Hello, beautiful people.
Another week, another re release and another intro recorded from my phone because we are in Morocco. You might have heard that we are taking two weeks off recording because we've been away and she's also overseas, and our incredible audio editor has gone away to get married and have his wonderful honeymoon.
He very much deserves a break.
So we thought these days we are taking a much gendler approach on ourselves, and instead of creating a lot of n ATA, we would just re release some episodes and then come back with a bang.
We will be.
Back with some incredible guests, one of which is Tony Lodge, one of our very favorite people. So that will be coming to your ears soon. But for now, enjoy this re release and thank you so much for your patience. Hope you're all seizing your ya.
I think that's one of the skills about being an adult is accepting that you might not have done it the right way, or that there could be a better way. I did think that in my headspace that I'd given everything to Emma Wiggle, and I grew so so much in that role that yes, I felt ready to then grow into another version of me.
Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives they adore, the.
Good, bad and ugly.
The best and worst day will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar.
Sees the Ya is a series.
Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. There aren't many things that evoke more yay than the Wiggles, especially a sunshine colored one. She has now officially hung up per yellow wiggle shoes. Emma what can still radiates like a sunbeam and we are so lucky to have
her here today. As always, it was such a delight to trace back to a younger Emma who never could have dreamed of where she'd end up and with whom I have an earlier very intense dancers life in common. You might have guessed that her love for the arts has been lifelong, but you might not know that Emma is also a skilled filmmaker, has been in Bollywood films one Miss Granny Smith Apples once upon a Time and learned Oslan all before becoming the first ever female Wiggle.
Now she is doing some incredible work with artistic integrations of sign language through her PhD, which you will hear all about in the episode Is There Anything This Woman Can't Do? Emma is also stepping into some beautiful frocks as an ambassador for Froctober this month, and I've popped some links in the show notes to this year's amazing
campaign with the OCRF. Just a little ps before we start, Before any fellow dancers listening, it's likely that some of you are also part of the Itty Biddy Titty Committee along with me the President. And I'm reminded so much lately of how much better you feel moving your body with the right crop, But how hard is it to find fluttering ones that have a little bit of padding like So we've got a little.
Something going on.
It's just such an ata.
But I've been road testing some from Burley on behalf of the neighborhood and have been sharing some reflections on movement and mental health, along with my top picks on TikTok and social media. So those are linked in the show notes for anyone interested. I have done the research for us.
You're welcome.
In the meantime, I hope you enjoy this episode. Emma is such a ray of sunshine, and I hope she brings a smile to your face as much as she did to mine. Emma, welcome to seize thea.
Thank you so much for having me.
I have followed you for the longest time, so I'm having a minor slash major fangirl moment, which I am never very cool about keeping inside my body.
So it's so lovely to meet you.
Oh this is so wonderful. I mean, next time, we'll probably have to have a tea party, like face to face so that we can really embrace the opportunity to see each other.
I feel like we're already best friends forever. The fact that you said tea party and not like go out for a.
Bevy Oh no, I don't drink.
I've got a tea.
Oh she's got a tea, Yes, I can see that. No, I have a tea too, but I don't drink, so I'm always inviting people for tea and they always are confused by that.
Well, I didn't drink for seven years, so I feel like we definitely need to talk about that at some point. But before we kick off, I love to start by asking everyone just a little icebreaker, particularly because most of the country, if not the world, will have known you as one of the very iconic Wiggles, which only very few people in the world have been endowed with such a title, and it's very easy to assume it's all
glamorous and beautiful and polished. But I'd like to ask, what's something really normal about you or down to worth or relatable. What's something that reminds us you're just a normal person.
Oh well, I get up every day quite early to go and feed my goats. You have goats, yeah, and I've just moved to the country to give them a better opportunity of having more land to be on. So me in my pajamas, getting my boots on, gum boots, my raincoats, because it's very rainy where we live, and then driving down the road because currently we don't have
a fence at home. So my goats are being housed at a wildlife sanctuary and I go and visit them every morning and feed all the animals on the sanctuary. So there are twenty rescue goats, there's ten rescue sheep, a rescue pig, wallabies and wombats.
It's obviously very excited about this.
Like it, I can't believe there are rescue goats.
This is amazing. I mean, it's amazing how many animals are either ditched on the side of the road or injured. And I've I've met this beautiful lady in the country who's from Germany and has been living in Australia for over seventeen years and has created the most incredible wildlife sanctuary to care for these animals.
Oh my gosh, I mean, talk about seizing the ya. One of my biggest yeas and ultimate dream I still believe it's possible, is to have a wildlife sanctuary, but specifically, like mine's a bit niche a golden retriever sanctuary where anyone who's having a bad day can just come and roll around in fields of golden retrievers.
You have nailed it. Can it be called fields of gold and Retrievers?
Oh? Absolutely it can.
I think your golden retriever needs to be the icon of like the emblem of the sanctuary, and.
They'll be merchandise, and they'll be all sorts of things. I think we're onto something here. It sounds like a potential collab for the f.
I'm ready, I'm so ready.
Well, the first section of the show is my personal favorite, and it's just tracing back through all of the dot points on your journey to get to where you are today, including via adopted goats and all of the different steps
that that involves. But mainly because, as I mentioned before, often the profile or the chapter when people do kind of have a public profile, the chapter of your life that people walk in on and often meet you in seems like it was smooth, seems like the dots connect in hindsight, so it often seems like you always knew what you wanted to be, or that it was a
you know, an overnight success, which it never is. So I like to trace back to all the chapters that don't really get as much airtime and that maybe you weren't a straightforward and that had a bit of angst or confusion.
About what your pathway was.
So take us back to younger Emma, we have very early ballet years in common. I heard you started when you were four?
I did, Is that the same age as you? Yeah? See, I think I was a bit late to the party, to be honest, you.
Were totally over the hill.
