Jarrad and Michael Duggan-Tierney // The Real Dads of Melbourne in their first podcast EVER

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Acknowledge that it will be a bit rocky. You know you might not fall on your feet first. Go give yourself a bit of a break, don't be too hard on yourself. And it's okay to look back and think, oh God, I shouldn't have left, and but don't stay in that space for too long. Own what you're doing and look forward. I think that's something that we try and still as read. The only thing we can control right now is how I'm feeling right now.

Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore, the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days

Thanks so much, Sarah, thanks so much for having us.

I'm so excited to have you guys here today. I always love chatting with you, but particularly as this is your very first podcast ever. It feels like a real honor to be able to share your story for the first time in this format. And it's been such a long time since we saw each other in person.

Well, I saw you up the street, but we couldn't go in the back of your car taking a photo of.

As soon as I heard my name, I was like, oh my god, it's happened. I've made it onto influences in the wild and Nick trying to get a nice candid photo of us in the boot of the car as if we were actually like, we chose the most obscure side streets so we wouldn't see any other humans next in it.

Hums.

Yeah, but you had Junior with you, guys. I think it was one of your first walks and it was just so beautiful.

That was pretty amazing.

Oh my gosh, how special. And I cannot wait to dive into this brand new addition to your family. But also the whole journey of how you formed your wonderful family. And I love that you guys think you're really boring and uninteresting, but we all hold onto every single detail of your life so thrilled to dive into it today.

Yeah, as you say, I think we only share, like anybody on social media, highlights of your life or you know, things you're passionate about. So I think we're pretty transparent and we share down to earth. Yeah, spects of our life. I'm sitting Michael from the top up, I'm in a share from the bottom.

Down, I'm in track pants, same babe.

That pretty much represents who we are, you know.

Yeah, I think what you touched on before about is just being pretty boring. I think we're average guys, you know, doing doing life. Yeah. Yeah, we're obviously very proud dads. And that's the most important part of her life is read so hopefully creating a safe and secure mind socurre in moment for him and you know, watching him grow and learn and be able to navigate this tricky world.

Absolutely, I think you guys do that so well with such grace and also such honesty. You kind of it's not like you're telling this story retrospectively. You've actually really brought a lot of your followers along the ride from the very beginning and navigating all the different chapters, and you know that you share a lot of that along

Thank you, Thank you. Yeah, difference is something that I think should be celebrated, something that we're really proud of to be, you know, challenging that social norm.

I suppose, yeah, And I think you do it so well. And I think the more that people can see, like, I think one of the big problems with representation in any area is that people often look at the landscape and can't see themselves, or they can't see their family, or they can't see their situation represented anywhere because either people don't share it or haven't felt comfortable, or it's

After all these years is our username. It's something that Michael wants to keep it. He's happy to keep it because he actually just doesn't care what the name of it. It makes me cringe, Like the Real Dad a lot of new you know, if you get a new follow.

Or something like Real Dads.

You know, used to sound like a couple of wan because it was a stupid spin off of a TV series before it even was an Australian TV series. It was just The Real Housewives of OC or something that I used to watch and it was just a username. Whereas we did laughed having a bit of a life. We didn't think it'd be that popular.

It's so popular. It turns out you've got like an entire tribe of people following you. I also love how it's Real Dads and like we expect that it's a shared account, you'll hear both voices, but really it's just Jared and Michael like vaguely tolerating and like sometimes being in the background.

I mean, it's both of us to contribute to it. It's you know, like I'm like, can I share that? Mark's like, fuck, no, you cannot share that, so therefore it doesn't chair. But he also edits a lot of the scripts. I don't ever ever share anything, not one images on there that you've not looked at and gone, okay, you're representing our family, you can do that. So there is definitely the creative.

I'm definitely the witty one with a wicked sense of humor.

Oh, I think both of you are. I mean we just before we started recording, we're talking about the great circle carpet gage that's been happening in your family of late. There was a.

I stepped over that rug for two weeks trying to lay it at the bottom of the stairs.

It was like laid out on the ground thing. Heavens we haven't had any visitors because like it was a trip.

Oh wait, I mean I was looking at it, thinking that's a disaster. I mean, read has Dad's classes in the house, Like, but I love how Michael just like stepped right over it, like no, I will cut it later. I think it ended up in a bed at one point.

Yeah, that's right.

I was like, well, tried to get it in his car, Like I was down in the garage heaving that bloody thing into the car, and then I couldn't get the door closed.

I'm like, no, this is no, this is just not what I should be doing with it.

So I bought it back upstairs and then I moved to a couple more locations, and yes, ended up in the bed Michael.

He has to go to bed sometimes.

Basically, Jared had a car, but he wanted to cut into a circle. Michael had to cut it into a circle. It was a big disaster. It didn't get cut into a circle. And then when it did get cut into the circle, it was laid out like only the cutouts from around the circle were cut out and put into the room, which I also think is beautiful. So you say that Jared is the joker in the relationship, Michael, but I don't believe that.

Yeah, that's true.

It was pretty funny Jared. It amusing, but I thought it was absolutely hysterical.

Oh my gosh. Well, the very first section of this show, as you guys probably already know, is Your Way TA or Your Pathya, which is pretty much tracing back all the chapters of your life before the one. Like you mentioned, you know, you have a lot of people who have started following you recently and walk into your life and presents as if you know. I think we just forget that everyone has been through a lot of angst and a lot of diversions and not knowing what your purpose

Yeah. Sure.

I was born in Mildura.

Oh Miltura, Yeah yeah, country boy. My mum is still there with most of my family. I have one that lives here in Melbourne. Growing up as a kid, there was a lot of fun, you know, a lot of open space and the weather really good times. My dad was really sick. He had cancer when I was really little, so I think my childhood went from being an innocent little boy to stepping up and being a sense of strength of my mum who wasn't coping very well with

So yeah, I think I.

Just learned to step up and feel just the need to sort of make people feel okay, and that was sort of my job, which is really interesting now that I look back, as the way I parent read or the way that I am with people is just sort of reliable, and I really link that back to them that when I yeah, I was really young, so it's extraordinary. Part of our fostering program, we had to write our

Wow, isn't it so interesting? This is why I love this section so much, which you know, at the start, I think a lot of people are like, oh, we're

I don't know that way. That's so true.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I love that that came up so early for you, that the first time you ever sat down to write your history was such a cathartic kind of moment for you.

