Happiness can't be felt by the other people around you who are envious. If you think that other people's envy is going to build you up, it's not because you can't touch that. Like who says you have to write a book every year, who says that you've got to say yes to this incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so much that your marriage suffers. That's my goal when I get those incredible moments to actually be able to feel them.
Welcome to the sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore, the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcham Milk Bark Cca is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring
the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Yahborhood, we are back with a guest episode for you, and I'm thrilled to have one of Australia's most known and loved voices on the show this week, the inimitable Jesse Stevens.
Many of you will probably recognize Jesse, or at least recognize her voice as one of the hosts of the chart topping podcast Mamma Mia Out Loud, among many other shows in the prolific Mamma Mea network of which Jesse is also an executive editor and which we, you may have noticed, are so excited to have joined recently in
a brand new chapter for Cca. While Jesse is now dominating the airwaves and has also authored two incredible books, you may not know that she actually began as a very junior Burger editorial assistant a decade ago at Mamma Maya and worked her way up the ranks to become one of the few people who can say that they've been in the one workplace for ten years, an example that you don't have to leave your job or leave your workplace to grow and find new Yea's and one
of the coolest parts of this story. Jesse is an executive editor at Mumma Mia alongside her twin sister, Claire Stevens, another of Australia's most known and loved voices that you will likely recognize. They both study different things in their undergraduate but then went on to complete a master's of research left academia, began as editorial assistants together at Mamma Maya, and they have worked their way up in different but parallel ways. And the two also have not just brothers,
twin brothers. That's two sets in one family. So it was fascinating to learn about such a unique and special facet to her path.
Yea.
Jesse is also just a little bit ahead of me as a working mum and such a great source of inspiration, having lent her wisdom on the Juggle on a chapter of The Juggle, the book by my dear friend and manager Genevieve Day, who you've heard from just a couple
of episodes ago in our Caesar Baby episode. Despite having many mutual friends and working in some of the same circles, I'd actually never chatted to Jesse before, but you would never know because she is such an incredible conversationalist, and I hope that you guys enjoy this one as much as I did. Jesse Stevens, Welcome to CZA.
Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.
I'm so excited that we made it through multiple reschedules to sit down and record today, being in similar chapters of juggling motherhood with work, and that you just completely understood the logistical challenges of recording. But I'm also excited because, of course, you were a voice that most of Australia already knows and loves. Executive editor and host at Mama Mia, which is a family CZA is so thrilled to have recently joined. So absolutely delighted to have you today.
It's the relief of having when you have been unreliable in terms of I have to reschedule because babysitting issue, work, whatever, the relief of having someone else cancel the next one is just so good. All my guilt evaporates and I'm like, yes, I'm not the only one who stuffed up this scheduling, so I quite like that. I feel like you genuinely didn't judge me.
Oh, only because I knew I would also reschedule just as many time. So I am very proud of us for making it today.
Me too. It's a miracle.
Well for the very few people who don't already know, you are the executive editor at Mama Mia, hosting Mama Mia out Loud, canceled, and most recently the Baby Bubble, as well as having hosted Hello Bump book Club and Once upon a Time, much to my pleasure, True Crime Conversations.
Yes, I did that for the first probably two years I launched it, and I love true crime. I still love true crime. But after doing it for a few years, you know, I did some fascinating interviews and I learned so much, but I felt like I was overstretched, and that when there's a project, or when there's a thing that you really care about, like that podcast and giving the audience quality, then the kindest thing I could do
for them was to hand it over. And so I've handed it over and to watch it just grow under hosts that could give it more than I could has been such a joy. But like I learned so much doing that project.
Oh my gosh, I'm so obsessed with true crime, and I'd love that you've been able to dip your toe in so many different things and podcast across many different
topics within the network during your time. But my favorite thing really is that people walk into your life in the chapter you're in now, and it's so easy to assume that, you know, it's such a prestigious role as executive editor, it's easy to assume that it was an overnight success, that it happened, you know, in a really smooth, straightforward way, that you always knew you wanted to end up in the media, and it so rarely actually happens
that way. We get to hear you speak about so many things that are really topical, but raally get to hear about, you know, your childhood, or what your earliest hopes and dreams were that you ended up studying degrees that don't necessarily make sense for a career later on in the media. So let's go back to your childhood, those early days, your first part time job, you know,
fourteen and nine months, your school life. I read an article you wrote recently about how people's U twelve results don't necessarily correlate to later on, but you put other peoples in and not your own. I researched and found out. It was a ninety eight point five, so I obviously started out very academically strong. So yeah, tell us about childhood.
