A quick content warning before we begin that this episode does touch on heavier themes than usual surrounding criminal investigations and cold cases, so please do take care when listening.
The strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial evidence that we've found, is that there is I think a reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle, in the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney.
Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives They adore, the good.
Bad and ugly.
The best and worst day will bear all the facets of seizing your Yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneurshs walped the Suits and Heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar.
CZA is a series.
Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt challenge, joy and fulfillment. Along the way, I've discovered that the problem with being an excitable person who always uses excitable language is that I leave no superlatives in reserve for when something truly blows me away. But I think most of Australia and a lot of the world in fact, at least sixty million listeners, if
not more, will easily grasp why. I'm pinching myself that our guest this week is none other than Headley Thomas, national Chief correspondent for The Australian and creator of globally acclaimed investigative podcasts The Teacher's Pet, Shandy Story, The Night Driver and the currently ongoing Bronwin. Those sounds and his delcet tones likely need no introduction, but I'll give it
my best shot. It's in my nature to find every human and story interesting, and so I love all of our guests on this show.
But I do have a.
Rolling list of dream guests who I never think I'll get, and Headley Thomas has been one of those since twenty eighteen when he literally changed the landscape of criminal and cold case investigations with The Teacher's Pet, leading to the murder conviction of Chris Dawson for the previously unsolved disappearance of his wife Lynett Dawson in nineteen eighty two.
You all know that while.
On this show I'm all about the ya and bringing the joy, my personal guilty pleasure has always been at true crime and there is possibly no more influential person in this space than Hedley. You can imagine how nervous I was in a way I haven't been in a long time to interview such such a renowned, articular Gold Walkley Award winning journalist, wanting to do him justice, to explore his incredible work, explore a bit of who he is outside of that work, as you know we love
to do on this show. A father, a lover of cows, as it turns out, a fan of white lotus, and ask all my burning behind the scenes questions about the Bronwin case and what it takes to solve long overlooked crimes. Basically, we need a whole headly series on CZA and spoiler alert, there may be a follow up to this episode that we're working on in the background, but for now, I tried to whittle my questions down to things not exhaustively
covered elsewhere. So we do assume some baseline knowledge of his cases and prior podcasts, and skate over much of his fascinating pathway and all the chapters that came before podcasting, which I highly recommend you go on research because it's a fascinating journey. He's worked on so many incredible stories in his career, and of course I'll include more links in the show notes. I have so much more to say, but I know you're all waiting to hear the voice
that so many of us know so well. I knew Headley would be eloquent and fascinating, but I really didn't expect him to be quite so humble and warm. We actually even had a forty five minute debrief call the next day when he was on a long drive to a new lead in the Bronwin case, and he just talks to you like you're an old friend. This was truly such a life highlight for me, and I hope that you guys all enjoy as much as I did.
Headley Thomas, welcome to Seize the A.
Thank you for having me, and I'm sorry for my technical stupidity in getting sorted at the start.
Not at all. I mean, I have to tell you. You know, when people ask if you could have dinner with anyone in the world, dead or alive, and people always say Obama and Princess Diana, mother Teresa, I always say Headley Thomas.
So this is very surreal to me right now.
Well, that's very kind and it's surreal for me to get that kind of feedback. I have to tell you, my adult children think it's crazy when people sometime say, oh my god, I listened to all your dad's podcasts, and they're like, yeah, we haven't caught up with them yet.
It's so funny that kids will always humble you so much, and it's crazy to think that you have, like you have children and a family and tell us what you were doing when you first logged on. I thought you'd be off doing something crazy, but it was such a wholesome Monday morning.
Yeah, I've been up since very early helping my friend Ken clear lantana. This introduced weed has been infesting our paddocks, and my wife's gone to work, so I thought I'll just go in there with the machete and the peak and the maddic and pull out these clumps of lantana to clear for the cows. We a couple of cows and their pastor their grass is diminished when the lantana spread. So that's what I've been doing this morning.
Oh my goodness. I mean, one of my favorite things to do on this show is to zoom out from people who we have parasocial relationships with. I think we know quite well. But I'm sure that is not what anyone thought you would be doing to starty your week. And having said that, my answer was you about the dinner question. I also always answer Headley Thomas when I'm asked about in interviews about my favorite podcast or what I'm binging. And I'm sure most of Australia, at least
most of the people I know, also answer that. But You're probably the only person in Australia who would say not Headley Thomas, given that that's you. So before we get into the juice of today, to give us our listener something else that they might not already know about you, What does the great Headley Thomas listen to? Are you a true crime listener yourself? Do you have a favorite podcast? Do you binge TV?
