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The brain is a powerful thing, but it can be powerful in like a negative way as well, And I kind of I still probably haven't fully unpacked that time psychologically, so about knowing you can be a man and you're still a man, as well as stepping into some of these other things that for a long time men have been made to feel like they can't be your show. There's a very strong divide between two sides, and both sides are kind of just talking into a void and no one's actually listening.
Welcome to the seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing We work, then we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore, the good, bad and ugly, the best and worst day
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found, Matcha Maiden and Matcha Milk bar CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way.
Lovely Yeahborhood Just squeezing in another guest episode this week before we reconvene four Yays of Our Lives with Ang and of course for our second ever this Yea or That Ya segment, So if you haven't submitted to your questions for that, please do you still have time? Head back to the Last Years of Our Lives episode for
more context on what I'm actually talking about. But basically, this Yea or That Yeah is where we've just decided to add a random segment like you know we like to do, and basically we're answering life's big questions like do you face towards or away from the water coming from the shower head when you're in the shower, or do you go toothpaste then water or water than toothpaste, or as some of you widows do, water then toothpaste then water again, Like what other big life I life
question should we address? Because I feel like they're the things that you only find out about someone when you live with them, and you don't really ever talk about that stuff with people, but we all have a very defined way of doing it. So if you can think of any other questions we should address, please let us know. Anyway, back to this week, we are sneaking in another two guests actually, as it is currently Men's Health Week from
the thirteenth to the nineteenth of June. As you know, while men's health, women's health, or anyone's health and the surrounding conversations about what that means, they're important every day of the year, but we do a dedicated episode every June for Men's Mental Health Week to specifically remind us of some of the major statistics which are often quite shocking, the unique challenges to men's health, and the useful resources
that we have discovered along the way. And they've been such interesting and helpful episodes to me even as a woman, as a wife, as a sister, a friend, a colleague, and the list goes on. I don't think we could be graised with two better guests for the occasion than the absolutely Jens we have with us today for this year's episode, both of whom have actually been on the show before, but who are on together this time because since those appearances they have become friends and co authored
a book. Back for his third appearance is psychiatrist, mental health advocate and former Cuff Club member. A few of you who've been listening along for long enough we'll know about lammy, So of course I am talking about the incredible doctor Kieran Kennedy. And for his second appearance, we also have joining him publisher, author, and former editor of the amazing men's health magazine Scott Henderson, or as some of you may know him, Scotti Hindo. So what an
absolute dream team. If you've been listening along for a while, you'll already know what amazing work these guys are doing, each separately but now also together for men's health and health generally, as well as being fabulous role models in the realm of redefining modern masculinity and men's mental health conversations.
But now they have colleated it all into the handbook we've literally talked about the world needing, perfectly titled The Manual Like Man You wel a practical guide to life, health and happiness from the science behind nutrition and training to the anecdotal surrounding relationships, body image, sexuality. They literally cover it all. I'll let them tell you more about it themselves, because I'm already not doing these incredible humans
justice and their amazing book. This was such a delight funny, it was moving, it was reflective. I think you can hear how much I enjoyed it, and I hope that they did as well, and then also, of course hope that you guys enjoy it as much as we did. Guys, welcome back to Cca.
Thank you so much.
It is so nice to see you both, and so nice to see you guys together because you weren't hanging out the last time both of you did your episode. So to jogging on memory, Scott, we haven't chatted on the show since June twenty nineteen, and Kieran June twenty twenty and June twenty twenty one. So we all skipped our reunion in June last year, and we're back on the first of June this year.
Y I on a schedule only June.
Yeah, exclusively June catchups. Is it a reaining Oh my god, shut up, it's a reainion.
We're like a trio of weird animals that only comes out for ye.
It's like Kieren Scott. Sarah's season is like from the first of June onwards, only Kiran's gone.
Sarah in retrogade.
I think we might be in Full Moon Rising. I'm not sure. So it's just so lovely to see you both, and you have both become really good friends and co authors since I spoke to you last. So it's also really strange and lovely to see you both next to each other.
Yeah, well's colighting.
Well, it's colliding in retrograde. Okay, but oh my gosh. Before we get to how you met, how you decided to become co authors, and this incredible book you've got, we have to catch the listeners up on what's been happening since your last episodes. We've kind of gone through both of your whole lives basically Kieran all the way back to Calf Club and Lammy, as I have labored many times on this show. Oh no, it's frozen.
We freeze the ya.
Sorry, you guys just froze.
Oh there were we made a great freeze the ya. Pun. I don't know's You've better get onto it quick.
Scott. I'm so proud of you. You can't take a magazine and exactly, I mean that's how we were introduced to you back in twenty nineteen. It was as you just had taken over the reins as editor of Men's Health. But since then, I mean, both of you have so many more chapters in your path, yays to catch us up on. So before we go any further, what's happened since then?
Right, you go first? It's a lot. Yeah.
Well, like I say, I guess we last caught up mate in twenty twenty one, didn't we?
So yeah, we caught up in real life probably since then, but on the show was twenty twenty one in fake life in the digital world.
Like coffee and drinks and too Mini scrambled eggs in Melbourne Mini, A catch up's been had.
But yeah, no, it's been great.
I've moved to Sydney, I say, I think since our last on air chats psychiatrist life, doctor life, jumping around the globe, a few travels. Yeah, it's been a wild ride and then writing a book. There's legend in between there somewhere as well.
And you've also gone. I feel like last time we spoke to you, you were hectic in emergency in the hospital, kind of burnt out, really really working so hard. But I have since changed the structure of your work life as well, which has been amazing. So tell us about telehealth and now being out of work like you did a stint in Bali recently. You just come back from North America, Like, tell us how that's all come about.