I mean, now, a lot of children start dancing at two, so four to me sounds quite late, but you know, better late than ever, you know, still in the early years. And I really was intending to start Irish dancing first, being very very excited about what I'd seen on TV and predominantly watching The Wiggles as a child in my preschool years, seeing these amazing dances jumping around everywhere with bouncy,
curly hair, and I was like, that is me. And so apparently I persuaded my mom to take me, and she my mom doesn't really have any dance knowledge, nothing zero, so she just toddled me on to the dance school and the teacher at the time said that she felt that I was too young and that I should actually start ballet first, and hence why I started bali and then a year later I joined Irish dancing and I've been doing both ever since.
Oh my gosh, they same. My mom didn't know anything about it either, and I feel like there were so many young dancers who had amazing stage mines, like do their hair and know how to sew the costumes, and my mom was just clueless. And I was the one being a stage bum to myself like well, yeah, just let me do it, I'll do it better, and doing my own hair and everything.
I was exactly that child and my mum. Because Irish dancing has, I don't know, it's quite strange, a very big tradition of curly hair, to the point where now everybody that competes wear's curly hair wigs. Really yeah yeah, yeah yeah, nobody's hair in an Irish dancing competition is real.
So when I was young though, about five six seven, competing, we all had our natural hair, but my friends and other people competing would go to school the whole two days before the weekend with their hair and curlers.
I did, like like those tide ones, like the tide ones.
I was the only person that didn't have my hair in curlers. Because my hair is naturally very curly, and so my mom and I would arrive and she'd go, what should we do to make it look like we've been curling your hair all night? And she would like pretend to scrunch it be and like pretend to take out a curler that we borrowed from a friend. But I never had curlers, And so by the time it was more trendy to wear a certain type of curl, because that's what would happen over the years, different types
of wigs became on brand or in trend. Should I say, we're in fashion and my curl my natural hair, right, it wasn't trendy. So I wore very untrendy hair for competitions for a few years, and then I said to mom, I'm so sorry, but I need to wear a wig. She was devastated, but also grateful.
Oh my gosh, So you learn something new every time I do an episode. I learned something new about a niche community that just makes me feel like I've entered this whole other world. And I can't I believe that, Like, who knew that even curly haired people, Yeah, like naturally curly head people, that's not enough we need wig curls.
It's also you know, and I can understand it now, you know, from and also from wearing a week during my time at the Wiggles to save my hair and to keep it continuous for such a long time doing Irish dancing and jumping around for a minute and a half. Your hair doesn't come back from that.
Just no bouncing back.
There's no bouncing back. The bounce has to be unrealistic for it to be real. Energy.
Well, one of the things I love to talk about with people who are in careers in the arts is the fact that a lot of us begin our earlier years dancing, particularly young girls, we often go into ballet and I was one of the few who actually took it. I mean, my Taybe personality thought that I was professional from the time I was like five and a half. But I took it very seriously and ended up at Australian Ballet for quite a few years.
What.
Yeah, So when I was reading about you going to the McDonald College, I.
Was like, we used to compete against you guys.
That's amazing. Were you at the school?
Whether we're born in the same year, so I feel like we might have don't.
Maybe, oh no, I wasn't good enough. I wanted to be. It was my dream, but I wasn't. My legs weren't turned out enough, And so I went to Irish dancing because I could bang a lot and make good rhythms. That was basically it.
But what I think is really interesting is that for so many of us, even for me it was a little bit later, but a lot of us end up not pursuing that skill, whether it's dance or song or musical instruments or whatever it is as a career because I think there's a lot of societal pressure to find something really stable and ongoing, or you know, I think there's a lot of dissuasion because it's so competitive, because not many people could make it to the top.
There's so few roles.
And it's interesting what so many people tell their story, talk about being passionate about something when they were younger and then letting it drop away because societal pressure or external pressure or even internal pressure about going to UNI or doing the traditional thing. Did you ever feel that pressure and how did you push through it to keep your love of the arts alive.
I think my personality like yours, and this is why we're now besties. Is that I never ever thought that I would do anything but dance, and dance was everything in my head. I love it. I never even dreamed of doing something. I've never even opened my mind up
to other things. And whilst my dad really had such a big history of rallying cars and doing navigating in rally races, and I would go on the weekends with him and do precision driving and I loved it, I never stuck with her because I was always going back to dance. And I think going to the Donald College and being able to do performing arts every single day, that was a dream as a teenager. I was like, this is the best thing ever. And so I never really thought anything about it until duh, I had an
injury and then everything changed. Everything changed. So whilst it might look like I continued to do what I really loved to do, I feel like there's been so many different pathways. Because I intended on being a premium ballerina, I never even got there. That never even happened.
Wow, it's funny.
The quote that I often say on the show when we're doing this sort of steps up the staircase exercise is that things almost never turn out how you plan them, but often they turn out better, and it's usually how they were supposed to happen. You just didn't realize at the time exactly how did you redirect? Was it the injury that then sort of was that sliding doors moment of I have to go sideways or I have to choose something else.
I was accepted into the school with a ballet scholarship, and hence why I was just I just loved ballet. I was so excited. I was doing my exams and doing it every single day of the week. And then I came back on the first day of term two in year eight and I'll never forget it, and the teacher was like, you know, take it easy, don't go
too crazy. And we had to do I guess for simple purposes, basically a turning jump in the air, and the teacher was like, you can try a double, but don't you know, if you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. Of course, I went to try for the double and landed on the outside of my foot and snapped the ligament across my oh to which she heard the sound. The teacher from the other side of the room, which was about ten meters away, and then I got up and I was like, no, there's no problem at all,
because I didn't want to admit that I'd stuffed it up. Anyway, about five seconds later, I was on the floor and had to be taken to hospital. So at that point my dreams of dancing on point were gone, and I was devastated, and I, you know, there was a whole reason why I was going to the school and ballet and all this drama. So luckily the school was like, you don't have to worry because we've got dance stream next door and you can try jazz. And I was
like jazz. What. I'm like, I'm not really that jazzy.
What is this nonsense you speak of?
