Finders, SEEKers // Kemi Nekvapil

I think for so many of us we wait until that final moment where it is so devastating for us or our relationships or our health that then we think, oh, now I need to go, and we don't need to wait that long Stephen our Covey that says that we get to the top of the ladder and then we realize either it was the wrong ladder or the ladder was up against the wrong wall.

bear all the facets of seizing your Yea. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned unentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. Sez the Ya is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Lovely Yighborhood. I'm so excited to present our next mini series in partnership with Seek. It's brought me so much yea to mix up the format and zoom in on

particular facets of seizing your yea. So allow me to introduce Finders Seekers. You've all heard me rave on and on about how life unravels in many different chapters, and how the most uncomfortable, scary changes in our lives are usually the most transformative and exciting. One of the many silver linings of an otherwise undesirable few years is the opportunity to clear the slate of habit and obligation to

actively seek those changes you've always dreamed of. And there truly is no better time than now, with more jobs around than ever before, but less applications per job ad driven by a shortage of candidates. The great job boom is upon us, and yet forty five percent of ossies are worried their skills and resume won't stack up against other Aussies. So in Finders Seekers, we have a host of amazing guests, from coaches to entrepreneurs to help kick those nays to the curve and turn them into ya's

by making your next move today. I am thrilled to welcome Kemmy neck for Pill as our very first guest who returns to the show for the second time, and how lucky are we to have her again. If you've ever heard Kemmy speak before, you'll understand why she is one of my favorite people to chat with. You just can't leave her presence without feeling enlightened, empowered, and truly inspired.

Go back to episode fifty to hear her full backstory, but to quickly recap Kemy embodies the idea of the nonlinear path yer, spending her childhood with five different foster families with as many different careers following, covering stage and television, acting, professional baking, and yoga teaching, all this before finding her calling as a speaker, coach and author of two brilliant books,

The Gift of Asking and published only recently Power. Consider yourselves very lucky, yebahood to have an hour of Kemy's time. Her coaching is highly sought after, and if you've ever been considering making a change towards seizing your yay, she is a woman you need to hear from. Without further ado, Kemmy neck for pill lovely Kemmy, welcome back to the show. It is so wonderful to have you on. I think this is your second time. Now is your third? No second time?

but also as a coach. I feel so very lucky to have you here, So thank you so much for joining.

identity and our value. And yet I know for myself that any of the changes that I have made, especially the hardest ones, they have always been worth it. So yes, started off as a baker when I left school, went from baking into acting, went from acting back to chefing, then went from chefing to yoga teacher. From yoga teacher to mother, which is one of the biggest changes and

pivots for those of us that are parents. From mother to becoming a business owner, then from a business owner sort of becoming an entrepreneur, and then now as we speak, an executive, personal coach, author and speaker. So that's my portfolio career of change to this point. Oh and as

you know, I'm also stepping into the world of flower farming. Yes, yes, so that is another level of change, you know, and I'm happy to go further into that because anything, you know, I have no idea how to be a flower farmer.

And yet I think, because I'm a coach, I know that I don't need to know how, and I'm aware for myself and for my clients of those same reoccurring feelings and questions that we have when we're stepping into something new, or when we're leaving something that we're very comfortable with.

do we need to? And what are some of the things we can expect when you are upon a change, like whether it's I think it's interesting that you distinguish between changes that happen to you, which can force you to learn to embrace the discomfort of change, but then also the fact that you can choose those changes as well, which we'll get into with some statistics. What do you see as the most common barriers to change? Is it fear?

Is it comfort? If it something from your book that we'll get into as well, was learning to make yourself small, doing the right thing? What do you think of the biggest barriers.

within the realm of what you're talking about. So that idea, especially for people that have spent a long time training in one particular profession, it can feel like I have spent seven years in law or ten years in the medical environment, like am I going to throw all of that away to now start something new? And what I end up exploring with those clients is you don't throw away seven years of working within that industry or ten

years within that industry. You look at what are the skills that you've had within that industry that you can now bring to a new and day. So I think we forget what we have learnt along the way, and that actually a lot of employers are now looking for people that can bring certain skills. They're not so much looking for what was your training, It's like who are

you and what are the skills that you bring. Another one is definitely when it comes to gender, So with women, I think we all know the statistics that if a man sees a job ad and they feel that they can do sixty percent of the job. They're like, yep, I'm in. I'm the one. It is me and a woman that needs to feel that she has to be one hundred percent all of the boxes in that job

application before she applies. So that is definitely an obstacle for women that we feel that we this internal critic or this internal voice of I'm not smart enough, I'm not old enough, I'm not young enough, I'm not good enough, i don't know enough, constantly going around in our head. And I'd also say that we have somehow been I don't want to say lied to. Let me just say that the societal structures that we have around jobs is

this idea that change isn't an expected thing. But actually we've always been part of change because we're humans and we live within seasons. For those of us especially that live in places that have seasons, we have spring, summer, autumn, and winter, and we adapt and change with every single season. As human beings, we are actually geared toward change. I just think we forget it.