It's funny that you say fourteen and nine months, because I think there are probably two types of teenagers, and I was the fourteen and nine months teenager. Definitely wanted a job, definitely wanted some independence so that I could buy my own clothes from souprey, and I worked at a video shop and Boost Juice was the big was a big job, and I was never very good at any of them because my I think I'm hard working, but I think I'm a bit vague. And I remember
once at Boost, like leaving the till open. I was meant to close that night, and I think I counted the money, but I left the money in the till and left it open. Don't tell Jeanine Alistair and the person got there the next morning and like couldn't believe that I'd done it. Look, no one stole it. But
I've just never been good at the basics. And even when I started at my mayor a million years later, Clare and I laughed that you know, you'd be asked to go and get a handful of coffees and we'd get all the orders wrong, like and that's just basic one oh one attention to detail. There's a real vagueness to my brain that I wish I could fix, and
I'm yet to be able to do it. But I really enjoyed that independence, I suppose, And at school I certainly wasn't, you know, the smartest in my class or like I remember really loving English and history and all the essay like subjects. And then it was year eleven that I thought Claire and I both thought, what would happen if we, you know, tried our hardest, like really gave something one hundred percent. And maybe other kids have that with sport or with art or with certain hobbies,
like kids who get really good at an instrument. I think it's so important for your self esteem not to see if you come first or tenth or whatever, but like, what am I capable of if I throw everything at this thing? And so Claire and I just got really focused and worked hard in year eleven and twelve, and more than anything, just loved it. We found the harder we worked, the more we enjoyed it. And you know, that year was brilliant. It was the first time I'd ever felt I guess I felt smart and I I
felt like that could be one of my things. And we went to a school that wasn't selective or you know, known for being academic or anything like that. And in year twelve, after we did our HC and you know how all the special private schools do, like you get an estimation of what you're going to get. So all our friends across the river, they were like, I know I'm going to get above ninety five. I had no idea if I was going to get seventy or one hundred, like, no,
no sense of it. And then it was a few weeks before the results came out and I got a call on my phone from the Department of Studies being like, you have come first in extension history in the state. I didn't know there were state rankings. I could not believe it. And the extension history class we did wasn't a real class. It was six people that met at seven o'clock in the morning, and you know, it was
quite self guided. They almost didn't offer it. And so I came first in the state and Claire came fifth, and.
Just to be clear to everybody, yeah.
So it was like Claire came fifth in the state and still was like, I'm the luger in this family. But it was just the weirdest end to the year, and there was all this fuss, and Claire and I were on the front page of the paper because every year they love a twin story because it's always a bit weird, the twins that accidentally get the same mark or something. And that was a high. But then, like a lot of kids who feel like they succeeded in
year twelve, it was a rude shock. The next five or so years were really really hard, and of course I think they were actually, you know, more important and more character forming than anything before it.
And I love the article that you wrote about that sort of intensity of how we approach our year twelve results at the time, and I think it's only getting more and more intense for young people each year, and the pressure that comes with a trying to do the best that you can, but then when you do get your score, trying to do you know, as much as you can with that score, and there's like a hierarchy of jobs, and there's these perceptions of success, and then
there's you know, there's also the siloing of well, I did humanities, so I'm not, you know, a science person, so I could never be a scientist if I didn't want to. And you know, coming from sort of a historical background, you don't automatically think that that translates to journalism, media, podcasting, public speaking. You know, it's just so interesting that ultimately it doesn't really matter, just at the time you don't
really know that. So that's why I love hashing through like what your relationship was to your concept of success and your goals kind of at the time, but before we kind of trace through what you actually ended up
doing with such an incredible academic performance. The twin thing, so the fact that they the fact that you've already said Claire and I quite a few times, and that obviously other people externally are always making a big deal about it from your perspective, and this is I probably I think you probably have been asked about this more than everything else. But what was it like growing up as a twin? And are your brothers also twins?
Yeah, so we've got two sets of twins in our family. And in that way, like people who weren't twins were weird, like in our sense, not only was it. I don't know what it's like to not be a twin, but I don't know what it's like to grow up with anyone who isn't a twin, because in our family Mum and Dad were the odd ones out because they didn't have a twin, losers, well such losers. So to have this built in best friend. And I don't think all twins are like this, but for both sets of us.
And you know, there's also an innate thing of being very shy. I see it in my daughter now, there's a shyness, and I think that it can make you socially maybe a little bit lazy. And you know, whether it's your first day kindergarten or your first day of year seven, the feeling that everyone else had of taking a deep breath and going, I've got to put myself out there. I've got to meet people. And those really important social skills where you say you know, hi, I'm Sarah.
I didn't necessarily have to develop those until maybe earlier adulthood, where I was known as an individual. But to walk into every room in your whole life besides someone, it's such a safety blanket, I think, and a privilege, and in some ways. You know, in year seven and eight, we got quite badly bullied by a few girls, and I think that there was a I look back, maybe there's something a bit intimidating about twins because they felt like the best friend thing was built in and it
couldn't be infiltrated. So there's this thing with young girls where they want their person, like there's this obsession with best friends and they want their one per and when it couldn't be clear or I, it was quite easy to push us out. And so those years were really really hard, you know. I remember once we went to the movies with a bunch of friends and we're just stop to be invited because there'd been all this stuff
going on. And we got there and they ran away and hid, like and they hid and they played this practical joke, and so we were at this shopping center like, oh, they've they hid from us, And we didn't have phones, so we had to call mom on a public phone and be like can you come pick us up? Our friends hid from us?
Oh yess.
And then later we were like, oh, that was really mean how you hid from us, And they were like it was a joke. You can't take a joke.
So it's not awful, aren't they awful?
They're so so awful, And it's like, oh, I just think about Learner and hitting those those years like it, you know, years on, there's like an impact. I still meet certain peaceeople who remind me of this girl in year eight, and like this kind of alarm goes off in my head. But I mostly just feel so lucky that I've had someone to debrief on every single day of my life with no judgment and no fear that she's going to go anywhere.
