These are the yeays of our lives. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives.
They adore the good, bad and ugly.
The best and worst day will bear all the facets.
Of Seizing your Yea.
I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bark. Seize the Ya is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Hello everyone, I'm so glad that you've been loving our running miniseries, and as promised, I'm thrilled to have a second one for you kicking off today.
This one has changed my perspectives and extended my knowledge just as much, but in a completely different way and in relation to completely different.
Pathways to joy.
But that is exactly the essence of Seizing your yea, it's meant to look different for everyone. The thing is so often you don't know what you want your future to look like until you can visualize it or see it represent it somewhere out in the world. But lack of exposure can really hinder people in finding their purpose because they simply don't know it exists. Enter one of the biggest challenges facing women in science, or the industries
broadly referred to as STEM science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and medicine. Today, only twenty eight percent of researchers are women, with less than twenty percent making up the most senior leadership positions, and only three percent of scientific Nobel prizes have been awarded to women. Numerous studies have also found that women in STEM fields publish less, are paid less for their research, and do not progress as far as men in their careers.
There are so many different factors contributing to this disparity, but I'd say one is definitely the misconceptions surrounding what scientists actually do and the industries that they could end up working.
In.
Beauty and cosmetics, for example, is not quite the first industry you'd connect with, say engineering or mathematics, but our partner in this mini series. Lorrel was founded by scientists over one hundred years ago. So without science, Laurel and the many ways they have improved the lives of women around the world simply wouldn't exist, which is why, for over the past twenty years, the Loreal Corporate Foundation and UNESCO have been committed to women in Science to increase
the number of women working in scientific research. In nineteen ninety eight, Loreal and UNESCO founded the for Women in Science Program to promote and highlight the critical importance of ensuring greater participation of women in science. Each year, the program recognizes the achievements of exceptional early career female scientists and awards them with fellowships to help further their research.
And I'm so delighted to bring you the Neighborhood this meet series showcasing the five twenty twenty one fellowship recipients and the groundbreaking, honestly mind blowing work they're doing, highlighting just how diverse, dynamic, and deeply impactful pathways in science can be. If I'm honest, I've emerged kind of wanting to move into science myself and wish there had been programs like this when I was younger and at that early stage of forming.
My idea of what careers actually existed.
Wonderfully, Lorel's work also includes a Girls in Science program in partnership with UNSW and Melbourne University, where the Fellows that you will hear from today are connected with girls in schools to empower young women to forge careers in STEM and inspire them to be part of a much needed cultural change in the industry. Unfortunately, the in person
Girls in Science events were unable to go ahead. There were two last year and they were hoping to redo them this year, but fortunately this miniseries has taken their place. So it's not just schoolgirls whose minds can be opened by these five fascinating women and the way they're changing the world. Even if you don't aspire to a career in STEM. I was captivated by these amazing humans and their stories, and I hope that you all are too so.
As I mentioned, there are five fellows across Australia and New Zealand, all doing different but amazing work that we are so lucky to have the chance to dive into. I could have talked to each of them four hours. As you all know, I am such a sucker for a niche community, but so that we could hear from all of them, we've done five mini interviews instead that will be spread over the next two installments of Yeas
of Our Lives. In this episode, you'll be meeting two women working in the area of climate change, but from completely different angles. Doctor Mardoch Shaibani is an Iranian battery engineer working on cleaner alternatives to lithium batteries, and doctor Kirsty Nash is a marine biologist looking at the relationship between changing nutrient production from fisheries and coral reefs on the one hand, and micronutrient deficiencies in humans on the other.
Next week, our three scientists focus more on medical breakthroughs across epilepsy, neuroscience, cardiovascular health, and anxiety. First up, we have doctor Mardoch Shay Barney, who, as I mentioned, is concerned with renewable energy sources and the battery supply chain.
I'd never really thought about there being battery engineers in the world, but of course there has to be, and doctor Shay Barney has been an inventor in four filed patents, working not only on creating new greener batteries, which I just found so fascinating to hear about, but also in the policy area of bringing lithium battery technology manufacturing locally, where Australia happens to be the only nation worldwide who has access to all the raw materials necessary for that production,
and somehow we still aren't actually doing that. Mardoch was born in Iran, attending Shiraz University for a Bachelor of Engineering, then completing a Masters in Material Science and Engineering at the coveted University of Tehran. Among the many things I learned was that women are actively encouraged to pursue science in Iran. So while many of us have heard of Iran only through stories of warfare or hardship, it seems they far outdo us in gender inequality in the sciences.
I'll let her tell you the rest herself, but I hope you find her as fascinating as I do. Doctor Shai Varney, welcome.
To the show.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
It is so lovely to meet you.
You are a fellow Monash girl, so I was already in love with you before I even started reading about the wonderful things you've gone on to do since then, So thank you so much for your time.
Oh that's so cn. Yeah, I'm quite happy to be here asabe.
So, I mean, you are just doing incredible work in renewable energy, which is an area I think all of us have started to pay a lot more attention to in recent years and in the recent decade. And something that I always say on this show talking about people's pathways and starting businesses or starting new pathways in life is, oh, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You know, you don't have to all invent new things. You just have to do it differently. Whereas you over here are literally
inventing new things all the time. So that's absolutely fascinating. I'm honored and humbled to be in your presence. You're a research fellow in mechanical and Aerospace engineering. I mean, I don't even know where to start. I don't think I even have the language to have this conversation.
You've been kind, I'm not nervous.
So just to sort of kick us off, I'd love to go through, you know, the journey of how you got here and any messages that you have for other women who are aspiring towards a career in science or engineering. Or you know, any of the stem you know kind of career pathways. But I'd love you to give us a lay person's explanation of what you're actually working on at the moment and some of the patents you've got out.