of my favorite statistics to share. But I also learned a new one recently in the context of this particular mini series, which is that all of those factors combined have led to sixty one percent of Australians not wanting to change jobs in the next twelve months, which alarms me because I think of the terrible couple of years we've had, we've also had an amazing opportunity to clear the slate. And when nothing is certain, you know anything

is possible. You can choose really to do anything you want. We've kind of had the chance to stop the momentum of habit and stop the momentum of obligation to choose. You know, where we want to be and what we want to do. So having said all that, you have yourself gone through lots of different changes, and I think having read you've just released your third book called Power and very aptly a Woman's Guide to Living and leading

without apology. And I think one of the things that comes with the self doubt and everything is our conditioning, our societal conditioning to make ourselves small to do what other people expect of us. The quote that you shared in your introduction was the most common way people give away their power is by thinking they don't have any. So for you personally, how has that played out for you?

How did you give away your power earlier, miss out on some of your biggest pivots, and then how did you learn to break that down to do all the changes you have so far?

human beings, we are geared towards change. If anyone has been through any form of lockdown, if you have been locked in your house, on your own or with family members, there is not much that you cannot do, you know, Like I think we forget the resilience that we've also had to build over the last two years, and that we can be resourceful around that, So I just wanted to kind of put that in there in terms of look at the skills that we have gained in the

last two years. So much has been thrown up in the air. This is actually a perfect time for some people to think, well, you know, that's all happened, I might as well just change it up now. But in answer to your question, yes, so you know, as women,

we give up power all the time. We have it taken away from us all the time, and we're strategic we give it away too, you know, we know, oh, okay, this is the best time for me to kind of just step back and play small, to be good, to not say the wrong thing, to not use my voice. And yet we've seen in so many different arenas around the world that when women do step into spaces and they share their story or they share their experience, it

gives other women permission to do the same. And it's the same within the job market.

made up in our head about that goal. So, for an example, let's just say that I am currently working in finance, but I want to become a graphic designer. I have already decided, well, none of my skills in finance have anything to do with graphic design. I've decided that I have to go back to school for another four years. I've decided that people are going to be

ten years younger than me. You know, I've just made all these decisions, and yet I haven't actually gone on to a website to check what does it take to become a graphic designer? Do I need qualifications? Can I just set up my own website and start asking family and friends at first and have a little bit of a side business before I leave my main role. Or do I want to apply for a company and they're

happy to train me up as I go. I think we have to be mindful that so many of us stop ourselves because we think we need to know how before we move forward. And what I have found in my own personal life and in the experience of my clients, it's the commitment to change is actually what then sparks the how.

for my career, but I knew two things. It wasn't making me happy, and I enjoyed playing with food more than I did standing on stage seven years. So I thought, even though I don't know what I want to do for the rest of my career, I do know that I'm happy to play with fruits and vegetables for a

little while until I figure it out. Like that was it, And the reason I got to that point was because I had decided eighteen months before I actually left acting that I wanted to And as those eighteen months went on, I got unhappier and unhappier and unhappier and unhappier. And I think for so many of us, we wait until that final moment where it is so devastating for us or our relationships or our health that then we think, oh, now I need to go, and we don't need to

wait that long. Yes, but in some ways I say that, though, but I'll also say that I did need to get that unhappy because in my head I was like, but what my parents think? They want me to be financially stable? I have a job that so many of my peers would want. What a lucky position I'm in. I should be grateful for this, you know, I had that going on, but ultimately it was like, am I happy? No? So am I showing up as a good actor? Am I

wanting to be with my colleagues? They were great people and it was a great job, but I wasn't feeling it. So that was when I knew, for me, there is someone else that would love this opportunity, and you've had a great run for seven years and it's time for you to get uncomfortable. But I didn't have support from many people around me, and that was hard.

you're in. And the other thing you mentioned that I love is that it took you to get particularly uncomfortable, and so for me. I don't necessarily worry about people who are desperately unhappy, because I think you do inevitably get to that stage where it's too much and you leave. I worry about me in the law firm, who wasn't unhappy, but I was settling. And I think you don't have to settle. You can get to a point where something that is what everyone else would dream of isn't necessarily

what you dream of. It's okay to walk away before it gets bad.