What is this tap thing? And because I was like, I'm just an Irish dancer and they were like, no, there's tap and I was like me, like, I've tried it before, but you know, I'm it's not my forte, but I'll give it a go. And so I was basically relocated to the studio next door, which obviously doesn't sound like a big deal, but then I met an entire world of teachers, friends, people, classmates, and I just
fell in love with commercial dance. So my ballet, even though it's been there forever, ended up being secondary to my primary love, which ended up being jazz, and I was obsessed and hip hop. I was just obsessed at school, obsessed.
I love this so much because even within a life pathway, even within dance, Like people outside of dance probably don't understand how dramatic the difference is, but even within that, you still often set yourself on this one very rigid pathway and then something will just happen that redirects you to another whole area. And like, without the injury, even though I'm sure at the time it felt like the end of your life, you would never have known that
jazz and commercial dance was your thing. Like, how do you unless you try different things, you don't know what you like and what you don't like. But ballerinas are very fixated. I'm like, I will not do any other discipline. But I love that it was an injury that showed you what the rest of your.
Life could be.
Well, I'm so grateful for the challenges that were presented to me, not just in class, but in terms of body and how your body works and reacts to those kinds of situations ended up being another point of sliding doors when I had another injury, and I'd never had any injuries ror to this time, but I was way too enthusiastic, like, way too enthusiastic with everything and just wanted to do my best at all times. So I really threw myself in there.
Literally, that sounds really foreign to me.
That's really weird.
I any of those concepts.
No, no, no, don't, I don't know what you're talking about.
And unfortunately, in year ten, I had another injury and it was much more dramatic and significant, and I ended up really hurting my back badly and I was dropped in a lift and you know it just I didn't recover well, oh my god, I actually not recovered so currently and since that day, I have wedge compressions between three of my vertebrae and my spine and I never ever gained flexibility again in that region of my spine,
which means I can't do an arabesque. I find it very difficult to do anything with my leg behind me, and so hence why Irish dancing ended up being really useful because it's only the front and you know, unfortunately, I lost that dream. So even though I can watch ballet and my brain is just so completely embroiled in what everyone's doing and I can understand it technically in my brain, my body cannot perform it. That really took a long time, and that when I was in year ten.
I then didn't do any of the dancing at school, nothing, because I was so injured and it was really difficult. So the school were trying to make sure that I still had positive spirits, and they moved me to the kindergarten room to read stories to kindergarden goshu and okay.
And who knew how useful that would become.
No, exactly, So I spent half the time with kindie or prep, and then half the time with my art teacher, who was also like, come here, I will protect you. And she was like, this is our media room and we had those old school Mac computers, computers that were colored on the back, you know, those massive One was red, one's yellow. Yeah, So that room I'd never even been in, and she was like, why don't you set yourself in here? There's some really cool programs on the computer. And at
that point I didn't know anything about filming. Or video or editing or nothing, and I just ended up falling in love with Final Cut Pro and ended up editing all films for the school. For all of my projects, I switched every performance out for a video because I couldn't dance Wow, And I ended up being in love with video editing. And again I would never have picked it. Never.
Oh my gosh.
The list in itself is so cool, like the things that you end up falling into, and also that people who meet you now would have no idea that you were like such a gun at Final Cut Pro, like of all things. But then also when I was reading your bio, I was like, okay, but also Bollywood movies, and then you became its Grannie Smith Apple and then you learn Osland, like how a do all those things happen?
But b like one of the things as well, with dance qualifications or you know, anything in the arts, it's really hard to then know. It's it's hard anyway to figure out what your interests translate to in terms of a job, but when your skill is in the arts, I think it's even harder because it's so broad. It could be so many different things and so many different disciplines. How do you become their first female Wiggle?
Like, how does that even exactly?
I feel something that it feels like it just doesn't feel real. And when you were speaking before about you know, the chapter that people know you for, interestingly, the chapter of being the first female Wiggle was a chapter I would never have imagined and it was so out of the blue because no woman had ever been a Wiggle before. And so when I had finished UNI, I hadn't actually finished.
I was still there and trying to do media arts at UTS because my video editing at high school ended up helping me get there, and I went to film school, and you know, just was going on the normal trajectory of going to UNI because there wasn't enough dance work, but still auditioning for everything, Like I auditioned for every musical,
every show. I got nothing. No, I was always rejected or I got to a point where I was down to the last two a few times for Wicked and Cat same and it was you know, I'd get really close because I'd go in as a dancer, not as a singer because it wasn't my training and I never really did any of that, And then i'd always get to have to sing, like get to the singing part, and the lady of that to me, She's like, well, clearly you're not a singer, and I said yeah right,
and she goes, why haven't you been doing singing lessons? And I was like, I'll try and do that, and then I left and I was like, I couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford a private singing lesson whilst I was at UNI. So then a few weeks later, I went to audition again. I think it must have been for hairspray or something, and she was on the same panel and she saw me again, and then I walked in there and she goes, don't lie to me. You haven't done a singing lesson since I've seen you last time.
And I was like, no, I haven't. She goes get out, and I was okay, I'm not leaving. So at that point it was very clear to me that all of my friends that i'd been to dance school with, or I went to full time dance as well, and I was doing all the same things that everyone else was doing. That was trying to audition your little heart out to try and get a show. I just it wasn't a love for me as in I was always nervous as soon as it came to the singing. I was like,
this is stressful. And I naturally then fell back into film editing, and at the time I had my own production company, and I was filming lots of different things for different people. It was weddings or dance concerts or show reels, and so that ended up being a huge part of my life. And I just happened to stumble across the Wiggles audition which asked very specifically for a ballet dancing fairy, and I was like, that is me.
And I went to the audition and got it. So it was out of the blue, and it wasn't, you know, an arduous process. I was there for the whole day, which was a long time, but you know, compared to some of the other auditions we were doing for Disney and you know, for the other big musical companies, it was relatively smooth that audition process.
WHOA, oh my gosh.