Yeah. Yeah, and what was for the whole family really because we also you know, sat with read and explained to him after we reflected on everything and we sort of told him our full life stories as well.

He's at an.

Age now which he's living those years that we lived, and it was really really powerful.

Yeah, as I mentioned, it was a really really powerful exercise.

And as far as myself, I grew up in Tazzy, you know, in a time before social media, in a time before computer games. Really all some families had computi games.

We didn't have them.

I've got an older brother who's five years older than I am, and I've got a sister who's eight years younger. Yeah, Mum remarried when I was little and they had my sister, so that's why the big age gap. My father lives in the Sunshine Coast. He remarried and had three children to the six of us in total. I lived out of just out of Hope Art. We lived on four acres, so our house was sort of in the middle of those four acres, and I played on my BMX bike.

And there's a lot about my stories of you you know, like lighting fires and yeah, I used to steal a mum's cigarette lighter and go a light of bush and then things would get out a little bit out of hand and I'd have to, you know, like write it.

In a little bit of hometell Mum, you know why am my clothes burnt? Or why I smell like smoke? I haven't been smoking down there. I've been like, you know, seting fire.

You know, just extreme. That's fine, exactly. That sounds like such a typical tazzy upbringing. You guys know, Nick's from Devinpoort, same things, Like my childhood was how did I survive?

Like wild exactly?

Now I'm like, oh my godness, we're so precious, you know, I keep doing anything like really like even he's mad about rollerskating at the moment, and he's probably doesn't need as much protective whereas he does, but he leaves here like looking I know, like.

He's if he could rollerskate in one of those sumo suits, we would then keep you wearing it, you know, give a minute.

We petrified he's going to break a leg or yeah where yeah, yeah, see in the afternoon, if I go on my bike without a helmet, you know, oh my god.

Yeah, I don't think we knew what helmets were back then, although I mean I'm glad we've come a long way and child's safety and so like, were you, you know, quite outdoorsy? What did you think that would translate to?

Yeah, look at my my, My part of that story is very boring. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I have no idea what I want to be. I'm just living my life right now. And you know, of course, so much comes into it. Like you just said, you know, you're worry about, you know, stability, and you know where you're going to be and will you make it to retirement and what your retirement.

It looks like.

And it's only recently, you know, we've been together now over twenty years. It's only recently the last couple of years that we've gone hold on, we need to think about like our retirement. We've always been very sensible with money and always you know, tried really hard to you know, have stability in that area for sure, But it's like what's retirement looked like? You know, your income stream stops, but your lifestyle doesn't, you know, you know, even the

So absolutely, I think that you're looking at retirements just just a word. I'm fifty next year, which means that stop it.

I know, my God, tell me about your skincare immediately that's the Apple Market's like, it's it's the filter.

I know.

And thinking that that word is now something that's only ten years away, so we really do have to think about that and plan for it, which where.

We've done, we've got someone in charge of that. Now it's all very grown up.

It is so grown up.

I actually have this like dawning horrible realization that I'm never going to wake up one day and feel grown up, Like it's just going to be decayed after decade, still going. There are some more adultier adults like that. I asked what to do about stuff.

I see them, like, you know, people come up on the news and their title come over and I'm like, oh my god, okay, young I look Michael, You're like, oh, that's because we're actually old.

Now.

Mine is when I see like a twenty nine year old with a baby and I'm like, oh, it's a teenage mum, so sweet and like innocent. Oh my god, there must be really tough for you. And then I'm like, that's the normal age when people actually voluntarily have children do that. And it's so cool that you guys have been together for twenty years because again I also think you know you're mentioning that your priorities have been shifting.

Well, I think our stories were probably very different in that respect. I didn't come out to my family until I was in a state of relationship with Michael. We've been together for a few months. They knew him as just a friend, or I thought they knew him was just a friend. But you know, they all knew your mum's no mom, no best you know mums like I always knew and didn't didn't bother her at all, which it shouldn't, you know. And we were actually like we're

It's like, well, when did you not come out?

You know?

I think there are actually people I've had someone on the podcast who was like, I never came out. I never came out. I never needed to make an announcement. I just was how I am.

Yes, yes, yeah, that was that's amazing.

That's it. That's what we hope, and we hope, you know, in Read's generation and his children that it's just that's just not a question anymore. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Me, My story is a bit different. As I mentioned before, growing up in a small country town with you and met a gay person. Never could I identify with homosexuality. And it wasn't until I became a flight attendant, which is, you know, the quintessential gay role.

Okay, I'm glad you said that, not me. Okay, good, we're allowed to acknowledge it.

I don't know.

And I came to Melbourne for my training and I met gay people when I'm like, wow, this is amazing, Like I finally sort of have found my people. So it was interesting.

You know.

I didn't come out for another couple of years after that, whilst I sort of you know, navigated my journey, but coming out to mum and Dad was something that I did first. I just if you're being really honest with yourself that you know, they don't really know you unless they've got your whole story, you know. I told my brother first and asked him to come with me to a family meeting with Mum and Dad, we'd never had a family meeting in our lives, Like, what's this about?

I was going to say, what do you mean for that's a regular thing?

Mom thought I was there to tell her that my housemate was pregnant to you.

So that was confusing and awkward.

But look, the gender reveal balloon was no longer appropriate.

But look, yeah, my brother was really supportive. Mum cried just for the reasons. I don't think she could understand what that future look like for her son. Dad was amazing. Dad was He said something like, it was quite funny. We can't do anything about that now. But what he meant by that was the next day he caught me up again and is like, what I meant by that, Well, that doesn't it doesn't matter, it never has that. We don't need to do anything about that.

Yeah, not like it's too late for me to fix that. Not what he meant.

What he meant, but he didn't have the ability to articulate how he was feeling. But it was also very strange because my brother, who had battled a long time of drug use and depression and went down that road really really young as a young teenager, was all the result of him being abused as a child unbeknownst to anyone.

He was the most.

Amazing, amazing man and with you know, his open heart explained you know, his feelings and his love for me, and but you know I needed his love and blessing and we went through that together.

And you know the rest of my.

Family they've found out. And yeah, I've never been treated any any differently, nor should anyone, And yeah, I think it's something until the same sex marriage was pasted, didn't understand the impact of being able to be married or having that choice, So.