I've been binging a bit of TV, actually, John, I must admit that after I've listened to hours of draft episodes of Now Bromwin and previously Shandy Story and my other podcast. So when I've finished with that, I think I just need a break from the audio. I do listen to some history podcasts and I find some great stuff about Australian history with the ABC and a couple of independent podcasters, but mostly I look for escapism in Netflix or Apple TV and Stan and all of them. Actually,
White Lotus has been no one captivating us lately. We were recently in Thailand because we had our honeymoon in Thailand thirty years ago, so we went back a few weeks ago for a wedding anniversary and our children joined us there as well, and we went to the same
resort that we stayed in. We used to live in Hong Kong and went from Hong Kong to Pouquet in nineteen ninety five when we were married, and you know, White Lotus of course the latest season has been filmed in Thailand, and then going back with our children now almost twenty seven and twenty four and just thinking, gosh, you know, we're still together and we're still really happy.
And my wife was a journalist and she's now a nurse, and she's always been a fantastic supporter of everything I've done, and our kids are fantastic too, so we feel very blessed. Well.
I love that you sort of spoke to that idea of going back to a place where you were in a chapter in your life that was, you know, before everything, and reminiscing on that, because one thing I love about podcasting is that every episode you do is like a time capsule of the person that you were back at that time.
So I would usually.
Start every episode by going back to your childhood to young Headley to remind our listeners that everyone, even Walkley Award winning National treasures like Headley Thomas starts somewhere, namely as a copy boy at the Gold Coast Bulletin, and I think we you might find this with your children, that you know, there's an intense pressure today to find your purpose and find success, but it's very normal to not know where you'd end up. But this time I
have to actually start in the reverse. I feel like I have to start in real time with Bronwyn because you're in the middle of season three with some new developments just this week that we'd shuffle this around for so I'm not sure what you can tell us exactly, but my first question really is how are you feeling right now? What does it feel like when the cadence of what you're working on ramps up?
Yeah.
Look, I feel that with the Bronwin investigation and the information that has been discovered through the podcast and through listeners getting in touch with me and with members of Brombin's family, I really believe that we should be and the police should be, at a tipping point in terms of action, and that if there isn't action as a result of what has come out, then there's something amiss in our criminal justice system because in my view and
in the view of other very experienced people, including experienced lawyers who have followed this evidence closely, there is a serious injustice in Brumlin's case. It has been an injustice for many years. There's potential to correct that injustice right now because of new information and new evidence and new
witnesses who have come forward. And we wait to see whether the authorities and by that I mean the police and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions will do what we believe is the right thing here and if they do not, then I think there should be very serious and searching answers coming forward from those agencies in terms of why not. You know, it won't be good enough that they just did a bat it and
say nothing, because we need some accountability. If there's going to be nil action from here, I'll be and the family, more importantly, Bromwan's family will be deeply disappointed. A by wanting wanting explanations, I mean.
We'll come back to the sort of impact of investigative podcast and a lot of what you have to say and how you've shaped the relationship between the media and the police and the authorities in criminal investigations. But I'm going to assume a lot of our listeners are up to date with the Bronwin podcast. I don't want to waste too much time on what they can catch up
on elsewhere. But just quickly, you're investigating the disappearance of Bronwin Winfield in nineteen ninety three, and it took her husband eleven days to report her as missing and she's
never been found. I think we're at episode thirty and actually later today, I think it'll be episode thirty one of what you thought would only be six to eight episodes, and we're currently waiting on a very important determination submitted by Bromwin's brother Andy to the State Coroner about potentially where her body may be, So can you tell us about that?
And we we're up to yeah, that's right.
We're at a point where we seek from the State corner of New South Wales a determination after Andy wrote to her and it was about a nine page letter drafted by a very experienced lawyer who has dealt at length with coronial investigations in the past for the Australian government. And Andy's letter asked the coroner to please use her powers to perform a search of a property in the Southerland Shire where Andy has grown up, in a place called Illawong. And that is because at a certain address
in Illowog. And we haven't revealed the address in the podcast because we don't want to bring unnecessary distress to the current residence. But almost thirty two years ago that address in Illawong was a building site for a family home. John was working as the brick lay on that site. His boss was a builder called Glenn Webster, and Glenn would end up living in that house with his family
after it was completed. The reason we're very suspicious of that building site is because John made a very hasty overnight trip from lennox Head. John Winfield, being the husband of Bromwin and being a person who knew that he and Bromwin had split up, he wanted to do everything in his power to retain control of their house in
lenox Head, near Banana. But when Bromwyn, according to John, left the house that night, John packed his children up, threw a few things in the car and made an overnight drive from lenox Head to Sydney, about a nine to eleven hour drive. It was highly unusual. It appeared to be what lawyers regard as flight, as in just urgent, unexplained almost fleeing a scene. The police believe that John was fleeing a crime scene. John has always denied wrongdoing.