think this series is such a great idea. It's that when people start to share their stories of change or their experience of change, and maybe they sort of fell over a few times and then they picked themselves back up or somebody else picked them up or whatever it is, you start to realize, oh, okay, so I just need to kind of, you know, put my handle on the door and begin to open it, or I just need to put my foot in and then after that I'll

take the next step. But you're right, it's when we just think, well, I know the door's there, but I just have to make sure I'm wearing the right glove, and that you know, I'm the right weight, and then I've got the right dress, and that I've got the right you know, qualifications and all of these things until I open the door, and then we die and the door never gets opened. And we live at a time now, especially with what's happening with the global pandemic, where we

are expected to change and grow. And I think that's one thing we miss is that as human beings. And it sounds cliched, and I do believe in cliches. I think that's why they became cliches.

was last year at this time last year. I hope that I've changed and I've grown. I've learned things, and I've made mistakes and I've learned from those. But you know, we should be growing. So the career that we chose at eighteen, if we're still doing that same career like quite a few years later, You're right, we're kind of stagnating. We're just kind of sitting in this world. This is

what I know, I'll just stay here. And yet the job market has changed so much now that we have the ability to go, Okay, I'm going to step into something different. You know, I'm now ten years in this career. I'm now seven years in this career. I'm now thirty years, twenty years, and I think I've built up enough skills to know what I want to know the value that I bring, and I'm ready to open another door.

are more jobs around. It's the great job boom. It's the perfect time to take advantage of this. But something that's really interesting about what you mentioned about moving away from acting when it was really you were at the pinnacle of that ladder within that industry, and that's that you jumped without knowing what you were jumping to. So on top of the fear of change, there's the fear of the unknown change. There's a fear of like could it go wrong? Financial security, I think is a really

big one. As you mentioned becoming a mother. You know, we're not in a vacuum. A lot of people have children who there dependents. You know, they've got obligations. There's so much to keep in your mind as a concern when you don't know what the next step is. I'm sure you see this with your clients all the time. How do you kind of talk people through like I know that the book is so methodical in the way

you lay out the five power principles. As a way to take control in those situations, live up to our power rather than give it away. How do you move people through those fears and uncertainties but encourage them to do it anyway, because you don't want them to miss all the chance for this unique cultural phenomenon. You don't want to look back in ten years and think there was no better time to do that.

doing auditions in Hollywood? And that was when I think about it. That was a time when I realized I don't want the next level of this. Yes, because that's the other thing is And it's Stephen our Covey that says that we get to the top of the ladder and then we realize either it was the wrong ladder or the ladder was up against the wrong wall, and I just knew, Yeah, there's your quote.

Is it still the right ladder? If it is fantastic? And I'm going to segue with ladders now, I'm quite toughed with myself into what you said around people taking the leap. So this is a really interesting thing. And in some ways this is a difference between being a coach and being a consultant. So it's important for me

that I don't have an agenda with my clients. They have an agenda and I am there to support them, but I am very open to their agenda changing, and my job is for them to really understand who they are,

not who they think they should be. So what I might say to a client in the situation where they want to move from one profession to the next, or look at a promotion within the industry that they're in, whatever it is, I will say to them, would you consider yourself to be someone that is happy to look at the edge of a cliff and just run for it and give it everything and jump off and you just trust there's going to be a mattress at the bottom.

Or are you someone that wants to go to the cliff, look over, see how far down you have to go. You want to take your time to find the perfect wood to build the perfect ladder that you're going to climb down when you're ready. You've sourced your mattress, it's all eco fibers, it's ready there for you, so that

when land, it's there for you. And I think it's very important that we under and obviously there are gray areas in between, but it this kind of gives peop a little bit of an idea because some people think they should jump and as you say, when there are actual financial responsibilities. It can be hard for some people to jump. They're like, that doesn't feel responsible for me, And that's kind of the fifth power principle is responsibility. They may think it is not the responsible thing as

a parent to just jump. But I am willing to over the next six months or over the next six years, work out and exit plan, or start looking at jobs and maybe have some interviews so I can start to see what is out there and where my skills are now relevant at this time. So understanding who we are as we step into new opportunities and new job opportunities is really really important.

so it has to be right for you. And that's also why the entrepreneurial pathway is something I wanted to emphasize a lot because of the great job boom that some people are terribly suited to running their own business. Some people really wouldn't thrive in that scenario. And there are so many people who I speak to who have maybe even more potential for creativity and growth within a

company than they would outside of it. So do you find with your clients that you get like an equal number of people within a corporate structure as you do in business? Is a bit of both. Do they face similar or different challenges? And is your advice the same?