It wasn't something really, I don't think even our relationship earlier that We always said we wanted to have a child like that was very spoken on very early, but marriage was never because I think it was we weren't allowed. It was not an option for us, so we're okay. It was just like it's the times that we live in.

I don't I know think.

I think it's like anything in our relationship and anything in our lives personally, we don't really want anything that's unachievable, like we need to know it's there to grab.

It sort of thing, whereas we just don't know. It didn't allow ourselves.

We never went we're not allowed to get.

Married, or like it was just you just didn't even think about it.

Oh, didn't register.

Yeah, And I think that's why it's one of those things where you do hope that in future generations, and I think we are moving the conversation along at a rapid pace in this last sort of five to ten years. It is something you hope that in the future, gay couples or non binary people don't actually have to come

Yeah, And I think the reason why I came out was I was starting to have to sort of lie, and that's just a massive thing. You know, like a parent or a friend even would say, oh, you know, who's Michael or where are you going? You know, why are you going to see Michael? Again or whatever.

Why are you guys naked in the shower.

If you're having to start lying lying to cover up what is something that is love? Then it was time I had to tell someone. So I did mine in the form of writing my mother a letter and I left it on the kitchen bench. That afternoon, she drove me to the airport because I was moving to Melbourne to live.

With Michael.

With your mate from Footy.

Exactly so. And then and at the bottom of the letter, it's like a three page letter. I wish I had actually kept a copy of that letter, just so that I can reflect on it now, you know, all these years later as to would have written the same thing, And how did I justify it?

Because I don't actually remember, because it would have been.

You know, I would have been quite numb writing, you know, most of it, because I'm like, oh my god, my mother.

You know, I wasn't explicit in it. Let me just I am telling her what.

I was just, you know, Mum, sometimes there are two bees.

I think I made a reference in me that I'm not going to be wearing PVC, just to clarify that. And I wish I wish I had a copy of that letter.

Oh my god, that'd be amazing.

And the very last sentence was like, and please don't ring me in discuss this light.

In the past.

Let's all move on.

And however you want to move on, you know, we never speak of it again. And then of course I get to Melbourne and get off the plane, turn my phone on. It was ringing, like I was ringing as I was holding it on button, and Mum's name was there. I was like, Michael was there. What I hadn't told Michael that I'd written them the letter? You know, we spoke about it. We'd only been dating three months when I moved state for him and he got a train.

And Mum was like, I got your letter.

And I was just like sweating, and I'm like yeah, and she's like it's fine, you know, like I.

Knew, so.

No surprise base exactly.

Exactly as Michael said, parents, I think, you know, they's you know, amazing supportive parents, Like we were very fortunate to both have struggle what to say, you know, because they also don't know what's right or wrong to say to you, you know, like your dad, his intentions were amazing. But some people would read that and go, oh, you know here hear that and go, what do you mean you you just you know, you're hay with it, like it's yeah, it's not an it, it's just yeah, so yeah.

I think also what's really interesting is because when you both did come out, it was a very different generation generally, and it's you know, the kind of homosexual couples have come a long way in society as being normalized and spoken about a lot more. There's marriage. You know, a lot of us have a married couple in our friendship groups.

Yeah, that's y.

I try and educacate myself, like looking at pages like Danny's, and I don't want to get it wrong, you know, I don't want to get you know, you're in fear, and now I understand what people would be would have been like for us, you know, like talking about our relationship earlier on that they.

Were in fear of offending us.

Like I'm not offended by any word you know that anyone accidentally uses if it's coming from you know, a good place for their intentions to offend or hurt someone. But yeah, it's back then too, they didn't have social media. People like to be able to go, oh, I'll reference back to them. They've got a good explanation of what a pronoun is or yeah, I was totally you.

Know, an old man.

You know, I do not understand this, and now I totally get it.

You know I get it.

Yeah, andper important.

So well, going back to gay time, which anyone who is listening who doesn't know, I think I've spoken about this with a couple of people before, but all of my gay friends have this, like let's move in, get married and have babies in like an eleven and a half month period very quickly. I don't know what it is. Is it efficiency? I don't know what it is. I absolutely love it, though, like it's it's it's not even a stereotype. It's just like a universal experience. So you

I wasn't actually working in quantas it was something I'd always wanted to do. Michael had already been there. He started work in Mildura with Quantas got transferred to Lonceston in Tazzy. He was down in Hobart. I just moved back from Sydney. I've been living in and I'd moved back to Hobart and I knew he was a flight attendant. I met him out and I knew he was a flight attendant. I was like, that's something I've always wanted to do. It's a bit gay, but.

I really wanted to be on Like it's.

A self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, asked him a lot of questions about that. That's where a conversation I think sort of struck up. And then he's like, oh, give me a number. I'll send you, you know, some information of people I know in recruitment and the process. You know, it's a pretty full on process to be a flight attendant. You know, you go through several interview stages and what they're looking for, and you know, maybe get a bit of hospitality experience. Because

Financial services and so forth? But I hadn't.

Were you on the plane at this conversation?

No? No, No, this was in this is Danvin Hobert.

No, that would have been so cute, and you're like, hey, he just like slipped in number on a serviette under A.

Yeah.

So then yeah, so we just struck up a friendship, I think very early on, and you know, at every sort of opportunity Michael to come down to Hobart it's like two and a half hours or two hour drive, or I'd go up.

To Lone System on days off.

So yeah, it sort of progressed from there, but it progressed very fast in intense if Michael, look, I would never never move a state for somebody in such a short period of time, but A it felt right, and B Michael had no choice. He'd got a transfer to what he'd always wanted, which was mainline Quantas. So that was, you know, moving to Melbourne. That's what that looked like for him. And we sort of knew that when I met him, because one day I'll hopefully live in Melbourne

And come back home against But I think what you said a moment ago, it just felt right. You know, people talk about that that love at first sight, and I'm not sure if it was love at first sight, but it just felt right, you know, like it was comfortable and connections that was you know, yeah, just very very safe.

You know, we both sort of wanted the same thing, you know, like in the conversations that we had. We were from different but similar backgrounds like our families, but you know, very similar.

Yeah, just you know, honest people, working class, work hard, you know, treat people well. Just just both had that that those common values and goals and our interests at the time or still is you know, like in cars.

We both like vehicles, and.

