Hugh van Cuylenberg // Happiness, humanity and a cracking sense of Hugh-mour

might have been the case for some of you. So while I initially got cracking and started delivering two episodes a weekly this year that I thought, suddenly, I realized, oh my gosh, I might have been bombarding you guys and had noticed some of you were taking longer to catch up, so that I announced that I was going to take a couple of weeks of just re releasing episodes for Yays of our Lives, so there'd only be

one new episode per week. But I also asked you all to let me know if I was desperately wrong, and quite a few of you sent me messages saying that twice a week has been lovely and a really nice distraction during some really challenging times. So I'm sorry that I was wrong. For those people who think that I was right and who are having trouble catching up. We should have messaged me, because now the voices have

been louder and have won. I will release a re release one more episode today, but then return to the normal schedule from the next episode. I was going to take a couple of weeks of just doing re releases, but I will have a fresh one for you on Thursday. But for now, I've got one more re release for you, which has been one of the episodes that's brought me

the most eya this year. I've actually listened to it quite a few times just for my own personal reasons, because our guest is just an extraordinary human being who brings so much lightness but also covers such serious issues so well. I mean, I've already obviously you'll rehear the intro again, so I don't really need to ramble on here.

But a couple of you shared the episode last week, which reminded me that it had been such an impactful episode for so many of you, and that if anyone had missed out on it, it would be a great time to catch up. So re releasing that one today and then back to the normal schedule, and hopefully there might be a few other reshares in the coming months or weeks, but generally only if a guest drops out, or if it just is yeah, if the schedule gets

too tight off for whatever reason. Otherwise you'll have two episodes a week. Hope you're having a wonderful week and seizing your yay.

will bear all the facets of seizing your Yeay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned funt who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. Cca is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy, and fulfillment along the way. While it does happen a few times in every episode, I'm sure you can sometimes hear when I've forgotten that we're recording for the entirety of a chat because I'm

enjoying our guests so much. You've had a sneak preview of how much I admire Hugh van Kylenberg in The Yeas of Our Lives a few weeks ago, when Abby, Jelmy and I bondered over how obsessed we are with his wit and wisdom, and this episode took that obsession to another level. Hugh strikes the most beautiful balance between endearingly self deprecating and calmly authoritative, navigating effortlessly between hysterical laughter and deep exploration of mental health and personal tragedy.

His family's journey with mental illness is both heart wrenching and heartwarming, and what he has turned that experience into the Resilience Project is changing the world for the better, from classrooms to AFL clubs to wherever you're listening right now. Through presentations, school curriculum events, and his thought provoking book with a second coming very soon. Hugh uses humor, vulnerability, and storytelling to support the mental health of Australians through

the pillars of gratitude, empathy and mindfulness. With cricket references, puns and relatable stories of plenty, he is changing the way we talk about resilience and wellbeing and is quickly becoming one of my very favorite people in the world. Like all our guests, Hugh didn't wake up one day with the clarity of purpose that he has right now and takes us through all the dots that didn't connect

until he looked back years later with hindsight. From professional cricket to school teaching and laying gas pipes before traveling to India for love. Everything about this man is fascinating and I couldn't be more excited to share his passion and energy with you all. I hope you enjoy and laugh as much as I did.

you're definitely on a pedestal in my books. So I don't necessarily expect you to be so down to earth, but you are, and that's what makes your writing so impactful. You can just deal with such heavy topics in such a light and hilarious way.

the best because I'm doing it because I feel. I hope that absolutely everything about me is down to earth. I hope every interaction people having me is very down to earth. However, and I'm going to sound like a bit of a flog from Melbourne here, but when I

get my coffee every morning, I really need it. My order is a strong lat a three quarters full, and if it's not three quarters, I get really upset, Like I just it is extraordinary how often it's like four fifths or like stop it, yeah, it's like fifty five percent. It's not I just go looking and go that's clearly not three quarters, Like you must know it's not three quarters, and I get really upset. I'm not quite the person

who can excuse me if you do this again. It's not three quarters, but I get really upset about it. So that's one thing that's very much just not down to earth about me.

So I think that's a bit that's not down to earth at all.

how I meant to say it. This guy, this guy the other day was messaging me because we wanted to He wanted to catch up about something. I was like, can know as we can do that. I said, I will catch up the coffee. He goes, yes, sounds good. And he said where should we go? And I said we'll go to a coffee and he goes, yeah, mate, totally on board the coffee idea.