Oh my gosh, that is the most beautiful description I've ever heard of twinship, because I feel like, I mean, it's so fascinating to anyone who's not a twin. And I love that you said it was so normalized for you. And I think that's the same with any defining characteristic of your childhood, is that in all the ways it's
different to everyone else. You don't know that, and like we don't become aware of that until much later, and that's when all the like everything starts to kind of go downhill, once we start the comparison and all that stuff. I love that you had, firstly, no idea that anyone else was different, but that it has been so formative and positive in that way, Like it's so sweet because I feel like sometimes the dialogue is like the first question so many people ask is like have you heard
a threesome? Do your boyfriend like? And it's like, no, I want to know what it was actually like, like, yeah, did you guys get you know, frustrated if people would confuse you, like in a sense that fraternal twins don't get how did it change your identity forming at that age? And I love that you are actually close because I imagine like at times it could have gone the other way.
Yeah. I remember in primary school people used to call us the twins or twinies and we hated it, like we just felt like we weren't even afforded our own names. And it's funny because in adulthood we've kind of re embraced that and been like, oh, that's fine, we are the twins, maybe because we feel more secure in our
own identities. But there were moments then, I suppose, and maybe maybe same with my brothers, where we felt you feel like a bit of a freak show in that way, or that people are looking at you and thinking you're a bit weird and I didn't love that. And weirdly, we didn't have any other twins in our year, ever, whereas my brother's had three sets of twins, and I think it's probably more common now, but certainly an adulthood,
I've seen what a gift it is as well. And having Claire now has her baby is nearly eleven months old, so to have them so close is I didn't realize when we will pregnant what that would mean.
Oh, that's so special, so special, And I'm an awe of you as well, because I think that it's already such a difficult, like just that chunk of your life, those formative years is so hard to figure out who you are, and there's so much pressure and so many social norms and expectations that kind of start to creep in. And we talk so much about like the comparison trap, but for you guys there, and I'm always like, well,
it doesn't really matter because there's no parallel universe. You can't compare to the you if you would have done something else Whereas you guys, it's like there's this living even though you're separate people in other people's estimation it's like, well, you know, one of them science he and one of them's arety, Like, you know, there is this kind of parallel comparison that I can imagine would be kind of difficult for people to be like, well, she chose this
and she chose this, But it's beautiful that you ended up both doing the same masters and somehow both ending up in the same job and workplace for the same nearly ten year period, which is incredible, an incredible testament to you both.
Yes, and we actually studied different things. Claire went on and did I saw psychology and could have gone on and become a psychologist, like I think that was something she was thinking about for a while. And then I did a master's in history and gender studies, and then we started writing this blog together, which we were just having lots of fun doing in twenty twelve, and after a few years of doing that, Maya Friedman who owns One Maya came across it and reached out to us,
and I guess that was the dream. But we've never really looked forward, Like never, when we started UNI, it was never like I want to do this, and then when we started at my Mayor, it was never like I want to do this. It was very much like what do I enjoy doing in this moment. I think I'm still a bit like that, and there's definitely no five to ten, fifteen year plan, but we've definitely shown
each other what's possible in different arenas. So I think the comparison thing probably has been hard at times where one of us, you know, has had a moment of success and the other has felt a little bit left out. But Claire recently submitted her first manuscript for her first book, and I probably I'm not meant to say this, but
screw it or say it. The acknowledgment at the front is just like to Jesse for showing me I could, which was so touching because I didn't realize that by sitting down and going I'm going to write a book, I taught clear that it was possible. Because of course there are other women who have done that. For me, I would say that watching Holly my co host Don
mummeir out loud, showed me I could do it. So I love that idea that it's like you're just providing a bit of a blueprint of how such a big project can be done.
And I think That's why I love this podcast so much, is because every different pathway and story that I have the privilege to tell, and I am always trying to make sure they are as different from each other as possible. I hope that is one listener's blueprint for them believing they could do that, because it's just a visibility thing most of the time that you need to believe someone
else has done it. And I think there is still this romance around when I was five, I wanted to go to space, and this was the astronaut that we had on a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to go to space from her early early childhood and she spent her whole life positioning herself to be selected, and she became an astronaut and she is now Australia's first astronaut. That is astronomically astronomically rare, so rare, and so I
love that you haven't always had that plan. You haven't needed I think the dots connect anyway, but you haven't needed to know that necessarily, as you've put one foot in front of the.
Other exactly and sort of going following your nose in terms of what interests me and what brings me joy and the other stuff will follow. And I've always thought as well that and I think it's similar with the astronaut aspiration. It's like you can want something and dream of something, you don't have to believe you can do it yet, Like that's okay. I think that we've got this thing of like in order to actually do the thing, we think we've got to mentally believe in ourselves. And
I think that's a a lie. It's like when I started writing a book, no part of me believed I would finish a book. Yeah, I just prove to myself. The belief comes after you do the thing, not before it. And so like I think we can get focused on kind of eliminating all the self doubt cognitively and it's like, just do the thing just like whatever it is. Don't think you've got to get into the right head space.
Same with a podcast, Like if you'd said to you years ago, oh, you're going to make this many episodes of a podcast, you'd be like, I can't do that. I don't have the skills or whatever. But then you just develop the skills and you look back and that's where the self esteem actually comes from.
