This episode is brought to you by Sikh. The great job boom is upon us and there's never been a better time to take the next step in your path.
Yay. You're not going to know until you undertake the assessment of whether or not it's worth the risk, Like you're not going to know until you go through that yes or no, And everyone has to make those decisions to themselves. But you're not going to know whether you can do it until you sit down and try and do it. Where things really started to work out for me was accepting who I was as a person and accepting that I was not going to be cookie cutter.
I was always going to be who I was, and the second that I embraced who I was, things changed to me.
Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives They adore, the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
will bear all the facets of seizing your Yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fuentrepreneurs swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,
joy and fulfillment along the way. I could not be more excited about today's guest, as she is not only one of my dearest friends in the world, but also the perfect example of an entrepreneur who has repeatedly embraced the beauty of change. She is also the exquisite bride from this past weekend. If any of you were watching my socials, you may have caught her smashing plates on the ground in her fully fledged Juton dress in true big fat Greek wedding style. Kat is nothing if not
extra and I love her to bits for it. Kat and I met at our selective entry high school mech Rob and shared the hilarious dichotomy between our very nerdy academic selves and our station hanging in wild child tendencies. On the other hand, she also went on to do law arts at Monash, but unlike me, stayed within the law to pave an incredibly successful career, but also not
without its own pivots. She is a brilliant employment lawyer who has worked her way through several huge jumps between corporate and in house Sydney and Melbourne, and is literally on the cusp of another big change. We've had a lot of self doubt and certainty chats lately, so she couldn't be more perfect for fellow seekers of change to hear from. Right now, Cat brings so much a to my life, you'll very quickly hear why. So I hope you love her as much as I do. Welcome to Seize, my darling, Cat.
Hello, my love you. Hello, beautiful people. Oh my gosh, you're so much brand.
So for context, everyone, Cat and I have known each other since like high school. So all of the chapters of My Path Yay that you've kind of heard a bit about, Kat's there for all of them, so it has born witnessed to a lot of different versions of Sarah and the Yay has also listened to the podcast and been an epic supporter for the whole time, so we'll know all the puns and all the background, so it's even more of a privilege to have you here today, my darling.
Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. And yes I have all the receipts from all the various parts of your life come out mostly on your birthday.
This is such a risk. I'm like, oh my god, this is a much I know, too much, way too much. There's photo evidence. There's just too many skeletons. But it's your turn to be in the spotlight, so we can talk about your skeletons. Let's starting to be here all day, I know, right, I was like, how much time should we really leave for this. I'm glad we're starting holiday because this is going to be like a Joe rogan
An epic, maybe a trilogy even just minus TBC on that. So, as you know, this is a mini series which has been a really amazing way to kind of dive a little bit deeper into areas that are more timely and more specific. And one of the things I probably don't share enough on the show, but really really think you're an amazing, amazing representation of is the entrepreneurial journey and how creative and fulfilled and exciting it can be to work within companies and still forge your path and cz
your yea. So I'd love to go back to the very beginning, which is something we do in every episode to kind of, you know, trace through all the dots and how they connect. What did your youngest self first seek to become? Which makes me happy because I think it's I think it's Yelvis, which I think is suh.
My god, moh. The fact that this has come up on the podcast.
Minute two and we're straight into yo. But this is important.
Elvis is important. Yas is actually relevant to my path because I actually, originally when I was little, wanted to be a ballerina, but realized pretty quickly that my physical comp position as a child not necessarily allow me to be a ballerina. And if you've seen my Greek dancing days, you'll know that that was the case. So, yeah, I wanted to be a ballerina. I was a larger child,
and yeah, couldn't do that. So I think I don't really know what my younger self wanted to be, because as long as I can remember, people told me I should be a lawyer. I talked a lot. Yeah, So I remember being like maybe three or four or five when my dad was like, you would make a great lawyer. You talk so much. I was very quick to defend people like yes, yeah, a constant defender of the underdog. I would have an argument when an argument was not required,
like genuinely would just start fighting. I just always wanted to put forward an opposing viewpoint or be the devil's advocate. I think I'm still like that, but yeah, I just forever had this messaging that you would be a great lawyer. You would be a great lawyer. So I kind of grew up in my kind of formative years knowing that that was the path. People had always told me that.
That is extraordinary. I actually didn't know that about you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like I mean obviously a chatterbox like you know that can't get a word in sideways around me and love, you know, as we said off podcast, love giving a lecture occasionally mostly drunk about life.
And I mean those are my favorite chats with you, my absolute.
Favorite just discussing life. Existential crisis comes up often, you know, why the world is the way the world is? The stars has come up recently, as you know, you know, all those discussions.
God, I mean, our voice memos to each other are just out of prolific, out of controlic.
Yeah. But also I love a voice memo. So for everyone listening, I think voice memos are the way of the future. Don't text that people listen to the voices.
You need the voice. You need the voice, the animation in your voice on a Monday morning.
And also, like tell me, if you get a voice message from your girlfriend, you don't know that the message is going to be great. Like it's not like I, Hey, what's up. It's I have a story to tell you, and I have to tell you right now, and you need to listen to my voice. That's a tough thing, exactly.
So obviously, Yelvis is yellow Elvis, which actually is probably not that obvious to anyone outside No, but yellow Elvis was a costume that it.
Wasn't a costume. That was the best part of it. What do you mean It wasn't a costume, It wasn't outfit, So yellow Elvis. So as part of my journey, we moved to Greece when we were little, and right I told us we were going on a holiday. People are going to think my family's bond because after listening to.
This, which is accurate.
So Dad was like, oh, we're going on a family holiday. And we didn't really holiday as kids. Like, the focus for us was really like education, you know, migrant kind of story. You come to this country, mum's a refugee, dad's migrant, came to country to give your children a future, and that was the whole focus. They worked. We went to school with the vision, you know, the kind of greater vision in mind. And anyway, I was nine years old and Dad said, we're going to go to Greece
for a holiday. So I was like, great, this is what all the other kids do. This is amazing. So we went to Greece. Narrator, it was not a holiday.
Dad moved on, you should n'tarrate every episode.
I feel that was just like surprise, we're living here. Actually, the weird thing that happened was when we got there, we enrolled us at school and I was like, this is weird. My like, Anglo friends don't go to school when they go on holidays. I've seen, like, I don't know, this is really strange. Anyway, a year later, we're still in Grace, We're still in school. I was like, something's not right. So we leaved over there for a year, and then we came back because obviously that didn't work out.