We both like transports and audio. I also heard that you even spoke about having kids on your first day, like really early.

Yeah, it wasn't more of a like you know, like with each other right now. It was just more about you know, where do you see yourself, you know, as a as a gay man? Back then when I don't think we would have even said to each other as a gay man.

Because we wouldn't.

I don't know, you didn't even talk about it, you know, like it's such a different.

Time that it was more in the context of I've always wanted one to be a dad, yeah, you know, and meeting Jared was like, wow, oh you wanted that as well, Like, you know, that's something I didn't know I could feel anymore because obviously I'm gay.

But that's okay to feel that you want to be a parent, you know, you want that yearning that you know, people say that, you know, women have a lot of sort of feelings that they not feel not complete until they have a tilble. Some men maybe maybe it's that we feel that way sometimes too. But it wasn't that we were going, oh, we're going to have a baby, or let's try and do this.

It was more like, oh, you have that feeling too. I have that feeling. Yeah, you know. It wasn't one day you know, maybe this this, this will be possible for us, you know in some way, shape or form. Probably back then it was more maybe not that's true, but we had a lot to explore and learn and we're on the same page with it.

Yeah, before we continue, you all know, I like to jam pack my schedule and overdo it sometimes, so anything that saves time, energy, or adds convenience to our daily life is a huge da in my books. That makes me so grateful toliver in a time where things like wool Words Delivery Unlimited exist, and the subscription has just undergone some very exciting improvements so we subscribers can reap

No, Look, I don't think i've ever no, no, no, no, I've never got it wrong.

Of course you get you know, girlfriend ringing. You're going like, did you see him at the time?

Do you think he's going Like, I don't have that type of I'm like, I have no idea. Like I didn't even know I was when I was young. You know, I had so I didn't know I was. You know, Oh my god, you had girlfriends? Did you boy friends?

Yeah?

I had girlfriends before Michael didn't have girlfriends. I had girlfriends. I was actually engaged to be married. Oh my god, and you.

Know kids already you have children? No wait, was it Nick, because that's also possible.

No good?

You know young, I moved out at home when I was seventeen, you know, like, which now is mind blowing for you know, the thought of Read moving out of home at seventeen, like I probably still won't let him cross a busy road and it's a.

Dream, you know, without a suit engage.

Which's hats and stopped to slow down.

Signs, which is a you know, bubbles socker like bubble socker, I speak tubble meet you just like push Read to school in one.

Of those those it's when he starts taking himself to school to wear it.

Oh my god.

Okay, So from two thousand and one, fell in love, moved in together very quickly after, but it took nine years until twenty ten when your live changed forever. And I think, not unlike adoption, if you don't have someone in your network or even extended network, who's been involved in surrogacy, I don't think many people know the logistics

Yeah, look, you're correct in saying that it was a documentary on television that we saw of a same set couple and their journey that they had filmed in a documentary style of going to America, you know, meeting surrogate's agencies and right through to them actually holding their baby. And that was before you know, Instagram and all those things. So it was on the television Facebook I think it just started, or there was MySpace or one of those things.

THOMSN Messenger.

Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right.

So we investigated these guys that did it and tried to get in touch with them, and we did so we were living in Perth at the time. We reached out to them and they said, yeah, come over, come over to our house. They lived in Sukilita. We went to the house and we saw firsthand, like a family you know that was you know, I don't ever, like use the word normal, but just like an average family, you know, two loving parents and a child and living,

Yeah, we had purchased an investment for a few years earlier, so we had that sort of capital behind us to think, okay, if we if we you know, really serious about this, we'll sell that and raise the funds that are needed. You know, unfortunately, with surrogacy, not unfortunately, it is a commercial transaction at the end of the day that there is money changing hands, so you've got to feel comfortable with that. We did explore adoption, and you know, it

With were legitimate and they look after.

You know, yeah, yeah that's right, not not taking advantage of people or you know, their their situation. So it's something that you know, we spoke to dozens of agencies and you just get that vibe as this is just all about money and that that's not it for us. That's got to be more than that. So sorry. India is the company that we built a rapport with for about six months. I spoke to them just about every day with a question what about this, and what about

And then you go through all those doubts going like, oh, but when they go to school, are they going to get bullied for having me and Michael as their dad? And those were our bigger burning questions, like, you know, we really want to bring a child into this earth, but we also don't want to give it a bad life, you know, like or challenges that are out of our control. So we did have a lot of fears around that,

So yeah, no, we haven't had one sort of amount of discrimination or you know, dropping read off at kindergarten and all his little kinder friends think it was the coolest thing in the world. He had two dads because Dad's more fun than mum was.

Yeah, Oh my god, that's so sweet, sweet, so lovely.

It's incredible to think that, you know, reads little kinder buddies and school buddies, having gone to school with a family with you know, same sex parents.

It's no biggie. You're still like and even now and you still get questions like, especially now, we've got a little baby in a praym and we're going to a supermarket and I'll give him mom a break, or I'm having arrest, you know, or.

Oh, you're a good dad, you know.

And you sort of choose your audience as to whether you choose you want to educate them or And that's just personally. I know a lot of people that have spoken to especially online, they're like, you know, this happened to me today. So I went off at them, and I'm like, that's your lot. It's just not my lot.

You know.

It's an older gentleman, you know, and he's in the kindness of his heart, he's saying, giving mama break. I can just smile and walk away, you know, like I just you know, smile and acknowledge that he's spoken and walk away, you know. Whereas it's someone that's I feel needs to know.

You know, I will go, oh.

He's actually got two dads? Or where he with this particular child that we've got the moment where.

Where the real dad's have not. You guys are the least likely to ever use that sentience ever. But I think that's a good point as well. I think in anything where difference or uniqueness draws questions or curiosity is to just really distinguish between the ones that come from a good place and out of genuine interest and like wanting to understand better, or people who are doing it out of a place of maliciousness. And you can't fight

I think that's who we are too, especially having a social media account.

I'm not here to educate anyone.

Like.

We pick our battles.

You know, we're showing what our life is and you translate that to how you want to.

That's fine, That's totally up to you.

Did you get to be there when Reid was born? I think it goes to his going.

Yeah, absolutely, we were actually outside the operating theater he was born, and he was in our arms when he was two minutes old.