I love that. I often refer to the quote even in my own brain when I like, I'm such a we become a product of our generation, which is instragratuity. And it's like, I have this dream. I want the dream tomorrow, like by nine am, like or before close a business like at the latest. You know I won't I won't wait years for my dream to come true. We want everything now, And yeah, I have to remind myself like you don't have to see the whole staircase to take the first step. You don't need to see
the end of the story. You just need to start it. And the naivety actually often works in your favor because if you knew how hard it would be the end like, you wouldn't do it. So it's a good thing that we all have to start somewhere exactly. This is my favorite part of your story that firstly, you didn't necessarily study and get qualified in the thing that you ended up doing. But secondly, it's very very rare in this day and age to find anyone who has worked in
the same workplace for nearly ten years. That's incredibly unusual. But also that you are now an executive editor in the workplace where you began. And I loved this description of your first job as an editorial assistant, and the job description was loading posts. I loaded posts. I was like, if there's ever been an example of like started from the bottom.
Now I'm here.
I was loading posts. Now I'm an executive editor. I hadn't climb the ladder.
Oh yeah. And I started by like there would be submissions sent to the inbox, and then I wasn't picking the submissions. I was then sent them by an editor being like, can you load this into the back end. So it was really was putting in images and coming trying with a headline and SEO and all of that kind of that kind of stuff. And then I think they actually didn't have that job for a period. So there was another job which was basically like filing videos.
I would go into the back and every video that had been done, it was like tag it with relevant terms, and I would sit there and tag it and I was like, I just like being in this office. And sometimes I would load a posts and I would think, I think I can write something better than this, Like I really I don't think much of myself, but like I can do better than this, and so Claire and I would stay back and write our own stuff, and some of it got up and some of it absolutely didn't.
And we didn't even have the skills to write a news story. I had no idea the structure of a news I wouldn't know what the first sentence should be. Nothing. I knew how to write nessa. I didn't know how
to write for the internet. And it was only the generosity of other people in the office who were very busy and shouldn't have given us the time because that was not part of their job to sit down and go, this is how you do it, give us a like pretty stern feedback about what was and wasn't working, and we took that on and learn. I don't even I wouldn't even say I was a particularly quick learner with
that stuff, but I was definitely interested and determined. But it took like at least a year or two before I was writing for the site. And then an opportunity came up on mummeir out Loud. One of the hosts left, and I think they wanted a younger voice, so they gave me an opportunity. I was appalling to talk about Chloe Kardashian story maybe, and I couldn't tell a story like I had no idea how to explain how this thing happened because I'd never done it before. But for
some reason, they gave me another go. And I was so nervous and so over prepared and like so trying to prove how smart I was, and I would just you know, they eventually gave me another go, another go, and I got the gig and from there it's been you know, I think I was maybe weekend editor for a while, assistant head of content, and now executive editor. Means that I can kind of operate a little bit of as an island and do the projects and really own the projects that I love, which at the moment
is podcasting. I just love it.
Well, you are extraordinary at it, which is amazing. But I bet that telling twenty fifteen Jesse, who was you know, loading posts, that this is where you'd end up. There's just no way that you could possibly conceive of being like right at the top of this business where you
started sort of as such a junior. But before we move on to sort of how you can position yourself in a business and have that faith to keep trying even if you don't feel that you're very good at something at the beginning you mentioned just then proving that
you are really smart. And I think a lot of where people go maybe on tangents or diversions or have not misguided but have chapters that kind of don't really make sense for them, is where they do fall into trying to prove things to other people or making decisions from ego rather than as you mentioned, just like what
makes me happy, what's joyful? And I think that is trying to prove that you're smart, or getting a really good enderscore and feeling like you have to use every point on the degree that you choose, and then you know you do. You have a bachelor's degree in modern history and gender studies and then a master's degree of research, which is an incredible, like not overqualification for what you do,
but it's not necessarily correlating. Yeah, did you ever feel like, oh, I'm walking away from this kind of very academic investment of time, Like how how did you reconcile that?
Definitely, and that's a pool like that research and feeling like I existed in this certain environment there was actually definitely and I still sense it from the environment. I came from a little bit of eyebrow raising.
I was gonna ask, yeah, a bit of.
Like seeing it as a demotion or like you've sold out because and this is actually why I found academia flawed, which everyone I know who works in academia agrees with me,
which is that it is very small, very insular. You have the most exciting and important research and papers being published that are so inexc to anyone outside of the academy, and it is an incredible shame because it's really important stuff, and there's not enough investment in communicating, Like you can do the best research in the world, but if you're not able to communicate it to a lot of people,
then did it ever really get written? And that's what I was frustrated by, is that I would write this twenty thousand word thesis and I think two people read it. And so then when you get on the internet and you can write in an hour an article that a quarter of a million people read, there is something very addictive about that. It's like this this sugar rush, and in a way you can get addicted to that and see it as more worthwhile, which I don't necessarily think
it is, and I think there's dangers in that. But I also learned with the you know, with thinking you need to use everything you know, every mark that you got or every degree you have. It's like, every time there's an achievement, there's this thing that we do where it's like, what's next, what's next, What's next? And the pressure and the suffocation of that, and whether it's that you've just done really well in your HC or you've
just had a professional moment. Often those moments are the scariest because everyone looks at you and they're like, how are you going to back this up? And it's like, oh shit, it's never enough, Like I'm never finished. And I think I've learned to kind of let go of that a little bit now and go, I'm going to consolidate some of the projects I'm already on and go and do the best job at this podcast that I can.
But I think that pressure is a real shame because you never get to actually celebrate some of those wins.
Yeah, totally, totally. It's just the pace of everything is so fast as well that you feel like you'll fall out of relevance if you pause for like two seconds to celebrate the thing that you're actually hard to achieve.