You got to know yourself, You got to know what makes you yay and well as you know, the first section of every podcast is your Way to, which is early trace back through all the chapters before the one that we often walk into in your life today, where you know, I think it's so easy to assume that you always had as much direction and purpose and clarity as you do now, But most of the time that's

not the case. We all came from somewhere, through many different twists and diversions, and you have the most fascinating story, I mean, a cricket career to a bachelor of education to India, like so many different dots that connect now with the inside, but that maybe didn't at the time. So take us back to young Hugh Grathorn primary carey Baptist grammar. What were you like at school and how did you you know, enter into your first career aspirations as a cricketer, I.

been your ambition? And I can look back on my life and join the dots and go, yeah, that made me do that. Then I did that, and that made me do that, and because of that, I did that, and now we have the results project. But I felt very lost for a very long time, like a very

long time. I gosh, as a primary school kid, I was incredibly shy, like painfully shy, and dreaded situations where I was going to be surrounded by people that I didn't know too well because I just was like I don't know what to say, I don't know how to talk to people.

were playing Tiggy. We went into the toilets to hide me and some other kids and we're hiding likest of just giggling. I saw myself in the mirror, and I remember, I actually remember this is so we had a moment of going, oh, I didn't think I looked like that. I was like, I'm just so disappointed with a while look that was it. Nine. I was like, oh, damn, I wish I was like I thought I looked more like that.

think I'm a very good looking person. Also I had a beauty. I also had a beauty. My my sisters stunning, and my brother's just the most beautiful man on the earth. So I think that was like glaring, like a big thing for me was like I don't look like and I remember I actually remember Mum saying once and I love Mom, She's amazing and she meant this in a nice way. But I remember Mum saying, oh, sorry, darling. We just got better as we went along, didn't we Because they were like the young.

designed for secondary school. Like absolutely love social situations, very good at sport. And that for me was like, you know, captain everything at the final year of school and having a school all this, like did all this stuff that I and then I and this is the I'm not saying not to show off. But then then I finished school and I went to UNI, and I was so lost, like I was just desperate for recognition, desperate for achievement.

I couldn't achieve anything because there's no people don't sew something into your blazer for doing well at.

I just felt very lost outside of school. And I'm just saying this because a lot of people, I think, look at the Resilience projeck and go wow, like gosh, that's such a big thing now. But for a long time, I had no idea what I want to do. I remember feeling very lonely as well. I'd broken up with my girlfriend from school, who was she was just awesome, loved her. Were a very new classic high school romance, likely together for a couple of years. It was like

so in love. She ended up breaking with me. Breaking up with me, she went to college and was very popular with everyone at college, and I remember going, oh, hopefully we could get back together. And then she started dating an AFL footballer, and I was.

But even that, like we all have psychological needs, right, We haven't need to feel loved to feel like we belong for status and for validation. There are psychological needs. Like we know about our physical needs food, water, shelter. If I took those away from you wouldn't live too long, and our psychological needs are just as pressing. So when I look back on my life, I realized when I left school, I didn't feel like I was getting many of those, like I'd lost my long term girlfriend, so

I didn't feel very loved. I was not being told every day at school I was amazing at sport and popular blah blah blah. And then I shouldn't feel like I belonged anywhere, and so I kind of belonged. Is that a word I belonged?

It was just I went to India because my ex fiance wanted to go there. We'd been together for about five years I think at that point, and she said I'd love to go and travel, and I said, I'd much rather stay in Melbourne because my friends are here and I like playing football in the winter and cricket in the summer. So I don't really know. There's no time I can really go sorry, And I became apparent that she was going definitely, and I didn't want to

lose her, so I went, yep, Okay, I'm coming. And didn't really want to go to India, but her father's Indian, so she wanted to go there. So we went there, and then a few weeks in she kind of said, I think we should do some volunteer teaching, and I was like, I don't know about that, but we'd ended up doing it, and I'm so iowed so much for this, but we ended up in this village of people where like I had nothing like and you've read about this in the book, and I won't go into for too

long because most people probably know the story. But people sleeping on the floor, people you know, know electricity or I had electricity, I couldn't afford to have it switched on, all that kind of stuff, And yet they were the happiest people I've ever met in my entire life. And the whole time I was there, I just couldn't stop thinking about my little sister, Georgia, who was diagnosed with a mental illness age fourteen and are EXI and Nevosa

body image issues. She stopped eating and it ravaged her and it ravaged our family. And when I was in India, I was remembering as a kid, when I was so much as a kid, like late teens, I remember thinking to myself, I wish I knew what I could do to help mom and dad and my brother feel happy again. Like I knew my sister's mental illness was way beyond me. I didn't know what to do to help her, but I remember thinking I wish I knew what I could

do to help mom and dad feel happy. And when I was in India, like literally ten years later, my sisters still you wouldn't say she was totally healthy. At that point, I was there just thinking, oh my gosh, like there's something here, like these people are onto something. They are onto something. And also I think we do a bit wrong back home. I think we're doing a little bit wrong back home. And so I guess that's where the resulience projects started. I lived there for three months,

did everything these people were doing. Came back to Australia and I was like, right, I would love to share with everyone what these people do because we're doing so much wrong.

have to education, and then all kinds of privileges. But I had that same kind of reverse unexpected revelation of like, why is there purer happiness here with kids playing with a leaf for twelve hours and adults breaking into songs spontaneously because they can't contain the joy and their bodies, But they don't have any of what I understood happiness to be, which was success and progress and all those

kinds of things. And it's interesting you worded this in the book as you saw the secret to happiness, And I felt exactly the same way that the secret to happiness was not to attach it to all the things that we think back home it's attached to, but to not have it attached to an and for it to just be in mindfulness and enjoying each other's company and the very very simple things. Yeah, it's almost like having less you can be happier.