I had no idea that you had kind of moved not away from the arts, but that you were doing a whole different career at the same time as auditioning, but not really like you were already working in musical theater or anything, and then just this audition just came up and then bang, first female Wiggle.
Well it's so strange because I think even when myself and Locke and Simon had become this new lineup of the Wiggles back in twenty thirteen, a lot of people had assumed that the three of us had auditioned for those roles. And it was an interesting realization not just for us but for the audience that no, we just happened to be part of the company in different roles,
all playing different characters. I toured with Locky for a bit at the beginning, then I toured with Simon and Lockie wasn't on that tour, and then all three of us were on the tour, but as different roles dancers, musicians, you know, circus acrobats, and then we were chosen to be a Wiggle and it was we were offered, we were invited, and that was a really really special opportunity. And again because we weren't thinking that we were being watched.
You know, obviously the company was watching, but we were going about our general everyday life of being a performer on show. That just felt bigger than life, and I never imagined that I would ever even be there as a Wiggly Dancer in the first place. So I was stop.
Wiggly Dancer.
I know it's a good title. It's a good title.
Yeah, it's so good.
The Wiggles alone, like that title you were a Wiggle, like Wiggle in the singular is the cutest thing I've ever heard.
In my entire life.
But like, the Wiggles are absolutely iconic, and as you mentioned, you grew up watching them. We all grew up watching them. Generations have grown up with the Wiggles as such a big part of their life, and it's I can't even imagine how weird it would be to then be like, oh my gosh, I am one of these. For the youth of Australia. This is so wild And it lasted like nearly ten years. That was ten years ago in twenty twelve, when you like got invited to become a Wiggle.
So I feel like we all know the Wiggles, we all have like fond memories. But in terms of like the behind the scenes of being a I feel like that's the stuff that most of us would probably have absolutely no clue about. Can you give us some of the highlights of like the behind the scenes, Like what is it like, especially being the first female and having no clear model of what a female wiggle looks like? Like how were those nine years? Like that's a huge question, I know, but yeah.
I think what was wiggle life like?
I mean, it was amazing. It has been the most amazing chapter of my life. And it is weird to talk about that my entire twenties was spent wiggling. So for me, it's almost like going to university, like a different one. So you've been to one and then another
one maybe, and then you go to another one. You're like, I'm going to do this degree, and then you're there for ten years, and it's like it feels like you're there with your schoolmates and you've all been through the same situations and challenges and we've traveled the world together and we've made these close friendships. And so that particular chapter is so dear to me. And I learned things that I never thought that I would do, like sing in front of a lot of people and spared the
begems out of me. And I am still so grateful for everything that everybody imparted on me and in particular Lockie, who helped me learn how to use my voice in storytelling and also for finding me all the harmonies that I needed so that I could participate in a different key because a lot of the songs, particularly when I joined at the very beginning, were all written for male voice tones. So when it was you know, when we were trying to shuffle things around and like what can
you sing and what can you sing? I was like, I can't sing anything because it was either really low or really high. And I was like, this is such a struggle. But it was a great challenge to have because then you know, it took me ages. It took me probably a good four years to find where my voice would be useful, I guess, and also recognizable, And it took me a long time to work that out.
That's fascinating because again that's something that like no one would have thought about that they were written for a male voice box and then suddenly it's.
Like, oh, we have a female wiggle.
How do we work like this in in a complimentary way, And it's funny that people would assume that you just solve that straight away.
But four years, like it's good. Things take time.
Yeah, it took me ages. But also something to recognize with the group was that it was founded by amazing people with such a great musical background and foundation within themselves. So they were all musicians. All the og Wiggles know how to play something, so it's natural for them to pick up an instrument and play it, and usually with the band then, because most of them were in a band together before the Wiggles. You know, it's the we pick up the guitar and we start playing in the
key of E because that's normal key. And so most of the songs initially were written based on songs that they'd previously played or were derived from other melodies that they've played, you know at the par but UNI like, you know, growing up as a musician is a world
that I don't know about. But that was obviously a huge part of their life which transferred over to The Wiggles, and it was why it was so catchy and relatable because these were the kinds of musical riffs and melodies that were comfortable for them and people were already singing along to them, so that made sense. And so when when I came and I was like and here's the KIV and I was like, oh, that's a bit high. Hell, I think I was just a disappointment to myself and
to them that time. I was like, oh dear. So you know, as the show went on and we had such a beautiful positive response from people around the world, which took many years as well, it rendered the idea that Emma Wiggle might do her own show, and so when that came through, that was a stressful, be surprising, and see I was like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do about this singing? But then it gave us an opportunity to write songs that were in my key and that changed everything for me, and then I
worked out where I could sing. But also it should be noted that I don't have a very big vocal range, so I wasn't able to help them out very much.
But one thing that's coming through so strongly in such a beautiful way for everyone listening is that that we talk so much on the show about self doubt and imposter syndrome, but particularly how acute that becomes when you first start something new, Like it's a good sign that you're getting out of the comfort zone, but then you've also kind of got to deal with it so you
can actually do the thing. But that part of it as time goes on, has been for you finding the things that work, like acknowledging that you don't have a big range. There are times when you overcome self doubt by fixing the problem and extending your range, and then there's times where you just figure out, you know what, that's my wheelhouse that isn't and working around it and not constantly putting yourself in situations it's going to set you up for failure, that's going to, you know.
Ramp up the self doubt all the time.
It sounds like it's been such a beautiful process of feeling terrified at the start, finding friction points and kind of working around them to then start to work with what you do have and with what you are good at, and with what you are comfortable with.