Yeah, it's just been a really nice period of being able to take some time off and time away, you know, I have some holidays overseas and then just have some flexibility as well while I'm here in Australia with where I work and how I work, And No, it's just been amazing. I think so many doctors will relate to the you know, the sense of you' spend so many years, like we've talked about many a time, all three.
Of us, I've talked about in June only Yeah, only when.
We're away the rest of the year. We're in hibernation.
Hiberation.
Yeah, okay, it's one all.
Your Yeah, so many years of kind of not having so much say in terms of how you work and what that looks like, and so it's yeah, it's been a great little time of popping out the other side and being able to take some more time for books and chats like this one, and just living a little as well.
So it's been so great.
I think it's also really beautiful just you know, on the whole theme of CZA and the ability to change your pathway in ways that you might not have expected and at times you might not have expected, like hospital care and probably couldn't have imagined that you could still be as passionate about psychology, but also have made more room.
Like I remember you were squeezing in your interviews or squeezing in trips to Sydney and the partnerships you really wanted to work on you really couldn't because you couldn't leave the hospital during the day. So I think it's also reassuring to be like, if you envision a different structure, it doesn't mean you have to leave a career completely. You can definitely start to take steps to pivot towards having time to write a book.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And that's been just the beautiful thing for me in the last year or two has just been people to create some space for those other passions and for those things that for so many years, as you know, you know, I've wanted to kind of make time for like writing, like talking about men's health, like the media work. So it's yeah, it's been just very humbling to be able to see that kind.
Of coming around.
Yeah, how exciting. I'm so happy for you, and I've loved just being like, dude, you're in more different countries than I am, and that's saying something. Oh so, Scottie, what have you been up to since June twenty nineteen.
Bed On, because I think I spoke to you when I had maybe just started editing mental health, So I did that, and then obviously pandemics here we got closed down for a while, so started my own I mean I was just kind of sitting on all these interviews and I mean health didn't stop just because kind of mental health stopped, so I kind of wanted to keep writing getting that out there, so started my own thing. Then we managed to get ment Health back on its feet,
which was great. So I went back there for two years, but then left magazines at the end of last year and now I mean book publishing, so still sharing stories, just I guess in a longer format, which is exciting. It's working with some great authors and I'm really excited for those books. The funny thing is with magazines, right, you work on a magazine and it comes out in four weeks, whereas books. I'm working on books now and my books won't come out till January twenty twenty four.
I think my first book comes out, So it's a long, long journey. Yeah.
Wow, what a change of pace.
Such a change of pace, but it's kind of it's nice. It's a lot more considered.
And you know, we were just talking off air about how there's a permanence with books and they're kind of those words live on and those editions are around for a lot longer, so kind of there's a lot more care taking, not more care.
That's disrespectful to magazines, isn't it a lot longer.
Care, different care?
Yeah? Yeah, cool. Well I'll never work in magazines. I guess I got to make it go with this book thing.
I think like my favorite part. And I mean both of you kind of are on podcasts a lot. Scott, do you have your own podcast now? And I've Men's Health had a podcast and you guys are on that together. I think you'll understand that one of my favorite parts of having a show is that I get to track people's journeys, like you have an audio We have an audio record of who you guys were a couple of
years ago in totally different chapters of your life. And like, obviously we've skated through COVID and a whole lot of changes.
But one thing I love is that both of you, I think the bulk of our conversations with both of you was obviously very focused on men's health as a topic generally, but really focused on Scotty you had I think it was just before your first cover maybe had come out, and you were talking about how taking on the reins of such a big magazine you really wanted to redefine the kind of picture perfect image of a Men's Health cover and a men's Health model, and the
stories that you were telling and kier and you and I have only spoken like on Men's Health Week issues in particular and the psychology around men's body image, and you guys have consistently been talking about the same things, And even if it's in a different format now, I think it's so cool that this book has come to
fruition as something that is like reading your words. I'm like, we literally spoke about this, you guys have been passionate about this for going on, like well your whole lives really but it's so cool that now you know it is coming out in a more permanent form as a kind of guide.
You know.
I think we actually said in those episodes, we wish there was something we could give the modern man and that women could also read as well to understand the challenges that are unique to masculinity. And that's what your
episodes were for me. I was like sharing them, like, guys, you need to understand, but get this out there, and you've done it, and now it's physically a manual, like literally the manuals and the two of you together like it just to me, I'm you know you guys know I bang on about the dots connecting like this is the biggest like collision of worlds that is just so exciting to me. So congratulations, thank you.
It is so like it's quite surreal to like, especially like when we're talking about like you know, back when Scotty was with men's health and how we met through that and then the pandemic, you know, just all of how it's come around and how we've both.
Just been actually interesting pandemic story. So I think you and Nikki were the last people that I saw, because I was in Melbourne right before the very first lockdown, and I think we went out to breakfast around the f one and then I flew back to Sydney and they wouldn't let me into the office and so they sent me home just because I'd been on a plane.
Oh my gosh, you were like the last humans I had contact with, and then I never saw anyone ever again. Yeah.
Wow, So I really got you through the pandemic.
You really did.
Yeah, in the Last of US TV show. Yeah, the Final Humans.
Oh god, I love that. I think it's It's also so cool that, like we have known each other for kind of all of those chapters, and so, you know, often when people are like I never imagined I could write a book. I never imagined that I would end up here like and it's easy to think, O, well, assurely that's not true. But you guys, we have audio records of you actually saying those things, like I have no idea where I'm going to end up in a few years, like pre pandemic versions or mid pandemic versions
of yourselves to compare to. And now this has come out so can you first tell us how you guys connected and then how that develops into, oh my god, we're going to write a book together. Was it just that shared passion for the same things?