feel happy. Whatever it is, there's nothing wrong with all those things, like they're all perfectly healthy things to aspire towards. But I think the problem is we attach happiness to them. But happiness can only really come from within, and we're not going within to find happiness because I think a lot of us are a shit scared of what we're going to find, you know, if we just stop for a little bit. I mean we're so busy, like you look at your calendar, We oh, there's a spare out there,

I'll do this here, I'll do this here. It's almost like we just don't want to be alone, like we're worried about and then when we are alone, we just grab our phone out straight away and we just get lost in our phones. And I think there's so many problems in that, and devices are causing some issues for us. But I just think we've got to get better at just I mean, the things I saw in this village, would you already know about? These people were so good at just focusing on what they did have, and it

wasn't much. But my gosh, they just celebrated like the things out of the river, like they can get water from They had a whole day. We went down the river for a whole day. It was one of my first days there, and I was like, they said, we're going on an excursion to the river. I don't know what are we doing there? They said, what do you mean, what do we What do you mean we're going through river? Yeah, but like what are the activities? What activities are we're doing?

They what do you mean by we're just going to go there? And they weren't joking. They went there for the entire day. And I said, so what's the I said, Oh, we're just celebrating this, like this is we get our water from here. We're so lucky. I was thinking, God, what would the equivalent be in Australia, Like would that be like if we had a day were order celebrated taps like we stopped it just like how good is

that we've got taps? But I reckon we should like how lucky are we to have holes in the wall where water comes out at the exact temperature we want it as much as we want, Like that's amazing, Like if you're in a situation where you have water that comes out of your walls and you can choose the temperature. Two thirds of the world's population two thirds or a third anyway, a lot of people around the world don't have that. Like the fact that you do it, you're

very lucky. But we only notice that when the hot water's not working. That's the only time we go. O fox sake, you're kidding me, he said, we should be going. I like him. I right, this has happened once in a year. Once in a year, I haven't got hot water. That's amazing. Some people never ever get hot water. So I think some people say yeah, But these people living in countries like that, they don't know what they don't have,

so that's why it's easy for them. I mean, the story I tell in the book is that the kids at the first lunchtime said, sir, come see the playground, and I said, love to see a playground. They pointed at this playground. They pointed over their shoulders at the swings that were there was like two chains dangling down. The seat wasn't attached properly, and I thought they were saying, look how bad this is. But when I looked at

their faces. I realized I was saying, check this out, and I was thinking I remember thinking, yeah, but that's because I don't know what they don't have. But then the local high school, which you probably saw in your travels, it's called the tick Say School has beautiful pikerment and these kids walk past it every day. It doesn't bother them. When they get to their school, they're like, well, this

is what we've got. How lucky are we? So I think the more time we spend focusing on what we've got and not worrying about what we don't have, the happier it will be.

they are to have the things that they have. And it's really really simple, A simple word in like the cutest little Laylor Duck accent that brings you back to that idea that we are so incredibly lucky and we take all those things for granted in the quest for more, and I think you put it as the if and when kind of approach to it.

be doing this and I'm going hanging a minute. You talk about this every day, I know what all happen is. I'll get the garden done. I'll be sitting out there and I look around and go, right, what next if we do that. We need to get that, need to get the front garden done. When the front gun's done, then everything's going to be great. And then we'll do

that and I'll go right. A really good mate of mine has got this beautiful place in the mornings in Peninsula, and he's put so much work into it the last couple of years and it's amazing. And he sent you a message the other day and he said, you must be so happy. You sent me a picture of the kids having a great time out in the pool and said you must be so happy. And he said, oh, I'm feel so ashamed. I've gone down the exact path

you talk about every day. I'm started to look at better houses now like I'm now looking at like we need more land. This isn't enough land for the kids. He said. It's ridiculous. Like if someone has showed me a picture of my place ten years ago, I'd go, well, I've got it made. I'm set. We're never satisfied.

story in such an endearingly self deprecating way. As I said, it reminds me of Mark Manson's kind of abrupt reminder in the subtle art of not giving a fuck that not all of us are special snowflakes, and not every kid should get a trophy for every achievement in school. I personally think every child is a special snowflake in their own way, and that you know, there's nothing wrong

with telling them that. But it did make me think about how easily others could assume that you were born with this special vision and clarity of purpose that you knew would positively impact hundreds and thousands of people. But it sounds like the young Hu had no idea what a special thing you'd end up creating so many chapters down the track. So how did it all unravel into what the Resilience Project is today?

