character Fierro dancing through life, this sort of joky, kind of charismatic cool guy, not cool at all. I'm not cool. We've established that he was like it was like dancing through life. Like I was like, that was me. I was dancing through life. And then he found the thing that was the most important thing that he'd ever seen. In the show It's alphabet, but for me it was musical theater. Yeah. I found the
thing that gave me real purpose. And I was like, oh, so I got to relive that every single night, that my own sort of personal story journey, yeah, within another story. Yeah.
And this is what I love so much is that when you're telling the story now in order, it all makes sense, Like the fascination with different styles of music and storytelling, and then going through Australian Idol, and then learning all those skills and then getting a bit more confidence, and then going actively after your dreams. But if you spoke to you back at any of those stages, it wouldn't have made sense what you were going to become. And I think anyone who's in there earlier stages it
will eventually all make sense. It will eventually all make sense. But also even the great Robert Mills from Australian Idol doesn't walk into these opportunities either. Like I think it looks kind of smooth now, but you hadn't been in musical theater, You didn't have an inn, you didn't have a foot in the door and you had to go on train as well. So it's like one part life conspiring to help you get to where you need to go, but the other parties you're going out and seizing that
and grabbing it and kind of making it happen. But I imagine there.
Was like a lot of that self doubt.
Worthiness imposter syndrome going on as well, not necessarily having come from musical theater.
Huge, huge amount. I remember my brother just saying, don't read the blogs.
Yeah, don't read the exults.
So blogs for a big thing back in the early two thousands.
Between newspapers and social media they think or blogs.
Yeah. When I got asked because I said to my manager, you need to get me this audition. And when I got cast and they didn't want to see me in the beginning, wow, So she had to push really hard
to see me. I had four auditions over like three or four months with American creatives, and I thought I stuffed up the first audition, And years like after I'd finished got this audition, I found out that the director actually grabbed the picture after my audition and put it aside and went and then every audition she'd grab my picture and go, literally, we're going to put the show around this guy. And she had no idea who I was, didn't know I was Astralia Idol. Didn't I know, way, Yeah,
I found out later. She didn't tell because I was still like doing all these auditions, freaking out it.
Yeah, thinking they.
Hate you like you never you always walk away being more critical of yourself than anyone else. Ever, is not realizing that, like they singled you out as in a.
Good pile like that was not the well let's get rid of that guy. I was over there.
But yeah, I didn't really believe in myself. So I would write down positive affirmation stuff and I've never done this is I did it going into Idle, I wrote to get into it. I was in the top forty. I wrote down, I do believe that I can be the guy to be in the top twelve, Like I was, like, I do belong here. And then I did the same thing for Wicked every time before I went into the audition,
I wrote down, I've done the work, I do deserve this. Yeah, yeahda, Like I just wrote down some positive before I went in. It was and I'm not a believer in the secret or anything. Like that.
But but that's manifesting. Its kind of you kind of kind of did the.
Secret, dude, manifesting kind of it kind.
Of works, kind of worked, Yeah, and it.
Kind of does. I think manifesting is good as long as it's not deluded. You still you still have to do the work as well. You can't just say it a million dollars. Yeah, Yeah, that doesn't happen. You still have to yea, do the work and to manifest it properly.
Yeah, And I think that's.
And also there's an incredible matter of luck. I also have to point this out. There is so much luck involved in anyone's great success story. There is always there's always hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many people trying to do the thing that we're trying to do. Yeah, and so much luck goes into it. But there is a thing my stepfathers talked about years ago, and I don't talk about him a lot with much fondness, but I can still reflect on some good things.
Phil.
This is Phil. He said, the more I practiced, the luckier I got.
Yes, I love that.
It's a good little bit.
I also feel like you can see a lot of people be position themselves where luck is going to strike, but they're not converted into anything. I think part of imposter syndrome and self doubt, which is always a big conversation on the show because everyone has it at every stage in their life.
I got it right now, is that?
Yeah? And me too always is that.
You attribute too much of your success to luck because it's easier to say I was just lucky. But I think a lot of people get lucky situations or might have been in the same rooms as you or in the same situations and not used it, so it's not ever only like like we'll never get you all the way there, And I think people forget how much of them converting that like into something is part of the story as well.