Yeah, definitely pretty much. Yeah, so I guess we kind of connected. We did a issue of mental health when during the pandemic. I think the cover guy that we had lined up was Robbie Williams.
And a close second to Kieran Kennedy.
But then the world wasn't in a really like Robbie Williams life kind of place. Yeah, rocked a kind of buy it happened at that time, so we were like, cool, we actually want to do an issue dedicated to frontline workers. I think our digital team had worked with Kieran before, so we kind of knew Kieran, and then we knew that he was doing essential work in hospitals during the I guess the peak of the pandemic. So we kind
of got him along to a studio. We were like, cool, well, we can't have hair and makeup because pandemic.
We can't.
It's just you and the photographer because pandemic. Can you please not talk to each other, touch each other near each other? So Anyway, we shot this cover and just think and it was one of a few magazines kind of did it. But I feel like we were kind of one of the first ones, even kind of globally to kind of do this issue dedicated to kind of frontline workers. And it's probably one of my favorite issues just in.
Terms of meaning.
But then it kind of took on more meaning because we obviously kept in touch after that issue and became friends. And it was funny the way we kept in touch because obviously Kieren was in Melbourne Mega Lockdown. I was in Sydney super carefree. But we would keep calling each other, and you know, what we would talk about were our frustrations with the state of men's health, in particular mental health.
But you know, just I guess the lags in terms of information for available information from there and the way that information was being delivered. You know, I feel men and women consume information quite differently, and I just felt like it wasn't well, we felt like it wasn't a conversation that people were having. It was more do this, do this, do this, and it wasn't resonating with men. We're tricky eggs to crack, you know, and then.
Well, and I think as well, like.
We're especially the evolving man if well, you know, throw that in there. I think, you know, Scotty and I would talk so much about, especially with his work with men's health, and you know, some of the dabbling I'd done, and obviously fitness work a lot side medicine and all of that. We were sort of talking about this, you know, this like juxtaposition between these different things that men were or could be or should be in terms of the focus on the abs and the biceps versus the mental health.
And you know, I think we just really all that coming together and needing to talk about kind of other aspects of men's health, you know that we're out in the media other than just the It's also it's such a good time to have this chat because you know, we were saying we kind of the mental health conversation has been gaining momentum for the last you know, seven to ten years. We had the me Too reckoning, which
was way over due. Then obviously the pandemic happened, which everyone experience, you know, male, female or whatever.
But there was a lot of.
Rhetoric kind of around the last couple of years, especially I heard when I was working in mentell saying, Oh, it's a really tough time to be a man, and like, it's not. We've had our But I think what people mean by that is it's a confusing time because they don't know what the right thing, they don't know who
they should be. But I guess the way that we flip that on its head, or the way that we looked at it was like, this is actually the most exciting time because all these reckonings are over due, you know, like we're being called out for bad behavior. We've been given this blank slate, so let's do it right, Let's do it in a healthy way, and let's reclaim masculinity
and dismantle that toxic masculinity. And you know, it actually is the best time to be a man because we're in this position where we've been offered a blank slate and we can do it properly and respectfully to ourselves and the world around us. So that was kind of where we went. What was the question, how are you?
What did you have for breakfast?
Wow?
Oh yeah, duo monologue.
But I think this is why I've always found you guys just so fascinating and powerful to chat to about these things because it is so easy for you guys to just start talking about literally why it is so important to have these conversations right now, why it's so important to have them. Especially, I think for both of
you it's always been even more powerful. And I've loved our conversations personally because you both straddle these worlds of intense masculinity and this kind of new softness and ability to discuss mental health openly and not seeing you know,
you can have both conversations. You both have like really strong connections in sport and exercise and fitness, and you know, one of the things I love that you say very early in the book is that, like aesthetics do not make it a man, but you've both lived in worlds and understand worlds where that is a very high value. There is a very high value place in magazines and editorial and covers of men's glossy, you know, covers of
men's health. And then Kieran, you've done modeling, you've done bodybuilding, and you have been a cover guy yourself. So I think it's more powerful when it comes from you because you're not dismissing those things. You guys are saying our work involves these values. We know there has been traditionally a value on just aesthetics and abs and masculinity and blowkeiness, and you can do that chat, but you can also
kind of have these new conversations. And I think it's that versatility that makes you guys easier to listen to and a lot more powerful because guys who are kind of in touch more with their blokey side and haven't opened up yet too, it's okay to have a weakness and you know, talk about mental health and struggles. They go, oh, but those guys are also like me, you know, it's they can talk that talk as well. Am I making sense?
You know me?
No, absolutely, And this just fires both of us up so much because that's like the just I think the crux of what we're so passionate about and what we wanted to put across in the book. It's sort of
men and women. But I think for a long time, especially men, you know, it's sort of boxes or silos where it's kind of like, okay, well, if you're a man and you go to the gym and you want to work out or you're doing bodybuilding, just as an example, then that means that you are these things, but you're not those things, and vice versa.
You know.
So I think it's as you say, and far too humbling to say that we or that I represent that and the personal lives thereah, But like I think for us feeling that in our own lives in terms of, like you say, loving sport and fitness and the gym, but also loving a good old you know, deeper meaningful or chatting about feelings and not being afraid of that
side of things. You know, that was something that we wanted to bring across with medical knowledge and bring into the book and let men know that sort of they can step into as well. It's not about choosing or saying in one silo. It's about knowing you can be a man and you're still a man as well as you know, stepping into some of these other things that for a long time men have been made to feel like they can't be your show.