I know you've you know, you've developed the world's most efficient lithiumself about tree, like doing all these incredible things, but I didn't understand a lot of it. So just to kind of give us a lay of the land, can you tell us what your job is and the impact of kind of the work that you're doing on the world.
Sure. Yeah. So I'm a battery engineer, and I work towards making rechargeable batteries to assort the energy of renewables son and bend, and also to electrifi our transportation, electric cars, electric process. Now, my focus is not only on making more powerful, longer lasting batteries, but also to make greener, more sustainable, and more affordable batteries as well, batteries basically to charge of our efforts towards fighting climate change. So yeah, that's basically what I do.
Yeah, oh my gosh, that is so cool.
And I've also been reading that it's not just about the actual development of using Like I was reading about your favorite ingredients, I think it's in your Twitter bio. My favorite ingredients minor like avocado, chocolate, your the lithium, sulfur, silicon carbon.
It's so cool, good that you find it cool.
It's nerdy and cool. I think that's the best thing about it. Nerdy is cool these days. I know that a lot of your kind of policy work is also not just around developing new batteries, but also bringing that manufacturing locally, because there's a bit of a monopoly globally
on in the sector of creating renewable energy technology. So can you talk to us a little bit about that as well, like what the landscape looks like, the countries that are currently producing for the marketplace, and what you're kind of trying to achieve back home.
Sure, yeah, well I'm glad you brought that up. So I guess you may find it very interesting that Australia is the only country in the world that has access to all the ten minerals that are used to make littiar wine batteries they want, and only country, so we're truly blessed with them. But on the downside, I'm afraid I have to say that we don't make citti wine batteries in Australia, so as a Prime Minister are Iceleyan also sadly put it the other day, we are very
good at digging and shipping. So that's basically what we do here. We mind for the battery minerals and we don't even process them. We sell them kind of as it is to other countries to basically profit. Process the battery materials, make the sales, make the batteries and then sell it back to us, of course with a profit.
So that's why in addition to making batteries as of a few years ago, I've also started to advocate for making the batteries here in Australia in our land on shore because I know that if Australians want to drive more electric cars, and we don't really drive electric cars in Australia, if they want to install batteries for their solar panels to save on their electricity bills, we need
to make the batteries here in Australia. So yeah, that's why I have made that an additional focus of Carrier to advocate for an independent local battery supply chain for Australia.
Oh my gosh.
I mean even the fact that there are so many of us walking around not even knowing that the landscape is like that. I've already learned so much just in the first five minutes of the conversation. It's crazy that we actually, you know, I imagine that sometimes the barrier to manufacturing is not actually having access to the ingredients, but the fact that.
We're the only place that does. That's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, that's actually very true. So I guess with all the activities that now is happening around the climate change, you know that the United Nations Climate Change Conference is pretty close, is probably in three days time now.
Oh wow.
I find it quite heartened and quite encouraging that probably for the first time, our government has finally admitted that it's pretty critical to attend these sort of conferences and commit to what the world has started to commit to basic cut the emissions. They also unveiled their plan to reach net zero in twenty fifty yesterday actually, and I guess that puts a nicest smile on many of our faces.
Yeah, yes, And how lucky is the industry, and I mean the country as a whole to have advocates like you who are actually pushing this cause forward. Well the rest of us are. You're having no idea that it's actually going on. But I'm so excited to be learning from you here today. What about your R and D experience in battery proto typing? Because I think a lot of us probably have heard the word lithium battery. We kind of understand moving towards electricity versus other kinds of fuels.
But you know you've actually invented four filed patents. Can you talk to us a little bit about what a lithium battery is, what it's replacing. I read something in your research about a spoonful of sugar or something.
Yeah, so I guess I'll answer your question. We're giving you a quick bagger about the type of battery, the particular type of battery that I work on, which is called lithium sulfur battery. Because this technology is quite different from the commonly used lithium ion batteries that we rely on heavily on our everyday devices, So litium ion batteries,
it's a very mineral intensive battery. We use a lot of basically heavy metals in making these batteries such as nikkel and cobalt, which are of course excellent for storing and delivering energy, but there are downsides towards using these materials which are as of the past few years, the climate scientists, the kilimeate engineers have started to unveil these outsides at the so called dirty secrets behind litium ion batteries because there is a lot of environmental concerns and
also humanitarian concerns around mining for these materials. For example, most of us probably we think that by driving an electric vehicle an electrical we are saving the planet, we're contributing it. But it turds that the production of lithium ion batteries, it's accompanied with emitting a lot of carbon dioxide in the environment. So the batteries are not as killing as we think they are, which means that driving an ivy is not as positive as we think it is.
That's why I'm working on lithium software battery. So it promises to be a much greener battery because it does not rely on any sort of heavy metals, no nikiel, no cobalt, anything at all. It relies on sulfur, which is pretty cheap, pretty abandoned element, and geographically you could find it pretty much on all the right prices in
the world. The places that are basically there are stable countries, Whereas, for example, when it comes to cobalt, which is a key ingredient in making lithium ion batteries, almost seventy percent of the cobalt deposits are found in the Republic of Congo, which is not the sort of country that you want to rely on, and it's basically tens of thousands of children mining digging for cobalt in very harsh, very unfair conditions. So yeah, that's why I have my focus on a
Patrick chemistry, which promises to be greener the for battery. Yeah.
Oh my gosh, mother, I've got goosebumps just thinking about the impact that your work is going to have on the entire universe.
This is just absolutely mind blowing.