things I've always been okay it is public speaking. I've always loved public spaking, like at school, anypportunity to public speaking, I just loved it. And I think it's because when we're in our darkest moments as a family, we would watch mom and dad love Billy Connolly the comedian, and they'd put Billy Connelly on and would all watch him. And I would see Mum and dad like in tears of laughter, which is a very refreshing change from tears

of pain looking at my sister's mental illness. Right, So I would watch Billy Connelly and go, that is the way you make my mum and dad happy. And you know, we all we also desperately want to make our mum and dad happy and to have feel like we have the affection of love of our parents. So I became very fascinated with that, with speaking in public and how that how much joy that can spread. So from a

young age love that obsessed with that. But then I didn't think there are any jobs you could do as a public speaker, right Like I thought stand up comedian. Now I'm not doing that. That's like I'd love to but not quite funny enough. And so I just I don't know watch my job would be, but I always thought i'd like to do that. I went through teaching and had this idea. Came back to Melbourne and a friend of mine said, do you want to speak to

my class about what you did in India? And I said, I think'd be pretty boring, but I'm happy to come and do it. Went along did this talk. I didn't plan it. I just had a few photos to flick through and I'll never forget the look on the kids' faces. I remember she said they're a pretty full on class, so be prepared, and I was saying, that's fine, yea, I'm a teacher. There's no hys. But there was no classroom management in that hour. It was the kids that

are captivated. And I got in the car afterwards I was like, WHOA I am buzzing from that like that was awesome. I remember think I'd love to do that every day, but unfortunately that's not a job going around and telling that's not a job you can do. So I went back to teaching for a couple of years, but I put into practice all the principles I've learned in India with this group of year twelve kids who are a very difficult group of kids to teach, and I saw the impact it had on them. A guy

I knew said I'm starting a business. I'm going to inspect to corporates if I would, if you think you've got something to about, if you want to come and join me, I said, yep, no, rise and that he was a wonderful guy. His names Dave. Did it for six months, but we had no It just wasn't going to work together because I wanted to do schools, he was doing corporate. I didn't quite work out. So then I was like, Okay, now I'm a fish. I joined him, but now it's not happening. I don't have a job.

I'm a fish on my own. I've got to make some money. So I called my old school where I went, I called this carry Then I called the school that I taught at and said, can I come and give a talk? It will cost I think I charged like one hundred dollars I think for an hour, and I remember thinking that's a lot of money. But anyway, hopefully that can play that. And I just loved it. It went so well. I was like, all right, this is me.

This is my full time thing now. And then I started calling other schools and they were going, sorry, who are you? And you? Yeah, so where have you done your talks? I said, Carrey and mild and they went, yeah, where have you done it? There wasn't your old school and where you care it? And I'd go, oh no, you'd be the first. And everyone's like, yeah, come back in a year, let us know how you go. And

no one would have me. I think I did like a talk a month and I'm down to zero dollars and I was like, oh my god, I love this, but it's just not going to work. Like it's just not. But then every now and again i'd get these little wins, like a school. I actually went, can you come and do three talks today? For these three yep, No, I's done speak about this, and it'd be something I don't talk about at all, but i'd go yeap naraws, that's fine, I talk about that, and just sort of just said

yes to everything. I remember one day, driving five hours to I had a student session in the morning in Melbourne. I had nothing on for like a while, but a student session in the morning, and then I had to get to Portland by three o'clock in the afterno it was a five and a half hour drive. Then I had to get back to Melbourne to do a parent talk like a thirty nine of us. I was like, drove to Portland and back in the day and did three sessions, and I just I was like, I cannot

say no to anything. Just you have to say you striving it in. But even then after two years it wasn't enough. I also felt quite lonely because it was me doing it by myself, Like after a couple of years, like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. So I actually applied for a couple of jobs. I think it was a job at Headspace doing something in their school program. I was like, I'll do that, and then I didn't get that job, and I was like, oh my gosh, if I can't get that job like so.

And then I think there was a job at Cricket Victoria, like education manager. I was like, I'll get I'll apply for that. I didn't get that job. I was like gosh, like no one wants me, Like I don't have a girlfriend. I like like, I can't get a job and no one will see me speak. I was so lost. But here's the thing. Back then, I was not oka vulnerability, so I didn't let anyone know. I was like, yeah, fine, loving it. Life's awesome, Life's so great. I wish so much.

At least to my parents, I've been a bit more honest and said I feel so lowly at the moment, like I'm very single and no one wants to have any to do with my program, Like I've just got nothing. Really, But I was to mom and dad, I was like, great, yeah, so many good things happening, which was yeah, yeah, which we all kind of tend to do. But looking back, I'd be a lot more open with and a lot more self deprecating them more like here that things are flying.