So we came back and on my first day back at my primary school in Melbourne, it was casual clothes day, and because I had just been in Greece for a whole year, I was really welcoming a euro vibe, you know. I was all about the sequence, the white pants.
The you know, the Eurovision time seasons.
Yeah, and so I decided that on my first day back at my primary school. Mind you, everyone's wearing like trackies and you know, like I mean when we were wearing back.
There, Yeah, gosh, brand.
I turned up in my favorite euro outfit because I was like, I'm going to make an entrance. Also, nothing's changed, and I was like three piece canary yellow outfit, Elvis esque, you know. It was a bell bottom bell bottom pants with his little tiny best and like a blazer. Now, honestly, I'm pretty sure I saw Scanlon selling a similar set recently for like one thousand dollars. Meanwhile, I picked it
up at like some little woggie market in Gulla. Mother and my god and I went to school and I was, you know, I was a little bit rotund at the time, like if you push me down a hill, I would have rolled just for like a while, bab And so you know, a mid droop top at that age was like cute now, but like at the time not and kids are vicious. So I turned up on the day in this outfit. Everyone else is in like navy red, like normal stuff, and I turn up looking literally like
baby Elvis. And I just remember sitting by myself on the steps of the church and people yelling Yelvis at me, like obviously yellow outfit, and I looked like Elvis. So I was yelloless from there on. Love and you still tell you guys this story, and now the whole world goes this story.
So we live for the day that Yelvis makes a return. I feel like it's going to happen on Londony in our friendship.
One hundred percent will make a return at some stage. But you know what, like the Bully was relentless. But I look back on it quite fondly because I think it was formative.
It was, yeah, and.
It's a great story.
Now it isn't great. It's a very It's a great conversation starter. Not that you need conversation starters to help you with conversation. I think it's I think it's really like in a really endearing, lovely way. It's such a representation of what you are in this life. You aren't the person who turns up in the Navy and the Red.
You've never made a quiet entrance, You've never been a wallflower, and it does mean that it's been especially hard, I think for you to find the box that you fit in, if not that you don't really want to fit in, which is why you're the perfect guest for this miniseries because the you know, the whole idea is that we often have a dream that either we don't end up doing or that we get to in a totally different
way to the way we thought. And even the fact that you wanted to be a lawyer, but your first year at UNI wasn't law, it was arts and then you moved into arts law, Like, there's been so many big pivots along the way, and I think, you know, one of the common kind of themes for everyone in finding their pathways, and it never really looks you know, the more unique that you are, the harder it is to find what the right way is for you. So tell us about how you did end up where you are.
I mean, you've had some extraordinary positions. But it was not a straight line.
No, And it was a struggle I have to admit, because, like you said, I never really fit the mold. I mean we came up kind of together. Through high school and through UNI primary school was a challenge for me. Like I said, I got bullied quite a lot. High school is kind of where I found myself, and particularly at Macrob. I mean I kicked and screamed about going to Macrob and I ran away from home. I don't
know if I've ever told you that story. When I got in, my dad was like you're going to MCROB and I was like, nah, I have friends where I am and I ran away from home. It lasted eight hours. I'm not joking. I got hungry and came back, but I love you.
Probably ran like around the block and we're like.
Oy the way I was around the corner, just sitting by train tracks, like I know that that level crossing, And then I got hungry and then I was like I'm going over my protest. So yeah, high school was kind of where I found myself. But the career path that you're given, but I think, particularly when we were
coming through school. I think it's changing now. But the career path that we were told was the way through high school through into the first stages of UNI was very much like must get X score, must get into degree instantly, must finish degree, start working like that was kind of what we were told. And particularly when you were looking to do law, you know, I remember the kind of clerkship season, and it was like, if you don't get into a certain law firm, you're not going
to succeed if you don't. You know, it was like your mid tiers and your top tiers and you know, and that was kind of what we were told. So and my path was not that at all. I really struggled at UNI. I knew I was going to love practice, but I hated UNI. I loved the social aspect, surprise, surprise, shocking down, so just sitting down for that message.
An aru, but I.
Hated the study I did. I didn't want to study property law, and I didn't want to study body constitutional law, and I didn't I wasn't interested, and I, you know, I would come from a very kind of like rigid structure at high school into a very autonomous structure at UNI, and I really struggled to find my feet between you know, going to Cuba every Thursday night and then going out every Friday night and Saturday and trying to study in between,
you know, like there wasn't enough time. How do I fit in all of the things most in all of the things. So yeah, I really really struggled. And then at Uni. I did really well at high school, you know, comparatively like if you look at scale, but still didn't get enough to get into UNI. And that was a real blow, Like I felt really devastated by that, but decided to do arts and yeah, did two years of arts at Monash and then transferred in to a law degree.
Actually almost missed my spot in the transfer because I didn't check my emails with the offer the letter of offer, and oh my god, the deadline and missed the deadline and ended up at the legal like the law faculty office, like crying, literally in tears, saying I've been waiting my whole life for this, my parents moved to Australia for this, Please let me in, Please give me my spot, and
ended up having to do orientation late. It was a whole thing, but yeah, it wasn't an easy thing to get into law, and then I got into law and really struggled through it until kind of the end when I really kind of buckled down. And then I didn't get into a top tier law firm. And the message at the time was if you don't get into a top tier law firm, you're not going to do very well. And you had that in your mind, and I don't know,
I just kind of kept at it. I think I surrounded myself with people who believed in me, and my parents were incredibly instrumental in that because they thought I was a success. Like they didn't realize or know what a top tier law firm was. All they knew was that their daughter had gotten into law and you know, had kind of fulfilled why they came to Australia. So
then ended up it was a really weird story. My now sister in law, my then brother's girlfriend, messaged me and said, Hey, I'm doing some casual work at a boutique law firm. You know, do you want some work experience? And I was like, sure, what do they do? When she said employment law? And I was like, what on God's greenerth is that you never even heard about this thing.
What you mean we had it like at UNI, your you know, your core subjects were not employment law, and it was an elective but it didn't sound very entertaining.
It's called industrial relations, and I was like, what does that even mean? What does that you say it? But I'm like this around yeah, yeah exactly.
So we had no idea and it didn't sound sexy like criminal law, like oh yeah, I'm an employment lawyer.
And now I think it's obviously for you.