It's interesting that you did feel a bit of a raised eyebrow kind of situation because I found that when I left law and started business, but that was very heavily eCOM based that it was sort of like, Oh, what's that cute little thing you're doing on the internet, like social media, and it was it was definitely until it started making money and then kind of getting in the AFR and stuff like that. It was definitely this little, funny,
cute little side thing that I was doing. And even still though I noticed that, and I've admitted this only recently because I only realized recently, but I've said it in a few episodes that I still can't drop the lawyer turned entrepreneur from my title in my mind because I'm like, I just need you to know that I did do that thing. Yeah, and I do have that side of my personality and I don't do it anymore. But and I don't think it was a waste of time,
but it's just there. It's just still part of everything, you know, And it's interesting, I.
Think, yeah, it's I think as women in any sort of media, people are looking for ways to dismiss you and call you an idiot, especially if you do anything on social media. It's like you are vacuous, you are dumb, you are a sellout. So we feel this need to like legitimize that, justify that there's actually skill in it
and that you kind of even building a platform. It's like, it's taken a really really long time to do pretty much everything in my career, and I I don't know if I feel envy, but there are some people who, like, you know, do have this, whether it's a breakout book or whether it's something go viral and they explode. I certainly haven't had that experience. It's been like a really slow growth of doing you know, the podcast for a
lot of years or whatever. And so I do kind of feel like, yeah, maybe I've got to justify why I have a right to say anything like because and I do actually feel that that's part of my identity and that we live in a world that is trying to deny research and facts and objectivity, which I believe very very strongly in and I think it's never been more important to argue with data and research. But yeah, I certainly feel like you can be very dismissed if you're a woman with any kind of profile.
Yeah, And it's interesting the subtlety how long it took me to realize that's what I was doing as well. I just thought it was funny, and now I'm like, oh, there's some weird psychology going on. I can speak declare
about that totally. But it's also I think that's another reason why I kind of labor over these earlier chapters of people's lives, because they don't get as much airtime because it's not necessarily what you do right now, but it is to remind everyone that you did labor over all of the chapters that you've been in to get
to the position that you're in now. You didn't just walk into the host role of one of the bigger shows in Australia and know what to do, Like I was going back, and your first internship in media was like MTV in twenty eleven, and then you've done short courses to upskill. So it's and like you said, when you first began, you were good at podcasting, And I don't think people believe that they can upskill in a
totally new area. I think they think I've got to be good at X or, like I've mentioned earlier, the siloing thing, it's like, I'm not academic, so I can't do this, Or I'm not creative so I can't do this. It's like, or you could just find really good mentors and do some short courses and try and see. And I feel like you've done that. You've added so many strings to your bowl along the way to books, writing
and producing a TV show. Like it's been this beautiful progression of every next level has been a different set of skills.
And in that way, I think it's the only thing I think I've done other than And I know it's very unpopular to say luck, but I do think that luck plays a part. Is that I have said yes. I have to my own detriment. I have said yes when I probably should have said no. But if someone said, hey, do you want to be a weekend writer and that means that you work Saturdays and Sundays, I said yes. When someone said can you work Christmas Day? I said yes. I wouldn't say yes now because I think that that
has shifted. I think I've earned the right to say no. But I do not think I would have had any of those things, even like the TV or the You might get the opportunity to go into a TV spot and it's not paid and it's at seven o'clock in the morning and it's going to take work. But I said yes because it was something I wanted to get
good at. And I think when you say no to things, that's a cost, as long as you know what that cost is, like own the no. But I definitely feel like being open to a lot of those things has helped take me in a very strange direction. And we talk at work about a ladder and a lattice, like
a ladder is just up. And I was on that trajectory for a little bit in terms of, oh, will you be the head of content or the editor or whatever, and I realized I didn't want to do that, and so I sidestepped and went, Okay, rather than that, I'm going to go and do some TV writing and I'm going to write a book and I'm going to do some TV spots or whatever. And that made me feel satisfied. Rather than being the big boss, I have no desire to be anyone's boss. Yeah.
Wow, Okay, So this is one of my favorite realizations in the kind of matrix of seizing anyone's Yeah, and that is that we spend so much of our journey thinking that bigger and further upwards is better, just necessarily, like without any other considerations. And same with the hierarchy of jobs. We think that quitting corporate and working for yourself is better, Like that's because it's romanticized, and or
being a CEO is better. And like, what I think people don't realize is that we are not all built the same. The fabric of what lights you up but also makes you desperately unhappy, or what is your fear versus what is your passion? It looks different for everyone else. So we can't all be CEOs and enjoy it. We
can't all be business owners as enjoy it. And it's actually quite normal to think I don't want to be my boss or I don't like it's the most empowering thing ever, maybe for some people is to say I just don't need to progress. I'm happy here, And like, I don't think we allow people to have that realization.
No, I was reading maybe it's Atomic Habits. It's some book that I was reading a little while ago that said the first thing you should choose rather than like how much money I want to make or what job do I want to do? Or do I want the promotion? Is like what do you want your day to look like? And then what do you want your week to look like? And then work backwards from there, because I do not
want my day to look like meetings. I don't want my day to look like I'm really bad at any sort of confrontation, Like if I was managing someone and there was an issue with performance, I just can't. It's just not worth how much anxiety it gives me to give that feedback. I don't want to be up at six and working late, like that's not me, And that's been actually more important since I've had a baby to go What exactly do you want your days to look like?