I've got no work and I don't have a girl friend, so it's good, you know, Like if we could take the piss out of souls a lot more than we do. But then it just slowly started to very slowly started to I would go from one talk a month to one talk every fortnight, then to a talk a week, and then in two thousand and by two thousand was in two thy eleven I started up. By twenty fourteen, I was doing about fifteen talks a week.

little bit in the story. But it just took off, like it just from the outside it took off. It was a lot of hard work, like a lot of hard work, and I think looking back on it, when people ask what was the secret to it? I worked very hard at something I think I was good at, Like I worked very hard at public speaking, something I already was quite good at. And so I think, if people think I want to do my own thing, have a think about what is something you are very very

good at and does the world need it? Like is there a dollar in it as well? Like there's always a commercial reality of this stuff. So I felt like, yes, there's a need to talk about mental health in a very different, refreshing, lighthearted, kind of not all lighthearted, but accessible way. And I put my blood, sweat and tears, so much tears into this program. But it was something I was I think naturally good at, which definitely helps a lot.

for a long time and believe. And this is when you believe you've got a good idea when people reject it, like it takes an enormous amount of resilience to still believe that you will find people who will be the right people who will believe that it's a good idea. And often when you're ahead of the curve in redefining a way of thinking or a product or a service, you will get a lot of rejections at the start

because it is so different. So I think it's so important to remember that most people who do something differently do face a couple of years often of it not going too well.

and then burn it out completely. And I think those both of those sides of stuff you don't hear about as much in the telling of the story.

care who they are. And so I did that for like three days a week to try and pay the bills while I was trying to make this work. So it wasn't just like swinming around to corporate functions and being a keynote speaker, like and then you finish, like you'd finish a talk, the one talk out for a week and then just like you by yourself. I like my office was my bedroom and I'd go home and go, okay,

that was that cool. And it's pretty lonely, and like as I said, I don't think I've admitted this before any of the chats I've done, but there were there are two or three times I tried to get out. If I got those jobs, like I wouldn't be doing this right now. And this is speaking in Melbourne on last Friday night. I think Abby was actually there on Friday night at at the Convention Center. It's twenty four hundred people and I had him for two hours. It was only meant to go for an hour of twenty,

but I was so good I just kept going. But I was sitting backstage before and Mum said, hey, Mum, message He said, how are you feeling? And I wrote back and said, it's pretty amazing. I'm actually living my dream right now, like this is getting up and standing up in front of an audience like this, this is a dream come true. There are so many times that I tried to get out to not pursue it, and I was heartbroken. So it's funny you just I don't know.

I feel like, I mean, here's the other thing, the other thing you brought up, which I think is really fascinating. His feedback when people say no to and you get told no or you have people giving your negative feedback, and this is I think this is quite a well known set of quote, but like everyone will want to give your feedback, Like everyone wants to feedback, and whether it's people you know or you don't know, and if it's not someone you go to for advice to me,

like I don't give a fuck what you think. I mean, I do. No, No, that's not true. I do. I do give a fuck with it. I don't want to, but I can't help it. But I'm not going to take it on board. So this is I listened to a podcast with Jerry Seinfeld and he said this thing that I So there's a chapter in the book which you would have read a few times now called dealing

with Critics or dealing with Criticism. I come on what we called it, and it was all about how like basically the way we can deal with people saying negative stuff about us, and how we just got to step over and move past it and we're better than it. And Brenda Brown's thing about like you know, let it drop, let it fall to your feet and then step over and all that kind of stuff, and I love that.

But when I listened to Jerry Seinfeld's take on feedback, I was like, gosh, I don't actually live and breathe what I wrote in that chapter, Like I want to. I wish I didn't care what people thought. I wish I was like, well, I don't know. You say I don't care, but I do. And this I've realized it's actually fueled me massively. I've had quite a few people have the journey. You say stuff like, there's another organization in a similar space to us, said to me, we're

already doing curriculum. I don't get why you're doing curriculum. Your curriculum is not great anyway, because we've actually think this is not good with the curriculum. That's not good with your curriculum. Our curriculum is already in school, so you actually shouldn't be doing this. And I was so hurt. This is what happened. I was so hurt. For like a week, I reckon by there. I thought that'd be good people who'd support what I was doing. I was so hurt by it, and I was so shattered by it.

And then the next week I kind of just let that sink in, and two weeks by two weeks, I was like fuck that, Like, because of you guys, I'm going to make our curriculum so much better than yours. And it drove me to our curriculum is now, when we've got three hundred thousand kids around the country doing

our curriculum every single day. I employed five writers to come in and actually rewrite the different elements of our curriculum We've got now, I got a full time lady called Lea who is amazing, who just does this full over. Our curriculum can always changing it, always up there, always making it better. If it wasn't for those people who told me they thought the curriculum wasn't good, it wouldn't

be what it is now. And so I think sometimes you've got to if you're the person who in like, if you care what people think about you, that's also why you're doing really well in life, because it's a nice like. It shows that you're you know, you're a human being. You're sensitive where all can be sensitive. Let it hurt you, let that happen, and then be strong enough to just cop it in the face. And then you a couple of weeks you say, Okay, fuck you

because of what you said. I'm going to make this whatever it is, I'm going to grow because of what you've said. And I realized, looking back, that's what's happened to me. I've been driven by people's hurtful comments so many times. I've got countless examples.

the way who don't believe in what you do. And I also think you know that quote that comes back all the time of like sometimes not getting you want, not getting what you want is a brilliant stroke of luck, the fact that you weren't allowed to get out if you had been, if we'd have been up to you the Resilience Project, we would have all been deprived of

that in the world. And I think sometimes like it's not just self doubt, it's also external doubt that you're going to get But that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea. It doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't a value. It just means that those particular people aren't your people. But if you hadn't, if the world hadn't conspired to make sure that this program came out, you could have easily been toppled and it never would

have seen the light of day. So I think if anyone is in that early phase where they're doubting themselves and have people around them doubting you. It's not the be all and end all. That doesn't mean that you should stop in your tracks, like go and find other people who do think it's a good idea and make those the people that you surround yourself with, and like you said, turn that external doubt into fuel totally, Like

you know, it can be something that fuels you. It's not that you ever want self doubt or overall doubt to go away. I agree. I think it's a sign that you're not complacent and you're invested enough to care about doing a good job and filling an actual gap and providing a good service. But just don't let it dictate your decisions.