The police position is that John probably murdered Bromwin in the house that night. That's what it comes down to.
That's the allegation that John has always denied, and the strong suspicion we have now because of new circumstantial evidence that we've found, is that there is I think a reasonable possibility that Bromwin's body was in the vehicle in the boot of the vehicle for that drive to Sydney, and that John went to the building site which would have been deserted on the Monday, which was the seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three, and right where two areas
were being prepared for the pouring of concrete slabs, a patio area and a garage area. John, if this theory holds, has put Bromwin's body beneath the reinforcing steel that goes down and the plastic just before the concrete goes down. One of the reasons we're really suspicious, well, there's two in particular that are reliably new. I was told by an informant who saw John on the Monday and he was very flustered. He driven overnight and he said that he had to be back for a concrete poor, a
concrete poor in the Shire. Another reason is because we found documents from the Southern Shire Council, the council that was responsible for building approvals and for inspections of building sites when they were due to get a concrete poor and at different stages of the construction of a house. We found documents that showed that the council's inspectors had come out just days before Bromwin had disappeared to inspect the pre poor site and give the green light for
the concrete pour to occur. So the concrete pour must have occurred within days of that and John has rushed back, but he didn't need to be at a concrete pour. Glenn Webster has confirmed that there was no need for John, as the brick layer, to have been involved in the concrete poor. There is also some timing issues in terms of John's whereabouts, and his movements for several hours on
the Monday were not explained. When he was interviewed by the police, he left out some crucial details that could have led police to question more closely what he was doing in the afternoon, and he left out the fact, for example, that he took his two daughters to his ex wife's house and left his two daughters there for several hours and.
With her mother in law who they never met, wasn't it, Yeah, which is very unusual.
That's right.
I have clearly been following along with my whiteboard in the office.
Yeah, I'm glad you're right on it.
So we don't say and I believe that you know, we've taken this as far as we can in terms of how we've described the circumstances in Elolong. We don't say that Bromwin must be there, but it's a site
that should have been searched. The detective Glenn Taylor, who did more work than anyone else through the investigation of what happened to Bromwin, Glenn Taylor, he says very clearly that if he had known what we have found at the time of his investigation, he would have gone to the coroner and requested that that site be searched, and he believes that the coroner would have granted him the order.
There's a few other details, including that one of Crystal's friends has described how Crystal told her that her father, John said, do not look in the boot under any circumstances. Do not open the boot. Now you know these sorts of details. They are concerning, and John didn't have a lot of time. If the coroner's view that Bromwin died on the night of Sunday is true is correct, he
didn't have a lot of time to dispose of a body. Now, it's really difficult talking about it in these terms because it sounds like we have absolutely made up our minds that John must have done it, and he still has as a presumption of innocence. So it's a really tricky thing to describe in these terms, and I have to keep stressing that John has denied wrongdoing. He's never been charged with anything. Although a coroner has recommended that there be a prosecution of John Winfield by the Office of
the DPP, that hasn't happened. There is nobody and there's no forensic evidence that connects John to his wife's disappearance and suspected murder.
Having said all of that.
There are powerful, circumstantial pieces of evidence that in our view, demand new attention from the Office of the DPP, because it does, when it's all put together, make for a very compelling case.
I mean, I think I get sort of the same goosebumps, the similarities at a certain time in lynd Dawson in the teacher's pat's investigation of where you weren't drawing conclusions necessarily, but you were uncovering things that were missed originally and looking at under concrete and it's more eliminating possibilities rather than necessarily saying what did happen. It's exploring things that weren't investigated at the time, and again a missing woman
with decades in between. It's just overwhelming the power of what you've been able to do to fill gaps that were not investigated at the time. And I think, as you said, it is a tipping point. Waiting for this determination about whether or not you can proceed to eliminate this particular site will be a huge new step in
where you're at. But I'd also love to just while we wait on that, zoom out a little bit to go behind the scenes and see the stuff that probably listeners to Bronwan don't see as much, which is in between all these episodes. What does your life look like mid season? So, as you mentioned, you are sort of eliminating options that weren't investigated. You are You're not in
an office typing, you're draining lakes. You're wrapping colleagues in sheets to investigate the body in the boot and the timing. And someone asked, I think in the listener episode you did recently, do you have whiteboards and pieces of string
tying them together? How are you organizing your information? I know it's not a full time team, so you know, I hear Claire Harvey's voice on the front every day on other materials, I'm like, how is her brain even dealing with the multiapasceted things that you guys are all doing, so you know, you're turning around episodes in real time, Like whats are behind the scenes of building Bronwen right now?