And one of the most beautiful things about being in that particular role was that I got to have my own name and I was myself, and that's something that I'm very grateful for because a lot of people that I went to school with that ended up getting jobs in musical theater were playing different characters and there was different names and you have to embody a different character and it's not you, whereas we were embraced to bring
our personality. And hence why I think I had such a rigorous training, you know, decade of figuring out what is that? Because I am I what am I doing here? And you know, I'd constantly say to the group, I'm just a dancer. I just want to do the dancing and they'd be like, no, no, you can sing sing trinkle, trinkle a little stu. I'm like, oh, that's a really hard one. Like surprisingly, twinkle Twinkle is really hard just putting it out there. It's a really hard so it's
a really hard song. My favorite song is open Shut Them is really I think that's where it came into my own Open Shut Them, and it's a it's dear to me, like I don't want to be that kind of singer, but initially I was trying to be so in the first couple of albums you can hear it, I try some vibrato which I don't have, and it was when I listened back, I like, I just have to leave the room. It's horrible because I was trying
to be somebody else. That's why it took so long for me to realize what was comfortable in my voice, and people were connecting with my voice over time because it was clear. I realized that because I was doing a lot of the storytelling, that seemed to be my niche and it made me more comfortable because I was telling the story to children. And as soon as I could pay attention to the children and relay the story
to them, I stopped thinking about myself. And as soon as that happened, then I wasn't worried.
Yeah, that's so interesting and it's funny you said that. I feel like this is the your equivalent of what I say to people, like in business, for example, when they talk about how they, you know, cringe when they look at their first logo or the first version of their products. I'm like, if you don't need to leave the room when you hear the first rendition of something that you did, then you haven't grown enough, Like you're supposed to cringe over version one, you know, that's the point.
You know. Now, in this technological age, there's a lot of forums and discussions online and there's so many interesting discussions about the change in my voice and like why did she sing like this in twenty fourteen and then in twenty and sixteen she sounded like that, And I'm like, wow, people are really a tentive to identity through voice as well. And I think because we had to do so much talking and dialogue and live shows, you know, the range of our voice was it was such a big part
of that role. And so the singing element was always really freaky to me. But once I could get comfortable with my arrangement of songs or what I was singing, then yeah, I think it got to yeah, twenty sixteen and I was like, I'm I'm ready, And twenty eighteen I was like, this is good. I'm good. I know where I'm singing and it's from and I'm fine with it. That's amazing.
So a couple of questions coming to mine now. So firstly, given that the digital age has as that decade progressed, made you know, given you quite a profile and made like the Wiggles, we already or knew who the Wiggles are. But then as a person, people get to know, like you know who you're dating and what you're doing and how your voice is changing, and they've got comparison and stuff.
Did you struggle at all with as you mentioned as well, being the first female Wiger was very well received after a while, but that, like the digital age, also makes criticism quite instant for you as well. Did you struggle with that profile building process and that kind of real time feedback in the beginning, but also did you struggle with your audience being children, Like did you ever kind of get to the end of the day and be like, oh, I want to speak adult or did you.
Like that children are the best? And to be honest, I'm so grateful that they were our audience because they're so embracing and it wouldn't matter if you looked like a chicken. They'd be like, this is great. So it really, you know, you get saved with the children's audience because they're just so excited that you're there. With technology, there's positives and negatives, and the real positive is that we could connect with people around the world, which was amazing.
So our music content was being watched by people in other countries all at the same time, and then people would be writing to us live and oh I love this song, which is fantastic. And of course the negative, as we know, the criticism is very, very high. But I do think that being a dancer, I was so used to being told what not to do, and so for me, I was never worried. I was like, yeah, okay, sure,
we'll take that on. But again, I mean sometimes if you read things over and over again, or it's the same comment that's coming up, you can take that on in a way. But I would try and think about it as a critique and try and improve what I
was doing. So a lot of the comments my voice, which were very pronounced, I was like, yeah, okay, you're right, my voice was a bit terrible on that one, and then I would try and make improvements to make it better or clearer or more recognizable and more like myself rather than pretending I was Ariana Gruande, which I'm not. I love her, but I'm not Ariana.
That's really interesting because I agree with that. I feel like being a dancer, And this is why I want my kids eventually to one day I don't have kids yet, but one day my future children to do things like dancing or sport, because I feel like you get a thicker skin, like you get a tolerance and a resilience to criticism, possibly it went too far when I was a young dancer, but you grow the ability to self critique and to take on criticism and improve, like to
take that on and not think, oh, it's my value as a human is worse. But maybe I should just I don't know. I feel like I've got a much higher tolerance for negative feedback. I mean, I don't love it, but I think those earlier years really helped me now move on faster when I get negative feedback.
And it's I mean, I like to call it feedback, just as a blanket feedback, so that it has the opportunity to be positive if it needs to be, and even if it is directed with a sad tone, there's always an opportunity in that. And I think totally as a dancer, it wasn't that it was necessarily harsh, even though it might come across like that. It was always about improving you as a better day totally, and it's never given in a way that's you know, it's really hard.
I think it's hard. You're right, if you're a dancer, or if you're in that kind of environment. Same with a sporting team or you know, a specific discipline that requires routine practice and rehearsal and performance and all those kinds of elements. There's something that you just get used to and it's actually really helpful. Otherwise it really puts you in a position where you can't self reflect, and that value to not be able to reflect on yourself
is that's hard. I think that's one of the skills about being an adult is accepting that you might not have done it the right way, or that there could be a better way. But you know, our dance teachers were always like other leg different leg higher, get up there, turn it out like it wasn't a personal critique, it was to help.
You be better, absolutely, And I found the hardest teachers that were the scariest were often often the ones that if I was, yeah, if I was really dedicated to getting better.
I'd want them.
I wouldn't want the softer ones, which maybe like a bit bit of a psychological thing going on there.
I think in terms of growing resilience, it's really about accepting feedback that's outside yourself. And also, of course taking things is with a grain of salt, naturally, and as technology tells us and shows us, you know, you can't listen to everything and take on board everything that's written about you, because it can be super weird.
So it's really interesting that you mentioned that around twenty sixteen you started to get a little bit more like, Okay, I'm in my groove, and then by twenty eighteen you were like, I've got it, this is ready, I've found my groove and I'm ready. And then that in twenty twenty one, after like nine years, the Wiggles chapter ended.