Yeah, and as said before, like doing the work beforehand, like all the experience of just doing gigs on stage at pubs or whatever, or setting up the cables or chatting to the crew, like I know how much it means to put a big show together, or all the things that all the elements, And I think that helps when you walk into an audition as well. Yeah, Like having done a bunch of stuff, you've got a bit more confidence within yourself because yeah, you also know what
it's like to not do the gigs. So the last couple of years, every night that I'm on stage, at the moment, I'm like, yeah, how good is this? They claps? The only job in the world. We clapped, The only job in the world where you finish a shift and people go very good.
I feel like we should bring in just an applause general rule, Like someone says me a good breakfast, Yes, slashed avocado, it was appause worthy, Yes, thank you.
I thought this, like I wanted to call this thing like a giving back kind of the gratitude kind of thing, but like a standing o. So what does a standing oh? So, like maybe it's someone at the register just doing a great job putting them in the bags, standing out.
Or doing it to the beat, like creating a beat as she can scance it through.
Yeah, but yeah, if it's a good breakfast, I will always like thanks chef, like.
Yeah, cute, give credit with appreciation, Give credit with credit.
We call that appreciation.
Oh this is good.
Yeap, yep, I'm taking that one as well.
Well. You have obviously gone on to convert what I'm sure has been a lot of lucky circumstances to also a lot of incredible hard work putting yourself out there and.
Going through some ups and downs.
Like I think people forget that the definition of an artist's journey is rejection. Like you are constantly facing rejection. You don't have the stability of like one job for twenty years. It just doesn't work that way. So there's so much hard stuff that goes on behind the scenes, But there's also so many highlights, Like there are too many here to list. You've gone from oh, I might do musical theater to now being in Hairspray, which is
why you're back in Melbourn, which is so exciting. But I think also I really want to use the rest of the episode on the book because it just is such an incredible I think one of the things that's really beautiful is how much you've talked about storytelling and injecting what you've been going through in your life into the roles that you've played on stage. I feel like
you've also done that in the book. It's come from the languishing that we all felt in COVID, the lockdowns, losing the joy in most things, even for quite optimistic, bubbly happy people and sharing how you built that up, the introspect that it led to, and the reflections on so much at the same time as you were actually experiencing it, I think makes it so powerful. So can you talk us through how you went from Okay, I've done the singing, I've done musical theater, and now I'm going to write.
It came about after losing a couple of mates in twenty twenty to cancer. Cancer.
For the cancer absolutely.
For all those who've lost someone, it's horrible. And then during that time especially, I'm sure we've all been affected or no, someone was affected by not being able to get to the hospital say goodbye, but not being able to go to the funeral to say goodbye or to grieve among your tribe. It was really difficult. So I didn't get to any of those funerals because of lockdown and border closures, and that was pretty pretty shit. And then I found I didn't really process it well because
I was just there with Tunny. And Tonny is great. She is an excellent sounding board for stuff, as we've talked about. But I caught up with mates and went back to drinking when the doors were open again. You know, we're allowed outside, and then I was like, oh, I'm sad because alcohols are depressant and I haven't really dealt with anything. But yeah, I haven't really dealt with the fact that I haven't been working, or I haven't that I've lost a couple of friends, or oh this is
not great. So I wrote about that, that state of languish she and the sadness that comes with it, and also just putting a hand up saying, oh, I'm actually not doing so good at the moment, and people a lot of people wrote back. I was like, that's really brave. I was like, I don't think it's actually I didn't see it as being brave. I just felt this is
how I felt. And the publisher saw the article that went up in the Age and City Morning Herald and said, would you be interested in writing a book about something about something like this? And I was toying with the idea of a story or a show about identity and Australia, Australia's identity. How I think we're just in our youthful twenties at the moment.
As a country trying to work a workshit, and we're still a bit drunk, bit hungover.
All, yeah, we'ren't quite We've.
Got a bit going on in our in our brain hormones so much.
Just I totally agree.
Just partying, we're just blowing everything up and digging things out of the ground, not really planning for the future living. We're in our twenties right, so we're going through this
transitional phase anyway. I said, Oh, that's too big. I said, Look, all I can do is probably reflect on what I know about identity myself and maybe is like what we talk about the Aussie bloke, and that's how I see myself and a little bit different and weird because I like footy and I like musical theater and I like actually that how many of how many blokes like that? Actually?