When do you feel most connected to Luna? Like there's a threshold at which you lean into work so much that you feel disconnected and you're just a nightmare for you know everyone around you, and you know the money and the promotion and the career goals can all fit around it. But if your day is hell, then no matter what goals you hit, your unhappy. So that's kind of the granular. What I've found going back to has really helped me since having a baby.
Yeah, I love that. I often describe it as like we all spend our brain like our thinking time and goal setting time in the macro like macro my title to be or what are my macro goals? And unfortunately, if you leave out the micro of what does that translate to day to day? That's how people find achieving their goal sometimes doesn't feel the way that they thought it would because they didn't consider the micro. So I'm always like, think about both levels before you decide anything in your life.
Yes, yes, I totally agree.
When we had the matchup business, the pressure to get into supermarkets was so high because it was like, well, instantly you become a multimillion dollar business, and why would you not want to you know, ten times your revenue overnight. And of course for ages, we invested so much money in that process, thinking that was the logical next step, and then I realized I left corporate to not do that,
and this is corporatizing the thing that I created. So I could leave the corporate world and I don't want to be in a hys best in a factory every day like it. But the ego of like realizing it's okay to not try for that next big thing is I think really really complex.
Yeah, And you've got to create time in your schedule to enjoy the big moments like I often, you know, whether it's live shows or submitting a book or book publicity. It's like that stuff of like reaping the rewards for hard work. If that is all done between other hard work and you're tired and burnt out and grumpy, then none of that is fun. Like and I've had that experience of like being in this situation and looking around and going, this is a career. I remember going to
this writer's festival, total career goal. Who I was on a panel with, who I got to spend time with, And it was traveling and I was in this great hotel and I resented every minute of it because I wanted to be at home, because I was tired, because I had stuff I knew I needed to do between everything. And in that way, it's like, what's the point if you don't get to have fun at those sorts of moments? And maybe that means you write a book every five years rather than a book every year, like who says
you have to write a book every year. Who says that you've got to say yes to this, you know, incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so much that your marriage suffers like no one. So I, yeah, have certainly that's my goal when I get those incredible moments, to actually be able to feel them.
I love that reminder because I think, yeah, we think of everything monetarily and don't consider that that quote of like if it costs you your peace, it's too expensive, so it doesn't really matter what you make from it
if you're unhappy, Like what's the point. And You've got a beautiful chapter in my dear friend Genevieve Day's book on the Juggle, and there was something you said that I highlighted and scribbled down because I thought it was just so valid that you had become ungrateful for objectively joyful moments. And I think that's when you know you've pushed it too far, when you can't even enjoy the good bits, so like why have any bits at all?
Yes? And then you become I've got a real thing about being in moments and thinking I should feel one way and not feeling that way, Which is this I heard this term recently about emotional perfectionism. I think that's what I had that I think my emotion should be
perfect in every moment, and they're not. And that's been a real like relief actually, because you look at like, for example, I went and saw Jolly Olderton recently at the Opera House, and you look at her in the opera House, and she sold out the opera House, and she looks gorgeous and what a career. And most people in media would look at her and go, that is what I want. But my own life has taught me
you have no idea how she feels you have. It can look so glamorous, but she might have had the worst day and been slogging over a script that she submitted that got rejected, Like you just have no idea, And then someone in the audience who's just come here and she's been looking forward to it all week is probably feeling a lot happier than Dolly on stage, and who's the winner there, Like, happiness can't be felt by
the other people around you who are envious. If you think that other people's envy is going to build you up, it's not because you can't touch that. So it's I think, realizing as well as cliche as it is the tiny, tiny joys that bring you just as much happiness, which is like, you know, today I'm mostly at home with Luna, and it'll be the best day of my week. No matter what else happens, it'll be the best day of my week. And yeah, that's certainly been a surprise. I think.
Oh, I love that, and I can't wait to get to more on Lunar and oh my goodness, you're sixty two and a half hour labor like you will talk about proving to yourself that you can do hard things in just a moment, but just wrapping up the sort of career progression, and particularly the lattice, I love that analogy.
I think that's such a good visual reminder that it doesn't have to just go upwards in the sort of complicated matrix, particularly as women that we have, but just for anyone really of putting yourself forward for new positions, not believing that you can do them, imposter syndrome, self doubt, burnout, everything that comes with going, you know, getting promotions and putting yourself forward for those things. What has been your You mentioned that you're not always thinking you know too
far ahead? What has been your model for those moves?
Ea?
Each of those jumps? Has it been like a mentor that you turn to? Like, how do you even know that it's time for a new role? How did you decide I want to be an author? How did you kind of know when the cusp of a new chapter was happening?
I and this is not necessarily a great model, but it's true. Is I have used jealousy. So anytime I feel jealousy, which I am quite a jealous envious person at something I don't like about myself, but every time I see it, every time I feel it, I go, what is it that you want? And sometimes if I look at it really closely and I go, you actually don't want that, the jealousy of vaporates, which is great.
So it's like sometimes I say something and I'm like, oh, you said no to that, you actually don't want to do that, and then you go, ah, oh cool, I'm actually not jealous. And then other times I go, Okay, this person has written a book. Oh, this person wrote a fiction book. I've always want to write a fiction book.