But I think one of the things that's really interesting and I'd love to dive into now, is that most little girls don't wake up at five or six and go I want to work on batteries in the energy sector, Like, it's not usually the thing that you wake up as a young child. You know, we're often like I want to be a ballerina, or I want to be an actress or a singer. So one of the things we're very fascinated by here at this show at Eza is your part pathway, or we call it your path ya.
So how you actually got into where you are today? And I think it's still perceived that for women in STEM it's a tougher industry to get into.
There are a lot of barriers.
That we face along the way, and also even outside of STEM, I think there is no linear pathway to anything these days. Everyone takes twists and turns, and it's just about trusting that you will eventually end up where you're supposed to, even if you know there are lots of diversions along the way. So can you take us back to, you know, maybe when you were at school or back at you know, Tehran University, like before you even knew that you were coming to Australia, Like how
did you actually forge your way into engineering? And how has that pathway been for you?
Sure? Yeah, So, well, I come from a different background, different country. I was born in Iran, as you said, and engineering is actually a very well defined profession for both men and women in my whole country.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, So I guess at high school I was good at math and physics. And then I also found myself surrounded by successful engineers in my family, in the society, men and women. And I guess back then I had no difficulty picturing my future self in these engineers, again, men and women. It was clear as a day to me that if I wanted to design something, make something, change something for the better, to have an impact on my daily life, my family's daily life, I should become
an engineer. But I guess when I came to Australia, I noted that the situation in Australia is a bit different and I'm afraid a bit concerning. So, for example, in Australia, the proportion of women across STDM qualified industries, it's currently around twenty eight percent, which is, i'm afraid, as good as the worst performing European country. In fact, we are wow, we are to day is below the average of where Europe was twenty years ago.
Oh yeah, I no idea.
Yeah, when when you compare these statistics like twenty percent with countries such as Denmark or Norway, the proportion of women in engineering in these countries is actually above fifty percent. Wow. Yeah. So, and then the most worrying statistics for me is amongst the STM field is engineering. Where as far as I'm concerned, this number, this statistics is as low as twelve percent in Australia. No again, you know where I come from.
It's fifty percent. Fifty percent of the engineers or women. Wow. So yeah, I guess something to worry about. Yeah yeah, I mean we live in an engineering world, and if we fail to encourage our girls to take up mathematics and physics in high school and pursue careers in engineering, it's like we are sending i'd say, care team of five six perla years to the World Cup rather than eleven. It will lose.
Oh my gosh.
That's such a good analogy and it makes so much
sense when you put it that way. But it's also really interesting because I think a lot of Australians consider that we're very progressive and consider that that applies in lots of areas, but would be very surprised by those statistics and to hear that you actually didn't encounter many barriers as a woman in science and technology until you arrived in Australia is actually quite a confronting revelation and something that definitely inspires me to want to change that
for my future daughter and my future nieces or you know, the next generation of tomorrow. But I think it's something something else that you said about the fact that you were surrounded by examples that you could then use to envision your own future. That's why you are so inspiring today because all you need is to see yourself represented in around you. And I think that's the same with not just Korea, but sexuality, identity, you know, all kinds
of things. We just need to feel represented or feel like there's a version of us out there. So you're already a wonderful role model for younger women who are trying to get into science since coming here. What are some of the barriers that you found as a woman in your career and what would you give as advice to any young women entering the industry in Australia to sort of helping change that statistic.
Well, honestly, Sarah, as a woman, I haven't faced math challenges, but it's as an engineer how I faced the challenges. Because my personal viewpoint is that there is lack of awareness, lack of appreciation in Australian amongst Australian families for engineering for engineering jobs. I was reading an article in ABC about this high school year who was pretty good at math and physics at high school and she said that back then and she had no idea how it will
be good for her for her future career. Parents didn't go to university, no one in the family goes to university. And then apparently she didn't learn much about engineering jobs their prospects at high school. So I would assume that if that girl had a bit of more knowledge about the perspectives of the engineering jobs, maybe some female engineers as their role models to look at, she would have probably taken a different pathway. She could have been a
successful climate engineer saving lives now. So is the lack of appreciation for engineering jobs is in Australia That makes me a bit concerned. Yeah, both amongst I would say, boys and girls.
Yeah, And I think there's also a very close association made between engineering and construction. So women automatically think, oh, I'd be out on a building side, or I'd be dealing with big machinery, and it's I mean, that's definitely part of engineering. But the engineers I've spoken to, even through this program or just read in articles, even when I was doing my research into you and then reading about some of your colleagues, like I was surprised at how non large machinery.
Based your work is.
What are some of the other unexpected parts of your job that might surprise someone who didn't understand the industry, Like you're doing very specific work on chemical compounds, you know, and I don't think people understand that that's also a possibility. You don't have to be out on building sites to be an engineer.
Yeah, I guess. Yeah, thanks for pointing data. I think it's very subtle what you pointed out. I'd say that it would be fantastic if our high schools, with the help of our successful female engineers, even male engineers, they tried to create more awareness about the simple definition of different engineering discipline Like what does a mechanical engineer do, What does a chemical engineer do? What does like a material engineer, a battery engineers such as myself does. Yeah,
it's definitely not all about construction. It's like one out of the many disciplines.
I didn't even know that battery engineers exist, although of course when you think about it, of course they do. But I think putting a name on it also really helps. And I mean that's why I'm so so inspired by Lorel's commitment to not only the fellowships that will allow researchers and incredible inventors like yourself to continue your work, but also then to provide access to that to girls in science and bringing the knowledge of what you do
into schools, because I think you're right. I think it's at school age that you need exposure to these ideas because you can't know you want to be a battery engineer until you've heard it from one, or until you've met one, and you know that they exist, and you have a job and you love what you do, and to kind of understand all aspects of that is really exciting. So how has it felt for you to be part of the fellowship? What will it allow you to do?