Are they more blokes like that? Or are they more like tattooed blokes than yeah yeah, yeah, Southern Coast tattoo wearing blokes that I don't really hang out with or don't really know, but they also exist. So what is it to be an aussy man? And what is masculinity? Is it always toxic? And how much are we reflecting or self reflecting? How much? How many other blokes are actually doing this or want to do this? But just don't know how. And I was like, I don't really know,
so let's find out. So I asked a bunch of experts and that's how it sort of came about. It was just going to be a series of sort of interviews. I don't know whether that was going to be a podcast, but then I thought, I think for me, I like the book. I like the way that you can reflect during a book. You can put it down and just have a moment. We're so caught up in binging everything on Netflix since like it just starts without you and I don't even know what happened in the last episode
started the next one like oh cool, cool cool. So I kind of like the idea of the book is is the time to self reflect. They're really good, as is a podcast as well, but like something about the pages, maybe you want to write some stuff in them, or you can do all that sort of stuff as well, or at the end of every chapter just wrote stop just.
Think, yeah, do some notes. I did that too. Look I've got dot points.
Man chapter, think for five just think for five minutes, think for two minutes. Yeah, about how you feel about that bit? Does that resonate with you at all or does it not resonate with you? I think we just don't stop enough to do that. Yeah.
I also think one of the things with particularly with quite heavy or shocking statistics that really need the impact, really needs to land on you for the impact of the rest of the conversation around it to go in is seeing it written down. There's something about that. There's something about reading your vulnerability, Like talking about it is one thing, but knowing that you have committed a lot
of stories to paper, it's so permanent as well. I don't know, there's something a lot more powerful I find And if you did a podcast series it would be amazing.
But you couldn't take that with you anywhere, or you.
Couldn't like scribble all over it or I don't know, hold it with you when you were having a moment.
Like my parents will like like, why are you sharing all.
These I don't know. I don't know really because.
It's important to be able to share this stuff so then other people feel like they can share their stuff. Yeah, that's how I felt, like why are you sharing this? Like my mom's like, have I been a bad mom? I like no, If you read to the end, Mum, you'll see that. I really love our relationship now, like that I am the man I am today because of these things. Yeah, and I'm a good guy. I'm a great I'm a great guy. And also my brother's good.
Good humans. You know, you've raised really good humans because of all these things. So my dad's like, oh, I don't know if you. I don't know why you put that thing about your mother. I was like, it's my it's my story, it's my story. Yeah, yeah, totally. Everyone has their own version of events. Everyone has their own story going on all the time. Like you and I even now right sitting here, we have our own dialogue going on. But you're thinking exactly different. You look at my left eye.
I actually wasn't doing it, and now I remember that I do.
Oh man, well, I love that it started as a real investigation into sort of what's going on behind the bravado of the average AUSSI bloke, Like there's so much bravado there's like I love you described it as the Tony Lockett, that Plugger cross with a little bit less attractive version of Feugh Jackman, Like that's who we all envision, which it is, Like there's something something endearing about the AUSSI Bloke, the Mean three Bage.
The like.
There's just this beautiful picture that we resonate with a lot, but investigating whether that is actually who the majority of Australian males are. I think that was amazing as a starting question because I think it's something we don't talk about that much. But then realizing and uncovering through a lot of research that there is a bit of a distorted perception of masculinity going on, and that perpetuating that is creating a lot of problems.
I mentioned to you before.
Every year on Men's Health Week we do an episode looking at the concept of masculinity and how it's changing and how men's mental health does need its own area because it's a very different conversation to what is going on in the female landscape. And doctor Zack Sidler, we've had him on as well, and he's mentioned a lot throughout the book that we're in the teething stages of something something's changing, we're all not really sure what to
do with it. I love that Jamilla Risby, she's also been on the show and she's amazing different who I admire a lot. How women and the female perspective of masculinity and what we're expecting in the space we're creating is also really important. There's just so many elements of it.
But can you talk to us a little bit about what the current understanding of masculinity is where you see the problems and also as someone who has very comfortably been able to do the footy sport manly thing and be in musical theaters that are less man less traditionally manly, and how that's sort of yeah, playing out for you and why you think it's so important to write about.
Have you know that that singing and dancing has been very manly for many men.
Very manly.
Yeah, also ballet, like talk about a good physiqueat male ballet dancers.
Parry Garside does ballet and punches holes in people.
Absolutely.
He was on the show a couple of weeks ago and I was like, this eight pac thing that's very musculine, very masculine.
He's someone who's definitely breaking down the stigma of mental health and blogs and what it is to be a man. I really like him. I would love to have him on the in the book, but there was already had so many, so many people, but he was definitely on the list, hoping to get a copy to him as well.