Yeah, like literally, I'm not going to be famous and defend underbelly people like this, which was obviously the dream at the time. Of course, all of our dream obviously obviously. Yeah, So Nicole was like, yeah, just come and interview and
you know, give it a crack. Anyway, turned up to the interview for this firm that I knew, not what they did and not of employment and industrial relations, and did the interview and thought, I mean, one of the things that I have to say I'm very good at is faking confidence, and I think that's been really instrumental in my career. I'm just really good at faking it till I make it. So I walked in confident, I'm lowed. So that's not necessarily hard to like project and.
Volume is not your challenge. That's not your challenge. Yeap.
So had the interview, and then I actually found out some years later that there was two guys that I interviewed with. One wanted to hire me and one didn't. Oh yeah. The one who wanted to hire me just kind of he said, I just kind of saw something in you. And the one who didn't want to hire me thought that I was all confidence and nothing else, which is an interesting comment. Wow. Also goes to show that maybe being interviewed by men as an assertive woman might come off a certain way.
But anyway, I mean, we have a whole question on that, so we'll come back to that for sure.
Yes, So got the casual job and there and then worked the phones, and really what the job was was I did a couple of days a week and that was on top of you know, our retail jobs and yuinni and whatever, giving advice to retailers about employment conditions, so things like modern awards, the National Employment Standards contracts
HR advice effectively. And realized pretty quickly that there was this whole area of law that I didn't know anything about, but really kind of liked, like I got to deal with people, I got to you know, I liked the relevance of employment. You know, we all work, so many people don't know their rights, and I you know, found
myself feeling quite passionately about it. So did that for a while and then kind of got towards the end of our degree, and in my penultimate year, towards the end of my penultimate yea was offered a graduate role, which, you know, as most people know, was like god, I don't even know, like it was like the biggest a gift on.
Earth, like plinicle, like.
A secure and role totally, and you know, and got one at a firm that I really liked with people I really enjoyed working with. But the catch was I had eleven subjects to go, and so I needed to do eleven subjects in twelve months.
That's right, Oh my god, I forgot that.
Yeah, So I was like, shit, cat, Like, if ever there's a time where you've got to really like pull your socks up, I hate that saying. Why did I say that?
Because at we had to pull our socks up all the time.
It's contextual. Yeah, there was ever a time where I really had to like step up and deliver forre myself more than anything, you know. That was the time. So I did a summer subject, four semesters two and then I think four again. Somehow managed to like complete the degree and then graduated and then ended up working at this law firm. Can I say names on the podcast.
Yeah, absolutely, if you're comfortable.
Yeah. The firm's called FCB Workplace Law. It was an incredible place for me to loe. They're one of Australia's kind of boutique employment and industry relations firms and learned
from really really exceptional lawyers. And one of the other things that happened when I started my supervised workplace training, which is like the first part of being a lawyer, was the firm was kind of like under resourced at the time, there being kind of like a staff movement, which meant that I was also being exposed to work that was a well above my pay grade and well above my years of experience, and that was terrifying. At
the time. I was like, literally, fuck, I am going to ruin someone's life, someone's business, Like why is anyone allowing me to do this? This is a bad idea, Guys, I don't know what I'm.
Doing talking about employment law. Why did you employ me?
Why did you employ me? Terrible idea? You should know about it. Like was genuinely felt like I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. But it was sink or swim, and you had to swim, like you just you know, you just didn't have a choice, and really throwing the deep end, you know, long hours, fifteen hour days, eating fucking two minute noodles. My it was literally beige at the time. It was like baskets and noodles and toast, and like coffee, so much coffee, and nothing.
About you is beige. That was a really I remember. It was a really hard time, just a hard time time.
Yeah, but I think it was for a lot of us, and I also think it was formative for a lot of us. Now. I'm certainly not saying that lawyers have to work those hours to prove themselves. I think that's nonsense, and I think the tide is changing on that most definitely. I think people coming through now have a greater appreciation of work life balance and in a way that we didn't. We almost feel like we had to do it because
it was like part of being a lawyer. And I don't necessarily condone that, but what it certainly did do for me was it showed me that I could step up and I could deliver, and I could step up in a world that I didn't always feel like I belonged in. I mean, I always felt like being a lawyer you had to be this kind of like cookie cutter kind of you had to be quiet in a way, right, Like we had this image of lawyers, and I certainly am not the image. I am brash, I can be
quite abrasive. I swear a lot like I swear a lot. I you know, I'm a big personality. I'm a woman, and I was entering a world and particularly the industrial relations side is incredibly male dominated, and you're dealing with unions and you know this is not a comment about unions, but you know that there is this kind of like
male dominance that you have to deal with. And you know, I wasn't going to be the reserved lawyer that was going to cop the shit, and you know, I was outspoken, and yeah, I just didn't fit a mold and that was really really hard. But yeah, those first kind of years showed me that I could really step up, and that kind of maybe was the beginning of what happened after my kind of first couple of years as a lawyer.
I think, well, that also makes me really think a couple of things. Firstly, because you and I have been through the you know, the big career kind of becoming a big formative part of our lives. If you're the main part of our life, but through a lot of self doubt. Often people who don't know I won't have seen that, but we've seen each other's absolute breakdowns along the way. First is that you can push through that.
But second, something I love about you and why I'm excited to have you for this particular mini series is the idea that now knowing everyone listening, knowing how much you wanted this for how long and how hard it was to get there, like the barriers on top of the normal conventional pathway that you had to take to make sure you got into FCB, then you, I mean, I know you won't blow your own horn, became one
of like the thirty lawyers under thirty. You know, you won all these awards, you became a senior associate, You lived up to what you worried you never could. It would have been very easy for you then to be comfortable there, Like once you did conquer one workplace, you could have lived there for decades, become a partner and
kind of never moved. But you know, there's a statistic that's just come out as part of this kind of mini series to the background to it is that like sixty one percent of Australians right now don't want to change jobs in the next twelve months because we've been threatened with so much uncertainty and instability. But I I kind of think of it as an opportunity and knowing now what's happened to you since then, being headhunted and like all the things you never thought that could happen,
but also the scariest things that could happen. Why do you think we are so averse to change? And how did you then embrace the massive changes that have come more than once since then? I mean FCB is like three chapters ago for you. Now, how did you push through you know, that fear of change?
So the first thing I will say is I hate change like I can't hate penance, like I fight change like I'm gonna tell you a story. I were the same pants to every exam we ever did at Monash Law and fuck, we did a lot of exams and I wore the same pants. They were these black cargo zip off pants. They could be shorts, they could be pants. Were you feeling hot in the exam? Were you feeling cold in the exam? Who knows? I will the same pants?