And do you get excited to be able to sort of spread the message to younger girls in science?
Yeah? I agree with you, Sarah. I think that Lauria is doing is pretty awesome. When I first heard about the program out of curiosity, I could get to see whether there are other programs like this in Australia, and I'm afraid there aren't many of them. So what Loreal is doing is pretty awesome. And I looked at sort of activities that are designed for their fellows and this one talking to their high school girls about yeah, our careers,
our patries, our golds and so on. That was the most exciting part of that activity, which yeah, yeah, I was so excited to know about this.
Yeah, I think it's so great because I remember also being in high school and I think part of the reason I ended up choosing law was because I only really knew about four jobs, you know, really thought that there was sort of law, medicine, teaching, become an athlete, which was I was obviously not going to do, you know, I just didn't The world seems so narrow until someone
else helps you start to open it up. So and I think also, I mean, this is just totally off topic, but I think also our perceptions in everything can be quite narrow until we meet people from different cultures. And
that's why I love travel so much. And again I'm so impressed by those statistics coming from Iran, which is a country I think again, Australians don't know a lot about Iran, and I think it's you know, we have a very specific exposure to Iran through the news or through the media, and the fact that then to hear that it's a more progressive country in gender equality and science,
then Australia is quite shocking. So are there any unexpected parts about Iran that might surprise us just culturally to know? Obviously you haven't been able to go back in the past two years, but do you go back and visit, do you miss it?
Yeah, yeah, it's been quite a few years then yeah, yeah, Well, I guess in Iran engineering is some sort of fair rescue past way for women to show that they could also be as good as men and even better. And honestly, I mean my personal viewpoint is that there are a number of engineering disciplines, at least if not many, that women could actually add perform in these sort of disciplines.
I mean, as girls, women are always trying to pass through the narrowest gates and that has short passed us something somethingsdom So, yeah, strengths that maybe our male counterparts don't have that. And yet I mean there are disciplines such as, for example, in the automotive industry, you have to be extremely organized, and yeah, I assume women could shine in that industry as opposed to probably what the common belief is that it's like masculine discipline. It suits
the boys the man. But yeah, we have certain qualifications that probably makes us outperforming certain disciplines of engineering.
Yeah, yeah, the girls. Yeah.
Do you miss home or is Australia home?
Like?
It's interesting.
We've had one of the other fellows who I haven't interviewed everyone yet, but Jauen was saying that Australia has become home. I mean she left China not that long ago, but her transition to thinking of this as home happened really quickly, whereas for some people that.
Take, you know, a lot longer.
How do you feel, well, I definitely miss home, but I definitely consider Australia as home as well. And I'd say that Australia is the sort of country that there is nothing that you cannot like about this country. It's just the people are so nice. I've traveled a lot because of my career, different conferences here and there, and I mean Australia and people you just see them in the street and everyone has a smile on their face. I mean, yeah, I remember our first year or two
in Australia. My husband keep telling me that this country is not real.
Really, that's so cute, that's so lovely. Oh my gosh. Oh.
Is there a motivational quote that you think that guided you through your journey?
Motivational quote that's a difficult one.
Yeah.
I love quote, so I just use them for every situation, but sometimes people like I don't really know. I don't really have quotes. But if you do, is there one that helped you?
Well, I guess I could think of something that my husband actually once told me. So, we were friends when I was doing my bachelor and then I was trying to get into the best master's program in the country, which was in Tehran University, and my husband was a graduate of that university. And then he told me to study hard so that you could in a university that you could be able to breath freedom and power. So yeah, and I guess, yeah, studying engineering in the best university
of the country. Yeah, I definitely felt that. I felt power, I felt freedom, that I could make things happen, I could change things for the better.
Which you absolutely are.
Again, I've I had goosebumps this whole entire conversation. That is so beautiful. What an amazing, amazing quote that obviously has guided you to be changing the world now and having such incredible power. And I'm sure many young women listening will be feeling very empowered to seize their yay on their way into a career in science and engineering.
And lastly, do you have a we call them recommendations of a movie or a book, or a TV show or something that just made you happy that you joy doesn't have to be about engineering either, just anything in life that's made you really happy.
Could it be about engineering?
Absolutely?
Could?
I love how everything? I'm like, what do you miss about Iran? Tell us what I've heard? It's a beautiful country.
Engineering in Iran. It's just like you live and breath. It's beautiful.
Yeah, I guess, yeah, Well, I hope I don't sound a bit outdated, but I'd say that some of my favorite books are those of Jules Verne, so yeah, in nineteenth century French author. I guess everyone at least my generation knows him quite a fit. He's famous for his revolutionary science fiction novels like to Travel from the Air to the Moon, or five Weeks in the Balloon and so on. So I'm not a big fan of science
fiction books and movies myself. But what I like about Jewelerne's books is that he always argued that he's not writing about science and technology, but he's writing about how he may achieve his dreams by means of technological advances. I love this quote from him. He once said that I wrote Five Weeks in a Balloon not as a story about ballooning, but as a story about Africa. I always was greatly interested in geography, history, and travel, and
I wanted to give a romantic description of Africa. And there was no means of taking the travelers of my history to Africa otherwise than in a balloon. And that's why I invented the idea of a balloon in my history. So I that's what I love about engineering or stem fields in general. They gave you the chance to not only dream your dream, but also pursue your dream and maybe leave your dream, whether it is to electrify the world or to develop a vaccine to save lives.