Look Like yeah, Look, it can be pretty intense at times. And it's only because I'm going to be fifty eight in you know, month and a half, I have had a lot of experience writing under pressure and with deadlines, and just because I've been a journalist for you know, pretty much the best part of four years, I think that I've been able to manage the stresses that would ordinarily be just overwhelming in a way that makes us able to knit together and every week still be able
to produce the episode. And my small but perfectly formed team of colleagues, you know, we all come together in such a I would say, cooperative and practical and good humored way. And they're not working with me full time, but when I need support, you know, they are there.
They step in and I sort of sometimes think, well, if we had a much bigger team, if we had more time, would we get better results, would there be a better production, And perhaps there would be, or maybe there's something in the fact that you know you give your best when you're under pressure, when there's only a limited amount of time left. You've got to write ten thousand words in a day and a half get it produced, and that's when you know that your brain is really
firing and you can give your roll. You're exhausted as well because it is grueling and demanding stuff, and then you're very paranoid at times that you're going to make mistakes. And I've become a bit of a stickler for the detail and making sure that everything is factually right. I hate it when there's something wrong or something that might
have been misunderstood. And I feel like the way we've all worked together and the quality of my colleagues and the professionalism means that we make very very few mistakes. If we do make an error and it's discovered, a listen might point out something, or we'll realize after the fact, we fix it and re release the episode. It might mean snipping a line or narrating a new line, but we just try and fix it up and so if it's wrong, it's not wrong.
For long.
I feel that I've got just such a rare opportunity to make a potential difference thanks to the support I get from my friends and colleagues, the listenership that wants to help people who've come out of the woodwork with great ideas and offers to be involved, offers to apply their own knowledge or information they've gleaned from their job, their profession, People who would happily work for free to help solve these cases and make a difference. And you think, gosh,
that's amazing. I mean, how lucky are we? And I get many many emails from people. It takes me sometimes a little while to apply to everybody, but I do try to apply to everyon so that you know, I can thank them for the help that they offer and often take it up because it is a big help.
Well, Hadlee, I actually started out as a commercial lawyer, but criminal law was always my sort of pro bono passion. And if you had been in podcasting back then, I might have been another carena volunteering her time with you, and perhaps I would have lasted.
Longer in the law.
And yet here we are two podcasters with two gold Walkleys between us, both being yours, but there is still an average one age. But one thing I think that is really interesting just coming back to the impact of what you're doing and the ability to make a difference, which you have well and truly shown that you have
actually changed the course. I mean the Teachers pet changed the course not only of Lynn Dawson or Lynette Sims and her family and Chris Dawson and the result of that case, but really the face of crime reporting and you know, cold cases Australia, white and worldwide. But you know, we often say on this show, you might end up in a job that you didn't even know existed, and that's part of the path where you don't need to
know how things end up when you begin. When you won your first gold Walkley, the word podcast had only been coined like maybe two and a half years before that, so I'm sure you had no idea that this would end up and you've almost created the industry that you're in. This you called it crime reporting in a recent episode, but I actually think it's crime solving. You've gone beyond just sitting reporting what's happening to actually getting into the
guts of a case and filling gaps. Really in whole investigations. Trailblazers in an industry like that often face a lot of skepticism. Now it's easy to say, look at the teacher's pet.
Look what we did.
I'm sure the cases like Bronwyn are coming up and the resources are coming you know, they're free flowing now the support of the Australian of Harvey Norman was it a really hard sell the first time.
I was passionate about investigating what happened to Lynn Dawson, who we now refer to as Lynn Simms. And because of the support that my editor in chief in the past had given me with good results, he understood how much I believed in this case and I made a very powerful submission as to why we should dedicate months of my time full time to it and also all of the resources that it would require in terms of
other staff. But you know, it was a risky thing for us to take on at the time because we didn't know what the outcomes would be, except that we knew there would be eye watering legal bills.
And it doesn't surprise me.
They continued for years because after Chris Dawson was charged with his wife's murder, both Chris Dawson's legal defense team and the officer that Republic Prosecutions wanted to have an insight into all of my correspondents and my emails and text messages with people involved in the case, as well as more than one hundred gigabytes of audio and other material that was on my laptop, So all the interviews that I'd done and interviews that I'd attempted to do,
and you know, probably more than one hundred hours of material.