Is there every situation.
I'm so superstitious and I hate change so much that to me, maintaining control of anything was the easiest way for me to get through life. In saying that, to answer the question, I think, why don't people go through change because it's scary, Because being in a situation that's known and sure is easier. It's like staying in a relationship you're not happy in, you're not miserable, it's not toxic,
it's okay. You stay in it because it's easy and it's comfortable, and it's known, and the unknown is really really scary as humans, and I think, particularly after the last two years, every day has felt unknown. Will we have restrictions? When we have restrictions, we're borders open, we're borders clothes. Can I go to that event? Can I not go to that event is my family okay? Is my family not? Okay? You know, change is really really scary, and once though, I think you allow yourself to kind
of just go with it, that becomes easier. And also I think there needs to be an acceptance that change can be good. And that took me a really long time to work out that change is good and change may bring good and especially I think if you're an anxious person. I'm an anxious person. So for me, change is like like affects my mental health sometimes and I'm very open about that. So I think it is it's hard for everyone.
And so how did you kind of like full context for everyone? Kat then went on to get head hunted by Borrel. So then adding your unique perspectives as a woman in the construction industry is you know, another sort of layer here. But then god head hunted by Australia Post. Like, you've just had so many enormous changes within employment law and within a you know, one kind of vague category, but with you know, that's coming back to the entrepreneurial
possibilities to within companies grow exponentially. You've changed complete industries, like from construction to Australia Posts. Like they are so diametrically opposed in nature. How did you push through that doubt, that anxiety, that hatred of change until you can realize the benefits in it, Like, how did you get through those uncomfortable, you know, responses in your body?
I think it started at FCB, if I'm honest, being able to accept change, And I think it was because I was surrounded by people, two partners in particular, who really backed me and allowed me to back myself. So I think it started there. I would say where things really started to work out for me was accepting who I was as a person and accepting that I was not going to be cookie cutter. I was always going to be who I was. And the second that I embraced who I was, which is what you see is
what you get kind of things changed for me. Once I accepted that clients liked me because I was who I was, that my colleagues liked me because I was who I was, That I was good at what I
did because I was who I was. Once I stopped trying to fit this like bullshit mold that I thought was a lawyer, I actually got really fucking good at my job because I got I had this different confidence that was like, I'm not going to sit myself in a box for you, and no, I actually deserve to be at that table, and I'm going to demand a
place at that table. So that's kind of where it changed for me, and I think the kind of critical part of that was and that's where I kind of learned to start embracing change and backing myself people believing in me, having an incredible network around me of people like yourself who I've messaged being like, fuck, what am I doing?
Tell me those on my phone from you.
So then I went into I did a secondment at Borrel, and then Borrel effectively kind of had having me ask me to stay on as an in house legal council there. So I stepped into a different world that was a huge change for me. All I had known since UNI was FCB. I did eight years there, from casual to junior grad to solicitor to associate to senior associate. That's all I had known. And then I stepped into a world where that none of that shit matted at all.
The guys at Borrel, the girls at Borrel. Could I have given two fucks what I was in my previous life. They were like, you're a legal counsel. Now there's a whole other range of stakeholders, you have to deal with a whole other range of considerations. And you're a woman now in a man's world, like very much in a man's world. Yeah, And that was really really hard. And then moving to POST was another change that probably was the scarier change. I always had a backup plan because
I was on Secconvent to start with. I knew the people, and I knew that if I hated it, I could kind of like put my safety blanket back on and go back to FCB, which is what I knew. Post was entirely different. I was going into a situation where I'm knew one person, the organization was entirely different. Wasn't in construction or infrastructure, wasn't private practice. That was really scary. And actually remember having a conversation with you where I was like, what am I doing? Do I take this
chance or not? I hate change? Why am I looking for another change? What's wrong with me? Why can I not be less ambitious? Why can't I just be happy? And that was hard. And now the role that I've just accepted, which is you to start in May was the hardest decision for me because I've always dealt with imposter syndrome as a woman. I've never dealt with it as much as I've dealt with it. Taking this job on, I don't think, as you know.
Which is interesting, isn't it? Isn't it? It's like you've built a toolkit to deal with that, and yet as the stakes get higher, it actually becomes more acute, which means you're constantly developing those tools.
And I keep saying to people, you know, I think I've said this to you where I say, you know, this is a stretch role for me, and people like, why do you keep saying that? That means that you're not backing yourself. So yeah, all the stuff that I've just said that I learned to do back myself, be myself. Go into organizations where I'm a cultural fit, where it's not just them interviewing me, but I'm interviewing them. Have unraveled.
The more kind of senior my roles get and I'm back to feeling like a woman in a man's world who isn't qualified enough to be there and questioning my seat at the table again, which has been an interesting transformation mentally for me, because I feel like I've come kind of full circle again and I'm now convincing myself again you can do this, You can push through this. Remember the days of eating two minute noodles at your desk. This is what you wanted, this is what you worked for.
Now is your chance to take this opportunity in a candidates market. You know, it really is a market at the moment for people to back themselves and have a crack. And you've been given this opportunity. Why the fuck are you not taking it? Q thirty five thousand voice messages to you.
Next me in it, catecceity my last few months highlight.
Yeah, so that's kind of that's where I'm at at the moment. But still battling with all the stuff that we deal with as you know, as women, as candidates, as people who want to progress their careers, as people who don't like change. All of those things factor into decision making, I think absolutely.
And it is so interesting that you've heard me, I'm sure you've heard me speak many times about the fact that actually, you will get better at mastering self doubt, you'll get better at pitching yourself and having those conversations. But as you get like the day that it disappears is the day I worry I've become too complacent. It's not a bad thing for that self doubt to follow you.
It just means you're constantly leveling up each time, which is why changes is important, so that you don't ever get like too comfortable that you're not learning or growing as you grow as a person in the world does
around you. And the candidates market thing is like the point that I really want to have a home for people, which is it really hasn't ever been a better time for you to just make the most of this phenomenon that is, you know, it's being called the Great boom because there are more jobs than they have ever been before, but less candidates and less people applying than they ever have been before, So like, why do you think we should make the most of it?
You know?
The quote that I love is when nothing is certain, anything is possible, everyone's in Like the uncertainty is universal now, so it's almost like just ignore that and just go for like what's the worst that could happen? And then also, I know you've had a rejection recently as well, and that ties in a lot to you know, not wanting to put ourselves out there and even knowing that there's a higher chance than ever knowing that that also is
not the end of the story either. It's just a time of like trying lots of things, putting lots of you know, little seeds and things out there. Why do you think we should make the most of this time in particular?