M Well, I think like you've just done it so brilliantly because the book is such a like it's not too heavy on the science and in a way that
it's intimidating or overwhelming. You kind of go from like the full science of exercise and nutrition like those basics, to like blue power aid to treat hangovers, to meditation, to then the psychology of online dating and attachment styles, Like it really covers every part of life, from yeah, the really intense, hard hitting science to just like the anecdotal conversational like these are the you know, silly hangover
tips we have for dudes. Like, I just love that you're able to really like, even as a woman reading this, I was like, I understand Nick a lot more because you've kind of covered like this is a manual for everyone to understand men. And I had like heaps of epiphany moments about ways that he responds to certain things. That is not how I respond to certain things. It's just so broad in the way that you cover so
many things at so many different levels of intensity. For you guys, I think one of my favorite things to ask new authors is like, what were the hardest bits for you to cover? And what were your favorite bits to cover?
So cliche, the hardest were the favorites.
It was all rewarding, right, But I think the hardest bits were So there were some bits like and I think this is kind of like what we tried to do in the book is like there are certain bits where we're super honest, like, for example, a plant based eating chapter.
You know, I am quite honest with how I've tried.
It and failed spectacularly, but I have seen benefits, and I think it was those were kind of fun ones to write because it was like maybe things that going into this we knew that we wanted to write about and include because there's obviously research and evidence based behind these, but maybe they weren't things.
We were already incorporating. Meditation is another one.
You know, I have this weird relationship with meditation where I now, as a result of writing this.
Book, love it, but I have hated it, like I.
Will be honest, it makes me very mad, but I come to appreciate it, and you know, and it's just I think as well. The thing with the manual is there are chapters. It's obviously broken down by the body, the fuel, the mind, and the fields, and there might be certain chapters within those that you feel, as a man you have a grasp of, but even reading them, you get, like what you said in relation to Nick, you get a perspective of maybe someone that's at a
different stage in that chapter to you are. So whilst it's very much a manual for the individual, still reading those chapters that you think you have an understanding of it helps you maybe relate to people that are maybe just starting off in that. So it's also for the men in your life and around you, which is another chapter we talk about. Is you know that's great for the health is kind of looking after your community and those around you.
I think it's really cool. How like in both like the intro and the conclusion, but also kind of weave throughout is the idea that masculinity started as like a defined term. It was like this one concept that had a dictionary definition. You're really inviting people to like find their own balance and definition because everyone will end up at a different level. And that's okay. And that's the same with everything, Like even it's not a judgmental book.
It's not like you need to be more soft and you need to be more masculine and you need to have kind of all this balance. It's like it's okay if you're a little bit more, you know, a little bit less open to sensitivity. You don't have to be all the feels all the time. Like your balance could be a little bit different if you're aware that that's where you sit and kind of like that it's embracing everyone's levels and you're just figuring out what works for you.
It's interesting, isn't it.
Like there's that Bill Bauman quote, the founder of Nike, and it's if you have a body, you're an athlete. Well, it's pretty much the same. Like if you identify as
a man, then how you are is masculine. Is masculinity, you know, And that's kind of what we really wanted to go back to, is like this is a great guide book of options and how to healthy and how to be happy, but ultimately masculinity is right for the divining Yeah, and that was one of my favorite parts of writing it and seeing it come, you.
Know, to what it is now.
Actually was just seeing as we wrote it this constant kind of like weaving back between chapters, in between parts of the book. And obviously we've separated out, like Scotty said, into you know, the body, the feels, the mind, and there's different chapters within those silos as well, but you know, it's just sort of seeing that this is just it's just a melting pot and everything relates back to everything else.
It's the chapter about sexuality and identity, you know, and seeing how that relates back to the chapter on anxiety, or the chapter on loneliness and connection. It's, you know, seeing how they all kind of connected as we wrote. It was one of my favorite sort of things about the process because because it just shows exactly as you just said here that it's it's not about one way
of defining it. It's just this the gold melting pot of throwing that you feel aligned with you most as a man, or that you might need to work on them a little bit more, or that you're feeling pretty good about or not so good about in certain ways. And yeah, for me, that was one of the and the twist at the end, yeah shocked.
I fell off my chair. I was like, holy shit, balls.
Like a medical mystery that we can ourselves.
Yes, we are the main characters in our own story who done it. But I also think it's really cool how like, as you said, you link things from all areas of life and don't shy away from a like anecdotal evidence that really you both get very vulnerable in lots of parts where you move from the science to like even in a different font you kind of come in with your own story, but you cover things that are you know, still like quite stigmatized, like illicit drugs, steroids,
Like dudes don't talk about steroids. But body image is possibly even bigger for men because it's not ventilated as much as it is for women, like and we've spoken about that in both of our episodes. I love that you guys hit those things really head on because it is something that most guys think about, they have these conversations. And I like that you've kind of covered everything and linked it back to well, this is actually related to your mood, This is related to the feelds, even though
it's actually starts as a visual thing. Like everything connects, and I think you've done that brilliantly to dish them behind the sceneses dirt. Is there anything that you guys disagreed on because you wrote it together and I know you kind of took turns with different chapters and then had to marry it all to have one tone. Was there anything that you were like that you fought over?
Good question, Actually think that there was no.
I'm trying to like, I want to give you some time. I think I even like remember, like we.
Very like.
We were like I remember when we got the book deal and we were like, oh, we're going to go to like cafes in New York and write and go on writing retreats. And we actually did go on a writing retreat the first thing. So we went away to Kangaroo Valley like no reception. We just spent like three days planning, and I literally think we were like, oh, what about this chapter? And we were like, Oh, that's the idea, Let's go do a work. And then we would come back and we'd be like, Okay, what about
a chapter on this. Oh brilliant, let's go like do Like it was just the most cliche helpful thing you've ever seen, but it like was so I just think everything was kind of easy, and one of us would have an idea and we would say what about this? And there were some things actually that didn't work and we were like, cool, why don't we pull back there? And then the other one would just be like, you know what, spot on? And I don't know, I feel like maybe we just kind of have that we were
just in sync the whole way through. Where is I mean we kind of have I guess two half brains and between us, we have one I don't know, I.