I think there's a hangover from our grandfathers and fathers, this sort of stoical bloke who doesn't talk about things, who goes to work, comes home, he is raising the kids twenty thirty minutes a week, like the wife does all the low touch methods. The wife does most of the new nurturing and that sort of stuff. He does the disciplinary stuff, and that has shifted over time, like
definitely over time. I'm talking about more of our grandfather's here, and I'm generalizing as well that I'm sure there were grandfathers and blogs that weren't necessarily doing that as well. Majority of the people and there's the sort of stick your chin out and don't cry, don't talk about your feelings, and that happened for a long time because boys don't cry. You don't want to be a worse, you don't want to be a sissy, and the same goes for girls.
You don't want to be too brave because you don't want to be too bossy instead of like, oh no, they're just being assertive.
In the corporate world, so difficult to navigate that fine line between masculinity and feminine for every gender has trouble I think with that balance.
And Jimilla talks about that a lot as well. So I think we are shifting. The shift is happening, but all these shifts take time, and we're expected to not only be the breadwinner, the bloki that I will push you out of the way in case something heavy is coming,
you know, like I will stop a fight. Is I have to stop this fight from hurting the people around me that I love to also being able to talk about it later, and holding your partner or being held by your partner, Like there's there's so many things that blokes are expected to do now, and I think that is confusing for a lot of blokes, and they just don't know how to put the hand up and so I just don't know what you want. And for a lot of women, it's just creating that safe space for
your partner. And I'm talking about CIS relationships, heterosexual CIS relationships at the moment with any kind of partner that you have opened that space, open that door for them to walk in. Throughout the sixties and seventies, we were women's rights movement was moving across the world, and women were moving into more masculine kind of male dominated areas,
which is fantastic because of the quality of crisis. Of course this is the best thing to happen, but possibly those traditional female spaces weren't being opened up to men, or they didn't know that they could walk into those spaces or how to do it or how to do it. Yeah, So I always say I talked to Mrasiana this and Jamilla and my friend Michelle Brazier, like, maybe women, this is the This is the hardest thing to say without the accouncel right now, but we're not very good at it.
Give us a hand, yeah, Like I know what's going to be like to take the high ground. You're like, we have been trying so hard romp for years to just be equal, and now you want our help Like yeah, just like yeah, yeah, because that's that's how it works. That's how the world works. Like to get what you need, you have to help help others. You have to be a moltruistic and not expect a lot back from it, but you will get so much back from it. Just
open that door to the conversation. There are also a lot of women in CIS relationships that are like, I love my man just being the breadwinner. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, And I feel that almost those women feel a lot of.
Pressure to be otherwise, to be otherwise, to have to they're giving up their feminism.
Correct, correct, but like, if that's what you like, then that's what you like, and that's also okay. Well, there's a massive spectrum. There is no black and white, so much gray era we sit in the grays a lot. I think we're searching for these binary answers for everything. But everyone likes different things and that's okay. Just find
your person that likes the similar things to you. That's I think is the most important thing is to open up the dialogue, have the conversation with your partner and with your friends about what it is that you like. Start with a mys Briggs personality test at the very least. Yeah, am I introverted or extroverted? Yeah?
I think it is so interesting because it is a time of massive flux and change in like every area of society, but particularly in the gender roles, and there are increasing situations that we've just never encountered before. It's not very often that like women are out earning their male partners in this relationships often and that's new and
that changes the dynamic. And then there's a lot that you talk about with the unpaid work in a family that women have traditionally borne, a huge load of men haven't but are now but aren't really equipped for it.
And then the biggest problem is without men's circles and a lot of men being what you refer to as man children who just haven't let like women do it so much development through conversations, through women's circles, through just ventilating things with their friends and realizing and making revelations and all that stuff. And because of that traditional stereotypical, stoic male men are bottling everything and then it comes.
Out in in rage.
You have a big chapter on anger, a big chapter on suicide, but also behaviors like going to alcoholism and drugs for escapism because it's like, what do I do with.
All these feelings?
And I think again, because of the stoicism, even once you are feeling that, men are not talking about it and then are not getting the help they need to know what to do about it. And its Yeah, it's a very difficult time, but everyone needs to be part of the conversation to redefine that masculinity.