Like this is getting ridiculous. Like I was thinking, this is you haven't done this in a year, you will have forgotten how to do this. Who are you to be speaking to all these people? Why have all those people given up a night to come and speak to you. It was like it was so brutal what I was telling myself. And then I'd have those moments of like, shut up, what are you like? This is what you love doing, This is your favorite thing in the world

to do, and now you're dreading it. And then part of me is like you could go home, Like you could go back to the hotel, you could just get in a car and go, and like you're probably saving these people an hour and a half of their life if you do that. So like you're in a critic you can get out of control. So I was especially my wife and I go, I'm not in a very confident headspace right now, and she's like, wellmo'st wrong, And I was like, well, it's not ideal sixteen hundred people

sitting outside waiting for me. Anyway, it turned out to be fine, but yeah, negative self talks, it's brutal.

that's Selfishue. You are depriving the world of a book that they need, which now, as you know, if you're writing a second one, I mean you're gonna have to tell the printer that Abby and I need one print run and everyone else in the world needs another one. There is always someone out there in the world who

needs exactly what you have. So by you letting yourself out overcome you, it's a selfish act because you're depriving the universe of your special skill which no one else can even if other people had come up with the you know, gratitude, empathy, the mindfulness matrix or methodology, like the way you deliver it with your unique you know wit and self deprecation and storytelling, Like even if someone did the exact same thing and use the exact same wording,

they still wouldn't deliver it in the way you did. So by you not doing that, you are depriving the world of something special.

We are in a society where that relentless forward motion and progress and next and bigger is quite irresistible and growing a movement now that is so large, I mean, you sold out the convention center three times over. Meanwhile, you're doubting that you'd even get a couple of people there. What is next? And how do you do you have to resist that it's become bigger than you and sometimes is growing faster than you can control. Or you know,

what are your big goals for what's next? Or are you just happy to sort of let things unravel and see see where it goes.

I just and you've read this in the book, but I really feel like if you properly nail every moment that you're in while you're in it, like really give it your full respect and attention and effort, then life will kind of take care of itself. So I know I write that in the book, and I thought, oh, but I'm sure for a lot of people there's huge benefit in having a five year plan, and I certainly wasn't saying to people, don't go and do your five year plan or whatever it is. I think it's good

to have that. But for me, what works best is just to be good and be as good as you can at each moment. And it's hard, and even saying that, I feel like a little bit of a fraud in the area of my life that I care most about, like my kids. Sorry, oh no, I need to apologize. Like my kids. I need to get better at that, really showing up for them, like I'm running around a country do earliest talk, which is great and I think

one day they'll be quite proud of that. But what they see right now is that I'm not a home enough. And when I am home, like my phone's going berserk, and it's like trying to keep up with his emails and Slack messages and Instagram dms and the penie. A long chat that went out we went out for dinner on Saturday night, and a long chat about like we've got to we need to get better at this like we need to between five and eight, we're just going to keep our phones in the car because we Yeah,

why am I even going down this path? Oh that's right.

area of life. And I was going to ask, you know, how do you find that balance between I came into this because I wanted to teach people about the importance of mindfulness and putting your phone away. There's a whole chapter on social media and how to manage that in your life, but for you to deliver that message, you have to be on that platform, and that paradox is really confusing.

that as you were speaking then. But I think I go through stages where I'm really good with my kids and really practice what I preach, but I do find moments where you know, I'll be seeing the dinner table and five minutes later, I realized I haven't listened to it anyone search because I've just done a talk to wherever it is, Like, I remember, we had an amazing,

amazing forty eight hours of Port Adelaide Football Club. I was just I wasing from when I came home, and it was all about what I was changing about was just like just just enjoy the little moments to pop up because and they're all talking about the moments that they are so lucky to have, so grateful to have, and I was joining in and some really vulnerable stuff

in there. And then I'm seeing around the dinner table with my family and I'm just still thinking about the session with the Port Adelaide guys and I'm thinking about their stories, and I was like, no, come on, like this is exactly what spent for. Like you've been there, You've had that experience. It was great, But these are the people in needgy in most right now, and here you are thinking about Port Adelaide Football Club. So I

think I do pretty well with it. I mean, there's going to be a stage as well in my life where Penny and I have always said that it is so unfair that she Penny's so career driven, She's so intelligent and has so much to offer the world. Right now,

she's offering everything. She has two kids and home, and there will be a point where she goes to work and I'm a full time dad, and so I have that thing in my head at well, like, well, I've got another three or four years to give work everything, and then there'll be a point where it is my job to stay at home and she goes and pursues her career. So there's also that in the back of my mind of like we'll give it everything now, but then these are such beautiful years. A four year old,

the one year old. I mean, it's hard, but it's beautiful. Like it's just like our one year old daughter. This morning, we're all seeing on the couch and she crawled over the three of us. This is like for twenty minutes and kissing all. She'd go mut m and she'd kiss many that. She kissed me and Benji and she gets