Still even that, like even when you said we were standing outside, I still can hear, like we were standing outside this door and the birthing suite and they're all cesareans, So it's scheduled, you know what time it's going to be.

It's going to be on this day, and read was early because they were a bit unsure about sort of health concerns. Whilst he was still inside.

Were standing outside that door and had like as a school swinging door, and because we were allowed actually in there, we could see like curtains around, like you could see through the little glass the curtains around. We're like, that's where our surrogut is in there. But the squeak of the door, like when you said that, instantly, I just

Oh, you didn't know.

You're not to know in India. Yeah, I mean more of a cultural reason for India that you're not you don't know the sex of the child, which is good for a couple of control.

For it's really good to have something that's out of.

Out control the general reveal businesses in India though.

Oh yeah, oh my god. I mean your mum had the balloon years ago ready to go, so oh my gosh, so you had him straight away, and then how.

They had the baby to you know, you have a few moments and then they take the baby way to do some testing obviously to make sure there's no health concerns. You're given just basically a large hospital room with we had it with two beds, will bring the baby up shortly, and that's where we stayed for three days with our new baby.

So they it was the most surreal experience. You know, there's I will live him in your little little crib and they're like, you know, what what do you want to how can we help you out. We're like, no, we're good, We're fine, and.

The like change and that like we're good. You know.

So those those first three days where we were just with him and each other twenty four to seven, like it was so special just without also you know, being away obviously, you know, being away from your loved ones and family and friends and being able to introduce him, but it also was such an amazing time just to connect and without any interruption, no pressure about seeing.

Anybody or you know, it was Yeah, we stayed in our vajamas in a you know, in a room with him, and I took so many photos and.

Oh, look at him, look at him.

Oh he's doing this, he's doing that, he's doing nothing.

Yeah he was blinking.

Yeah, exactly what miracle.

Oh he's so gifted. Should we put him in an accelerated baby? But read is actually gifted though, Like what

He's very creative, that's for sure. I think you mentioned before just about not being discriminated against and being very reassured. He's just very safe in he's I was not safe, very comfortable in his own compkin.

When Read was born. There's never any secrets.

There have never been a secret about how he was born. He has a photo of Arch and it by his bed. It's the journey has always been very transparent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's an egg Downer. And I think I had that conversation with you as well, Sarah, like.

Your you know, your your background, where you you know how you became. If it's no secret, it's not like something that needs to be a discussion now because some people like when did you tell him? And I'm like, well, you always always knew, and now we're talked to him about that, you know, going, do you remember when I told you he's.

No Well, which is true because I did. We didn't tell him.

It's just always had been quite open about.

Everything, you know.

Yeah, that was my next question for you guys, was like, the question I get all the time is when did you find out? But I think firstly, everyone in cross cultural situations like this, it's kind of obvious that, like, your child is Indian and you guys are Caucasian. I'm like fully blown Asian. My parents were Caucasian. It's not a situation where you can hide it till you're eighteen.

I think it's just yeah, it was always going to like we're always like that, yeah, And we're really proud of how you know, the journey of sorry, So we're really proud of India as a country.

For allowing us to be parents.

To be parents. Yeah, like we owe them, you know, a lot. It's it's a real privilege. So you know, we'd love his skin color. We love his big deep brown eyes, you know, like.

His eyes are beautiful.

Yeah, super proud of him. And yeah, he's a really good kid.

He's such a good kind of obsessed with him. He's just got such a bright future ahead. Oh my god, those tap dancers. Something that I also think is really interesting about you guys is that often people think in the journey of parenthood, you know, mums changed their careers and mums become stay at home mums or mums you know,

You haven't rebuilt my identity understoodn't know what I'm going to be to grow up.

But nice to add to this because I think you went through Yeah.

Look, I was at that quantas for eighteen years and you wanted to be home more. I was away fifty percent of every month, and you know, you only watched your child grow up once. And I felt that I was not there enough and I needed to be. You know, making that decision to leave was tricky. It came at a time where quantuss offering redundancies, so it was a bit of an incentive to take the money and go and try something new, and we.

Both took it at the same time. The redundancies came up and we're like, I'd been there ten years, mark or at eighteen, and we were like, oh, and I was because I was off stay home Dad, Like, because I got leave.

You guys got twelve weeks of potentially leave.

I've got no, I got two years. The policy change whilst we were at quantisance, you know, us as the same sex couple that were in the same job, they had to look at their policies and procedures and they had to make changes to go well, oh on to end, you know, there's a potnity and maternity.

Leave, like we need to make this more there.

So they were very a very fair employer and honored me two years off, securing my job that I could go back to. But in the shortly after that time, I did go back for a little bit in part time. But again it was really hard juggling. You know, we had a new baby and we were raising that child. We weren't, you know, wanting a nanny or we weren't wanting childcare anything, because this is it's just what we wanted to do. We had to make that call and go, Okay, what's going to happen.

And we don't have family in Melbourne as mentioned, you know, Jared's in Tazzi and Sunstraine coast of mine in Mildura, so it is us and but you know, it's our job to raise this little human. So I took the opportunity to leave and I got into the finance sector, into mortgages, and it was just horrendous.

The year and a half that I worked in that.

Oh my god, I felt sick every morning.

I was worrying, like Michael's way too worried about people's financial situations because we're always so conservative. He would never give me specific details, but he would come home going like some people are just you know, like you know, they're going to afford that more. You know, they're get themselves into that big house that they want. But I think I could lose their job tomorrow and like where does that you know, they wouldn't get that money back on that house or whatever it might be.

I'm like, I was your job to wait. I think I was just so naive to think that, you know, home loans. I thought it was like, you know, selling the dream of you know, home ownership, and not at all, It's just sales and commission.

So, oh my god, this is little Michael coming out the like nurturer Michael, I.

Know, and I just this was not a natural, not natural fit. But I had taken a new job. I had quit a left quarter, so I couldn't go back, and that was that was not an option. And I just felt the pressure of you know, providing for my family. Now that you know, it was my decision to leave. Now I've got to suck it up and just you know.

Go to work.

But with Jared's support, and I suppose I'm wavering, you know, commitment of supporting me and my decision to leave that industry because it was just not.

I mean, it's right for some people. It's not that it was a bad job, but just for Michael, I'm like, you can't tay awake at night, you can't feel sick going to work over someone else's mortgage. This is ridiculous.