I don't know.
I've never actually added up the duration. I felt sorry for the poor people who had to listen to it all, because, as you know, you could record for two hours and maybe only use ten minutes of audio from an interview.
I mean, the people who did get to listen probably felt like they got the director's cut of the Teacher's Pet podcast. I wouldn't listened to all that extra material. I'd do it for free.
That's really cool, that's very cold.
We took enormous risks, no question, we went out on a limb a very long way, and I was criticized by some in the legal profession and certainly by at least one judge who heard Chris Dawson's application for the whole process to be permanently canceled stayed as the legal term, and his argument was that he couldn't get a fair trial, that I had also, with all of my interviews, effectively contaminated Crown witnesses so that their versions of the evidence
couldn't be relied upon. He also argued that the police investigations were so sloppy and had missed so much material early on that he wouldn't be able to prove his innocence. He wouldn't be able to demonstrate his innocence. He had all of these arguments running, and I thought, well, we've got to get through so many barriers as part of his application before there's even a murder trial. We have to effectively go on trial ourselves and demonstrate that we
didn't contaminate witnesses. That it is perfectly appropriate after the disappearance of a woman who's suspected by two coroners to have been murdered, and if nothing has happened, and the criminal justice system hasn't responded in the way that we believe it should have been, it is perfectly appropriate for investigative journalism to step in. Who else is going to
the family had run out of options. This case looked like it should have been dealt with many, many years ago, and in our view, it was disgraceful that the police hadn't done a better job early on, and that others hadn't been able to pick up the pieces for many
years later. So I feel that we had to stare down the criticism and try to explain from the perspective of the expectations of victims of crime, and also the duties of journalism to shine a light on crimes that have been unsolved and cases that might still have a chance if we're able to apply the podcasting techniques and investigative techniques to try to draw new witnesses who hadn't spoken before out, and then the police could interview those witnesses.
The contaminated witness argument that Chris Dawson ran fell over In the end. The judge who heard this day application said that he could get a fair trial, and his own lawyers ultimately made no submission that any of the witnesses had been contaminated. But it was a rough period and I didn't know which way it would go, and I would be lying if I said I was unconcerned.
I was really concerned because I felt that if we fell over at this point, if Chris Dawson's day application succeeded, then it would be not just a terrible blow to Lynn's family and loved ones and all the people who help me, it would be a major setback for investigative podcast journalism by others, by younger and also experienced journalists who wanted to do more of what I had started to do. Would they be able to would they get
the support of their news organizations. If this effectively campaign that we ran in the Teacher's pet ended up being condemned and led to the charges against Chris Dawson being terminated, it was a difficult time.
I mean, I would call that sort of the great cost of bravery, or of the cost of being the first to do something in the face of great obstacles and traditional legal institutions and media institutions, and the skepticism that you face, and extrapolating that for our listeners, not all of whom are probably operating at your level of influence in a global wave that involves the legal system.
So intimately, I think we all do face moments of doubt externally, internally, moments of extreme obstacles to doing anything new and different, and that's part of getting outside your comfort zone and making change. But it has come at an extreme personal cost to you. And I used the word bravery because I think it is extraordinarily brave that you have taken the weight of investigative journalism as a whole, and you've faced gunshots in your house and death threats.
It's not just sort of trolling and haters, but it's personal safety. It's extreme hostility from people in the public who are invested in this, and also probably people who aren't invested in it and still just for whatever reason, placing judgment on you as a person. Have you ever wanted to give up? I mean, I know you even you left journalism sort of in two thousand and eight. I mean this was before the Teacher's Pet chapter. But in your career facing barriers like that, have you ever
wanted to give up? Have you ever been sort of overcome by the negativity of the subject matter domestic violence, the moral quandaries that come with the truth.
The closest I've ever come to leaving journalism was in late two thousand and two, early two thousand and three, and it was after the shooting at our family home in Brisbane, my children were threatened, my wife was traumatized. I was in I think a state of shock and then ended up having post traumatic stress from it. And you know, I felt that up to that point I had been striving really hard with investigative stories and important.
Cases that needed to be.