Yeah. Absolutely, men need to open up more and men need to have a bit more be okay with having those conversations. And also whether it's a female friend or a male friend or non gended friend, just to have the conversation or create the space for men, you have to build the trust for a lot of women. I'm going to generalize here, you will have these conversations all the time, like you said, and you're having these revelations.
We're not doing that like talk about the book, like come home from chatting with like with my mates, you go to the pub and you've had a day maybe on the punt at the pub, and then you, oh, how's some and so how's his wife doing? How the kids? I don't know, we did talk.
About that, George, just like how's how's he going? How's his wife? And you're like, I don't know, what did you talk about, dude.
We'll just talked about like gags and everything else. We didn't really talk about it. But it's okay. We definitely need that space. You need that banter, you need the place to go and have those chats. But also you just need to have the deeper, meaning, more meaningful chats to decide. Gus walland talk about he likes the idea of ninety five percent banter five percent real chat. I would like it to be more like ten to fifteen percent.
I know. I'm like, that's very intense. That's very intense.
It's five percent chat. I'm like, oh, I'd probably like a bit more like for blokes, but.
Look a bit more banter, a little bit.
Yeah, just a little bit more real chat. I would really Oh wait.
So it wasn't it ninety five percent real chat? No, five percent real chat? Oh yeah, no, we want a little bit more than I thought it was the other way around.
I was like, whoa, he was like ninety five percent banter five percent real chat. Because talking also about all your feelings and emotions, it's exhausting. We get compassion fatigue. It's like watching the news twenty four seven. You're just constantly giving out empathy to all the sad things that happening. If you're constantly doing that to your friends, like, that's that's exhausting. I just feel sad. It's like for my psychologists, for my psychotherapist, sorry for Paul. We'll talk about in
the book. He's amazing, Like are you okay? Like everyone are you? Everyone's learning stuff he has I've got, he's got his partner and he's got someone else he talks to be like always feel like are you doing it? Is everyone off learning all this stuff? I feel like it's like John Coffee, like healing, you know, like you're taking all this stuff, You've got to release it somewhere and then.
You urge it out into the world.
Yeah, I urge it out through tears. Yeah.
So this is one of the things I did want to ask you. In your sort of journey, There's there's a lot of anecdotes from your own exploration of the spectrum of masculinity. And one thing I love this is where your sense of humor comes in. That I love that it's like a lot of serious stuff, but also the lightness of your sense of humor is saying things like most men would feel more comfortable disposing of a body than admitting they needed help, which is funny but
also very very true. Like I feel like it's funny until you realize actually, probably no, that'd be you say like, come and let's dig someone up.
They'd be like, yeah, yeah, man, I've killed someone accidentally. I'll be there.
I'll be there, yeah, deep chat, No, absolutely not.
And it's true that that is often the blank because I think there's a few things that happen. There's we don't want to burden our mate with it because we know he's already got other stuff going on. That's the best thing about is going to see a psych because then you can just offload to someone and you don't feel guilty.
I'll pay you to be here.
Yeah, that's good, it's good win win situation. Shouldn't rub down from the physio. It's same same, Yeah, it's the same same, But it's a rub down in your brain. That is exactly what it is. Yeah, it's a rub down in your brain.
Down.
My brain feels so good.
I feel so good now. Yeah, So we don't want to be a burden on our others. Also, there's also the thing of being judged by our mates. Yeah, it's the shame that I've felt this way or that I've done something. So I don't want to tell someone because then they'll feel they'll think less of me. And this goes for across the board. This is not just men, but we hold on to our shame we hold on
to our grief trauma. We don't want to talk about it, Yeah, because we don't want a burden, and we also don't want to be judged by it, and that's not good. And that's I say, create their safe spaces so you can have those chats with your mate, because the character you're not allowed good amount of time is the good amount of the time that other person is definitely thinking the same thing that you have been thinking.
Yeah, totally.
So one of the I want to ask, and I don't want to give away too much from the book, because I think everyone needs to go and read it.
It is so beautifully.
Powerful in sharing some of the seriously worrying statistics really in the male landscape of mental health in particular, and possible steps towards how we can fix the pressure to be a certain type of masculinity, but also weaving in your stories and I think a couple of times where it seems like that shame or that confusion have really kind of rattled to you in your own relationship with your musculinity in yourself has been One was a series of panic attacks when you were at like the height
of Australian idol. So it looked like the dream life on the outside, but was actually a big panic disorder moment, which I've had quite a few times in they're so crippling and debilitating, but we'd love to hear about that. The other one was I don't know if I'm allowed to just fill this tea that's in the book that you had a threesome with Courtney Act, which I think
is amazing. Did not know this and was just poring over that chapter, like what there's a lot of penises going, so much happening, but also that kind of exploration of your sexuality and what that means for masculinity and then the labeling around that, and then also how much there was a whole chapter almost on the average penis size and libido and sex life and why are all those things markers of masculinity? But talking about your feelings isn't like I don't get it either.