And I think one of the things that can be really difficult is when you're doing something that you absolutely love and you do get really comfortable, It's like, how long do you stay in that comfort before you agitate for a new chapter? How do you know when it's time to grow into something else? How do you know when you've not become complacent? But how do you know when your growth in a particular area it's time to shift your focus? How did you start your next chapter?
How have you unraveled your identity as a Wiggle and then started crafting post wiggle Emma, Like, how did that whole shift kind of happen for you?
They are so many questions.
By the way, sorry, there's like eight hundred questions in like one thing. But the whole, like as I'm sure you can tell, the whole progression of a journey is so fascinating to me. And I think people are very scared of their journey having many many steps, but actually the best journeys do have many steps, and sometimes the step falls in your lap, but sometimes you have to be ready to take it as well, and that sometimes
involves a lot of self reflection. And yeah, I just I'm so curious how did that come about for you? Because being yellow Emma Wiggle, I'm sure you could have done that forever and had the happiest life.
Oh. Absolutely. And you know, I can reflect on some of the interviews that I did in the decade where I would say and truly believe that I would be there till I was sixty, and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not being a Wiggle forever and ever and ever. And you know, a part of that chapter will always be a part of me. So in some ways, yes,
it will continue on forever. But in terms of being brave enough, as you mentioned about going into something new or you know, taking that leap, I don't even know if I was brave, but I just took a punt and I felt that that chapter to grow into something else and to learn even more skills. Felt like that that might be a good time, but I didn't know if it was going to be a great time. I just thought maybe now, But it wasn't cemented in my brain as like I have closed it off, you know,
and this is everything that I can achieve. However, I did think that in my headspace that I'd given everything to Emma Wiggle in that time, and I was so I got in such a swing. It was so so comfortable and got so comfortable doing the shows, and I grew so much in that role that yes, I felt ready to then grow into another version of me. And I guess what's interesting is that that took a long time. I probably have only really come to terms with that
now a year later from making that decision. I guess it will always take time because we're always constantly growing. But understanding that it is segmented in chapters has been so helpful for me because now I think that was that chapter, as you mentioned before, and now I'm onto this new chapter. But life is a series of chapters, so we have to constantly progress and move forward and improve.
And it became apparent to me because I was studying at the same time, working out ways to include visual communication with media for children through my PhD, that it just became I can't even explain it. It's just really strong in my waters. It's really like, I don't know what it is, but a part of my passion is movement. I love dan and I love visual communication and I
love learning sign language, and it just became overwhelming. And at the time of the pandemic, when we weren't touring, it gave me a lot of time to do a lot of that writing the research, and I was like, you know what, there's a lot to be had here. We have not done enough in Australia. And I thought, okay, if I'm going to make this opportunity now to try and contribute to this area of research, it needs to be now. And so I took a leap, but I
didn't know what was going to happen. Really, I just took it.
But do you know, I feel like sometimes it's better that you do that. I feel like sometimes those leaps, if you did know what was involved, you wouldn't leap like the Nativity about what's going to happen. It's rip the band aid and do it because then also when you end on a high, you have no resentment about staying somewhere for too long.
Like I had the best time. I had the best time, and it was really that. It was like a burning instinctive feeling that I was right right, I need to be able to contribute to our content in Australia, particularly in the children's space, because I love it and it's where I have the most experience. There needs to be more I could see more. I felt from experiences that were being told to me that there was a lack of accessibility in children's media and media in general, but
especially in the children's space. And I was like, right, I'm doing it. They just took a leap.
And you just did it.
Can you please put Emma Wiggle as your name on your PhD? Like can it be doctor Wiggle because that would be amazing.
I feel like a lot of the children. I remember when we were talking to people about yeah PhD, and so parents would explain that to children as being a doctor. A lot of children felt that I was going to be a medical doctor. So it was a very confusing title. So maybe we need to come with a new name for it. I don't know what it is.
Yeah, I feel like a lot of PhDs don't use doctor because of that, And I'm like, if I do a whole PhD, you are definitely calling me doctor.
There is no way you're not.
We have we haven't fully got there yet. I feel like we're not quite there, but hopefully at some point we will be. But unfortunately, but also fortunately leaving the Wiggles and that chapter that was, you know, so much a part of my every single minute of every day, now I've been opened up to even more opportunities and challenges about this particular space that I've had to extend the PhD to yield some of these cases to learn
from and write about. And so the PhD was meant to be finished, but because we have met so many people, we have found some new research, we have met people that are doing amazing things. We've also seen a lot lack of accessibility and inclusion. Wow, it's now like, hang on, we just have to hold hold on the submission because hold hold the doctor phone. We have to write about some of this stuff because it's really really interesting and it's going to inform us for the next future of
content creators. Hopefully. So that's why I keep going Hold, I call up the union, like, just hold again, there's something really good here. Hang on a second. This is really interesting. So that's kind of where we're at now.
Oh my gosh, I cannot wait to read it.
I actually love reading people's thesis like I love it. Yeah, absolutely did. I was a lawyer. I did an honest thesis.
Shall I send it to you now? Please? I need please.
I love long film writing and I love editing. I've edited so many people's thesis like, honestly, if you ever need an editor, it makes me very excited.
I mean I was in yourin but.
I absolutely send it my way. So how much time is that taking up? Now you're doing that full time? And obviously we're going to move on to talk about a very exciting ambassadorship that you have. But is Emma post wiggle figuring out? Like I can't even imagine how
you figured out, like in those first days. I remember when I quit corporate and went into business, Like the first month, I was just like I have never known how to do a day of work that wasn't like very structured and very obvious like that someone else wasn't kind of telling me what to do and going from the Wiggles where like the wiggles are no matter who is a wiggle at a certain time, there's like a
structure of how they do their working day yep. And then suddenly you're like, oh wait, I can what.
Am I doing? Yeah?
Like what is life? So how have you figured out what your time is doing? Like?
What are you doing?