It's not, it's just it's that quote that I always say, if it costs your piece, it's too expensive. So it doesn't matter what else. Absolutely, yeah, like it could tick so many other boxes, but if it's making you desperately unhappy, life is too sure.

Absolutely, But yeah, anyway, So, yeah, I suppose from leaving leaving Quantas to you know, getting a nine to five job, which was something that, yeah, I did really struggle with. It's taken me a little while to find the path of something that I look forward to, you know, going to work.

I enjoy it.

But I did spend too much time regretting the decision to lead Quantus. I think you used to go through that low patch of like, holy crap, what have I.

Do and remembering all those amazing times you had, Like Quanus, we're in a different chapter of our lives when we worked for Quantas, you know, like just kids, you know, like you go, we'd be in Singapore. I bought most everything we own nearly came from Singapore. You know, I'd bring it back. I'd spend most of the time in the shopping or partying or you know, we did that for years.

So part of the benefits there you get a free flight every month, so you just go to.

Anywhere you want, just for lunch, Sydney really just for lunch. You know, very different, different lists, So it's hard when you change. I think when you change roles or you're pivoting, is to also remember the whole old picture, not just those moments and going, oh I wish I still had.

That I missed that good time.

It's not going to be that now. It's a different time of our lives now and more rewarding things that you've got to focus on right now.

But our pivoting, I think, like go, like that's you know, believe in yourself and for sure, you know, take that step. Acknowledge that it will be a bit rocky. You know you might not fall on your feet first. Go you give yourself a bit of a break. Don't be too hard on yourself, and it's okay to look back and think, oh God, I shouldn't have left, but don't stay in that space for too long. You know, just own what you're doing and look forward.

That's such great advice. And I also think that you know, the days of like finding a forever job over like, as you mentioned, you were in a different chapter when you were at Quantus and that worked for you, guys, But now you have, you know, two kids in the house, and your priorities change. And one of the things I'd try and really normalize here is like the mini pivot every few years, like your career and lifestyle and house

Yeah, exactly right.

So then, in the reverse pattern to gay time, you work together for seventeen years before you guys got engaged in twenty eighteen. Another gay question, how do you know who is going to be the proposer? Like are you rushing to do it first?

Like how does that? Michael certainly was not rushing.

There was going to be there, just wouldn't it wouldn't be you know, Like I was like, oh, you know, I think I think I'm going I started to sort of whispering it to a couple of friends.

I'm like, you know, I think I might ask him and we'll have a party.

Like it's just a moment about the party, celebration getting everyone together. As daunting as that is too, because a wedding for anyone, not just SKay couples, but like that's when you put all your friends together, all your families and you know, you know, my parents had remarried, so there was two lots of families coming, so you know, all that run through my mind as I was like do I really ask them or do we just carry.

On as you know as thing? But yeah, the urge for a big party certainly was more overwhelming, and I'm like, oh, fuck it, I'm going to do it.

There's no way, like neither it's are overly romantic. I would say, we're thoughtful, but we're not romantic. So I don't think it's something that I thought you would ever do. I don't think, you know, if I'm honest, I would.

With the status quo of you know, we're together, that we're a family.

With you know, we don't.

Yeah, but it was the best thing in recopect. Now it is the best thing. But you know, I wouldn't have popped the question, Oh.

Wow, so that's good then, and so you knew it wasn't like, oh my god, who's going to do it? When so awkward?

I think if Michael had asked, it would have been in the sense of do you want to, Oh, we.

Should probably just do that.

Yeah, yeah, oh my god, I love it.

And so same sex marriage became legal in twenty seventeen, right, so you had a year to plan it, and then it was with balloons with pictures everywhere.

I think, yeah, that's right.

The albums that you printed.

Out from the albums that I've got to hear in the kitchen Covens.

Yes, I just went through because all our albums are everything's in order. So I just went through, turning pages till I got to the next year, and I just pulled one photo out from that and then I just had them all laminated and attached to balloons. And a friend offered their house. I was like, where can I do it. I'll do it here, like I was going to do it here or I don't think we're at this house, but I was like, no, he'll see it or he'll get wind of it happening. So yeah, girlfriend said,

I'm so valible. Like honestly, if someone says, you know we're doing this, or you have to do this, or I'm going here, I just believe everything and everyone. You know, Jaron had some apointments leading up to this. You know, I've got to go and help with this selection of you know, interior design that this person is doing, and I'm like, oh, yeah, no worries.

Or that was me designing our rings, you know, like.

I've got no clue. So but yeah, they had had a pretense that I had to get Jared there because I were going to surprise him.

But oh my god, double surprise thing. I even can't understand it now.

I was just like, yeah, you were.

You were probably like, oh my god, we're surprised exactly.

And I'm texting in the car and he's texting them at the same time a bit different reasons, thinking.

We're getting each other.

And then we walked into Mars like like to me, and I'm like it's no surprise. I'm like, okay, we're here, and I'm like, come into this room and we opened these double doors and that's where the balloons and my mom was like like, oh my god.

The very first thought that went through my mind though, was like, God, this is a bit over the top for our friends giving us an anniversary present. Yeah, I've done that for us to spen.

They love us so much.

And then I realized that it was.

Jared and your wedding was just absolutely spectacular. I mean, I think we got married like not that far away from each other, or I had used a lot of your pictures ass Bo, like your page was just in interest for me, apart from the suits, which obviously I did not wear a suit on my wedding day, but but your changes halfway through and then read sparkly suits.

We did a small wedding.

We had about a hundred guests, but we just wanted it intimate, that fun and you know our secure people, you know, like our close friends, that we could just be ourselves and have be wild and.

It was really it was a great. Yeah, the wedding day was was spectacular, just you know, getting ready with the with the bridal party and we had all life photos down pre wedding so we could be party longer once we arrived there. We're not going anywhere to everyone else goes home, and we mentioned that in my speech as well as like we're not doing the farewell at eleven o'clock and wave goodbye to you all, you know, like we're always going to be we'll laughing.

That was great.

It was a great celebration. The ceremony itself was really beautiful. Hearing Jared's bows was really special. But the having as Jared mentioned the nearest and dearest in the room with us who had played such a part of our lives in Melbourne, and yeah, and followed us from you know, two guys to know our family with beautiful reads.

So it was.

Really a celebration for them as well to thank them for you know, what they've given to us. So, yeah, it was it was unreal. It was the best night of our lives.