Well, I guess firstly because there's so many opportunities at the moment. So like the role I've just taken, for example, isn't technically a legal role. It's a role that requires or I guess, you know, ideally someone will have a legal background and understand the kind of technical components of ERR, but doesn't actually require I want to be an ir lawyer.
I just happened to be one, And I think now is an opportunity, like what I've just done, for people to kind of go to pivot kind of sideways, like not necessarily go up in the same kind of a corporate ladder that they may have thought, but to use the skills that they've acquired during the course of their careers to do something else, to do something they've always wanted to try, and I just think to myself, what's the worst that's going to happen? You apply for a job,
you don't get it. Okay, that hurts. I just had a rejection recently, the first one I've actually ever had in my life, which sounds so arrogant to say, and I don't mean it to sound arrogant, but being rejected, you can take it very, very personally, and it's not personal. You just weren't the right person for the job. You were too senior, you were too junior, you were not
you know that you were in a cultural fit. I think that's a big one, you know, So you know rejection is hard, But what's the worst that's going to happen. You're going to get rejected and you'll get over it, and you've probably got a job to stay at. Anyway, you're going to get the job, and you have to consider whether or not you take it. Now. Just because you get the job doesn't mean you need to take it.
I mean, the way that you interview is really important, and the way that you communicate, you know, whether you accept or reject an offer or negotiate an off is really important, I think. But you don't need to take a job just because you get it. So what's the worst that's going to happen. You have more interview experience, you get to meet more people, you get to network, you get to give it a go, and if you want it, great, and if you don't, then you're back to where you kind of were.
Like, yeah, you haven't lost anything.
You haven't lost anything. And that's really hard for me to say again as somebody who hates change and you know, finds it quite anxiety inducing. But there's really no downside, especially at the moment, Like there's just so many opportunities out there for people, and we all have imposter syndrome and we all have self doubt and we just need to even if even with that, just give it a crack.
I don't know, my dad always said, and I don't know if you've ever heard him say this, but like he always just said to us, do your best, and like, just do your best, give it a go and see what happens. And you know, I even say going into my new job, like I say to my partner all the time, this could be the best thing I've ever done. This could be the biggest mistake I've ever made. But I'm not going to know until I give it a crack,
and what's the worst that's going to happen? Like, we're very privileged, I mean in an incredibly privileged position where I could find another job or I could not work for a little bit if I had to, like it wouldn't be great, but like if I had to, so you know, for people who are able to do so, it's always worth taking a risk. I think. I say that as a not risk taker.
Oh my god, bro, that is such good advice. That question coming back to that idea of what is the worst that could happen? And there will absolutely be times in your life where the worst that could happen is too much of a risk. There will be times where you might have a dependent or you might have you know, whatever circumstances might be there that mean it is too
much of a risk. But if you do ask that question and the answer is, I won't lose anything except maybe a bit of a you know, pride might be hurt, I might take something personally, it might feel a little
bit icky. Or you apply for all these things and you suddenly have all these opportunities you never knew you had, and you can still choose to say no, Like if the worst that could happen is that either you say no or they say no, and like you take a few minutes to get over it, but you haven't lost anything.
And everything is a calculated risk, right, So you know, I think especially as women, and you know, depending on where you are in your life and what your personal choices are. By no means to say that all women want to make the same choices. That's certainly not the case. But if you are a woman like myself who does want to have a family and does want to be a mother and does want to be able to dedicate time to that, that the considerations and the pros and
cons become different. Again. It's no longer just a career trajectory and financial you know, your remuneration. It's also what else do I need to give up? What does my timing look like? Like timing also becomes really really important, and you know there are things that will factor into
the analysis of is this worth the risk? But you're not going to know until you undertake the assessment of whether or not it's worth the risk, Like you're not going to know until you go through that yes or no. And I just did this, So this is very fresh for me. You know, do I leave a job that I'm in that I'm really enjoying it at the moment, with great colleagues, great flexibility, I could have a family, I can go off and get married, you know whatever.
Or do I take a huge gamble and restart my matt leave clock effectively and know that maybe I won't get maternity leave, or maybe it won't be as flexible in the workplace. You know, I'm going into a very intense role. Maybe I won't get the flexibility. But it's just everyone has to make those decisions for themselves. But you're not going to know whether you can do it until you sit down and try and do it.
Oh my gosh, that just is So it's just everything that sees the A is about the idea that, like you know, firstly, everyone's equation, everyone's risk matrix is going to be different, so you really don't have to look at the way anyone else has done it as long as you're trying to do the equation at all. Secondly, I love the idea that you were saying about back
to rejection. I think it's really important to remember also that sometimes rejection is just redirecting you, like sometimes you're getting rejected from a role because it's not not only are you not the right cultural fit, it might be saving you from going down a pathway that isn't then for you. I think that's also something. And then finally on the whole idea of like your risk matrix, it's actually, like you just said before, the job you have right
now is fulfilling. You've got great opportunities, You've got a great maternity lead policy. You know, all these things for two people who have for different reasons, like with your parents being you know, migrants and me being adopted. We've had this like really overh sense of gratitude for a really long time. Sometimes the hesitation of the reason Ozzies don't want to change jobs is also because they feel like it's ungrateful to want something more than something that's good.
But you don't have to settle for good, like otherwise we would all just live this like fine life. You'd never grow, you'd never try anything else. Just because you're happy where you are, it doesn't mean you can't at least put your toe in a different water. Yeah, like you said, you don't have to say yes if you get the job.
And gone other days. You know. I had an interesting conversation with my parents recently where I told them about the new role and I was like, Oh, I got this really exciting opportunity to be an IR manager on this new enormous ten billion dollar project. This is what I'm doing. And the response was, we're happy for you, but didn't you just start a new job? Why not
stay in that job? Like this idea that you have to stay in a job like our parents did for ten, twenty thirty, forty fifty years, Like those days are gone. Now there is so many opportunities out there, and opportunities look different to us, you know. Like to your point about comparison, I spent the last probably five or six years comparing myself to like so many of the incredible people you've had on the podcast, for example, being like, why can't I be an entrepreneur? Why can't Why did
I not have that idea? Why is this still my trajectory? It's no longer like it's not cool or it's not you know, am I really fulfilling? You know? What I was put on this earth to do. God, that sounds like so wanky, But like you know what I mean, Like, it is true my life goal, you know, by not being an entrepreneur or whatever. But like I think also like comparing yourself to someone who's not on your path
is really difficult in our day and age. Like, yes, we have more opportunities, but we also have more opportunities to compare ourselves to people who aren't actually doing the same thing as us. So totally, I don't know if that makes any sense, but like, do you know what I mean?