And it's like, oh, great, that was clarifying. You want to write a fiction book, Well, then do it instead of sitting there stewing on how jealous you feel about this person or thinking it has anything to do with them, because it doesn't. It's just your own like navigation system of what's next. And then like I found that with television as well, and I think it all builds on each other, Like I wouldn't have been able to write
fiction if I hadn't written nonfiction. That was my putting my toe in and going can we write a book and playing with narrative, and then going, I think I've skilled up to go, Okay, I can write fiction, which is dialogue. You learn how to write dialogue and then you go all right. I actually do think I can write for screen, but there's no way I could have
started with screen. And in saying that, it's like when Claire and I wrote our first episode of something, we did not know the program, so it's like everyone was sending us, We're like, oh, can we just see you like what a script looks like? Because I was like, what what do you do?
Do you write?
Is the name in capitals? Like I've never I literally have on my bookshelf all the succession scripts and I've got the script for fleabag and I've got the script for normal people, because I was like, I need to self teat like I haven't done a course in this. I don't know all these people went to UNI to go and learn to script write, like I need to
learn in one day how to write a script. And maybe that comes down to like studying, Like I quite like that intense getting across something quickly, and a belief that if you work hard at something you'll be able to do it. Like I have a very strong belief in prep that's the only way that I get over nerves. Is like if I were to go on stage in an hour, I would probably be really nervous because like
I don't know what I'm going to say. But if I know what I'm going to say, know how it's going to go, and I trust my ability to prepare, I don't trust myself. So that I think has been a good mantra for me is that like if you work hard enough, the imposter syndrome or whatever you want to call it will dissipate because you know you've put in the hours.
Yeah, it's like giving yourself data points to sort of rely on exactly. You know, self doubt in Korea and upskilling it sort of seems like the biggest thing in your entire life until you become a mum, and then all the problems you thought you have become very simple and they've become really one dimensional compared to sort of this whole new thing that you're facing where you're like, oh, I thought I knew what the word hard meant until now,
and I don't even know. I mean, I had a C section, so it was like ten minutes and then it was just kind of done. But sixty two and a half hours, like, tell me you didn't have moments of self doubt like I can't do this? What happened? Oh my gosh, that was.
The whole pregnancy, and I got perinatal depression and anxiety like I was. I have a total phobia of pain, of being stuck, which is kind of what labor is, like you are stuck in experience that you can't end. Absolutely no belief that I could do that, And it didn't matter how many women said they'd done it, because I was like, yeah, yeah, but you're stronger than me. You don't get it. I'm weak, you're strong. I have
no doubt that you did that. I saw my psychologist during it and he said he kind of got to the bottom of it and was like, you are scared that you're going to die. And I was like, I am. I am scared that I'm going to die when I give birth, Like I just don't have any faithor in my body's ability to do it. And so I actually went in initially and said I need to get a
C section. I'd had a really traumatic experience with pain where I had been stuck in pain for a long period prior just a year prior, and I was like, if I get stuck in pain, I will panic, and I really don't want to panic, and I need to control what I can. And the obstetrician said, I hear you, and if that's the choice you want to make, absolutely, but think about it. And he said to me, it's
one day of your life, which ironically it wasn't. I think, let's just keep an eye on this baby and positioning and measurements, and I think you'll be surprised. And so I did lots of research. I did the birthing classes, I read all the books, and I went I think this is intant for me to try, like that it could be quite a big thing if I'm able to do it. And so me and my my twin sister both had very very long labors and they just weren't progressing and kept getting sent home from hospital and all
of that. And then I went in. I got an epigeneral. They say to wait till you're like, I don't know five centimeters. I think I was two, and I was like, stick it in. I just I have guys, It's just I have no pain for it. I'll just do it. And then the actual giving birth is the best experience I've ever had, Like I absolutely loved it, and I have walked around the world since. And I've been really careful about talking about this because you do not earn
a birth. My twin sister, with the same body had a traumatic birth, Like we could not be more identical. We prepared exactly the same. I didn't earn anything. But even with her traumatic birth, we've both said, you can walk around the world a little bit straighter because you're like, I cannot believe what my body did, whether that is vaginal c section, however that baby comes out, you're like, holy shit, Like I didn't know I could grow a baby and even like look after it and you feel
like a baileya every minute of every day. But like that to me has given me more self esteem than anything I've ever done. Like I just can't believe if that baby, who I think is the most perfect thing in the world, has anything to do with me, then like I am great.
I am the actual shit, Like the actual shit. I think that's just one thing that's amazing about listening to you is that in every regard, whether it's like your childhood or your career or even giving birth, it's your incredible self awareness. And I think the disconnect for a lot of people in fulfillment or happiness or whatever you want to call it with their life is that they don't just really get in touch with like what am I good at? What are my incentives? What motivates me?
What doesn't motivate me? Like you know that you to even be able to articulate that you operate from jealousy, Like that's a motivator, Like it's you know, you don't want to be a jealous person, but the fact that you can use that to your advantage, Like all you need to know is the fabric that makes up your exact composition of like fulfillment and then just build your
life around it. And I think the problem is that people look at other people's fabric and then make decisions based on that, and it's like, well, of course horse riding wasn't going to make you happy because you hate animals, Like that doesn't make sense, you know exactly, And it's about that acceptance, Like it's I think being really close to your siblings helps because even if you don't have
self awareness, they will give it to you. Like no one will tell me in how many different ways I'm flawed, like my family will in a very loving way.