Aired, and then an unknown government put four bullets into our family home. And we lived in a rural part of Brisbane semi rule, and it was a knight, and the bullets could have caused a killing. I mean, the person who fired them was not shooting at us in terms of, you know, he couldn't see us in the house. He just wanted or she who knows, just wanted to put four bullets into the home. But you know, one
of those bullets went through the bedroom window. Our bedroom window just have been less than thirty centimeters over my wife's pillow. We were in bed, and another bullet went into the children's toy room. Now they were asleep, they woke up. My daughter woke up screaming because of the noise. And then for weeks afterwards, the police were making multiple investigations and inquiries and following up people who were featured in some of the stories that I'd been writing at
the time, and they were stumped. They had no idea because the list of potential suspects was long. I gave them some idea, probably just made things even harder for them, because I don't know whether I was on the money
or not. But for a long time afterwards, I couldn't actually manage my own emotions when people would ask me about that shooting, and I would have what I later understood was a sort of a PTSD response, where you know, if you had asked me in say January two thousand and three, a few months after the shooting, if we were having a chat and you started talking to me about the shooting, you would see me here and I'd still be trying to talk to you, but my eyes
would be streaming tears and they would just be rolling down and I wouldn't be able to turn it off. It'd just be like this water works event. It was embarrassing and really distressing, and it happened in interviews and social events, in work meetings if somebody just asked me a direct question about the shooting, and suddenly the brain just goes into this unusual stress response, and I would just start streaming and I just would have to excuse myself and I didn't know how that was going to end,
would it resolve? And I got some help, and that help was instrumental in making sure that I remained in journalism and with my family, got through it, recovered, stayed in our own home, so we didn't let you know whoever had done this evil act defeat house. Our children loved where we lived, and we loved where we lived. We'd only been there a few years, having moved back from Hong Kong in nineteen ninety nine, and I think that was important. I think that we had to stay
and stare down the risk and the challenge. But yeah, I definitely through the low points before I got some psychological support, good advice on how to deal with things. That was when I could have left journalism and stayed out of journalism.
I mean, yeah, coming back to the idea that no pathway is linear or without twists and turns and backward steps, and I mean, in this case trauma and a great personal cost to you to continue the work that you're doing. It does just highlight that it's not easy for you to be doing something so impactful. But I love hearing about you speak about what it means to know the
impact of what you're doing. That you have gone from yeah, not knowing what podcasting really was when you were still, you know, quite far into your career to now, I mean it's millions and millions of listeners, to just this season alone, brand new witnesses, Judy Singh coming out of the woodwork that would never have been uncovered without you, and really unleashing the power of an investigative tool for
society that was not there. The police resources cannot uncover everything that the power of the media and the Internet and the platforms that you have can now, just coming back to a personal connection for you, I think I read that your own grandmother had gone missing. Do you think that that would have been different if podcasting and investigative journalism had been around back then?
Wow, that's a really interesting question. I haven't been asked that question before, and I hadn't even thought about it.
Really, Yeah, Hadley, I think I can retire now. I was so desperate to ask you something you had never been asked, and I thought that's going to be impossible for.
I can stop recording now.
I'm good yeah, I mean, you know, it kind of would tick the boxes in many ways for sorts of cases that I look at. And it's diffical for me to talk about it because I adored my father, who died in twenty seve seventeen, and I didn't talk a lot to my dad about the disappearance of his mum because I knew that it could upset him. He loved his mum and he grew up on Sydney's Northern Beaches, not too far from where Lynn disappeared. My grandmother disappeared
in nineteen fifty six from the family home. Her night dress was found on the beach at d Y. I have a little clipping from the Sydney Morning Herald that describes the disappearance and quotes a police officers saying that this piece of clothing had been found.
On the sand.
My grandmother had some mental health issues. I believe it must have been depression, and she was suspected to have swum through the breakers at d Y and just kept swimming until she drowned. No trace of her has ever been recovered, but I know that my dad for many years looked in crowds, and this is what people who have lost a loved one. Do do I believe that there was foul play involved in my grandmother's disappearance. I've been asked that question, and I do not believe that
there was. But I'm fairly sure that if it hadn't been for that event in my own family, my father's life, I would not have felt the affinity, and I don't think I would have had the same kind of almost mission or zeal to do the Teacher's Pet. I don't think I would have had the understanding of what it means for people like lyn, sister Pat Jenkins, and brother Greg Simms, and all the other amazing members of Lynn's family who helped me. I wouldn't have understood the ambiguous
loss that people have when someone disappears without explanation. And I didn't disclose in the Teacher's Pet or anywhere in any media interviews what had happened in my own family because I felt that it wasn't really well, it wasn't at all relevant to what I was investigating in relation to Lynn. But it was this very powerful force, a private force for me, and it was I think at
times propelling me. And I wasn't vicariously investigating my grandmother's disappearance, but I was revisiting places that my dad and my mother went to, and while I was running around the Northern Beaches talking to Lynn's friends and trying to catch up with former school students of Chroma High and going to Bayview and so on, I felt like I was, in the same year that my dad died, connecting with him and my own grandmother through This sounds a bit weird,
but I just felt like that I was making a bit of a connection while investigating an evil act and at the same time reflecting on my dad's life and my grandmother's life. And I kept the two things separate in terms of the story until I wrote a book called The Teacher's Pet that was released in late twenty twenty three, and I went into what had happened there. There was a little bit of seepage in so far as in an email that I had written, a private email that I had written to Rebecca Hazel, who was
helping me with the Teacher's Pet investigation. You know, I had mentioned that because Rebecca was a great support and help and we became really good friends and we remained great friends, and I just disclosed to Rebecca this event in my family's history that I felt gave me a better insight into some of the things that were going on.