Oh my gosh. It looked so beautiful and that radiated out that there was no like you weren't in neither of your bride dialers. It was just looked so much fun, like you were having the time of your lives. And now you tell us about June.

And as you know, we're being foster parent and we were credited about a year and a half ago and through that process you're I don't know whether the word profiled is the right word, but it's you know, what we said all along is we don't whatever we do, any decisions we make, regardless of fostering or not, we don't want to impact on Reed's childhood. We want him

Know, I love it. You're you, and I are just like it's amazing.

Yeah.

We pulled overside the car and they're talking and I could hear it building and Read was trying to be quite act like he wasn't there, and I was just like, I have my phone in my hand, and I just I've got to capture this moment for ourselves. So that will never I'll never shed it online, but just that it's an incredible moment for him and he understands what we're doing, like he understands.

What it is.

It's not that he's lonely and says, you know, I just I've got to have this. He was. He's just like, we're helping a family. We're helped, we're doing something good and doing all the training that you do with fostering. It makes you very aware that you're doing this for them, for the child, not for yourself or for you know, I mean part of it.

See you feel good, But at the end of the game is reunification and that's that's what That's what we're always going to aim for. They hope for that.

You know, the system works, and the system looks after the child and its best interest is where it needs to be, and if that's with us for eighteen years, then that's fine. But if it's not, we can't you say, you know that. One of the biggest questions that we've had online is like, oh, how on earth could you give him up? You know, like us give it up at the end. Well, that's the plan, you.

Know, is that you have been there for for you know, mums, dad's babies, to help them work through the measures they have to before they can be their own little family again.

And you guys are giving little Junior so much love, like watching Read looking after it is just so beautiful. The way he's like taken on this like brotherly nurturing role.

There is a lot you know, and people say, oh, you share your lives or yeah, you share everything online and well I don't. As you know, an instant story is fifteen seconds and yeah, maybe four hours. So there's a hell of a lot that doesn't go online, and you know, a lot of it is approved or not approved by Read. And you know, he nine times out of ten because he's born and bred, you know, into a family that has shared our lives for so long, and that stands. And he'll give me a disclaimer going,

And yeah, oh.

That's so beautiful, and it seems like it's a family decision as well, like no one's sort of uncomfortable with anything. Did you guys consider having another child yourself?

Absolutely? It wasn't until probably I think two years after we had Read is about the time that I noticed all our other friends seemed to have their second child. They seem to have a two year old, and then they have an impact.

And it wasn't really it's a cycle cycle.

Yeah, but it wasn't really something back then that I think. I think we were just so grateful, so happy, and.

We were really privileged to be parents. You know, Read's pregnancy was troubled. I think there were shoes and.

We had discouraged before him, so we had the heartbreak that you know, and Read was a frozen embryo, so we sort of experienced not what other people go through, because to carry a child is incredible, like and you lose a child like that, but some sense of you know, like it's out of our control, you.

Know, like, yeah, we were already blessed that. When Red was born, the doctors expected him to go into like a high dependency unit because his kidneys weren't developing and he was born a month prem and they were sort of thinking that I have to intervene, and that didn't happen. He was born, He was in our arms in two minutes. He was healthy, one hundred percent. Everything that they were worried about didn't come to fruition. So we were so blessed.

We're very lucky.

So it wasn't until just five years ago. Yeah, yeah, that you sort of start to.

Think, oh, I'm getting older, like in that whole you know, you put pressure on yourself going, oh I think old now to maybe look in look into doing this. And then we did start looking into it, and again very very difficult, very difficult legally to.

Do it, and have since changed their laws and the same sex surrogacy is not an option anymore, so that's off the table. And that's when we were at an Australia Day luncheon and somebody looked at us and came up and started chatting, and she assumed that Reid was adopted, and we just got chatting about that and said, oh, my girlfriend has a beautiful charity. They're just starting their own fostering. And we looked at each other and thought, okay, this is it. Yeah, went down the training and the

We wish it was easier, you know, we wish it was even international. Sorry, so if we go to America like, look at the last two years, like the thought of being stuck somewhere, or like how does that all work? That just adds so much more complexity to it happening. So for now, we will just be happy with what we've got, Honey.

Well, I think something else that's really resonating for me over this whole chat is that there are so many milestones in your life, like read and then marriage and then Junior that you didn't even know you were aiming for until they stumbled into your life somehow, absolutely, And I think that's so beautiful because it's left you both with It seems like this trust that let's just enjoy now because like we don't know what's going to happen

I think there's something that we try and still as read. The only thing we can control right now is how I'm feeling right now, you know, so it's.

That's coming up more and more now at his age of eleven, him worrying about out you know the scenarios you know like this, and we're like at the moment, you're in this one. So you know, like whatever that may be, in whatever he's only got yellow wool. You know.

You're in this situation now, don't worry about getting made by wool.

Just chill, just chill. Well, the last couple of questions for you guys are more around the idea of play, which is like, again, like so much of what people probably ask you about I want to talk about is like really serious messaging about inclusion and family and you know, self acceptance and all that kind of stuff. But in between all of that, how do you guys just play?

Rugs?

And that's not a you For me, I.

Think something that we really enjoy together is walking. We going for a stroll, taking the dogs for a walk, taking in a junior in the pram.

Now where we do the most, talking the most because you're constantly like concentrating on each other, put in.

The fine away and just you know, going for an hour's walk is something that we really both enjoy. It's really it's really good for us. Cooking is something that I get inspired with and then I'll be gangbusters for a few weeks, and then I won't want to touch up pot again for another few.

It's like hard and fast, hard and fast.

Absolutely renovating that's a fun thing. We we love doing them. We've done a few houses ourselves.

Because I'm a builder by trade. I left school. My first job was an apprentice carpenter, so.

Oh my god, you're chippy earlier.

So I've spent eight years in the building industry. So when we buy property, we try to do a lot of work ourselves. So that's something that Jared's got a really great eye for design and detail and expensive things to make it look rain in the budget on a budget.

I love that you guys are doing some of your reno's in down on the Peninsula, and I think you posted the other day how annoying it is that you're missing all the hot trads like you keep getting videos of them, but you can't actually be there to purb on them all day.

And then I'm like, oh, the actual trades that are there, Like they know about social media.