That has taken a year and it is that feeling of liberation with time, but also opportunity not just to work and collaborate with other people, Like I've just covered so many people in the last year that are researching similar things to me and are working in this space of creative sign language, And I'm like, how did I not know about you? What about you? Your project is amazing?
And all of these things have really come to the forefront because we've now had time to either receive the messages that have been coming to us some people like I've been trying to contact you for years. I'm like, I never knew about that, and so it's amazing. It's amazing now to have the time to sift through and understand where is everybody at, why are they connecting with the content, what are they looking for? What are they lacking?
What do they need? And that's essentially what we've been doing over the last twelve months in creating a new children's character and making sure that we're delivering the right material.
Is it an osline character? Is that sort of the basis of the thesis?
Well, look, we'd like to acknowledge that Emma Mema, which is the new children's character, is an extension I guess of myself, but maybe an outcome of some of this research. So whilst it's not the actual conclusion, it has elements right it that integrate visual communication for what it needs to be. It is inspired by visual movement, but it's also consulted by deaf talent here in Australia and other
friends of Emma. They may also use sign language. And so we have this beautiful friend of mine that I have known for many years, Elvin, who is deaf himself. He's a dancer, he was from Hong Kong. He moved to Australia learnt ballet at twenty Can we stop them? Wow?
We thought you were over the hill at four, so twenty is like stop it.
Elvin is one of the most inspiring people and I'm just so grateful to have the chance not just to work with him, workshop with him, and he alongside my other friend Sue, who is deaf, who didn't learn sign language until her teenage years. I don't know how. I just don't. I just don't get it. They are the most creative and visually expressive people I've ever met, and
we just this, this is miss is my problem. I get so into it and we learn, we learn so much from each other, and I'm just really grateful now to have the time to spend with these amazing professional artists who use visual communication for everyday life and for their professional life. And it's just yeah, it's taking my breath away. It's just amazing. And that's why I keep extending. I'm like these people, of course, why and and and like,
look at what they're doing. Their work is amazing and what are we learning and how can we connect and just stop me, stop it.
Oh my gosh.
When your thesis does come out, I'm going to do a little shout out back to it in one of
these episodes and then put the linking. I feel like the way listening, who are really fascinating, who will be really fascinated but it's interesting you're talking about how like getting access like as the chapter has closed, it's allowed you not only more time, but to finally take up some of the opportunities and connections that you just didn't have capacity for and you have space for, but that you're able to use the profile that you have to
amplify a lot of causes and things that you're really passionate about that you didn't have time for before because you were wiggling all the time. And now you have a little bit more leeway to amplify things in society, and one of them is f October, on which, as we all know it's October. It tell us about F October.
I also am upset with myself that I also did not know much about F October before this year, and again, traveling so much and being immersed in different situations in
different countries, you get overwhelmed with information. Whilst I knew about for October as a general concept, which is for everybody a month obviously of October for the chance for everybody to frock themselves up or dress up in their favorite frocks, and it's to raise awareness about ovarian cancer, not just here in Australia but overseas two and it really is about donating to the Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation
to create more and more resources for new research. So it is again another very interesting trajectory because I had very much the pleasure of meeting the people from the OCRF earlier this year with Witchery and we did the white Shirt campaign to also raise funds for ovarian cancer, and that experience in itself was life changing for me.
And whilst I've had my own situation with endometriosis, which is not the same but in the relative area, I think when you start to talk to people about their own struggles, it just changes the conversation completely and then automatically, yes, your besties, you're having a tea party and you're like, tell me about your problems and what are your symptoms?
That's weird, that's the same as mine. And it's those conversations that are what we're trying to encourage because I think it's when people actually understand that maybe they might have something that's slightly not in the normal spectrum either and unfortunately these diseases are affecting so many people and
so this is why the research is important. But anyway, Earlier in the year, I happen to be on a panel discussion for the OCRF as an ambassador of the White Shirt campaign, and we heard from stories about ovarian
cancer fighters and survivors and I was a mess. I was a literal emotional wreck because the stories from some of these people that are still living with the disease are just felt so real and challenging that it was something that I hadn't been exposed to properly before, particularly in the area of ovarian cancer, which is a very very silent killer for want of a better phrase, and it is just very unknown, unfortunately, and that's why you can get to the very late stages before you know,
and then if you are diagnosed, your trajectory beyond that point can be quite dicey. So when the OCIF approached me to join for Froctober, I was like, yes, but
hold on a second, what about these people? Their stories are so important and I think, really, even though I've joined as an ambassador, I would like to just swibble the spotlight to some of these people that are actually living with the disease and the challenge they face daily and look one of the people and if you have time and you look on the OCRF website, there's an amazing, amazing woman called Leanne, and Leanne has been living with verying cancer for over five years and I just can't
her experience, her stories, the way she talks, the way she lives her life is something that we can all
learn from. And I just the other day when we were launching for October, we got to see Leanne again and she mentioned, you know, I didn't even know if i'd see you again, and I was like, ah again, tears out of my eyeballs, like jumping out, like I just it's amazing the personal connections that we've been able to make just through this campaign alone, and the people and work that is behind the OCRF and the researchers and the scientists and doctors behind Overian cancer research are
beyond amazing, beyond I just can't. I'm stepping back. That's amazing, amazing, it's amazing, it's amazing. That's why I can't be doctoring, because they are really Oh it's crazy, they're beautiful.
It's still it just blows me away. I've also been helping, you know, part of the white shirt campaign for a couple of years and done various things with the OCRF and every time I hear it, like one woman dies every eight hours in Australia, not even globally, but in Australia from overian cancer and yet there's like still no
early detection test. It's just it's so misunderstood, and like I feel like it's one of those things that once you hear the statistic, you just want to scream about that might the issue?
Yeah, go and get.
Checked and your perhaps me doesn't cover it, like all these things that we've just and I think the more it can be amplified and the more conversations you can have, and the more like who doesn't want to get frocked up in October? Like that's the funnest way to get people having a conversation. What an amazing campaign.