Do I? And that's why I wanted to explore it. Or I'll go back to the start. So the first one is the panic attacks when I was doing idle. Luckily for me, doing the work with therapy with the therapists over the last few years, like really constantly has been really good for that. But I haven't really had any massive panic attacks probably since then.
Wow.
Yeah, I was really lucky to address it sort of soon after. I mean, I know in the book I definitely talk about I put it in a box, but I addressed it by putting it in a box. I deal with it.
Yeah, I'm wrapped up all a good padlock on the box.
I addressed that. I definitely addressed it, but like put it in a box, but I didn't Now I know what it is. I think when it first happened, I didn't know what it was at all, and it was terrifying. And yeah, the moment of running to that sliding door at the hotel and just slamming it shut and not jumping off the balcony, it was really even thinking about it now. Luckily for me, I just was like, what are you? Why is that thought even in your brain? Like wow, okay, it was the thought of like, you
could end it all. Now, you don't have to feel this way. You don't have to feel scared, you don't have to feel like everyone wants a piece of you. Didn't. It was just you don't have to feel that way. You could just end it. I was like oh cool, no, no thing, oh maybe or maybe like you know, like yeah, and that all happens in the space of a split second. Like that all happens like in a space of a
split second, and your heart is racing. Unluckily for me, I just slammed that door and called my brother and just said, oh, hey.
Man, I'm good. I'm good.
He's like, hey, go, oh yeah, good day. Yeah. I had a really good day. Indy had a really good time with Levi. We just got got some drinks and just back at the hotel.
Now, just chilling, having a good time.
Pretended that hadn't felt all those crazy feelings again for fear of judgment or shame or whatever, or didn't want to burden him, didn't want him to think that I was not feeling great. And then the sexy stuff. It's kind of like I've never thought like even through high school, was attracted to people, to girls, to boys, I think, and not really knowing how to explore it. And then I met Courtney during Idol. I was like this, this beautiful creature, so confident and sexy, and and then you know,
we had a fairly big night out. We did all the things, drinking and drugs, and back in the day, you know, I was a bit of a party part of a bit of a party kid. No, oh yeah, I was a bit of a part of him.
I did a lot, we did some things. We did some things anymore.
Old now, and that sort of ended up in this kind of body on body on body, and I remember going, this is this is interesting. I remember wake you up the next day going Okay, that was different. Cool, have that a go. And I've given it a go several times throughout my life, which Georgie knows about.
And I'm glad she knows, because this would have been a great time find out the first time in the book.
Here party pashas you know, gay clubs, and just yeah, have them live in my best life. I'm just having a good time. And then yeah, that's that's kind of like how I always looked at it. And then I was always I felt a weird shame or read guilt about it, or like didn't know how to talk about it. And then I was like, what are you doing? Mate? Who cares? Anyone gives a shit, No one cares. Do you like this person? Do you like? And I, yeah, I honestly have never really I don't worry. I don't
worry about it anymore. Yeah, but for a long time, I was like, oh what am I doing? What is this feeling? What is this guilt? And I think a lot of men feel that way, and they're like, I shouldn't feel this way about a bloke or about someone else that I care. You can also care about them. There's one thing I it sort of worked out is I was using sex to connect with people, yeah, and using sex to connect with men with women because I thought that's how you connected.
Vehicle to something that you could have got another way you didn't know.
Instead of like actually just having conversation and having a chat, I used sexual acts or whatever. Like I was like, oh, you're an idiot. You could have just had a conversation and realized.
Conversation Orgie conversation ORGI like, you know, same thing.
But I think a lot of people do that throughout their teens and total and twenties instead of like, I didn't have to get rid of that because you don't know. Your hormones are racing, like this is this is what you meant to do.
This is the funnest.