But I think you're absolutely right. It's like we're very quick to see everyone else's issues and neuroses and diagnose and narcissism and all of those things that we throw around without seeing that we have exactly the same level of shit that we're dealing with. And I think self
awareness gets you a long way. And you know that self reflection because I've seen like going and seeing a psychologist and that's because I've had years of knowing that I'm anxious or having episodes of depression and being able to work out why that happens and where I get stuck. I can't always see that in the moment, but I certainly see the value in untangling it after and sometimes if it's writing down. I found writing really good for
that in terms of processing what's going on. And even like after giving birth, it was like I didn't write anything to publish, but like I might just write in a journal to just understand the complexity of all the feelings. Yeah.
Wow, And now would you say, I mean like we need a whole other episode to talk about the juggle and the way that your goal setting, time management, prioritization, like self care, all of those things just completely changes in such a radical way once you have a baby. Now that Luna's sort of sixteen months, did you say, yeah, yeah, how are you feeling in terms of are you full pelt back at work? Do you feel like is there still the mumfog? Are you like how you feeling with the juggle?
Every like every week since I've had Lunar, I would have a different answer still now, like I think it changes. Right now, I'm feeling very good because I went away with my family last weekend. I have It's funny because a lot of what I do is public facing, right, So it's like if I'm on a podcast, then my friends and family will probably see a video of it on Instagram. What you can't see is how many of
those podcasts I did in one day. So it might look like I'm working every day, but I'm absolutely not working every day. It's like I try and have at least probably one to two days during the week that can be lunar days and during her naps. I will, you know, whether it's a bit of script writing or other projects I'm working on, I will try and get that done. But my vision of success has totally changed and the cost of what projects Like, I think I
was very like, very ambitious. I still am very ambitious, and I felt to coming back actually because I think that for a while the ambition did dull, not in a bad way, but I was just very focused on
as much time as possible with Luna. I'm feeling it come back because I simply have more time, and like even the difference between my baby and Clare's is that she's at an age now where like she'll sit there and read her book and like she kind of wants a bit of independence, and that might mean that I can read a book, or that I can go and do like I know that she doesn't. There's just I'm
feeling more and more independence, I think. So at the moment, yeah, I would probably do like I reckon three three and a half full days a week of work and then around naps try and work however I can. But the big thing has been family. I have enormous my mother in law, my mum, Like, we have a nanny who comes a day a week right now, my father in law and Luca's brother is downstairs with lunar like. That has been the greatest, the greatest blessing. There is no
privilege when you have kids like. Family like that has just made this experience totally different than it might be if I lived regionally or overseas and had no support.
Oh my gosh, I'm the same. My family lived within like four ks or three k's and over every day, and I just think on those days where I'm not feeling great and i don't feel like I'm getting the balance right, I'm just like and I have all that. Imagine Yeah, without that, how I would be feeling.
Even on the days when you don't need the help or you don't call in the help. You do know it's there, and that's very different. Like imagine not sleeping waking up and going there is no one I can call. Knowing that there are people you can call is totally totally different. Like I just think, yeah, the experience for people, I feel like I've always got to preface everything with that because I just think i'd have it'd be completely different if I didn't have that sort.
Yeah, I'm absolutely in the same boat, and it is. It does allow a big part of your brain the freedom to just enjoy the experience a lot more because you're not completely without any break or without any time to like miss them. You know, it's like absence makes
the heart grow fonder with everything. But I think also in motherhood it's nice to yeah, I mean, once you first get through that first kind of bit, to be able to start to miss them and then be so excited when you get to get to see them again.
Exactly and to know that, you know, I get up and have this great I get to do breakfast and we hang out in the morning and we have this great time before my mom comes and seeing her face light up when she sees my mom or Luca's mom is just the greatest joy. And then I get to run in the door like after work, and I've never run high from work before. I just am so keen to get back, and I feel like that helps me to appreciate it, like it's it's just so so much fun.
And to see other people what they see in your baby, to have that shared and to just all of you marvel at this baby together is like, yeah, it's how our ancestors did it. And I just the loneliness that and I think you feel loneliness regardless, but yeah, it's definitely different when you've got a real support network.
Well, Jesse, I know today is a lunar day and I don't want to take any more of your precious time, but I feel like I could. I've there's so many things I want to talk. We didn't even touch on strife. We hardly even got into your books. But I'll include links to everything in the show notes. And of course I don't think I need to link one mayor out loud or any of the shows because I feel like everyone will already know what they are, but just in case, I will make sure to include all that. But thank
you so much for your time. It's been such a joy.
Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I've really enjoyed listening to your podcast and seeing all your work and the community that you've built. So thank you for everything you've done.
Like I said at the start of this conversation, this was actually the first time I'd ever sat down to chat with Jesse, and yet somehow I feel like we had been friends for a million years. I could tell her pretty much anything, my deepest, darkest fears, all my vulnerabilities. She's just one of those warm, intelligent, articulate people that you just can't hear enough of. I could have chatted to her for hours and probably will have her back on the show at some point. Definitely going to go
and reread her two books. If you don't follow her already, you absolutely should. I suspect most of you probably already do. But in case you don't, I will pop the link to her page in the show notes, as well as the link to the shows she hosts on Mamma Maya and her two beautiful books. In the meantime, I hope you guys are having a wonderful week. The silly season isn't too silly too quickly. I feel like it's starting
earlier and early every year. It is absolutely wild, but I hope you're all looking after yourselves and seizing U A h