Penny and we were just laughing at it. When she's going to stop, and she just kept doing it, do it, And I was like, yeah, we didn't get much sleep last night because of her, But my gosh, this is special. Like she just kissed me twenty times the last half an hour. She's not going to stop, Like we're gonna have to stop it. She can't stop it.

you're missing out. You're the one, she said, because when I was your age and he was and you were his age. My mom said to me, I saw everything you saw. I smelled everything you smelled. I heard everything you heard. I was there with you, and because of that, now I have so many moments of joy. You know. I walk past the jasmine bush and like, I'm almost in tears of joy because I remember when you're a kid,

you're so obsessed with the smell of jasmin bushes. So we go and try and find jasmine together for you to smell. And she said, I have those moments now, but I'm not sure you're going to get those when you're older, because you're not properly living everything that your son and your daughter are living like we used to do. So my aim, and I'm saying this publicly so to hold myself to account, my aim is when I am at home, I am going to properly be there for the rest of this year.

I'm still now kind of resisting coming back to it because it was so freeing to not need to know where you are in time and space and the date, and like it's unrealistic obviously to be like that all the time. But once you kind of let go of your phone, you don't want to back. Like I didn't want it back.

English language. The way that you describe your sister's experience with anorexia, your family's experience around that, and then your wife's OCD as well, and the way that manifest is so relatable. And I think if people don't know quite how to explain the experience to someone who hasn't experienced it, they have no chance of having empathy towards that. But you explained it in a way that I felt made it a lot more accessible to understand as an experience.

And once you understand empathy and you know that it's not you know, her trying to you know, Georgia trying to get attention, or she's not just being annoying for the sake of it, like she actually has a mental illness. I think the whole book just covers it in such a powerful and relatable way. I know it's probably not enough time to go into it, but is there anything you'd like to say about mental health at the moment?

And I know the work you've done in football clubs in particular has touched a lot on how at risk people are these days of suicide, particularly men and how much the Resilience Project has helped a lot of people intervene at an earlier stage, just so important.

moment is so the whole AUOK campaign. It's a wonderful, a wonderful, wonderful concept, and it has done so much good the more that I think about it, though, I mean, they never I don't think their point is to say you need to use the words Areuoka. I think the words iook are a little bit intimidating for a lot of people. And so there's a couple of things I want to say. I think I wrote about Luke in the book, and you would have known the chapter on

you would know the chapter on Luke. A score of my career club who took his own life used to call me every month in the winter and just say Helen. He was an autistic man. He's held on to a cricket season and I'd say it's four months, and he'd go, that's a long time by. And and then a month later, I held a cricket season. It's three months. That's a

long time bye, and he called me. He called me about two weeks before the season started once and said, Helen to cricket and I said two weeks and he said that that feels like a long time for me right now. And I remember I remember thinking to myself, oh shit, is he okay? That's that's a pretty grim thing to say. I was like, he'll probably find a bit awkward if he's If he's totally fine, I say, you're okay, it's pretty bit awkward, I'll and I hung up. I've seen a couple of weeks and I didn't ask

him if he was okay. And then I remember telling Penny and Penny and said, do you want to give him a buzz just check? And I said, I think he's fine. I think she said, well, do you want to catch up? But then maybe catch up with him and just and I said, I'll see me a couple of weeks, should be fine. And two days later I get a phone call from the president of our club

letting me know that he'd taken his life. And I was thinking, my god, my work is mental health and even I didn't say you're okay, like and then I was thinking, oh, this is how hard it is. But this is this is the opposite of having a go at are you okay? It's wonderful. I think for a lot of us, the question is not are you okay? Like the concept you definitely ask people eventually, but the first question is not are you okay? It's like time over with Luke. It's the question is trying to go

a beer? To like, not are you okay? Do you want to tell me? Something? Was because if I'm not okay and someone says you're okay, my response is I'm fine, and then I'll shut it down or I'll just feel like I've somehow made their day worse and I've let them down and I'm a drag on them. So time over the Luke, I would say trying to go a beer and he'd probably say yes, and then we'd have a beer, and then half an hour into talking shit, I'd say how things mate, what's going on, what's the

how things at home? Or what's what's happening with work? Or that's when you start to get little snippets of things where people will let you in. So if you know someone who you are especially at a time like this COVID, if you know someone who you are not totally sure about they just seem to be a little bit more reclusive or potentially not engaging socially the way they usually do. Don't live with a regret that I do that you didn't, and don't say euokay, because I

just don't think the question works. It's what are you doing on Wednesday? Joining to have a coffee? Or if you love were exercise, do you want to go for a walk? Whatever it is, think what that person would like to do with you, suggest it, and then you just like chip away, like and don't do it in a way they're going to go. Are they trying to

check if I'm okay? Just ask them what's good? Like people love telling their story if you think it's something about the kids or their partner, like how's your husband going, how's your wife going and let them talk and just listen to them. And the very act of sharing what you're going through is often all you need to do in order to unburden yourself with a shame you feel that situation. So that's my I know you said you didn't want a long answer, but I've given you a long answer, and.