Don't know how we has three quarters and I have.
A quarter and I just but it just like we were like it was almost like bouncing ideas off ourselves, you know. And I think we were just so before, during, and after just so on in terms of that holistic kind of we want this to be all parts of the melting pot, and it just it did kind of come together in terms of what we included and how, and I think from that stage everything we kind of agreed on and it was almost maybe like ridiculously too easy and how sink we in sync?
We were we kind of would you know, we'd.
Come up with a chapter idea and then celebrate with the workout, and we'd come up we'd be like, oh, what about this idea for a chapter? Oh brilliant, cool, Like let's go get a smoothie. Like yeah, it was. It was overly productive on a very rapid timescale. But it was also super cliche in terms of the health retreat, you know, like we were saying just saying before, I think we have two half brains and together we are a full brain.
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You guys have done such an amazing job, particularly at writing it together, and then you know the tone of the book. You can't actually tell who's written each part except for your own anecdotal stories and one of them, which only as much as you guys are comfortable to talk about in There's a beautiful quote. You mentioned one, but there was another one that I wrote down from Alan Down's contentment is created when our behavior is consistent
with our values. And I think one of the kind of common themes of this show is that happiness only really emerges for people once they start coming back into line with the things that they really love, that they're really passionate about. They stop kind of making decisions based on external definitions societal values, what they think they should do, other people's pathways, and it kind of causes illness and unhappiness when you aren't living in line with you know,
who you're supposed to be. And then the real magic happens when people take big jumps in their life, often
into discomfort, and become who they really are. So, Scott, you mentioned that quote in relation to you coming out recently at the age of thirty two, which is quite late relatively There is no timeline for life, but is you know, relatively late to kind of realize that yourself to have even you said that it was the first time you'd even set the sentence to yourself and I think that's a huge part of redefining sexuality, masculinity, identity
all in different ways. That covers so many topics, And you really open up in this particular chapter about that. I haven't spoken to you since then, so and you wrote a beautiful editor's letter in Men's Health kind of really speaking about it for the first time. What has that been like for you in terms of in the context of that quote and finding contentment in realizing a big part of yourself that you didn't know.
Yeah, well, it's been a journey of which Kiaran has been along for the ride. I think it got to a point for me in twenty twenty where kind of late twenty nineteen I recognized it within myself and I was like cool, just because I'm a very kind of, like I guess, pragmatic kind of person, I was like cool.
Twenty twenty news resolution, deal with that in the new year, deal with that.
Yeah, to sell no to self bega this year.
And knew me to a whole new level.
Yeah. See again.
Anyway, obviously had a lot of time, like we all did in twenty twenty for self reflection, but I think there was a point in twenty twenty where Men's Health. We got sold, and then the company that bought us shut us down on the first day that they bought us.
I did not handle it very well. Things were thrown that first week.
Was just because I had tied my whole personality up to my job and this world of mental health and on reflection and having time. It was kind of one of those things where I'd made that my whole identity and I hadn't actually taken on board a lot of the stuff that we were reporting on or the advice that we were giving men. So I kind of went back through kind of issues we'd worked on and kind of what we were I guess encouraging men to do. And yeah, I hadn't been really taking that advice on myself.
So reconciled it. I came out to my family pretty quickly, and yeah, I guess just kind of allowed myself the space to be. The mind is a really funny thing. I had never given myself that as an option for myself. Internally, I knew I wasn't happy, but I kind of never addressed it and I never looked for a reason why, and I never let that be option. So just allowing myself the space to explore that was really healthy and healing, and I throw much less.
I get thrown at me, and.
I think, just you know, there's a lot of like a I don't know, it's it's fear, and it's it's a lot of it is just from yourself. And I think, you know, one of the best paces of advice that I've ever been given. And I wish I could like attribute it to someone, but it might even be Brenee Brown, but it's you know, when talking to yourself, think, you know, how would you talk to someone that you know or you care about or your friend and do you talk
to yourself the same way? And that for me was a real like light change moment because I was just talking to myself like I would never even talk to my worst enemy.
The way I was talking with myself.
It was disgusting and why, Like I mean, I am forced to spend all day with me, so I'm as well be nice to me and make friends with myself, you know, So that really like refrained how I think. And you know, I think just approaching myself with kindness and forgiveness and allowances just really helped.
Yeah, I think it's so interesting you said that you'd never even considered it as an option, because I think one of the things that people who haven't had a similar experience would like my initial reaction is kind of like, I can't imagine such a big part of my identity being suppressed for so long, But then you saying it wasn't even suppressed, like it wasn't even there, Like I
just didn't even let my brain acknowledge it. That's how deep the kind of level of your definition of who you were was impacted that you didn't even think about it, let alone think about it, acknowledge it, then suppress it. It wasn't even that far. Like that's just mind blowing to me.
Brain is a powerful thing, but it can be powerful in like a negative way as well. And I kind of I still probably haven't fully unpacked that time psychologically, So when Karan is in the country, I will give him a call and because some sestions, but you know, it just it is weird, like you just I don't know. I was just able to compartmentalize that part of my life.
And you know, I don't date because I'm busy, and I don't necessarily regret that decision because I've had a great career and kind of got to where where I got to, and I have loved my career. I don't know that I would have got that far if I was an openly out man. I'm just being honest. Who knows, But it all kind of worked out well. I'm happy now and yeah, and such like a I don't know, just in terms of how things came around as well.