So yeah, oh my gosh, I know I've used these words over and over again, but you are so inspired and I have goosebunce again. Oh my god, what a beautiful way to finish, Mada.
Thank you so much for joining us.
I just am so inspired and cannot wait to continue to follow your career in all the wonderful ways that you're making our world a better place.
Thank you, sir, that's so kind. Thanks for having me.
I had this after every single guest, but I just want to spend more time around doctor Jay Barney and absorb some of her strength and intellect and class. And what an amazing woman and such a fascinating area of expertise. I can't imagine how many people listening have never even thought about the job title a battery engineer. And how can any young girl aspuy into a career she's never
even known to exist before. Our next guest is equally as impressive, addressing environmental changes from a different angle, being one of millions of us who wanted to be marine biologists when we were younger to play with dolphins all day, but then one of the few who actually went on to become one. Doctor Kirsty Nash looks at how fishing might maximize social and health outcomes through understanding the variation in nutrition content among different piece of fish and how
environmental change will affect those food webs. I had no idea that vitamin A deficiency is responsible for over six hundred thousand premature deaths each year globally and up to five hundred thousand cases of preventable blindness in children. Nor did I ever consider the link between a change in climate nutrient content in our food and therefore whether our nutrient needs can be met by the planet, even though
it's so obvious. Doctor Kirsty also shares some great insights on the barriers to women in science when it comes to motherhood, even creating her own online platform for parents in academia anyone else getting a total motivational kick up the butt from these women Introducing doctor Kirsty Nash. Kirsty, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so so excited to get into everything that you're doing to impact the world for the better.
It's one of those areas that, once I started reading into it, I just thought, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. But how do none of us have any idea about it.
Yeah.
I think that's the thing about science is a lot of it goes on behind closed doors and you don't necessarily know, you know, all the interesting things that are being learned about.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And even just in doing this series, I've sort of got so much motivation and fascination that I kind of wish I'd become a scientist. I'm like, this, is it too late for me to go and dive into stem myself, which is exactly a purpose of this show.
I guess I don't think it's ever too late.
And I think that's the great thing about you know, living in this time, you can change career. You know, it's never too late to decide that this is your dream now and you want to try something new.
Oh that's so true And something I talk about so much on the show, the nonlinear nature of people's pathways to where they end up. I think we have such a narrow conception of careers when we're younger, and there's so much pressure to figure that out straight out of school. But nobody's journey happens in a really straight.
Line kind of way.
So I definitely want to chat through your own pathway into science. And I'm sure, all that twis in terms that took you to get there. But to begin with, can you give us a lay person's explanation of what you're working on? Now, it's impact for the world, so we can get a lay of the land. Micronutrient deficiencies is a huge health concern and something maybe some of us are considered on an individual level in terms of our day to day diet, but probably not on a
broader global scale. So tell us what you're doing with seafood and fishing and how it relates to climate change.
Yeah, so that's when my research sits between climate change, human nutrition, and coral reef fisheries. And so basically the soft of scale of the problem is that a lack of essential micronutrients, so that's things like calcium, zinc, vitamin a is a massive global problem. So it affects about two point five billion people worldwide. Yeah, so it's a massive, yeah, massive problem, massive impact, and the impact of those deficiencies
is significant. So just if we take vitamina as an example, viamin a deficiencies have been linked to about five hundred thousand cases of preventable child blindness each year. Oh my gosh, yeah. So you think, oh, well, I don't have enough of these, and you go and take a vitamin tablet and you think, oh that's you know, I've solved problem. But actually the scale of it is really significant, and seafood is an important part of the diet of about a billion people worldwide.
Many of those people live in developing countries, including those boarded by coral reefs. And the great thing is that fish, including those caught in coray fisheries, are a great source of a lot of these essential micronutrients, so things like calcium and se confitiment a. The problem is we don't currently know how environmental change will impact on this supply of nutrients we get from fish and from coray fisheries.
So that's where my research comes in. Is we're looking at what nutrients were getting from cray fisheries today and how that might change in the future with a changing climate. And the reason that's important is that if we can find this out, it really has the potential to IMpower communities and governments to manage their fisheries and maximum the benefits they're getting from these resources, both today but also as the climate changes into the future.
Oh my gosh, it makes me so excited to hear about career paths that you just don't in your normal day to day life. You kind of take for granted so many things like access to nutrients in food. The nutrient profiles are different foods. You can google the profiles of what you're eating, but no one really Like when I think of climate change, I don't think straight away about our global human deficiencies in certain vitamins.
I just wouldn't even connect that.
So the fact that there's a whole career in figuring that out and forecasting that into the future to kind of solve those problems, I mean, we don't even know that you're the hero we all need, which is absolutely amazing to hear about today.
What I find excitingly about this research is because it's so indisciplinary. You know, it's not me just sitting in a room on my own. It's really bringing together people who work in human nutrition, people who work in climate change.
My background is coryphocology, so I spend a lot of time following fish around underwater and understanding how fish interact with their environ and so to do this side project, you know, you've really got to bring together a whole range of different people who have all sorts of different expertise and lean on that expertise to be able to answer this sort of question.
Yeah, and I think that's the thing a lot of people don't understand and why it's so exciting to get girls in schools that's sort of you know, understanding or visualizing their futures, to get visibility of these kind of intersections between disciplines, because again, I think we silo like a science career is in a lab with test tubes, and you know, if you were doing fish, you'd be just looking at only fish that you couldn't merge climate
change and coral. You know, it's so exciting to be able to expose people to the different ways you can start off in one thing and end up touching lots of different industries and areas without even having planned that. And on top of everything you're already doing, I read that there's another project you're working on in a different area, a free resource hub called academic Life. It's an online platform empowering parents in academia aunt balance work with caring responsibilities.