Yeah, but yeah, I think you sort of just not grow out of not grow out of it. That's not that's not what I'm saying. But I think you realize
there are other ways to connect with people. And I think I was definitely craving a male connection and it was a friendship, I think, leaving high school, leaving mates behind, yeah, not really knowing my place had sort of left the band, and then I had a female manager, Like, yeah, my brother was off making babies and having kids, and like both of my brothers, I was like, I didn't really
have my tribe, my circle of blokes. And since you know, since all that that happened over the over the years, last out of fifteen years, I've I've curated really good blokes around me as like a good yeah, understanding friendships and blokes that I now can go for a walk and talk about anything with. It's super important to have those those relationships, the ones that you cannot just gamble with and do stupid stuff, but also that you can
have proper conversation with. So yeah, that was that's the There was another question. What was the other that was more.
Well the main Yeah, the final question was kind of linked in too. You've actually led to it really nicely was the idea that you've obviously had in yourself a lot of like different interpretations of what masculinity meant, and it's tied in with different parts of your identity at different times, even in your sex life, like trying to
figure out what that means. But that over time now you see him a lot more comfortable with where you are and knowing that you can be manly, but you also don't need to like fit into all those things we were talking about kind of why are the markers of a big penis, of sportiness, of tattoos, like why are all those things still quite present as markers of masculinity.
I think there can be if that's what your partner is into or that's what you're into. The most important thing this is I talked to Georgia Grace. She's a sex therapist. She's also a podcaster. She is incredible. She just talked about breaking down the gender stereotypes in the bedroom. So like to say that you are the blokey bloke of the trade guy or whatever, and you get home, maybe you want to be dominated by your partner.
That's also if that chatter even how gays with the submissive and the dominant, like have issues with who takes on the masculine role based on traditional markers of masculinity.
Yeah, so so interesting.
The idea is just have the conversation and maybe it's different in the bedroom compared to what you're doing outside the bedroom or wherever you're having sex. You could be kitchen, the bath, friend of the car. But it's okay to explore, to try new things. It doesn't mean that you're less masculine, or it just means that maybe you want to be dominated or you want to dominate, like even for the for for a woman, it's okay to want these things.
I talk about the Fifty Shades of Great. There's a reason why that's the most popular book, right, it has to be if all these women are reading this going I want to get strangled, I want to get choked out. And then there's a whole group women are not conflicted.
They're like, I'm a feminist, but like delish confusing.
You can be both, Yeah, so why can't you? Why why can't it be a safe space? But yeah, also blokes don't beat women, but also strangle inroom with consent and safely and absolutely but don't expect it and don't expect blogs to work it out. Like, if there's one thing that I've worked out is we're not going to work it out.
You're not going to figure it out all on your own.
Yeah, we're just not going to because we're having this chat with our mates. We come home, we've we've talked about nothing.
Yeah.
Well, I think the book is just a really beautiful adventure through the different themes and challenges, but also things that have really helped you in the landscape of masculinity today as an Australian guy. And I think one of the really big things I like is how much help you actually give people in like things they can try, like when they are feeling a bit of shame. Is it that we need better role models? Is it that we need like it's interesting in the chapter that you
had no male role models in your life. That's when you started looking for that connection in albeit in things that didn't in your sex life that didn't end up.
Being where you needed it.
But how much help you offer so if you wanted anyone to take something out of this book, who is reading this right now or a few key things like what I often think my goal in life is to leave a conversation for that person to feel better than they did when I came into it. What's your goal for the book when someone picks it up versus when
they put it down? What are the main things you want them to leave with men and women, but particularly men who are maybe a bit earlier on in their journey of masculinity and exploring that.
Self reflect like, think about stuff, think about how you feel about certain topics that think about how you feel about your partner, think about how you feel about yourself. Get to know yourself more. Make time for yourself, whether that's journaling or and that sounds a bit hippie and stuff, but it does really work. Go for walks with your mate, Yeah,
go for drives with your partner. Like we're saying before, not having the director eye contact the whole way through thing is really calming and easy to you find yourself having a better deeper conversation. Long walks like two hours minimum two hours, because once you get through all the small stuff, you've got nothing else to talk about.
So you have to go into the deep stuff.
Yeah. Yeah, so that's a really good one. Self reflect Get aware, aware of your surroundings, the people around you who you tribe. Who are the people that are bringing you most joy? Who are the people that probably not bringing you any joy as well?
A good one, you know, Like, yeah, it's okay for your Like I feel like people into your life for a reason a season in a lifetime, and it's okay if they come in and then fade out in different chapters because you're a different person.