You've absolutely hit the nail on the head. It really is about and Leanne talks about this too. It's definitely for October is to celebrate the joy of coming together, but also it has such a juxtaposed message and the fact that a woman dies every eight hours from overi in cancer is overwhelming and for this particular campaign, I was very honored to wear this amazing frock designed by a guy called Jamie and his cousin Jenna very sadly
passed away from OVERI in cancer. And he's put these big glitter bands on the dress that represent the eight hours. And so there's eight gold bands on the dress. That's why you have to come with the photo. But that's why he's.
I've seen it.
It's so beautiful, like and so this is this is going to sound and quite weird. But when I was talking with Jamie about the dress, initially, I said, can we just clarify the eight bands because we were talking about the design and he'd showed me pictures because we hadn't seen each other in real life yet. And I was like, the most it's so bright, it's so joyous, and he's like, oh, it would have been Jenna's favorite it's her favorite color. And I said, you've just you've
done such an amaze. The whole dress is just it is breathtaking. But I said, so are the bands to represent that a woman is diagognosed every eight hours and he goes no, one passes away every eight And I was like, and it's as soon as the facts are in your mind, you cannot get rid of it. And this is what for October is about. It's about how we can support this conversation whilst we may not be suffering from ovarian cancer ourselves, or we might not know it.
It is about bringing this conversation to light and being able to tell as many people as possible. And that really is our responsibility. And that's the only way that I can see my partnership with the OCRF is just being there to strike up the conversation.
Oh well, you're doing an incredible, incredible job. I mean even just hearing you speak about it now, you speak with such passion and that the dress I didn't know about the symbology behind it. I'll have to share share that photo from the from the campaign when we publish the podcast. It's just, Yeah, you are doing a wonderful job. I feel like so moved even hearing you speak about it.
Now when you hear Leanne, Oh, if you're in a room with Leanne, you just bring your tissues. That's all I can say, bring your tissues. And that's I guess. It is important to note that it's not just me frolicking around in any old dress. This particular frocking is so important and is in honor of not just Jenna's life, but of so many many people that have lost the fight with ovarian cancer. And look, I'm just really all
I'm there is I'm just a cheerleader. I am a cheerleader for the research and the foundation.
So for our listeners, for anyone else who wants to frock up in October?
How do we, like, do you register? How do we sort of be part of it?
There's lots of different ways. You could hold your own tea party and dress up.
Oh my god, tea pat like we're actually holding tea parties.
We could. I mean, essentially you have an event, so you can register your event and fundraise that way. You could even fundraise just by donating to one of our other people that have registered online. So if you visit the OCF and you click donate, you can see other ambassadors and people that have been following their campaign for many years, and they just have the most amazing array
of dresses. It's just incredible. Somebody's like, this is the dress I always wear for froc Tober and when it's in the second week of front, I always had this One'm like, that is a amazing. Why haven't I not known about this, and so you can donate to other people's events or other people's fundraising campaigns, or you can just donate yourself to the cause. But yes, for October is about instigating that awareness. But you can donate to the OCRF anytime of the year.
Amazing.
Well, I'll make sure to include links to everything or the information and where you can donate and where you can find other people who are participating as well in the show notes. Emma, thank you so so much for this chat. I feel like I could we didn't even touch on your end. I feel like that I have so many more questions for you, but we'll have to just have a tea party another time. Yeah, have part two.
Very last question for you, since I love quotes so much, if you had to leave our audience with a particular quote that was your favorite, what would it be?
Be a goat? I don't oh, yes, that's only yes. Just boaths to cheeky. They have no inhibitions, so you know, be yourself, be a goat. I love that.
And also go and google if anyone needs to be cheered up at any time any day, go and look up fainting goats on YouTube. Have you seen fainting goats, you know the ones that like they get too excited.
Yeah, and they're muscles. They're so cute. But you can also if you want to look at very cute goats, you can have a look at them on my social media too.
Of course, Oh my god, we should change it to like, Emma goat lover or something.
I had an interview not that long ago, and I think the title of the article was crazy goat lady. I'm like, yeah, that pretty much sums me up.
Yeah that fits. That fits.
But you're also the goat as in like the greatest of all time, so I feel like there's a double meeting going on.
Well, thank you, but just be oh you've seen Yeah, that's not my sheep, but that's a rescue sheep on the on the sanctuary. I know. I'm like, we're His name is Boots, and it steals my goat's food, so we're not best friends.
Wombats, Hello, that's my goat, mom, mom, mom, on like a dog.
Honestly, that's Strawberry. Yeah, she's beautiful Strawberry.
And I actually like puppies.
Yep, yep, yep, yep. They're amazing beautiful animals.
Oh Wow, so much goat content. All right, yeah, hit up Emma Watkins Official.
And invite the goats to your Froctober tea party and dress up, frock up and be a goat. That's what I'm parting with.
Quote of the day amazing, Emma, thank you so much for joining. This was absolutely wonderful and we'll have to do a tea party suit.
Can we please? That would be lovely? Absolutely, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Em as one of those people you can't speak to without having a gigantic smile on your face. I feel like even just listening to her voice you would be smiling. She's such an amazing human being and doing incredible things her PhD. You can find out more about it on her page and Emma Memma, the character she's creating, also has its own page, or you can just check out everything else she's doing on Instagram at Emma Watkins Official. And please do tager if you enjoyed this episode and.
Happen to feel generous enough to share it so that we.
Can keep spreading the yighborhood and the ya as far and wide as we can. Of course, we are so lucky to have had Emma on during the month of for October, and I've included in the show notes links to the os aref's campaign for twenty twenty two, along with some important facts on ovarian cancer, how you can get involved, how you can donate, and where the funds go.
It is an.
Incredibly important cause and it's so important to raise awareness of the fact that it is not very easily diagnosed and spread the word about ocrf's incredible work.
So head to the show.
Notes for that.
And in the meantime, I hope you're having a wonderful week and is seizing your yay man manas