the industry and that idea of giving away power. So maybe for an entrepreneur, someone hasn't paid, you know, a supply, hasn't paid something on time, and they're too scared to follow up because they think that they may not be liked even if they have given the service and everything that they may think, oh but they might not like me. They might think I'm pushing. I'm like, no, they might just think that they need to pay you the money

for the service that you gave them, you know. And then in terms of court put it, maybe that a woman has spent I've worked with her for a while to get into a particular room, so let's just say that's a particular leadership level. But then once she's in the room, she then has this fear of actually speaking in that room. So then it's like, so, what does power look like for you? The second power principle is ownership. It's like owning that you are in that room for

a reason, and owning that your voice matters. If it didn't, you wouldn't be in the room. You know. The corporate structure in some way so systemic that no one's in a room by accident. You're bare for a reason, so why would you not capitalize on that reason. So in some ways, yes, it's the same in that we're always happened to look at what our internal story is. But they're dealing with different day to day challenges in those environments.

don't like confrontation. I like to keep the water smooth. I liked everyone to be happy, and I mean obviously sees the a I want yay joy like rainbows and love, but sometimes that's not going to get you anywhere.

assertiveness to put themselves forward for these new positions, whether within a company or between jobs or industries, assertiveness versus feeling comfortable that you're not tooting your own horn too much. Like there's such a hard matrix and fine line between assertiveness and likability, particularly for women. There's owning your power,

but being humble about your power. There's just so much much like, how do you encourage people to drop the self doubt but still navigate not pushing too hard or not not being themselves either because you know, I like my seizing my power is a lot less assertive probably than the next person because I'm like a bit softer, but I still you know what I mean, how do you help people find that nice middle ground.

do something in a particular way. And when we look at it like that, it means we all have power in different situations. And what I'd like to share because I really don't give advice as a coach, but I

do share stories. So just to speak to what you just said, something that just came to mind is that when I would go for auditions as an actor, I knew that when I walked out of that room, even if I wasn't chosen for the role, that I didn't have a conversation in my head of oh I could have been more like this, Oh I should have been more like this. Oh I should have been more assertive. Oh I could have been a little bit more, because that's just what I call eating your brain like, it's

just exhausting. I wanted to be able to go in present myself as myself who I was at that time, in my early to mid twenties, and you know, read the scripts and do what they asked of me. But that once I walked out of that room, I was like, Yep, you showed up. You showed who you were. You know, you said you might if you're nervous, you say, I'm really nervous being here today, or I can't believe I'm here today, or you know, I would just share who I was with them, and when I left, I couldn't

be any more or any less of myself. I think once we start to, as you say, the shape shifting, we're actually starting to manipulate the environment and the people in front of us. We're trying to make ourselves more of something so they will say yes to us. But what happens if we're not really that more of something and they've hired that more of something and every day you go into work, you have to bring the thing

that isn't actually you anyway? You know that is Yeah, you're not even getting on the ladder then, because then you're already starting with a manipulated version of yourself to get the yes for a person that you're not. And it gets very complex once you get into that kind of work environment.

Plus the numbers are on your side in March. Job ads on sequel up thirty two percent compared to the same time last year and fifty one percent compared to pre pandemic levels, but job applications per job ad are down forty two percent compared to pre pandemic levels. So there are more jobs but less competition than ever before. So if you're looking to change Pathia's head on over to seek and take advantage of the great job boom. Something else that I think you have really helped me

with is that idea of rejection. Like in any situation where you're going to be putting yourself out there for newness or growth opportunities, it will almost unfailingly involve quite a few no's before you get a yes. Sometimes the nose are because you know the universe is redirecting you towards a thing that is actually suited for you. Sometimes you won't know the reason why you've got to know.

But if you have come to that opportunity with everything that you are and nothing else, then I agree you walk away from the rejection going, you know what, that wasn't for me, Because if I came as who I am and it didn't suit, then it wasn't for me. It still hurts, it's still uncomfortable. Yes, how do you coach your clients and relating it back to the idea of the power dynamic in that suite situation through rejection to get to the yes, that is the one that's meant for you.