So lots of balls in the air tell us about that.
So the online platform is sort So I moved down to Tasmania to start my current job, and then I got pregnant and I had a baby, and you know, we were away from friends and family, and my family's in the UK, my husband's family is in the US. We didn't know a lot of people here and had quite a few struggles after I'd had my baby and I was taking time off, and then I got diagnosed
with post natal depression. And I was so lucky with the help that I got from people and colleagues here and from the local health services, and then talking to people working at other universities around the world, I realized that actually a lot of people don't get that help. You know, our job, we move a lot for our job, and so people tend to be away from their support networks and they don't necessarily have access to people who
can help them through some of these challenging times. And I found a lot of resources online that were really helpful to me, and I thought, well, you know, as a parent, you don't have a lot of time to find these sorts of things, and maybe I could build a resource that was online and free that people could then access a lot of this help even if they don't have it in their local area, you know, they could find their village online and they could find other
people who are going through similar things and get that advice and get that support. And so this platform Academic Life is all about that. It's about finding your online village.
Oh my gosh, that's so wonderful.
We call it finding your neighborhood at CCA, like finding your tribe of people who really can you, empower you and support you through different experiences.
And I think it's.
Really wonderful that it's targeted specifically at academia balancing work and caring responsibilities because it's such a specific area that has its own needs and you've got different travel requirements, Like it's so important to be around people who understand the things you're going through. And we have spoken in a couple of these episodes about the fact that for women in science that can be one of the really
difficult things. That the research world is moving at such a fast pace that even stopping to have children at all is kind of a challenge. So to have a community of people who understand those niche experiences, can imagine that the support would just be immeasurably valuable.
So can we go.
Back to the beginning to kind of trace how you originally became interested in that, and also go through the process of what spurred the move to Tazzi and how you ended up here, and just trace through all the different ways that your life has led you to where you are today, particularly how you discovered that the job you're in now was actually possible.
So I guess when I was eleven, I went to the ECOT Center in the US and we saw this guy diving in a tank and I said to my parents that's what I want to do in my life. And my mum was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, whatever, you know, eleven year old telling you this. And then we went home and I found this book on my parents' bookshelf which was called Under the Red Sea, and it's primarily about this guy, Hans Hass and all the diving he did in the nineteen fifties in the Red Sea.
But in the book there's stuff about his wife, who had been his secretary and then became his wife and she became one of his team of underwater photographers. But also because he had some TV shows fronting the show and I was like, oh, so you know, there are women out there doing this, and I just found this lady so inspiring and I was like, oh, this is maybe not just a pipe dream of an eleven year old,
this is something that I could do. And I kind of held onto that, and at school people were like, are you sure this is what you want to do? You know, you surely do you want to really want to specialize so early? And I was like, yeah, I'm you know, I'm determined for this. I'm not going to give up on this. And so I went to university and did oceanography, and then I came to Australia, to Townsville and did a master's in tropical marine ecology. And that's when I sort of my academic career went off
on a bit of a tangent. So I then spent about seven years working on marine conservation projects, teaching people how to do underwater surveys. And then I worked on a school ship in the Caribbean, teaching first year undergrads from the US how to dive and intro to marine biology and intro to oceanography. And I think, you know, in my mind at that stage, that's what I was going to do. I was going to stay very much
in the field. I was going to teach diving. I was going to do these sort of conservation project type things. And then I had to come back to Australia to keep my residency. So I came back and when I arrived back in Townsville, it some friends. Randomly someone was advertising for a research system for six months and I
was like, I could apply for that. When I went for the interview, the guy interviewing me, I could see him thinking, all this girl has done is wafted around the world in the tropics for the last six or seven years.
It's still long vacation.
Yeah, can she really do this? And anyway, I got the job, but I think he was pretty uncertain about this. And I remember my first meeting with him. We sat down, he said this is what I wanted to do, and then he left the office and I spent the next hour looking on Wikipedia all the things that he just asked me to do, because I had no idea what he died he just told me to do. I was like,
way out of my league. Then, I think this is the thing that I find about answer is that I think at school you're taught it's all about knowledge but I think I've learned that actually science is all about experimenting and using your initiative and knowing how to look things up and knowing you to ask for help. And so I stayed in that job for six months and then it got extended for another year, and then he said,
do you want to do a PhD? And then he employed me as a post doc and then he moved back to England and I was like, oh, I'm going to fend for myself now, and this great job came up in Tazzy and so we moved down here. So none of it has been really planned other than just sort of following my passion, I think, and in following
my passion, I've ended up here. But it's I guess, just grabbing opportunities as they came up, rather than feeling like, you know, when I left school, I needed to know where I was going to go and that I was going to be an academic and a researcher. And this is you know, I had it all sorted in my head because I didn't do my PhD until I was you know, thirty two thirty three, and I'd done all these other things beforehand.
Oh my gosh, if I could give that sound to my younger self when I was batching in school, like.
It would have changed my whole holiday life.
I think it's so important for younger people to hear that you know these pathways they're not planned with a tenue plan in advance, and they do often like there's so many sliding doors moments where it's just that you happen to see something in a newspaper and you just put your name down, or you just meet someone who exposes you to a different world.
And I think one of the things.