Oh? Absolutely, And I think that's one thing. I think that is one thing, like the hustle culture and like the total democratization of choice and influence and business ideas has meant where a generation where, you know, becoming an entrepreneur and starting a business like startup culture has been really hailed and glorified as like the way to happiness because.
You totally.
Does not suit everyone. Absolutely does not suit everyone. The reason why I'm so excited about it is because the like pathway of an entrepreneur is there's no greater than less than equal to whatever. It's just like some people
aren't suited to running their own business. It was liberating for me, but it could be totally restrictive for others, like some people don't thrive in that environment, and you've been able to like change industries, probably at a much greater level of change than someone who was running their
own business. They couldn't have probably gone from like construction to Australia posts like you know, you're able to make massive changes, massive growth opportunities within companies and focus on the skill that you have rather than being an accountant and being a marketing person. I'm doing all the things at once. I think you'd hate that.
I know very despite comparing myself to numerous people who run their own businesses, I know I could never run my own business, and not that I could not. It's not a competency thing. I don't want to. I really actually love what I do, Like I am a proper eir nerd like I read cases on aeroplanes at seven o'clock in the morning, like it's discussed you do.
I love how much you love it and how much you never knew you would love it.
I get such a kick out of it. I'm really lucky to be in a profession where you know, I can be myself, I can deal with people. I can you know, be you know, intelligent, and also, you know, the interesting thing about being in my space as a woman is you're a surprise packet, Like they don't really see you coming a lot of the time, which is great. But I think if people are like me, if you really love what you do, don't worry about being an entrepreneur.
But now is your time? Really, like genuinely twenty twenty two, I think is the time for you to either back yourself and take a risk in what you're doing, or back yourself and take a risk in something adjacent to what you're doing and just try something else on and see what happens. I mean, unless you're really happy where you are, and then like stay there, like sure, tell y if you've been entertaining the idea of like do
I don't? I like, now is really the time to have a go, Like I'm trying to build a team at the moment under me, and like we can't find enough people to hire, like it really is a candidate's market.
There you go, Lovely yighborhood. You all know how excited I get about life unraveling in chapters and how uncertainty is the greatest platform for opportunity. After a few tough years the great job boom is upon us, and there has never been a better time to start the next step in your path. Yay. We talk at length on this show about the obstacles to change, and the statistics
are real. Forty five percent, nearly half of Aussie's are worried their skills and resume won't stuck up against other Aussies. Fifty nine percent are worried that if they changed jobs, it might not be the right role or company for them. But if you let your mind worry that there's a risk it won't work out, logic consists that you must also accept that it could also work out better than you had ever dreamed. Plus, the numbers are on your side.
In March, job ads on SEQ were up thirty two percent compared to the same time last year and fifty one percent compared to pre pandemic levels, but job applications per job ad are down forty two percent compared to pre pandemic levels. So there are more jobs but less competition than ever before. So if you're looking to change Pathia's head on over to seek and take advantage of the great job boom. Also for those who are considering
putting themselves forward, for something. I think we are not always the best at pitching ourselves, if not other worst at pitching ourselves, Like you and I always struggle with that, are spoken at length about it. How have you learnt to be able to get a bit more comfortable with putting your best foot forward so that you don't miss out on something that is meant for you just because you are uncomfortable, you know, with the language of like blowing your own horn. You know, we live in a
really tall puppy syndrome infected landscape. And plus self doubt plus imposter syndrome, plus being a woman, plus being an overthinker, you know, all of those things. Is there any advice for like your CV or organizing meetings with someone who might put you forward for a job, Like, how do you take advantage of it without feeling icky about putting yourself you know, pitching yourself?
I mean really, I'd just like love to walk into an interview and be like I'm cute and I'm really nice and I'm really entertaining, like Hiami, love me, pay me, like That's what I want to do. But yeah, no, you can't do that, and interviewing is really tricky. Selling yourself is really hard and as I think women in particular, My god, I've raised the woman thing a lot, but like,
obviously that's my experience. Obviously it's my strange. I think it's hard because I think, like you said, in Australia, we have this tall poppy syndrome things, so there's a fine line between selling yourself and being arrogant, and you don't want to come across as arrogant or we have this like thing inouse society about not being arrogant and
selling yourself. My tips are be who you are. That's the first thing, like a like a cute, pared down version of who you are, Like I'm not entirely in myself in an interview, Like let's be honest, but be who you are, know your worth, know what things you're good at, and also be honest, like that's my biggest thing. Do not pretend to know something, not know something in
an interview, because you will be found out. Like that's my and I say that as both an employment lawyer and as someone who has interviewed a lot, like calm down, like we're gonna know if you're lying, But be honest with people you know, like I walked into this inter and said to them, I've never managed a project like this. This is well outside of my scope. But here is why I think I can do it. And just put yourself forward. And like we said, the worst thing that's
going to happen is they're going to reject you. The other thing I would say is do your recent make sure you research the company, make sure you research the people. It's really not that hard. We all sit on our phones all the bloody time, jump on LinkedIn, have a look at people, and know why you want the job. And I think if you do genuinely want the job, you'll be able to convey why you want it much easier. But yeah, for me, the big one is be yourself.
Understand yourself, like, understand what your strengths and weaknesses are genuinely, not in like a wanky way, you know, not like I'm really good with people, like great, but like how does that apply specific?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, And I think, oh god, my big piece of advice is James is gonna hate me for saying this. Be disagreeable, like, especially if you're a woman. Yeah, be disagreeable. You should not be grateful someone's given you a job, like I mean, yeah, be grateful because you're being given an opportunity, but you deserve that. If you're given a job, you deserve that role. You've proven yourself already, so don't just take whatever is given to you, Like back yourself,
negotiate to ask questions. It's I always think that one of the things that we forget is candidates is that like they're not just interviewing you, you're interviewing them as well, Like they need to be right for you. So do your research, be yourself, be honest, back yourself, ask questions. Has that answered the question? I don't know if I'm not so much.
I think there you go, you're already like, did I even answer the question? Was it good enough? But absolutely you nailed it.
It was.