I doing this? So this is hard, but it's not as hard as being in a professional in a job that is sucking the life out of me and has been for the last few years. You know, like, yes, this hurts, I need to call a friend, I need to do whatever it is I need to do. But that actually, I'm going to get up and I'm going to get back out there again because my life is important to me. And when we think about how much time we spend at work, it is so important that

we craft a life. And that's the thing about responsibility, that is, it is our responsibility to craft the work environments that allow us to show up and give what we have to give. And if we're not taking responsibility for that, there's nothing wrong about that. As a coach, I just call that feedback. We'll just find ourselves in default careers, living to the expectations of other people, living

to the expectations of our bosses. And you know, I've had quite a few people say to me that they basically looked at the boss that was above them or the big boss, you know, the CEO, and just thought, hmm, do I want their life? Oh, that's the ladder moment. That's the ladder moment again. It's like I'm climbing a ladder, But when I look at the person at the top

of the ladder, is that what I want? The way that they speak to people, or the way that they don't see their family, or the way that they don't have any hobbies, or the fact that they don't sleep or they don't look after themselves, or they're drinking every night, like once again, to give ourselves the opportunity to be present to what is working in my life, what is

not working in my life. And then the ultimate power is taking responsibility for both celebrating what is working, because obviously some people listening to this are in their dream jobs, you know, and I always say, if you're in your dream job, that is not an accident. You know, that is not an accident. You have worked out what you've wanted and you have managed to create that. And then for other people, it is a case of oh, okay, when I look at what's not working, it's actually the

people that I work with. I don't know how you were, Sarah, when you first sort of got into work, but I remember when I was sort of temping as a young you know, just sort of when you're at college and various things. I remember going to one job and this kind of shows this is quite a long time ago because VHS VHS videos I was going into like a factory. I had to stick stickers on VHS videos and when

in you got for eight out. Yeah, it was a temping job in between drama school, and I think it was eight hours on a convey about with other people just putting stickers on the vhs, you know. And we got back the next day and they said, thank you for your work yesterday. It was the wrong stickers, so today you're going to take more off, and I just went thanks by.

you get to spend time with. But I think that's another thing. You work out who you are and what matters. Maybe the job isn't the job that lights you up, and it's your seize your yea. But I know, as you say this, but it allows you your job allows you to seize your ya outside of work hours, then that can work. If you just know, no, I'm happy, my job doesn't have to set me on fire because it allows me to do things outside of my work

that set me on fire. But for other people, no, I want my work to have deep meaning and I need to be passionate, and those people are. We're practiced at rejection, practice at being uncomfortable. It doesn't make it easier, but we do understand it's part of the journey.

of us will have more and some of us will have less. And that's how power is generally perceived in society, that those up here have it and those down here don't, to the exclusion of you know, there's like a finite amount.

please at the moment. But you have shown me through this book, but also in many conversations we've had before this book came out, that power is an internal thing. It's really just the ability, and that comes links to responsibility being the fifth principle that like life isn't happening to you, parts of it are parts of it you can't change, but you don't have to be reactive all the time. Power just means proactivity. It just means power

over your own circumstances. It doesn't mean over anybody else. It's actually not related to anybody else, even though it's used that way. Sometimes it just means you can choose that you want YEA in your job. You can choose you don't care about YEA in your job. If you have YEA on the weekend, you can choose whatever compromise works for you, and you can also choose that one day the dream job that you thought was your dream

job is no longer your dream job. You know, at any one time you've you've got the power, and that I think is so valuable.

my power back up? Or if I can't, who are the people around me that I know will remind me of my power, of my power when I think I don't have any Because as that quote that you shared at the beginning, Alice Walker, the biggest mistake that people make is thinking that they don't have any power in the first place.

kind of woven through the book. In those times where I felt like, no, no, I have no power in the situation at all. I have no power in this situation at all because I'm a black woman, and therefore I would be small. I will not have a voice. I don't want to be the angry black woman. I will step back. But what I've noticed in that power principle of ownership is it actually owning all of that, owning that internal story, owning the systems that are at play.

These systems are not made up. There has been a system called the patriarchy that has been run by white men, So we have to take that into account and take ownership of that. Also realized within that system, I can choose what power looks like for me, as opposed to if they have it, I don't have any. It is not true. We all have the ability to act in a particular way.

silent about hard things. And I think this book is that it's that it's your not being silent about things that all of us need to hear. You're helping other women not apologize and be quiet, and not just women, everybody, but particularly women, to not be small, to not be quiet, to not avoid hard conversations or hard things to the detriment of joy or been a soull fulfillment. But has your favorite quote changed since then?

my favorite quote for a long time. That's one of my ten thousand quotes is you get what you focus on, so focus on what you want.

feel at work? And taking the time to focus on the answers to those questions will ultimately if you're willing to take scary action, not waiting for the self doubt to go, not waiting until you're not scared, not waiting until it doesn't feel lonely, because it is lonely sometimes to make big decisions, but just knowing with all of that, I deserve to create a life and a job for myself that does give me a sense of pleasure and fulfillment, and of course a sense of yeah.