That I loved about what you said about that science isn't necessarily about knowledge. I think you think it's all about having the answers. But I've noticed that scientists are all just really good at asking the right questions. They
don't always know the answer straight away. But if you've ever found yourself just asking life's great questions and filling gaps, even with you know, the academic life platform, it was you finding a gap and asking the right question about a need, whether or not you knew that you could actually fill that gap yourself, and something else that came up. And I think I misquote this every single time I
refer to it. But one of the things were women in general, but I imagine in science and STEM particularly because there are fewer women in you know, emerging into these careers. I hope that's changing, but is that you know, often we will There's a study on women and men applying for promotions in a corporate context, and men would apply when they had sixty percent of the criteria, knowing
logically they could figure out the forty percent. And I love that you took that approach and just applied for the job and then google the rest because you've obviously been able to figure it out. But women will so often wait until they have one hundred to one hundred and twenty percent of the criteria. So even if there weren't any kind of gender inequalities institution equalities aside, we
miss out on the opportunities because of timing. So I love that you just figured I can figure this out as I go, because you always can.
And I think actually one of the things that I found funny is when I started my PhD. About a week after I started my PhD, and I was like, Oh, this is so much to learn and I don't know anything, and someone sent me this article that was in a published in a scientific journal called the Importance of Stupidity in Scientific Research. I mean, this article is all about out If you know the answers about what you're researching,
then you're doing something that someone's already done. If you feel stupid and a bit lost and you're uncertain, then actually that's the sweet spot. That's where you want to be, because that's when you're asking a question that is new and exciting and people don't know the answer to and could actually make a difference. And so if you don't feel stupid some of the time, then you're not doing it right.
I love that. That's such a good one.
So in your journey, did you find that you encountered any particular challenges as a woman forging a career in this industry, because I know they are industries where I think women are still a bit in the minority. A lot of us, you know, went through school without much exposure to females and scientific careers in things like engineering. We have this idea of equating to working into construction, you know. But this is you know, showing that there
are so many women who have forged successful careers. So what are some of the barriers that you have faced, and the advice that you have for any women who are aspiring to a career in science.
I think a lot of it is, as you say, not seeing people in those roles. I think that can be very confronting, where you see something you want to you know, you want to do something, but you're like, is this possible because I can't see someone else who is like me in that role, And so it's the uncertainty about am I going to be right for this, or am I going to be enough, or am I
going to fit in or whatever. And I think something that I have found really helpful is having great female mentors along the way, people who are not necessarily in my field, but have worked in similar environments. So you know, you may want to be an engineer. You don't need to find an engineer mentor, but maybe you find someone who works in another SCIENTI field who is a female, and they're higher up and they have seen some of the challenges and the experiences and they can help guide you.
Because I think that's such a crucial thing is whoever we are, we're always going to run into challenges and having that person to guide you is really important. And I think often we can be afraid to ask people to be a mentor, but actually anyone you ask will be flattered if you ask them to be a mentor. And so I think sometimes if you see someone you think, oh, I'm inspired by them, that actually just go and ask them, you know, can I come and chat to you every
now and again or whatever. So I'd say that's one thing. And then definitely you see that even when women come into science, often we lose women as you go higher up the hierarchy, and there's a lot fewer women as you go, you know, to the top of the hierarchy within science. And I think that has a lot to do with the challenges of the short term contracts and if you're going to have a family, and the uncertainty and science often requires travel and things like that, so
that's definitely can be a challenge. I think COVID has shown up a lot of those challenges in very stark terms, because you have a lot of women working at home and to do a lot of the caring responsibilities and trying to have their career, and you know, that has been really hard. But then at the same time, a lot of this moved to online work has also been very good because if, for example, you've just had a baby, you may not want to travel to that international conference,
but you feel like it's important to your career. But if that international conference is now online, you can actually
access that. And so I think this move to online work and flexibility is something that I hope we can stick to in the future because I think that challenging time when you're trying to balance work and family responsibilities, having some of these online opportunities can be you know, really really beneficial and ensure that as a woman you're not falling behind and you're staying competitive and you're getting access to all those great opportunities that you would do
if you were a single man running around the world.
Yeah.
I think the kind of general move more heavily towards the digital landscape has also been really exciting for that kind of visibility of women in science because I mean, even through this program, being able to push it out digitally and we've recorded not in the same state, we've had international recordings as well, and it's so exciting to be able to share just girls in school, so you know, you might not otherwise have been able to go and speak to show them that these are the career paths,
to have that visibility earlier in their pathway so that they know it is actually possible.
It's just such a privilege to be.
Part of this and so exciting to think of the impact this could have on a lot of young girls' choices as they go forward into the world. What has been part of Lorel's fellowship enabled you to do in your research? Because there's kind of two aspects to this. There's really making your stories accessible to younger women or not even younger women, just anyone who's earlier on in their career in science. But also a grant that's allowed
you to push forward in your research. So what is it enabled for you that you might not have otherwise been able to do?
So some of it is, you know, just doing the research itself, but I would say that a big thing is there's not many grants out there that you can use to contribute to childcare and to be able to apply for a grant that is supporting your research, but also you know, if I go and do a field trip, will help me work out the childcare during that. I mean, particularly as an example, you know, because I don't have family here, you know, one set of families in the UK,
one set of families in the US. If I need to go into the field and you know, my husband's then on his own and he's trying to juggle childcare and all these other things, having been able to pay for that extra childcare is a massive, massive plus for me. And so I would say that that's a really great and unusual thing about this fellowship that you don't see in a lot of funding streams.
Yeah, actually you're not the first of the fellows who's mentioned that. That was quite striking. And actually, when it really comes down to what enables women to forge a head in their careers in science, childcare is a really big barrier. It's not just getting research grinds, because there are many of those. So I think it's I've been so impressed that Lorel that's a beauty company, has been investing so heavily in science because I mean, science is.
The ba of all their products.