And you know, obviously no secret either in terms of you know, my sexuality and partner now and things, and you know, just amazing kind of over the last few years of us writing this book together and talking about these things and being passionate about the science and medicine of it, almost sort of us journeying through that at
the same time in our personal lives as well. And obviously even if my store journey is a little different to Scotti's in terms of you know, men, women, sexuality, identity and things, but I think that process of coming to terms with them more within yourself, coming to terms with kind of other people knowing, or that process of coming out or you being more open and out there with things. It's yeah, you know, it's it's been this amazing process of kind of personal growth in journeys as
the book has also grown and journeyed as well. I think I remember our publisher very early on saying, like, you guys are writing a book and writing about things for the modern man that you're both stepping into going through yourselves or representing yourselves personally, which it's far too humbling and for me because I was like, yeah it was. I just felt like a hurricane of chaos. So I don't know what I'm doing, but it was interesting. I mean,
even like sexuality side. So the beginning of this year, I ended up in hospital and I had that blood like clots in my lungs. And it was interesting though, like looking back because if we you know, writing this book, it made us very aware of like how we live our lives and kind of living healthy and you know, it was a reminders to keep active every day and
eat well and you know, be mindful. And it's funny looking back as we were writing that we were doing those things and I was having We've been talking about it, like the six months prior to trouble breathing, and I was like, this is really weird, but keep living your best life and like look after yourself and that sort of thing, and I feel like we were like inadvertently, I was like preventative medicine just from lessons from this book, which ultimately could have saved it from being a worse
kind of situation. So, you know, sexuality, going through those journeys together physically kind of having like health issues.
It really was.
I mean it's so cliche that the lessons from this book really kind of have helped us as authors. Actually I've actually been a great manual for health and happiness. Yeah, And hopefully that comes across from the book, as you says, there are with the anecdotes and things that we've put in, you know, just about our personal journeys and lives and whether it's plant, that's diet, sexuality or whatever it is.
I think us kind of, as you say, growing with the book and having an opportunity to put parts of ourselves in there to make it hopefully more.
Real and relatable and you know, textbook like. I think that's been a beautiful part of it too.
I think that comes across so strongly. And I heard someone say I can't even remember who it was again, I wish I could attribute it correctly, But someone say that you often write the book that you need. And I think it's like when I was writing my book, it's I can't explain to someone who hasn't sat down to do it how cathartic it is to actually sit down and write everything you think and know and think
you know and want to know and don't know. It's like trying to body yourself in a permanent kind of record, and that teaches you so much. It teaches you where the gaps are, It teaches you where the strengths are. You realize you did know a lot of stuff where you were stronger than your thought. But it also teaches you things that you're maybe still in the process of and kind of helps you work through those to actually sort through those thoughts, to put them into a sentence
that someone else could understand. And I think you can see that you guys are doing that. But it's also I just I think conversations on coming out and sexuality and any other big changes in identity can be really difficult because other people tend to make a really big deal about it because it is a big an ounce. Man, it's a big change, but other people kind of say, look, it's the least interesting thing about me, Like why is
this the only thing you're focusing on? So I get the difficulty and like it's so big, but it's also
like really not a big deal. But I just have to commend you both because I really think that so many people who had made it to your age or stage in life, life or careers, particularly in the area of men's health and masculinity, might not have been so brave in acknowledging it to yourselves first, but then coming out publicly with it in a way that I think helps so many and reassure so many other people, not necessarily just in sexuality, but that it's okay at any
time in your life to realize something about yourself and come out with that it's actually okay. It's scary, it's a big change. You'll have a reaction from society and people and your friends and family, positive, negative, whatever it may be. But it's extraordinary that you guys have shared that so openly, I think, in a book or otherwise. And it's been really wonderful to follow both of your journeys around that because I'm sure it is inspiring a lot of other people, men and women.
Thank you, Matte, And I think just as you say, I think it doesn't just have to pertain to sexuality or gender. You know, it's been us also writing little bits in the book about, you know, how we've had periods where we struggled with anxiety or mental health or loneliness,
for example. And I think that as you say, that idea of knowing that, especially as a man, which has been so narrowed and pressed I think for so many decades and centuries in terms of what you show and who you are and who you aren't stepping into that ethos now of it's okay to be any of those things and to share any of those things, and to sort of step into them with kindness to yourself and vulnerability.
And you know, whether it's where.
You're at and your fitness journey or where you're at with your diet or not so much diet, or sexuality, relationships, mental health. I think one of the things we wanted to put across in the book was that it's okay to be at any stage that you're at with those things, and it's also okay to define yourself and your masculinity within any of those things. Wow, doesn't have to be perfect, that's for or I am definitely an exemple for that, but also like who wants perfect?
Yeah, boring, boring, boring bors veil life, it.
Was perfect, the book would be pretty boring or age?
Have either of you just while we're sort of, you know, covering such a fresh experience for both of you, have either of you had, and also because so much of the book is about kind of letting go of fear of judgment and accepting that there will be really positive, embraceive reactions and sometimes maybe not necessarily that kind of reaction to ways that you choose to live your life.
Have either of you had trouble or challenges in people's reactions since you've come out, as people's behavior towards you changed, has anything become different in a way that's challenged you, or that you might say as kind of a temperature check on men's healthy in general, that you really want to kind of acknowledge.
I think not on me personally.
I think I've become more aware of conversations in wider society on both sides. And I was actually thinking about this this morning, that it's kind of weird to have people dissect your life on your behalf, and I was like, especially when they're against it, And I don't know, I've always, you know, in any aspect, just kind of believed like, well, if people are happy and it's not impacting you in a negative way, it's kind of like not your business.
Like you know, it's got nothing to do with you.
Yeah, And I just think it's just funny.