I'm like, oh, maybe they saw that.

Yeah, they probably did.

Hopefully they've all finished by the time it's lockdowns over and I don't actually meet them ever.

Have to make them so awkward, so lovely the.

Others a few of them are. Then I heard they laughed.

Yeah, Oh my god, I love that so much. Second last question, which I think you should answer for each other to just like dish the tea, what are three interesting things about you that don't normally come up in conversation. Which is easy for you because this is your first podcast conversation, so it can be anything don't.

Come up in conversation three things about you.

Or just like the people like. The way I describe it is, what would your partner know about you just from living with you, or anyone who like had stayed at your house would know about you that your other friends wouldn't, Like quirky little things that you do, like sing in the shower, or like the sleep eating that I told you about that I do like only people who have stayed somewhere with me know that I do that because there are always packets of food around my head.

Oh god, I really should have That's yeah, this is focused on I actually do share so much of like Michael, you know, like quirks that there's not a lot that people wouldn't know about.

The do you have party tricks? Like it is the like do you juggle? Or are there like weird boring? You're not boring, you guys, you are so not okay, Oh okay, maybe okay. The first one can be like who is the most so who is the most fashionable? Between you?

That's again neither of us. That's definitely definitely Jared.

Jared would like I'll put oh yeah to big whole faith in Jared going shopping for me, no problems at all. He can go buy me shoes, pants, shirts, whatever like that would be fine. I would wear that, no problems at all. But I don't think I've ever once bought something for him that hasn't gone back.

Always have the gift receipts, even.

When he had bag.

I'm like, have you got the receipt because you haven't.

Oh my god. Sometimes I say you want a seat and you say no, and then I have to go back and do the whole bloody pantomime for them as to why I've got this item and I'm bringing it back. Oh my god.

But do you go share a wardrobe? Like, do you ever share a wardrobe? Do you cross over? Do you steal each other's clothes or.

Wade a bit?

So sometimes we do fit into each other cloth, sometimes not. But when every time we get dressed, it's sort of like i'd stand at the bottom of the stairs and Michael has to come and show me what he's wearing, because we can't wear the same thing, you know, like the same the same shirt. Because I'll buy like a pair of trousers and I buy it like four pairs all because they fit well.

And your shirt.

So if there's a shirt I like, I'm like, I'm come home and I wear it for a couple of days, and then I go and buy two more of them because I'm like, when this one wears out, I'll have that. Sometimes our wardrobe is very much like three of the same things. And then it's whilst he's working away it's been good and like take whatever you want, wear whatever you want.

In my home.

It's like we're standing at the top of the stairs going that.

You know, so there's sections right like you do. There's not just a wardrobe. You have your own. That doesn't surprise me at all.

A lot of a lot of ging.

What about if you're on a desert island. What are the three things you would have have to take? Each other? Answer for each other, like, couldn't live without it.

Couldn't live without Michael, couldn't live without a bottle of pinot.

Oh, yes, nice.

I don't think Jared could live without the Internet.

Yeah, he'd take the Internet.

But if there was no reception on that desert island, he would go ape ship Like if there was a technical no what what Spotify? Yeah, if there was no music like no, yeah, yeah, yeah, three things. Yeah, So Jared would have to take the whole of the Internet. He would have to take music. You would have to have that at your fingertips.

The entire Spotify. Also, that's kind of inside the Internet.

That's true. That's true.

I love how your son has like not figured into this conversation.

Yea, the Internet, you, Michael would be his revolting biscuit pillow. Even like we take down to the beach house, he has to take this disgusting. LaTeX's also latex pill latex pillow, but it's like way for thin. I'm like, it's like having the Oh my.

God, that's why you call it biscuits. Literally, I thought you were like a Scotch finger.

Revolting so many like players over just to hide its grossness. His pello and I can't sleep without a I'm like, you lay on it. It's like having no pellow.

So just try now, Oh no.

No, we can't do that. I like, see, these are the things that I love, those weird cloks, like the biscuit pillow.

It's annoying.

And because when we're going down and we go down in separate cars, I don't get the biscuit. It's like you got my biscuit.

Like And also then when you want to like have your photo in the background of like content or something like your bed in the background, and then you've got like one bit fluffy pillow and then this fairal biscuit. Yeah get it. I totally get it. That's just a far buzz kill.

Yeah, it's a turner buzz girl.

You have pet peeves of each other, and you can't use biscuits because you already used it.

Michael's just falls asleep all the time, like seriously, at any any opportunity and a little bit of quietness.

And it's just all of the times.

Like that's why the run took so long to be cut is because there was just knuck a lipsy Like seriously, I'm like, you're sleeping whiles sleeping, you can't possibly.

If there was a quiet bit of time, you know, perhaps reas doing homeschooling, Junior's having a nap. I'll take the moment to reset, have a bit of a nap, you know, even if it's five ten minutes. Jared will take that five to ten minutes to clean something. So going on, he's the one he'll be like, oh my gosh, that that window. Let me clean the window, which is something I'm very grateful for.

We've got a very clean house.

I'm very and tidy. Jared's very pedantic when.

It comes to your procrastic clean services.

Yeah. I've loosened up in the last two years with life.

Had no visitors, so you know, yeah, I'm sure the cushions aren't up right upstairs.

That's because of the fucking biscuit babe. That's very last question, what is your favorite quote.

Look this like I love I love a good quote. I love other people's quotes more than you know, our repetitive one. But the one we seed to go back to a lot is people's opinions none of your business, nor should you make them yours.

I love that one so much and so important now that I feel like the scale of opinion expression has gone up exponentially in the last couple of us, Like it's just opinion central. So I think that's such a good.

Yeah, you know, I respect everyone's got an opinion, whether that be about the current environment that we're living in, but it's none of my business.

Well, guys, thank you so much for this. I cannot believe how long I've chewed your ear off. This is like double the length of a normal episode. But you were just so amazing, so kind and generous, and I love you guys, even more than I did before.

Thank you so much, Thanks so much, and we'll see you at the park.

Yeah.

I really think this is one of my favorite episodes ever, partly because of how exciting it is to sit down with someone who's never told their story this way before. It was such a privilege. They were both so nervous, but they did so well. I often say after these episodes that I just want to spend more time with our guest and be around their energy and just absorb all their wisdom. And the Dads are just like that. If you follow them already you'll know what I mean.