oh my god, there's Nick ary Walt. And I was seeing next to the player welfare manager who organized the talk, and he came over. He said hi to me. I was like, oh my gosh, he's awesome. And then he said to the player welfare manager. I don't need to be here for this time.

Like I think, I try and rest, but then I try and win it resting, and I try and like a type everything, or I'm like garden and then I'll try and like do a gardening course and become like a gardening influencer. So I really need to just calm down and do things that I'm not trying to necessarily, like improve at or do well at. What other things that you do that make you just forget where you are?

to give it a go. And I've ended up training with Katrina Bissett and the girls who are training for the Tokyo Olympics with Pet of Fortune, Kathy Freeman's coach. He's our coach. And how I've ended up in that

group of girls, I'll never know. They all came and they all came and see me speak at the came and saw me speak at the convention center and our backstage having a drink afterwards, and Penny was meeting them all and stuff, and then one of them said, it is a bit weird that there's this four year old man who chases this around the track.

But we invent the most outrageous games on the trampoline. Like there's one of the moment we have a fitball and we put in the middle and we just call it ballly and the amis is to not get touched by ball. And he goes watch you out for balling and wherever you jump, the ball goes to so you're trying and dodge bally. That's the game of paint at

the moment. Then we put another one last night where you run to the fence, touch the fence, jump on the trampoline, run to the table, touch the table, then jump off a chair and then you just keep doing that. I said, what's this game call? And he said this is called run and touch the table and jump off the couch and then jump into the chair and then John trampline and then laugh and then line on the trampline with daddy. I was like, that's a good nae.

So I'm still very tired, and just her crawling around you, lying on top of you, grabbing all her soft toys. She's such an affectionate person. We're very similar. We're both very very affectionate people. So we couple each other a lot.

take all those boxes. But I think, why lose you're inner child, like we've played forever, and the more you stay in touch with like we take life so seriously, the more you have, you know, a couple of hours a week where you just throw your body around or do random stuff that is you know, not related to your vacation, the better you are as a human, Like I feel like it makes you bring so much better energy back to your work.

favorite things've ever done. But I was at the Master's Championships and I'm watching like eighty five year old men do javelin, And I'm telling you now, the guy I was watching, if he'd just dropped it, it would have gone further than he managed to throw it. Like if he'd accidentally dropped it while he was trying to throw it, it

was like he went half a foot. But he's done his big run up all those stretches, and it's just like topped out of his hand and he's like looked at it and just sort of like hands on his hips, did this like very satisfied not and like his wife clapped him, And I was like this is this is great, like this is what it's played like. It reminded me of the primary school athletics where everyone has a go, like you all do it every house, you have to represent your house in a certain event. It had that

filter it. I mean, yes, I was taking it way too seriously. And I saw my aunt nemesis. I was like, I must beat him, I must beat him. So happy, I was like, this is the most beautifully wholesome thing you could possibly do until I take it way too seriously.

for Mardi Gras. Last year we did Seize the Gay. It's just great.

and go and get it. And my tent mate, Coli on our vest mates woke up at three in the morning and I was standing outside the tent with a full water bottle and I said, everyone's down the river and he goes, shit, really, you know yeah, and he goes, oh gosh. He gets his water bottle and gets out and he goes, no, they're not. Everyone's in their tent and he said, did you just go fill out your water bottle? And I went, I think I'd scratches all over my legs from like push bashing through the river.

We got there the next day. It was so hard you have to have someone holding you into the river to like get the water out, and I went and get it by myself, like sleepwalking. So that's so I'm a prolific sleep walker.

and I drank milk and I was. I was fine. And so I was allergic to water. It wouldn't kill me, like it just I just get really sick and really run down and like just basically go to sleep when I had too much water. How weird is that? Again? So that's something I've never said out loud to an audience like.

tears in my eyes the second I saw it. So the quote is, let everything happen to you, beauty and terror, just keep going. No feeling is final.

stick and it was just stuck on my shirt. I couldn't get off, and she goes, that's a bit sticky, and I couldn't, Like, I couldn't stop giggling for the rest of our run, on like half an hour and so fast we could talk for one time because I love a good punch.

the show notes. As usual, I am always so proud when the neighborhood showers our guests with love for sharing so generously with us. So if you enjoyed or took something away, please share it tagging at Hugh van Kylenberg. Get the spelling from the episode title and us, of course, so we can reshare. Hope you are all having a wonderful week and are seizing your yea