I mean, like you use the US as the easy example, but I guess kind of the Internet at large, there there's a very strong divide between two sides, and both sides are kind of just talking into a void and no one's actually listening. It's not a conversation. It's like a yelling man, and kind of both sides are like in the wrong in the way that they're approaching that, And you know, you might. I just think that's where this is, this kind of whole divide and divisive kind
of rhetoric. It's always existed. People have different opinions, and that's beautiful about humans. If we all have the same opinions, there would be no conversations, there would be no we wouldn't be able to work on each other and kind of improve. But just the way I think we're approaching it, it's like cool, you don't agree with me like dismissed, not even listening. You know, like you can be friends
with people that have different political views to you. We have to work with people that don't agree on everything with us. We're going to part of living is coming across people who are different us, and so thank god, thank God for that, and there has to be a tolerance and like, who knows, there might be aspects of that person or their opinion that resonate with you and you can grow.
I don't know that that's view based. I don't have the it. When I do, I'll put them into it.
And yeah, no, and same for me, like I think, you know, and it sounds so corny, but like, especially on reflection now, for me, the whole journey and things has just shown, you know, obviously some not so good sides to humanity and people's opinions and views, but for the most part, it's shown I think the just the beauty of that kind of vulnerability and connection and whether it's been family, friends, colleagues, just that just that sense of you know, support has just been especially initially.
Really quite overwhelming.
But yeah, I think, as Scotty sort of mentioned before, I think one of the interesting things has been sort of stepping into Okay, well this is me and this is my life, and you know, for example, being a little bit more open in terms of this is my partner and having people see that on more of a public sort of social media presence type scale. It's been sort of this sense of buffering with but I'm still me and that is an important part of me. But it's as you said before, Sarah's not the only part
of me. And I think a lot of people, whether it's mental health, sexuality, or whatever it is, I think some of these things you can get made to sort of feel at times.
Are the all of you, and that's kind of all.
Your identity is and all you want to hear feedback on and all you want to talk about. Yeah, so kind of buffering that within you know, myself, but buffering it in terms of the information we wanted to put across in the book, representing for younger men or men going through some of the same kind of things.
Yeah, that's been an interesting part of the journey.
Well, you guys have just shared so generously on you know, really how so many areas of your life have felt and how you have changed and the journey even though I hate using that word, but really it's the only
appropriate word in so many of these situations. If you guys had say one thing, like if you knew that you had someone's attention for like thirty seconds to just explain what you want people to know about ment health that they don't already know, or a topic that you think is the most important for young men to be talking about or everyone to be talking about in relation to, you know, the next generation of men, and the thing that you want people to get out of the book
the most, like what would it be? Is there a statistic that you came across in your research, or a concept or just something that you're sort of like, this is the essence of what I'm trying to get out there.
I mean, I think as per because I ramble and I'm far too for both based on the closity twenty seconds, I just think all of the stats, you know, a lot of them are alarmingly high. But the beauty of that for me, and one of the messages is that men, no matter where you're at and what age you are, you know, men are not alone in dealing with some of these things, struggling with some of these things, feeling
some of these things, body image, mental health, sexuality. You know you're not alone, so I think for me that's a big one. Also, counting down using your pinky is really hard. I don't know if you've ever tried to hold those.
Two fingers up.
Is that in the body section? If you can't use your pinky to count, it doesn't make you less of a.
Man, actually makes you more masculine.
Wow.
Yeah, Scotty, what about you? Is there sort of an overarching thing that you sort of you know when you have someone's ear, the elevator pitch of like ment. Healthy is so important, This book is so important. These are the things that are challenging us. What would it be?
Yeah, I think it would be to not be overwhelmed by all the massive information and options and opportunity out there, but rather to reframe that as a positive and that you can really take control of your own health and own masculinity and make it your own and own it. WHOA, Now I didn't want to count with my pinky again.
In my remaining time, I'm going to sing the chorus to crul Summer.
I think another thing as well, is you guys, having written this book, people will now approach you, and people probably already approached you both Kieran, especially being a qualified psychiatrist, and Scottie, having been at the Helm of Mental Health Community College graduate a finger counter Wow barely, but I feel like people would often come to you as the experts, like you no longer have issues in mental health. You guys are totally fine in every area. You don't have anxiety.
You kind of all sort of you figured out who you are. Like, are there any areas where you guys still feel like it's your biggest challenge in mentalth Like you know, what's your biggest challenges that you still find difficult or that you still struggle with?
Well, I think that's what's beautiful about health is it's kind of like a continuum. It's not something it's not kind of like a journey and you're like, cool, I am health.
I made it.
It's very much ongoing and it's maintenance, and you know, it's like things pop up, like I said, like with my lungs, Like I didn't expect that to be going on inside of me, but I was living in a way that I could like counteract that if it did happen. I think, especially in mental health, you know, things are
going to happen in our lives that are unexpected. No one expected the pandemic, But just kind of having these tools from a manual of sorts, if you will, will really help you kind of be ready for those things to pop up. But for me, my weightness at the moment is nutrition, Like hands down. We probably even talked about that three years ago and I was like, I'm
going to learn to cook this year. Nutrition for me, I'm I'm terrible with my nutrition and it's something that I really need to get on top of.
Statute, I'll let you know next June. Next June when we arise again.
I seriously I can't do any other episodes in June ever. Again. It has to be every year, so.
Cut Sarah, No, And I think for me, I don't know, it's been it's been such a whirlwind of the last five to ten thirty five years of life, but like it's been so interesting. I think I've talked even on the podcast with you, Sarah about the younger Kieran being so perfectionistic, so polished, so driven on sort of achievement, And you know, I think medical school and being a doctor really kind of pushes.
Is that in a lot of ways.
So I think, you know, still leaning into the sense of vulnerability and even as a doctor, kind of stepping down off that this is the doctor, this is the patient, is a bit of.