So I think, again, there's all these connections to the world of science that we don't necessarily otherwise make. Has there been a motivational quote or a mantra that's really guided you through your journey or something that you would sort of share with your daughter, or if she go through.
Her own journey.
I would say. There's one specifically to do with science that I really love because I feel like it sums up so much of what I have found about science. And that's one from Maria Montessori. I think she's the lady who started the Montessori schools or that sort of philosophy, and she said, we especially need imagination in science. It's not all mathematics nor all logic, but in somewhat beauty
and poetry. And I just think that that sums up so much of or it corrects a lot of the misconception there is about science that you're sitting in school and you're taking exams, and you're so worried about that one particular grade, and you think that that is going to make or break your science career if that's what
you want to be. And actually there's so many other skills that we can draw on to have a successful science career, and having some imagination about how you solve problems and drawing in on those skills can be so beneficial. I mean, as an example, this is not necessarily to do with imagination, but one job I got which was as a college lecturer teaching these students how to introduction
to oceanographina and introduction to marine biology. And the reason I got that job above the other candidates was because I was also a diving instructor. Had nothing to do with my science background. It was because I had that extra skill that made me more useful to the company.
And I think, you know, whether you have experience with accounting or marketing or you know, social media, whatever it is, so many of those aspects touched on science, and so don't feel that just being good at maths is the essential skill.
Yeah, it's actually funny how many of the fellows have mentioned that you at the beginning of your career, you kind of perceived science is mutually exclusive with the arts or creativity or expression. But actually, in practice, if you don't have creativity or some kind of artistic flair, your research is kind of hindered by your inability to think outside of those boxes. So that's I mean, incredibly reassuring for anyone who feels like, oh, but would I lose
my creative side? Absolutely not, it seems.
And actually, if you speak to I think if you speak to a lot of scientists, so many scientists have some sort of artistic hobby, you know, whether they're into music or they you know, they play an instrument, they do some sort of art or you know, whatever it is. I always find it really interesting what people do, you know, outside science, their hobbies that help them keep that creative slant.
And I love that you mentioned that too, because it's I mean, in science, but also outside of science. Something that I think happens a lot is that we've become we silo ourselves so much into I am.
A scientist, or I am a lawyer, or I am or whatever, and.
We really drop extracurricular activities or things that are just for leisure or pleasure because they're not productive or because they don't contribute to our overall.
OK.
But something I have loved and that this whole show is based around, is the idea that the more sort of additional but unrelated things you have in your life, like you're diving the intersection of your passions and your profession, whatever random combination that is, you never know when it's
going to be useful. And one of our most popular episodes ever was Doctor Richard Harris, the twenty nineteen Australian of the year who's undernethotist, which is so medical and so unrelated to his passion which is technical cave diving, and then to sedate the boys to get them out of the cave, like he was the only person in the world with that really random combination of passions and skills.
So that always reminds me someone out there is looking for exactly what you have, no matter how weird it seems. So whatever your passion is, and never think that just because you're a scientist, you can't do completely unscience related things in your life as well.
And also that don't undersell the skills you have, even if they're not obviously directly relevant to know what you're looking at.
Yeah, totally.
Well, speaking of things that are outside of your science brain, do you have any what we call recommendations of a movie or a book or a TV show. I mean, it can be related to science, but I think also it's really important to be able to get distance and let your brain have a risk. Is there anything that's just made you really happy that you've just it's given you yay that you've watched or rich I think.
One of one of my favorite is a podcast called how to fail. I don't know if you listen to no and it's run by this lady Elizabeth Day, and she interviews people who have super successful careers and all sorts of different things, you know, celebrities or scientists or you know, whatever it is, but she asks them about three key failures they had along the way to where
they are today. And I love it because you hear, you know, you see these people, you think, are they are so successful, nothing's ever gotten wrong in their lives, and then you hear these ridiculous stories of you know, either stupid things they did or things that went wrong or tragedies, and you just you're like, oh, everyone has this stuff, and being successful doesn't mean that you haven't had failures along the way and things haven't gone horribly
wrong at some point. And I just so many of the stories in this podcast just made me laugh.
I love that so much.
I actually think failure is almost like a necessary ingredient of success, because those are the things. One of my good friends, Lisa Messenger, has this idea of failing forwards, like you can't actually grow or elevate yourself to the next level until you fail and stumble, because otherwise, how would you grow to the next thing unless you'd figured out what you weren't doing right. So it's a great opportunity to learn and advance. I think your tolerance for
failure is what tends to make people more successful. Yeah, yeah, Well, thank you so much for joining us. This was so fascinating. You're the first real life marine biologist I've ever spoken to. I feel like so many of us because we love dolphins. When we're younger, everyone wants to be a marine biologist,
but so few people actually become one. So it's been fascinating to read about the ways that you've used oceanogga and branch out in all these different areas and are continuing to change the world.
So thank you so much, Thanks very much, Sarah.
Okay, Well, I don't know how you could listen to these women and not be blown away, even if you have no interest in ever working in science. Their work and the way it could change the world or is changing the world for the better.
Is so incredibly interesting.
I'm thoroughly enjoying the nerd out right now and hope this series encourages and inspires some future leading scientists to push on with their yay in stem I'd love to hear what you guys think, or anything you've learned or AHA moments, or if any of you were considering a shift. It's always so great to know what the Yablewood thinks of anything new or a bit different like a mini series.
And if you have any specific questions you'd like me to pass on to either Mardoch or Kirsty, please just click me a DM or email and I can definitely make that happen. I'm so excited to bring you more next week with our three medical Science Champions thanks to the wonderful team at Loreal and There for Women in Science Fellowship, So please stay tuned and in the meantime, I hope you're seizing your yay