That email was turned over. I had to turn it over to Chris Dawson and his lawyers, and his lawyers were one of them, no doubt, on instructions, copied that email and released it to journalists during one of the preliminary court appearances, and spoke to journalists about how this event was somehow newsworthy and fortunately it didn't really get much traction, but it is, to be fair, a pivotal event in my family's history that has unquestionably made a
difference to the way I perceive these cases and what I want to do and how I try to go about them. And I have written and I have said before that I'm pretty confident if it had not been for the disappearance of my father's mother, I don't know whether I would have done. I don't believe I would
have done what I've done. And I suspect that the memory of what happened or not the memory of what happened I didn't I don't know what really happened, but the knowledge that that had happened somehow helped me do those eighteen twenty hour days and back up for another one and another one, another one who gave me extra stamina and that allowed me to push through.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Hadley.
It's funny.
I think we always talk on this show about in much less probably deep episodes, just the idea that people's journeys the dots always connect in a funny way. And I think this is your version of those dots connecting to me, and you ended up exactly where you were supposed to, even if perhaps you didn't know that that's
where you would end up when you began. And your extraordinary empathy that your person no connection to having missing persons, that you bring to the podcast, I think does allow listeners who have no connection whatsoever to that kind of story or experience to get a small taste of what that feels like in a way that we can't have, we have never experienced in any other kind of documentary or journalistic piece, which makes people want to come forward
with evidence they have. I think it's created something that wasn't there before, which is truly extraordinary, And that brings me to one of my last questions for you. We talk a lot on this show about the definition of success. There's so much fixation I mentioned at the beginning, so much fixation on being successful and fame and wealth and the way that it often changes throughout your life what
that means to you. And I think your definition would probably be different to any other guest we've had eight Walkley's two gold I don't even need to ask you to know that that's probably not why you're in this or what your definition of success is.
What is it for you?
And if you don't get an answer or solve this case with Bronwyn, I mean, in the Dawson case, I think there was a very very successful result. What if you don't get that result here, how you feel in terms of success?
Yeah, okay, I'll it's the first part first, because for me, success is about trying to achieve results, trying to right the wrongs and reverse the injustices and expose the appalling failures and the wrongdoers wherever possible. And also I hope that you know that is a legacy that will be something that other people will say I might be able to do that, and I can do it better and if I have more resources picking up the model that Hedley was doing, then maybe we can change more of
these cases for the so leaving something behind. I'd hate to have had a career in journalism where at the end of it and then you know, I've sort of prepared to go into retirement. I've looked back and thought, did I do forty years of journalism or forty five years of journalism and make no difference, or did some people benefit from some of the journalism at least some of the journalism that I've done, And so that's part
of the motivation. I think that you can do that if you are true to yourself and if you have the support of colleagues and an employer who allows you to really push the boundaries. And pushing the boundaries as we have done in these investigations means taking big legal risks that can be costly and require a lot of
courage of the organization that is sponsoring me. And in terms of how I would feel if the Bromin investigation really goes nowhere in so far as the police and the DPP is concerned, I mean, I would just feel bitterly disappointed for Bromwin's brother and sister and good friends and others who have pinned their hopes on something changing here. But more than that, I think that I would, and I hope many listeners would be demanding answers as to
why it doesn't go forward. Some people have a right to be angry if it doesn't go forward, because there is in our system a reasonable expectation that strong evidence. Even in a case that'll be thirty two years old next month, that's strong evidence, new evidence as well. It takes a case further really should motivate those who make decisions about what to do with the case that a Curner recommended should be prosecuted, and that was back in
two thousand and two. You know that responsibility remains, it doesn't go away, and that's what happened in Chris Dawson's case as well. So I hope that that people won't give up and persistence does pay off. You don't just stop because the story has come to its end. I feel that there's still more that can be done. And you know, I don't want to be almost like an obsessive.