A bridge in between, you know, we you don't share your personal life, share your personal story.
I think, you know, for me, that's been a beautiful part of the book as well as getting to do that, you know, And so I think.
For me it's just still stepping into oka.
Say, just life evolving and looking at different parts and you know, giving perfectionism the.
Boot, which is I'm so hard. I mean, I'm perfect, and I don't I mean, I can't live off it, but some people need to. I mean God. Well, very
last question for you, guys. I could talk to you forever, and I really like, I struggle when I love a book so much that really in the episode, I just want to read the whole book to people, like it's an audio book Welcome to the Manual anyway, But very last question for you guys, how would you at this point in your life versus maybe last time we chatted or you know, pre pandemic or whatever, what is happiness
for you? Like, even something as simple as Netflix and pj's and whatever, or just a good chat with friends, like what is your happiness or what is your yay?
Right now I can answer that because I'm going through this phase where I'm obsessed with Have you heard of I think it's called shinrien yoku in Japanese, but it's forest bathing, So it's obsessed. So I will like frequently, It'll be like Friday morning and I'll like jump on and get a cabin out in the woods and just spend the weekend if I have a free weekend. So basically, for I guess people listening forest bathing is spending time in nature for I guess mental health purposes, healing purposes.
There's research that NASA has done to show that people recovering from surgery if they have plants in their hospital room recover faster than people without. I mean, governments have taken notice of this research. So in Canada, if you mental health, doctors, I think can prescribe National park passes as medicine, so you know, you can have a whole bunch of mental health ailments and your practitioner can prescribe
you a National Parks part. In Japan, they have special walks and parks set up for forest bathing, and I just think it's brilliant, Like it's very recent in history, you know, like humans have been on this earth for millions and millions of years, and it's very recent that we've been sitting in offices, like the last fifty years that we've been sitting doing this, and so it's kind of not what we're used to anyway. I'm obsessed with that. That is how I get my a. I have one
more as well, but I'll let you get first. I mean, I don't know how me saying eating is because that was incredible and I'm like, oh shit, how do I book a cabin now?
But yeah, I don't know.
I think, you know, happiness for me right now so many things. But I think something that I've been just loving lately is just slowing and stopping and just you know, recognizing happiness in just those little simple even when we think about them more, look at them kind of the
nal basic moments, you know. And I think for me, it's often with people that you love, and whether that's a family member, a great mate, partner, no, it's little moments like coffee in the morning with partner or just reading, you know, having a good meal.
Yeah.
For me, I thinks at the moment is just those little little chances in the day to just stop and.
Be grateful for I love how Japanese culture has a word for forest bathing and a word for flower gazing, Like there's an actual word for the activity of appreciating small things. And that book ikey guy about like the Joy of Living we gave each other.
Yeah. Stop. It's another thing we do is we send each other.
Yes, like if we're like I read this, Actually I won't see you because you won't be in the country for another six months, so I'm just going to send it to you.
But read this and then we'll talk about it.
Oh my god, you have like a two person book club.
Yeah.
So my other thing that gives me yay is doctor Kieren and his stethoscope. We were just talking about this before too, So this.
Is like a joint.
How many therapists have you been to that have used a stethoscope on you? But every social media post, oh may he is posing with his stethoscope. It's a prop guys, and it brings me ya. This is very offensive to the idea of mental health. Look it's mind and body, so like, I don't know how to use it, but liked it. You google doctor Kieren Kennedy. The first picture is like one with him holding ascope.
It's like the stethoscope. It needs its own name.
Yeah, stetho, Like oh, dusted them off to gl media.
It's like, I am a doctor, a doctor. It's like you know Ross in Friends, how is appent? Was like, no, I'm a doctor, a doctor. It's like, that's what.
Mean equivalent would be like if I put on like my reporter's hat and I was like, Scott Henderson, I'm gonna blow this wide.
Yeah, oh my god. Oh you guys, this was such a delight. I'm so so excited for you both doing this together, bringing such an important and profound and just enjoyable. It was such a delightful read. So so excited for this to come out into the world. Where can we get it?
We'reever all good book books asault everywhere and anywhere.
I think it's Yeah, it's in like all major books stores, department stores, Big w Kmart, Target online.
Ebook audiobook with our dulcet tones.
You guys did the audiobook?
Ye?
The audio book? Yeah?
Nice? I will make sure to put the links in the show notes so that everyone can grab their copy. Guys, The Manual by doctor Kieran Kennedy and Scott Henderson. It is literally a bible on modern masculinity and redefining our identity and approach to young men, old men, every man in society. And I'm so grateful for you guys for your time.
Thanks Sarah, Thank you, Sarah, I appreciate it.
I'll see you next June.
Have a good sleep.
I love these guys so much. I think you can probably hear how much fun we were all having in this one. I was meant to recording person in Sydney, but sadly we didn't end up being able to make it happen. But I just enjoyed it so much and always come away from chats with these two separately and together now it turns out, with so much to reflect on. Please do grab a copy of their amazing book. I don't think there's anyone out there who couldn't benefit in
some way from its depth and honesty. I've popped the link to the Manual in the show notes, and of course please show them some yeghborhood love to thank them for so generously giving us their time tagging at Scotti Hindo and at Kieran Kennedy. Don't forget to send over your this ya or that ya questions for next week's yeas of our lives as well. And I was going to mention that we had lined up our next Melbourne Yeahborhood event, but it sold out on the first day,
which I was not expecting. But because of that, we are already planning more and as you know, we had the next interstate events in the background planning as well. So I'm sorry that was Paul just sighing. I mean, honestly, that dog anyway. I love how excited you guys get about in real life catch ups and I can't wait for the next one. In the meantime, I hope you're all having an amazing week and are seizing your yea
Not much