It's so true. I think we find it, particularly as women. Yeah, really hard to balance that really awkward line between assertiveness and likability and then particularly being someone like me. I'm like so like, I hate confrontation. I need everyone to like me. But it's really hard then to say what you want because you don't want to, you know, muddy the waters. You don't want to tip the boat. You don't upset anyone.
But I think there's also a fine line between you know, being disagreeable and being confrontational, being assertive and being aggressive, and I think it's finding where your line is. Like I know, for example, that my delivery can come across as quite aggressive, so I've worked on that kind of over the years, so I can still be myself but come across in asertive rather than aggressive kind of way.
And I think we need to change our mindsets as well, Like asking for what you deserve doesn't make you confrontational or aggressive, it makes you knowing your self worth. Like I know I am good at what I do. This is the salary that I want or the conditions that I want, and if you're not going to offer that, then okay, that's fine. But either we're going to negotiate on something else or it's not the right role for me. That doesn't make you confrontational, it just makes you you.
Yeah. And another thing I think that happens is like you know, coming back to you saying it's okay to say no if you get an offer. I think sometimes we're flattered by the bare minimum, Like we get flattered that we've been asked to do something, so then we feel like, well, I should do it because I was
asked without ever asking, Wait, do I actually want that? Like, There's been plenty of things that I've been asked to do that I've just it's almost been an automatic yes, just because I'm flattered by the offer.
And that comes down to that gratitude thing.
Yeah, yeah, I'm like, ill, it's not anything in line with what I want to do, what I'm good at, what I enjoyed, But for some reason, that flattery overrides.
And women do that more than men. I think there's a statistic about women who are disagreeable when it comes to like looking for roles, and how much more likely they are to get a higher salary or better terms and conditions than women who just accept the first offer that's made to them. And I think part of the reason I've managed to be successful. I've never said that out loud.
I'm so proud of you. I have never heard you say that ever.
Oh God, it's like therapy, whatst.
Extraordinarily baby, It's you just had me voice memos all the time.
That's like part of the reason that I've managed to be successful. I mean, God, I've said it twice that I'm disagreeable. Yeah, James, I can tell you about He's like, oh yeah, let's talk about being bloodied disagreeable. Is there a day that goes by that you're not going to disagree with something? I was like, do you want a guess person? If you want a guess person, I'm not your gal, but you're married to someone else.
That's why you are such a big inspiration for me, because I'm not like that by default, and I need to be like that sometimes. And you need to surround yourself with people who emulate the things that you don't and who will help you guide you to like, not change who you are, but fill the gaps of the areas where perhaps you're disadvantaging yourself by not just working on it. You can work on yourself without changing yourself fundamentally. It's okay to be like you know, I think sometimes
we're very all or nothing. We're like, oh, I need to be more loud, so then you totally become someone you're not. You don't need to do that. You just maybe need to think about where you're losing out because of something, and like and Taylor it a little bit so that you're not missing out. You have given such valuable, extraordinary advice, but it would also be absolutely remossis me on this show in particular not to ask a non
work from lated question. All So, before we wrap up, how important is it for you to cultivate your identity outside of work?
I e?
What is your playta? And this is particularly relevant because you do work in an industry like many where your spare time to cultivate that side of yourself isn't plentiful. Your flexibility to do that isn't as easily, you know, easy as it might be for someone who does work for themselves. But it's still incredibly important. So how do you do that? And who are you like outside of work?
Who were my outside of work? Maybe you should answer this question.
I know a delight, a pure joy, bitter Elvis in there loves the dance floor.
I do. Actually that is one of my play ta things. I love a dance for I hate myself the next day after a big night, but also feel like I really do need it. That is one of my big things. I'm a big social person. So my play day, I mean, the first thing would be yeah, friends and family, you guys feel my happy cup. I don't have a lot of time to see people, and I don't have a lot of time to play really, but when I do, I try and make the most of every kind of second.
So the first one, if I may, would definitely be hanging out with my friends and family, even if it's in little doses, I definitely I walk away feeling revived in a way that nothing else kind of does that for me. That's the first one. The second one is I bloody love reality television, Like, oh I got to know this disgusting, disgusting way, Like I could watch reality TV all weekend and with like zero shame attached. When I met James, he was just like, oh god, reality television,
Like don't you just how do you watch this? And I said to him, my job is so intense. All I want to do when I have a second to watch TV is to tune out. I don't want to watch Bloody the movie Tenet that I have to like google what they hell? Just you watch for three hours? Yeah, I've watched the movie twice now I still don't fucking understand it. I just I don't want to think. I just want something that's like entertaining. I like people watching, So yeah, I love reality TV. I love to cook.
My God, I love to cook cookings like meditation for me. I love throwing it dinner party, so when I move back to Melbourne, we can have lots of dinner parties. Yes, it's so exciting. I love event planning, which people think is sick and like.
Seditionive sood at, so good.
I love an event plan I love planning other people's events and my own events.
You have been a bridesmaid for like eighty five thousand people.
Yeah, six six times, actually close to eighty five thousand, Like it's really close, but like it's close.
It's in the ballpark in the general vicinity of s eighty five thousand. Yeah, but you've planned about eighty five thousand events for those people.
I've also planned about eighty five thousand of my own in the lead up to getting married. It's like an extravagance. It's like I'm some kind of I think I'm royalty. I don't. I just love getting people together, and like I think it just ties in with my life of being with friends and family, Like it all just kind
of ties in. And the other thing I love doing yet so cooking, having a night out, love a glass wine, I love reading, and I think one of the benefits well, there was a few kind of silver linings to COVID for me, but one of them was reinvigorating my love of reading and not like on a tablet like I can't deal with kindles and showed like a book like a phissy paper book, the paper, the smell. I don't know, it's nerdy thing. Maybe I love the smell of the book.
I love with bookstore. I love spending hours like walking around a bookstore.
Oh my whole like everything I earned in COVID was bookstore.
Literally. I love the book and rearranging it onto like a different.
You are like my visual merchandiser all over the country.
It's so many talents lawyer by Davy and by night. Yeah. So, and I love reading. I'm I'm an anxious person and I just find that it calms my brain. It's certain kinds of books, like a thriller disgusting. Why does that work for my anxiety? Do not know? It's like watching like a crime show and I'm just like go to bed and sleep like a baby afterwards, which is so weird.
Yeah, you know you're speaking my language the same way that James to you is like IR reality TV. Nick is like, E, why do you watch Serial Killers to go to sleep? I'm like, you know what, don't question your ya, don't question it, just let me go with it.