There's a great This is a great thing, my cycle said to me a couple of years ago. Just say that you are I mean, everyone at the moment is the center of their own universe, which is infuriating, but like, okay, let's go with that analogy though, But you are the Sun and you get to control Let's say your friends or your friendship groups or your family are the planets, but you get to control their orbit. So some of them are like some of your close friends around Venus,
you know, they're around Mercury. They're really close to the Sun and the Earth, you know, and they're constantly there all the time. But sometimes they're like Pluto, so then they come around at birthdays and Christmas and then they're gone again. Like you get to control Yeah, how close the cycle. Yeah, this is so weird.
That you just said that, because I always talk about this when people are like, how do you manage your energy? I'm like, there are just x amount of people in your life and they're all on different cycles. And the difficult thing sometimes is when someone's on a two week cycle and you need them to be on a six weeks so you just.
Could push them out.
It sounds terrible, but I'm like, that's how you project your energy. Never thought about it as planets though. I'm like, some people are like Alpha Centauri, like ten million miles. I am like pushing you out into another galaxy, and some people like, yeah, a beautiful way, more beautiful way of saying it.
It's a very good Paul McNiff guy, check you about well music.
Congratulations.
I just want to like talk about every single chapter and every single sentence because it's packed full of such important reflections. I really think for on a personal level, for individuals reading it, but also for people thinking about society as a whole. I think there there's a lot for men at the moment to deal with. There is so much flux and so much change, and it's a real like handbook.
I think.
I don't I've deliberately said, this is not a self help book.
But I don't know handbook like a guide book.
Thank you like a companion, shall we say a companion?
If you will, Yeah, and you can read it. You don't have to read it from front to back. There are different chapters for different things, which I think is good. But also just remember we're getting there. Social change takes time. Any change in humans takes time. Just don't be so outraged going with if you need to talk about anything with your partner or with your friend. If you go in with an inquisitive mindset, we're going with curiosity, you
can't lose. You just can't lose. If you're going with attacking with why avengeful? Why are you doing this? Like, if you're going with a curious, inquisitive mindset, you cannot go wrong. Totally.
Well, thank you so much.
I have one question to finish that with, which I bookend every episode with. Because you know I love quotes and I speak exclusively in quote. What's your favorite quote?
Oh, look, there's a favorite quote. Oh that's really tough, Okay, I will paraphrase. It's about it's an Ira Glass quote that I like. Love Iraglass.
I love that you listen to this American life.
Change my life. So he talks about people that are creative have this taste, and they get into the pursuit of creative things because their taste is so good. They love these creative, awesome things that they see, whether it's film and movies or TV or whatever it is. But in the very beginning, your actual skill level is crap, but your taste is really good. But your actual ability to do the thing, whether it's guitar playing or singing
or podcasting, what it is, it's not good. But in order to get to there, to where your taste is, you've got to do the work. It's the only way. And a lot of people forget that and they just drop off, so they become critics or they become disenfranchised with art itself and they feel like they're not not happy. I'm paraphrasing Heat. The whole idea of it is bridge the gap, do the work so that your ability becomes as good as your taste.
Oh I love that so much, Millsy, thank you so much. Where can we get our copies of putting on a show?
Everyone?
I want to say, at all your favorite bookstores. It'll be out.
Do you even know where it's going to be out somewhere but where books live.
A lot of people have been stimmy pictures of them buying it on Amazon, so that's been pretty cute. So Amazon and bookstores and Gimbite online. And also there's an audiobook coming next to well, I know I'd like to read it. Everyone else's quotes, I'm like, oh, nowhere near as good as how they said it.
I was going to say, reading some of your own, like really vulnerable bits would have been turtle.
Was it just act?
You can hear the frog in the throat for sure? Ye? Amazing.
There's some amazing photos in here as well, the Paris Hilton era, which I on purpose didn't mention because I feel like every article about you ever mentioned it but.
Had had to be done in the chapter. But to be done, there's far more compelling and interesting stories I think in the book than that.
Absolutely, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Isn't Rob just the loveliest if it didn't come across and I didn't rave about it enough. His new book is truly such a valuable contribution to the conversation about masculinity and how we need to redefine some of our outdated definitions of the concept, and I will pop a link in the show notes so you can grab a copy for yourselves.
As always, please him.
Some good old yighborhood love by sharing the episode tagging at Rob millsy Mills, and Us so we can show our gratitude to him and also keep growing the neighborhood as far and wide as possible. I hope you are all having an amazing week and are seizing your yay