Crank in terms of we're all very grateful that you are an obsessive crank.
It's done wonderful.
Things the world. It will be stubbornly determined to keep going. Yeah.
I mean, it is quite an unusual position to be in life where your job really is something that you started thinking it would be eight episodes long, and you actually don't know how long you're going to be on this. You don't know where it's going to go. That uncertainty is quite unique and fascinating and exciting and overwhelming in so many things all at once. But knowing every day that you're on it is impactful in a way that's gotten further than the original investigation ever did.
Is incredible.
I could do three seasons of Headley, the Man, the Myth, the Legend. I wish I had as much time as would allowed to ask all the questions I have for you, But I will finish on one that comes back to the title of this podcast, that sees the yay. We talk a lot about the meaning of success, but then more importantly the meaning of joy and what brings you
yay in your life and being involved. Twenty four seven and I'm sure even when you're not working on your mind is a very heavy case of a disappearance, potentially a murder, talking about bodies.
Where do you mind?
Joy?
In your life in the midst of that kind of subject matter. I know there's a lot of humor in the team, and you guys are great at lifting.
Each other up.
How do you And for anyone else listening who does work in sort of a heavy field, how do you find yay?
I get yay from a couple of really simple things, and to spring to mind, because I've been getting the ya from those over the last twenty four hours. Filma and Louise beautiful cows.
Oh my god, I thought you meant actual Velma and Lloyd's the cows.
I love cows. Oh my gosh, that's the best.
Cows are the best looking.
The coastal track cows of the Sunshine Beach to Loosa heads with my wife as we did yesterday morning.
That was awesome.
And Okay, here's another pleasure that takes little effort. Body surfing a nice wave at Noos Sir Or Main Beach on the Gold Coast where I lived as a teenager. Just taking off on that wave and getting slightly rolled and dumb then.
Jump from back up.
It makes you feel like you're fourteen again.
And I love doing that stuff.
Oh my gosh, Hedley, what an amazing way to finish a wonderful answer. I am so grateful for your time, knowing that you are in the thick of the investigation and we will be all I mean Australia, the world will be following so closely with what happens. It's funny I heard in one of the episodes talking about how you're famous, someone said on a plane to you that women around the world go to sleep. They go to
bed with Headley Thomas every night, which is true. That must be surreal, but we will continue to do so. Your poor wife, my wife.
Has some head shaking moment.
The sultry tones of Headley Thomas. You should do like a sleep audio book or something.
I've actually thought about that.
I've wondered whether that could be my post podcast career, doing voiceovers or even endorsements for a mattress.
Make it means I got so many people in this belief.
You know, people instantly anywhere in the world, anywhere on any screen. If I heard your voice, we'd know, You'd know. I'd be like, is that Headly Thomas in Italy selling Fanta? Like we know it was you from miles and miles away.
It could be my part time manager on something like that and giving a few geeks.
I would love that you just wait.
Let's seal the deal at one of your dinner party.
Yes, it sounds wonderful.
Thank you so much, Headley, and thank you for everything that you are doing for for I mean really women everywhere, being the father of daughters, changing the landscape for women who go missing and face real injustice at the hands of the system and people around them.
Thank you for everything.
Thank you for you very empathic and insightful questioning, and it's been my pleasure.
I just loved every minute of this chat, as I'm sure you could tell.
I hope some of you guys did too.
But I also ended up with a million more questions for Hendley by the end. I found it so hard to pick the questions I really wanted to ask in the hour that we were so lucky to have. If you're as much of a fangirl as me, of course we have the questions enough to fill an entire series on Headley. So I am pinching myself to say that Headley has so kindly offered to do a follow up chat, which may or may not end up happening live and
in person. For our Melbourne listeners. It's been so long since we did a live event and I actually can't fathom that we might be doing one with the great Headley Thomas. We're teasing out the details, but I will keep you all posted, so do stay tuned.
It was just so surreal to chat to a voice you've.
Known for so many years, and I can only imagine how many of you would also be keen to ask you more person and to meet him bought an experience.
Still can't believe I'm saying that, So yes, stay tuned.
As I mentioned, links to further materials on all of Headley's work are in the show notes and in this episode. More than ever, we would be so grateful if you could share the episode or any materials on Bronwin's case, as if you are listening, you'll know new leads could come from anywhere and it does remain unsolved in the meantime.
I hope you enjoyed listening.
I hope you have a wonderful Easter break ahead and are seizing your yea