Yeah, so you're reading TV people, that's it. I do some self care stuff, but like, honestly, I could like never get a facial and be fine if I got to see my friends and family and read a book and cook a meal and you know, like that they're the things that make me happy. And I've become better at doing those things over time. I think I didn't at the start of my career disasters own. That was
like there was like zero cat time. It was like must burnout, must work harder, must be Harvey specter, female form.
But that's part of it, right, It's like your part. THEA is that it's starting out not knowing what you're doing in any area and then slowly, slowly, bit by bit, figuring out what works for you and then doing it and it I mean, well, well, you know, I suck at it. The first thing I said when I got on this call was I am so depleted, Like I spend my entire life telling other people not to do that. And then we rock up and we're like, so, I'm Michelle,
I'm a human, hay me. But that's like, that's being human. I feel like it's better to present reminding everyone that we don't all get it right all the time.
No, and I definitely don't get it right all the time. And I have lots and lots of breakdowns. I mean, one of the things that has gotten me through my career has been crying a lot. Just get it out. I have a crying corner at home, like you know that scene of the Symptoms where it's like this is
where I come to cry. That's literally like, yeah, I just think we all need to make time for ourselves though, because I actually think being a better version of you socially or or whatever socially looks like to somebody some people don't like people makes you a better professional as well, and gives you time and space to think about what you want to do and what your next step is and who you are and you know, all of those existential crisis things that again, when we go back to
all the time we do.
Actually, so guys, one of our playsta in our little group, which the weirdest thing I'm not in their year level, like I just kind of got to do though it's so weird, Like I nearly went to your reunion, not mine. It was so weird. Anyway, there's like a group of us and they're all in one year level. I was ear below, but I just kind of like, I don't know,
just got ad opt into the group. And one of the things we love to talk about because we all have like these personas that our nerdiness doesn't fully fledge, like it's not fully fledgedly fledgingly out and about. But when we get together, like just something about it comes out. And at your bridal shower the other night, we all just were like, you know what, now is the time
to discuss space as a concept. Let's talk about space, yea space time distance like always the existential crisis, but we have this super intellectual rationalization of all the things we feel and it goes for hours hours.
And then easily flip into a non intellectual conversation. Absolutely also that, yeah, that's kind of play the yay stuff though, Like that's the stuff that makes me happy and the stuff that I need in my life, you know, I like.
To get in the space.
Cuts so excited for their new show I can't even tell you.
I'm like, god, I know I don't relate, but I love that for you, good girl.
I'm god. I love them so much. Like why why someone actually said to me? Where was I when someone was like you look at me like Kim Kartashi, And I was.
Like did you die?
Like literally, I told the lady I wanted to marry her in a bathroom. I was in a bathroom somewhere for sure.
Yeah. Nice.
That tends to me where I have these conversations. Yeah, hot, but reality TV. See this is my reality TV thing. I played a gay.
I love it.
Oh, I have to. I actually wrote them down. Do you want me to read them to you?
Yes? Please?
Okay, I have too. One is very like career based, and I think I've sat it like four trillion times. All these courts of people are gonna be like fuck, oh, please stop saying that, but I'm going to say it again. And one is like what I live my personal life by. Okay, so my career one is don't talk yourself out of the rooms. You have the right to be. That's a big one. I love my favorite. You deserve if you are there, you deserve a right to be. There. I say this to James all the time and he thinks
I'm like Oprah. I still love Oprah, But yeah, I think that's a that's really it's a really powerful quote. If you are in a room, or you think you deserve to be in a room, be in the room.
Yeah, so that's one. I also love that. You and I like we either say trillion, gazillion or five. There's like no numbers in between for us. There's only like I've said it one trillion times or two times. Of course, it's either all or I.
Say all the time. Like never, I have never narrator she has many times, but you Never's like, why are you so extreme? I was like, I don't know, but again, you know what, if you don't like it, you can leave. No one's forcing him to marry again with the extremism.
It down could just say.
And anything else you're literally you go straight to if you don't like it, you can leave.
Yeah, we can get a divorce before we're even married.
Literally, sound like I have a very unhealthy it's a very healthy relationship. Everybody.
It's just we're so excited for you to get married.
Oh my god, stop it. I know we haven't even mentioned that. Everyone. Seventh day, Okay, wedding extravaganza.
It'll be splashed all over the newspapers. Everyone will see it. It's like it's like newspaper.
My parents have already discussed this. It's stop it. I can't excited.
I'm too excited.
So to all your listeners who are readers of the Neil Scores Moss, yeah, well.
They're also all going to say if my social media will be breaking plates for weeks after.
So fun. You can just go.
It's very not related to your wedding. I'm just going to do it because I like very cathartic.
Like if you've ever been to a smashroom, you know how good you feel after a smashroom. That's how you can be in to breaking plates excited. I took a baseball back to a washing machine and it was literally ill let out some energy I don't even know I had. James's are you okay? My other quote is and another one that I like love a lot, and I know you've probably mentioned a few times this is not groundbreaking.
Is the Maya Angelou quote. The people will forget what you said, people forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. My big thing in life is anytime I see somebody, how do I leave that person?
We're friends?
Yeah, I just think the people that I now have in my life in my thirties are all so important to me. Do I leave you feeling happy and loved and supported and heard and all of those things? And if I don't, then I haven't done my job as a friend or a sister or a child or whatever. Right. I also carry that into my professional life to some degree.
Sometimes I'm a bitch, but you know that's balance. But yeah, they're my two probably my favorite quotes that I genuinely I live by, And the first one, in particular when it comes to work given this mini series, is one that I constantly repeat to myself in situations where I feel like I have imposter syndrome, which is often like, you have a right to be here, be in the room, be present, deliver what you know that you can deliver, and walk out knowing that you've done that.
Oh my gosh, my love. This was the first of the episodes of the miniseries that I've recorded, and I kind of feel like I can leave it there, like I kind of feel like you were just so amazing and yeah, it's just it's a mini series of one. Everyone just.
Back next week drunk with more lectures than advice.
We will pick a different theme every week within the mini series and that will be the show.
Yeah, next week, Yelvis, let's talk about moments where your mom your mom let you go to primary school? Dress is Elvis?
Let's talk an in depth analysis by CZA. Thank you so much, my darling. This was extraordinary. You are an amazing human being. I'm so grateful to have you in my life and so so grateful that you could share so much of your wisdom with the apehood.
Very grateful to be here, so thank you